Marijuana

[clemsontigers23]

Does the Bible say anything about marijuana? If not, why are there so many people convinced that marijuana is actually good for you?

I haven't heard a legitimate reason why it's bad for you besides increased chance of lung cancer...can anyone give me some reasons? I'm pretty sure God doesn't want us doing it, but I need to be able to back that up.

[middletree]

I am firmly convinced that it opens up doors to evil spirits. I have absolutely no proof of this. Sorry, I know that isn't much help. If it's a Christian you are talking to, it might help. Then again, if it's a Christian you're talking to, then they should respect the state laws and that should be enough.

[clemsontigers23]

I know a guy who might be a Christian, might not be...he used to go to a Christian school and has basically been raised as a Christian for the most part but he explained to me that marijuana makes both sides of the brain work together, therefore making us smarter, but from what I've heard it kills brain cells.

He said Einstein smoked weed...a lot of the people I know who are in the church are basically pot heads. I agree with you...I think marijuana makes people delusional and opens the door to demon spirits but this guy likes to talk on an intellectual level so I'm not sure how he would respond to that.

The state laws thing is a good reason, but what if it's legalized? How could I ever convince my kids they shouldn't smoke it?

[bvc]

well, if we are not to be drunk with wine to the point it effects (in excess) us, why would it be any different for any drug, other than for medicinal purposes as wine can also be used for?

I agree with middletree that it can open doors to evil spirits, not to mention enhance our many lust in our own flesh. I smoked marijuana for 4 years before I was saved and refusing to give it up continued for 2 years after I was saved. I knew it was wrong before I was saved by conscience, and after I was saved by the presence of the Spirit and conscience giving witness, not because of what anyone told me.

It makes you lazy or at least less productive, leads to munchies (eating a lot of ...anything LOL), sleeping too much, and enhances the lusts of the flesh, all of which there are scriptures.

marijuana is not in scripture but drugs and there connection to witchcraft is. Jesus refused the gall at the cross (yes I realize he was performing our sacrifice) and John the baptist wasn't given to strong drink either. Historical fact link drugs with all types of immoral behavior.

Bottom line is the conscience of the individual and is there any good fruit in doing it.

[bvc]

I know a guy who might be a Christian, might not be...he used to go to a Christian school and has basically been raised as a Christian for the most part but he explained to me that marijuana makes both sides of the brain work together, therefore making us smarter, but from what I've heard it kills brain cells.

He said Einstein smoked weed...a lot of the people I know who are in the church are basically pot heads. I agree with you...I think marijuana makes people delusional and opens the door to demon spirits but this guy likes to talk on an intellectual level so I'm not sure how he would respond to that.

The state laws thing is a good reason, but what if it's legalized? How could I ever convince my kids they shouldn't smoke it?So God was unable to make our brains works as he pleased?

Was Einstein godly? Did Jesus smoke weed?
The state of the modern church that can't endure sound doctrine is irrelevant too.
Is what he thinks (you say he is an intellectual) better than the will of God to abstain from all forms of evil? Then let him profess to be wise and become a fool, after he has been warned. Where is the Spirit and his conscience? Is he really born again?

You teach you kids the word of God, and how you live and the fruit of Jesus in your life verifies its truth.

[clemsontigers23]

So God was unable to make our brains works as he pleased?

Was Einstein godly? Did Jesus smoke weed?
The state of the modern church that can't endure sound doctrine is irrelevant too.
Is what he thinks (you say he is an intellectual) better than the will of God to abstain from all forms of evil? Then let him profess to be wise and become a fool, after he has been warned. Where is the Spirit and his conscience? Is he really born again?

You teach you kids the word of God, and how you live and the fruit of Jesus in your life verifies its truth.

When I say he likes to talk on an intellectual, I mean he doesn't buy into the simple explanation of it's "immoral." Sadly, that's not good enough for many people, and many don't see it as being such. Judging by your past experience with marijuana, you give a great example of how marijuana can affect a person negatively in many ways.

I don't know if Einstein was a godly person...I've never heard any evidence supporting the idea that he was. The guy I'm talking about goes to church, but he goes to the largest church in the community, a church featuring many of the football players, cheerleaders, politicians, community leaders who have no evidence of God in their life. His manner of speaking and his ideas aren't consistent with doctrinal living...he's very popular and very quick to put others down. But he's not alone. There is a very large movement in the U.S. for the legalization of marijuana...I read an article on AOL.com where a mother said smoking marijuana helped her be more relaxed and more playful with her kids and many of the comments were putting down "religious freaks" and such.

If you want to read the article and comments, you can find it here: http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2007/08/10/smoking-pot-makes-me-a-better-mother/2

You bring up a good point though...it's pretty sad when "it's wrong" isn't taken as a valid argument anymore.

[bvc]

I agree, like I said, I knew it was morally wrong before I was saved. It was considered a large movement to legalize pot 15 years ago, and 15 years before that. The movement really hasn't grown much. May be more organized though. It won't go anywhere because the gov makes far more off illegal drugs through weak policy that promotes illegal drugs than it ever could off taxing them, but that's some future E conspiracy thread :D

[clemsontigers23]

I agree, like I said, I knew it was morally wrong before I was saved. It was considered a large movement to legalize pot 15 years ago, and 15 years before that. The movement really hasn't grown much. May be more organized though. It won't go anywhere because the gov makes far more off illegal drugs through weak policy that promotes illegal drugs than it ever could off taxing them, but that's some future E conspiracy thread :D

LOL I've heard that from a lot of people...I expect E to come in any minute now and say something about that. ;)

[sandie]

I know a guy who might be a Christian, might not be...he used to go to a Christian school and has basically been raised as a Christian for the most part but he explained to me that marijuana makes both sides of the brain work together, therefore making us smarter, but from what I've heard it kills brain cells.

He said Einstein smoked weed...a lot of the people I know who are in the church are basically pot heads. I agree with you...I think marijuana makes people delusional and opens the door to demon spirits but this guy likes to talk on an intellectual level so I'm not sure how he would respond to that.

The state laws thing is a good reason, but what if it's legalized? How could I ever convince my kids they shouldn't smoke it?

One of the groomsmen at my wedding many years ago used pot regularly and sold it to on a small time basis. After a few years of using pot, Peter was becoming delusional. He wanted to go to Queensland for a holiday, but thought the police would be at the border, waiting for him. He was intelligent, but wasted his life smoking pot with his mates and not working.

[bvc]

yes, it does cause or increase paranoia

[Pouye]

yes, it does cause or increase paranoia

Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that everyone's not out to get you! :D

I've never smoked anything in my life. Inhaling smoke just seems not very bright to me -- not only from a health perspective, but also simple common sense tells me that inhaling smoke or other agents isn't wise. (I do use an inhaler for asthma... but that is different because it has been tested for many years and is for a specific medical purpose).

Something I've noticed of pot smokers/ex-pot smokers (and this cannot be confirmed, so take it as opinion) is that they seem to be very emotionally and mentally tied to the era or time in which they smoked pot. They seem sort of "stuck" in the mentality of whatever time they used to us the drug. I don't know if this is caused from just the strong synaptic impressions that are built during this time (I know that pot increases and heightens certain mental awareness levels to the extreme). This is just something I've observed. After talking with an ex-pot smoker for a few minutes, it seems their mind often drifts back to the time when they were using pot -- as if that time is very memorable and still very vivid -- and the mentality, personality, ideas, dreams or pretty much who they were then is projected on the person they are now. In this way, it can seem they "never grew up" or haven't really matured beyond that era of their lives.

I'm not saying that all ex-pot smokers are like this to an extreme. Many are in the here and now, and doing just fine. But even so, it usually doesn't take me too long to spot the trend of "mentality regression", especially if I mention anything about pot.

Rock

[bvc]

LOL
yes, one that listens to their conscience is very aware when they break the law ;) The less moral pot smoker doesn't get paranoid. That's something I have always observed.

Now that you mention it, everyone I have ever known that has asthma has never smoked anything.

