President Bush's Surge speech...

[Evanescence]

Just watched it. It was what I expected. We'll be there a while...

The interesting thing is that on C-Span, they opened up their lines to callers. They had Reps, Dems and Independents. One Indy called in.

But, of the 20-25 callers, only about 3-4 supported Bush's comments and/or the war. The rest, an even number of Reps and Dems had harsh words of accountability toward Bush, the administration and the entire US Govt.

A few comments struck me. One man asked why Congress hasn't investigated Bush's ties to Saudi Arabia, 911 and other conflicts of interest and another guy asked about our support of Israel.

The words liar and double talk came up a lot.

People are angry and fed up at the crap spewed forth by Bush, his power-buddies and the US Govt in general.

The tide is turning....people are starting to realize the way these "leaders" operate....:(

[cheewiee]

Just watched it. It was what I expected. We'll be there a while...

The interesting thing is that on C-Span, they opened up their lines to callers. They had Reps, Dems and Independents. One Indy called in.

But, of the 20-25 callers, only about 3-4 supported Bush's comments and/or the war. The rest, an even number of Reps and Dems had harsh words of accountability toward Bush, the administration and the entire US Govt.

A few comments struck me. One man asked why Congress hasn't investigated Bush's ties to Saudi Arabia, 911 and other conflicts of interest and another guy asked about our support of Israel.

The words liar and double talk came up a lot.

People are angry and fed up at the crap spewed forth by Bush, his power-buddies and the US Govt in general.

The tide is turning....people are starting to realize the way these "leaders" operate....:(

I don't think any tide is turning... People are angry at Bush, when it isn't necessarly Bush that failed the people, rather the system. And until the people get angry at the system, and we have viable third parties, it will be business as usual, perhaps with a democrat, but more of the same....

[kiwisongbird]

Yup, I agree, I don't think it would really matter if you have a Dem or a Rep - most politicians are cut from a similar cloth and in any country where you really only have two parties - well, it's not going to change much from one to the other... NZ was the same when we only really had Labour and National... now we have MMP which ends up with coalition governments so many times the smaller parties have more say in the running of the country... mind you, our country is pretty much stuffed nowadays as it becomes more and more socialist and controlled by legislation...

It could be the end of the world maybe???? :eek:

[jabob]

It could be the end of the world maybe???? :eek:

And I feel fine

[Jesuslove]

I don't think any tide is turning... People are angry at Bush, when it isn't necessarly Bush that failed the people, rather the system. And until the people get angry at the system, and we have viable third parties, it will be business as usual, perhaps with a democrat, but more of the same....

No, Bush failed us. He insisted we invade a country with no ties to 9/11. Now we are occupying another nation. Who are we? We aren't the world police. Ron Paul is right. We have no right to interfere in others domestic affairs. And it's because of our meddling, we were attacked. And because of our meddling, we continue to be hated around the world.

[SonflowerGurl]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703811]No Bush failed us. [QUOTE]

Who do you think Bush is? Jesus? Did you vote for Bush? If you did, maybe he has disappointed you... If you didn't vote for him, well, his vision has been different than yours...

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703811]No Bush failed us. [QUOTE]

Who do you think Bush is? Jesus? Did you vote for Bush? If you did, maybe he has disappointed you... If you didn't vote for him, well, his vision has been different than yours...

Well are the 25% of Americans who support Bush are wrong, or are the 75% of Americans and virtually the majority of citizens in just about every other country in the world who don't support Bush wrong?

[SonflowerGurl]

[QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 26][QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703811]No Bush failed us.

Well are the 25% of Americans who support Bush are wrong, or are the 75% of Americans and virtually the majority of citizens in just about every other country in the world who don't support Bush wrong?

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

Actually public opinion is not leadership. And if it makes you feel better Bush's ratings are up another 8 points in the past few weeks...

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703834][QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 26]

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." ~Mark Twain

Actually public opinion is not leadership. And if it makes you feel better Bush's ratings are up another 8 points in the past few weeks...


What poll are you looking at? I have seen nothing about his rating being up.

The majority isn't always right, but in this case, the majority is right. What right do we have to invade and occupy another country? Is that moral? Is that Christian? Who are we? How would you feel if the US was invaded and occupied because foreigners didn't agree with our leader or our form of government.

[mat1583]

I don't think any tide is turning... People are angry at Bush, when it isn't necessarly Bush that failed the people, rather the system. And until the people get angry at the system, and we have viable third parties, it will be business as usual, perhaps with a democrat, but more of the same....

Bush is the Commander in Chief. He made some very bad decisions based on bad intelligence and the influence war hungry generals. He went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq unconstitutionally. Bush has justified military action to police the world and has called it a "war" time after time. I believe that if Bush had more than two years left in his term, there would possibly be action by the people to impeach the President.

-washboard

[Jesuslove]

I believe that if Bush had more than two years left in his term, there would possibly be action by the people to impeach the President.
-washboard

I agree. I sense the Dems won't impeach Bush because Bush's replacement would be an incumbent president who could run for re-election in '08. Also, Bush is doing so much to hurt the GOP in the house and senate, why remove him?

[bdfwinn]

[QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 26][QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703811]No Bush failed us.

Well are the 25% of Americans who support Bush are wrong, or are the 75% of Americans and virtually the majority of citizens in just about every other country in the world who don't support Bush wrong?

His approval rating is 35% not 25 still miserably low I agree.

Also it is interesting to note that the Dem controlled House in August 2007 had an approval rating of 24%. Way lower but nearly never in the news.

Also don't forget that almost EVERY democrat that is making speeches like "Bush took us to war its all his fault he tricked us he lied" are just wrong and partisan. They reviewed the same intell and voted to give him authority to go to war. Its just easier to point the finger at one guy especially one that differs with your political persuasion.

You can't call President Bush a "monkey" "idiot" "buffoon" "dummy" and everything else the democratic base like moveon calls him and then say "He tricked me" That makes you even dumber. Maybe the US population sees that and it is reflected in those congressional poll numbers.

We all need to wake up and see the System the Troll has created and get out and refuse to participate in it. Its not just politics it goes way deeper than that.

Satan is the god of 'You are not' he constantly tells people they 'are not'.

Then the system says if you do this you can be, if you buy this you can be. Satan says 'you don't belong' then the system he set up says "if you do this or buy this or believe this you can belong'

The two parties in this country are working together and they probably don't even know it or car to know it. So I'm out of the Troll's system as much as I can be. At least I am trying to be more self aware about it.

Bill

[Jesuslove]

His approval rating is 35% not 25 still miseably low I agree.
I said approval for the war was 25%

Also don't forget that almost EVERY democrat that is making speeches like "Bush took us to war its all his fault he tricked us he lied" are just wrong and partisan. They reviewed the same intell and voted to give him authority to go to war. Its just easier to point the finger at one guy especially one that differs with your political pursuasion.
But he did trick us and lie. He now says that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And I would have disagreed with the war whether it were a Republican or Democrat in office. I am not affiliated with one political party.


You can't call President Bush a "monkey" "idiot" "bufoon" "dummy" and everything else the democratic base like moveon calls him and then say "He tricked me" That makes you even dummer. Maybe the US population sees that and it is reflected in those congressional poll numbers.
I never said he tricked me. I was smart enough to realize this was a mistake from the beginning and I very vocally said so.

[bdfwinn]

I said approval for the war was 25%




no you said Bush. War= W A R = War... Bush= B U S H = Bush:)

Just kidding but you did say Bush. I reread your posts carefully and if I missed it I am sorry but I could not find where you saud approval for the was =25%
Bill


*by the way I think war sucks too especially this one* don't tell anybody shhhhhhhh

[Valpo]

He went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq unconstitutionally.
-washboard

I want to highlight this point, because I think it's wrong. He got approval from both houses of congress in each situation. And while there is certainly plenty of good debate as to Iraq always being wrong, how was it wrong to invade aghanistan and go after the people who attacked us? What do we do, just sit back in our recliners and wait for it to happen again? I know you're a big Ron Paul guy who would rather just pull back from everywhere and let the world be, but in the real world we have now we can't do that. Since Jefferson we have meddled in affairs around the world, and it would have been ridiculous to not invade Afghanistan after 9/11.

[cheewiee]

No, Bush failed us. He insisted we invade a country with no ties to 9/11. Now we are occupying another nation. Who are we? We aren't the world police. Ron Paul is right. We have no right to interfere in others domestic affairs. And it's because of our meddling, we were attacked. And because of our meddling, we continue to be hated around the world.

Bush didn't fail you... The president didn't have the authority to take us into war... Your congressmen and senators that relied on Aides to read prewar intelligence and give them recomendations failed you.. Those who failed to stand against popular opinion, they failed you.

This country has checks and balances, it is the checks and balances that are supposed to prevent this type of failure.

[Jesuslove]

Bush didn't fail you... The president didn't have the authority to take us into war... Your congressmen and senators that relied on Aides to read prewar intelligence and give them recomendations failed you.. Those who failed to stand against popular opinion, they failed you.

