It's official...I now believe....9/11 Conspiracy PT III

[Evanescence]

I'm only going to post this once and won't talk much about it further than a few replies, so here goes.

After almost an entire year of carefully looking at the facts with an open, but careful mind and almost trying desperatley NOT to believe this, I have offically made up my mind based on three videos I have recently watched. I now fully believe our Govt or someone else perpetrated the 9/11 attacks.

There are too many coincidences, eyewitnesses attacks and outright impossibilities that come to play and I now feel the evidence is overwhelming that something more than we were told, happened that day. Here are a few key points:

1. Witnesses saw the planes that struck the world trade centers and clearly said, even on LIVE TV, that they were'nt commercial airliners. Two other things are disturbing when looking at undoctored video.

A. A bright flash can be clearly seen just before the planes...BOTH of them strike the building. There is no explantion for this.

B. On one of the planes an attachment of some sort can be seen on the bottom of the plane. I struggled with this for quite a while, but am now convinced it is there. What could it be?

2. I ALWAYS found it suspicious that one of the towers collapsed after only 22 minutes passed from when it was struck. There's no way fires did that. They clearly were not hot enough. I agree with the idea that they were demolished in a controlled demolition.

3. Building 7 was hardly burning...not even hit and it "collapsed"....but when it did the penthouse...the middle section went first. Like a controlled demolition. If you look at that video footage, it looks just like a controlled demolition...like the ones we see on TV every now and then.

A. Larry Silverstein, the lease owner of all three buildings, told PBS point blank that he gave the OK to "pull it, " because it was dangerous and that enough people have died. It takes WEEKS to rig a building, so how could this be?

4. The original hole in the Pentagon was only 20x20 feet wide. Thats documented in picts and film from that day. How can a 747 going 400+ MPH crash into the building....leave no traces of wreckage, or skids and only leave
only a 20x20 foot hole? Because it was soemthing else.

A. NORAD has a 100% interception rate for stray or suspicios aircraft, so could it fail 4 times in one day...even after the 1st hit? Surprise! Dick Cheney was right there at the helm....he was there that day.

B. Fact: Cheney was given 5 chances to stop Flight 77, the one that hit the Pentagon, but refused to allow F-16's to scramble.

C. Fact: Flight 77 disappeared from radar for nearly an hour over Ohio, then reappeared just outside of Washington. What a coincidence!!! Imagine that, an airplane diappearing during a national emergency???

5. Experts agree that cell phones can't work at above 10,000 feet, so the Flight 93 story is likley bogus. Virtually no wreckage was found of Flight 93 in Shanksville. The story is that it was absorbed into the ground. I always found that to be bull. Planes shatter at they are not solid steel.

6. The 911 commision refused to hear testimony of 503 rescue personell that were on the scene or nearby. Imagine that!!!

A. The 911 commision spent only 600K to investigate 911. By comparson, they spent 40 million on Clinton and his sexual exploits. Imagine that, the largest attack on US soil and they only spend 600K to investigate?

7. Lastly, I always felt it was suspicious that they had the names and pics of all the 19 hijackers within days of the 911 attacks. It was way too fast. The BBC reported that many of the "attackers" are alive and well in S. Arabia.

I could go on and on, and I don't expect anyone to jump on this bandwagon. And, I am not saying WHO specifically did this.... and I'm not playing politics....BUT, something is not right here. There is a worldwide society of VERY credible people....thousands of them, that believe the true conspiracy theory is what we were told about 911.

I would invite anyone with an open mind, who is truly patriotic and cares about the future of this country, to really dig deep and look into this. Find a video and check the source...look into this and judge for yourself. If you truly believe as i do, tell as many people as you can and invite them to look into it as well. We should demand a new investigation into this. Because this is the biggest coverup in the history of the world...and one of the worst crimes against humanity.

[Valpo]

joining the ranks of the lunatics, congratulations

i guess osama and co (al-qaeda) is a myth

reality outweighs weird coincidences my friend

[middletree]

I1. Witnesses saw the planes that struck the world trade centers and clearly said, even on LIVE TV, that they were'nt commercial airliners.

So what happened to the hundreds of passengers that left Boston and never made it to LA? Those airliners had to go somewhere.

Two other things are disturbing when looking at undoctored video.


How do you know that what you are looking at is undoctored?



4. The original hole in the Pentagon was only 20x20 feet wide. Thats documented in picts and film from that day. How can a 747 going 400+ MPH crash into the building....leave no traces of wreckage, or skids and only leave
only a 20x20 foot hole?


I met a guy on a plane who saw the 747 fly directly over his head (less than 100 feet over) just before it crashed. You are relying on eyewitness accounts in your other points, so why not this?

5. Experts agree that cell phones can't work at above 10,000 feet,


Actually, they do, but they work sporadically. Besides, phone operators reported conversations they had with Flight 93 passengers during the flight.


The 911 commision spent only 600K to investigate 911. By comparson, they spent 40 million on Clinton and his sexual exploits. Imagine that, the largest attack on US soil and they only spend 600K to investigate?


Words cannot convey the depth to which this is unconvincing.

[Evanescence]

Hi Tree, good questions. I can only surmise the answers...

So what happened to the hundreds of passengers that left Boston and never made it to LA? Those airliners had to go somewhere.


I feel this is an easy one. The planes were switched and the people eliminated. NORAD lost contact with Flight 77 for quite sometime and it could have easily been done. IMO

How do you know that what you are looking at is undoctored?


Any CNN or compilation clearly shows it, from mulitple angles at that.

Look, ever see a GREAT magic trick? I saw one the other day...its kicked total butt. I was dumfounded. But, the slight of hand...the trick itself is the true magic. Ever have a magic trick explained? Its in plain view....just like this, IMO.

