Freemasonry and Secret Societies- Christian?

[Evanescence]

My father-inlaw has been asked to join the Freemasons. He thinks it is no big deal...just a fraternity of fine men etc etc.

I am not so sure...

Should a Christian dabble with secret societies? Can we say that a man thats part of one of these groups is a true Christian?

Again, I am not so sure...

[blacksheep]

From my experience with people that I know to be freemasons, I would say it’s not a good idea. The basic idea is that the deeper you go the more you know. Now, of course, there are all kinds of speculations about what the higher levels believe and teach. Some say that once you reach the 33rd level that you have to renounce Jesus. I’m not sure if that’s the case, but from the people I know, they most certainly believe some strange things about God and Jesus. The “club” is also used very extensively in making business contacts. The Army has even put a ban on showing your hands (freemasons often wear rings to identify themselves as such) in your official Department of the Army photo which is used when considering some promotions. As far as secret organizations in general, I think the Bible is relatively clear that our deeds should be done in the light, though I think the principal being taught is that if you wouldn’t do it in the light, then don’t do it. I don't think that just because you belong to a group like this that you are not a Christian. Like I said, if you don't advance beyond the lower levels, you will probably never notice anything strange or wrong.

[middletree]

I'll bet Harry Potter is a mason ;)

[kiwimobro]

I'll bet Harry Potter is a mason ;)

hehehehe


on a more serious note ...
I was covering the funeral service of a prominent community figure once. The Bishop of a large denomination was taking the service. I walked out after here clearly stated the brotherhood of the masons was more important than relationship with Jesus. If I hadn't been there as a representative of a newspaper I would have voiced my disgust.

[ausgirl]

Uhm, don't have time to post thouroughly, but masonary is not good - while they claim to be christian, when you get up in the ranks, you find out the truth - lots of satantic links.

[kiwisongbird]

Talk with families of masons who pretty early on discover that the masons are more important that them in the dad's eyes... I will freely admit I am a bruised and battered daughter of a mason... any reading I've done about it from a Christian and non-Christian angle also shows that although it's good from a networking point of view there are many, many things that are not so good...

In the higher levels some pretty weird stuff happens - and even when they get 'enrolled' or whatever they call it... .they are blindfolded, with a noose around their neck and go through a symbolic death and swear themselves to secrecy under pain of torture or death and also speak of spiritual blindness too.... all this right at the beginning

If you speak a spiritual blindness over yourself right at the beginning of something is it little wonder that you don't manage to see stuff when it does comes up...

oops sorry a rant...

the Harry Potter comment was funny though... but no, he probably isn't, his magik is more open that than of the masons... :)

[Evanescence]

There's a lot of darkness with Freemasons and secret societies...

The TRUE ROOTS of Freemasonry is one of the darkest secrets in the history of man....no one truly knows when and where they came from. But Egypt seems to be one place that most agree...they have a lot of Pagan and Egyptian symbology and rituals and ways of thinking.

It seems their whole mentakity is to create a Utopia....free of religion and laws. Freedom without boundaries and restrictions.....and enlightenment through science and spiritualism...the Occult.

Freemasonry is the grandaddy of all secret societies...and most borrow or formulate themseleves after Freemasonry. It IS the standard.

Good stuff, keep it coming guys....:cool:

[Gapeach3DFan]

I know someone that has joined the masons. They convince them that the reason they are a secret society is that they don't believe you should advertise it when you do good deeds. You should do them anonymously. You shouldn't seek recognition for it. This person thinks it's cool because of the connections. He also likes the fact that they are studying the Bible. That has convinced some of my family members that it might not be as bad as they had thought. I keep thinking of the fact that Satan believes in Jesus. But, he doesn't care. Satan doesn't deny Jesus' existence. Reading the Bible won't worry him, either. In fact, he'd probably be glad. That way, you know more about the enemy. Maybe I've read The Screwtape Letters one too many times. But, I still don't agree with what they do.

[middletree]

The Masons were behind the 9/11 attacks ;)

[Andi]

Now you're just looking for trouble! ;)

[HotWireD]

The Masons were behind the 9/11 attacks ;)

Now you're just looking for trouble! ;)

I was in the process of posting a 'little chuckle' when my web browser went down on me...
Those pesky masons are everywhere. :cool:

http://www.nabble.com/images/smiley/anim_handshake.gif

[clemsontigers23]

I've read numerous articles proving how the freemasons are satanic...the most interesting thing is 33rd degree freemasons refer to the serpent as "the holy spirit" and see it as a symbol of the creation of the Universe.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=509

Interesting read...there are literally hundreds of different articles you can read on it.

The most disturbing thing is Billy Graham is apparently a 33rd degree freemason, but Billy Graham is a fraud anyways.

Interesting Billy Graham quotes:

United Church Observer, July 1, 1966- "While I certainly believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, I do not find anywhere in the New Testament that the particular belief is necessary for personal salvation."

The Star, April 10, 1979- I've never cast the demon out of anyone. I don't have the power, and I'm not sure anyone does."

There is a piece on the site that is inappropriate to put on here, but it basically explains Freemasonry:

http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Misc/Graham3.htm

It might help you decide, but I've read numerous things saying Freemasonry is satanic and they are all consistent, so I guess beware.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

I don't know much about the secret societies and such (and they sound more like a no-girls-allowed-in-our-fort for grownups) but I think I should mention that Third Day once performed in Springfield, MO at the Shrine Mosque. A temple built by the Shriners of North America themselves. In order to become a shriner, you must first be a freemason. This all now calls into question the spiritual condition of the band members and those who aided in purchasing tickets for the concert in the Shrine Mosque, consequently financing the freemasons. That would include the concert goers, namely me... ah crap.

[clemsontigers23]

I don't know much about the secret societies and such (and they sound more like a no-girls-allowed-in-our-fort for grownups) but I think I should mention that Third Day once performed in Springfield, MO at the Shrine Mosque. A temple built by the Shriners of North America themselves. In order to become a shriner, you must first be a freemason. This all now calls into question the spiritual condition of the band members and those who aided in purchasing tickets for the concert in the Shrine Mosque, consequently financing the freemasons. That would include the concert goers, namely me... ah crap.

I don't think playing a concert, or going to a concert, at the Shrine Mosque means Third Day, or you, is any less Christian. Mainly, the satanic references come into play at the 33rd and highest degree. Interesting enough, Ronald Reagan and George Bush, and reportedly Billy Graham, are 33rd degree freemasons.

[middletree]

How sure are you about Billy Graham being a Mason? This is the first I have heard of it.

[clemsontigers23]

How sure are you about Billy Graham being a Mason? This is the first I have heard of it.

Depends on how credible the sources are...but it wouldn't surprise me. Billy Graham's the same guy who says everyone in the world already has Jesus, whether they know it or not.

[Evanescence]

Depends on how credible the sources are...but it wouldn't surprise me. Billy Graham's the same guy who says everyone in the world already has Jesus, whether they know it or not.

I've seen this too....

He's a 33 degree, but when he was called out he denied it. He said he attended a 33 degree meeting for research purposes. They don't allow such things.

