Phillip Pullman: His Dark Materials Trilogy - Book one: The Golden Compass

[Pixie Wildflower]

I finished reading book one of the trilogy. I know there is going to be a movie released of "The Golden Compass". Has any one else read these books? Like Harry Potter, it seems like children were the assumed audience but people of all ages develops an appreciation of the plot. I think it's interesting that this world, which is a parallel world to ours has similarities to our world, but the differences are really, really different! Like your soul living outside of your body in animal form (called a daemon) and only humans have them. Another interesting difference is intelligent, talking warrior bears. I will start reading book two very soon!

[Swamp]

I picked it up after seeing a movie trailer for the Golden compass. I just knew by watching it it had to be a book adaptation. So I found the book at the library and started reading. It's rather dark. I am wondering if kids actually read this series. I asked a teen I know who loves Terry Brooks, if he had read them and he had never heard of them. (Same kid has read almost all of the RedWall series- He is widely read and knows a lot about what kids are reading).

I am almost done with the third book and I'm trying really hard to find a theological application/or parrellell that I can use when discussing it especially when the movie comes out. There is a lot in there about original sin especially as you read 2 and 3 and there are reference to God and angels but it's more like Pulman has utilized basic ideas and names found in Christianity and applied to this fantastical story but he has not actually applied Christian doctrine. I'm trying to figure out what it is he is wanting to say about orginal sin is he like the guy who wrote Dogma looking for theological loop holes? I will say his theodicy is not Christian.

Even though I keep getting distracted and haven't gotten all the way through this last book I have to say I am growing of weary of trying to find a solid Christian connection. So other than say this book's theodicy is way off of from Christian beliefs-I'm not sure what else to say about it. It's an interesting tale and he does a good job of not pulling all the threads of the story together. I am in the third book and it's still not all coming together and I'm at a loss as to where he is headed (which is good-I hate it when I can guess the plot). There is a part of me that's still looking for a connection to Christian theology and another part of me that says it won't happen.

[Pixie Wildflower]

No, it's just fantasy and I enjoyed the first book, but felt somewhat disturbed by the proceeding ones. He is certainly against organized religion, which we all know that organized anything leads to corruption. Each person must have their own relationship with God. That said, it could lead to confusion, so if someone lets their kids read it, they should make sure the kids are old enough to differentiate fantasy from reality. While some parts are entertaining, other parts are so anti relgion that it is disturbing. Ok, so even those of us that believe in God don't believe that organized religion should persecute people (at least not these days, though there once was an Inquisistion). Plus, most people see God as eternal and not some glorified angel. It is certainly pure fantasy from about any point of view.

[Swamp]

I agree it is pure fanstasy. But since it does make use of theological ideas and verbage I am concerned about the middle school/junior high kids I work with and their spiritual formation and how this may shape their thinking. Their ability to think abstractly is just coming into play. If one of them brings it up I want to be prepared to direct them back to Truth. So I am looking for those jumping off points, how he uses the ideas and misuses some. They are in that crucial stage when they begin to think critically and to evaluate what they have been taught at home and at church against the world and their peers. My desire to be familiar with the books is to be informed as they begin to talk about it (especially when the movie come out in Dec).

[JCF]

From Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp)

The series' author, Philip Pullman, is an avowed atheist who has averred that "I don't profess any religion; I don't think it's possible that there is a God; I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what is meant by the words 'spiritual' or 'spirituality.'" Critics of Pullman's books point to the strong anti-religion and anti-God themes they incorporate, and although literary works are subject to a variety of interpretations, Pullman left little doubt about his intentions when he said in a 2003 interview that "My books are about killing God." (Conservative British columnist Peter Hitchens labeled Pullman "The Most Dangerous Author in Britain" and described him as the writer "the atheists would have been praying for, if atheists prayed.")

[The Unknown Gomer]

They've really got issues with these books and the movie over on the Jeremy Camp boards. Here's the link (http://forum.jeremycamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1193425674) if you want to check it out. They link to the whole snopes write up there as well...

(oh and it's arrived in our own Hot Topics subject as well, I see...)

But here we go, I've never heard of these books, but now, with the negative publicity it's getting already, I need to check them out, I think. Just shows to go you that even negative publicity is good publicity. ;)

[EmmoGomer]

I have Christian friends who read Phillip Pullman. They say they're kinda weird books, but still enjoy them for what they are.
I think Karen has a point....... all publicity is good publicity. I really want to see the film.