I met a guy on a plane who saw the 747 fly directly over his head (less than 100 feet over) just before it crashed. You are relying on eyewitness accounts in your other points, so why not this?


Was this into the Pentagon or WTC? Either way, its a good point. One thing thing is that a Boeing 767....Military re-fueling plane looks identical to a 747. But has no windows. Hundreds of people...even commenting on LIVE TV, spoke that it was NOT a commercial airliner.....and had no windows. This in regards tot he WTC. I have heard witnesses speak of seeing different things for the Pentagon. Some feel it was a drone. Seismic readings didn't pick up ANY noise of it flying or hitting the Pentagon.

ALSO! I forgot this one. The US Govt claims there is NO video footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon, yet there are dozens of cameras around the Pentagon. Imagine that. AND, the FBI confiscated TWO sets of video from the Motel and gas station across the street. Imagine that.

Fact is this, the hole is WAY too small for a 747 to fit into, in regards to the Pentagon.

Actually, they do, but they work sporadically. Besides, phone operators reported conversations they had with Flight 93 passengers during the flight.


Easily rigged at gunpoint? Staged? I dunno....but I dont thin k they work at 30,000 feet do they?

I don't have all the answers, but there's too many inconsistencies with this....I felt that within hours of it happening....

[bvc]

no mention of Able Danger (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=+%22Able+Danger%22&btnG=Search)?

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/weldon100605.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/politics/16cnd-intel.html?ex=1281844800&en=fe1cfb4c7a02fcc9&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Sam!]

E,

I am perfectly willing to accept that the facts as presented by the government are not 100% truthful. But you can accept that without charging the government with killing thousands of people.

[Sam!]

Looks like your theories are a little out of date, E. They've already been easily debunked by a third party, Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1).

[middletree]

I feel this is an easy one. The planes were switched and the people eliminated.

The notion of "they could have done it this way" is not in any way proof or evidence that it was done that way.

Any CNN or compilation clearly shows it, from mulitple angles at that.


Do you have access to CNN footage? What I am saying is that the conspiracy theorists, such as Loose Change, could easily have doctored CNN footage, and you have no way of knowing it.

Was this into the Pentagon or WTC?...I have heard witnesses speak of seeing different things for the Pentagon.


It was a janitor working on top of a building in Washington DC. The plane was over his head and he saw it hit the building. He was very clear that it was a commercial airliner.


ALSO! I forgot this one. The US Govt claims there is NO video footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon, yet there are dozens of cameras around the Pentagon. Imagine that. AND, the FBI confiscated TWO sets of video from the Motel and gas station across the street. Imagine that.

Fact is this, the hole is WAY too small for a 747 to fit into, in regards to the Pentagon.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

[clemsontigers23]

I think middletree has pretty much debunked your conspiracy theories. The fact that countless families lost loved ones is enough for me. I've also talked to a guy who saw the 747 fly over his head into the Pentagon. We were attacked by terrorists. Osama himself said he did it. The guys in Al Qaeda took responsibility and they're proud of it. We're dealing with radical Muslim terrorists, not our government.

[Martyred]

E,

even if you were correct about your conspiracy theory (Which I don't think you are)... Why would our govt. do it????

[middletree]

Osama himself said he did it. The guys in Al Qaeda took responsibility and they're proud of it.

Excellent point.

[Evanescence]

First off, its not a THEORY. Its a very real possibility. Facts and inconsistencies have been presented and witnesses surpressed. There are a LOT of unanswered questions. This makes it a conspiracy possibility.

Secondly, if you try hard enough you can bunk and de-bunk just about anything you want. There are some things I've seen that are quite a stretch.....just dumb coincidences or mis-understandings, perhaps. Such as the comment my Silverstein about "lets just pull it." Who really knows what he meant.

But the pics and footage....by the way I do indeed have several compilations by news agencies here that DO line up with the footage on the videos....anyway, to me, these pics and Video footage from that day show several....actually many, things that just don't line up.

One example is this. A fire in a Philly skyscraper....that was built very similar to the WTC burned for almost 20 hours under intense heat and never wavered. Yet, the North tower collapsed just 20 sum minutes after it was hit.

Now, I'm no rocket scientist but my experience with fuels and effecient burning is quite extensive. Those fires were clearly oxygen starved....meaning they had more fuel than air. They burned rich. A rich burn is a COLD fire...its not real hot. The black smoke clearly shows that. In fact, people were hanging out the windows of the holes where the planes hit. Thats documented. There wasn't enough heat to fatigue the steel. Not by a long shot and not in 20 minutes. They were carefully brought down by demolition.

I know its crazy as heck to think how it could be pulled off, but with the right amount of intimidation and threats, anything is possible. IMO.

I didn't see Loose Change....but will with an open mind, looking for bogus claims...

Good work BVC, thats what we need to do is dig deep and prove what happened one way or another for ourselves. We can't trust our own Govt to police and investigate themselves....non-partisan or not.

Why perpetrate this someone asked? Who knows. Wolrd dominance....NWO, westernize the Middle East....i dunno. I jsut know there's too many unanswered questions and Popular mechanics isn't going to change my mind. That could have easily been swayed by the people who did it.

Lastly, we're all entitled to scoff, thats cool and all. But remember Operation Northwoods. In 1962, our own Govt planned attacks with unmanned aircraft....INTO BUILDINGS, as a means to invade Cuba by blaming it on them. Imagine that....40 years ago. And it could not happen now?

[Sam!]

Ockham's razor, Evanescence. Read the 9 page Popular Mechanics piece. If you want to believe the entire staff and the 300 independent folks they interviewed are all being suppressed, go ahead. But I'd like to see your refutation of their points.