Further, his name showed up on a roster for Freemasons in Louisianna. There are other disturbing quotes made directly by him. But, if you want to scoff ourt of prejudice and bias, you can simply discredit. People do it all the time with politicians.

[mat1583]

Depends on how credible the sources are...but it wouldn't surprise me. Billy Graham's the same guy who says everyone in the world already has Jesus, whether they know it or not.

huh? That's not what I just read from his recent book, "The Journey". Everything in "The Journey" except for that part about just saying the "forgiveness prayer" is seemingly theologically sound.

-washboard

[middletree]

I don't want to scoff at anything. I am just asking for evidence or documentation that BG is a Mason. I have learned, especially since the advent of the Internet, that stories get passed around by well-meaning people and those stories take on a life of their own. I have heard people who were absolutely convinced that:
-Mr Rogers was a war veteran
-Buddy Holly's plane was called "American Pie"
-Rice thrown at weddings will kill birds

and a few hundred other things. People believe them without checking them out. The latter example (rice) has actually caused cities to pass laws against rice throwing. So I'm not believing anything until I see some substantiation.

[mat1583]

I don't want to scoff at anything. I am just asking for evidence or documentation that BG is a Mason. I have learned, especially since the advent of the Internet, that stories get passed around by well-meaning people and those stories take on a life of their own. I have heard people who were absolutely convinced that:
-Mr Rogers was a war veteran
-Buddy Holly's plane was called "American Pie"
-Rice thrown at weddings will kill birds

and a few hundred other things. People believe them without checking them out. The latter example (rice) has actually caused cities to pass laws against rice throwing. So I'm not believing anything until I see some substantiation.

Here is some documentation that denies it being true:

http://www.cephasministry.com/n1099.html

-washboard

[HotWireD]

-Rice thrown at weddings will kill birds


Marge told Lisa this on 'The Simpsons'...........

.......so it must be true.

[middletree]

Here is some documentation that denies it being true:

http://www.cephasministry.com/n1099.html

-washboard

thank you!

[blacksheep]

Yes, I've heard and read questionable things about Billy Graham in the past as well. But you can not fault his basic teaching, which, so far as I've ever heard, is Christ and the cross, just as Paul. I know he has a history of being very ecuminical, but I think his own teaching speaks to his belief in Jesus being the only way.

A mason? I've also read that, but how can anyone really know that?

[Evanescence]

Yes, I've heard and read questionable things about Billy Graham in the past as well. But you can not fault his basic teaching, which, so far as I've ever heard, is Christ and the cross, just as Paul. I know he has a history of being very ecuminical, but I think his own teaching speaks to his belief in Jesus being the only way.

A mason? I've also read that, but how can anyone really know that?

Yeah, and anyone can deny it, if you want to keep it secret...

he owns one of the largest Chrsitian publications out there today...and they printed the "official statement"

Its hard to say....

[clemsontigers23]

I'm pretty sure Billy Graham filed some sort of lawsuit against the sites and they were forced to remove his name from the list.

I've found many of Graham's teachings to be questionable, so for now I see him as possibly being a "wolf in sheep's clothing."

The fact that Mr. Graham is so involved in politics doesn't help matters any.

[blacksheep]

I've found many of Graham's teachings to be questionable, so for now I see him as possibly being a "wolf in sheep's clothing."

The fact that Mr. Graham is so involved in politics doesn't help matters any.

Yeah, and anyone can deny it, if you want to keep it secret...

he owns one of the largest Christian publications out there today...and they printed the "official statement"

Its hard to say....


Yes, well, like I said, his basic teaching on salvation seems to be sound. Again, he tends to be more ecumenical than I believe is prudent (though my beliefs on that could conceivably be incorrect.)

I don't know that being involved in politics should hurt or help. I knew a man once who believed he was called to the mission field of Hollywood and specifically celebrities. I can find no fault in that. Why shouldn’t it be the same for politics?

[clemsontigers23]

Yes, well, like I said, his basic teaching on salvation seems to be sound. Again, he tends to be more ecumenical than I believe is prudent (though my beliefs on that could conceivably be incorrect.)

I don't know that being involved in politics should hurt or help. I knew a man once who believed he was called to the mission field of Hollywood and specifically celebrities. I can find no fault in that. Why shouldn’t it be the same for politics?

Stephen Baldwin, Alec's brother, is a practicing Christian. I saw him on a preacher's show one time....forgot what it was called. He actually wrote a book about it called "Unusual Suspects" because he is the star of "Usual Suspects".

Perhaps you're right, but I've found no reason to discredit the sources that provide these quotes from Billy Graham, and the "Everyone already has Jesus" quote is especially alarming.

[Jason]

My grandpa was a Mason and my grandma was part of the Order of the Eastern Star (a fraternal organization that allows women relatives of Masons).

Their grave is below, with Masonic symbols. Notice the upside down pentagram on the lower right.

[clemsontigers23]

Exactly, Jason. That's the main thing that's being pointed out is the symbolism. Serpents and pentagrams play a big part in Masonic society.

[Evanescence]

Freemasons as well as other secret societies suck people in with these high rollers and big wheels...

The unsuspecting person thinks..."Well, if its OK for so-and-so to be in it, why not me" OR "Many great men were in the order, so it can't be a bad thing"

Honorary members play this role....

Ben Franklin as well as many founding fathers were Masons. Franklin was also in the Rosa Crutia (sp) a luciferian order in Euopre and the US. He also mingled with a few unscrupluous characters prior to the Revolution...one of which ran the first Gentlemens Club in France, called the Hellfire Group, run by a notorious Freemason, mystic and satanist. This club was a haven for drunken orgies, opium dens and political palm greasing. Some have said he was there for the greater good as many of their members were in Parliament...others say he was a pervert and a party animal. Franklin often talked like a Christian, and a Pagan. He was a different kinda cat.

A predominant Freemason in France, Sir Francis Bacon, believed that the USA...or America, as it was called in his time, was the "new atlantis". This lost paradise was a Utopia....and it was this thinking that led to the true New World Order way of thinking. To create the perfect paradise, free of religion, war and laws. Sir Francis Bacon openly claimed to have received messages from the dead...anegls and demons. He was deeply into speaking with the dead and the other side.

I believe it is the same line of thinking that New Agers, Freemasons and other Secret Socieites use today...

If anyone thinks Masons don't take blood oaths, think again. Google- Captain William Morgan. He was murdered in the 1800s for writing a book, as an EX Freemason. It caused quite a stir. I think if a high level Freemason were to defect, they'd be bumped off.

History, its nothing new and not always what we've been taught. :cool:

[Parrot1965]

Depends on how credible the sources are...but it wouldn't surprise me. Billy Graham's the same guy who says everyone in the world already has Jesus, whether they know it or not.

I hope he gets his heart right with the Lord on these issues before he passes away- he can't be long for this world now that Mrs. Graham is gone.

[Evanescence]

I read a quote that was actually published from Billy Graham...

He basically said: "I often visit "Love-ins" in disguise and find them quite refreshing and interesting."

Love-ins are nice word for a sex orgy. Before someone blasts me, I'll find the source and direct quote...

[Evanescence]

OK here it is...