[kiwisongbird]

Yup, here we go again advertising, for free, yet another book that may have remained almost unknown if we had kept a little quiet! :)

Mind you, now I know that Nicodemus (13) doesn't need to read this series - and the local library (we only have one that we can use) has these books and the librarian recommends them...

[The Unknown Gomer]

Just put the book on reserve at the local library. I think it'll be a while. Like I said in the other thread, there are 53 copies floating around the Wake County library system, and even with that many copies here, there were still 31 people (32 now, with me) who have the book put on reserve and are waiting for it.

That's a LOT of interest in this book.

I'm thinking that if nobody had made a fuss about this whole thing that I probably could have moused in, put it on reserve and had it in a couple of days.

But because people are making such a ruckus about it, even people who couldn't have cared less are checking it out just out of curiosity. Like I said, I'd never even HEARD of the trilogy until I saw folks on the Jeremy Camp board saying how AWFUL it was and how there needed to be a boycott on it, etc. Now I'm the 32nd person in line on the reserve list to get it.

It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for them to call me to pick it up. :)

[Pixie Wildflower]

Well, it might be confusing for young children. I really think the books are quite complex to be marketed towards young children. People should definitely discuss with the children and make sure they know it's certainly not reality.

The first book I liked very much. I look forward to the movie. The second and third books are more controversial for sure. As an adult, I could take it with a grain of salt and say, "This guy has some imagination". I would be concerned about very young children however. It's different when it's something totally different from this reality as in the Wizard of Oz or Harry Potter. But when it includes things from this reality, including people's religious beliefs, it could probably get really confusing for a young child.

[The Unknown Gomer]

I just discovered that they have an exerpt from the first chapter on the library site where I put the book on reserve. It looks interesting. Even if they spell things funny. ;) (I know, the guy is British, if I remember correctly).

What little I just read of it, if feels kind of like the Gormenghast Trilogy, if you ever read that. It seems to have a very gothic-y, alternate universe - like feel to it.

And, lol, look at that, I just googled Gormenghast to see if I'd spelled it correctly (it's been a LONG time since I read that series), pulled up the page for it at Amazon.com, and what is listed under

What Do Customers Ultimately Buy After Viewing Items Like This?

and what shows up in the list, but

3% buy
His Dark Materials Trilogy (The Golden Compass; The Subtle Knife; The Amber Spyglass) (669)

Go figure. :)

[The Unknown Gomer]

Hey, it only took 5 days to get through 32 people; I just got a call from the library, the book is in. Guess I'll take a walk over at lunchtime and pick it up.

[Pixie Wildflower]

Let me know what you think. I never heard of the Gormenghast Trilogy. Hmmm, did you like it? Would you recommend it?

[The Unknown Gomer]

I'm liking it pretty well, so far, and better than I thought I would. Lyra just got rescued by the gypsies after running away from the gal with the golden haired monkey.

Gormenghast is an interesting book series. I honestly don't remember anything about it, I probably read it back in 85 or 86, except that I did finish the whole series, but by the end of it, I think I was still reading because I just didn't want to leave it unfinished after investing that much time into the series.

[Pixie Wildflower]

I see. I'll have to read some reviews before I decide at Gormenghast. There are SO many things to read out there though, I am sure I will find something.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Finished The Golden Compass last week and turned it back in last weekend. I really enjoyed it. Definitely a worthwhile read.

Just picked up The Subtle Knife at the library yesterday but haven't started it yet.

[Pixie Wildflower]

Finished The Golden Compass last week and turned it back in last weekend. I really enjoyed it. Definitely a worthwhile read.

Just picked up The Subtle Knife at the library yesterday but haven't started it yet.

Let us all know what you think!

[clemsontigers23]

This is truly shocking to see.

I'm a high school student. At my high school and in middle and high schools across the country, ChannelOne News is shown everyday. ChannelOne News features a number of commercials, but there was one such commercial which caused a shockwave in our Bible class: the trailer for The Golden Compass. 11-18 year olds, 98% of them not knowing what the books are about, are being exposed to this. This man is purposely using these books to spread atheism and destroy Christianity, and yet people continue to PRAISE it?

Truly shocking, it really is. Not much surprises me but this is just too much. Is it not disturbing that in the movie they all dance around a dead body that represents our Lord and Savior and celebrate? It makes me sick to see that so many unsuspecting children are being exposed to this TRASH.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Already had a similar discussion in the CE/HT thread, and have no intention of doing it again here.