[Valpo]

could this have been planned and perpetrated in the nine months the bush administration was in office prior to the attacks? or is the govt enirely in on it together and clinton too was involved in the planning? And if one is looking for world dominance why would they do so with a restriction on years in office, or are we ready to say the american people would have put up with blatant world dominance and what sense does it make to attack the two symbols of us being a super power? The WTC represented our economic and financial superiority and the pentagon is the headquarters for our military which is undoubtedly the strongest in the world. So although weird coincidences may have occurred (as these things always seem to do in well covered tragedies), a simple check into reality shows how utterly stupid and impossible this whole plan would have been. What's next? Nostradamous (sp.) is a true prophet??

[freakysoccer]

Here's my responses to your statements:

1. What would you say to me who as a sixth grader saw, live on tv, a commercial jet hit the second tower? and who witnessed the first one fall?

2. The plane hit, there was an explosion, which caused the towers to become very very hot! The supporting beams reached their melting point and gave in causing the tower to fall.

3. Its called the building falling due to the impact from the towers collapsing.

4. what about people who never arrived at the airport that were on that flight? Also, people had cell phones and called to say their final goodbyes to their loved ones.

5. Cell phones can work below 10,000 feet though can't they?? And planes may shatter but the heat from the fire and explosion of impact could melt wreckage.


I have and open mind as you can tell from the UFO thread; but i'm patriotic enough to not go around and making comments that may potentially hurt someone whose friends or families were killed in the towers, Pentagon, or who stood up to the hijackers and kept them from killing more innocent civilians!!

[Evanescence]

Ockham's razor, Evanescence. Read the 9 page Popular Mechanics piece. If you want to believe the entire staff and the 300 independent folks they interviewed are all being suppressed, go ahead. But I'd like to see your refutation of their points.

Looking now.....

[danbos]

This thread reminds of the movie Cars, where the hippie van says "It's a conspiracy man." :P

[freakysoccer]

Evanescence, i have some questions for you on this subject???

how much weight in explosives would it take to destroy the towers and surrounding buildings?


If not commercial jets then what kind of plane did i see hit the towers on LIVE tv?? and was is it on auto pilot or what crazy person flew into the buildings??

How much time, how many people would it take to plant the explosives??

as far as swaping the planes you can't land a commercial jet anywhere where would you keep it or where and how do you destroy them??? What happened with the wreckage????

Isn't it possible that due to the structural damage from the impact of the plane plus the resulting fire and burning jet fuel that the supporting beams gave in to the thousands of pounds of concrete and metal above it that the structure gave in and collapsed???? Plus, you don't have to get metal at its melting point to make it weak enough you just hot enough to slightly bend.

Exactly what are the sources that you used to come up with your conclusions??????????? if you post some i will be glad to view them.

see if ya can answer those.

[Evanescence]

I read the article.....here it is:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=4

While they make some valid points, it seems like a whole lot of he said, she said and even expectations for us to believe our govt, over facts and/or pics and videos. I'd rather believe the theorists actually, but keeping an open mind, I still see a lot of holes and possibilities for cover ups.

Which brings me to Flight 93. I had some Amish tell me that a whole group of Amish people saw Flight 93 get shot down, explode in mid air and drop out of the sky.

If thats true and they're lying about it, I'm OK with that as it needed to be done....but is a sensitive subject.

To prove or disprove...thats the question. Truth is, if you look hard enough you can find a way to prove or disprove anything. Including God, UFOs and Govt coverups. But to me, I always questioned things with 911 and after looking into it more, am convinced soemthing far worse happened that day. Ruling out terrorism or a private attack, I am leaning toward our very own Govt. I may be wrong, but if I am right, I know some people who will be eating crow...:cool:

[Evanescence]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/content/imageview.cfm?img=http%3A//media.popularmechanics.co m/images/0305911-pentagon-lg.jpg&caption=%3Cspan%20class%3 D%22captionintro%22%3EHOL E%20TRUTH%3A%3C/span%3E%20Flight%2077%27s %20landing%20gear%20punch ed%20a%2012-ft.%20hole%20into%20the%2 0Pentagon%27s%20Ring%20C. %20PHOTOGRAPH%20BY%20DEPA RTMENT%20OF%20DEFENSE

Ok, here's a pic that should raise eyebrows....

This is the pic of the initial crater left in the Pentagon. A short time later it collapsed making a much larger hole. Neither hole would be big enough for a 747 to fit in....no matter what. Even at its largest point,t he crater is only 75 feet wide. So, how does a 70,000 ton plane, 125 feet wide fit into a hole 75 feet wide? The first pics of the crater show the top of the building not even touched. The plane is 150 or so high, why did it not take out the top of the building thats only 50 or so feet high?

The building is made to withstand an attack....yes thats true, but would have SOME damage. This was the smoking gun for me. Eyewitness accounts or not.

If the building blocked the plane, where's the wreckage? There was one small piece found. It was clearly....noticable by looking at it, lighter gauge material than used on a large plane.

A 747 traveling at 400-500 MPH would have made a MUCH bigger hole people. Just look, its right there in front of you!!!!!!!!!

Another page w/the info about the Pentagon:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6

[clemsontigers23]

People lost loved ones on the plane that crashed into Pentagon. E you're being incredibly insensitive to those who lost husbands, wives, parents, children, grandchildren, etc. in this attack. Terrorists attacked us...they took responsibility for it and they're proud of it. They want to destroy you, me, every Christian, every Jew, America, Israel...they are an organization of hate. I think you should take them a little more seriously than you do.

[cheewiee]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/content/imageview.cfm?img=http%3A//media.popularmechanics.co m/images/0305911-pentagon-lg.jpg&caption=%3Cspan%20class%3 D%22captionintro%22%3EHOL E%20TRUTH%3A%3C/span%3E%20Flight%2077%27s %20landing%20gear%20punch ed%20a%2012-ft.%20hole%20into%20the%2 0Pentagon%27s%20Ring%20C. %20PHOTOGRAPH%20BY%20DEPA RTMENT%20OF%20DEFENSE

Ok, here's a pic that should raise eyebrows....

