kenneth copeland

[meak]

Originally Posted by bholdj

So, you believe meak, that if you, or any of us, see something we believe to be wrong, just leave it alone, right?

I mean, who cares if Mark Mcqwire, former slugger for the cardnials, has been medically proven to take steriods, i mean gosh its his choice, why should we bother ?

I agree, theres a time and a place for not bashing a fellow man. But there's also a time for dancing when the music starts.

no, i said "if you feel that strongly about it pray for the man". that is doing something...oh...unless you think your prayers are useless . i don't care what you say God did NOT call us to critique and bash. you judge by the fruit and then i guess it just depends on what the definition of fruit is...is it people coming to christ...then yes he is producing the fruit. the man has very good teachings, just because you don't agree with some of it doesn't mean he is completely full of lies. no one is 100% right about everything. when you and i get to heaven i'm sure there are going to be things that we were wrong about so why should kenneth copeland be any different. he hasn't preached any false doctrines that would send someone to hell...nothing i've heard anyway. when the man starts preaching that the only way to heaven is through satan then you can come on here and start talking about false teachings...but i say you guys are wrong on this one. he has done nothing to deserve the bashing he's getting on here.

[meak]

Originally Posted by ObiShawn

So, if I were a pastor of a church and secretly a pedophile, you'd be ok with that? I'm not saying that Copeland is a pedophile, just making a point that there is more to a person than their "claim" to be a Christian. But you appearently don't care because you are quick to defend the man when you have said yourself that you havne't heard these negative things about him.

those are two completely different issues. a pedophile would be someone that is living in sin and is not walking with God...so are you saying that copeland is living in sin and not walking with God? oh, right you said you weren't saying he was a pedophile well, i wasn't saying being a pedophile would be okay. i have never seen any evidence to believe kenneth copeland was living in sin or teaching false doctrines that will lead people to hell...if he starts that then i can understand your disgust with him. but he hasn't done any of that.

and yes, any time i have personally read a thread about a minister it has been nothing but negative talk about them being after money, being false prophets/teachers etc. which is the only reason i posted on this one because i'm tired of hearing nothing but negativity about people that are out there spreading the gospel. if the fruit is there how can you deny it?

[Gandalf]

Let's take a step back here, guys. People are saying Copeland has bad theology and teaches things that are not supported by Scripture. That is not the same as saying he's a pedophile, etc. We can accept him as a brother in Christ and at the same time say that what he's teaching is verifiably false, and should be refuted. God is gracious and will use the guy if he's willing to obey, even if he's very confused about theology. That doesn't mean we have to pretend he's correct, but we also can't go deck the guy just because we don't like what he says. Let's everyone calm down and not attack the guy personally, or each other.

As for why there are probably more threads about preachers with a negative tone than a positive one... people are just more likely to post about things they're upset about, and more likely to notice things that upset them. Maybe not the best, but it's human nature.

[bholdj]

Originally Posted by meak

when the man starts preaching that the only way to heaven is through satan then you can come on here and start talking about false teachings...

I agree, yet just cause i disagree with something, dosen't mean I think it's false . I disagree with how the Alabama football team is rated so far low in this years polls, that dosen't mean that I don't accept the reality that there number 35 in the top 50 teams in the country

[ObiShawn]

Originally Posted by meak

those are two completely different issues.

The pedophile anology, admitedly is not the best I could have used, but it isn't the "secret thing" that I was making the issue. You said,

Originally Posted by meak

all i care to know about you is Christ and him crucified.

And my point is there is more to a person that the fact that they claim to be a Christian. To ignore the other aspects of a person's life just because they say they carry around a Bible would be foolish. When setting standards for elders and deacons, Paul made some pretty specific statements that deals with other aspects of a Christian's life than seeing people get saved.

Originally Posted by meak

and yes, any time i have personally read a thread about a minister it has been nothing but negative talk about them being after money, being false prophets/teachers etc. which is the only reason i posted on this one because i'm tired of hearing nothing but negativity about people that are out there spreading the gospel. if the fruit is there how can you deny it?