I'll confirmed your thought that a lot of pot smokers/ex-pot smokers are 'stuck' and 'never grew up'. I currently know people in their 30's that fit your discription. A lot of ex-pot smokers are so just because of the drug test of their employers and would happily start again if not for the drug test.

[middletree]

The state laws thing is a good reason, but what if it's legalized? How could I ever convince my kids they shouldn't smoke it?
Teach them about spiritual warfare, and how we are in a war, whether we want to think we are or not.

[Evanescence]

I agree, like I said, I knew it was morally wrong before I was saved. It was considered a large movement to legalize pot 15 years ago, and 15 years before that. The movement really hasn't grown much. May be more organized though. It won't go anywhere because the gov makes far more off illegal drugs through weak policy that promotes illegal drugs than it ever could off taxing them, but that's some future E conspiracy thread :D

Ask and ye shall recieve....:cool:

Sorry but I am NOT for legalizing Pot, but I do believe that illegal and legal drugs are a HUGE reason for moral and social decay in America. Some have said the CIA allows the dope to come into the USA etc etc, but I havn't looked into it.....and have no intent to :P

I have a friend who is a devout born again Christian....and he still smokes weed on occasion. He grows his own, wife allows him (she's a devout Christian as well, but doesn't smoke) but they don't let their kids know anything about it. He smokes about 1-4 times a month and only in his home.

My beef is that some people will justify "medication" given to them by a doctor, but not some wine, beer or weed to calm the soul. If we say its OK for someone to have 1-2 glasses of wine to relax (catch a small buzz) but say that taking a few hits of Pot is wrong, that doesn't make much sense.

The fact that its illegal doesn't really bother me, as far as using it goes, but it surely DOES lead to other stuff...in most cases, so I say a resounding NO to legalizing it. But smoking a little bit in moderation.....man, I don't know.

We can trick our minds into thinking EVERYTHING is wrong....or EVERYTHING is right. Religious fanatics, Bible worshippers and Ultra-Liberal New Agers both go to extremes in this fashion, many times. So, how does God feel about it? I just don't know....

I guess its just like a lot of things...

PS...Did I mention Bush Sr. was the head of the CIA for quite while? ;)

[cross hearted]

Evanesence wrote
We can trick our minds into thinking EVERYTHING is wrong....or EVERYTHING is right. Religious fanatics, Bible worshippers and Ultra-Liberal New Agers both go to extremes in this fashion, many times. So, how does God feel about it? I just don't know....

I am not as given to the idea that marijuana is a gateway for demon activity any more than any other fleshly behavior. I am not one to argue over legality or law issues other than as a witness we should obey the laws of the country we are in unless they are directly opposed to the worship and belief in the Lord. People also speak of moral issues which then depends on whose moral values you choose to follow (whether they are the Lords moral issues or self imposed moral issues) which I believe are decided in the individual conscience at times.

Here is my point of view, There is a scripture that speaks about being under the power or influence of our choices.
1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

The truth is that we have been given a freedom (from the law/ordinances)) that is more than what we really understand. But even though we have this great liberty the one thing that is included in this scripture is the fact of being brought under the power
exousiazō--- to have power or authority, use power
a) to be master of any one, exercise authority over one
b) to be master of the body
1) to have full and entire authority over the body
2) to hold the body subject to one's will
c) to be brought under the power of anyone

To me the issue isn’t moral, legal, demonic, but the true issue is what am I going to let control my life. What am I going to allow to have an influence and dominion over my will and heart. Whether it be a drink of wine , pot, or any other outside influence on my flesh that could derail or inhibit my seeking and drawing close to the Lord would have to go. The only influence we should have is that of the Spirit and there is a scripture that relates to this
Ephesians 5:18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Then I will finish with this
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

[DareDevil]

(...)

I'm not saying that all ex-pot smokers are like this to an extreme. Many are in the here and now, and doing just fine. But even so, it usually doesn't take me too long to spot the trend of "mentality regression", especially if I mention anything about pot.

Rock
That's the point. Some can handle it and many cannot. Personally, I know a few occasional pot smokers who smoke it only every couple of months at a party, but I've also encountered a lot of pot heads who've become so apathic from smoking pot that they are only barely more alive than a rock (No pun intended!).

BTW, personally I've never smoked it although I had plenty of opportunities to do so and that even before I had found to God. I don't know how to explain it, but it never felt like a good idea.

[Evanescence]

That's the point. Some can handle it and many cannot. Personally, I know a few occasional pot smokers who smoke it only every couple of months at a party, but I've also encountered a lot of pot heads who've become so apathic from smoking pot that they are only barely more alive than a rock (No pun intended!).

BTW, personally I've never smoked it although I had plenty of opportunities to do so and that even before I had found to God. I don't know how to explain it, but it never felt like a good idea.

I did...but I didn't inhale....:cool:

[Pouye]

To me the issue isn’t moral, legal, demonic, but the true issue is what am I going to let control my life. What am I going to allow to have an influence and dominion over my will and heart. Whether it be a drink of wine , pot, or any other outside influence on my flesh that could derail or inhibit my seeking and drawing close to the Lord would have to go.

This is pretty much my take, too. I don't want anything to control my life (aside from the Holy Spirit), and there isn't really any positive reason to do drugs, drink (to get drunk), or anything like that.

Humans like to feel pleasure, and God is the one who made our pleasure centers in the brain. There are godly ways to experience pleasure, and then there are ungodly ways. For me, I think it is much more of a "high" to really experience life in all its fullness. That is one of the reasons why Jesus came -- to give us life and to live that life to the fullest.

There are many substitutes for godly pleasure, but nothing compares to finding your pleasure and joy in Jesus Christ, and in the things of God. I'm as guilty as anyone else for falling for substitutes at times -- even if they are legal and "harmless". Many times I find my thoughts wandering into things that are not pleasing to God, and I have to constantly remember to "take captive every thought" for the Lord. There is nothing wrong with enjoying certain things in life as long as they do not begin to take mastery of you -- for even adrenaline rushes can become addictive and end up ruling (and ruining) your life.

Rock

[clemsontigers23]

This is pretty much my take, too. I don't want anything to control my life (aside from the Holy Spirit), and there isn't really any positive reason to do drugs, drink (to get drunk), or anything like that.

Humans like to feel pleasure, and God is the one who made our pleasure centers in the brain. There are godly ways to experience pleasure, and then there are ungodly ways. For me, I think it is much more of a "high" to really experience life in all its fullness. That is one of the reasons why Jesus came -- to give us life and to live that life to the fullest.

There are many substitutes for godly pleasure, but nothing compares to finding your pleasure and joy in Jesus Christ, and in the things of God. I'm as guilty as anyone else for falling for substitutes at times -- even if they are legal and "harmless". Many times I find my thoughts wandering into things that are not pleasing to God, and I have to constantly remember to "take captive every thought" for the Lord. There is nothing wrong with enjoying certain things in life as long as they do not begin to take mastery of you -- for even adrenaline rushes can become addictive and end up ruling (and ruining) your life.

Rock

I think that brings up a very good point. It's more than likely a sin because it's using a potentially dangerous substance to get "high" or whatever instead of trusting God to give you the greatest "high" of all with no strings attached. It's almost like "I don't need you God...I've got this." I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I just think smoking pot is trying to find an alternative to God to experiencing joy.

[Just Joan]

I've heard that the word for "witchcraft" or "sorcery" in the Bible is related to the word that we get the word "pharmacy" from.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The one called witchcraft (sorcery) in the Greek language is Pharmakia .

These practices have to do with doing what pleases each person, rather than being sober and obedient. I imagine there are positive things that a person might try to say about other items in this list, but that really is beside the point. Sometimes the bad effects of acting independently from God are long-term, and may not be directly related to the action itself.

[Pouye]

I've heard that the word for "witchcraft" or "sorcery" in the Bible is related to the word that we get the word "pharmacy" from.



The one called witchcraft (sorcery) in the Greek language is Pharmakia .

These practices have to do with doing what pleases each person, rather than being sober and obedient. I imagine there are positive things that a person might try to say about other items in this list, but that really is beside the point. Sometimes the bad effects of acting independently from God are long-term, and may not be directly related to the action itself.