This is the pic of the initial crater left in the Pentagon. A short time later it collapsed making a much larger hole. Neither hole would be big enough for a 747 to fit in....no matter what. Even at its largest point,t he crater is only 75 feet wide. So, how does a 70,000 ton plane, 125 feet wide fit into a hole 75 feet wide? The first pics of the crater show the top of the building not even touched. The plane is 150 or so high, why did it not take out the top of the building thats only 50 or so feet high?

The building is made to withstand an attack....yes thats true, but would have SOME damage. This was the smoking gun for me. Eyewitness accounts or not.

If the building blocked the plane, where's the wreckage? There was one small piece found. It was clearly....noticable by looking at it, lighter gauge material than used on a large plane.

A 747 traveling at 400-500 MPH would have made a MUCH bigger hole people. Just look, its right there in front of you!!!!!!!!!

Another page w/the info about the Pentagon:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6

The text in the page you quote here states some contrary statements to what you are arguing Ev...

[Whiteheart]

I don't wanna get into the theories of what happened. I always look at these things with an open mind though. I will say that the way the towers fell looked very 'clean'

But anyhoo...

One thing thing is that a Boeing 767....Military re-fueling plane looks identical to a 747.

I would to disagree. A 767 looks nothing like a 747. If nothing else...a 747 has 4 engines and a 767 has two. Besides..I thought it was a 757 that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon.

Here are some schematics for comparisons. Here you will see that a 757 and/or a 767 would be VERY hard to confuse with a 747.

[Sam!]

E, the picture you reference of the hole is from what I understnad a secondary hole. It's easy to "prove" a lot of these theories when you look at a subset of pictures, a subset of data. PM looked at all of this with an open mind and found independent people who could have easily made themselves a lot of money by simply calling out the status quo. Instead they were honest and spoke what is to them, just good science. That's why I posted the PM article in the first place. It I believe addresses each of your myths and provides a more sensible conclusion, without assuming the gov't is right. You've said you always questioned the events surrounding 9/11, isn't that going into this with the same kind of bias (just differently-oriented) that you attribute to us?

[Evanescence]

I don't wanna get into the theories of what happened. I always look at these things with an open mind though. I will say that the way the towers fell looked very 'clean'

But anyhoo...



I would to disagree. A 767 looks nothing like a 747. If nothing else...a 747 has 4 engines and a 767 has two. Besides..I thought it was a 757 that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon.

Here are some schematics for comparisons. Here you will see that a 757 and/or a 767 would be VERY hard to confuse with a 747.

Good job with the pics...

Well, the pics I saw where much more closer looking. They both were twin engine planes, but supposedly thru analysis they are different than the ones that we were told hit. There's a lot of back and forth surmising etc etc on this part. That much I will admit.

One other thing. The clean, sweeping turns that these planes made would be tough for ANY pilot...much less a couple of rag-heads with almost no training. There were many pilots that said there's no way an inexperienced pilot....a pilot with hardly any seat time, could do this. Their instructors said they were amazed they could fly.

As for Mr. Clemson23 comment about disrespect. Its disrespectful NOT to question our president and government. Its un-patriotic NOT to question, challenge and look into our officals, president and govt. You see, this is what they want. They want and have recieved the great division. And its core is among Christians. No good, outstanding, conservative, republican Christian would entertain the notion that our Pres and VP are crooks. Much less behind this. There is such a clear division among Americans that we'll argue among ourselves about politics but forget about the inconsistencies right in front of our faces. We'll defend our heros...our politicians to the end....but forget about the constitution, our rights and liberties.

The great divide is in place. Only a select few dare to cross the line and challenge and question our officials, even though we clearly say we don't trust them. We're shocked when we hear of a preacher gone astray, or a wife or husband that cheated, but will scoff at the idea of our govt or officals being corrupt. Ever been cheated on? Duped by a scam? Lied to by someone you never expected? If that can happen, why not soemthing on a larger scale?

Its our RIGHT to challenge Govt....and I will excersize that, whether is offends or not. The future of America is at stake.

Thank you, good night... :D

[clemsontigers23]

It is certainly your right, and I was not saying it was disrespectful to challenge our government. It IS disrespectful, however, to disrespect those who lost loved ones by discounting what really happened to them, that being they were killed by terrorists.

I don't mind if you question the president. I don't agree with him on everything, like the Palestinians getting some of the Promised Land. However, he is a Christian man who has made mistakes yet has fought for Christian values and has ensured with the Supreme Court appointments that our values will remain intact for the most part. He stands up for Christ and that is something honorable. He is your brother in Christ. Show him grace, just as you told me to do, and realize that everyone makes mistakes. I can tell you, if you had a liberal in office, homosexuality would be rampant and legal, drugs would be legal, and baby killing for any reason would be legal. I for one am proud to have a Christian man running this nation. We could use more like him, and unfortunately, it seems our values could be assaulted starting in 2008.

[Evanescence]

E, the picture you reference of the hole is from what I understnad a secondary hole. It's easy to "prove" a lot of these theories when you look at a subset of pictures, a subset of data. PM looked at all of this with an open mind and found independent people who could have easily made themselves a lot of money by simply calling out the status quo. Instead they were honest and spoke what is to them, just good science. That's why I posted the PM article in the first place. It I believe addresses each of your myths and provides a more sensible conclusion, without assuming the gov't is right. You've said you always questioned the events surrounding 9/11, isn't that going into this with the same kind of bias (just differently-oriented) that you attribute to us?


Sam, the Truth Movement hasn't proved anything...and neither has PM or our Govt. There are very few PROOFS with this...only what we have been told. Told thru our Govt controlled media and the higher ups in Washington, thru these channels.