There's a bunch of articles that talk about Billy Graham and I don't have time to check them out for credibility. However, this quote sort of speaks for itself....although it is OLD.

He is also quoted as saying that he didnt' think there was anything wrong with Freemasonry or secret societies. Maybe thats cause many of his buddies are Masons.

--------------------------------------------
http://educate-yourself.org/mc/illumformula5Bchap.shtml

Billy Graham said that he "often attends love-ins and rock festivals incognito by putting on a false mustache and beard." He also said he found the experience in doing that kind of thing "refreshing." This story was in the Chicago Daily News, Dec. 29, 1969.

The article’s purpose appears to have been to make Billy Graham look hip to today’s rock and roll crowds of teenagers.

[clemsontigers23]

OK here it is...

There's a bunch of articles that talk about Billy Graham and I don't have time to check them out for credibility. However, this quote sort of speaks for itself....although it is OLD.

He is also quoted as saying that he didnt' think there was anything wrong with Freemasonry or secret societies. Maybe thats cause many of his buddies are Masons.

--------------------------------------------
http://educate-yourself.org/mc/illumformula5Bchap.shtml

Billy Graham said that he "often attends love-ins and rock festivals incognito by putting on a false mustache and beard." He also said he found the experience in doing that kind of thing "refreshing." This story was in the Chicago Daily News, Dec. 29, 1969.

The article’s purpose appears to have been to make Billy Graham look hip to today’s rock and roll crowds of teenagers.

A fake mustache and beard, going incognito to love-ins and rock concerts...I don't know whether to laugh or just feel sorry for him. What a fake.

Parrot is right, if these allegations are true one can only pray Graham will have his heart right on the Day of Judgment, and hopefully he hasn't led anyone astray.

[Evanescence]

So, now the million dollar question:

Its common knowledge that many US Presidents were freemasons and/or in other Secret Societies. Many in top positions...

Prescott Bush- Freemason and Skull and Bones
George Bush Sr.- 33 Degree Mason, Skull and Bones
GW Bush- Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove
John Kerry- Skull and Bones
Dick Cheney- Bohemian Grove
etc etc...

To those of you who are adament Bush supporters.....claiming he is a "Good, Godly Christian," does it bother you in the least that he, along with his entire family have been in secret societies for nearly 3 generations? These same secret societies with idealology based in the occult, mystisism and wanting an NWO?

Should we trust any of our politicians if they have these connections? Its been said that only Lincoln and JFK were NOT into any secret societies....

Lastly, given the FACT this administration and their family has ties of this nature, should be any surprise that they might do soemthing sinister enough to perpetuate the NWO? This keeping mind that G. Bush Sr is quoted on more than one occassion, calling for a NWO.

Thoughts?

[Evanescence]

Here's an interesting video about Bohemian Grove. Many top US and worldwide officials have been part of this secret society which openly admits to mock human sacrifice and mock rituals of a God named Mol-nick (sp)

It seems very genuine and reliable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_PAqT2JZOw&mode=related&search=

[mat1583]

OK here it is...

There's a bunch of articles that talk about Billy Graham and I don't have time to check them out for credibility. However, this quote sort of speaks for itself....although it is OLD.


Credibility...therein lies the problem. I tried and tried and tried to find the original article, or at least an internet archived version of the article. The only thing I could find is the extremely biased site you posted, which is why I find it difficult to consider it as credible evidence. Anybody can take a quote and make it look horrible outside its original context. It's often done with Bible verses!

-washboard

[SueQ]

Getting back to reality......I will relate what I know personally.....My friend, we'll call him Kevin, was saved and attended a Bible-teaching church for many years.....His nickname in college was "Preacher" as he led weekly Bible Meetings in his dorm....He married one of my friends and they joined a Bible-based church nearby. He was very knowledgable in Scripture. Soon, however, he felt lonely for friends of a certain intellectual stature and eventually joined the Masons in search of more Knowledge and Truth. (At that point I reminded him of Adam and Eve's desire.) Eventually, he left the church. Ten years later.....He has left his wife of 11 years for a woman he met from his Unitarian Universalist church and has tried on many "spiritualities" finally settling on Paganism as the "truth"...He has denounced Christianity....He believes this divorce and new lady will help him grow as a person....This is what Masonry has done for him and his family......In a sense I am glad that she and her daughter will now be farther away from that....

[TX3DFan]

I hope he gets his heart right with the Lord on these issues before he passes away- he can't be long for this world now that Mrs. Graham is gone.

Wow, some pretty strong words about someone you don't know personally. I'm suprised how this thread has turned into a Billy Graham bashing. There may be some things theologically you and he may disagree on but I've never seen Billy Graham do anything in his crusades but lift up the name of Jesus Christ and present the Gospel message in it's truest form to those who don't believe. I am convinced based on recent interviews I've read with Billy that he's more right with God than I am and I am confident in my salvation. Regardless of what theological differences you may have with him, I truly feel he is an icon to the Christian faith that should be respected for his unashamed preaching of the Gospel for the past 50-60 years.

Like washboard, I also tried my best to find some un-biased evidence of what some here have claimed that he's done and said but I can't find anything but uncredible biased hogwash like the link posted earlier. The best I've read was the link posted earlier by washboard on page 2 that was an official statement from his organization that denies any involvement with the freemasons. But I guess some here find it easier to believe biased websites against Billy Graham and consider the official statement from Billy Graham Ministries as out-right lies.

If what some of these biased sites claim as truth about how Billy Graham believes, why would he even do his crusades? There would be no reason to preach the Gospel all over the world if people already have Jesus in them, it would be pointless.

[TX3DFan]

So, now the million dollar question:

Its common knowledge that many US Presidents were freemasons and/or in other Secret Societies. Many in top positions...

Prescott Bush- Freemason and Skull and Bones
George Bush Sr.- 33 Degree Mason, Skull and Bones
GW Bush- Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove
John Kerry- Skull and Bones
Dick Cheney- Bohemian Grove
etc etc...

To those of you who are adament Bush supporters.....claiming he is a "Good, Godly Christian," does it bother you in the least that he, along with his entire family have been in secret societies for nearly 3 generations? These same secret societies with idealology based in the occult, mystisism and wanting an NWO?

Should we trust any of our politicians if they have these connections? Its been said that only Lincoln and JFK were NOT into any secret societies....

Lastly, given the FACT this administration and their family has ties of this nature, should be any surprise that they might do soemthing sinister enough to perpetuate the NWO? This keeping mind that G. Bush Sr is quoted on more than one occassion, calling for a NWO.

Thoughts?

Yes, always bring it around to bash the President and those who support him. This is all based on "supposed" involvement in SECRET societies. If it's a SECRET society, how do we know who's been a member of them? Is there some roster posted on the Internet somewhere that shows me all the members of Skull and Bones or Freemasons? Is there any news articles or interviews available with Bush Sr or Bush or Cheney where they admit to being part of these SECRET societies? I'd really like to see that.

[Evanescence]

Yes, always bring it around to bash the President and those who support him. This is all based on "supposed" involvement in SECRET societies. If it's a SECRET society, how do we know who's been a member of them? Is there some roster posted on the Internet somewhere that shows me all the members of Skull and Bones or Freemasons? Is there any news articles or interviews available with Bush Sr or Bush or Cheney where they admit to being part of these SECRET societies? I'd really like to see that.