If you want to discuss any of the book's plot points, or how well it was written, or how descriptive the author is to the point where you can almost visualize what he's writing about, I'm game. At this point, all I know is that I read the first book, thoroughly enjoyed it, found nothing offensive in it, and wasted no time getting the second one.

So far as any of my thoughts about the movie, which really belong in a whole other thread anyway, those will just have to wait. I've not seen the movie yet, nor have I seen anything but a couple of trailers about it, none of which included the scene that you mentioned (come to think of it, neither did the book.) And I won't praise - or condemn - something solely based on someone else's description of it, without checking it out myself first.

Meanwhile, I'll most likely be starting the first few chapters of The Subtle Knife before bed tonight. I'll keep any interested Book Clubbers posted on anything I find notable as I go along... :)

[The Unknown Gomer]

Got up to chapter 4 last night before I decided, since it was closing in to 2am and I had to get up this morning to pack for the Greenville/Fayetteville shows this weekend, to crash for the night.

This one is starting out to be just as good as the last one. It was really hard to put down last night. There seem to be more mentions of "The Church" and Cardinals and such than there were in the first one already, but nothing to make any sort of brouhaha about it.

Seems kind of odd to have Lyra be sort of a secondary character in this one so far; they're focusing more on Will, and HIS point of view when he meets Lyra for the first time.

To be continued...

[RevZeek]

As a children's librarian at a public library I can attest that these books have been popular for quite a while. The movie coming out has only increased that.
Just wanted to point that out.

[The Unknown Gomer]

I'm sure it definitely has. The books are 12 years old, and you KNOW it's just because of the movie, and all the fuss and bother over it, that is keeping at least the first book on a reserve waiting list 32 patrons deep.

I'D never even heard of these books, or the author, until the anti-movie threads started popping up on various boards. I'm kind of glad they did, I am finding the books to be a very entertaining read. :)

[kiwisongbird]

Yup, our local librarian has recommended these books to Nico and Andre many times over the past five years, now both boys know all about them, and it's mainly the negative publicity they're getting that's doing it!

Andre (15) can read them if he wants to, but he doesn't want to - Nicodemus - no, but when he's 15, sure he can make that choice. Me, I don't like that genre so won't, but only read Da Vinci Code because of the negative publicity!

[Pixie Wildflower]

"Is it not disturbing that in the movie they all dance around a dead body that represents our Lord and Savior and celebrate? "

I don't read this in the books anywhere. If it's in the movie, it's been added. Do you have a link to that particular trailer? None of the trailors I have seen are like that. I know when the book's version of God dies...I think in the third book, it's kinda sad. I don't remember any one dancing....he's kinda in the background most of the time because things are being run by Metatron, an ambitious high angel (formerly the man Enoch) that came to power. See, in the book, the one people worshipped as God started as an angel too and grew to power. Not theologically correct of course, but it's fiction. Atheists tend to disavow this books because, even if God isn't portrayed theologically correct, there still are higher, supernatural powers, angels and the like. Things that atheists don't believe in as all. It's all just fantasy, though not appropriate for everyone of course, but I hardly think it promotes the cause of atheism with all the supernatural goings on in the book. I don't think really young children should read it. There is a war going on and that means violence. I think Parents should read any book of this nature before allowing their children too, at least up to a certain age.

Here is more information on the characters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials#Charac ter_histories

I don't want to say too much here, since some people are still reading the books and we wouldn't want to spoil too much of the plot for them.

[clemsontigers23]

Actually, I heard about that scene but I might have heard wrong. Either way, killing "God" is bad enough. Mr. Pullman thinks Narnia is poison to kids' minds...his books are almost deadly and if he doesn't repent he'll pay for his deception of little children in the end. Our Lord and Savior talked about how bad it would be for those who deceive children, which is why I find it even more unbelievable that His followers are reading something that He would not approve of at all.

[Pixie Wildflower]

Well, anytime an author, poet, musician or artist releases a work, it is no longer theirs alone, but then belongs to others to interpret. I agree that little children should not be able to read these books, esp because there is war and violence. I wouldn't let a little child watch the news either. The story is in itself so complex, it would be best understood by those in middle adolescense and later. No one "kills" God in the book...though he does perish, because in the book, he's an angel and apparently these angels can undergo some kind of death or change of existence. Once again, not theologically correct, but it is fiction and not theology. I don't want to discuss things too deeply because some in this discussion are still reading the books and spoilers aren't nice!