Just because I questioned a few things didn't mean i formed a final opinion. And I am not saying ya'll are biased....and am OK with you guys scoffing or heck, even thinking I'm crazy. Based on my rants here, ya'll thought that anyway...LOL...

I'm just saying i feel there are way too many coincidences and inconsistencies here....

The Pentagon. Look into that deeper. There is no way in hell a jet liner of any size hit that building and made a hole that small...or even larger. It'd be massive.

BTW- Where's the surveliiance footage? Imagine that, all those cameras and theres no footage. Not even from two businesses with cameras pointed right across the street. Oh, thats right...the FBI took them. Imagine that.

[Evanescence]

It is certainly your right, and I was not saying it was disrespectful to challenge our government. It IS disrespectful, however, to disrespect those who lost loved ones by discounting what really happened to them, that being they were killed by terrorists.

I don't mind if you question the president. I don't agree with him on everything, like the Palestinians getting some of the Promised Land. However, he is a Christian man who has made mistakes yet has fought for Christian values and has ensured with the Supreme Court appointments that our values will remain intact for the most part. He stands up for Christ and that is something honorable. He is your brother in Christ. Show him grace, just as you told me to do, and realize that everyone makes mistakes. I can tell you, if you had a liberal in office, homosexuality would be rampant and legal, drugs would be legal, and baby killing for any reason would be legal. I for one am proud to have a Christian man running this nation. We could use more like him, and unfortunately, it seems our values could be assaulted starting in 2008.


You are judging a man you do not know !!!!!!!

You don't know him, you only know what you've been taught and shown....

You can judge a man's heart you don't know and never met?

[danbos]

The Pentagon. Look into that deeper. There is no way in hell a jet liner of any size hit that building and made a hole that small...or even larger. It'd be massive.


Okay, so a jet liner hits a big building...think about it, it's not going to make just one nice neat hole...there's going to be debris. How do you know that hole in the picture wasn't a little further down the wall, caused by, say, a piece of the wing that flew off. The picture itself should throw up red flags immediately. It makes a careful point to include only that hole, not showing anything else around it, which means we don't know if there was another bigger hole right next to it, which layer of the pentagon this is, or even if this is the Pentagon...a tad suspicious.

[clemsontigers23]

The man says he's a Christian...I have no reason to not believe him. If a person tells me they're a Christian, am I supposed to be skeptical? That doesn't make any sense. I'm not judging his heart, but based on what I know about him and what he has done, he has fought for Christian values and he's not a man who is afraid to lead the country in prayer. The man professes to believe in Christ as his Savior, so why shouldn't I believe him? Wouldn't it be judgmental to NOT believe him? To judge him as NOT being a Christian, even though he professes to be one?

[Evanescence]

The man says he's a Christian...I have no reason to not believe him. If a person tells me they're a Christian, am I supposed to be skeptical? That doesn't make any sense. I'm not judging his heart, but based on what I know about him and what he has done, he has fought for Christian values and he's not a man who is afraid to lead the country in prayer. The man professes to believe in Christ as his Savior, so why shouldn't I believe him? Wouldn't it be judgmental to NOT believe him? To judge him as NOT being a Christian, even though he professes to be one?

I believe...and may be wrong, we have the right to judge our leaders...pastors and officials. You do as you wish, but I judge on performance...over all, not what the general consensus says or especially what they say about themselves.

I have often said, "I think" or "I Believe" Bush and Cheney have wrong agendas or sinister intentions....not that I KNOW that he or they are. Look at how many people profess to know God and yet are clearly lost or even crooks. We're in the last days man, we must be careful who we exalt.....it may be the anti-christ!!!

*Disclaimer* And, no I'm not saying Bush is the anti-christ..

[clemsontigers23]

I agree with you. But the Bible also says to respect authority because He is the One who put these people in power. Unless Bush tells me I need to get a mark in order to get food, I don't think he's anything to worry about. If I'm not mistaken, the anti-Christ will be one who blasphemes the name of Christ, not uplift it as our president has done. I have no reason to believe Bush has a sinister agenda. Cheney is another matter. He is one of the stupidest people I've ever heard in office. I support Bush and I understand I'm in the minority, but if I always followed the crowd I would be pretty lost.

[Sam!]

Just because I questioned a few things didn't mean i formed a final opinion.

"It's official...I now believe...."

[Evanescence]

I agree with you. But the Bible also says to respect authority because He is the One who put these people in power. Unless Bush tells me I need to get a mark in order to get food, I don't think he's anything to worry about. If I'm not mistaken, the anti-Christ will be one who blasphemes the name of Christ, not uplift it as our president has done. I have no reason to believe Bush has a sinister agenda. Cheney is another matter. He is one of the stupidest people I've ever heard in office. I support Bush and I understand I'm in the minority, but if I always followed the crowd I would be pretty lost.

I understand people defend and support Bush but I simply cannot. I won't get into it but I will address one thing.

The pro-life issue:

Bush has done great things to stop Abortion. God only knows his true intentions...

But pro-life. No way. There are 300,000 to 600,000 estimated innocent Iraqi lives, several thousand American troops killed and 25,000+ mamed and wounded American troops. Iraqi women and young girls are prostituting themselves in Syria and Iran. All this is on the hands of our president...all because HE THOUGHT they should have democracy. He started as war on bogus terms...war with a country that did NOTHING to us. We're better off without Saddam but the fact remains, those deaths and injuries are on the head and hands of Bush.

So, I say this: Bush=Anti-Abortion but not Pro-life

Those deaths tell the tale for me...

[Evanescence]

Just because I questioned a few things didn't mean i formed a final opinion.

"It's official...I now believe...."

Sam, you're getting as bad as the conspiracy wackos.....context my friend, context.

