Gen Petraeus addresses Iraq...

[Evanescence]

Just watched some of it....

What a circus. They can't even get the Mic to work or find the book with his findings in it. Then a pile of protestors were removed.

It looks like he says the surge is working.....

PT Barnum would have helped...lol

[Jesuslove]

It looks like he says the surge is working.....


This is a direct contractiction to what Joe Biden claimed Petraeus would say. Biden was on Meet the Press yesterday

[Valpo]

This is a direct contractiction to what Joe Biden claimed Petraeus would say. Biden was on Meet the Press yesterday

I missed Russert yesterday, what did Senator Biden say?

And you know what, we had better hope the surge is working. Not accusing you E or you Jesuslove of rooting for it not to work from my interactions with you two I can tell you are good and decent people with just another point of view...but I get the feeling and maybe it's because im on a college campus, but I get the feeling that people are actually rooting against the surge to work. Some people have such a deep rooted hatred for President Bush that they want to see the initiative fail or write off Petraues as some mouthpiece for the administration. he adamantly answered to that notion today by saying this is his own written testimony and he didnt check with the pentagon or white house to see if it was ok with them. But I hope and pray that the surge is working and can continue to work, and not because I like seeing Americans kill forgeigners, but because if it is working we can hold out for the hope that democracy can work there and the good and decent people in that region can tell the terrorists to go back to their caves. I really do feel that at the end of the day (whenever that day may be) that people will choose life over death and opportunity over terrorism.

[cheewiee]

I missed Russert yesterday, what did Senator Biden say?

And you know what, we had better hope the surge is working. Not accusing you E or you Jesuslove of rooting for it not to work from my interactions with you two I can tell you are good and decent people with just another point of view...but I get the feeling and maybe it's because im on a college campus, but I get the feeling that people are actually rooting against the surge to work. Some people have such a deep rooted hatred for President Bush that they want to see the initiative fail or write off Petraues as some mouthpiece for the administration. he adamantly answered to that notion today by saying this is his own written testimony and he didnt check with the pentagon or white house to see if it was ok with them. But I hope and pray that the surge is working and can continue to work, and not because I like seeing Americans kill forgeigners, but because if it is working we can hold out for the hope that democracy can work there and the good and decent people in that region can tell the terrorists to go back to their caves. I really do feel that at the end of the day (whenever that day may be) that people will choose life over death and opportunity over terrorism.

Well said, it is in the best interest for the Iraqi People, and the American Republic for this troop surge to work.

[Jesuslove]

I missed Russert yesterday, what did Senator Biden say?

And you know what, we had better hope the surge is working. Not accusing you E or you Jesuslove of rooting for it not to work from my interactions with you two I can tell you are good and decent people with just another point of view...but I get the feeling and maybe it's because im on a college campus, but I get the feeling that people are actually rooting against the surge to work. Some people have such a deep rooted hatred for President Bush that they want to see the initiative fail or write off Petraues as some mouthpiece for the administration. he adamantly answered to that notion today by saying this is his own written testimony and he didnt check with the pentagon or white house to see if it was ok with them. But I hope and pray that the surge is working and can continue to work, and not because I like seeing Americans kill forgeigners, but because if it is working we can hold out for the hope that democracy can work there and the good and decent people in that region can tell the terrorists to go back to their caves. I really do feel that at the end of the day (whenever that day may be) that people will choose life over death and opportunity over terrorism.

I just hope and pray our troops come home safe and that the suffering of the Iraqi citizens ends.

Joe Biden just got back from Iraq last week and said yesterday that the surge wasn't working. He said we need to divide Iraq into three separate countries. He also said that we need to start bringing troops home. He does believe in funding the troops and the purchase of heavily armored vehilces until every troop leaves Iraq. Joe Biden is one of the most experienced and respected men on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (presently he is the chair). I have heard Joe Biden speak before. His comments are more substantative, and in my opinion, less along party lines.

[cheewiee]

I just hope and pray our troops come home safe and that the suffering of the Iraqi citizens ends.

Joe Biden just got back from Iraq last week and said yesterday that the surge wasn't working. He said we need to divide Iraq into three separate countries. He also said that we need to start bringing troops home. He does believe in funding the troops and the purchase of heavily armored vehilces until every troop leaves Iraq. Joe Biden is one of the most experienced and respected men on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (presently he is the chair). I have heard Joe Biden speak before. His comments are more substantative, and in my opinion, less along party lines.

Anyone who believes that the solution is to divide Iraq into three nations is a foreign policy moron.

Lets look at the three countries that would be formed..

Kurdistan, Firs the Turks wouldn't allow it. And it would quickly become part of Turkey, and the Kurds would continue to be oppressed as an ethinc people.

Shia Iraq would wind up with the oil reserves that wouldn't be taken over by Turkey, leaving Sunny Iraq starving in the Desert..

Biden is a partisian hack. Who knows less about the affairs in the Middle East than Bush does.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

II get the feeling and maybe it's because im on a college campus, but I get the feeling that people are actually rooting against the surge to work. Some people have such a deep rooted hatred for President Bush that they want to see the initiative fail or write off Petraues as some mouthpiece for the administration.

I hear ya. I'm against the war in Iraq, and though I'm still not convinced that it's working, I'd change my mind about it if more obvious victories were indicated. But there are people who are basically against anything Bush does. Some will blame Bush for the stranded polar bear on an iceberg even.

But what I don't understand, is that we're looking at the IEDs and pointing to Iran, while the suicide bombers come from Saudi Arabia.

[Jesuslove]

Anyone who believes that the solution is to divide Iraq into three nations is a foreign policy moron.

Biden is a partisian hack. Who knows less about the affairs in the Middle East than Bush does.

Two things....

I'm beginning to think three separate countries may work, with secure borders and buyoffs from Iraq's present neighbors. These three groups do not get along, and I fear a unified government won't work there.

As for Bush vs. Biden.... Time has proven that Bush's policies aren't working. We've lost nearly 3,700 soldiers, most of which have been lost after Bush claimed victory in the war. It's time to change course in Iraq. I'm not saying that Biden's solution is the only option, but is one option we should consider. It is time for both sides to work together. Partisan politics need to be put aside so that we can bring home our troops ASAP.

[HotWireD]

US surge plan in Iraq 'working'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6986461.stm

The military objectives of the US troop surge in Iraq "are largely being met", the top US military commander in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, has said.

...

Gen Petraeus told the joint House Armed Services and Foreign Affairs committees that troop numbers could be reduced to pre-surge level by next summer without jeopardising the security situation in Iraq.

But he warned that "a premature draw-down of our forces would likely have devastating consequences".

Gen Petraeus said the number of what he described as security incidents had declined significantly since the surge began. The number of civilian deaths had also gone down, he said.

...

"While noting that the situation in Iraq remains complex, difficult and sometimes downright frustrating, I also believe that it is possible to achieve our objectives in Iraq over time, although doing so will be neither quick, nor easy," he said.

Sounds like it is going to take some more time before a noticeable improvement can be observed.

[Valpo]

I for the life of me never understood Mission Accomplished...because since the evening of september 11, 2001 he said this would all be a real long haul...and on the evenof the invasion of iraq he repeated that. But although not going as far as calling Biden a partisan hack, I tend to agree with Cheewie's assessment. The Kurds most definitely want their own country, and if turkey would actually let them, it would be wonderful, but they wouldnt. And Im tired of treating the entire region as though they are uncivilized animals. The Northeast has about as much in common with the Bible Belt as the Shiites and Shia's and Kurds have in common with each other. The difference is as nasty and divided the USA may be we dont kill each other senselessy like that or talk about dividing our country. I'm sure some knuckleheads clowned around about that after bush was elected twice, but never ever taken as a serious thought. These people are Iraqi's and do share a common heritage. They're all Muslim too for crying out loud! Over here we have such a wide array of religions and we arent mutilating each other. So this is why I think we need to work and fight to keep this country unified. These are adult humans, not adult animals. They can live together.

[Evanescence]

Bidens a DEM idiot and would speak against any REP thinking or person no matter what.

I DO hope it works. Despite why/how we got there, it will be the best for all.

But, I still believe we went there with the intention of staying there in some way...to westernize Iraq and/or the Middle East. Or at least try to.

McDonalds in Bagdad anyone?

[Valpo]

Bidens a DEM idiot and would speak against any REP thinking or person no matter what.

I DO hope it works. Despite why/how we got there, it will be the best for all.

But, I still believe we went there with the intention of staying there in some way...to westernize Iraq and/or the Middle East. Or at least try to.

McDonalds in Bagdad anyone?