This country has checks and balances, it is the checks and balances that are supposed to prevent this type of failure.

So you admit it was a failure---

Congress and the Senate did not recommend this war. They couldn't have acted without the President's authority. Granted, GWB presented faulty intelligence to both the Senate and Congress.

by the way, nice Avatar cheewiee

[cheewiee]

So you admit it was a failure---

Congress and the Senate did not recommend this war. They couldn't have acted without the President's authority. Granted, GWB presented faulty intelligence to both the Senate and Congress.

by the way, nice Avatar cheewiee

Your right, The COTUS, and the SOTUS did not recommend this war, but they did support it. They were presented the same intelligence that the president used. He didn't present faulty intelligence, he presented old intelligence.

Your, and my congressional leaders didn't even read the intelligence. They had aides read the intelligence and brief them on it.

These people were voting on a war and they didn't take the time to do their own research. This was everyone who voted for the war, from Clinton, to Kerry, to Gephardt, to you name it. Even McCain admitted it...

And what I mean by failure, I mean the two party system. Our two party system is about controll and power, not solving problems.

Thank's I made it the other night....

(on a self promoting side note, you might be interested in reading my blogs on my myspace page. I tend to vent my more liberal tendancies on my blog.)

[bdfwinn]

Hey JL,
you didn't reply to my post about the "war" approval rating. I'm hurt man. I put a lot of thought into that one to try and get you to grin a little as part of a friendly joust.:( :confused: :D
bill

[SonflowerGurl]

[QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 38][QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703834]


What poll are you looking at? I have seen nothing about his rating being up.

The majority isn't always right, but in this case, the majority is right. What right do we have to invade and occupy another country? Is that moral? Is that Christian? Who are we? How would you feel if the US was invaded and occupied because foreigners didn't agree with our leader or our form of government.


I believe that number was on C-Span when I was watching the analysis of the Petresas report. ....And you are very inconsistant...you believe the majority is right when they agree with you and the majority is wrong when they disagree. There is something in this equation that doesn't add up....could it be that what you think doesn't necessarily determine what's right?

btw ...don't you know if American troops desert the Iraq people...how much blood shed do you expect to see from sectatarian violence? Right now, our troops are what's keeping outright oppression & violence by Al Quata and Iran from stirring it up ethnic tensions to keep the region unstable
...hmmn...maybe if we leave we can comeback when it's a humanitarian issue. :rolleyes:

[clemsontigers23]

[QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 26][QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703811]No Bush failed us.

Well are the 25% of Americans who support Bush are wrong, or are the 75% of Americans and virtually the majority of citizens in just about every other country in the world who don't support Bush wrong?

I'm proud to say I'm one of the 25%...I thought Bush did a great job last night. I think it's sad that people let their hatred of him get in the way of rationality. I also think some of the things said about people who support Bush are uncalled for...just because 75% of Americans disagree doesn't mean I'm going to change my views to please them. In the end times, 75% or more will probably disagree with your Christian faith, but are you going to compromise your beliefs and go along with the crowd? I hope not. I think most of the anger directed towards Bush is fueled by the media, and I think it's disgraceful that the Democrats won't acknowledge that any progress has been made in Iraq.

After watching the Democrats response to Bush, I will never vote for a Democrat. Never. It is disgraceful the way they are handling this. They're agents of anti-war propaganda, and they refuse to acknowledge any postive things happening in Iraq. It's even more disgraceful that none of the Democrat presidential candidates haven't condemned the "General Betray Us" ad being run by moveon.org.

The funniest thing was the Democrats criticism. Jack Reed kept talking about how George W. Bush doesn't have a plan, but I haven't heard a plan from any of the Democratic candidates except Joe Biden, and his could actually work. President Bush was talking about how pretty soon our mission is going to evolve to where we'll focus on counterterroism and training Iraqi forces. Jack Reed, after saying Bush doesn't have a plan, went on to describe the Democrat plan for Iraq. Guess what? They want to focus on counterterroism and training the Iraqi forces! They said the exact words that President Bush said! When he said that, he and his party lost all credibility with me. I am so sick of the Democrats running on the "anti-Bush" platform, and it's even more disappointing that Republican senators who once supported the war are turning their back on Bush because they can't handle the pressure.

Progress is being made...things are getting better...the troops themselves have said that. If you choose not to believe that any progress is being made, then you truly are rooting for America and our troops to fail.

By the way, Harry Truman had Bush-like numbers towards the end of his presidency as far as approval rating goes...even Reagan was losing support for awhile. Both were excellent presidents. I wouldn't put any stock into approval ratings...I've never voted in one of those, so they're not 100% accurate.

[mat1583]

I want to highlight this point, because I think it's wrong. He got approval from both houses of congress in each situation. And while there is certainly plenty of good debate as to Iraq always being wrong, how was it wrong to invade aghanistan and go after the people who attacked us?

It wasn't wrong to invade Afghanistan, but to paraphrase RP, what we're doing now in Afghanistan is wrong. Check out this video. RP explains it starting near 4:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7JPvbVsDdY


What do we do, just sit back in our recliners and wait for it to happen again? I know you're a big Ron Paul guy who would rather just pull back from everywhere and let the world be, but in the real world we have now we can't do that. Since Jefferson we have meddled in affairs around the world, and it would have been ridiculous to not invade Afghanistan after 9/11.

Wrong. The United States had a strong isolationist, non-interventionist foreign policy up until WWII.

And yes it would have been ridiculous...but instead of going in there, getting rid of al Queda and capturing Osama, we decided to try and nation build! In the process we let Osama get away. Btw, RP voted for the military action in Afghanistan.

Here's an ironic point. Check out this National Security Strategy statement...

"Finally, the United States will use this moment of opportunity to extend the benefits of freedom across the globe. We will actively work to bring the hope of democracy, development, free markets, and free trade to every corner of the world. The events of September 11, 2001, taught us that weak states, like Afghanistan, can pose as great a danger to our national interests as strong states. Poverty does not make poor people into terrorists and murderers. Yet poverty, weak institutions, and corruption can make weak states vulnerable to terrorist networks and drug cartels within their borders."

1) We are trying to police the world, nation build, and force democracy on nations that don't necessarily want it.
2)"Yet poverty, weak institutions, and corruption can make weak states vulnerable to terrorist networks..." How about "Yet, invading a country and destroying their military and government makes once strong states weak and vulnerable to terrorist networks." - It wasn't until we invaded and 'destroyed' Iraq that the terrorists actually came in.

-washboard

[Valpo]

[QUOTE]It wasn't wrong to invade Afghanistan, but to paraphrase RP, what we're doing now in Afghanistan is wrong. Check out this video. RP explains it starting near 4:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7JPvbVsDdY

a very fair point

Wrong. The United States had a strong isolationist, non-interventionist foreign policy up until WWII.

And yes it would have been ridiculous...but instead of going in there, getting rid of al Queda and capturing Osama, we decided to try and nation build! In the process we let Osama get away. Btw, RP voted for the military action in Afghanistan.

Here's an ironic point. Check out this National Security Strategy statement...

"Finally, the United States will use this moment of opportunity to extend the benefits of freedom across the globe. We will actively work to bring the hope of democracy, development, free markets, and free trade to every corner of the world. The events of September 11, 2001, taught us that weak states, like Afghanistan, can pose as great a danger to our national interests as strong states. Poverty does not make poor people into terrorists and murderers. Yet poverty, weak institutions, and corruption can make weak states vulnerable to terrorist networks and drug cartels within their borders."

1) We are trying to police the world, nation build, and force democracy on nations that don't necessarily want it.
2)"Yet poverty, weak institutions, and corruption can make weak states vulnerable to terrorist networks..." How about "Yet, invading a country and destroying their military and government makes once strong states weak and vulnerable to terrorist networks." - It wasn't until we invaded and 'destroyed' Iraq that the terrorists actually came in.

and another fair point, though I think it is very important that these states develop a democratic govt or something akin to it to offer up another and much more stronger voice to terrorism. I think, for better or worse, both world wars and especially the second gave us the legitimacy to step in around the world. Now, have we abused it? yes. Have we innocently misused it? yes. Does that make our overall hope for democracy in the world wrong? no.

[rossid]

[QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 26][QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703811]No Bush failed us.

I'm also in the 25%.

Bill touched on this but I'll chime in too:

Well are the 25% of Americans who support Bush are wrong, or are the 75% of Americans and virtually the majority of citizens in just about every other country in the world who don't support Bush wrong?

And as far as 25% for Bush what about only 18% approval for Congress? Democrats are the majority in congress and most want withdrawal. But if they are both suffering from low approval one can't point and say 'hey Bush is wrong or hey Congress is wrong' in regards to Iraq.