I see the results of Pharmakia every day in Papua New Guinea. Sorcery involves rituals that include charms, potions, etc. Often the person doing the sorcery eats or drinks some "magical" concoction. In our area, it is a special type of ginger root mixed with blood that gives the eater the power to perform curses or cast spells. Many tribal groups practice eating or drinking hallucinogenic concoctions to enter a trance-like state and receive revelation , instruction and/or power from a "higher" being. In Papua New Guinea, fight leaders would do this (and still do sometimes today) as a prerequisite for going to war.

Many people who use mind altering drugs do so for spiritual reasons. In fact, it is this desire for "ascension" that drives millions to use illicit drugs in both the Eastern and Western world. Illegal/illicit drugs are often used in witchcraft rituals today.

Rock

[Bryon]

Many people who use mind altering drugs do so for spiritual reasons. In fact, it is this desire for "ascension" that drives millions to use illicit drugs in both the Eastern and Western world. Illegal/illicit drugs are often used in witchcraft rituals today.

Rock

I'll back you up on that, practitioners of witchcraft use something called "flying ointment" a concoction of Beladona, nightshade, and opium spread on more porus sensitive areas of the body. Though not officially sanctioned my experience with the OTO had the use of hash brownies during the monthly gnostic mass. My own personal opinion at that time in my life was I could take drugs or leave them, they did not matter to me and did nothing more than make me paranoid (or extremely euphoric as was the case with coke, and that terrified me more).

It is a different matter now, it takes so little an amount of weed to get a buzz that the Biblical warning to not become drunk comes into play instantly.

[kiwisongbird]

When I dislocated my elbow I would have a a glass of red wine each evening to relax me as it seemed to keep me calm so my arm wouldn't hurt so much - have to admit that if dope was legal I would have smoked it during this time as it would have been a much more efficient pain killer... however, the use of marijuana to get out of it, is obviously unGodly as it is making it so you have no or little control over yourself - thoughts and actions... the whole thing of not letting anything have control over you is very clear in the Word... but this would also include food, other people, prescription drugs and so on...

I think the thing many legalisation people get annoyed about is the double standards of people who oppose marijuana and there are many, many of them...

I'm sure if the breweries could somehow make the lion's share of the money out it, they would have managed to get it legalised by now!!

The spiritual aspects, I do agree with, I think they are opened up many ways though - the whole thing of smoking dope is about how "I" feel, so is pretty selfish and fleshy really, also combined with alternative lifestyles at times, then the choice of music and attitude to authority - all sorts of stuff...

Also when I smoked dope, there was a greater opportunity to try other drugs - some people pooh pooh this but from experience I can say that if I hadn't known people who sold dope, then I would definitely not have got to know people who sold speed and heroin and other stuff either - you just end up mixing with people like that... also it may sound like a myth that dealers mix other drugs with marijuana, but they do - won't bother you with the story, but this has happened to me and my friends, oh many, many years ago -

NOW, not wanting Rock to think that I'm off back into my younger days cos I got stuck there! :cool: :eek: I will now end this post with this comment....

I am a new creation - YAY YAY, Thank you Jesus!!! :) :) :)

[mat1583]

In my opinion there is no difference between someone drinking alcohol to get drunk and someone smoking pot to get high. The only difference according to law is that one was stupidly made illegal. Fortunately our government saw the mistake with alcohol and repealed the prohibition, but unfortunately they have not done the same with the so called "drug war".

Buuuuut, since this discussion is not directly about it's legality, I'll get back on topic. Last year when I was as senior in college, I met this guy in one of my classes that eventually became a pretty good friend of mine. He was a very intellectual person, very studious, and intelligent. After getting to know him better, I found out that he smoked pot regularly. I also discovered that he was a Christian. At first I didn't really know what to think of it all. A Christian and a pot smoker?

But my first impression of him didn't change much. He made it to all his classes, studied often, and was a great teammate in group projects. In other words, he functioned completely normal even sometimes when he was a little buzzed. Eventually I started talking to him about his pot smoking and how he thought it was alright to smoke. He explained to me that when he smokes, he doesn't get completely high. He only smokes enough to get a slight buzz, similar to doing the same with alcohol. Because he doesn't get stoned, he's still able to function as normal. This is also the reason he believed it was ok to smoke - he was smoking in moderation and not getting stoned.

I couldn't really argue against that. If he really isn't getting high and it's not controlling his life, I could not tell him it was wrong for him as a Christian to smoke pot (except for it being illegal). As the semester was coming to a close, he did decide to stop smoking completely so he wouldn't fail any drug tests by potential employers. He was 3 months clean the last time I saw him (at graduation).

I know that not all pot smokers are like this...but not all people that drink alcohol drink in moderation either. I think that if pot were legal ( as it should be), if smoked in complete moderation and if it didn't control one's life, I could not explain to another Christian why they shouldn't be smoking pot.

-washboard

[Just Joan]

It's interesting to see this discussion and compare it to a book I'm reading now about our "self" image in a Christian context. The book is proposing the idea that we support our "self" with many sorts of idols, which can seem innocent enough but which actually are spiritual rebellion against God. (note: the book doesn't say taking care of yourself is bad, just showing how the ego/self becomes an independent ruler and a reason for acting without regard to God.)

Anything that a person uses to build their "self" up is a competition against God. If it's a practice you do which brings you an independent (apart from God) satisfaction, it's a miniature repeat of the sin in the Garden of Eden.

The book concentrates on ideas like finding comfort in dieting to gain approval from other people, or eating to fill a void -- and how these things can become false gods when it keeps us from asking the Holy Spirit to fill us when we need comfort, acceptance, or have a hunger for something.

Some of the things said re: marijuana sounds similar, comfort for self by and for your-self.

[Evanescence]

How about the use of drugs or alcohol to clam and release the stress, that HELPS us pray or get in touch/tune with God.

To release us from the constant distractions and/or stress. Artists and musicians do it soemtimes...so did the Indians with Peyote or Mushrooms.

Thoughts?

Oh yeah, how about Tylenol or other "good" drugs to help us?

Mat, I liked your answer.

[mat1583]

Oh yeah, how about Tylenol or other "good" drugs to help us?



or some caffeine in the morning to keep you awake in church, ritalin to help a child with ADD concentrate enough to pray, tylenol pm to help you get to sleep at night...all of these are drugs that have physiological and some psychological effects on the body, yet nobody condemns them. Marijuana effects the body in these ways as well and is dependent on the amount smoked. Of course it's sinful when not in moderation.

-washboard

[kiwisongbird]

How about our body is the temple of the God and if you smoke marijuana you're still doing the inhaling smoke thing, which is definitely bad for your lungs?

It's kinda like saying that it's ok to smoke cigarettes as well - which is a dumb thing to do with your body.

I think a danger with comparing alcohol and dope is that it can then get into a discussion about why is one legal and the other not? Both can be used for medicinal purposes, both can be used to merely relax a little - I don't think there's much wrong with that...

BUT - both are highly addictive if someone with an addictive leaning takes them, then whamo!! it's a huge problem... and also with dope there is usually the problem of being in contact with sources of other harder drugs as well...

[mat1583]

How about our body is the temple of the God and if you smoke marijuana you're still doing the inhaling smoke thing, which is definitely bad for your lungs?

Then what about overeating, participating in exhaustive, strenuous athletic events, listening to loud music at concerts, etc? I'm not saying you're wrong about that, but where do we draw the line?


I think a danger with comparing alcohol and dope is that it can then get into a discussion about why is one legal and the other not? Both can be used for medicinal purposes, both can be used to merely relax a little - I don't think there's much wrong with that...

So many politicians are afraid of the truth...


BUT - both are highly addictive if someone with an addictive leaning takes them, then whamo!! it's a huge problem... and also with dope there is usually the problem of being in contact with sources of other harder drugs as well...
Once you make marijuana legal, you put all the cartels out of business that were growing/smuggling pot to the US. What do you think happened with all the people who made bathtub moonshine after the prohibition was repealed? Oh and once you put the cartels out of business, what do you think will happen with the violent crime rate?