I fully agree we went there to give them a liberal democracy which is a trademark of the west. Liberal democracy allows for many cultures to be represented as well as religions. So I think a western style liberal democracy is better than the bloodbath that existed even prior to our appearance.

[Jesuslove]

These are adult humans, not adult animals. They can live together.

If they can live together, then why hasn't it happened yet? The situation reminds me of Yugoslavia. The various religious factions hated each other. Under their dictator (Tito in Yugoslavia and Hussein in Iraq), the factions lived in fear, but co-existed. Once the feared leader was removed, the religious factions turned on each other. The Serbs ("Christians") were brutal to the Croats (Catholics) and Bosnians (Muslims). Now they co-exist as independent nations. Some of the countries which were previously part of Yugoslavia now are applying for entrance into the EU.

[Jesuslove]

I fully agree we went there to give them a liberal democracy which is a trademark of the west. Liberal democracy allows for many cultures to be represented as well as religions. So I think a western style liberal democracy is better than the bloodbath that existed even prior to our appearance.

More civilians have died since we invaded Iraq, than Saddam ever ordered killed.

[Evanescence]

More civilians have died since we invaded Iraq, than Saddam ever ordered killed.

Yep, and the true reason why we invaded Iraq remains a mystery...

[Jesuslove]

Yep, and the true reason why we invaded Iraq remains a mystery...

well sort of..... I have a few guesses.

[clemsontigers23]

I missed Russert yesterday, what did Senator Biden say?

And you know what, we had better hope the surge is working. Not accusing you E or you Jesuslove of rooting for it not to work from my interactions with you two I can tell you are good and decent people with just another point of view...but I get the feeling and maybe it's because im on a college campus, but I get the feeling that people are actually rooting against the surge to work. Some people have such a deep rooted hatred for President Bush that they want to see the initiative fail or write off Petraues as some mouthpiece for the administration. he adamantly answered to that notion today by saying this is his own written testimony and he didnt check with the pentagon or white house to see if it was ok with them. But I hope and pray that the surge is working and can continue to work, and not because I like seeing Americans kill forgeigners, but because if it is working we can hold out for the hope that democracy can work there and the good and decent people in that region can tell the terrorists to go back to their caves. I really do feel that at the end of the day (whenever that day may be) that people will choose life over death and opportunity over terrorism.

I think you said it best. Most people against the war have never been in Iraq...here we get the report from the guy calling the shots over there, and the troops are starting to get pretty upset over the media making things out to be a lot worse than they really are. The surge is working...the most dangerous areas in Baghdad are being secured and people are finally able to walk the streets with some feeling of security.

It's almost like it's "cool" to hate Bush...how quickly people forget that every one of us rallied behind him after 9/11. Don't believe the media is all I'm saying...the media is so liberal these days that it's almost impossible to find an unbiased news source. Bush said it could be 10 years or even more, and every single one of us heard that and yet gave him our full support. We need to get back to that patriotism and realize that Bush is our Christian brother...he has fought for Christian morals and has brought the mention of God back into the presidential lingo. I'm sick of hearing people say "I hate Bush" and when you ask them why they give you an answer like "because he's stupid." Okay then...hope you don't vote in the next election.

It's sad that all of us eat up whatever the media tells us...we forget that the media has an agenda as well.

[Valpo]

More civilians have died since we invaded Iraq, than Saddam ever ordered killed.

They killed each other too, wasnt just Saddam killing them. This is what I was getting at. Plus, not to devalue any human life, but some of those stats are quite bloated.

[cheewiee]

Two things....

I'm beginning to think three separate countries may work, with secure borders and buyoffs from Iraq's present neighbors. These three groups do not get along, and I fear a unified government won't work there.

As for Bush vs. Biden.... Time has proven that Bush's policies aren't working. We've lost nearly 3,700 soldiers, most of which have been lost after Bush claimed victory in the war. It's time to change course in Iraq. I'm not saying that Biden's solution is the only option, but is one option we should consider. It is time for both sides to work together. Partisan politics need to be put aside so that we can bring home our troops ASAP.

Turkey as EMPHATICLY stated that they will not tolerate a Kurdistan, and would invade and occupy any such country.

The Sunnies would continue this bloody civil war in ordre to gain some control over some oil fields.

Three Countries will not work.

[Jesuslove]

They killed each other too, wasnt just Saddam killing them. This is what I was getting at. Plus, not to devalue any human life, but some of those stats are quite bloated.

All the more reason not to try to form a unified nation.

[Jesuslove]

Turkey as EMPHATICLY stated that they will not tolerate a Kurdistan, and would invade and occupy any such country.

The Sunnies would continue this bloody civil war in ordre to gain some control over some oil fields.

Three Countries will not work.

Instead of telling me what others have said or would do, why isn't GWB there negotiating with Iraq's neighbors to ensure support for a single plan for success. We need to get all the neighbors together and figure out a solution that will result in minimal bloodshed.

Turkey is part of NATO. I can't see them bucking America and invading Iraq. I know they would not be thrilled with a Kurdish state, but maybe if GWB sat down with the leaders, they could come up with a solution which might work.

[Valpo]

If they can live together, then why hasn't it happened yet? The situation reminds me of Yugoslavia. The various religious factions hated each other. Under their dictator (Tito in Yugoslavia and Hussein in Iraq), the factions lived in fear, but co-existed. Once the feared leader was removed, the religious factions turned on each other. The Serbs ("Christians") were brutal to the Croats (Catholics) and Bosnians (Muslims). Now they co-exist as independent nations. Some of the countries which were previously part of Yugoslavia now are applying for entrance into the EU.

Why has isnt it happened yet? We've given them four years to try! not even! They were oppressed, suppressed, murdered, etc for decades before this. Plus you have no idea how many people Saddam killed or didn't kill, people who "disappeared" were killed too. Not too mention Saddam gave a ton of money to Hamas, so no Saddam has had a hand in more killings than we have. But even if he hasn't, what's the point? You're trying to make a point based on partisan politics and emotion. I think it's dehumanizing to give up after 3 years of democracy in Iraq because they arent getting along yet. We have to educate and connect with the upcoming generation that will lead in the future. I completely doubt the current generation would change at all, it's about the future, remember that corny phrase something like, "The children are our future." No difference in Iraq. Their children are their future and there will be struggle between those being taught by terrorist thugs that that life(death) is better and between those liberal democrats (small "l" and small "d") who say and know a western-style liberal democracy is better for the people. Come on, even in the Bible we see God's people not getting along, and killing each other. Did God give up on the Jews because they werent getting along? of course not! Did God give up on the new church because Paul and Peter disagreed with each other in Jerusalem? No way! The Brits and Americans didn't get along and had a war over it, should we have given up then? Heck, our country had a civil war with itself over slavery! ("states rights" but let's be honest) Did this country give up then? Well you know what, we just dont get along may as well split. Yeah the South tried that and Lincoln refused to believe this country couldn't stand and was that barbaric! Yeah Europe didn't get along in two world wars so we should have just let the Nazi's have their own country and do what they wanted because you know what? Not any of our business! Maybe Imperial Japan should have been allowed to usurp island and country after country too because no use in trying to make people get along! With thoughts like these we wouldnt have seen the deliverance that was at Normandy on D-Day from the greatest generation. And you know what? I think a greater generation lay ahead. Educate these kids in Iraq, present them with the opportunity of life and freedom, becsause theyve never had it so of course they have no idea what to do with it. It's like the college kid who goes away to school after their parents had a tight leash on them for 18 years. A lot of kids go wild because they have no clue how to deal with this new found freedom. I say give the Iraqi's Freedom and I have faith in their humanity, for they have the same Maker as me, and Ir efuse to dumb them down and believe this cant work. Why isn't it working you ask after democracy hasnt even been up and running for three years over there. Give it time, and yes unfortunately blood will be shed, on both sides and its awful. But show me the alternative and how much better that is? Why would it make you feel better because the "nasty Americans" wouldnt have their hands in it? What a cop out! I'd rather we have our hands in some blood to work for better than our hands in no blood and sitting over here watching the world mutilate itself. Would it make you feel better if we did pull out and a govt like Iran or worse or like Saddam or worse took over and continued the bloodbath, but that's ok because we're not there! It wouldnt make me feel better, it make me more sick to my stomach than I already am.

I dont believe in neoconservatism, I dont believe in Bush, I dont believe in Republicanism, I believe in Jesus Christ who Paul tells us created us all. If I have the same Creator as Mohammed in Iraq, it's in that hope that I believe the bloodbath will come to an end.