[SonflowerGurl]

I would encourage any of you to actually watch the congressional hearing with Gen. Petreas...just heard Joe Liberman's questioning of the General....hmmn...wasn't Liberman a target of MoveOn too? The reason he's now a independant instead of a Democrat? Maybe there is a reason you can hear crickets on the Democrat response to MoveOn's ads "General Betray us" ....

btw most of Liberman's view are much more liberal than my own but he has my respect.

Hmmmn...

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1703840][QUOTE=SonflowerGurl;17038 38]


I believe that number was on C-Span when I was watching the analysis of the Petresas report. ....And you are very inconsistant...you believe the majority is right when they agree with you and the majority is wrong when they disagree. There is something in this equation that doesn't add up....could it be that what you think doesn't necessarily determine what's right?

btw ...don't you know if American troops desert the Iraq people...how much blood shed do you expect to see from sectatarian violence? Right now, our troops are what's keeping outright oppression & violence by Al Quata and Iran from stirring it up ethnic tensions to keep the region unstable
...hmmn...maybe if we leave we can comeback when it's a humanitarian issue. :rolleyes:

No, I'm consistent. I don't always agree with the majority. I certainly didn't agree with the majority in going to war from the beginning. It sounds as if you are critical of me for having an opinion. Could it be what you think doesn't necessarily determine what's right?

So I'm guessing you think we should stay in Iraq forever since GWB has no exit strategy and our leaving may prompt a civil war. When do the Iraqis take responsibility for their own country? How many troops will it take for us to say, enough is enough! :rolleyes:

[Jesuslove]

I'm proud to say I'm one of the 25%...I thought Bush did a great job last night. I think it's sad that people let their hatred of him get in the way of rationality. I also think some of the things said about people who support Bush are uncalled for...just because 75% of Americans disagree doesn't mean I'm going to change my views to please them. In the end times, 75% or more will probably disagree with your Christian faith, but are you going to compromise your beliefs and go along with the crowd? I hope not. I think most of the anger directed towards Bush is fueled by the media, and I think it's disgraceful that the Democrats won't acknowledge that any progress has been made in Iraq.
We have no right being there. It is not our country. The majority of Iraqis don't want us there. Who gave us the right. Certainly invading and occupying a country isn't a Christian concept.

After watching the Democrats response to Bush, I will never vote for a Democrat. Never. It is disgraceful the way they are handling this. They're agents of anti-war propaganda, and they refuse to acknowledge any postive things happening in Iraq. It's even more disgraceful that none of the Democrat presidential candidates haven't condemned the "General Betray Us" ad being run by moveon.org.
After watching GWB, I will never again vote Republican. To me, Republican equals repulsive. Even if positive things are happening in Iraq, WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO OCCUPY ANOTHER country or dictate their form of government.

Progress is being made...things are getting better...the troops themselves have said that. If you choose not to believe that any progress is being made, then you truly are rooting for America and our troops to fail.
Wrong! I want the troops home. Too many have died already. I believe those who don't support the troops, want them to stay indefinitely.

[SonflowerGurl]

I don't claim to be right all the time, so no, I'm not inconsistant. So in my opinion, it is very important that the Iraqi conflict be handled in a honorable, smart way. I don't think it's smart to plan to be there "forever", just long enough to handle it properly.

What do you think of Iran's de-stablizing Iraq?

btw ...with all your posting I'm afraid others won't see my MoveOn/Liberman statement?

I'll post it here so others will read it after the page flips...

I would encourage any of you to actually watch the congressional hearing with Gen. Petreas...just heard Joe Liberman's questioning of the General....hmmn...wasn't Liberman a target of MoveOn too? The reason he's now a independant instead of a Democrat? Maybe there is a reason you can hear crickets on the Democrat response to MoveOn's ads "General Betray us" ....

btw most of Liberman's view are much more liberal than my own but he has my respect.

Hmmmn...

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=mat1583;1704051]
I think, for better or worse, both world wars and especially the second gave us the legitimacy to step in around the world. Now, have we abused it? yes. Have we innocently misused it? yes. Does that make our overall hope for democracy in the world wrong? no.


Who gave us the right to police the world or nation build? We have no right to force democracy on others. Democracy doesn't work everywhere. Why do we as Americans have to have our way? Why do we have to interfere in others' business, then when 9/11 events occur, we ask why? I never want another 9/11 or worse to occur again. I want America to stay out of other's business.

[rossid]

Yes, I want the troops to stay there indefinitely, and a whole lot more to die. That is exactly what I want...

[Jesuslove]

I don't claim to be right all the time, so no, I'm not inconsistant. So in my opinion, it is very important that the Iraqi conflict be handled in a honorable, smart way. I don't think it's smart to plan to be there "forever", just long enough to handle it properly.

What do you think of Iran's de-stablizing Iraq?


So you are saying my way isn't honorable or smart? It would be easier to just say you disagree with me.

Here's what I think needs to happen. GWB needs to meet with the leaders of Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Jordan to come up with a solution that all can agree with. GWB needs to work with the UN to ensure people are protected. The UN needs to declare the region an unstable zone and provide UN peacekeepers to work and monitor the situation. The Iraqi government needs to be given a deadline for success. If the government collapses, we need to pursue the formation of three separate nations with certain regions given autonomy so oil revenues can be split.

[Jesuslove]

Progress is being made...things are getting better...the troops themselves have said that. If you choose not to believe that any progress is being made, then you truly are rooting for America and our troops to fail.
Just cause one doesn't support the war, doesn't mean they want the soldiers to fail.

[SonflowerGurl]

I don't claim to be right all the time, so no, I'm not inconsistant. So in my opinion, it is very important that the Iraqi conflict be handled in a honorable, smart way. I don't think it's smart to plan to be there "forever", just long enough to handle it properly.

What do you think of Iran's de-stablizing Iraq?

btw ...with all your posting I'm afraid others won't see my MoveOn/Liberman statement?

I'll post it here so others will read it after the page flips...

I would encourage any of you to actually watch the congressional hearing with Gen. Petreas...just heard Joe Liberman's questioning of the General....hmmn...wasn't Liberman a target of MoveOn too? The reason he's now a independant instead of a Democrat? Maybe there is a reason you can hear crickets on the Democrat response to MoveOn's ads "General Betray us" ....

btw most of Liberman's view are much more liberal than my own but he has my respect.

Hmmmn...

Since the page flipped within minutes of my posting and no answer I'll post it again...

I would encourage any of you to actually watch the congressional hearing with Gen. Petreas...just heard Joe Liberman's questioning of the General....hmmn...wasn't Liberman a target of MoveOn too? The reason he's now a independant instead of a Democrat? Maybe there is a reason you can hear crickets on the Democrat response to MoveOn's ads "General Betray us" ....

btw most of Liberman's view are much more liberal than my own but he has my respect.

Hmmmn...

[SonflowerGurl]

Just cause one doesn't support the war, doesn't mean they want the soldiers to fail.

That's a legitimate opinion but it doesn't make it right.

[Jesuslove]

Since the page flipped within minutes of my posting and no answer I'll post it again...

I would encourage any of you to actually watch the congressional hearing with Gen. Petreas...just heard Joe Liberman's questioning of the General....hmmn...wasn't Liberman a target of MoveOn too?

Hmmmn...

Lieberman is an independent cause he lost the primary to another deomcratic candidate.... so he ran as an Independent.

[Jesuslove]

That's a legitimate opinion but it doesn't make it right.

True, but I could make the same arguement that clemsontigers, yourself, and others like him don't support the troops cause they want the troops to stay in Iraq, where thousands more could get killed.

[SonflowerGurl]

True, but I could make the same arguement that clemsontigers, yourself, and others like him don't support the troops cause they want the troops to stay in Iraq, where thousands more could get killed.

I've never said you don't support the troops...never. I simply don't agree with your view of how to handle the conflict.

BTW...the reason Liberman had to run and WIN as an independent is because he found himself a victim/target of MoveOn because he had a different view of the war than was the party line. He votes very much as a Democrat on most issues and obviously most of the citizens of his state still voted for him.

[Jesuslove]

I've never said you don't support the troops...never. I simply don't agree with your view of how to handle the conflict.

BTW...the reason Liberman had to run and WIN as an independent is because he found himself a victim/target of MoveOn because he had a different view of the war than was the party line. He votes very much as a Democrat on most issues and obviously most of the citizens of his state still voted for him.

I didn't say y ou did. Clemsontigers suggested I don't want the troops to succeed because I don't support the President.

In my opinion, Lieberman supports the war because he's pro-Israel.

[SonflowerGurl]

I didn't say y ou did. Clemsontigers suggested I don't want the troops to succeed because I don't support the President.

In my opinion, Lieberman supports the war because he's pro-Israel.

Probably because if Iran can keep the Middle East unstable ...well lest just say they have no love for Israel. After all, their top leader denounced the Holocaust.

[Jesuslove]

Probably because if Iran can keep the Middle East unstable ...well lest just say they have no love for Israel. After all, their top leader denounced the Holocaust.