[Trillamum]

Yeah, as literary works, I LOVED these books. I have major issues with the whole killing God thing, which is why I refuse to pay to go see the movie. (should any of my theatre buddies be able to get me in for free though, I'll be there). I particularly enjoyed the scenes with Lyra in the gypsy camps...the detail, throughout the books but particularly there for me, is so compelling. Iorek Bernison (sp?) is also a favourite character, who I believe will be portrayed quite perfectly in the movie.

[The Unknown Gomer]

I'm still plugging away at the second book, and loving it. I actually hope the movie does well, so they'll make a sequel based on The Subtle Knife, if for nothing else, the special effects as they're cutting the "doors" to alternate worlds should be something to see.

But see, the guy has a very VISUAL way of writing that does make it fairly easy to picture the scenes that he's writing about while you're reading it, and that's one of the things that I'm loving about this book series. A lot of writers just write lots of words words words, and while you read them, there's not a whole lot of visualization going on. Not this guy.

I do plan on seeing the movie, if for no other reason than to see how they handle actually making some of his book effects into FX in the movie. :cool:

[clemsontigers23]

I'm still plugging away at the second book, and loving it. I actually hope the movie does well, so they'll make a sequel based on The Subtle Knife, if for nothing else, the special effects as they're cutting the "doors" to alternate worlds should be something to see.

But see, the guy has a very VISUAL way of writing that does make it fairly easy to picture the scenes that he's writing about while you're reading it, and that's one of the things that I'm loving about this book series. A lot of writers just write lots of words words words, and while you read them, there's not a whole lot of visualization going on. Not this guy.

I do plan on seeing the movie, if for no other reason than to see how they handle actually making some of his book effects into FX in the movie. :cool:

What about the fact that my Christian friend saw the commercial for this movie, not knowing what it was about, and commented that he would like to see it? The Bible says that satan disguises himself as an "angel of light" and this is no different. Because of the special effects, millions of young, impressionable Christians are going to see this movie, be attracted to the books, and their faith and the fate of their eternal soul could be in jeopardy. YOU may not be affected by it, but millions of others WILL.

If the movie does well, then atheism in children's literature will spread like wildfire. And you HOPE it does well? Wow.

If you want to see a great movie based on a book NOT written by a guy whose goal is to destroy our faith in Jesus Christ, then go see Narnia: Prince of Caspian May 16th. You talk about special FX...this movie looks incredible. The trailer's online, and I believe there's a link to it in the Entertainment section.

[Pixie Wildflower]

Yeah, as literary works, I LOVED these books. I have major issues with the whole killing God thing, which is why I refuse to pay to go see the movie. (should any of my theatre buddies be able to get me in for free though, I'll be there). I particularly enjoyed the scenes with Lyra in the gypsy camps...the detail, throughout the books but particularly there for me, is so compelling. Iorek Bernison (sp?) is also a favourite character, who I believe will be portrayed quite perfectly in the movie.

He is my favorite character in the books. I know the bad theology in the books do make people uncomfortable but they hardly have anything to do with the real world.

[Pixie Wildflower]

What about the fact that my Christian friend saw the commercial for this movie, not knowing what it was about, and commented that he would like to see it? The Bible says that satan disguises himself as an "angel of light" and this is no different. Because of the special effects, millions of young, impressionable Christians are going to see this movie, be attracted to the books, and their faith and the fate of their eternal soul could be in jeopardy. YOU may not be affected by it, but millions of others WILL.

If the movie does well, then atheism in children's literature will spread like wildfire. And you HOPE it does well? Wow.

If you want to see a great movie based on a book NOT written by a guy whose goal is to destroy our faith in Jesus Christ, then go see Narnia: Prince of Caspian May 16th. You talk about special FX...this movie looks incredible. The trailer's online, and I believe there's a link to it in the Entertainment section.

I don't think it will help the cause of atheism since there are supernatural events in the books and atheists disavow the supernatural. They dismiss these books as pure fantasy, which is what they are. BTW, Jesus is barely referred to in these books, probably because they involve parallel worlds with differing viewpoints on what they refer to as "The Authority". If any one takes a beating, it is the church people who try to force their ideals on others. The world Lyra lives in seems to be still in Inquisition times, so to speak. While, we all wish people to share our religion, we all should agree it is not right to force that choice on anyone.