[cheewiee]

Instead of telling me what others have said or would do, why isn't GWB there negotiating with Iraq's neighbors to ensure support for a single plan for success. We need to get all the neighbors together and figure out a solution that will result in minimal bloodshed.

Turkey is part of NATO. I can't see them bucking America and invading Iraq. I know they would not be thrilled with a Kurdish state, but maybe if GWB sat down with the leaders, they could come up with a solution which might work.

There is a LARGE Kurdish population in South East Turkey that won't be content as being a minority in Turkey any longer, they will and have stated that should Kurdistan come into fruition, they will sceede from Turkey and join this country.

Turkey will not have it. They have already stated so. Turkey at this point is the only balanced Middle Eastern Country, to make Iraq three nations would tip the balance and Turkey may follow along to fundamentalism like Iran...

[Evanescence]

I think you said it best. Most people against the war have never been in Iraq...here we get the report from the guy calling the shots over there, and the troops are starting to get pretty upset over the media making things out to be a lot worse than they really are. The surge is working...the most dangerous areas in Baghdad are being secured and people are finally able to walk the streets with some feeling of security.

It's almost like it's "cool" to hate Bush...how quickly people forget that every one of us rallied behind him after 9/11. Don't believe the media is all I'm saying...the media is so liberal these days that it's almost impossible to find an unbiased news source. Bush said it could be 10 years or even more, and every single one of us heard that and yet gave him our full support. We need to get back to that patriotism and realize that Bush is our Christian brother...he has fought for Christian morals and has brought the mention of God back into the presidential lingo. I'm sick of hearing people say "I hate Bush" and when you ask them why they give you an answer like "because he's stupid." Okay then...hope you don't vote in the next election.

It's sad that all of us eat up whatever the media tells us...we forget that the media has an agenda as well.

Despite the Bush bashing, the media is programmed by the Govt. Look close and you'll see it.

Second, many of us were NOT in favor of this war and were suspiscious of it from the get-go. We had a VP over stepping his bounds, selling this war and a double talker, Bush pushing as well.

The bottom line is this:

1. Iraq did NOTHING to us directly, to provoke this.

2. We're not the policemen of the world. Who died and left us boss?

3. There were no WMDs and even if there were, we had NO right to invade and occupy a country unless attacked.

4. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. (despite CT's)

5. There are other countries that had brutal dictators, why not invade them? IE; N. Korea, Cuba, China etc

6. PNAC officials were pushing the Pentagon and even Clinton to take out Saddam as early as 1997. This is confirmed. The Pentagon was working on it BEFORE Bush got in.

They found the perfect clueless putz and his sinister VP to carry out the deed. The deed was done with full intention of staying there forever. This is why we have bases there. We also have interests in the oil...which is no surprise.

7. 500,000 or more Iraqi citizens are dead from this war. Their blood is on the hands of Bush, Cheney, Rummy and the rest of this administration of madness. Not to mention the dead and mamed Americans.

We were duped and will be there forever. The cause for Vietnam was pretty much a false-flagger and many feel the same about this war. There's WAY more here than meets the eye, but it will come out in the future. We should believe NOTHING they say.....on either side of the aisle.

Crap always rises to the top....:mad: :mad: :mad:

[bdfwinn]

The General looked head and shoulders above those incompetent politicians. Like Ev said it was a zoo I saw the chairmonkey trying to find out where the reports were and get the mic fixed. And another thing who let those protesters in the room? You are not allowed in hearing rooms if you are in a protest group or are holding signs. I'll bet some Bush haters on staff at the house let them in.

the whole thing is a crazy mess. They pretty much tried to shame the general.
They shamed themselves.
Bill

[Jesuslove]

There is a LARGE Kurdish population in South East Turkey that won't be content as being a minority in Turkey any longer, they will and have stated that should Kurdistan come into fruition, they will sceede from Turkey and join this country.

Turkey will not have it. They have already stated so. Turkey at this point is the only balanced Middle Eastern Country, to make Iraq three nations would tip the balance and Turkey may follow along to fundamentalism like Iran...

Well without support and buy in from Iraq's neighbors (including Iran, Syria and Turkey) on our eventual plan, it is bound to fail. We can't do this alone. We need Iraq's neighbors on board.

[Jesuslove]

They found the perfect clueless putz and his sinister VP to carry out the deed. The deed was done with full intention of staying there forever. This is why we have bases there. We also have interests in the oil...which is no surprise.

500,000 or more Iraqi citizens are dead from this war. Their blood is on the hands of Bush, Cheney, Rummy and the rest of this administration of madness. Not to mention the dead and mamed Americans.

Crap always rises to the top....:mad: :mad: :mad:

That about says it all. It was pure evil which brought us into Iraq. We had NO right!

[Valpo]

The General looked head and shoulders above those incompetent politicians. Like Ev said it was a zoo I saw the chairmonkey trying to find out where the reports were and get the mic fixed. And another thing who let those protesters in the room? You are not allowed in hearing rooms if you are in a protest group or are holding signs. I'll bet some Bush haters on staff at the house let them in.

the whole thing is a crazy mess. They pretty much tried to shame the general.
They shamed themselves.
Bill

really makes you wish Jesus would just return now, doesnt it?

[Jesuslove]

really makes you wish Jesus would just return now, doesnt it?

yes! we can't seem to create peace in the world on our own. somehow I think Jesus would chastise Mr. Bush and/or us for starting a war, or for not speaking out against it.

[Valpo]

yes! we can't seem to create peace in the world on our own. somehow I think Jesus would chastise Mr. Bush and/or us for starting a war, or for not speaking out against it.

how good of you to think of someone elses sins when you hear the Gospel proclaimed. Jesus would chastise President Bush but not Saddam, not Osama, not Aminajead, He would chastise President Bush but not Barbara Boxer who joyously proclaims shes for abortions, God would chastise President Bush but not Hillary Clinton, not John Edwards, not Bill Clinton, not anyone else unless they are involved with the current American Administration. Truth is we all deserve the chastisement and abandonment of God, but God laid upon Him the iniquity of us all so that we shall be free from sin. It's because of this BS, and I dont mean war, but it's because of political partisanship that I have no desire to be involved in the political realm. God has rescued me from that and has called me to carry His Gospel to the lost. I Thank God for that everyday.

[clemsontigers23]

how good of you to think of someone elses sins when you hear the Gospel proclaimed. Jesus would chastise President Bush but not Saddam, not Osama, not Aminajead, He would chastise President Bush but not Barbara Boxer who joyously proclaims shes for abortions, God would chastise President Bush but not Hillary Clinton, not John Edwards, not Bill Clinton, not anyone else unless they are involved with the current American Administration. Truth is we all deserve the chastisement and abandonment of God, but God laid upon Him the iniquity of us all so that we shall be free from sin. It's because of this BS, and I dont mean war, but it's because of political partisanship that I have no desire to be involved in the political realm. God has rescued me from that and has called me to carry His Gospel to the lost. I Thank God for that everyday.

Amazing how people forget President Bush is a devout Christian who has done more for Christians than any other president ever has. I think God would welcome George Bush into His Kingdom and say "Well done, faithful servant."

In more positive news, both Dems and GOP have joined together to blast a MoveOn.org anti-Petreus ad. It's good to see Dems not embracing this childish hate.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/index.html?iref=mpstoryvi ew

[Valpo]

Amazing how people forget President Bush is a devout Christian who has done more for Christians than any other president ever has. I think God would welcome George Bush into His Kingdom and say "Well done, faithful servant."


I agree, just as I think God would welcome Obama in his arms with the same words, or the Clintons, or Carter, etc. We make mistakes, thank God it is by faith we are saved.

[Evanescence]

Amazing how people forget President Bush is a devout Christian who has done more for Christians than any other president ever has. I think God would welcome George Bush into His Kingdom and say "Well done, faithful servant."


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/index.html?iref=mpstoryvi ew

Are you out of your mind? How do you know he's a devout Christian?

Name two things that you know for a fact that GWB has done for the benefit of Christianity. Something that does NOT have political ties...

[clemsontigers23]

I agree, just as I think God would welcome Obama in his arms with the same words, or the Clintons, or Carter, etc. We make mistakes, thank God it is by faith we are saved.

Yeah, politics don't define a person's legacy. We have a lot of discussions and debate, but it all comes down to our faith in Christ, just as it all comes down to Bush's faith in Christ, or Obama's, or other Democrats.