Well, yeah, he IS our President, so why wouldn't we look into the things he does and/or did?

I really grow tired of this biased, Christian mentality that the Republican party is GODS party and Bush is a good Godly man. We know NOTHING about him. We only know what we've been programmed...through the machine of politics. Are we so dumb that we'll let anyone in as long as their on the Rep ballot? Or pro-life? Aren't Christians smarter than this?

Look, when Clinto was in office, I really didn't follow politics. But, i did begin to look intot he Pro-life movement and found out some things about him. His sex scandle was also suspect to lying and corruption. But, he's not in now and he didn't start a major war. Bush did.

Secret Societies can be out there in the open but have SECRETIVE ways. Get caught lurking around one of their meetings one time and see what happens. Squel on the Freemasons and see what happens...

Proof that the Bush family and Dick Cheney are into secret societies? Where do you wnat to begin? There's miles of this info...all public knowledge. Look at the facts, study and clear your mind of prejudice. Allow God and the HS to guide you to the truth. If not, the enemy wins....laughing while we argue who is right and wrong...or has credible proof. Call a spade a spade.

ClemsonCat23, I'm awaiting your answer. Don't hold out on me old friend...:P :cool:

PS...

1. Its rumored that one of the initiations for Skull and Bones is digging up graves and stealing...you guessed it, skulls and bones. Its heavily debated that Prescott Bush stole the remains of Geronimo.

2. Fact: Every July, members flock to the forests of Northern California at the Bohemian Grove camp. There, the do mock human sacrifies, parade around half-naked, and do other occult rituals and activities. All for fun? Who knows, but to me its NON-Christian behavoir.

Hmmm...I wonder if good Old GW, Rummy and Cheney were there? I'd hate to see them nude...LMBO...:eek:

[clemsontigers23]

Well, yeah, he IS our President, so why wouldn't we look into the things he does and/or did?

I really grow tired of this biased, Christian mentality that the Republican party is GODS party and Bush is a good Godly man. We know NOTHING about him. We only know what we've been programmed...through the machine of politics. Are we so dumb that we'll let anyone in as long as their on the Rep ballot? Or pro-life? Aren't Christians smarter than this?

Look, when Clinto was in office, I really didn't follow politics. But, i did begin to look intot he Pro-life movement and found out some things about him. His sex scandle was also suspect to lying and corruption. But, he's not in now and he didn't start a major war. Bush did.

Proof that the Bush family and Dick Cheney are into secret societies? Where do you wnat to begin? There's miles of this info...all public knowledge. Look at the facts, study and clear your mind of prejudice. Allow God and the HS to guide you to the truth. If not, the enemy wins....laughing while we argue who is right and wrong...or has credible proof. Call a spade a spade.

ClemsonCat23, I'm awaiting your answer. Don't hold out on me old friend...

PS...

1. Its rumored that one of the initiations for Skull and Bones is digging up graves and stealing...you guessed it, skulls and bones. Its heavily debated that Prescott Bush stole the remains of Geronimo.

2. Fact: Every July, members flock to the forests of Northern California at the Bohemian Grove camp. There, the do mock human sacrifies, parade around half-naked, and do other occult rituals and activities. All for fun? Who knows, but to me its NON-Christian behavoir.

Hmmm...I wonder if good Old GW, Rummy and Cheney were there? I hate to see them nude...LMBO...

I have no answer...I wouldn't doubt George was part of this, though.

[Evanescence]

I have no answer...I wouldn't doubt George was part of this, though.

You see, we don't always know the whole truth....as history and truth can be manipulated by sinister forces or those with agendas. History is often written by the winners....the truth, by those who wish to trick.

Like the magician once said, "Pay close attention. Are you watching closely?"

Then you're wallets gone....:cool:

[Evanescence]

Someone asked about proof? This is common knowledge...note the last lines...

From Wikipedia-: Skull and Bones

Judy Schiff, Chief Archivist at the Yale University Library, has written : "The names of (S&B's) members weren't kept secret -— that was an innovation of the 1970s —- but its meetings and practices were. The secrecy seems to have attracted fascination and curiosity from the start. The first exposé of Skull and Bones, published in 1871 by Lyman Bagg in his book Four Years at Yale, noted that "the mystery now attending its existence forms the one great enigma which college gossip never tires of discussing." [6]

At least during some periods, the membership of the organization was not considered a secret. Membership in each class was published, apparently by the organization itself, in the New York Times.

Notwithstanding that resourceful researchers could assemble member data from these original sources, renewed attention may have been paid to leading families in Skull and Bones because in 1985 an anonymous source leaked rosters to a private researcher, Antony C. Sutton, who wrote a book on the group titled America's Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones. This leaked 1985 data was kept privately for over 15 years, as Sutton feared that the photocopied pages could somehow identify the member who leaked it. The information was finally reformatted as an appendix in the book Fleshing out Skull and Bones, a compilation edited by Kris Millegan, published in 2003.

Many influential figures have been in Bones and influential families have often had multiple members over successive generations, much like other societies at Yale. Bonesmen include U.S. Presidents such as George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush and William Howard Taft, Supreme Court Justices, and U.S. business leaders.

Both 2004 Presidential Nominees —- Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and now two-term President George W. Bush — were members of Skull and Bones. The nominees were interviewed separately by Meet the Press's Tim Russert. When asked about the organization, both declined to give any details.[2]

[SueQ]

Anybody want to tell us more about what Masons believe? We've heard enough about who are alledged to be Masons.....

[clemsontigers23]

Anybody want to tell us more about what Masons believe? We've heard enough about who are alledged to be Masons.....

I put a link on here earlier, but the details of their beliefs are too sexual to put on here...it's a very sexual description of the Holy Spirit, but many believe their idea of the Holy Spirit is a serpent, as they said a serpent wrapped around a tree is symbolic for "the creation of the universe." I believe I put the link on the 1st page, but it might have been the 2nd page.

Only 33rd degree Masons really know the truth, but it's been said they worship the goddess Lilith, who was the wife of satan, and who will one day be the wife of satan again.

[blacksheep]

I put a link on here earlier, but the details of their beliefs are too sexual to put on here...it's a very sexual description of the Holy Spirit, but many believe their idea of the Holy Spirit is a serpent, as they said a serpent wrapped around a tree is symbolic for "the creation of the universe." I believe I put the link on the 1st page, but it might have been the 2nd page.

Only 33rd degree Masons really know the truth, but it's been said they worship the goddess Lilith, who was the wife of satan, and who will one day be the wife of satan again.

LOL. This is all speculation. I think we established that it's not the best to be a mason and the rest may or may not be true at all. The snake is called an Ouroboros. It's Greek and could have been inspired by the Milky Way. It has typically been used in philosophy to describe infinity. Christians have, in the past, used it to develop a picture of the teachings in Ecclesiastes.

I think I agree with what TX3DFan said about Billy Graham. I checked into Love-ins, the best I could, and found that it was just another name for a piece rally. I was amazed at how many posters immediately took love-ins = orgy as fact. Let's use a little reason and an even hand when we approach a problem.