-washboard

[Evanescence]

Then what about overeating, participating in exhaustive, strenuous athletic events, listening to loud music at concerts, etc? I'm not saying you're wrong about that, but where do we draw the line?


So many politicians are afraid of the truth...


Once you make marijuana legal, you put all the cartels out of business that were growing/smuggling pot to the US. What do you think happened with all the people who made bathtub moonshine after the prohibition was repealed? Oh and once you put the cartels out of business, what do you think will happen with the violent crime rate?

-washboard

Yeah, how many fat-so's are preaching about smoking and drinking, yet are obese...

I'm gonna be one of them home-made moonshine guys....gonna make me some Ethanol to power my car/truck....:cool:

Don't drink and drive...:D

[Gandalf]

What do you think happened with all the people who made bathtub moonshine after the prohibition was repealed?
... while moonshine and smuggled liquor don't have to satisfy the demand of the entire market, there are still moonshiners out there just as there were before prohibition ever hit. There's a federal tax on distilled liquor that people try to evade - led to the first uprising that Washington had to put down after the Revolution, and the ATF still busts people for it today. It's certainly not as high-volume as it was during prohibition though.

As for marijuana, it's illegal, and therefore sinful in our country. Whether it would be possible to use it in moderation in such a way as to not be sinning seems to be rather a moot point, since the illegality of it makes the defiance and rebellion of possessing and using it in any quantity sinful in reality.

[Pouye]

I, too, think it is a moot point because it's illegal.
Also, THC (delta-9 tetrahydrocannbinol), the active ingredient in marijuana has been extensively tested and is really only valuable medicinally in a pretty narrow spectrum of medical cases (shows some promise against certain cancers). It is an approved drug (taken orally) available only via prescription for good reasons. The side affects and contraindications often outweigh the medical benefits of THC. This argument often boils down to people thinking that they know better than those who have spend decades testing THC (and monitoring the damage to the lungs if smoked), and since they just want to get high, they aren't thinking about the consequences.

I would have a problem with a Christian smoking pot simply because they do not regard the laws of the land when doing so. Obviously they think they are above the law on this issue -- but they are just fooling themselves.

Rock

[Evanescence]

Those of you who are using the "law of the land" card...

Any of you speed? Cheat on your taxes (even a little)?

Burn trash when your not supposed to? Download CDs or songs?

If legal pot could lead to other drugs and I still think it should be illegal. But I wont fault someone for doing it in moderation.

[mat1583]

As for marijuana, it's illegal, and therefore sinful in our country. Whether it would be possible to use it in moderation in such a way as to not be sinning seems to be rather a moot point, since the illegality of it makes the defiance and rebellion of possessing and using it in any quantity sinful in reality.

It's not a moot point since there could be Christians on this forum living in states where it's completely legal to posses and smoke marijuana for medicinal purposes.

Besides, I never condoned the use of pot in states where it is illegal. I was simply arguing that it's not a good law and it shouldn't be illegal. My points are not 'moot' if you actually consider what my argument is.

This is probably a question for another thread...but what kind of nation would we be living in right now if our Christian forefathers had not rebelled against the British government in the 1700's? I'm not saying all our forefathers were Christian, but surely there were many that did not follow the laws of the land and instead fought for freedom.

-washboard

[Gandalf]

The American Revolution was carried out on the premise that the foreign government of Britain had ceased to be the legitimate governing authority over the American states. Whether they were right or not, it wasn't simply a matter of them thinking it was OK to not obey inconvenient laws. Shortly after the Revolution, Washington and the new United States government used the militia to put down a group of people who were revolting because they didn't want to pay the federal liquor tax. The rule of law has always been considered necessary in our country. The question was the legitimacy of the government, which was viewed as a foreign occupying power rather than a legitimate authority over the people here.

As for drug legality in general, research the problems we were dealing with regarding mass opium, heroin, and cocaine addiction in this country before these substances became controlled and the FDA was created to ensure drug safety. I know it goes counter to some people's libertarian/anarchist sensibilities, but the problems both of debilitating addiction and unsafe drugs were so widespread that it truly was necessary for the government to act. The FDA has approved THC medicinally for the purposes it's shown itself useful for - "medicinal marijuana" is primarily a thin cover for those who just want a legal way to smoke it, since the active ingredient is already available by prescription.

Whether marijuana in particular should've been made illegal may be a valid question, but since it is already illegal, why worry about it? I can see no compelling reason to change the law. The whole issue really does seem a moot point to me.

[Evanescence]

The American Revolution was carried out on the premise that the foreign government of Britain had ceased to be the legitimate governing authority over the American states. Whether they were right or not, it wasn't simply a matter of them thinking it was OK to not obey inconvenient laws. Shortly after the Revolution, Washington and the new United States government used the militia to put down a group of people who were revolting because they didn't want to pay the federal liquor tax. The rule of law has always been considered necessary in our country. The question was the legitimacy of the government, which was viewed as a foreign occupying power rather than a legitimate authority over the people here.

As for drug legality in general, research the problems we were dealing with regarding mass opium, heroin, and cocaine addiction in this country before these substances became controlled and the FDA was created to ensure drug safety. I know it goes counter to some people's libertarian/anarchist sensibilities, but the problems both of debilitating addiction and unsafe drugs were so widespread that it truly was necessary for the government to act. The FDA has approved THC medicinally for the purposes it's shown itself useful for - "medicinal marijuana" is primarily a thin cover for those who just want a legal way to smoke it, since the active ingredient is already available by prescription.

Whether marijuana in particular should've been made illegal may be a valid question, but since it is already illegal, why worry about it? I can see no compelling reason to change the law. The whole issue really does seem a moot point to me.

Good point mat about the American Revolution. They rebelled against the Law of the Land.

While I don't trust our Govt and the FDA, I do think that there's enough evidence to support the fact that Pot isn't the best for folks unless VERY carefully regulated. But I really don't know a LOT about it.

High Times magazine would tell you the opposite...

Didn't Canada legazlize it? What about Christians in other countries, where its legal?

[Evanescence]

The American Revolution was carried out on the premise that the foreign government of Britain had ceased to be the legitimate governing authority over the American states. Whether they were right or not, it wasn't simply a matter of them thinking it was OK to not obey inconvenient laws. Shortly after the Revolution, Washington and the new United States government used the militia to put down a group of people who were revolting because they didn't want to pay the federal liquor tax. The rule of law has always been considered necessary in our country. The question was the legitimacy of the government, which was viewed as a foreign occupying power rather than a legitimate authority over the people here.


Sounds like our Govt today...:D

[Gandalf]

High Times magazine would tell you the opposite...
A pothead magazine favoring legalized recreational drugs? Shocking.
Didn't Canada legazlize it? What about Christians in other countries, where its legal?
In places where it's legal, the question comes back to moderation and motivation. Since it's already available in safer and more effective pharmaceutical forms for medicinal purposes, that's off the list. For recreational purposes, perhaps it's conceptually possible to use it in small enough quantities that you're sober and your state of mind isn't altered, you aren't addicted remain in control rather than being controlled by it, and it doesn't cause psychosis or other mental issues.

But if you're not taking enough to get "high," why are you bothering to smoke any at all? The substance itself isn't inherently evil, but I can't think of a benefit to recreational drug use, and smoking it is not the ideal delivery system for medicinal use. Can you?

[mat1583]

The American Revolution was carried out on the premise that the foreign government of Britain had ceased to be the legitimate governing authority over the American states. Whether they were right or not, it wasn't simply a matter of them thinking it was OK to not obey inconvenient laws. Shortly after the Revolution, Washington and the new United States government used the militia to put down a group of people who were revolting because they didn't want to pay the federal liquor tax. The rule of law has always been considered necessary in our country. The question was the legitimacy of the government, which was viewed as a foreign occupying power rather than a legitimate authority over the people here.

The point is that colonists purposefully disobeyed laws placed upon them because they thought that they were wrongfully enacted in the first place. If you were a Christian living during that time, would you have followed all the laws that the British government had placed on the colonies?