[Jesuslove]

Amazing how people forget President Bush is a devout Christian who has done more for Christians than any other president ever has. I think God would welcome George Bush into His Kingdom and say "Well done, faithful servant."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/index.html?iref=mpstoryvi ew

Please, I don't believe that for one minute. George Bush is only concerned with lining his own pockets. Remember his infamous speech mentioned in Fahrenheit 9/11 where GWB refers to the rich as "his people". The rich have gotten richer during his administration, and we're more hated than ever. What has GWB done for Christian America? You may see him as a devout Christian, I see him as a horrible president who is responsible for ruining many lives both in America and in Iraq.

[Jesuslove]

Are you out of your mind? How do you know he's a devout Christian?

Name two things that you know for a fact that GWB has done for the benefit of Christianity. Something that does NOT have political ties...

EV is right.. what has GWB done that's so great? I think he's a CINO.. a Christian in name only.

[Evanescence]

Please, I don't believe that for one minute. George Bush is only concerned with lining his own pockets. Remember his infamous speech mentioned in Fahrenheit 9/11 where GWB refers to the rich as "his people". The rich have gotten richer during his administration, and we're more hated than ever. What has GWB done for Christian America? You may see him as a devout Christian, I see him as a horrible president who is responsible for ruining many lives both in America and in Iraq.

Easy now...you do know F-911 was all made up...there's no way a devout Christian Republican would say such a thing....

:rolleyes:

[Jesuslove]

Easy now...you do know F-911 was all made up...there's no way a devout Christian Republican would say such a thing....

:rolleyes:

I saw the words come from GWB's mouth.

“Bush tells a banquet room full of wealthy campaign contributors, ‘Here I am, with the haves and the have-mores. People call you the elite. I call you my base.’”

[Evanescence]

I saw the words come from GWB's mouth.

“Bush tells a banquet room full of wealthy campaign contributors, ‘Here I am, with the haves and the have-mores. People call you the elite. I call you my base.’”

I know, it was sarcasm...:D

[cheewiee]

how good of you to think of someone elses sins when you hear the Gospel proclaimed. Jesus would chastise President Bush but not Saddam, not Osama, not Aminajead, He would chastise President Bush but not Barbara Boxer who joyously proclaims shes for abortions, God would chastise President Bush but not Hillary Clinton, not John Edwards, not Bill Clinton, not anyone else unless they are involved with the current American Administration. Truth is we all deserve the chastisement and abandonment of God, but God laid upon Him the iniquity of us all so that we shall be free from sin. It's because of this BS, and I dont mean war, but it's because of political partisanship that I have no desire to be involved in the political realm. God has rescued me from that and has called me to carry His Gospel to the lost. I Thank God for that everyday.

I think this post desirves repeating... Excellent job Valpo!

[cheewiee]

Please, I don't believe that for one minute. George Bush is only concerned with lining his own pockets. Remember his infamous speech mentioned in Fahrenheit 9/11 where GWB refers to the rich as "his people". The rich have gotten richer during his administration, and we're more hated than ever. What has GWB done for Christian America? You may see him as a devout Christian, I see him as a horrible president who is responsible for ruining many lives both in America and in Iraq.

Your a hypocrite, you blast christians for judging others, and here you do the same...

There is a book called Tempting Faith. It is a scathing look at the White House office of Faith Based initives, run by it's former deputy director David Kuo. And although he gives a lambasting view of the Bush Administration, he himself says that he believes that Bush's faith is sincere and genuine.

[Evanescence]

Your a hypocrite, you blast christians for judging others, and here you do the same...

There is a book called Tempting Faith. It is a scathing look at the White House office of Faith Based initives, run by it's former deputy director David Kuo. And although he gives a lambasting view of the Bush Administration, he himself says that he believes that Bush's faith is sincere and genuine.

I don't see it that way at all....we have the right to critisize and challenge our leaders. Canonizing someone who is obviously not living a Christian life IS sin as well. Thats what the kooks in the religious right are doing with Bush.

I said it before and will again. Some of these die-hard REPS would defend Bush if they watched him kill a child in cold blood. Thats why this country will fail. No one stands up for whats right and uses the Bible and their idea of God as an excuse to rape, pillage and murder. Meanwhile, they know absolutely nothing about their leader.....only what is pumped thru the govt run media.

Start talking about Bushs connections to secret societies and his family legacy in politics and everyone shuts up. But, they'll stick by him and claim he's a Christian. The same with any of their favs.

I don't stick up for anyone unless they deserve it....I'm no ones patsy and am way smarter than the average dork following the political game playing thats going on.

What ever happened to "By their fruits, you shall know them"? Heck, thats a pretty vague statement with no reference point, but the killing of 500,000 innocent people is a start.

[Valpo]

ye without sin cast the first stone... Im so sick of this self righteous ******** on this forum. you know nothing about president bush, only what conspriacy driven theorists say, give me a break man, all of you. nonsensical conspiracy theories are what drive us a part. not decent men who make mistakes in war.

[Jesuslove]

Your a hypocrite, you blast christians for judging others, and here you do the same...

There is a book called Tempting Faith. It is a scathing look at the White House office of Faith Based initives, run by it's former deputy director David Kuo. And although he gives a lambasting view of the Bush Administration, he himself says that he believes that Bush's faith is sincere and genuine.

typical... when someone disagrees, you result to namecalling.

Because I don't believe Bush is sincere based on his actions, doesn't make me a hypocrite. Bush, as a leader, has put himself on a pedistal. We have a responsbility to question leaders.

[Jesuslove]

ye without sin cast the first stone... Im so sick of this self righteous ******** on this forum. you know nothing about president bush, only what conspriacy driven theorists say, give me a break man, all of you. nonsensical conspiracy theories are what drive us a part. not decent men who make mistakes in war.

you just don't want to admit the President's administration had failed the American people on so many levels. We have a responsibility to challenge our leadership. What Bush has done is wrong. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but from the very beginning, I knew this war was wrong, a mistake. It seems like those on here that support Bush don't want anyone to criticize him. And if they do, they namecall. Why can't we have a healthy debate about the issues.

[Valpo]

you just don't want to admit the President's administration had failed the American people on so many levels. We have a responsibility to challenge our leadership. What Bush has done is wrong. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but from the very beginning, I knew this war was wrong, a mistake. It seems like those on here that support Bush don't want anyone to criticize him. And if they do, they namecall. Why can't we have a healthy debate about the issues.

I have no problem admitting iraq has been abominable, none. criticize bush all day long, but criticize his policies, it's the vicious personal attacks, like questioning his committment to God that get very very old. But as you are a brother from the tri-state area today (im from LI), I am with you on this day.

[cheewiee]

Let me put it this way, President Bush is the God Ordained leader of this nation. All Authority comes from God, good and bad. While criticisim of his policies is healthy in a democracy, personal attacks, assumptions and the type of bitter vile that I have seen here is nothing short of sinful. God hates it.

[Jesuslove]

Let me put it this way, President Bush is the God Ordained leader of this nation. All Authority comes from God, good and bad. While criticisim of his policies is healthy in a democracy, personal attacks, assumptions and the type of bitter vile that I have seen here is nothing short of sinful. God hates it.

How can you be sure God isn't angry at GWB? After all I don't believe God has blessed all the actions of the American government over the past 200+ years. Maybe God has ordained me, and those like me, who are willing to stand up and speak out against evil.

[cheewiee]

typical... when someone disagrees, you result to namecalling.

Because I don't believe Bush is sincere based on his actions, doesn't make me a hypocrite. Bush, as a leader, has put himself on a pedistal. We have a responsbility to question leaders.

You don't know me... so you don't know what's "Typcial".

You seem to deal harshly with Christians who disagree that homosexuals are Christians. Christians who believe that homosexual actions are contrary to scripture. You have done this under the banner of "Judge Not."

Now you sit here and judge the president, but more than that, you judge the man, George W Bush. I am telling you that your personal attacks on him, and his faith are WAY out of line. And your personal attacks stand in direct opposition to what you have said on this board previously about judging others. That is why I called you a hypcrite.

[cheewiee]

How can you be sure God isn't angry at GWB? After all I don't believe God has blessed all the actions of the American government over the past 200+ years. Maybe God has ordained me, and those like me, who are willing to stand up and speak out against evil.

Romans says that ALL authority comes from God.

Again you are free to criticize the actions, but when you start to attack Bush personally, you are just as wrong and no different then those in the Christian right, like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson who during the 90's waged an extensive Anti Clinton Campaign.

[Jesuslove]

You don't know me... so you don't know what's "Typcial".

You seem to deal harshly with Christians who disagree that homosexuals are Christians. Christians who believe that homosexual actions are contrary to scripture. You have done this under the banner of "Judge Not."