Let's review:

I said:

Just because I questioned a few things didn't mean i formed a final opinion. And I am not saying ya'll are biased....and am OK with you guys scoffing or heck, even thinking I'm crazy. Based on my rants here, ya'll thought that anyway...LOL...


Now, that was in regards to your original question...about me looking at this with a biased eye. The answer. I ORIGINALLY....previously, did not form a final opinion. Check all my original posts on this, I NEVER said I believed it or was convinced. I am now. Then and now are two different things.

Good try though :D

[clemsontigers23]

I understand people defend and support Bush but I simply cannot. I won't get into it but I will address one thing.

The pro-life issue:

Bush has done great things to stop Abortion. God only knows his true intentions...

But pro-life. No way. There are 300,000 to 600,000 estimated innocent Iraqi lives, several thousand American troops killed and 25,000+ mamed and wounded American troops. Iraqi women and young girls are prostituting themselves in Syria and Iran. All this is on the hands of our president...all because HE THOUGHT they should have democracy. He started as war on bogus terms...war with a country that did NOTHING to us. We're better off without Saddam but the fact remains, those deaths and injuries are on the head and hands of Bush.

So, I say this: Bush=Anti-Abortion but not Pro-life

Those deaths tell the tale for me...


I agree many lives have been lost, but I hope and pray that it will all be worth it.

[middletree]

I can tell you, if you had a liberal in office, homosexuality would be rampant and legal,
Errr.... not to be nitpicky, but homosexuality is rampant and legal. Has been for years.

[clemsontigers23]

Errr.... not to be nitpicky, but homosexuality is rampant and legal. Has been for years.

You know what I mean lol. The sanctity of marriage would be destroyed. Is that better? ;)

[Evanescence]

The notion that Dems are evil, liberal and have no morals is part of the problem.....just like saying that all Reps are Jesus freaks, conservative and don't care about he environment...

Some foolish, whacked out people were depressed and distraught that Dems took over in Congress. They really think the country will go down hill morally now.

That mentality is part of the Great Division. Us and Them. Good vs Evil. Etc etc....

We're all Americans and need to bond together for the common good. Not get hung up on one or two issues that divide. Lets concentrate on getting our rights back and put these politicians and their lobbyist friends in their place. UNDER us the people...

[River]

We're all Americans and need to bond together for the common good. Not get hung up on one or two issues that divide. Lets concentrate on getting our rights back and put these politicians and their lobbyist friends in their place. UNDER us the people...

That'll never happen. Our government was set up to give us the Illusion of power, but not the real thing. We'd have to start our government from scratch... and our government won't allow that.

[clemsontigers23]

The notion that Dems are evil, liberal and have no morals is part of the problem.....just like saying that all Reps are Jesus freaks, conservative and don't care about he environment...

Some foolish, whacked out people were depressed and distraught that Dems took over in Congress. They really think the country will go down hill morally now.

That mentality is part of the Great Division. Us and Them. Good vs Evil. Etc etc....

We're all Americans and need to bond together for the common good. Not get hung up on one or two issues that divide. Lets concentrate on getting our rights back and put these politicians and their lobbyist friends in their place. UNDER us the people...

The problem is, every liberal running for president and nearly every liberal who ran for Congress describe themselves as being pro-gay, pro-baby killing, and pro-gun control. Some liberals are even in favor of legalizing marijuana. Even the Christian liberal, Obama, supports gay marriage, baby killing, etc. The reason why we're so divided is liberals have a hatred for conservatives and conservatives are concerned with the moral values that liberals are going to destroy if they get a liberal in the White House.

[Evanescence]

The problem is, every liberal running for president and nearly every liberal who ran for Congress describe themselves as being pro-gay, pro-baby killing, and pro-gun control. Some liberals are even in favor of legalizing marijuana. Even the Christian liberal, Obama, supports gay marriage, baby killing, etc. The reason why we're so divided is liberals have a hatred for conservatives and conservatives are concerned with the moral values that liberals are going to destroy if they get a liberal in the White House.

Anyone lined up with Lobbyists and insider traders are immoral....

98% of all politicians are in that group....

They're all liberals....just different colors....

[Sam!]

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying when you stated that you hadn't formed an opinion. Got it.

That still leads me to the bias issue. It's true, most of us look at your evidence from the perspective that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, and our government is at least essentially telling the truth. That's the "lens" we are looking through, and it affects not just our final decision but how we process the information. Your "lens" is one that believes the government is not being straightforward with the American public. Whether you made an official proclamation as to your opinion, the process you took to get here was through a different filter, a different lens, a different bias, however you want to look at it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just a different perspective.

[Evanescence]

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying when you stated that you hadn't formed an opinion. Got it.

That still leads me to the bias issue. It's true, most of us look at your evidence from the perspective that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, and our government is at least essentially telling the truth. That's the "lens" we are looking through, and it affects not just our final decision but how we process the information. Your "lens" is one that believes the government is not being straightforward with the American public. Whether you made an official proclamation as to your opinion, the process you took to get here was through a different filter, a different lens, a different bias, however you want to look at it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just a different perspective.

Agreed!

Remember this fact:

None of us have any real proof either way. Its all heresay and what we've been shown....on BOTH sides. The only real fact is that planes crashed and people died. Thats all. Truthfully, the rest are all theories...on both sides of this debate.

[Evanescence]

I'm not going to keep dragging this back up again just to get it going, but today I was doing some thinking....(and yes, i do think )

Some have said that the Pentagon is an enormously strong building, built to withstand attacks and the like. Understood....to what extent, I don't know, but understood. But therein COULD lie the smoking gun.

Lets put all hearsay aside. Lets also put any theories on the WTCs and Building 7 aside.