As for drug legality in general, research the problems we were dealing with regarding mass opium, heroin, and cocaine addiction in this country before these substances became controlled and the FDA was created to ensure drug safety. I know it goes counter to some people's libertarian/anarchist sensibilities, but the problems both of debilitating addiction and unsafe drugs were so widespread that it truly was necessary for the government to act.

Do you honestly believe I haven't done my research on this topic? It was FDA and anti-drug legislation that, in part, caused drugs such as cocaine to become more addictive and more dangerous. Before the legislation, cocaine (in the form of cocaine hydrochloride) was used safely in products such as Coke to relieve common ailments. It could be obtained without prescription. Once the FDA stepped in and drug-legislation stepped up, people started producing a stronger and more addictive forms of cocaine. They wanted to get the most out of the cocaine since it was already illegal. Not only that, but other drugs such as amphetamines started becoming widely available and popular since the supply of cocaine was cut down.

If you make something that's popular among all social classes illegal, people are going to find a way to produce it illegally and oftentimes unsafely. Violent crimes increase because the people who could once acquire it legally now feel they must resort to illegal and sometimes violent means of acquiring it. The black market takes over the production which means you have created cartels run by drug lords and crime Mobs.

Since anti-drug legislation was enacted, drug use has risen ( http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy. gov/publications/factsht/druguse/ - Table 1, bottom of the chart shows drug use among all ages) and the government has wasted billions of tax payers dollars ($12.5 billion a year) to combat another 'war' that cannot be won the way they are fighting it.


Whether marijuana in particular should've been made illegal may be a valid question, but since it is already illegal, why worry about it? I can see no compelling reason to change the law. The whole issue really does seem a moot point to me.

Why? Because our government commonly enacts legislation that is based on lies, half-truths, and only creates more problems than it fixes. Illegal marijuana is just one example. If a bad law exists and creates more problems, then we should question why it is even on the books - especially when taxpayers are paying to have it enforced. Personally, I do not want the government stealing my money to throw a non-violent, lazy pothead in jail. Over 20% of our state's (Alabama) prison population are non-violent drug offenders booked on possession or trafficking.

-washboard

[mat1583]

But if you're not taking enough to get "high," why are you bothering to smoke any at all? The substance itself isn't inherently evil, but I can't think of a benefit to recreational drug use, and smoking it is not the ideal delivery system for medicinal use. Can you?
There's a difference between getting high and getting a buzz, which is analogous to the difference between having a slight buzz or being drunk. I do not believe having a slight buzz from caffeine, alcohol, etc...is sinful. I do believe getting high, stoned, or drunk is sinful. My college buddy I talked about earlier enjoyed lighting up because of the buzz, but didn't get high (except for when he first started smoking).

I think the reason for smoking is that it's the easiest and most simple delivery method since it's illegal. Anyone could grow a plant in their garden and roll a joint, but who has the means to isolate the chemical THC and get it into pill form? Of course, you can look at cigarettes and ask pretty much the same thing. Why do people smoke cigarettes if you can obtain nicotine in other forms that are less deadly? I know many ex-smokers that wonder the same thing...why the heck destroy your life like that for so little enjoyment?

-washhboard

[Gandalf]

The point is that colonists purposefully disobeyed laws placed upon them because they thought that they were wrongfully enacted in the first place. If you were a Christian living during that time, would you have followed all the laws that the British government had placed on the colonies?
The issue wasn't just that they thought the laws were incorrect, but that they determined that they were the laws of a foreign power that did not have the authority to make laws here at all. It was, from that perspective, a war against an occupying power, not disobedience towards a legitimate government. I haven't seen anyone even try to make a case for the United States government not being the legitimate authority here.
There's a difference between getting high and getting a buzz, which is analogous to the difference between having a slight buzz or being drunk.
True.

[mat1583]

The issue wasn't just that they thought the laws were incorrect, but that they determined that they were the laws of a foreign power that did not have the authority to make laws here at all. It was, from that perspective, a war against an occupying power, not disobedience towards a legitimate government. I haven't seen anyone even try to make a case for the United States government not being the legitimate authority here.

And don't expect me to :) I'm not an anarchist.

-washboard

[DareDevil]

There's a difference between getting high and getting a buzz, which is analogous to the difference between having a slight buzz or being drunk. I do not believe having a slight buzz from caffeine, alcohol, etc...is sinful. I do believe getting high, stoned, or drunk is sinful. My college buddy I talked about earlier enjoyed lighting up because of the buzz, but didn't get high (except for when he first started smoking).

(...)


Many people have different ideas of what "being high" or "drunk" means. Personally, when I hear the term "drunk" in discussions like this then I get the mental image of somebody who is totally wasted and probably already lying in a corner. Still, is it already sinful when people drink to a degree that goes beyond a mild buzz but without reaching the state of being utterly drunk?

Personally, I draw the line when ones alcohol consumption reaches a self destructive level either because of regular (ab-)use or because one has reached a point where one has completely lost control about oneself. The reason for that is that I believe that alcohol consumption is no excuse for sinful behaviour. We all know what alcohol does with us after all.

[Evanescence]

Yeah, by what reference point do we determine what "drunk" or high" is? Who decides when we're drunk or buzzed, feeling good or stoned?

Where's the reference point?

Its just like the sex before marriage thing. Define sex....who's definition do we go by? Where's the reference point?

Its really a careful line that a spirit filled person will walk, and even then, some will object, dependent on the level of their liberal or conservative views.

[Pouye]

Anyone with common sense can see that the supposed "War on Drugs" in the USA is a complete failure, and has only caused the USA to incarcerate a higher percentage of its citizens than almost any other country in the world.

So what are the options?

Here are some:

0. The "War on Drugs" is a necessary evil. Live with it.

1. Legalize all drugs (illicit or not). With this process, the government would then regulate the production, sales and laws for consumption. With this the government would need to take responsibility for ensuring that the distribution of accurate and up-to-date information about the risks factors of each class of drugs, update medical insurance laws, etc. Basically the USA would follow in Holland's footsteps.

2. Simply repeal all of the laws banning illegal drugs, but do not formally legalize currently illicit/illegal drugs. Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't mean it has to be formally "legalized" by the government. This would simply mean that the government would no longer respond to the production, importation, sales, possession etc. of drugs. Law enforcement could still impose penalties for drug-related crimes, and heavier fines/penalties for crimes committed while under the influence of substances could still be enacted. The government would also relinquish any control to the processes involving the regulation, production, sales, distribution, importation, etc. of currently illicit/illegal drugs. Drug testing for employment and even communities could be kept in tact.

3. Repeal the laws on drugs considered less dangerous (such as marijuana). Importation of "soft drugs" or base products to manufacture these drugs may or may not be regulated. Tough laws would remain in place for drugs considered more dangerous, and importation would remain illegal for "hard" drugs. This would basically be an "easing up" on the "War on Drugs", but a continuation of the "war".

4. Use all of the current money spent on the "War on Drugs" to fight crime and deal with the current problems which drugs are creating in the society through tax breaks and incentives for private organizations who could help rehabilitate addicts who request this assistance and to educate people on the truths about recreational drug use and abuse.

5. ?

6. ?

Other thoughts?

Rock

[Pouye]

No takers? The silence is deafening!

Rock

[DareDevil]

What did you expect? That somebody comes up with a logical, coherent and realistic plan to solve the drug problem? ;)

Seriously, it is hard to come up with a plan that both respects people's freedom of choice and society's understandable wish to function properly. One does only have to think of China and its opium problem in the 18th century to understand that it WILL affect everybody when a high percentage of a country's population is on heavy drugs. Still, there is also the aspect of freedom of choice that should also count for something. I mean, personally I have never done any illegal drugs and I don't think that this will ever change even if they were legal, but I still wonder whether it is necessary to criminalise drug addicts the way it is done in most western countries right now.

[Evanescence]

How about stopping the CIA and FBI from participating in the trafficing? :cool:

[mat1583]

1. Legalize all drugs (illicit or not). With this process, the government would then regulate the production, sales and laws for consumption. With this the government would need to take responsibility for ensuring that the distribution of accurate and up-to-date information about the risks factors of each class of drugs, update medical insurance laws, etc. Basically the USA would follow in Holland's footsteps.