[Evanescence]

Masonry is rooted in all the essocteric religions....mainly from Egypt....with serious Pagan influences.

A Google search on Sir. Francis Bacon, who is often called, The Grandfather of modern Freemasonry, will yield his ideas and ways. Masons hold him in VERY high esteem.

I just got a Freemasonry DVD and watched it once. its VERY well done with a lot of history about early America.

Anyone ever hear the theory that Shakespear was a FRAUD and Sir Francis Bacon and his coherts wrote most if not all of his works? Its an old legend and conspiracy theory. For another day though.

[Yippy]

I don't have time to check them out for credibility.

The article’s purpose appears ...

The most disturbing thing is Billy Graham is apparently a 33rd degree freemason, but Billy Graham is a fraud anyways.


Well, you all have me convinced...;)

(I don't know if I'd do any debating anytime soon if I were you.:D )

[clemsontigers23]

Well, you all have me convinced...;)

(I don't know if I'd do any debating anytime soon if I were you.:D )

I've always been bad at debates lol.

[blacksheep]

A Google search on Sir. Francis Bacon, who is often called, The Grandfather of modern Freemasonry, will yield his ideas and ways. Masons hold him in VERY high esteem.



Quick history lesson for those who don't remember 6th grade science. Bacon is credited with coming up with the scientific method during a time when scientist were being killed because their ideas were considered heretical, thus thrusting himself into the scientific community. The Baconian Method, in my opinion, is something that has fallen by the wayside over the past decade, leading to some of the most dubious Science since before Bacon came up with his philosophical parameters. He believed that philosophy would bring a man closer to God, if it were true philosophy and not the ponderings of a twit. Now, the fact that he allied himself with science when to do so was not popular and not congruent with the beliefs of the church (small "c") it is no wonder that he was immediately, even during his time, attached to the occult. Now, nearly 400 years after his death, a few dudes on the internet can perpetuate the idea. I'm not saying that he wasn't an evil satanist, but I am saying that his own writings and stated beliefs do not seem to place him in that company, so why should we believe the dude that built a website about it?

[Evanescence]

Quick history lesson for those who don't remember 6th grade science. Bacon is credited with coming up with the scientific method during a time when scientist were being killed because their ideas were considered heretical, thus thrusting himself into the scientific community. The Baconian Method, in my opinion, is something that has fallen by the wayside over the past decade, leading to some of the most dubious Science since before Bacon came up with his philosophical parameters. He believed that philosophy would bring a man closer to God, if it were true philosophy and not the ponderings of a twit. Now, the fact that he allied himself with science when to do so was not popular and not congruent with the beliefs of the church (small "c") it is no wonder that he was immediately, even during his time, attached to the occult. Now, nearly 400 years after his death, a few dudes on the internet can perpetuate the idea. I'm not saying that he wasn't an evil satanist, but I am saying that his own writings and stated beliefs do not seem to place him in that company, so why should we believe the dude that built a website about it?

Probably becuase the wesbite is based on written documents about a mans life in Freemasonry. The library is a wonderful place...

[kiwisongbird]

I forgotten a lot of what I've read about masonry, but I know that daughters of masons are often looking for love in other places because their fathers are too busy with their secret society...

I know that many spiritual bondages come on children of masons that have to be worked through...

I feel sad when I think of all the Christian leaders that America has had and the fact that many of them were Masons - controlled by other than Jesus Christ...

[blacksheep]

Probably becuase the wesbite is based on written documents about a mans life in Freemasonry. The library is a wonderful place...

LOL

[Evanescence]

Quick history lesson for those who don't remember 6th grade science. Bacon is credited with coming up with the scientific method during a time when scientist were being killed because their ideas were considered heretical, thus thrusting himself into the scientific community. The Baconian Method, in my opinion, is something that has fallen by the wayside over the past decade, leading to some of the most dubious Science since before Bacon came up with his philosophical parameters. He believed that philosophy would bring a man closer to God, if it were true philosophy and not the ponderings of a twit. Now, the fact that he allied himself with science when to do so was not popular and not congruent with the beliefs of the church (small "c") it is no wonder that he was immediately, even during his time, attached to the occult. Now, nearly 400 years after his death, a few dudes on the internet can perpetuate the idea. I'm not saying that he wasn't an evil satanist, but I am saying that his own writings and stated beliefs do not seem to place him in that company, so why should we believe the dude that built a website about it?

This is mostly true and he was indeed quite an extraordinary man. But the fact remains..and it is fact, that Bacon was the key figure in mapping Masonry as it exists today...as well as a key player in Rosa Crutia another secret society with Egyptian, Essoteric and occult influences. Its well known and documented that Bacon communicated witht he dead and was deeply into Athena, a Goddess with a spear. Legend has it she'd "shake her spear" at ignorance. Hence the name Shakespeare. Its still a hot debate on whether or not the Strattford Shakespear was a fraud or not.

Bacon had a complete literary group and was interested in educating Europe through plays and works. Ironically, many of Shakespears plays have symbols and icons specifically used by Bacon, carefully hidden of course. Further, some of the works dealt with courts and law, something that only Bacon knew about. They were flawless in their dealings with laws and the courts of England. Bacon was a lawyer.

Sir Francis Bacon tucked secrets into these many works, which William Shakespeare was given credit for, but was paid to do. He was paid large sums of money to be this writer, for the purpose of advancing Bacons views and ideas. They were written by Bacon and his literary guild. They were all skilled writers. Mark Twain researched it and wrote a book about it. Several 18th and 19th century books have been written about it. Its pretty well documented that Shakespeare couldn't even write.

The Rosa Crutia complex/museum in Santa Ana, CA is virtually dedicated to Sir Francis Bacon. It is completely filled with Pagan, Egyptian and Pagan symbols.

[blacksheep]

Bacon had a complete literary group and was interested in educating Europe through plays and works. Ironically, many of Shakespeare’s plays have symbols and icons specifically used by Bacon, carefully hidden of course. Further, some of the works dealt with courts and law, something that only Bacon knew about. They were flawless in their dealings with laws and the courts of England. Bacon was a lawyer.

Sir Francis Bacon tucked secrets into these many works, which William Shakespeare was given credit for, but was paid to do. He was paid large sums of money to be this writer, for the purpose of advancing Bacons views and ideas. They were written by Bacon and his literary guild. They were all skilled writers.

The Rosa Crutia complex/museum in Santa Ana, CA is virtually dedicated to Sir Francis Bacon. It is completely filled with Pagan, Egyptian and Pagan symbols.


The FACT is that many very learned men are still debating whether or not
Bacon wrote or had anything to do with Shakespeare. Though I don't know why it would be a surprise to anyone that a book might be ghost written or written under a pseudonym (I'm not sure what this has to do with the current discussion.) It also shouldn't be a surprise that a man living in the late 1500s might have ideas that today we can easily see as being preposterous. Let's examine a more contemporary example. C. S. Lewis was very much into ancient mystics and ideas that can well be considered pagan. He enjoyed them for their literary richness and for some philosophical value, even incorporating them into some of his own works. This (and I think most would agree, no?) does not make Lewis a pagan. However, will people 400 years from now believe that Lewis started a religion that had a physical lion as it's head? Or that he really believed that Venus and Mars were inhabited by other races or beings? My only concern, so far as the discussion on masonry goes, is that we can be a little heavy handed when we are talking about individual people even though we really don't know them and don't know how reliable the information on some website is. By the bye, I do enjoy the library very much.