I think the books are so complex and contain violence (there is a war going on), they shouldn't be read by very small children anyway. Any parent should monitor anything their child is reading and discuss it with them. But I think these books are better understood by older adolescents and adults. It's not like reading Winnie the Pooh!

I know many Christians who have read this books and it didn't tempt them to turn away...they knew they were reading fiction. These books have been around over a decade, it's only the movie causing the fuss.

I started this thread to converse with people who have actually read the books. Not to discuss the movie (which is just opening this weekend) or to spread "what people are saying", but simply to discuss the book with people who have actually read it and hear their interpretations. No doubt each one will be different!

But anyone who is interested can read this conversation between Phillip Pullman and Rowan Williams (The Archbishop of Canterbury), though there are spoilers in the conversation for those still reading the books:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/03/17/bodark17.xml&page=1

Another interesting thing (from Wikipedia)

"However, Pullman has found support from other Christians, most notably Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury. These groups and individuals contend that Pullman's negative portrayal of the "Church" in His Dark Materials amounts to an attack on dogmatism and the use of religion to oppress, not on Christianity itself. Dr. Williams has gone so far as to propose that His Dark Materials be taught as part of religious education in schools. Moreover, authors of works dedicated to critical appraisals of religious themes in his writing have described Pullman as a friendly and generous debating partner[10].

Other Christian writers, such as Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware, while finding his anti-Christian position troubling, "also uncover spiritual themes within the books, which, like shafts of light, break through an otherwise gloomy universe—despite Pullman’s best efforts to keep them out. In the end, the authors argue that Pullman offers an unwitting tribute to the God he intended to discredit."[11] in their book "

Once again, we go back to how a person interprets what they read. Whatever Philip Pullman ever intended doesn't really matter, since the work no longer belongs just to him, but to the public imagination.

The simplest answer is that if you are uncomfortable, don't see the movie or read the books. You can only make up your own mind, but not the minds of others.

Adults can make up their own minds and as for children, that responsibility will lie with the parents.

One thing I enjoyed personally about the books, is how clean they were. With so much sex and foul language in many books and on TV, it was good to read a story that didn't rely on these, but simply a story itself.

[The Unknown Gomer]

What about the fact that my Christian friend saw the commercial for this movie, not knowing what it was about, and commented that he would like to see it? The Bible says that satan disguises himself as an "angel of light" and this is no different. Because of the special effects, millions of young, impressionable Christians are going to see this movie, be attracted to the books, and their faith and the fate of their eternal soul could be in jeopardy. YOU may not be affected by it, but millions of others WILL.

If the movie does well, then atheism in children's literature will spread like wildfire. And you HOPE it does well? Wow.

And so what if it does? Athiests have just as much a right to write books as Christian writers. This Golden Compass series has been out (and apparently been fairly popular in their own right, even before the movie) for 12 years, and I've never heard a thing at all about a huge growth in the athiestic population in this country because people have been reading it.

So far as the movie goes (still hate to comment on it since I've not seen it), but you think that people are going to see this and "their faith and the fate of their eternal soul could be in jeopardy"? "Wow" right back at you. IMHO, you give WAY to much credit to this movie and the movie going population in general. The way I see it, what is going to happen is that the majority of movie goers are going to go see this movie, say "Wow, what a great fantasy adventure movie! It was just as good as LOTR and/or Narnia and/or Harry Potter!" And that will be the end of it. The odds of anyone turning athiest and turning away from God because of watching this thing I think are probably slim to none. (again, this is basing my opinion on a movie I haven't seen yet, so once I DO check it out, that opinion may change. But having read the first book, unless they stray very far from the way it was written, I don't think it will.)

... I know the bad theology in the books do make people uncomfortable but they hardly have anything to do with the real world.

Thank you. That's the point I've been trying to make all along.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Just finished the second book the other night. Argh! Another cliffhanger. :cool: I've already got Amber Spyglass on reserve, but unlike Subtle Knife, which I got in just a couple of days since only 7 people or so had it on reserve, I've got to wade through 21 people before they'll call me to tell me that they've got it. Hoping to get it soon, since I've got some stuff to bring to the post office, and since I walk right by the post office to get to the library to pick up my reserve books (I LOVE working in the little town of Cary; my library is there, the post office, my dentist office, not to mention a fantastic deli which is a great place to pick up lunch on the return trip from the library, all within walking distance), I'd like to do them both in one trip.