Now you sit here and judge the president, but more than that, you judge the man, George W Bush. I am telling you that your personal attacks on him, and his faith are WAY out of line. And your personal attacks stand in direct opposition to what you have said on this board previously about judging others. That is why I called you a hypcrite.

please. you don't know me to call me a hypocrite.

you are changing the subject. this thread has nothing to do with sexuality. I am debating issues. please don't derail this thread.

[Jesuslove]

Romans says that ALL authority comes from God.

Again you are free to criticize the actions, but when you start to attack Bush personally, you are just as wrong and no different then those in the Christian right, like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson who during the 90's waged an extensive Anti Clinton Campaign.

so you are condemning Falwell and Robertson? I am only criticizing Bush here.

[cheewiee]

please. you don't know me to call me a hypocrite.

you are changing the subject. this thread has nothing to do with sexuality. I am debating issues. please don't derail this thread.

I am not derailing the issue. I am pointing out your behavior stands in stark contrast to what you have said previously. You have stated that Christians shouldn't judge the faith of people based on their sins, and yet here you do the exact same thing. Doesn't that make you a hyocrite?

[cheewiee]

so you are condemning Falwell and Robertson? I am only criticizing Bush here.

I am saying that Personal attacks against the President are wrong no matter who the President is or who the personal attacks come from.

[Evanescence]

ye without sin cast the first stone... Im so sick of this self righteous ******** on this forum. you know nothing about president bush, only what conspriacy driven theorists say, give me a break man, all of you. nonsensical conspiracy theories are what drive us a part. not decent men who make mistakes in war.


So, why don't we just let everyone do whatever they want and let the country and the world go to hell in a handbasket?

Bushs family history in politics, top secret Govt agencies, secret societies and things he and his family have said, are NOT CTs, but fact.

Questionable groups like PNAC, that MOST of this administration belonged to, has nothing to do with CTs, but is FACT.

Our Constitution and founding fathers ideas/statements on questioning the Govt and our President are not CTs, they are fact.

The facts were stated above in this post. This administration is a who's-who of BIG career politicians, powerful families and those deeply affiliated with BIG business. Bush made the call to invade Iraq, BS'n us the whole way there. I didn't fall for it...but many did. Now, he has to live with the consequences. Being known as one of the worst presidents this country has ever known.

In Canada or Australia, they would have thrown out Bush and his group of madmen long ago.

Not to worry though, the system for world domination is in place and the next President will carry on where Bush left off. Most likely with a false-flag attack to keep the Sheeple in check-- scared and wanting more security and Govt control.

[Valpo]

I am saying that Personal attacks against the President are wrong no matter who the President is or who the personal attacks come from.

that's all I'm saying too and somehow that turns into "You people want to silence us! criticism is patriotic!"

BY ALL MEANS! The only thing we ask E and Jesuslove to do is cut the middle school name calling of the President of the United States. The character assassination is so old and tiring. Same goes for character assassination on the other side as well.

[Jesuslove]

I am not derailing the issue. I am pointing out your behavior stands in stark contrast to what you have said previously. You have stated that Christians shouldn't judge the faith of people based on their sins, and yet here you do the exact same thing. Doesn't that make you a hyocrite?

No, GWB as a leader opened himself up to public criticism. He is accountable to a higher standard as our leader. It is our duty as taxpaying Americans to challenge our elected officials. We do not live under dictatorship.

[Jesuslove]

So, why don't we just let everyone do whatever they want and let the country and the world go to hell in a handbasket?

Bushs family history in politics, top secret Govt agencies, secret societies and things he and his family have said, are NOT CTs, but fact.

Questionable groups like PNAC, that MOST of this administration belonged to, has nothing to do with CTs, but is FACT.

Our Constitution and founding fathers ideas/statements on questioning the Govt and our President are not CTs, they are fact.

The facts were stated above in this post. This administration is a who's-who of BIG career politicians, powerful families and those deeply affiliated with BIG business. Bush made the call to invade Iraq, BS'n us the whole way there. I didn't fall for it...but many did. Now, he has to live with the consequences. Being known as one of the worst presidents this country has ever known.

In Canada or Australia, they would have thrown out Bush and his group of madmen long ago.

Not to worry though, the system for world domination is in place and the next President will carry on where Bush left off. Most likely with a false-flag attack to keep the Sheeple in check-- scared and wanting more security and Govt control.

I couldn't agree more! I never believed in this war from the beginning. People here may hate me for my opinion, but I stood steadfast and never changed my belief. Now public opinion has shifted and the majority of Americans are against the war.

[cheewiee]

No, GWB as a leader opened himself up to public criticism. He is accountable to a higher standard as our leader. It is our duty as taxpaying Americans to challenge our elected officials. We do not live under dictatorship.

Your right, you can challenge and address policy and issues that the President stands for, but what you are engaging in is personal attacks and character assasination.

Perhaps you should go read 1st Samuel for some enlightenment into what I am trying to say.

[Jesuslove]

Your right, you can challenge and address policy and issues that the President stands for, but what you are engaging in is personal attacks and character assasination.

Perhaps you should go read 1st Samuel for some enlightenment into what I am trying to say.

What I'm saying is that men who are of faith (not men who claim to be of faith) would not have done half of the things that this President or his administration have done.

[Valpo]

Your right, you can challenge and address policy and issues that the President stands for, but what you are engaging in is personal attacks and character assasination.

Perhaps you should go read 1st Samuel for some enlightenment into what I am trying to say.

I've spoken to walls that hear me better. Maybe somethings getting lost over the internet, but I'm pretty sure we are saying go ahead and criticize the President. We must be taking all the fun out that we've requested no personal attacks or character assassination attempts.

[cheewiee]

Saul was a young man, good looking in apperance, scripture says he was large in stature.

God made Saul king. Saul, did ok for a little while, but eventually pride crept in and Saul started disobeying God's word. He got so cold that he referred to God as, "Your God" to Samuel.

Saul's disobediance made God angry, so God found a new king, David. After David is annointed King of Israel, events take him into serving in the court of Saul. Saul this wicked evil king became jealous of David, so much so that he tried to kill David, several times.

David came across Saul sleeping, and had an opportunity to kill his enemy right then and there. He could have used the "righteous reason" by saying Saul wasn't following God. He could have used "personal defense". Instead of killing Saul, he sent Saul a message. He cut the hem from his garment to prove that he could have killed him.

Dispite God's anger at Saul, God convicted David. You see, God is all about Authority, and David by cutting the hem off of Sauls Garment was seen as a personal attack on Saul.

It is one thing to criticize the actions, and policies of the Bush administration, it is something completly different to judge and personally attack the man George W Bush.

[cheewiee]

What I'm saying is that men who are of faith (not men who claim to be of faith) would not have done half of the things that this President or his administration have done.

Where does it say that we should respect Authority as long as it's geniunly Christian Authority?

[Jesuslove]

Where does it say that we should respect Authority as long as it's geniunly Christian Authority?

exactly. you made my point. I don't believe this is genuinely Christian authority.

[Evanescence]

I've spoken to walls that hear me better. Maybe somethings getting lost over the internet, but I'm pretty sure we are saying go ahead and criticize the President. We must be taking all the fun out that we've requested no personal attacks or character assassination attempts.

Valpo, I guess thats where we differ on opinion.

Your opinion on personal attacks and ours...or mine, must be different.

When I say clueless putz, I literally mean clueless putz.

I see what your saying and am hoestly careful how I critisize him, the admin and the Govt, but this constant defending and canonizing makes me ill.

People need to be honest about their leaders and their ways. Party lines need to be crossed and the power brought back to the people. I'm nat saying this towrd you Valpo, but all Americans in general.

We are losing our say and our rights...:(

[cheewiee]

When I say clueless putz, I literally mean clueless putz.



When you say clueless putz, that is a personal attack. It is. This one of the reasons, why our political system is so messed up. We get diverted from the issues, from talking about those things we disagree about, and start focusing on the person we disagree with. Politics of Personal Destruction.

This is just as damaging to our democracy, as our attention turns from what matters, (the issues) onto the people. And it keeps the American people distracted.

[SonflowerGurl]

When you say clueless putz, that is a personal attack. It is. This one of the reasons, why our political system is so messed up. We get diverted from the issues, from talking about those things we disagree about, and start focusing on the person we disagree with. Politics of Personal Destruction.

This is just as damaging to our democracy, as our attention turns from what matters, (the issues) onto the people. And it keeps the American people distracted.

I SO Agree with this comment.

[Evanescence]

exactly. you made my point. I don't believe this is genuinely Christian authority.