Now, if a 757 hit a STRONG building, such as the Pentagon, which is built to deflect an attack, there'd be wreckage everywhere. There was virtually none. CNN and other media were there long before the roof collapsed and there was nothing anywhere. Later, a few small pieces where found by my goodness, if a 757 hit at 400 MPH and got deflected...even just a little bit, there'd be parts strewn about for hundreds of feet. Nothing.

The roof collapsed from the fire, and the largest part of the hole was about 75 feet wide and 75 feet tall. A 757 is 125 wide with two HUGE engines on it. Its also 45 feet tall. Why is the hole so small? Why was the roof still intact? Windows still intact? Desks and work are still intact?

Some surmise a drone, Global Hawk hit....some say a Cruise Missle. To me, there's no way a jet airliner hit.

Another thing that send up a red flag. No skid marks. They claim the pilot flew a few feet above the ground and struck the Pentagon at the base of the building and lawn. This while navigating through 50-60 feet lights and signs on the freeway just near the Pentagon. An -unexperienced pilot no less. Bull. No way.

So, here's how I see it. Four tragedies happened, all blaimed on one group...one tragedy. But, if there's one major anomoly or serious inconsistencies, they ALL tie in together. If we can say, "yeah, well the Pentagon thing does seem fishy." Then we can say the whole thing stinks.

Its just like the magician says, "Are you watching closely?"

Then your watch or wallet is gone. The tragedy and media frenzy....coupled with the insane idea that this could happen, clouds the judgement. But history, real pictures and un-doctored video footage tell a different story. This has been shown in history many times.

I'm still researching though...:cool:

[clemsontigers23]

E, the terrorists went to flight school for YEARS preparing for this attack. Give it up. Countless lives were lost and you're spewing conspiracy theories. Al Qaeda did it, took responsibility for it, and are bragging about it to this day. How do you know there no pieces of wreckage? Were you THERE? NO! There's also the possibility that the wreckage was INCINERATED.

[Evanescence]

Before closing, I have two more comments to all.

1. Forget about the 911 Conspiracy Theories and research, Operation Northwoods. It is common knowledge, disclosed by our very own government, that during the Cuban Missle crisis, the US Govt planned and/or conspired to use un-manned drone aircraft to strike US cities and/or buildings...then blame it on the Cubans, as a pre-text to war. This as well as a few other unscrupulous plans during this time are common knowledge.

2. Time have changed. Theodore Roselvelt said this; "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or government or that we should stand by him, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile but is morally treasonable to the American people.

My how times have changed...:mad:

[Evanescence]

E, the terrorists went to flight school for YEARS preparing for this attack. Give it up. Countless lives were lost and you're spewing conspiracy theories. Al Qaeda did it, took responsibility for it, and are bragging about it to this day. How do you know there no pieces of wreckage? Were you THERE? NO! There's also the possibility that the wreckage was INCINERATED.

Brother Clemson, you seem to always want to dance with the Big E...:cool:

You don't know anymore than I do who, what, when or how the supposed terrorists went to flight school. If we're talking heresay, more than one of their supposed instructors stated that it was a miracle they could fly at all. Further, pilots both current and retired stated that there is no way an inexperienced pilot could do the sweeps into the WTC.

We were told Al Qaeda did it....shown to us by our media. More heresay.

Wreckage? That's the smoking gun at the Pentagon. There are literally dozens of videos....hours of footage... after the crash as well as piles of pics. There is nothing except one small wheel and a small junk of sheeting that looks like tin foil.

Incinerated? LMAO. Do you know why a Pratt and Whitney or GE Jet engine costs over 1 Million Dollars? Because it is filled with prescious metals. Titanium, Aircraft Steel, Inconel, Brass and Bronze to name a few. Do you have any idea how hot it would have to be to melt away that stuff? Pics clearly show books, desks, chairs etc etc still intact right inside the walls of the Pentagon.

I know a little about prescious metals and fabricating materials from my racing and metal fabricating days. Scrap men buy up old Turbines...whole warehouses full of them for scrap, then strip them down and sell the metals. I never built or maintained a Turbine or jet, But I know people who have and know whats in them. The same with metal materials.

Countless lives were lost and many people....myself now included feel that there are unanswered questions. It would be completely disrespectful to those victims...and our fellow Americans, to sit on our laurels and not investigate this. Thousands of people worldwide, with all sorts of degrees and qualifications are doing just that now. The proof though is in the pudding...in the very pics and vids they fed us.

Are you watching closely? :cool:

[clemsontigers23]

1. Forget about the 911 Conspiracy Theories and research, Operation Northwoods. It is common knowledge, disclosed by our very own government, that during the Cuban Missle crisis, the US Govt planned and/or conspired to use un-manned drone aircraft to strike US cities and/or buildings...then blame it on the Cubans, as a pre-text to war. This as well as a few other unscrupulous plans during this time are common knowledge.

No one's denying that we did this and it certainly supports your theory, but the main difference here is the terrorists actually took responsibility for it and are PROUD OF IT. How can you explain the countless videos that come out every week of radical Muslims wanting to DESTROY us? How can you explain the countless lives that were lost on that day? How can you explain eyewitness accounts that say they saw the plane crash into the Pentagon? I REALLY want to hear this, and not any of this "they were taken somewhere else and killed" crap because there is cold hard evidence that terrorists hijacked each plane and if it hadn't been for the heroic efforts of the passengers on Flight 93 the White House would have been destroyed and innocent lives LOST. Osama himself, the perpetrator of the whole thing, said this.

2. Time have changed. Theodore Roselvelt said this; "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or government or that we should stand by him, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile but is morally treasonable to the American people.

My how times have changed...:mad:

I stand by our president because he is a Christian man who has stood up for Christian values, values that are valued by God Himself and that are very valuable to those who value them. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, such as his guest worker program, his support of a Palestinian state on God's holy land, and I'm not even sure about the Iraq War. What I AM sure about is WE were ATTACKED by radical Muslim TERRORISTS and THEY THEMSELVES have said they did it and are PROUD OF IT. They have said they want to DO IT AGAIN! And they are LOVING this DIVISION they have CAUSED! It's what they intended to do. Now there are people who don't even believe they did it. The terrorists must be THRILLED.