The one thing that I'm finding interesting about the books, now that I've read two of them, is that there is a bit of a recurring theme in both of them: kid searching for a missing father. In the first one, Lyra is looking for her dad, and in the second one, Will is looking for HIS.

Some unexpected sign that maybe the author is looking for HIS missing Father? Or just a quirky coincidence? ;)

[Pixie Wildflower]

That is an interesting point and one I never thought of. Which is a good thing about discussing books with other people and hearing their interpretation of things.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Okay folks. I am only just starting Chapter 7 of The Amber Spyglass, and have two things to say about it thus far.

Numero uno: If you are only avoiding this book series (and/or the Golden Compass movie) because you think it's about killing God, don't just avoid them because of that, because regardless of what you have heard, it is NOT. And I quote directly from page 31 of the book, where one of the characters is explaining who The Authority is: " 'The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty - those were all names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves..."

Now if you've got issues with any of the other theology in the book, the angels, the witches, souls being represented by animal daemons (which again, are not even remotely like evil demons), or how the "church" is represented in the book, etc. then okay, I can respect that, since those are all things that actually ARE in the book that I know some folks have real problems with. But if your only problem with the books is that they are supposedly about "killing God", rest assured, they are not. Based on what I've read so far (and who knows, the book could turn a complete 180 on me and have it turn out to be something else entirely), "The Authority" while being evil and rather powerful, he's simply someone claiming to be God, but who is not.

That Catholic Digest article said something along those lines as well, but I wanted to read it for myself so that I could actually say "this is what it is", not "this is what someone ELSE said it is." I just didn't expect it to be so clearly stated in black and white like that.

Anyhoo... Numero dos: If anyone wants a hint as to why I really enjoy reading these books, check out this paragraph from the first page:

"It was a place of brilliant sunlight, never undappled. Shafts of lemon-gold brilliance lanced down to the forest floor between bars and pools of brown-green shade; and the light was never still, never constant, because drifting mist would often float among the treetops, filtering all the sunlight to a pearly sheen and brushing every pine cone with moisture that glistened when the mist lifted. Sometimes the wetness in the clouds condensed into tiny drops half mist and half rain, which floated downward rather than fell, making a soft rustling patter among the millions of needles."

Is it just me, or does Pullman really have a descriptive way with words? I read that at lunchtime today and just went "Wow, I want to go there!" after I read that paragraph. The whole book series is like that, he's so descriptive you can easily visualize what you're reading as you're reading it. One of the reasons that I'm almost afraid to see the movie, how often does a movie not do justice to the way you pictured things in your head while reading the book. It's like reading The Stand by Stephen King and then reading the reviews for the miniseries and knowing immediately that Molly Ringwald would make a horribly bad Frannie. :rolleyes:

Anyway, just my two additional cents on the subject now that I've actually delved into Book 3 of the trilogy. :)

[Pixie Wildflower]

So glad you are getting into the third book. Yes, the god is not really God but an angel in that story...so I guess some people would be offended by that in itself....but really in the book God is either an unknown or doesn't exist...can't kill that. Well, some people think "murdered" when they see "killed" too. As for the movie, I saw it and it was well done to be so condensed, but very glossed over. Still entertaining. It doesn't really end with the way the first book ends. They may be holding over the first book's end to put in the second movie to avoid a cliffhanger. I guess they want to see if they make enough money before doing more movies. Anyway, LOTR did that too with the Two Towers-they ended it in a way that left the ending of book to be the beginning of the third movie. Nicole Kidman made a great Mrs. Coulter. Even though in the book Mrs. Coulter had black hair, that's really trivial. Nicole Kidman played her true to form. I also loved, loved, loved the bear battle. Iorek Byrnison is perhaps my fave character of the series. Though Sam Elliot was PERFECT as Lee Scoresby. The daemons were well done in the movie as well!

[clemsontigers23]

Okay folks. I am only just starting Chapter 7 of The Amber Spyglass, and have two things to say about it thus far.

Numero uno: If you are only avoiding this book series (and/or the Golden Compass movie) because you think it's about killing God, don't just avoid them because of that, because regardless of what you have heard, it is NOT. And I quote directly from page 31 of the book, where one of the characters is explaining who The Authority is: " 'The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty - those were all names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves..."