Either way, I think it's in our best interest to have talks with Iran over the situation in Iraq.

[SonflowerGurl]

So you don't think MoveOn targeted Liberman and Iran is just misunderstood? ;)

[Jesuslove]

So you don't think MoveOn targeted Liberman and Iran is just misunderstood? ;)

I don't know anything about Moveon.

[clemsontigers23]

We have no right being there. It is not our country. The majority of Iraqis don't want us there. Who gave us the right. Certainly invading and occupying a country isn't a Christian concept.

So I guess when God gave Gideon a miraculous victory in war, and when God brought the walls of Jericho down, it wasn't a Christian concept. War happens...it's going to happen. It has to happen before the end comes. There are times when it's necessary, and this was one of those times.

Also, how do you know the Iraqis don't want us there? A man who spent a tour of duty said sometimes people would come out of their houses and start cheering when American troops walk down the street. The Iraqis are begging us to stay because they know what will happen if we pull out and abandon them in their time of need. That's the real crime...to leave those people to die while we chicken out and leave.

After watching GWB, I will never again vote Republican. To me, Republican equals repulsive. Even if positive things are happening in Iraq, WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO OCCUPY ANOTHER country or dictate their form of government.

GWB is one Republican. I based my opinion of Democats on dozens of Democrats who all have the same ideals.

Wrong! I want the troops home. Too many have died already. I believe those who don't support the troops, want them to stay indefinitely.

If we pull out, nearly 4,000 troops died in vain. You have to remember they believe in what they're fighting for...freedom. I didn't say you didn't support the troops...but I did say if you won't acknowledge ANY progress being made in Iraq, that you are rooting for us to fail in Iraq. I stand by that. By saying no progress has been made, you are not giving our troops enough credit. You are also lying because inevitably some progress is being made. It's not like 1st graders are running the war. Think about that one.

Either way, I think it's in our best interest to have talks with Iran over the situation in Iraq.

Problem is, the two most powerful men in Iran are both borderline clinically insane, and share a hatred of both the US and Israel. The president of Iran has said, and I'm not making this up, that he wants to bring on Armageddon so the Islamic messiah will come. I'm pretty sure nuclear weapons and wiping Israel off the map are a part of that. Be careful about what you say about Israel...I once read a very interesting article that detailed everytime we tried to give some of the Jewish land to Muslims, a disaster struck America, including Hurricane Katrina. Days before Katrina, due to US efforts to create a Palestinian nation, thousands of Jews were forced from their homes, yet no one paid attention and felt any sadness. Days later, thousands of Americans were forced from their homes. I don't think it's a coincidence. I think that's a message from God Himself.

[Evanescence]

Man, if I wasn't on a public computer in a hotel near Tulsa, OK, I'd jump right in here and get my hands dirty...:P :cool: :P

I'll let ya'll dance with this topic for a while, then I'll be back to close up shop...

Oh, and in the near future, I'm going to explain and show 100% documented evidence that the US government sponsored several dictators that murdered over 500,000 people and how the CIA kept it out of the media for nearly 30 years.

Hmmmm,...Imagine that....

Hold on guys....its gonna get wild !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have fun !!!!!!!!

[SonflowerGurl]

I know the US government isn't completely innocent of meddling...after the Hostage crisis in 1979 we actually back Saddam Hussin because he was fighting Iran...and ignored the fact he gased the Kurds...

I'm basing my view on the facts now.

[Teedub]

Uuhh.... news flash.... This war may be scriptural and necessary for the Last Days. Here's why I think that:

Focus on the Family interviewed author Joel C. Rosenberg earlier this week. He wrote a fictitious novel called The Ezekiel Option. He said that he finished writing that book on Sept. 11, 2001....

The book was a thriller about nuclear war between Israel and Iran, and he based it entirely on scripture, specifically, Ezekiel. There are many Christians who believe Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39 are a description of nuclear war between Israel and Iran. (For a really good read on this, see John Hagee's Jerusalem Countdown.) I think chapter 37 is a pretty dang good description of the Renaisance of Israel in 1948, myself.

Anyway, Rosenberg was spinning a tale based on this Scripture, and he found himself in a quandry. There was no mention of Iraq in the Scripture. So how does he get Saddam Hussein out of the picture? Rosenberg dreams up some kind of cataclismic terrorist attack on American soil which draws the US into a war with Iraq. (Not the World Trade Center, but I haven't read the book... yet...)

Now Rosenberg doesn't claim to be prophetic, he was just spinning a tale based on what he knows about world events and Scripture. But on the day he finished writing his book, the World Trade Center was demolished by terrorists, and before too long, the war really happened.

If you'd like to see more about Rosenberg, I found this:
http://www.joelrosenberg.blogspo t.com/

[Evanescence]

Back home now....

Question for Clemson-dude:

You said that this war was necessary and justified. Please explain the difference between Saddam Hussein and GWB in regards to the killing of innocent civilians. They both have several hundred thousand deaths to their credit.....in fact GWB may have more, but please explain the difference between the two men, thier ideas and reasons for doing the things they did.

[Jesuslove]

So If we pull out, nearly 4,000 troops died in vain. You have to remember they believe in what they're fighting for...freedom.
So you think if we leave, troops will have died in vain? When does the killing stop? This war needs to end! And I don't see our troops as freedom fighters. We weren't attacked by Iraq. We didn't invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons, we invaded because GWB misled us about WMD's. We had no right to invade.


Problem is, the two most powerful men in Iran are both borderline clinically insane, and share a hatred of both the US and Israel.
Then what is your solution for getting us out of this mess aka the Iraq War?

[SonflowerGurl]

Actually it hasn't been the U.S. killing the majority of people in Iraq it's been Insurgents... and do you really think the violence will lessen with the exit of the U.S. when the U.S. is what stands between civilians and those who would kill their own?

[Jesuslove]

Actually it hasn't been the U.S. killing the majority of people in Iraq it's been Insurgents... and do you really think the violence will lessen with the exit of the U.S. when the U.S. is what stands between civilians and those who would kill their own?

So we should stay there indefinitely? What is your solution? How can you justify our invasion in the first place? To follow up on what Evanescence said, how is GWB any better than Saddam Hussein?

[cheewiee]

So we should stay there indefinitely? What is your solution? How can you justify our invasion in the first place? To follow up on what Evanescence said, how is GWB any better than Saddam Hussein?

GWB doesn't gas his own people... GWB doesn't feed discenters into plastic shredders... GWB doesn't have rape rooms, and mass graves....

The invasion is easily justifiable, actually. Since the cease fire in 92, Hussein never fully complied with the conditions of the cease fire...

[Jesuslove]

GWB doesn't gas his own people... GWB doesn't feed discenters into plastic shredders... GWB doesn't have rape rooms, and mass graves....

The invasion is easily justifiable, actually. Since the cease fire in 92, Hussein never fully complied with the conditions of the cease fire...

GWB should have pressured the UN to enforce the conditions. Instead, he made claims of WMD's that were never found. The majority of US citizens wouldn't have supported the war, had they not believed there was a threat and a link between Iraq and 9/11. If GWB said from the beginning there was no link, most Americans wouldn't have supported this war.

[cheewiee]

GWB should have pressured the UN to enforce the conditions. Instead, he made claims of WMD's that were never found. The majority of US citizens wouldn't have supported the war, had they not believed there was a threat and a link between Iraq and 9/11. If GWB said from the beginning there was no link, most Americans wouldn't have supported this war.

They never said that there was a link between Iraq, and 9-11. He said that there was a link between Iraq and Al Queda, and there was through Zarqawe (SP). He also connected Iraq to State Sponsored Terrorism, which they were by paying families of palestinian Suicide Bombers $10,000.

The UN wasn't going to do anything. The UN is a waste of time, energy, and resources. The fact is, Russia and China want to see US influence in the world diminish, so that their influence increases. You can see this now in the dealings with Iran.

[Valpo]

GWB should have pressured the UN to enforce the conditions. Instead, he made claims of WMD's that were never found. The majority of US citizens wouldn't have supported the war, had they not believed there was a threat and a link between Iraq and 9/11. If GWB said from the beginning there was no link, most Americans wouldn't have supported this war.

first of all Bush NEVER said Iraq was behind 9/11 or there was evidence to say such. The fact is Saddam funded Hamas and other terror organizations and there was evidence that his government and al-qaeda had been in contact looking to construe some type of an alliance. And as far as the whole intelligence on the WMD's go, how quickly we forget when we put on our partisan blinders, BILL CLINTON BOMBED BAGHDAD FOR THESE VERY REASONS. Bill Clinton pushed and signed a REGIME CHANGE ACT for IRAQ in the late 90s! Why? Because BILL CLINTON thought due to the intelligence he had seen that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the world because he sought WMD's and would build them! We know Saddam had them, he used them before! So let's cut the "Bush made up the WMD's crap" because it's a tired and frankly a stupid little myth. Ted Kennedy voted for the Regime Change Act for crying out loud.

