One TORAH (Law) for Israelite AND grafted-in Gentile?

[middletree]

Originally Posted by Gandalf

Mostly, except that I don't think Jewish ethnicity or Israelite nationality have anything to do with why we aren't under the Law. Before Jesus, Gentiles who came to believe in God and wanted to worship Him were welcome to do so ...

I could see that. IO mainly mentioned nationality to point to one of the original reasons for the Law of Moses: the Israelites had no law, because they had no nation for the last 400 years. The law served a purpose of giving them something to start a nation with.

[Valpo]

The Law was not given just to start a nation. The Law was given to set a part Israel from the nations. God is clear throughout scripture that His aim is not for Israel to be like another nation, He wants more, so He sets them a part with the covenant and the Law which is anti-pagan. And again the giving of the Law is all wrapped up in the LORD identifying that He is the God who delivered them out from Egypt and that is where their identity is wrapped up into.

[middletree]

Originally Posted by Valpo

The Law was not given just to start a nation.

Originally Posted by middletree

one of the original reasons

::

[Messianic one]

Originally Posted by middletree

I'm not discrediting the Ten. I'm saying they don't apply to me as a non-Israelite. I'm saying the Ten are just part of the 600+ other laws given to a people who had no laws, and no idea how to administer or to make laws, because they were coming out of 400 years of captivity.

I'm saying they were given to one group of people at one period in time. I am not under Romanian law, either. Or British law, or Australian law. They are certainly creditable and valid laws. But I am not under any of them.

Lastly, if you desire to be a citizen of the Malkut Elohim (Kingdom of Elohim) you must be willing to abide by the laws of the Kingdom. I wouldn't move to Brazil, then say "well, I and not Brazilian, so your law does not apply to me".

YHWH's law is "Jewish Law" it’s HIS law, they are HIS commandments and to live in HIS Kingdom requires that we live by HIS rules. They are not "Just for Jews" He makes that perfectly clear:


Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Numbers 15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance forever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before YHWH

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of all mankind" Ecclesiastes 12:13

"In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah, the Prophets, and the writings; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Torah until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

"We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commandments. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys His Word, The love of Elohim is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Yahshua did" 1st John 2:3-6

Hint - He obeyed the Torah (we must walk as He did).

Those who keep the commandments of Elohim, shall live in Him, and He in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. 1st John 3:24

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of Elohim, and have the testimony of Yahshua h'Mashiyach. Revelation 12:17.

Here is the patience of the Kodeshim (Set apart / Saints): here are they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahshua. Revelation 14:12.

Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14


What I find interesting is that I am on the receiving end of attacks here, not because I am trying to contradict His word... I get attacked for nothing more than posting the scriptures (which everyone here claims to trust) actually say.

I am attacked for telling people to obey Elohim. Like I am the deceiver. Which is strange because from time eternal, the adversary is the one telling people NOT to obey YHWH.

I guess I am wrong, and the scriptures don't actually say what they say.

[lilmikey]

Your problem is that you are mixing the Law of Moses with the commandments of Jesus. It cannot work and will never work. God's laws precede the law given to Moses.

All God commands of us is love and obedience and that does not include not eating pork or certain types of animals, or wearing a specific type of clothing those things were done away with.

Peter himself argued with the Lord when God told him to kill and eat, Peter told the Lord that he was a Jew and that he couldn't.

In him their is no Jew or Greek read your Bible and maybe you'll know that.

You dont believe in grace. If you follow the Law then I guess you would be required to stone your children if they are disobedient

[Howlin' Wolf]

the law is summed up with one word....Love

[lilmikey]

Originally Posted by Howlin' Wolf

the law is summed up with one word....Love

yup. If you love him you will keep his commandments. Now if you'll excuse me I must go eat a bacon sandwich!!!

[middletree]

Originally Posted by Messianic one

Lastly, if you desire to be a citizen of the Malkut Elohim (Kingdom of Elohim) you must be willing to abide by the laws of the Kingdom. I wouldn't move to Brazil, then say "well, I and not Brazilian, so your law does not apply to me".
.

I am not in Brazil, and I am not an Israelite.

[lilmikey]

Originally Posted by middletree

I am not in Brazil, and I am not an Israelite.

pretty much

[onesawthelight]

It is all well and good to obey Jesus and keep God's commands. No one here has suggested we not follow God's rules.

The central point you seem to sidestep repeatedly is that we are not under law.

Romans 4:4-16

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham

Romans 5:15-21

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

It seems to me you think that the law needs to be followed to be saved. We are saved by grace...not law. The law points out sin...it has nothing to do with saving us. Instead of constantly pointing out that all need to follow the law...all of the law...it should be pointed out that the most important law is as Jason said....love. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And love your neighbor as yourself. All God's people...including the Jews will be saved by His grace...not by the law or their observation of it. If the only book of the bible you ever read was Romans...this is spelled out quite clearly.

[1Kiwi Gomer]

you seem to sidestep repeatedly is that we are living under laws everyday of your lives there are all sorts of laws you are living under so how can you say you are not under the law you want Gods grace but you don't want His Laws is what you are saying if you don't want to want to keep part of it.

[Gandalf]

Originally Posted by middletree

I am not in Brazil, and I am not an Israelite.

Even apart from that, the Law that the Judaizers want everyone to follow isn't fundamentally in force for those in God's Kingdom today, whether Jew or Gentile. Jewish believers are no more under the Law than Gentile believers. We're all equally saved by grace, through faith, and works under the law are worthless. That's not to say we shouldn't obey God - certainly, we should, and as we're sanctified we become people whose nature is to do so. But we've moved on from the Law just as a child moves on from the rules his parents set when it was young. The rules were good, and kept him out of trouble, but aren't sufficient for an adult: he must now make good choices on his own and set aside childish things, rather than merely taking the easy way out and following someone else's rules.

The Law served its purpose of illustrating our sinfulness very well. But Jesus has set us free from sin, and also from bondage to the Law. It would, then, be rather foolish indeed for us to put ourselves in slavery to it again. The entire book of Galatians and large portions of Romans and other books could hardly be more clear on this matter. But it's true even for Israelites (or Brazilians) these days.