Now if you've got issues with any of the other theology in the book, the angels, the witches, souls being represented by animal daemons (which again, are not even remotely like evil demons), or how the "church" is represented in the book, etc. then okay, I can respect that, since those are all things that actually ARE in the book that I know some folks have real problems with. But if your only problem with the books is that they are supposedly about "killing God", rest assured, they are not. Based on what I've read so far (and who knows, the book could turn a complete 180 on me and have it turn out to be something else entirely), "The Authority" while being evil and rather powerful, he's simply someone claiming to be God, but who is not.

That Catholic Digest article said something along those lines as well, but I wanted to read it for myself so that I could actually say "this is what it is", not "this is what someone ELSE said it is." I just didn't expect it to be so clearly stated in black and white like that.

Anyhoo... Numero dos: If anyone wants a hint as to why I really enjoy reading these books, check out this paragraph from the first page:

"It was a place of brilliant sunlight, never undappled. Shafts of lemon-gold brilliance lanced down to the forest floor between bars and pools of brown-green shade; and the light was never still, never constant, because drifting mist would often float among the treetops, filtering all the sunlight to a pearly sheen and brushing every pine cone with moisture that glistened when the mist lifted. Sometimes the wetness in the clouds condensed into tiny drops half mist and half rain, which floated downward rather than fell, making a soft rustling patter among the millions of needles."

Is it just me, or does Pullman really have a descriptive way with words? I read that at lunchtime today and just went "Wow, I want to go there!" after I read that paragraph. The whole book series is like that, he's so descriptive you can easily visualize what you're reading as you're reading it. One of the reasons that I'm almost afraid to see the movie, how often does a movie not do justice to the way you pictured things in your head while reading the book. It's like reading The Stand by Stephen King and then reading the reviews for the miniseries and knowing immediately that Molly Ringwald would make a horribly bad Frannie. :rolleyes:

Anyway, just my two additional cents on the subject now that I've actually delved into Book 3 of the trilogy. :)

That first passage only justifies what we've been saying all along. The fact that they refer to Him as "Yahweh, Adonai, the Creator, etc." is obvious that he's referring to God. Put that together with Pullman's quote about wanting to "kill God in the minds of children" and it's even more obvious what Pullman's agenda is by writing these books. It's blasphemy to say that God is a lunatic angel who's no better than us who simply claims to be God. There is only one God Pullman is referring to, and it is our God. If you want to continue reading something that blasphemes the name of God, no one here can stop you. But don't try to convince us that this book doesn't blaspheme God and that we're wrong because all you did was justify the position we've had all along.

[The Unknown Gomer]

...It's blasphemy to say that God is a lunatic angel who's no better than us who simply claims to be God....

Read it again. Nobody is calling God a "lunatic angel". Nobody is calling God ANYTHING. The character that they are referring to is a phony and a fraud and someone who is trying to SAY that he is God, but who is NOT. They come right out and say that point blank in black and white. What part of "He was never the creator" do you not get? In saying that, the book says that there IS a creator, but that this guy in NOT it.

If someone is out there wandering around impersonating the president and pretending to be him. And he is shot and killed. Was the real president shot and killed? No, of course not. Just some lunatic who was impersonating him.

Same situation here. In this book, someone who is trying to impersonate God is killed. The real God is NOT. Maybe the book series needs some sort of disclaimer like they do with animals in the movies, stating emphatically that none are hurt in the books.

So again, yes, there ARE lots of things for people to take issue with in this book series, and with the author (although just once I'd like to see BOTH quotes from Pullman mentioned in the same post: the one from 2003 about "killing God" that everyone LOVES to quote, as well as the one from earlier this year that says something completely different. I don't actually put a lot of faith in either; people will tell the press whatever they feel they need to to sell more books.)

But if the only reason that some folk are avoiding this book is because supposedly God is killed, it's being avoided for a reason that doesn't exist.

[Pixie Wildflower]

It's quite a paradox that Mr. Pullman created and if his intention was to promote atheism, it does it poorly. Well, most atheists I've encountered say the books don't help at all, that it is only fantasy...they don't believe in angels either. In any case, I don't think younger children could "get" alot of the stuff in this trilogy and teens and adults couldn't be moved either. Whatever Mr. Pullman's intentions were, the books are open to the public's interpertation of them.