[Jesuslove]

first of all Bush NEVER said Iraq was behind 9/11 or there was evidence to say such. The fact is Saddam funded Hamas and other terror organizations and there was evidence that his government and al-qaeda had been in contact looking to construe some type of an alliance. And as far as the whole intelligence on the WMD's go, how quickly we forget when we put on our partisan blinders, BILL CLINTON BOMBED BAGHDAD FOR THESE VERY REASONS. Bill Clinton pushed and signed a REGIME CHANGE ACT for IRAQ in the late 90s! Why? Because BILL CLINTON thought due to the intelligence he had seen that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the world because he sought WMD's and would build them! We know Saddam had them, he used them before! So let's cut the "Bush made up the WMD's crap" because it's a tired and frankly a stupid little myth. Ted Kennedy voted for the Regime Change Act for crying out loud.

Bush lied to the American people re: WMDs. It's a fact. We have never found evidence of WMD's in the 4+ years we've been in Iraq, though Colin Powell presented photos taken from satellites. I guess they disappeared into thin air, despite us having photographic proof of their existence.

Saddam funded Hamas, true. America has funded terrorist organizations, and have supported brutal dictators over the years INCLUDING Saddam himself. Does that make America any better? No.

Bottom line, as I said before... we have no right to be in Iraq as an occupying force. We have no exit strategy, and never have. We have lost thousands of soldiers, and countless innocent Iraqis have died. We have destabilized the region. Oil costs more today then it did before we invaded. Many people here support GWB, but no one seems to have answers as to how to get out of Iraq, how to stabilize the region, how to fund our massive deficit that has resulted in part because of the war. It's time to wake up before we have a civil war in America. We need to see this war for what is was/is.

[Valpo]

And just as I expected you would, you danced around the Clinton issue which was central to my post. Keep living in your Bush hatred fantasy land, go to that happy place and stay there.

[Jesuslove]

And just as I expected you would, you danced around the Clinton issue which was central to my post. Keep living in your Bush hatred fantasy land, go to that happy place and stay there.

the thread is titled President Bush's surge speech. it has nothing to do with Clinton.

[clemsontigers23]

GWB doesn't gas his own people... GWB doesn't feed discenters into plastic shredders... GWB doesn't have rape rooms, and mass graves....

The invasion is easily justifiable, actually. Since the cease fire in 92, Hussein never fully complied with the conditions of the cease fire...

E, here's your answer. cheewiee beat me to it.

Bush is a Christian, whether you like it or not. In Bible class we read a quote from his speech on the shuttle Columbia disaster where he quoted an entire passage out of Isaiah, explaining how God created the sky and the stars and the people who died, and that they had gone home. He did this in front of the whole nation, not ashamed to speak the Word of God. The hatred of him is unjustified.

[Evanescence]

GWB doesn't gas his own people... GWB doesn't feed discenters into plastic shredders... GWB doesn't have rape rooms, and mass graves....

The invasion is easily justifiable, actually. Since the cease fire in 92, Hussein never fully complied with the conditions of the cease fire...


This was Chew-sters response to the question Clem-son was supposed to answer. Nice cop out by the way my young friend.

There are valid points and its no secret that Saddam was a muderous, raping dictator. However, not one thing posted gives us the right to invade and remove someone from power all by ourselves, especially under these circumstances.

The Pentagon and several others have been pushing for him to be removed from power...but it was Bush who pulled the trigger. He's responsible for every mamed person and civilian death.

I'll say that there is a difference between Bush and Saddam but they both still killed for political, power and money. They both have innocent deaths under their belt....with questionable circustances.

BTW- You think people here in the US havn't been bumped off for slandering the Govt? Think again....

Bush is a Christian, whether you like it or not. In Bible class we read a quote from his speech on the shuttle Columbia disaster where he quoted an entire passage out of Isaiah, explaining how God created the sky and the stars and the people who died, and that they had gone home. He did this in front of the whole nation, not ashamed to speak the Word of God. The hatred of him is unjustified.

Thats it? Thats how you classify a Christian? Crap man, all sorts of people know the Bible and even speak it and that doesn't make them a Christian. No one should hate anyone, but the dislike or....utter disgust for him IS justified because of the constant double talk and lies that come out from him. Ever wonder why so many people around the world are protesting....now more than ever? Because people see what's happening and how things are lining up. The US is at the forefront for a one world government and Globalist ideaology. Thats why people are so up in arms. They see the connections to corruption and are trying to stop it.

The fact is, true Christians don't take part in secret societies, rub shoulders with big business for political and financial gain, and interfere with righteousness. An apple doesn't fall far from the tree....look at the Bush family history and you'll see it all there. After all, by their fruits you will know them. LMBO.

[Jesuslove]

This was Chew-sters response to the question Clem-son was supposed to answer. Nice cop out by the way my young friend.

There are valid points and its no secret that Saddam was a muderous, raping dictator. However, not one thing posted gives us the right to invade and remove someone from power all by ourselves, especially under these circumstances.

The Pentagon and several others have been pushing for him to be removed from power...but it was Bush who pulled the trigger. He's responsible for every mamed person and civilian death.

I'll say that there is a difference between Bush and Saddam but they both still killed for political, power and money. They both have innocent deaths under their belt....with questionable circustances.

BTW- You think people here in the US havn't been bumped off for slandering the Govt? Think again.....
I agree totally. It amazes me that most US citizens don't see Bush as evil, while the rest of the world, including millions of Christians, abhor us because of Bush's actions. I think every American should experience traveling abroad. Years ago, I was proud to travel abroad as an American. Today, when I go overseas, I wear nothing to indicate I'm American.



Thats it? Thats how you classify a Christian? Crap man, all sorts of people know the Bible and even speak it and that doesn't make them a Christian. No one should hate anyone, but the dislike or....utter disgust for him IS justified because of the constant double talk and lies that come out from him. Ever wonder why so many people around the world are protesting....now more than ever? Because people see what's happening and how things are lining up. The US is at the forefront for a one world government and Globalist ideaology. Thats why people are so up in arms. They see the connections to corruption and are trying to stop it.

The fact is, true Christians don't take part in secret societies, rub shoulders with big business for political and financial gain, and interfere with righteousness. An apple doesn't fall far from the tree....look at the Bush family history and you'll see it all there. After all, by their fruits you will know them. LMBO.

Once again, I agree. The ability to quote the Bible doesn't make someone a Christian. And his speech was likely written for him.

We have no right to dictuate how the world should be run, or what forms of government a country should have.

It really bothers me that Christians seem to be misled by GWB. On 9/11, two of America's most recognized Christian voices, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell said, ""I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" They blamed citizens who typically don't vote Republican for 9/11. GWB wasn't elected by these groups. Yet the people who elected GWB don't hold him accountable for his actions on 9/11 or after, especially the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[Evanescence]

Once again, I agree. The ability to quote the Bible doesn't make someone a Christian. And his speech was likely written for him.


hey, I didn't even think of this....

Not to mention its political. Make no mistake...NOTHING is done without politics in mind. Everything comes back to the big wheels at the party. The REP party tried desperatley to get their hands on a mailing list worth some 6-8 million people....CHRISTIANS....s o they could send out their lying propaganda during the last election. They BOTH do it, but REPS tend to lean toward recruiting Christians by using guilt, intimidation and other ilk to get votes. Everything comes back to VOTES in Washington. Thats first....everything else takes a back seat to that.

Thats why we need new laws for term limits...expecially on the state and federal level for our lawmakers. Once they get into office, they start working on their re-election immediately. Then aligning themseleves with bigger, seasoned politicians and eventually lobbyists and big business. This again is for power, campaign funds, election perks and benefits and also inside info for insider trading. A good example on how this works is in the latest movie: Evan Almighty. This is where an ordinary man gets elected to Congress and how he uncoveres corruption within.

Before anyone scoffs at my statements, I have proof in my research AND a very good friend who is running for Congress. We don't even talk about this by phone as he is sure his phone is tapped. Officials at his party said its a given. He's an average Joe, running against a rubber stamp, 4 time Congressman here in PA. Other career politicians in his party have already scoffed at him saying: "The days of a citizen politician are long gone...you need connections and experience in this new political day and age."

What a load of bull... :mad:

All this on all levels needs to stop. But the division won't allow it and the Sheeple keep it going....

[cheewiee]

I agree totally. It amazes me that most US citizens don't see Bush as evil, while the rest of the world, including millions of Christians, abhor us because of Bush's actions.

Bush is only as evil as you and I...

[Jesuslove]

Bush is only as evil as you and I...

I doubt that: at least I can speak for myself. I am not responsible for thousands of murders. I haven't lied to millions of people.

[cheewiee]

I doubt that: at least I can speak for myself. I am not responsible for thousands of murders. I haven't lied to millions of people.

Have you ever hated someone? Jesus says that is as good as murder... Have you ever Lied to someone?

Evil isn't about the amount of sin, it's just about sin...