2. Simply repeal all of the laws banning illegal drugs, but do not formally legalize currently illicit/illegal drugs. Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't mean it has to be formally "legalized" by the government. This would simply mean that the government would no longer respond to the production, importation, sales, possession etc. of drugs. Law enforcement could still impose penalties for drug-related crimes, and heavier fines/penalties for crimes committed while under the influence of substances could still be enacted. The government would also relinquish any control to the processes involving the regulation, production, sales, distribution, importation, etc. of currently illicit/illegal drugs. Drug testing for employment and even communities could be kept in tact.



I would vote for a combination of the two above. Legalize all drugs with some minor regulation, and eventually move toward #2. The most likely to happen in this country, however, is the legalization of marijuana or "soft" drugs.

-washboard

[mat1583]

Seriously, it is hard to come up with a plan that both respects people's freedom of choice and society's understandable wish to function properly.

It's only hard to come up with something if you believe that our country should have control over what substances its citizens put into their own bodies to harm their own lives. I believe that if a person is not infringing upon another's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness, then they should be free to consumer whatever substance they so choose. It's only when they infringe on those "unalienable rights" that they should face STRICT penalties.

When the government begins to control/ignore individual citizen's rights for the good of society, where is the line drawn? Clearly they haven't stopped at pot smoking, cigarette smoking in private establishments, or even people that enjoy trans fatty acids in their food (NY). They haven't stopped at listening in on your phone conversations if they so choose (illegal wiretapping, Patriot Act). They haven't stopped at going to war without an official declaration of war through Congress. When will America step up and say enough is enough before it's too late to do so?

I know that making marijuana and other drugs legal may seem trivial to some, but to those who value liberty in a society in which we are quickly losing it...it would be a huge step towards the freedoms our nation used to enjoy. I just hope the rest of the nation wakes up to see the reality of it all before we've lost the ability to change it.

-washboard

[DareDevil]

Problem is that the events that lead to the Opium Wars have already taught us what it means when the consumption of heavy drugs gets out of control. I can understand and respect it when a country tries to avoid to make similar experiences.

[Pouye]

It's only hard to come up with something if you believe that our country should have control over what substances its citizens put into their own bodies to harm their own lives. I believe that if a person is not infringing upon another's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness, then they should be free to consumer whatever substance they so choose. It's only when they infringe on those "unalienable rights" that they should face STRICT penalties.


I agree in part, but I also know that the choices people make do not always affect society immediately. There is often long term negative impacts that cannot be 'strictly' punished because they cannot be nailed down. For instance, say a woman wants to use heavy drugs, but she also gets pregnant. Suddenly other factors come into play. You end up with crack babies who's rights to a healthy life have been utterly infringed upon. Do you punish the woman for doing crack while pregnant? Society then may be forced to carry the burden of dealing with her crack baby, since she will most likely refuse to take care of the baby herself with all of the baby's special needs and high medical costs.

It is a known fact that neglect and child abuse is a very difficult thing to define and to punish. It is also a known fact that parents who drink heavily and/or use drugs often neglect and/or abuse their own children. Child abuse and neglect rates skyrocket in families that use drugs and drink heavily. In the long run, this really hurts everyone in a society, and has long-lasting ramifications in society.

People who use drugs and drink heavily also have, on average, much shorter life spans and many more health problems. It is not illegal to be unhealthy, but it sure costs everyone in society a lot of money. Not only that, but when you get a mass of people who have lowered immune systems and poor health, diseases are spread more quickly to the healthy, as well. This infringes in the quality of life of everyone else -- even those who are not using drugs and drinking heavily.

So in essence, history has shown that the individual choices in society can drastically affect society as a whole, even if the individual's negative choices are not immediately or tangibly obvious. For instance, drinking and drug use decreases work production because of health issues (like chronic fatigue, impaired motor skills, hangovers, etc.) and carelessness (those on drugs are generally not as careful and do stupid things at work -- this is a fact).

I know this first hand because the company I worked for in the USA was a secular company that had a high turn-over rate. The drinkers and drug users made many more mistakes and missed work frequently. They were also more inclined to steal, cut corners, neglect their tools, and lie. This was just a fact that was as plain as the nose on my face. I hired several guys, but it was quickly obvious if they were drinkers and/or drug users because of the shenanigans they would do. I fired many a dope-smoking or drinking worker because of poor work performance and missed days. The best worker I ever hired was a Christian who had strong moral principles and was as clean as a whistle. He soon rose to the top of the company and was making over $100,000 bucks a year. He could easily do the work of three pot heads!

When you simply allow people to destroy their own lives, their "own lives" aren't JUST their own lives. Women get pregnant and have children. When a mom is destroying her life through substance abuse, she is simultaneously destroying her children's lives, too -- sometimes immediately if there is a baby in her womb. If she is married, she is most likely destroying her marriage, as well. She is destroying her friendships, working relationships, etc. Her choices have a vast ripple affect into the quality of life of everyone around her. She is like a cancer cell that affects the healthy cells around her negatively. If she isn't doing something blatantly illegal, there isn't any way to force change. She could possibly benefit from forced rehabilitation, but if she isn't breaking the law, it is highly likely that she will not do this on her own initiative, which is being constantly clouded and impaired. It is CLEAR that she is hurting others around her -- so isn't that infringing on the rights of others (especially her children who have no choice but to be with her?)

Personally, I like the idea of forced rehabilitation. I think if someone is going to hurt others in society because of their own stupid choices, that they should be forced to rehabilitate with no questions asked. Rehab centers should not look at all like prisons, but be beautiful places where people could get real (professional/medical) help and practical training and skills for their lives. It should also cost them something (money/time). Rehab centers should have work programs that produce consumable products and those who are being rehabilitated should be taught the skills necessary to work and be productive; along with time management skills and other basic skills that can help people to live successful lives in society. Done right, with real care and concerned people who are willing to mentor people back to restoration, it could work very well.

Rock

ps. I just thought of something. What if people in a society were empowered by law to place people into rehabilitation? What I'm saying is if enough people are negatively effected by an individual's substance abuses (say a spouse, an employer, older children, friends, etc.), they could collect their signatures and give this to a court of law to add teeth to their decision. Then the law could come and take the person away to be rehabilitated after a testing phase to make sure they are actually abusing substances (and not just being conspired against). Just a thought.

[Pouye]

Problem is that the events that lead to the Opium Wars have already taught us what it means when the consumption of heavy drugs gets out of control. I can understand and respect it when a country tries to avoid to make similar experiences.

I agree. There is a point where the choice of enough individuals can erode and destroy the quality of life of the entire society. Everyone's rights get infringed upon when society goes down the tubes.

Should societies have the right to implode and take everyone else down with the ship?

Rock

[mat1583]

I agree. There is a point where the choice of enough individuals can erode and destroy the quality of life of the entire society. Everyone's rights get infringed upon when society goes down the tubes.

Should societies have the right to implode and take everyone else down with the ship?

Rock

This is almost word for word what women and other temperance movement advocates said in the early 1900's about alcohol. It causes domestic violence, sucks the money from already poor families to cause financial troubles for the families and the rest of society, etc etc. And as we saw with the prohibition of alcohol, prohibition created more problems in society than it fixed! Why can you not understand that one point?

Before the drug war, this nation was not spinning uncontrollably into the depths of despair and destruction. Can you please show me any society that has self destructed or "imploded" as you say because they wasted their life away on drugs or alcohol? A first world, industrialized nation such as the US is not going to "implode" because of drugs...which is actually evidenced by the increasing amount of drug users today. It seems that you believe we should prohibit drugs because the more people that use it, the closer we get to imploding...that is simply not true. Just look at our nation right now for proof.

I will address your longer post a little later when I have the time to sift through it...

DareDevil: What were these events?