[Evanescence]

The FACT is that many very learned men are still debating whether or not
Bacon wrote or had anything to do with Shakespeare. Though I don't know why it would be a surprise to anyone that a book might be ghost written or written under a pseudonym (I'm not sure what this has to do with the current discussion.) It also shouldn't be a surprise that a man living in the late 1500s might have ideas that today we can easily see as being preposterous. Let's examine a more contemporary example. C. S. Lewis was very much into ancient mystics and ideas that can well be considered pagan. He enjoyed them for their literary richness and for some philosophical value, even incorporating them into some of his own works. This (and I think most would agree, no?) does not make Lewis a pagan. However, will people 400 years from now believe that Lewis started a religion that had a physical lion as it's head? Or that he really believed that Venus and Mars were inhabited by other races or beings? My only concern, so far as the discussion on masonry goes, is that we can be a little heavy handed when we are talking about individual people even though we really don't know them and don't know how reliable the information on some website is. By the bye, I do enjoy the library very much.

The average person doesn't even know Freemasonry exists or what their about...even in the least.

Story:

When I met my wife, she told me she dated a Mason. They went out twice. She said he was VERY secretive and wouldnt tell her anything about it...he was proud to have the secret.

I thought she dated a STONE Mason. I wondered what the secret was about. I consider myself to be fairly smart (no jokes please) but at age 33, i didn't even know the 1st thing about Masonry.

Thats why i say, the average American knows very little about history and/or key issues in politics and religion. This is why few people look into the Truth about 9/11. Its way over their heads...

Their more interested in doing their own things.....even if the country goes to hell. Its way in the past.

The same people will be lined up for blocks ready to get their micro-chip in their arm....making the world a better place.

Ignorance is bliss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:e ek:

Yeah right.

[TX3DFan]

Well, yeah, he IS our President, so why wouldn't we look into the things he does and/or did?

I really grow tired of this biased, Christian mentality that the Republican party is GODS party and Bush is a good Godly man. We know NOTHING about him. We only know what we've been programmed...through the machine of politics. Are we so dumb that we'll let anyone in as long as their on the Rep ballot? Or pro-life? Aren't Christians smarter than this?
.......


I don't see anywhere in my post where I took a "biased, Christian mentality that the Republican party is GODS party and Bush is a good Godly man". I just asserted the fact that you seem to take every opportunity possible to attack the President whether it's truthful or not, even in a thread about secret societies.

The gist of my post was to make my belief known that I really don't think anyone can truthfully and honestly know whether these people were members of these secret societies without a shadow of a doubt.

[TX3DFan]

Someone asked about proof? This is common knowledge...note the last lines...

From Wikipedia-: Skull and Bones

......................... ....

Both 2004 Presidential Nominees —- Massachusetts Senator John Kerry and now two-term President George W. Bush — were members of Skull and Bones. The nominees were interviewed separately by Meet the Press's Tim Russert. When asked about the organization, both declined to give any details.[2]

Oh PLEASE tell me you didn't just quote from Wikipedia as FACT.

I second Yippy's comment earlier "(I don't know if I'd do any debating anytime soon if I were you. :D )"

[blacksheep]

I thought she dated a STONE Mason. I wondered what the secret was about. I consider myself to be fairly smart (no jokes please) but at age 33, i didn't even know the 1st thing about Masonry.



LOL. *laughs with you, not at you*


Thats why i say, the average American knows very little about history and/or key issues in politics and religion. This is why few people look into the Truth about 9/11. Its way over their heads...


Maybe this should be a seperate post, because it's a little off topic. We are getting into a different set of questions. I don't know, I'll have to think on it. Never the less, I agree with your statement.

[Evanescence]

Oh PLEASE tell me you didn't just quote from Wikipedia as FACT.

I second Yippy's comment earlier "(I don't know if I'd do any debating anytime soon if I were you. :D )"

I'll get Tim Russert on the phone to prove it happened....

You scoffers are so funny...you'll make up anything to get out of facing the truth....:rolleyes:

[Evanescence]

I don't see anywhere in my post where I took a "biased, Christian mentality that the Republican party is GODS party and Bush is a good Godly man". I just asserted the fact that you seem to take every opportunity possible to attack the President whether it's truthful or not, even in a thread about secret societies.

The gist of my post was to make my belief known that I really don't think anyone can truthfully and honestly know whether these people were members of these secret societies without a shadow of a doubt.

I didn't directly point any fingers...but it did come off that way...

[blacksheep]

I'll get Tim Russert on the phone to prove it happened....

You scoffers are so funny...you'll make up anything to get out of facing the truth....

C'mon Evan, this is the kind of talk that got the 9/11 post shut down. Nice use of hyperbolie, by the way. Tim Russert was a nice touch. Maybe you could get a job on CNN as the Revisionist History Expert.

I'll stick by one of my previous statements in that evil does better to remain in the everyday and mundane than in highbrow conspiracy.

As to your evidences, Evan, I still consider them dubious and no better than the guy who has posted "6000 years of religious history scrapped" or whatever it is.

I spent three years sucked into some of the very same ideas that you are into right now. I came to the point that much of the evidence I had been collecting was circular in reasoning, unable to be supported by history, and illogical. It was the same type of reasoning and evidence that masons use to support their beliefs and that the Jesus Seminar uses to support their beliefs.

[SueQ]

Can I sum it up for all of us?

masonry = not a good idea

imho ;)

[mcgreen311]

I'll get Tim Russert on the phone to prove it happened....

You scoffers are so funny...you'll make up anything to get out of facing the truth....:rolleyes:

The problem is that Wikipedia is not known as the bastion of undeniable fact since it an internet resource that can be updated by anyone. It only had two footnotes. Granted, the format is easier to read, but it's best to look at the additional reading at the bottom of the page and quote from there. If you can, always go to an original source.

Anyway, as SueQ keeps trying to reign this thing in.

masonry = not a good idea

[Yippy]

You scoffers are so funny...you'll make up anything to get out of facing the truth....:rolleyes:
:confused: No one's made anything up. The scoffers are scoffing at what's been made up. That's what scoffers do.:P

[truster]

Can I sum it up for all of us?

masonry = not a good idea

imho ;)


This is perhaps my favorite post of this whole thread. :) Probably more because of the timing and tone, rather than for the truth within. :)

[Evanescence]

The problem is that Wikipedia is not known as the bastion of undeniable fact since it an internet resource that can be updated by anyone. It only had two footnotes. Granted, the format is easier to read, but it's best to look at the additional reading at the bottom of the page and quote from there. If you can, always go to an original source.

Yeah, but why not discredit everything. You sound like some wacky conspiracy theorist who has an answer for everything. And, no that isnt me either. Look ast my posts.

Its a common sense issue. Why would someone lie about Bush and Kerry being on tim Russerts show and refusing to talk about Bones?