I'm sorry about this, it would annoy me too. (I've been away for about a year, so I've been out of touch with the goings-on of this board). If I were hearing negative things about a person though, I wouldn't turn a blind eye to it, I would at least investigate for myself to see how valid the claims were. But that is a separate issue.

I know the point you are trying to make, "it doesn't matter which preacher gets mentioned, the memebrs of this board seem to have nothing good to say about him" (your words, not mine. Like I said, I've been away and cannot confirm or deny the point you are making).

If people have concrete reason to make such claims, then I believe it is called for. But if they are jumping on the bash-a-preacher bandwagon, then I am in complete agreement with you. Paul said in Philippians that there were people preaching the gospel out of sincerity and some for gain, but he didn't care because the Word was still being preached. You are right, if people are coming to the knowledge of God, this is a good thing. But if the teachings they get afterward are poor, then that doesn't do anybody any good.

[meak]

Originally Posted by ObiShawn

And my point is there is more to a person that the fact that they claim to be a Christian. To ignore the other aspects of a person's life just because they say they carry around a Bible would be foolish. When setting standards for elders and deacons, Paul made some pretty specific statements that deals with other aspects of a Christian's life than seeing people get saved.

understood but, i wasn't saying people claiming to be christians i'm talking true believers. i believe kenneth copeland is more than someone claiming to be a christian. i beleive he is a christian. if he has any doctrines that are odd (again i have never personally heard anything to alarm myself and i've heard a bit from him) it's nothing that is going to send anyone to hell for believing. and that's what i meant about "knowing nothing but Christ and him crucified." i feel that people get wrapped up in the small things...like so what if he believes you have to wear long sleeves or not, makeup or not, dresses or not etc...as long as he's preaching christ crucified and people are coming to christ then the other stuff doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by ObiShawn

I'm sorry about this, it would annoy me too. (I've been away for about a year, so I've been out of touch with the goings-on of this board). If I were hearing negative things about a person though, I wouldn't turn a blind eye to it, I would at least investigate for myself to see how valid the claims were. But that is a separate issue.

I know the point you are trying to make, "it doesn't matter which preacher gets mentioned, the memebrs of this board seem to have nothing good to say about him" (your words, not mine. Like I said, I've been away and cannot confirm or deny the point you are making).

If people have concrete reason to make such claims, then I believe it is called for. But if they are jumping on the bash-a-preacher bandwagon, then I am in complete agreement with you. Paul said in Philippians that there were people preaching the gospel out of sincerity and some for gain, but he didn't care because the Word was still being preached. You are right, if people are coming to the knowledge of God, this is a good thing. But if the teachings they get afterward are poor, then that doesn't do anybody any good

i agree, we should investigate things. like you pointed out i was only stating i was tired of the bashing. i know some about copeland and none of what i've heard from him has alarmed me.

[Yippy]

Originally Posted by meak

if the fruit is there how can you deny it?

I think that very often God blesses the heart of the seeker regardless of the one preaching. I've seen a man lead many people to Christ, but at home was very abusive to his wife and family. A local church ordained him, he had the backing of leadership who turned a blind eye to his family's misery, and he led missionary teams to Mexico...he seemed fruitful. Meanwhile, his wife's faith was seriously damaged and his children became very hardened to God's word (one son has suffered mentally). Someone asked me how God could bless his ministry while his family suffered immeasurably. I said that God didn't bless his ministry but blessed the people who sought Him. I've seen that happen a lot in the church.

I would also be careful how you define "fruit." Satan can "bless" too.

I do understand your frustration with negativity. LIke Gandalf said, we can discuss a man's theology without resorting to bashing (my interpretation ).

Originally Posted by Gandalf

As for why there are probably more threads about preachers with a negative tone than a positive one... people are just more likely to post about things they're upset about, and more likely to notice things that upset them. Maybe not the best, but it's human nature.