-washboard

[Gandalf]

Chinese society was on the verge of just such a collapse due to widespread (possibly majority) opium addiction among parts of their population ... they fought actual wars on drugs in the 19th century, making it a capital offense (execution by public strangulation) to sell, possess, or purchase opium. They fought and lost two wars against Britain because the British were smuggling opium from India to China. The Chinese tried to enforce their laws by boarding ships, etc. and Britain went to war with them as a result, desiring the silver from the opium trade. Britain won both wars and ended up with Hong Kong, and the Chinese were forced to tolerate the British opium trade. This was the beginning of the end for the Qing dynasty.

[middletree]

No takers? The silence is deafening!

Rock

I didn't respond because at the beginning of your post, you stated that anyone who chooses my choice (0) has no common sense.

[Pouye]

I didn't respond because at the beginning of your post, you stated that anyone who chooses my choice (0) has no common sense.

I'm sorry for this. The "War on Drugs" is based on reason, but it is failing. It has not decreased drug use, nor has it helped society as much as it appears to be harming society. The billions spent are not billions spent well, in my opinion. This is a valid option (to continue as is), but all the facts point to utter failure and futility. When something isn't working, doing it longer doesn't help (again, my opinion.

I used to believe that the "War on Drugs" was just a necessary evil. However, when I talked to real police officers and law enforcement agencies about it (my uncle is a police officer who also does homicide investigations), and my old youth pastor is also a police officer. They helped me to see why the "War on Drugs" is really not working at all. Incarcerating people for possession of drugs does absolutely nothing. They can't stay in there (too costly for the state), and just putting them in and letting them out again does nothing but make it harder for them to find a job the longer their record gets. It does absolutely nothing to stop drug use, abuse, sales, etc. This is called spinning your wheels -- and we have to find a better way to deal with the issue.

Rock

[Pouye]

Before the drug war, this nation was not spinning uncontrollably into the depths of despair and destruction. Can you please show me any society that has self destructed or "imploded" as you say because they wasted their life away on drugs or alcohol? A first world, industrialized nation such as the US is not going to "implode" because of drugs...which is actually evidenced by the increasing amount of drug users today. It seems that you believe we should prohibit drugs because the more people that use it, the closer we get to imploding...that is simply not true. Just look at our nation right now for proof.
-washboard

Actually, there are segments of our nation that are sliding, especially since crystal meth has been on the rise. But as Gandalf pointed out, a nation can certainly become so involved in substance abuse that it is weakened and eroded. The USA, as a society, is not as stable as it was several decades ago. Institutions like marriage are in jeopardy, and youth violence and rebellion is on the rise. My uncle was telling me the difference between crime today and before, as well. He said that now, even young kids (boys and girls) are using crystal meth at 12 and 13. Criminals are very hard to apprehend or deal with when they are on such drugs. They don't even respond to mace sometimes, and are extremely strong. The increase in such activity is scary, and it certainly erodes the quality of life of the entire society.

I'm not talking about prohibition. We are already doing that. I'm talking about other ways that our societies can deal with the problem either privately, through government action, or both.

Rock

[middletree]

The problem with this question is that its very premise is flawed. The question isn't "What should the government do about drugs?," because it's a spiritual issue. Govt cannot solve spiritual problems. Drug use is a symptom of a problem; it's not THE problem. The real problem is a nation full of people who have turned their back on Jesus.

[mat1583]

Chinese society was on the verge of just such a collapse due to widespread (possibly majority) opium addiction among parts of their population ... they fought actual wars on drugs in the 19th century, making it a capital offense (execution by public strangulation) to sell, possess, or purchase opium. They fought and lost two wars against Britain because the British were smuggling opium from India to China. The Chinese tried to enforce their laws by boarding ships, etc. and Britain went to war with them as a result, desiring the silver from the opium trade. Britain won both wars and ended up with Hong Kong, and the Chinese were forced to tolerate the British opium trade. This was the beginning of the end for the Qing dynasty.

Could you provide a reliable reference that shows statistically or anything near statistically why opium was the cause of the near collapse? Everything I have read says that while opium use was prevalent in the Chinese society at that time, there is no reliable data that indicates opium as a primary cause of the near collapse. Almost everything I've read says that Britain had nearly as much widespread opium use, yet they didn't collapse or even come close to it.

-washboard

[mat1583]

Actually, there are segments of our nation that are sliding, especially since crystal meth has been on the rise.

I believe that part of the problem is that instead of getting meth addicts help, we are continually throwing them in jail, making it that much harder for them to actually get help. Jail is not a rehabilitation center, especially not for drug abusers.


The increase in such activity is scary, and it certainly erodes the quality of life of the entire society.

Please tell me how it erodes the quality of life for the entire society. I can see how it decreases the standard of living for the meth addicts, and possibly the quality of life for a small town in which all its inhabitants are drug users...but even the quality of life in Dekalb County, AL known as the meth capital of the south is not considered to be at a low level.


I'm not talking about prohibition. We are already doing that. I'm talking about other ways that our societies can deal with the problem either privately, through government action, or both.

Rock

I'm glad we are on the same note in respects to how it should be handled :)

-washboard

[Pouye]

I believe that part of the problem is that instead of getting meth addicts help, we are continually throwing them in jail, making it that much harder for them to actually get help. Jail is not a rehabilitation center, especially not for drug abusers.


Couldn't agree more.


Please tell me how it erodes the quality of life for the entire society. I can see how it decreases the standard of living for the meth addicts, and possibly the quality of life for a small town in which all its inhabitants are drug users...but even the quality of life in Dekalb County, AL known as the meth capital of the south is not considered to be at a low level.


Would you want to live in a place called the "meth capital"? I wouldn't. It might be subtle, but it does affect the quality of life when pockets of society are "hurting". The day to day affect might be unnoticeable to some families, but to those affected, it is real -- and they might consider moving to another location. In this way you get pockets of concentrated crime areas.



I'm glad we are on the same note in respects to how it should be handled :)

-washboard

As I've said before, I'm sort of "Libertarian Light". At times I see a reason for society to step in and make some rules (law). At other times, I see how sometimes laws that worked during one era might need to be amended for another era. I believe government should be limited in many aspects, and that there are better ways to deal with many of the problems we face rather than just doing more of the same or giving more power to the government. Just about one of the worst ways to try to fix a problem is throw government money at it... ;)

Rock

[markie mark]

smokin' pot is another attempt to fill the God-shaped hole that everyone has; like cigarettes, drinking lots of booze, masturbation etc. The devil loves it when you're isolated.

God would rather be your 'go to' in life. I find that it's best for me to retreat to Him when I'm feeling the need to do any of these things.

[prayercloth sis]

Haven[t read the whole thread....

So if i repeat someone...my apologies...

The scripture states that we are to be sober...& viligant...(watchful)...

and that God has not given us the spirit of fear but that of power, love and a sound mind...

When one smokes marijuana...or allows marijuana into their system...it changes their perception...on reality ...makes them not care as much...or overly anxious...

Some get relaxed, sleepy, laid back, or some are the opposite..paranoid, & nervous...etc....

They are no longer sober and of a sound mind...or viligent...

Many become paranoid....(spirit of fear).....also marijuana causes some to eat for no reason....(spirit of gluttony), and makes some sleepy...(spirit of slothfulness).....

these are just a few of the evil spirits that oppress or possess one who smokes/uses marijuana...

If you specific...scriptures for the above...just let me know...

Rhonie

[mat1583]

Haven[t read the whole thread....

So if i repeat someone...my apologies...

The scripture states that we are to be sober...& viligant...(watchful)...

and that God has not given us the spirit of fear but that of power, love and a sound mind...

When one smokes marijuana...or allows marijuana into their system...it changes their perception...on reality ...makes them not care as much...or overly anxious...

Some get relaxed, sleepy, laid back, or some are the opposite..paranoid, & nervous...etc....

They are no longer sober and of a sound mind...or viligent...

Many become paranoid....(spirit of fear).....also marijuana causes some to eat for no reason....(spirit of gluttony), and makes some sleepy...(spirit of slothfulness).....

these are just a few of the evil spirits that oppress or possess one who smokes/uses marijuana...

If you specific...scriptures for the above...just let me know...

Rhonie

Alcohol alters perception. It eases inhibitions and makes it easier to give into temptations of the flesh. It causes some to become angry, violent, and abusive. It causes loss of motor control, speech, and in high quantities complete loss of consciousness. It causes some to fall asleep (which is sometimes a preferred effect.)