What kind of proof do you want? A signed paper by Bush? Its common knowledge, and can be found in books and websites everywhere.

I spent three years sucked into some of the very same ideas that you are into right now. I came to the point that much of the evidence I had been collecting was circular in reasoning, unable to be supported by history, and illogical. It was the same type of reasoning and evidence that masons use to support their beliefs and that the Jesus Seminar uses to support their beliefs.

I don't get sucked in...and don't get wrapped up in anything. I've never studied the JFK theories or any Con theories for that matter. Till now. And I studied it for over 1 year, with a very open mind and discerning heart. I am skeptical of manythings...including people who are skeptical. But, this is different. Its not the thread to talk about it, but again, i don't have ideas that most people can't agree with. I don't trust our Govt.

Secret Societies and our Govt? Very suspiscious and questionable...

Politicians that are supposed to be "Christian" and yet dabble in secret societies with other dubious individuals? Questionable.

Especially with whats going on in the world, whats been quoted, documented, forced onto us and planned. Its all right in front of us...IMO. Its up to us to see it.

[Evanescence]

Thats why i say, the average American knows very little about history and/or key issues in politics and religion. This is why few people look into the Truth about 9/11. Its way over their heads...

Maybe this should be a seperate post, because it's a little off topic. We are getting into a different set of questions. I don't know, I'll have to think on it. Never the less, I agree with your statement.


Top line my post...bottom line was yours....

Yeah, people are too busy with their own thing to investigate and make up their own mind. The dumb box, TV draws and distracts them, their Playstation or X-Box killing brian cells. As long as they can make it to Friday, they could care less about anything....

Meanwhile, the country is going to pot...

[mcgreen311]

Yeah, but why not discredit everything. You sound like some wacky conspiracy theorist who has an answer for everything. And, no that isnt me either. Look ast my posts.


Are you talking about me being a wacky conspiracy theorist? I didn't post the rest of what you quoted in your post, and that, until now, was my only contribution to the thread.

[SueQ]

**Control Tower: We have a confirmed hijacking on our flight......This baby ain't never landing at its original destination....***

*Looking around*....Where's my parachute?

[blacksheep]

So, now the million dollar question:

Its common knowledge that many US Presidents were freemasons and/or in other Secret Societies. Many in top positions...

Prescott Bush- Freemason and Skull and Bones
George Bush Sr.- 33 Degree Mason, Skull and Bones
GW Bush- Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove
John Kerry- Skull and Bones
Dick Cheney- Bohemian Grove
etc etc...

To those of you who are adament Bush supporters.....claiming he is a "Good, Godly Christian," does it bother you in the least that he, along with his entire family have been in secret societies for nearly 3 generations? These same secret societies with idealology based in the occult, mystisism and wanting an NWO?

Should we trust any of our politicians if they have these connections? Its been said that only Lincoln and JFK were NOT into any secret societies....

Lastly, given the FACT this administration and their family has ties of this nature, should be any surprise that they might do soemthing sinister enough to perpetuate the NWO? This keeping mind that G. Bush Sr is quoted on more than one occassion, calling for a NWO.

Thoughts?


I was suspicious that this is where this post was heading since it started.


Secret Societies and our Govt? Very suspiscious and questionable...

Politicians that are supposed to be "Christian" and yet dabble in secret societies with other dubious individuals? Questionable.


I wouldn't be surprised that this was E's agenda from the start of the post.

[SueQ]

I was suspicious that this is where this post was heading since it started.




I wouldn't be surprised that this was E's agenda from the start of the post.

Me, too. Started out as an interesting topic.....too bad I had to jump....

[Evanescence]

I was suspicious that this is where this post was heading since it started.




I wouldn't be surprised that this was E's agenda from the start of the post.

Yep, 100% bait and switch. Proud of it too. It had to be done 'cause seriously, some people on these forums and in the Christian community, know NOTHING about our leaders and what they do. They think if their Rep and pro-life (anti-abortion) that they're Gods gift to the world. Many Christians think we have the right to overthrow countries and kill people, becuase we are "one nation under God"....God's nation, doing away with the heathens and evil doers. Bull! Its the same mentality that allowed slaves, our leaders to SLEPP with slaves and the same mentality that lead to the extermination of the American Indians. ALL FACTS.

Its funny how many Bush fans didn't come out to play when I posted some legit info and called their bluff. At least my old pal Clemson-dude had the guts to come out and answer honestly.

No offense to my fellow Christian friends who think like this, but ya'll gotta wake up and see what are leaders are made of. ALL of them.

Next up. Dems take over the Senate and want the White House.

Let's dance !!!!!!!!!!! :cool: :cool: :cool:

[blacksheep]

My father-inlaw has been asked to join the Freemasons. He thinks it is no big deal...just a fraternity of fine men etc etc.

I am not so sure...

Should a Christian dabble with secret societies? Can we say that a man thats part of one of these groups is a true Christian?

Again, I am not so sure...

I suggest that E had embarked on another agenda from the start and he replies:

Yep, 100% bait and switch. Proud of it too.

You are habitually dishonest, E. Others and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You can not facilitate a valid discussion when it is based on poor trickery and calling your opponents scoffers. Your response to any evidence brought against your ideas is that it's all part of the conspiracy; therefore, the only person with any credible information is the person who supports your view. If you want to open poor, little, stupid, blind, anglo-saxon, republican, Christian's eyes, then you should do it with honesty. While I'm sure your whole one year of research has lead to an air tight case against everything we know and believe, you have to realize that the rest of us just aren't up to speed. Remember, we are all so much younger than you, and may not be able to accept as much truth as you have been able to suck up in your one year of research. If you want to "dance", then lets "dance". Stop playing these childish games.

[Evanescence]

I suggest that E had embarked on another agenda from the start and he replies:



You are habitually dishonest, E. Others and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You can not facilitate a valid discussion when it is based on poor trickery and calling your opponents scoffers. Your response to any evidence brought against your ideas is that it's all part of the conspiracy; therefore, the only person with any credible information is the person who supports your view. If you want to open poor, little, stupid, blind, anglo-saxon, republican, Christian's eyes, then you should do it with honesty. While I'm sure your whole one year of research has lead to an air tight case against everything we know and believe, you have to realize that the rest of us just aren't up to speed. Remember, we are all so much younger than you, and may not be able to accept as much truth as you have been able to suck up in your one year of research. If you want to "dance", then lets "dance". Stop playing these childish games.

lol....

I'm one of the most honest people you'll meet....or dance with.

Boy the PMs must be really flying around....:rolleyes:

Come to the conclusion that life as you know it and history in general isn't what we fully understand or the truth. Maybe then you won't be a Blacksheep...

[SueQ]

Come to the conclusion that life as you know it and history in general isn't what we fully understand or the truth.

It's good to see you admit that you don't know everything, E.

[blacksheep]

Come to the conclusion that life as you know it and history in general isn't what we fully understand or the truth. Maybe then you won't be a Blacksheep...