I agree. Regardless what the Bible says or how you spin it....we have the right as American citizens to challenge, criticize and look after the Govt. If not, they will run amuck....much like they are doing now.

[Evanescence]

When you say clueless putz, that is a personal attack. It is. This one of the reasons, why our political system is so messed up. We get diverted from the issues, from talking about those things we disagree about, and start focusing on the person we disagree with. Politics of Personal Destruction.

This is just as damaging to our democracy, as our attention turns from what matters, (the issues) onto the people. And it keeps the American people distracted.

I agree as well, and should be more careful...

But, on the same hand, isn't it the same when someone calls a Conspiracy Possibility Advocate a loon, crackpot, kook or a whacko? Or is that somehow different? I am curious.

[cheewiee]

I agree as well, and should be more careful...

But, on the same hand, isn't it the same when someone calls a Conspiracy Possibility Advocate a loon, crackpot, kook or a whacko? Or is that somehow different? I am curious.

I would say that as believers we shouldn't attack anyone personally. I think, that our society has made light of Conspiracy Advocates. The tin foil hats, and stuff... When I call you a crackpot loon, it really is lighthearted, cuz I do think your a neat guy, dispite our differences....

[Jesuslove]

I would say that as believers we shouldn't attack anyone personally. I think, that our society has made light of Conspiracy Advocates. The tin foil hats, and stuff... When I call you a crackpot loon, it really is lighthearted, cuz I do think your a neat guy, dispite our differences....

Calling Ev a crackpot loon or me a hypocrite is not fair. We have every right to criticize the president, his administration and his actions, but personal attacks against us are wrong.

[Evanescence]

I would say that as believers we shouldn't attack anyone personally. I think, that our society has made light of Conspiracy Advocates. The tin foil hats, and stuff... When I call you a crackpot loon, it really is lighthearted, cuz I do think your a neat guy, dispite our differences....

Why thank you...:cool:

But seriously, not that this is directed at you...but people don't want to hear bad talk about the President and the Govt, but yet they label folk harshly if you have different ideas and views. Man, they call you a traitor if you don't support the war....whats up with that?

[cheewiee]

Calling Ev a crackpot loon or me a hypocrite is not fair. We have every right to criticize the president, his administration and his actions, but personal attacks against us are wrong.

Your right, but your assumptions that Bush's faith is not geniune, is hypocritcal, compared to your stated oppinion that Christian's shouldn't judge the faith of Homosexuals.

[Jesuslove]

Why thank you...:cool:

But seriously, not that this is directed at you...but people don't want to hear bad talk about the President and the Govt, but yet they label folk harshly if you have different ideas and views. Man, they call you a traitor if you don't support the war....whats up with that?

I agree. I was against the war since before it began. I prayed and prayed for a peaceful solution. This war is not a "Christian" war or the Christian thing to do.

[Jesuslove]

Your right, but your assumptions that Bush's faith is not geniune, is hypocritcal, compared to your stated oppinion that Christian's shouldn't judge the faith of Homosexuals.

Why do you keep bringing homosexuals up. You are talking apples and oranges. I have every right to judge our president and his poorly made decisions. I don't judge individual citizens. I don't believe condemning groups of people on the actions of a few. I am criticizing one man whose actions don't match the Christian values he espouses.

[cheewiee]

Why do you keep bringing homosexuals up. You are talking apples and oranges. I have every right to judge our president and his poorly made decisions. I don't judge individual citizens. I don't believe condemning groups of people on the actions of a few. I am criticizing one man whose actions don't match the Christian values he espouses.

It isn't apples and oranges. It's the exact same thing. George Bush is an individual citizen. As president you have every right to judge his job performance and his decisions, but to judge his faith to say he isn't sincere, to say he isn't geniune is doing what you say you dispise about the modern church.

But it's ok when you do it, is that right?

[Jesuslove]

It isn't apples and oranges. It's the exact same thing. George Bush is an individual citizen. As president you have every right to judge his job performance and his decisions, but to judge his faith to say he isn't sincere, to say he isn't geniune is doing what you say you dispise about the modern church.

But it's ok when you do it, is that right?

I am not criticizing GWB the citizen. I am criticizing GWB the President. He infuses his faith into political rhetoric and I have a right as a citizen to call him on it. I believe he is insincere. Yesterday I quoted GWB. I'll do it again.

"This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores," quipped the GWB. "Some people call you the elites; I call you my base."

Does that sound Christian to you? And GWB believes this. Under this administration, the rich have gotten richer and the middle class has shrunk. Those living below the poverty level are increasing in numbers. And GWB calls rich folk his base. Hmmmmm......

[cheewiee]

I am not criticizing GWB the citizen. I am criticizing GWB the President. He infuses his faith into political rhetoric and I have a right as a citizen to call him on it. I believe he is insincere. Yesterday I quoted GWB. I'll do it again.

"This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores," quipped the GWB. "Some people call you the elites; I call you my base."

Does that sound Christian to you? And GWB believes this. Under this administration, the rich have gotten richer and the middle class has shrunk. Those living below the poverty level are increasing in numbers. And GWB calls rich folk his base. Hmmmmm......

Is it possible he was saying that tounge in cheek?

Again, I STRONGLY SUGGEST you read Tempting Faith by David Kuo. It is a strongly critical look at the very issues you raise, but the Author, who has intimate working knowledge of the President's faith based initiave office comes off saying that he still believes Bush's faith is genuine.

[Jesuslove]

Is it possible he was saying that tounge in cheek?

Again, I STRONGLY SUGGEST you read Tempting Faith by David Kuo. It is a strongly critical look at the very issues you raise, but the Author, who has intimate working knowledge of the President's faith based initiave office comes off saying that he still believes Bush's faith is genuine.

Not all who have faith are doing the right things. Is it possible GWB is misguided? I get the impression that the office of President is too big for him. He doesn't impress me as a leader, and I'm not saying that in a mean way. I see him when he holds press conferences.... he bumbles words, he's not quick on his feet, he sometimes makes inappropriate comments. I just feel that his trusted advisors are making a lot of the decisions for him, and quite possibly misguiding him.

And the comment about the rich. It's not so much the comment that offends me, it's the FACT that the rich are getting richer, poverty's increasing, and the middle class is shrinking.

[Valpo]

Not all who have faith are doing the right things. Is it possible GWB is misguided? I get the impression that the office of President is too big for him.


See, this is a perfectly valid thing to say. One can be critical and not personally derail a man/woman. So does the prospect the presidency may not be for him or the fact that he mays eem misguided make him a diabolical evil bastard? I would say no.

[Jesuslove]

See, this is a perfectly valid thing to say. One can be critical and not personally derail a man/woman. So does the prospect the presidency may not be for him or the fact that he mays eem misguided make him a diabolical evil bastard? I would say no.

Let's just say he's inept, selfish, and surrounded by a ruthless group of advisors. Can we agree on that?

[cheewiee]

Let's just say he's inept, selfish, and surrounded by a ruthless group of advisors. Can we agree on that?

Seems inept would be proper... Selfish would suggest that you KNOW his motivations, when you don't you can only speculate.... surrounded by a ruthless group of advisors... I would say obstently loyal to people who may not desirve it.

[Jesuslove]

Seems inept would be proper... Selfish would suggest that you KNOW his motivations, when you don't you can only speculate.... surrounded by a ruthless group of advisors... I would say obstently loyal to people who may not desirve it.

Well that's a good start for a compromise. By selfish I mean he supports big business and as I've stated over and over, the rich are getting richer. GWB will never have to make a mortgage payment, or have to worry about hungry children or stuggle to make ends meet. Yet he supports big business. The disparity between rich and poor in America is growing, and yet he doesn't even support raising the minimum wage.

[cheewiee]

Well that's a good start for a compromise. By selfish I mean he supports big business and as I've stated over and over, the rich are getting richer. GWB will never have to make a mortgage payment, or have to worry about hungry children or stuggle to make ends meet. Yet he supports big business. The disparity between rich and poor in America is growing, and yet he doesn't even support raising the minimum wage.

There are alot of people who will never have to make a mortgage payment. That doesn't necessarly make him evil.

In regards to disparity, perhaps he believes raising the minimum wage will only serve to increase that disparity....

[Jesuslove]

There are alot of people who will never have to make a mortgage payment. That doesn't necessarly make him evil.

In regards to disparity, perhaps he believes raising the minimum wage will only serve to increase that disparity....

we could go back and forth for days.... the bottom line is that our country is becoming a nation of the have's and have-not's. That's not a Christian concept, and GWB has done little, very little to try to rectify the situation. He is in bed with big business. He actions would lead one to believe he doesn't care about your average Wal Mart workin' Joe Schmoe, who has to work two other jobs to pay the bills and support his family.