I was going to say the same thing...If it was a praise-about-a-preacher thread, it would go something like this: Yeah, he's awesome. He's awesome...Yeah, man, he's awesome...thread dies.


I have a brother who's very involved in the Word of Faith/prosperity camp as was I many, many years ago. For my own spiritual health, I'll leave the topic of Kenneth Copeland alone.

[meak]

Originally Posted by Yippy

I think that very often God blesses the heart of the seeker regardless of the one preaching. I've seen a man lead many people to Christ, but at home was very abusive to his wife and family. A local church ordained him, he had the backing of leadership who turned a blind eye to his family's misery, and he led missionary teams to Mexico...he seemed fruitful. Meanwhile, his wife's faith was seriously damaged and his children became very hardened to God's word (one son has suffered mentally). Someone asked me how God could bless his ministry while his family suffered immeasurably. I said that God didn't bless his ministry but blessed the people who sought Him. I've seen that happen a lot in the church.

okay, if the man was abusive to his family then that isn't the FRUIT of a christian, is it? i wasn't saying just the fruit of salvation but, the mans life as well. again, i've never heard anything about copeland being abusive to his family or adultry etc. and then comes his minsitry, i haven't heard anything that is horrible.

[shelleybeansMAN]

what ever happened to praying for our brothers and sisters?this is whats wrong with the church as a whole.lets believe what GOD said in HIS word and not some mans interpretation of it,speaking denominationally.we should pray for everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth,not our idea of the truth.

[middletree]

This is not a matter of a preacher who teaches something disputable, like losing salvation, which theologians have struggled with for centuries. This is a false teacher, whose teachings are harmful to thousands, maybe millions of followers. Jesus called out false teachers. Paul did. Heck, Paul even called Peter out on one thing, because what he was teaching was harmful. Copeland may have good intentions. He may not be trying to fleece anyone. But his teachings are anti-biblical, and they are affecting untold numbers of believers and seekers.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Originally Posted by middletree

This is not a matter of a preacher who teaches something disputable, like losing salvation, which theologians have struggled with for centuries. This is a false teacher, whose teachings are harmful to thousands, maybe millions of followers. Jesus called out false teachers. Paul did. Heck, Paul even called Peter out on one thing, because what he was teaching was harmful. Copeland may have good intentions. He may not be trying to fleece anyone. But his teachings are anti-biblical, and they are affecting untold numbers of believers and seekers.

pop goes postmodernsm. its so rampant here that it makes me sick

[Howlin' Wolf]

Originally Posted by meak

i agree, we should investigate things. like you pointed out i was only stating i was tired of the bashing. i know some about copeland and none of what i've heard from him has alarmed me.

what does that say about you?

[jrmitch]

Guys, this is actually a pretty important topic, but it goes much deeper than Copeland. In the sake of broadening it out I've started a new link on the "Word" section titled "Orthodoxy vs. Heresy".

Peace/Jim

[Howlin' Wolf]

Originally Posted by jrmitch

Guys, this is actually a pretty important topic, but it goes much deeper than Copeland. In the sake of broadening it out I've started a new link on the "Word" section titled "Orthodoxy vs. Heresy".

Peace/Jim

jim, what are you thinking!?!? we cant have another thread bashing preachers that we dont like!

just kidding

[Psalm25Gomer]

Originally Posted by middletree

This is not a matter of a preacher who teaches something disputable, like losing salvation, which theologians have struggled with for centuries. This is a false teacher, whose teachings are harmful to thousands, maybe millions of followers. Jesus called out false teachers. Paul did. Heck, Paul even called Peter out on one thing, because what he was teaching was harmful. Copeland may have good intentions. He may not be trying to fleece anyone. But his teachings are anti-biblical, and they are affecting untold numbers of believers and seekers.

Reminds me of the saying:


The road to destruction is paved with good intentions.