Ha..... maybe then i won't be a blacksheep! *shakes his head and blows the sand out of the keyboard remembering with a smile why he is called blacksheep*

If your statement about history is accurate, if I understand what you are saying, and if history isn't what it is known to be, then we are in a Catch 22. Nothing we know, to include the Bible or the historical Church, can be counted on to be truth. So the discussion is vanity.

[teresaUK]

..................... Like I said, if you don't advance beyond the lower levels, you will probably never notice anything strange or wrong.

Really? I find that amazing........... considering that the one of the first things a freemason does when starting off at the lowest level is to roll up one trouser leg, allow themselves to be blindfolded and have someone hold a knife to their throat and threaten to slit their throat & belly if they betray the oath. They also worship Baal at the lowest levels.............. oh maybe they can find a way to explain all this as being harmless........ and maybe they genuinely believe that Baal is another name for God................ I'm sorry for the sarcasm but I cannot believe that a born again, spirit-filled christian could think that Feemasonry is o.k. at any level.

[blacksheep]

My, that was a rather rabid post, considering that t-UK and I have never conversed before. I don't believe I've ever said that it was ok for a Christian to be involved with the masons, in fact, I said that it was not a good idea. While I must admit that I do lack first hand knowledge of lower level ceremonies, or any for that matter, I don't think that I am totally ignorant and I stand by my post that was blasted by t-UK. We must also take into consideration that there are different sects within the mason umbrella. At least two different schools exist in the U.S. and I'm not sure about Europe. So to say that there is a group that practices what t-UK said wouldn't surprise me. But to say that others do not, well, I would expect that also.

[Evanescence]

Ha..... maybe then i won't be a blacksheep! *shakes his head and blows the sand out of the keyboard remembering with a smile why he is called blacksheep*

If your statement about history is accurate, if I understand what you are saying, and if history isn't what it is known to be, then we are in a Catch 22. Nothing we know, to include the Bible or the historical Church, can be counted on to be truth. So the discussion is vanity.

That may very well be correct. But thats for another topic.

God is truth, but our interpretation, stories about Him and history surrounding him may not be. In fact, I'd almost guarantee it. The Vatican vaults hide the truth. :cool:

[Evanescence]

Really? I find that amazing........... considering that the one of the first things a freemason does when starting off at the lowest level is to roll up one trouser leg, allow themselves to be blindfolded and have someone hold a knife to their throat and threaten to slit their throat & belly if they betray the oath. They also worship Baal at the lowest levels.............. oh maybe they can find a way to explain all this as being harmless........ and maybe they genuinely believe that Baal is another name for God................ I'm sorry for the sarcasm but I cannot believe that a born again, spirit-filled christian could think that Feemasonry is o.k. at any level.

I think any REAL spirit filled Christian would research the Masons before joining. Then theyd see the truth.

However, a Mason who becomes convicted later on, could simply bow away from the Freemason order. I believe lower tier Masons are not bound by specifics like attendance and significant dedication. I think they can kind of go as they please.

But, I will say this. If I were proclaiming to be a Christian politician and was a former Freemason or member of a secret society, I would DENOUNCE my affiliation....regardless the factor. Many times, people are made Honorary members....but I would denounce that as well.

This is why people should be skeptical of leaders who are in these secret societies, but yet wave the Christian banner. Its inconsistent and misleading.

[Evanescence]

Some interesting quotes on Freemasonry and secret societies:

"It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am.
The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavored to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of seperation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a seperation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned."

President George Washington in a 1798 letter to George Washington Snyder


"There is sufficient evidence that a number of Societies of the Illuminati, have been established, in this land. . . . They are, doubtless, secretly striving to undermine all our ancient institutions, civil and sacred. . . . We live in an alarming period. The enemies of all order are seeking our ruin."

Joseph Willard- Retiring Harvard President in 1812


"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. . . ."

President Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom

"Give me control of a nation's currency and I care not who makes its laws".

Baron Rothschild


***There was also a quote, which i will find, that was from a famous politician in regards to the murder of Capt. William Morgan. He basically stated that the murders, could not be convicted due to the overwhelming influence of Freemasonry all thruogh the judicial system and government. That was in the mid, 1800's.

The first THIRD party was the Anti-Freemason party, founded and run by former president James Madison.

[blacksheep]

http://mastermason.com/WallerLodge/anti.htm

Here, might as well give the other side a voice. Not that I'm trying to stick up for them, but I do think it's best that we look at both sides if we're going to say that Masons are not Christians.

[clemsontigers23]

Who are the Illuminati? I've heard they originated from the Knights Templar and that they are very anti-Christian, but I'm not sure who they are.

[blacksheep]

Who are the Illuminati? I've heard they originated from the Knights Templar and that they are very anti-Christian, but I'm not sure who they are.

Several groups claim a Knight Templar lineage, though there has yet to be found any historical linkage between these groups and the knights. Knights Templar order was founded during or just after the first crusade in order to protect Europeans who were on pilgrimages to Jerusalem and surrounding areas. They grew to be a very wealthy order during this time. After fighting for several years they Europe lost control of Jerusalem to the Muslims and the knights were forced to withdraw. Upon return to Europe sometime in the 1300s, some of the leaders of that group and another Christian knight order were arrested by King Phillip (I forget which number) of France, tortured, and eventually killed under charge that they were heretics. This charge is suspect, however, because King Phillip was deeply in financial debt to the orders due to the Crusades themselves.

Templar symbols were not found within freemsonry until the 1700s.

The Illuminati as most think of it has yet to be proved as real, though there are many groups both real and fictitious that claim or have been believed to be apart of the illuminati.

[Evanescence]

Who are the Illuminati? I've heard they originated from the Knights Templar and that they are very anti-Christian, but I'm not sure who they are.

Illuminati were started as an offshoot of the Masons in the 1700's. Illuminati means...Enlightened ones.

In short, they grew large massing over 3000 members, were from France, then disbanded abruptly after a few years. People surmise they went underground.

They were VERY anti religious/Christian and were one of the first groups to REALLY push the NWO theory. They felt through science and knowledge, one would become Godlike. They also deal in Luciferiansim. A new group claims to be the NEW Illuminati.

A Google search can yield much history on them. their ideas were very dangerous...

Sat Night, off to see, Bourne Ultimatum. Good evening all !!!!!!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[bvc]

In short, they grew large massing over 3000 members, were from France, then disbanded abruptly after a few years. People surmise they went underground.welcome to america!
:cool:

[kiwisongbird]

I think Christians can do lots of dumb stuff, including be deceived and join the Masons... just because you're a Mason doesn't mean you're not a Christian, however.... once the Holy Spirit convicts you, then you should leave... and really, the initiation ceremony should kinda let you know that it's not quite right.... anyway, from reading I've done, it appears that after that initiation it is much easier for the men to be deceived as they allow themselves to be blinded spiritually in that first ceremony... Satan knows this - hence the blindfold, the cursing of yourself etc....

When we used to try to talk to Dad about it, even when we were polite, he would get really nasty and mean and say horrible things to us about demonic stuff - not like him at all...

We once asked him why he held onto all his paraphenalia when he didn't go along anymore and he would get really angry with us - we were polite and kind about it too...

Um, and often if you get into conversations with people who are children of Masons you may find that they really hate all that stuff and we do actually have reason too..