[Jesuslove]

Have you ever hated someone? Jesus says that is as good as murder...

No, I hate no one. Sorry. I like some more than others, but I hate no one.

[cheewiee]

No, I hate no one. Sorry. I like some more than others, but I hate no one.

So then you would say that you love George W Bush?

[Jesuslove]

So then you would say that you love George W Bush?

no, I would just say I don't like him as much as I like other people.

[cheewiee]

no, I would just say I don't like him as much as I like other people.

You are commanded to love him, support him as the God given authority, and pray for him, possibly even cry for him.

[Jesuslove]

You are commanded to love him, support him as the God given authority, and pray for him, possibly even cry for him.

no one loves everyone exactly the same except for God. Believe me, I've shed many a tear over GWB. And I pray for him to change his ways every day.

[cheewiee]

no one loves everyone exactly the same except for God. Believe me, I've shed many a tear over GWB. And I pray for him to change his ways every day.

I never asked you if you love him the same as everyone else. I asked you if you love him? When you pray, do you pray that God gives him wisdom? That God Guides his discisions?

Whether or not we agree with our leaders, it is vital that we pray for them. It is vital that we want our leaders to succeed, and we pray for them in such a way, asking God to bless them with wisdom, and guidance.

[Jesuslove]

Whether or not we agree with our leaders, it is vital that we pray for them. It is vital that we want our leaders to succeed, and we pray for them in such a way, asking God to bless them with wisdom, and guidance.

I agree. I pray for GWB, though I think he makes bad decisions. I'm anxious to see how everyone will gather around and pray for Hillary when she wins the White House.

[cheewiee]

I agree. I pray for GWB, though I think he makes bad decisions. I'm anxious to see how everyone will gather around and pray for Hillary when she wins the White House.

I don't think Hillary will win, I actually think it will be Obama...

But your right, if a Democrat wins I pray that the church learns from it's past mistakes and gives up the partisian hackery and ernestly prays for them, and loves them.

[Jesuslove]

I don't think Hillary will win, I actually think it will be Obama...

But your right, if a Democrat wins I pray that the church learns from it's past mistakes and gives up the partisian hackery and ernestly prays for them, and loves them.

Amen!

[Evanescence]

See, people forget how things happen....we're too worried about the American Dream and can be so forgetful. Thank God there are some who keep track..

Here's a 6 min video with man, many clips of Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Powell and company double talking and selling the war. One minute they say one thing, the next another.

All video taken from our usual news sources....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ&NR=1

So much BS and everyone forgets....:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Valpo]

See, people forget how things happen....we're too worried about the American Dream and can be so forgetful. Thank God there are some who keep track..

Here's a 6 min video with man, many clips of Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Powell and company double talking and selling the war. One minute they say one thing, the next another.

All video taken from our usual news sources....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ&NR=1

So much BS and everyone forgets....:mad: :mad: :mad:

you gotta find a hobby E

[Evanescence]

you gotta find a hobby E

I have many....but one of my passions is educating people about whats REALLY going on in the world and our GOV. Not what the Govt controlled and scripted media tells us, but the the whole truth...or at least close enough we can all ask questions and get to the bottom of things...

[Evanescence]

For my old friends Valpo and Clemson...

Two quotes of interest....

Satanist Albert Pike, Leader of Freemasonry in America, in an 1870 letter to Guiseppe Mazzini

They are the invisible powers behind the thrones of earth, and men are but marionettes, dancing while the invisible ones pull the strings. We see the dancer, but the master mind that does the work remains concealed by the cloak of silence."

Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree Freemason

"If war had not come in 1914 in fierce and exaggerated form, the idea of an association of nations would probably have remained dormant, for great reforms seldom materialize except during great upheavals."

Hmmm...imagine that ;)

[Evanescence]

And....

"Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure---one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

David Rockefeller: Memoirs, p. 405

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promise of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The super-national sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."

David Rockefeller, at a 1991 Bilderberger meeting

"The State does not function as we desired...A man is at the wheel and seems to lead it, but the car does not drive in the desired direction. It moves as another force wishes."

David Rockefeller-1990

[cheewiee]

"If war had not come in 1914 in fierce and exaggerated form, the idea of an association of nations would probably have remained dormant, for great reforms seldom materialize except during great upheavals."


I would just like to point out, that most conservatives think we should pull out of the UN alltogether...

[bvc]

No, Bush failed us. He insisted we invade a country with no ties to 9/11. Now we are occupying another nation. Who are we? We aren't the world police. Ron Paul is right. We have no right to interfere in others domestic affairs. And it's because of our meddling, we were attacked. And because of our meddling, we continue to be hated around the world.



Bush is the Commander in Chief. He made some very bad decisions based on bad intelligence and the influence war hungry generals. He went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq unconstitutionally. Bush has justified military action to police the world and has called it a "war" time after time. I believe that if Bush had more than two years left in his term, there would possibly be action by the people to impeach the President.

-washboardI want to highlight this point, because I think it's wrong. He got approval from both houses of congress in each situation. And while there is certainly plenty of good debate as to Iraq always being wrong, how was it wrong to invade aghanistan and go after the people who attacked us? What do we do, just sit back in our recliners and wait for it to happen again? I know you're a big Ron Paul guy who would rather just pull back from everywhere and let the world be, but in the real world we have now we can't do that. Since Jefferson we have meddled in affairs around the world, and it would have been ridiculous to not invade Afghanistan after 9/11.

I only read the first page of the thread, so forgive me if this has been said here, though it has been said before, many times...

The speech after 9/11 stated we were going world-wide, were ever terrorist are, and to any country that supported terrorism. America roared with approval, so we went to Iraq with overwhelming support. I will remind you that Iran was on that list as well ;)

Valpo is correct.

[Valpo]

I have many....but one of my passions is educating people about whats REALLY going on in the world and our GOV. Not what the Govt controlled and scripted media tells us, but the the whole truth...or at least close enough we can all ask questions and get to the bottom of things...

so become a college professor or run for office, if even at the very local level. Whining on an online message board all the time is not going to make much of a difference, if any, at all.

[Evanescence]

so become a college professor or run for office, if even at the very local level. Whining on an online message board all the time is not going to make much of a difference, if any, at all.

I might just do that....then you can vote for me....and then when I get all the inside dirt on the GOV, we'll get together so I can show it all to you...

Heck, I won't even charge you for it...:P :P :P

[Evanescence]

More for Clemson and Valpo...and Bush defenders...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB129/index.htm

Washington D.C., 9 July 2004 - The CIA has decided to keep almost entirely secret the controversial October 2002 CIA intelligence estimate about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that is the subject of today's Senate Intelligence Committee report, according to the CIA's June 1, 2004 response to a Freedom of Information Act request from the National Security Archive.

The CIA's response included a copy of the estimate, NIE 2002-16HC, October 2002, Iraq's Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction, consisting almost entirely of whited-out pages. Only 14 of the 93 pages provided actually contained text, and all of the text except for the two title pages and the two pages listing National Intelligence Council members had previously been released in July 2003. At that time, CIA responded to the first round of controversy over the Niger yellowcake story by declassifying the "Key Findings" section of the estimate and a few additional paragraphs.

[Valpo]

I might just do that....then you can vote for me....and then when I get all the inside dirt on the GOV, we'll get together so I can show it all to you...

Heck, I won't even charge you for it...:P :P :P

well unless you ran for something like senator of my state or president i couldnt vote for you, but ill tell you what, if you run for office I will donate some kind of resources or monetary funding for your campaign

btw, im not some raging Bush lover, and I dont like being lumped into that category just because I dont believe in conspiracy theories. I have said many times here I believe the Iraq War was horribly mismanaged. What I think the joke here is, is saying he is not a Christian bc only God knows the hearts of men, and that I feel common sense debunks conspiracy theories. I know you would criticize Clinton too, because you're consistent if nothing else, but I want to know why our Jesuslove friend side steps the Clinton issue. Bill Clinton and many Democrats in office today signed the Regime Change Bill, which became the Regime Change Act upon passing and approval by both Houses of Congress and President Clinton's signature. So what gives here? He whimpered out and said this thread isn't about Mr. Clinton, but solely about President Bush. I do not think that is at all fair to lob things such as Bush intentionally lied about the WMD's intelligence just to go to war, when Clinton had the same exact intelligence and even acted upon it. Just mind boggling stuff really, then Jesuslove has the nerve to claim to be an independent. Clearly that is some partisan stuff.