But when consumed responsibly and in moderation nearly all these things can be avoided. According to some tokers I know, it's possible to smoke in 'moderation' so that you don't get completely stoned. I think we all agree that smoking pot to get stoned is certainly sinful...but just like alcohol, it can be consumed responsibly and in moderation.

-washboard

[DareDevil]

Alcohol alters perception. It eases inhibitions and makes it easier to give into temptations of the flesh. It causes some to become angry, violent, and abusive. It causes loss of motor control, speech, and in high quantities complete loss of consciousness. It causes some to fall asleep (which is sometimes a preferred effect.)

(...)


I've been really drunk only once since I found to God. I don't want to dodge my own responsibility for this since I drank the drinks voluntarily, but it was still kind of an accident since the drinks that were served there were obviously much stronger than what I usually drink, if I drink at all. Anyway, personally I'm not sure what to think of this list because it doesn't really reflect what I felt. *My* personal experience was actually much worse since I felt like I was trapped in myself. I felt like I could still think rationally, but my mind had no real connection to the outside world anymore and THAT was probably the worst feeling I've ever experienced. This personal experience is also why I fail to understand how people can experience this state as something agreeable. Sure, I'm still not beyond a drink or a beer and the relaxing effect that comes with it, but I genuinly fail to understand the so called fun that is supposed to come together with being utterly drunk.

Another sided effect of this lack of understanding is my utter failure to understand the fun that is supposed to come with illegal drugs. I've never done them, but I suppose the experience is both similar and also much stronger. Seriously, where is the fun in loosing control like THAT??? I mean, even if we imagine that there are weed smokers who can consume weed in moderation then there is still the fact that most weed smokers are not even trying to do so. Most simply want to get high and that as fast as possible.



As a side note:
That's why I prefer music and especially concerts over alcohol and any illegal drug. A great concert simply gives me such an unbelievable, natural high that simply makes me happy. :)

[in hiding]

Alcohol alters perception. It eases inhibitions and makes it easier to give into temptations of the flesh. It causes some to become angry, violent, and abusive. It causes loss of motor control, speech, and in high quantities complete loss of consciousness. It causes some to fall asleep (which is sometimes a preferred effect.)

But when consumed responsibly and in moderation nearly all these things can be avoided. According to some tokers I know, it's possible to smoke in 'moderation' so that you don't get completely stoned. I think we all agree that smoking pot to get stoned is certainly sinful...but just like alcohol, it can be consumed responsibly and in moderation.

-washboard

Good post. I was thinking it's funny how no one brings up caffeine when they talk about drugs altering personality (google caffeines effect on health....you'll be surprised at what it can cause). Like most things moderation is the key (I'm not addressing the legal aspect of marijuana b/c since it's illegal it shouldn't be an issue) and sometimes use in moderation can sometimes even be beneficial.

[Gandalf]

Good post. I was thinking it's funny how no one brings up caffeine when they talk about drugs altering personality (google caffeines effect on health....you'll be surprised at what it can cause). Like most things moderation is the key (I'm not addressing the legal aspect of marijuana b/c since it's illegal it shouldn't be an issue) and sometimes use in moderation can sometimes even be beneficial.
For example, 7 double-espressos can cause a life-threatening (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/dietfitness.html?in_artic le_id=475021) overdose.

[prayercloth sis]

Alcohol alters perception. It eases inhibitions and makes it easier to give into temptations of the flesh. It causes some to become angry, violent, and abusive. It causes loss of motor control, speech, and in high quantities complete loss of consciousness. It causes some to fall asleep (which is sometimes a preferred effect.)

But when consumed responsibly and in moderation nearly all these things can be avoided. According to some tokers I know, it's possible to smoke in 'moderation' so that you don't get completely stoned. I think we all agree that smoking pot to get stoned is certainly sinful...but just like alcohol, it can be consumed responsibly and in moderation.

-washboard



My personal conviction.... smoking is sin...smoke harms the lungs...period....whether used
moderately or not...

Marijuana nor tobacco have any healthy affect on the body.

I respectfully agree to disagree with you on this subject.


Wine on the other hand when used with wisdom can help the body.....there are several scriptures that teach & support this...

God Bless
Rhonie

[Pouye]

My personal conviction.... smoking is sin...smoke harms the lungs...period....whether used
moderately or not...

Marijuana nor tobacco have any healthy affect on the body.

I respectfully agree to disagree with you on this subject.


Wine on the other hand when used with wisdom can help the body.....there are several scriptures that teach & support this...

God Bless
Rhonie

Looking at it from purely a health standpoint, you have a point there, sis!

Rock

[mat1583]

My personal conviction.... smoking is sin...smoke harms the lungs...period....whether used
moderately or not...

Marijuana nor tobacco have any healthy affect on the body.

100's of documents from contemporary research would disagree. Marijuana has been used to treat glaucoma, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, appetite loss in cancer and AIDS patients. Even the government can't disprove this. Now in regards to an already healthy person...I think I agree with you. Smoking pot would have no immediate benefits except for maybe easing stress, but we should depend on the Holy Spirit for that. :)


I respectfully agree to disagree with you on this subject.


Wine on the other hand when used with wisdom can help the body.....there are several scriptures that teach & support this...

God Bless
Rhonie

Indeed!

-washboard

[DareDevil]

If there is a medically valid aplication for an otherwise illegal drug that outweighs the negative aspects then it should be used accordingly. Still, this raises an interesting question. How willing are western socities - I am not just talking about the USA here - to acknowledge the (possible?) existances of such cases? Seriously, those who fight illegal drugs are sometimes just as full of themselves as certain people who argue in favour of legalisation, or at least that is the expression I get when listening to certain politicans.

[Materra]

So God was unable to make our brains works as he pleased?

Was Einstein godly? Did Jesus smoke weed?
The state of the modern church that can't endure sound doctrine is irrelevant too.
Is what he thinks (you say he is an intellectual) better than the will of God to abstain from all forms of evil? Then let him profess to be wise and become a fool, after he has been warned. Where is the Spirit and his conscience? Is he really born again?

You teach you kids the word of God, and how you live and the fruit of Jesus in your life verifies its truth.

I totally agree with this statement. We are supposed to live our lives like JESUS did & JESUS did NOT smoke weed. So no, I don't believe that smoking marijuana is good.

[Materra]

I'm sorry that I kind of invited myself into this discussion, I am very sensitive to this particular subject. I was once what you would call a "pothead," and I agree with almost every post that I've read regarding the effects that marijuana can have on a person. It's true that most ex-potheads do seem to kind of dwell on the times when they were using it. I do it myself without even realizing it! But I don't necessarily believe that doing that makes you any less of a christian or even a bad person. Although, I don't think that those who are now saved should still be doing it or even want to do it. Serving the LORD is a great privilege and you shouldn't need any help in increasing that feeling. I LOVE being saved & telling others how great it is! I don't really care if they think I'm crazy! I'm crazy for JESUS!

[Materra]

So God was unable to make our brains works as he pleased?

Was Einstein godly? Did Jesus smoke weed?
The state of the modern church that can't endure sound doctrine is irrelevant too.
Is what he thinks (you say he is an intellectual) better than the will of God to abstain from all forms of evil? Then let him profess to be wise and become a fool, after he has been warned. Where is the Spirit and his conscience? Is he really born again?

You teach you kids the word of God, and how you live and the fruit of Jesus in your life verifies its truth.

I agree with this post. I don't know if Einstein was godly, but I DO know that JESUS is who we need to be focusing on here. In the Bible it tells us that we (as children of the MOST HIGH GOD) are supposed to live our lives the way that JESUS did & drugs was not part of His teaching. So you ask - Did JESUS smoke weed? NO HE DID NOT! So no, I don't believe that it is okay.

[in hiding]

For example, 7 double-espressos can cause a life-threatening (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/dietfitness.html?in_artic le_id=475021) overdose.

exactly, additionally if you look at the ncaa they actually have caffeine listed on the banned substance list if you test above a certain amount.