[clemsontigers23]

we could go back and forth for days.... the bottom line is that our country is becoming a nation of the have's and have-not's. That's not a Christian concept, and GWB has done little, very little to try to rectify the situation. He is in bed with big business. He actions would lead one to believe he doesn't care about your average Wal Mart workin' Joe Schmoe, who has to work two other jobs to pay the bills and support his family.

This is where your ignorance shows. President Bush has been consistent with conservative values of helping small businesses grow.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa032002a.htm

Stressing his desire for an American business environment where "the entrepreneurial spirit flourishes," President Bush has proposed a plan to help small businesses save on taxes and offer health insurance to their employees.

According to a White House Policy Statement, the president believes his plan would "free entrepreneurs to devote more time and resources to servicing their customers, developing their products, and helping their employees." Highlights of the president's Small Business Plan include:

- Providing tax incentives making it easier for small businesses to make job-creating investments. The president's proposal increases from $200,000 to $325,000 the dollar amount in new investments businesses can immediately expense (rather than depreciate) the first $25,000. Cost to the government would be about $7 billion over ten years. The president also proposes permanently eliminating of the estate, or "death tax."

- Helping small business owners provide their employees with health care benefits. The proposal would allow several small business to combine their employees when bidding for health insurance polices called Association Health Plans. In addition, the president's plan proposes to amend the Medical Savings Accounts program to improve health care options for employees who already have insurance.

- Allowing small businesses to earn interest on their checking accounts by repealing depression-era laws.

- Giving small businesses easier access to and a greater voice in the federal regulatory process. The proposal would strengthen the SBA Office of Advocacy to "ensure that the interests of small businesses are fully considered when agencies begin crafting new regulations."

- Ensuring that the government contracting process is open to bids from all small businesses qualified to fulfill the government's needs. The plan proposes several changes designed to make it easier for small business to bid on lucrative government contracts.

- Continuing to develop online information sources to help provide small businesses with the information they need to succeed.
The president officially announced his Small Business Plan in a speech to the Women's Entrepreneurship Summit in Washington on Tuesday, March 19.

"Small business ownership is a great equalizer in America," stated the president. "The only connections you need are happy customers, a good business plan. The only credentials you need are good products. The only values you need is to be willing to take risk and to work hard."

My dad owns a small business and has experienced unprecedented success under the Bush Administration.

You jumped all over me for saying homosexuality was wrong. The fact that it's wrong is not debatable. President Bush's politics are debatable. I think you're misguided, though. I'm not going to compromise my stance and say that he's misguided...I believe he's one of the best presidents we've ever had. You disagree with me...that's fine. But I get sick of people insulting the president...it's something a middle schooler would do. Maybe you are in middle school, I don't know, but if you're going to judge George Bush then don't judge me because I think homosexuals are living a lifestyle of sin.

[Jesuslove]

This is where your ignorance shows. President Bush has been consistent with conservative values of helping small businesses grow.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa032002a.htm

My dad owns a small business and has experienced unprecedented success under the Bush Administration.
...
President Bush's politics are debatable. I think you're misguided, though. I'm not going to compromise my stance and say that he's misguided...I believe he's one of the best presidents we've ever had. You disagree with me...that's fine. But I get sick of people insulting the president...it's something a middle schooler would do. Maybe you are in middle school, I don't know, but if you're going to judge George Bush then don't judge me.

If things are so great, then why loan delinquencies and mortgage defaults so high? When Bush entered office, the top 1% of wageearners earned 14% of all income; last year it jumped to 22%, all the while the middle class is stuggling and there are more people living in poverty today than 6 years ago. Is that GWB's legacy?... Is that what Jesus would do? Think about it... would Jesus be giving tax breaks to large corporations or waiving their environmental fines? Would Jesus be taking from the poor and making the rich richer? I doubt it. This president is a disgrace. He pays lip service to Christians, but his actions don't match his words. Just because he says he's a man of faith, doesn't mean he's a man of his word. I am not a sheep and refuse to blindly follow this man down the path to our nation's destruction.

[clemsontigers23]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070911/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq

Bush will cut 30,000 troops by next summer, and other troop cuts will be based on progress...will probably address nation Thursday night.

[cheewiee]

If things are so great, then why loan delinquencies and mortgage defaults so high?

The current credit crunch, and housing market has nothing to do with the disparity in income. It has everything to do with predatory lending, and people making ill financial decisions.

When I got married in 2003, I could have bought a 90 thousand dollar home, but we decided to rent... Fast foward to the spring of 2005, the housing market in Fl was booming at that same 90,000 house was selling for 150.

The only way I could have afforded to purchase that house was to get into an interest only, or sub prime loan. Had I done that I would now be in dire straights as interest rates went up, and introductory sub prime rates went away.

The Government cannot force people to make responsable discisions regarding their finances. This current financial crisis is not only affecting the lower income levels, but higher income levels as well. People who make large wages and have otherwise good credit are losing their homes, because they unwisely chose to buy more than they could afford.

[cheewiee]

I am not a sheep and refuse to blindly follow this man down the path to our nation's destruction.

You may not be a sheep following Bush, but your still a sheep blaiming him for all the nation's problems, even those he didn't cause.

It's nice to see you went a few hours without Bush-Bashing...

[Valpo]

Let's just say he's inept, selfish, and surrounded by a ruthless group of advisors. Can we agree on that?

Id disagree with all those things actually. But could see where you get it from. here is how I see our president. A devout man of faith who is also extremely loyal to people around him. And because of this he does not feel it right on his conscious to hack away people he is so loyal too. This is why it took forever to get rid of Rummy. But for a minute let's place ourselves in his shoes, just for a moment. I know I have friends that dont always do the right thing, in fact mostly the wrong thing, but I would never abandon them. Now I understand that may be the wrong context because president bush is the leader of the free world and he should try and separate the issues. But he is still a human being. I dont for one second buy into conspiracy theories, mostly the ones E promotes either, if not all. I do think they are vastly misguided, I can't say stupid or maybe even crazy bc certainly academic people buy into them. But I can say they are severely misguided, and can give facts just on the other side, but that's not the point of this post. The President has aged a lot since he came into office, and I see that as a sign of a man who tirelessly works at his job and has a deep rooted committment to it. As far as his faith goes, again I think he is devout and a Christian. To say his civil duties and reactions to unfortunate situations thrown on his lap mark him an evil person without a true faith is way off base as far as I am concerned, even a lot of people who loathe his policies do not loathe the man. Look at the Clintons for example. I firmly believe though as a Christian there is a separation of kingdoms in this world. The kingdom of the right hand and the kingdom of the left hand. The kingdom of the right hand has to do with the things of God, the spiritual kingdom. Our salvation, our eternity is based in that kingdom. Then there is the Kingdom of the Lefthand of which God as Cheewie pointed out has left humans up to run their govts obviously. Because of this distinction in kingdoms I do not believe it is accurate to insert Jesus into political situations that have nothing to do with the Gospel and ask questions like WWJD? You have no idea how Jesus would react (although, ever read the Old Testament and how God dealt with some people? All true, just because it's gruesome and doesnt fit into our 21st century civil view doesnt make it unjust either). Jesus did not come as a political ruler, He came as fully man, fully God to deliver the people from their sins. Liberation Theology and American Christianity has turned Jesus into some political force. Jesus did not come to liberate the people from their hardships on earth (the Jews are a prime example!) Jesus came to liberate the people from their sins and from death! That's not to say Christians should not fight for justice, but it should always be in a cross centered focus. The Gospel is not "Jesus says I dont have to live under an oppressive govt (notice the how amazingly the church thrives when it is oppressed or suppressed)." The Gospel is as Paul says Christ crucified and risen. What does that mean? How can we apply that message in a political WWJD? context....we cant. So any social justice the Christian looks for should be done in the context of the cross looking to bring the Good News of Jesus' death and resurrection to conquer sin and death to the people who so desparately need to hear that then get the suppressive govt off their back. If the Sudan was liberated and not one new Christian sprouted up that would be a tragic failure. So what does this all have to do with Bush? Bush operates in the Kingdom of the Left, and because of certain situations he has seen this course of action as the best. Obviously his actions in Iraq have turned out to be miserable thus far. But doesnt mean he didnt have a noble cause in mind. His faith and salvation rest in the Kingdom of the Right with the rest of us and that is how we are saved, not because partisan Democrats or Republicans vehemently disagree with our civil policies and damn us based on that context.