[Jesuslove]

well unless you ran for something like senator of my state or president i couldnt vote for you, but ill tell you what, if you run for office I will donate some kind of resources or monetary funding for your campaign

btw, im not some raging Bush lover, and I dont like being lumped into that category just because I dont believe in conspiracy theories. I have said many times here I believe the Iraq War was horribly mismanaged. What I think the joke here is, is saying he is not a Christian bc only God knows the hearts of men, and that I feel common sense debunks conspiracy theories. I know you would criticize Clinton too, because you're consistent if nothing else, but I want to know why our Jesuslove friend side steps the Clinton issue. Bill Clinton and many Democrats in office today signed the Regime Change Bill, which became the Regime Change Act upon passing and approval by both Houses of Congress and President Clinton's signature. So what gives here? He whimpered out and said this thread isn't about Mr. Clinton, but solely about President Bush. I do not think that is at all fair to lob things such as Bush intentionally lied about the WMD's intelligence just to go to war, when Clinton had the same exact intelligence and even acted upon it. Just mind boggling stuff really, then Jesuslove has the nerve to claim to be an independent. Clearly that is some partisan stuff.

Valpo, I am an independent. I have voted for Democrats for President as many times as I've voted for Republicans. I have voted for Republican senators, Republican governors, etc. GWB's administration has really turned me off. I believe GWB and his administration did intentionally lie about WMD's. Clinton wasn't a perfect president, but he did more to build bridges than he did build nations. Clinton even today is working to make this world a better place through volunteerism and through his foundation. I doubt you will be able to say the same of Bush in 5 years. And please, keep away from the personal attacks. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't give you the right to say I whimpered out. Seriously, I thought a Christian man like yourself was above that.

[middletree]

I doubt that: at least I can speak for myself. I am not responsible for thousands of murders. I haven't lied to millions of people.

Do you like Michael Moore's documentaries?

[Valpo]

Valpo, I am an independent. I have voted for Democrats for President as many times as I've voted for Republicans. I have voted for Republican senators, Republican governors, etc. GWB's administration has really turned me off. I believe GWB and his administration did intentionally lie about WMD's. Clinton wasn't a perfect president, but he did more to build bridges than he did build nations. Clinton even today is working to make this world a better place through volunteerism and through his foundation. I doubt you will be able to say the same of Bush in 5 years. And please, keep away from the personal attacks. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't give you the right to say I whimpered out. Seriously, I thought a Christian man like yourself was above that.

personal attacks? you whimpered out! You STILL wont answer the question as to why Clinton lied about the WMD's too then. Because you know it alters your notion of Bush if you look at the facts that Clinton had the same exact intelligence and signed a Regime Change Bill. That is whimpering out, plain and simple. And Bush's father is doing plenty for the world too, he works alongside the much younger President Clinton. And in one breath you lob the Christian man argument at me bc I stated that you whimpered and in another you say "I doubt you will be able to say the same of Bush in 5 years." That's a joke, you have lobbed judgement after judgement at this President and then hold everyone else to some code of Christian conduct that you dont even abide by. So enough of the crying and answer my question about Clinton, or cut the garbage tossing at Mr. Bush.

[Jesuslove]

Do you like Michael Moore's documentaries?

not necessarily.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Uuhh.... news flash.... This war may be scriptural and necessary for the Last Days. Here's why I think that:

Focus on the Family interviewed author Joel C. Rosenberg earlier this week. He wrote a fictitious novel called The Ezekiel Option. He said that he finished writing that book on Sept. 11, 2001....

The book was a thriller about nuclear war between Israel and Iran, and he based it entirely on scripture, specifically, Ezekiel. There are many Christians who believe Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39 are a description of nuclear war between Israel and Iran. (For a really good read on this, see John Hagee's Jerusalem Countdown.) I think chapter 37 is a pretty dang good description of the Renaisance of Israel in 1948, myself.

Anyway, Rosenberg was spinning a tale based on this Scripture, and he found himself in a quandry. There was no mention of Iraq in the Scripture. So how does he get Saddam Hussein out of the picture? Rosenberg dreams up some kind of cataclismic terrorist attack on American soil which draws the US into a war with Iraq. (Not the World Trade Center, but I haven't read the book... yet...)

Now Rosenberg doesn't claim to be prophetic, he was just spinning a tale based on what he knows about world events and Scripture. But on the day he finished writing his book, the World Trade Center was demolished by terrorists, and before too long, the war really happened.

If you'd like to see more about Rosenberg, I found this:
http://www.joelrosenberg.blogspo t.com/

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!! I think they get so wrapped up in their own little try to impress each other views the don't see the big picture. Check out his latest book Epicenter. Very good book.

[Jesuslove]

personal attacks? you whimpered out! You STILL wont answer the question as to why Clinton lied about the WMD's too then. Because you know it alters your notion of Bush if you look at the facts that Clinton had the same exact intelligence and signed a Regime Change Bill. That is whimpering out, plain and simple. And Bush's father is doing plenty for the world too, he works alongside the much younger President Clinton. And in one breath you lob the Christian man argument at me bc I stated that you whimpered and in another you say "I doubt you will be able to say the same of Bush in 5 years." That's a joke, you have lobbed judgement after judgement at this President and then hold everyone else to some code of Christian conduct that you dont even abide by. So enough of the crying and answer my question about Clinton, or cut the garbage tossing at Mr. Bush.

please. President Clinton did not invade Iraq. He tried to negotiate. He was much more of a diplomat than Bush has ever been. I am judging a man based on the job at which he has so failed. It is my right as an American citizen. Because I don't blindly follow the Bushes like you, you pass judgement on me. Shame!

[Valpo]

please. President Clinton did not invade Iraq. He tried to negotiate. He was much more of a diplomat than Bush has ever been. I am judging a man based on the job at which he has so failed. It is my right as an American citizen. Because I don't blindly follow the Bushes like you, you pass judgement on me. Shame!

more judgement! I just got done saying to E that I am not some raging Bush lover. I have pointed out his failures, how blind I must me. YET, Clinton BOMBED Iraq and signed a regime change act and said that Saddam had WMD's! So don't sit here and pass judgements on me, the president, or anyone else when you are purposely ignoring half of the information because you know it will turn your point of view upside down.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

GWB should have pressured the UN to enforce the conditions..

Never thought I would hear or see me do this, but I agree with you 100% JL. Unfortunately, I don't think the UN serves a useful purpose.

Instead, he made claims of WMD's that were never found. The majority of US citizens wouldn't have supported the war, had they not believed there was a threat and a link between Iraq and 9/11. If GWB said from the beginning there was no link, most Americans wouldn't have supported this war.

I'm not so sure about this. The American public, in addition to being poorly informed, are very fickle. I personally believe Iraq was and still is a haven for terrorist.

[Jason]

It amazes me that most US citizens don't see Bush as evil, while the rest of the world, including millions of Christians, abhor us because of Bush's actions.

No, I hate no one. Sorry. I like some more than others, but I hate no one.

Aren't these contradictory statements?

[Jesuslove]

Aren't these contradictory statements?

not at all Jason. Just because I believe GWB is evil, doesn't mean I hate him. I don't.

[Jason]

not at all Jason. Just because I believe GWB is evil, doesn't mean I hate him. I don't.

Aren't we supposed to hate that which is evil?

[Jesuslove]

Aren't we supposed to hate that which is evil?

We are called to love all people, or at the very least, not hate. I do not hate GWB, though I think some of his actions have been evil.

[Jason]

We are called to love all people, or at the very least, not hate. I do not hate GWB, though I think some of his actions have been evil.

So GWB isn't evil, only some of his actions? Because if he is evil, you should hate him.

[Jesuslove]

So GWB isn't evil, only some of his actions? Because if he is evil, you should hate him.

No. You've never heard of, "hate the sin, love the sinner"?

[Jason]

No. You've never heard of, "hate the sin, love the sinner"?

The point is GWB isn't evil. Only Satan is evil. And we should hate Satan. You may consider some of GWB's actions evil, but he himself is no more evil than you or me.

[Jesuslove]

The point is GWB isn't evil. Only Satan is evil. And we should hate Satan. You may consider some of GWB's actions evil, but he himself is no more evil than you or me.

You are entitled to your opinion Jason. I'm not personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians. I believe GWB is. I didn't start a war. GWB did based on bad intelligence. So do I think GWB is more evil than me? Yes, I do.

[Jason]

You are entitled to your opinion Jason. I'm not personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians. I believe GWB is. I didn't start a war. GWB did based on bad intelligence. So do I think GWB is more evil than me? Yes, I do.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

You, me, and GWB have sinned grievously against the Almighty God. Every time we have gone our way instead of God's way we have shaken our fist in His face. The three of us deserve hell.

[Jesuslove]

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

You, me, and GWB have sinned grievously against the Almighty God. Every time we have gone our way instead of God's way we have shaken our fist in His face. The three of us deserve hell.

I don't agree. Just because we all fall short of God's glory, doesn't mean all our sin is equal. Your sin isn't the same as Hitler's sin.

[Jason]

I don't agree. Just because we all fall short of God's glory, doesn't mean all our sin is equal. Your sin isn't the same as Hitler's sin.

Without God's grace, I'd be sitting right next to Hitler.

[SonflowerGurl]

What Jason said...

Jesuslove, you are setting a very high standard of judgement by which you will be judged by... What do you think of the Apostle Paul? He persecuted and killed Christians...