[Jesuslove]

You may not be a sheep following Bush, but your still a sheep blaiming him for all the nation's problems, even those he didn't cause.

It's nice to see you went a few hours without Bush-Bashing...

why is any criticism of GWB bashing? I have never been a sheep. I am a free thinker. I have no political party affiliation.

As for the economy, I see another side to it.... you can trust me when I say the economy is weakening.

Since you and others are so in favor of this President, is there anyone out there that would front me the $4,000 of my money GWB spent to pay for this war?

[cheewiee]

why is any criticism of GWB bashing? I have never been a sheep. I am a free thinker. I have no political party affiliation.

As for the economy, I see another side to it.... you can trust me when I say the economy is weakening.

Since you and others are so in favor of this President, is there anyone out there that would front me the $4,000 of my money GWB spent to pay for this war?

Why is it about absolutes? There are things that this president has done that I disagree with. One prime example was using Airforce C-130's in the hunt for the DC sniper. I disagreed with it then, even had a thread on this board if I remember correctly about it.

There are things that this President has done that have been great. His promotion of the Immigration reform bill is a primary example.

I know the media tells you that you either have to be 100% for or 100% against a president, that just isn't true....

And yes I know our economy is weakening, but that is because of the housing Market. The houseing market is where it is because banks were giving money to people they shouldn't have in order to keep up with their competition in the number of loans they wrote.

Our economy is weakening because people bought houses they could not afford using traditional financing methods, and they interest rates are now coming home to roost.

This isn't Bush's fault. People are losing their homes because they listened to slick Realitors and Mortage brokers tell them they could afford houses they really couldn't.

So excuse me, if I choose not to lay everything that is wrong with this nation at the presidents feet, when it doesn't belong there.

That is something a Michael Moore/moveon.org sheep would do...

[cheewiee]

This president is a disgrace.
That is a bash...

[clemsontigers23]

Bush-bashers are now the sheep...once the media started bashing him, everyone else joined in. It's just like the anti-conformists...the anti-conformists became the conformists.

[Jesuslove]

But I can say they are severely misguided, and can give facts just on the other side, but that's not the point of this post. The President has aged a lot since he came into office, and I see that as a sign of a man who tirelessly works at his job and has a deep rooted committment to it..
Working tirelessly? Do you know GWB has taken more vacation than any other President in the history of the US? If I sent the nations youth to war, I'd be ashamed to take a vacation. Why should he be vacationing while young kids he sent to war are losing their lives.

As far as his faith goes, again I think he is devout and a Christian. To say his civil duties and reactions to unfortunate situations thrown on his lap mark him an evil person without a true faith is way off base as far as I am concerned, even a lot of people who loathe his policies do not loathe the man.
Use my example I cited before. The rich are getting richer. Big business is expanding. The middle class is shrinking, and there are more poor in America then ever before. Is this what Jesus would advocate? I never said GWB was evil, but he's not in touch with reality, and definitely NOT compassionate. Why is GWB against raising the minimum wage?


Because of this distinction in kingdoms I do not believe it is accurate to insert Jesus into political situations that have nothing to do with the Gospel and ask questions like WWJD? You have no idea how Jesus would react.
It is fair to insert Jesus into political situations. Most Americans take into consideration spiritual matters when voting. Why wouldn't you then measure a person's record versus what Jesus said and did? Since you brought up Clinton, let's look at some of the issues he's addressing since he left office: HIV/AIDS, poverty, the environment, etc.

[Jesuslove]

Bush-bashers are now the sheep...once the media started bashing him, everyone else joined in. It's just like the anti-conformists...the anti-conformists became the conformists.

I didnt' join a bandwagon. I am the bandwagon.

[clemsontigers23]

I didnt' join a bandwagon. I am the bandwagon.

lol

You keep thinking that. We have different opinions, and that's fine...but put your money where your mouth is if you're going to "be the bandwagon."

[Valpo]

[QUOTE]Working tirelessly? Do you know GWB has taken more vacation than any other President in the history of the US? If I sent the nations youth to war, I'd be ashamed to take a vacation. Why should he be vacationing while young kids he sent to war are losing their lives.


Like the Thanksgiving vacation he took and flew to Iraq right from Crawford? Vacation, gimme a brek who gives a crap the guy works 17 hour days when he isnt on vacation, and he's still running the show when he is on vacation anyway! This notion that Bush turns off his cell phone during vacation is wild. Take owning a business for example, when a business owner "goes on vacation" ten times outta ten he or she is still doing work on vacation. Just because they have a change of scenery or arent in the office doesnt mean all day everyday they lounge by the pool or beach and abandon their job.

Use my example I cited before. The rich are getting richer. Big business is expanding. The middle class is shrinking, and there are more poor in America then ever before. Is this what Jesus would advocate? I never said GWB was evil, but he's not in touch with reality, and definitely NOT compassionate. Why is GWB against raising the minimum wage?

All trends that have been around since Bush got into office day one. but no way William Jefferson Clintons policies could have been the reason for this! I agree with Cheewie on housing and people falling for hacks telling them they can afford something they cant. And that's a pure product of the Clinton years. And Pres. Bush is against raising the minmum wage for the same reason I am, it does nothing. Everything else just raises because of it. Costs adapt to how people are doing, how they are being paid. the market says oh people are making 6.25 an hour now, guess what we can raise milk prices bc they could afford it at the previous wage, so they could afford it now

It is fair to insert Jesus into political situations. Most Americans take into consideration spiritual matters when voting. Why wouldn't you then measure a person's record versus what Jesus said and did? Since you brought up Clinton, let's look at some of the issues he's addressing since he left office: HIV/AIDS, poverty, the environment, etc.

I dont vote my religion, because I recognize the distinction between kingdoms. I am vehemently against abortion and see homosexuality as a sin, but I'm considering voting for Rudy for President. So your over generalization fails there. And Jesus does not belong in foreign policy politics or economic politics, Jesus said it best, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is God's. But unfortunately some people have selective hearing with Christ and would rather make him out to be some social political hero.

[Jesuslove]

lol

You keep thinking that. We have different opinions, and that's fine...but put your money where your mouth is if you're going to "be the bandwagon."

I pray that I am wrong, that America turns around, that we get our kids out of Iraq with as few deaths as possible. I want America to succeed, to be prosperous. My salary comes from this government. But unfortunately, as time passes, I feel less proud of our nation, our leader and of our government's actions.

[clemsontigers23]

I pray that I am wrong, that America turns around, that we get our kids out of Iraq with as few deaths as possible. I want America to succeed, to be prosperous. My salary comes from this government. But unfortunately, as time passes, I feel less proud of our nation, our leader and of our government's actions.

I pray for our leaders everyday...you're right, hopefully our prayers will bring God's blessings upon them.

[Jesuslove]

I dont vote my religion, because I recognize the distinction between kingdoms.

I don't vote my religion either. I vote for the candidate I think would do best. I have voted for Republicans for President, and for Democrats as well. I've voted for Republicans and Democrats for state governor, for senators, for congress. I'm independent.

If you don't vote your religion, under what circumstances would you vote for a Democrat for President?

[cheewiee]

Anne Rice had an excellent post about voting without your religion... It's impossible..

http://annerice.com/

[Valpo]

If you don't vote your religion, under what circumstances would you vote for a Democrat for President?

If it was a Democrat I liked and thought would be a good leader. And no one currently running, with the exception of Bill Richardson would I be comfortable with as a leader. Although Liebermans an independent, barring any republican i was in love with I'd vote for him. And I vote for the Democratic rep for my district back home, and he took over a spot of a popular Republican that I really liked.

[Evanescence]

I pray for our leaders everyday...you're right, hopefully our prayers will bring God's blessings upon them.

It won't because I feel we're in the last days.....nt having more than 100 years, if that.

Evil is in charge and God has for the most part removed his hand from us, this great nation. And the world as well.

I may be wrong, but I think a lot points to it...

[clemsontigers23]

It won't because I feel we're in the last days.....nt having more than 100 years, if that.

Evil is in charge and God has for the most part removed his hand from us, this great nation. And the world as well.

I may be wrong, but I think a lot points to it...

I've always thought that, but I try not to make that a reason when deciding who to vote for.

Eventually the US will fall, which begs the question...should Christians vote? Since Satan is the prince of every kingdom in this world and has control over them (only as much as God gives him, just to clarify) then he must be the ruler of this nation as well, right?

[Evanescence]

I think we should fight evil and apocolyptic style events as much as we can. We should always make sure that the country is run like the founding fathers intended and that the powers that be are kept in check.

We're Americans before REPS or DEMS. And Christians before anything else.