[Evanescence]

All this bickering about who sins more than whom and who's a better sinner than whom isn't helping the problem or prosecuting those responsible for whats been happening to America.

God teaches forgive and forget, so why don't we just let anyone do whatever they want?

We have the right to observe, critisize and remove the corrupt from office. This without bias or prejudice. End of sentence.

[SonflowerGurl]

There are consquences to breaking the law...certainly. But to determine anyone (including GWB) as "evil" is setting a very high standard to be judged by ....in fact, the measure you judge is the measure that will be used against you.

[Jason]

But to determine anyone (including GWB) as "evil" is setting a very high standard to be judged by ....in fact, the measure you judge is the measure that will be used against you.

And that was my sole point.

[Evanescence]

This just in...

Today, GWB was at the NSA pushing for more surveillance on the "war on terror"

Its called, the Protect America Bill....I think. Anyone know about this?

The law expires in 4 months but GWB wants it permanent. It gives the NSA full permission to tap emails and phones of Americans that may be contacting terrorists. Some in Washington believe it could be abused...used for domestic spying.

I can't imagine that....:rolleyes:

[Jesuslove]

All this bickering about who sins more than whom and who's a better sinner than whom isn't helping the problem or prosecuting those responsible for whats been happening to America.

God teaches forgive and forget, so why don't we just let anyone do whatever they want?

We have the right to observe, critisize and remove the corrupt from office. This without bias or prejudice. End of sentence.

Amen Ev... This is what I was trying to teach Jason and Sonflower

[SonflowerGurl]

I guess we are just unteachable....sometimes we really believe what we believe.


btw, who asked to be taught by you? I generally choose who teaches me a little more throughly. Should we thank you for condesending down to us? :confused:

[Jesuslove]

I guess we are just unteachable....sometimes we really believe what we believe.


btw, who asked to be taught by you? I generally choose who teaches me a little more throughly. Should we thank you for condesending down to us? :confused:

so why are you then so critical of what I believe. we get caught up debating severity of sin. Meanwhile, GWB is seeking permission to spy on our personal emails and tap our phone lines. Where is the outrage?

[Evanescence]

so why are you then so critical of what I believe. we get caught up debating severity of sin. Meanwhile, GWB is seeking permission to spy on our personal emails and tap our phone lines. Where is the outrage?

There will be no outrage....the masses believe in the Boogieman (Al Queda and Bin Laden) and are voluntarily giving up their liberties so they can be "safe"....

Meanwhile the enemy is already here....

What till the next false-flagger hits. People will be begging the GOV to chip and track them....so they can be safe and have their American dreams...

[SonflowerGurl]

so why are you then so critical of what I believe. we get caught up debating severity of sin. Meanwhile, GWB is seeking permission to spy on our personal emails and tap our phone lines. Where is the outrage?


I wasn't critical, I simply stated the measure that the Bible says we all will be measured by...if your a Christian it is something to take seriously, if you aren't a Christian ...well, I can't make you believe what the Bible says...then it becomes your opinion against mine. I simply believe the Bible.

[Evanescence]

I wasn't critical, I simply stated the measure that the Bible says we all will be measured by...if your a Christian it is something to take seriously, if you aren't a Christian ...well, I can't make you believe what the Bible says...then it becomes your opinion against mine. I simply believe the Bible.

Sun, I for one don't look down on folk who support the Govt or the Pres. Its what we are taught to do and some don't look deep into things like some of us do. I'll never be one to say I have things all figured out 100%, but I'd challenge you to look deep into all aspects of the world today...especially here in the US.

Lastly, don't let evil manipulate you (or any of you) by using the Bible against you. We have the right to observe and make sound judgements against the actions of our leaders. If it brings GOOD, then its certainly a good thing.

[Valpo]

There will be no outrage....the masses believe in the Boogieman (Al Queda and Bin Laden) and are voluntarily giving up their liberties so they can be "safe"....

Meanwhile the enemy is already here....

What till the next false-flagger hits. People will be begging the GOV to chip and track them....so they can be safe and have their American dreams...

boogiemen?? that's absurd E, really please, go get some fresh air, I think sitting at your computer researching conspiracy theories is getting to your head. Boogiemen, that's unbelievable. But because I do believe in the "boogiemen" I guess I'm just some sheep of the Bush administration. Here's where your little ally in Bush hating may part from you though. I remember seeing Jesuslove saying going to Afghanistan was right and everything since then has taken the focus off of the real war on terror( which, minus the unfounded personal attacks, is a fair criticism).

[Valpo]

Sun, I for one don't look down on folk who support the Govt or the Pres. Its what we are taught to do and some don't look deep into things like some of us do. I'll never be one to say I have things all figured out 100%, but I'd challenge you to look deep into all aspects of the world today...especially here in the US.

Lastly, don't let evil manipulate you (or any of you) by using the Bible against you. We have the right to observe and make sound judgements against the actions of our leaders. If it brings GOOD, then its certainly a good thing.

Sonflower,

You couldn't be any more correct, there is no difference in sin. The wages of sin is death, and me saying I hate someone or looking at a woman with lust damns be to hell, as does Hitler murdering untold numbers of people damns him to hell. Thank God I have Jesus Christ! And don't let E tell you he doesn't look down on "folk" who don't think the gov't is nearly as out of control as our friend here thinks. He does, he calls us sheep and claims we believe in boogieman theories of al-Qaeda and bin Laden.

[Jesuslove]

I wasn't critical, I simply stated the measure that the Bible says we all will be measured by...if your a Christian it is something to take seriously, if you aren't a Christian ...well, I can't make you believe what the Bible says...then it becomes your opinion against mine. I simply believe the Bible.

The Bible doesn't say not to question leaders. It is important as citizens to question leaders. Our leaders are public servants. So are you suggesting anyone who questioned Hitler was wrong?

[cheewiee]

The Bible doesn't say not to question leaders. It is important as citizens to question leaders. Our leaders are public servants. So are you suggesting anyone who questioned Hitler was wrong?

Questioning leaders is one thing... Comparing them to a genious/madman that exterminated 12 million people systematiclly is something different..

[Jesuslove]

Questioning leaders is one thing... Comparing them to a genious/madman that exterminated 12 million people systematiclly is something different..

a genious?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=genious

[cheewiee]

a genious?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=genious

genius... sorry...

But yes, dispite the Final Solution, he turned a broken, defeated, bankrupt Germany into a world power in just a few years, and was only most historians say, about 20 miles away from Global Domination....

[Jesuslove]

genius... sorry...

But yes, dispite the Final Solution, he turned a broken, defeated, bankrupt Germany into a world power in just a few years, and was only most historians say, about 20 miles away from Global Domination....

read above. Sonflowergirl and Jason would disagree with you. They feel sin is sin, and no sin is better or worse than other sin.... in their opinion. So you and I are no better than Hitler.

[cheewiee]

read above. Sonflowergirl and Jason would disagree with you. They feel sin is sin, and no sin is better or worse than other sin.... in their opinion. So you and I are no better than Hitler.

I would agree.. you and I are no better than Hitler in God's eyes...

[Evanescence]

I would agree.. you and I are no better than Hitler in God's eyes...

I agree with this in so much as we all fall short of the glory of God, but I do believe some actions are worse in his eyes. I do believe Proverbs or Psalms speaks of degrees of sin, somewhere. Although scripturally it may be a hard sell, I do believe that God looks at degrees of sin, based on many things of course.

Pastors, leaders and politicians are to set an example and high standard, so they're under constant scrutiny.

[middletree]

I would agree.. you and I are no better than Hitler in God's eyes...

Substitute the word "were" for "are" and I will agree with this statement. Now, in God's eyes, He sees the righteousness of Christ when He sees me.

[cheewiee]

Substitute the word "were" for "are" and I will agree with this statement. Now, in God's eyes, He sees the righteousness of Christ when He sees me.

You are right... My bad...

[clemsontigers23]

I guess we are just unteachable....sometimes we really believe what we believe.


btw, who asked to be taught by you? I generally choose who teaches me a little more throughly. Should we thank you for condesending down to us? :confused:

Exactly. I don't want some people here teaching me anything.

[Jesuslove]

More for Clemson and Valpo...and Bush defenders...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB129/index.htm

Washington D.C., 9 July 2004 - The CIA has decided to keep almost entirely secret the controversial October 2002 CIA intelligence estimate about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that is the subject of today's Senate Intelligence Committee report, according to the CIA's June 1, 2004 response to a Freedom of Information Act request from the National Security Archive.

The CIA's response included a copy of the estimate, NIE 2002-16HC, October 2002, Iraq's Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction, consisting almost entirely of whited-out pages. Only 14 of the 93 pages provided actually contained text, and all of the text except for the two title pages and the two pages listing National Intelligence Council members had previously been released in July 2003. At that time, CIA responded to the first round of controversy over the Niger yellowcake story by declassifying the "Key Findings" section of the estimate and a few additional paragraphs.

hmmmmmm.....