Brother Clemson, you seem to always want to dance with the Big E...

You don't know anymore than I do who, what, when or how the supposed terrorists went to flight school. If we're talking heresay, more than one of their supposed instructors stated that it was a miracle they could fly at all. Further, pilots both current and retired stated that there is no way an inexperienced pilot could do the sweeps into the WTC.

An interesting question, but like you said, it's heresay. Obviously, the terrorists found a way and there is security footage showing the terrorists getting on the plane. There are eyewitness accounts of how they all hijacked the plane, and somehow were able to get the planes into the World Trade Centers, Pentagon, and thankfully only into a field in Pennsylvania thanks to the heroes of Flight 93.

We were told Al Qaeda did it....shown to us by our media. More heresay.

We were told my the media and by Al Qaeda themselves that they did it. They were bragging about it. Ever see Osama's video right after the attacks? He thought he was really something and claimed full responsibility for the attacks and told us why he did them...because he hates Western culture, and you.

Wreckage? That's the smoking gun at the Pentagon. There are literally dozens of videos....hours of footage... after the crash as well as piles of pics. There is nothing except one small wheel and a small junk of sheeting that looks like tin foil.

One thing I've heard about this is the videos are not real-time...they take snapshots and it's quite possible the crash happened in between the snapshots considering how fast the plane was coming in.

Incinerated? LMAO. Do you know why a Pratt and Whitney or GE Jet engine costs over 1 Million Dollars? Because it is filled with prescious metals. Titanium, Aircraft Steel, Inconel, Brass and Bronze to name a few. Do you have any idea how hot it would have to be to melt away that stuff? Pics clearly show books, desks, chairs etc etc still intact right inside the walls of the Pentagon.

I know a little about prescious metals and fabricating materials from my racing and metal fabricating days. Scrap men buy up old Turbines...whole warehouses full of them for scrap, then strip them down and sell the metals. I never built or maintained a Turbine or jet, But I know people who have and know whats in them. The same with metal materials.

I can't argue with you there. It was merely a suggestion. However, an explosion of that magnitude could do that.

Countless lives were loss and many people....myself now included feel that there are unanswered questions. It would be completely disrespectful to those victims to sit on our laurels and not investigate this. Thousands of people worldwide, with all sorts of degrees and qualifications are doing just that now. The proof though is in the pudding...in the very pics and vids they fed us.

Are you watching closely?

Yes, I've watched closely the countless videos of Muslim extremists threatening to kill us and launch another attack. Muslim extremists burning American flags, beheading American citizens, bodies of American soldiers seen piled up in the streets. There's all kinds of radical Muslim propaganda on YouTube, terrorists showing other terrorists killing American soldiers. Rants against America and all of Western culture. That's what I'm watching.

[Evanescence]

No one's denying that we did this and it certainly supports your theory, but the main difference here is the terrorists actually took responsibility for it and are PROUD OF IT. How can you explain the countless videos that come out every week of radical Muslims wanting to DESTROY us? How can you explain the countless lives that were lost on that day? How can you explain eyewitness accounts that say they saw the plane crash into the Pentagon? I REALLY want to hear this, and not any of this "they were taken somewhere else and killed" crap because there is cold hard evidence that terrorists hijacked each plane and if it hadn't been for the heroic efforts of the passengers on Flight 93 the White House would have been destroyed and innocent lives LOST. Osama himself, the perpetrator of the whole thing, said this.


You can't prove that the terrorists took responsibility anymore than I can't prove it. I can't prove any of these Conspiracy Possibilities anymore than you can prove that terrorists did it. We are both going by what we've been told and shown. Sure some Muslims wnat to kill us, but thats not the issue. The issue is the inconsistencies that many agree with in many credible circles. For every person who sticks by the 911 story 'cause they saw this or that, there's another credible person who disputes it because of what they saw. There are eyewitness accounts on BOTH sides of this debate.

Yes, I've watched closely the countless videos of Muslim extremists threatening to kill us and launch another attack. Muslim extremists burning American flags, beheading American citizens, bodies of American soldiers seen piled up in the streets. There's all kinds of radical Muslim propaganda on YouTube, terrorists showing other terrorists killing American soldiers. Rants against America and all of Western culture. That's what I'm watching.


That has nothing to do with these inconsistencies...

We're beating a dead horse here. I didn't want to post this to forcefeed anyone...or even debate it. Just to make a statement which I likley will not change my opinion on anytime soon. You seem VERY passionate about dismissing this, so do some research...get a video or book and look into it. There will always be disagreements and arguments...some even worse than this....perhaps debates on God....and we always have to be ready to research and dig deep into things in order to have the truth exposed. You really can't dismiss something until you've researched it. If you scoff t soemthing you nothing about, you'll look like a complete twirp. trust me, I know. Take care and good luck.

Oh, one last thing.....

Are you watching closely? Abra-cadabra...:cool:

[kiwisongbird]

If the US government spent 40 million dollars on investigating a president's private (well NOT so private) life, I'm sure they could throw a few million around to cover up anything they wanted to!

With regard to judging or not judging our leaders, in the Word it says by their fruit you will know them... ask almost any person in the world who is NOT a full on patriotic American what Mr B's fruit is and I'm sure they would not be very complimentary.

As a non-American follower of Jesus from a country that is not into patriotism (New Zealand) and an outside observer I need to make this comment from the bottom of my heart...

Please, patriotic American Christians, please be followers of Jesus, BEFORE you are American, BEFORE you are patriotic, BEFORE you are any particular political party.

Please don't just believe something because someone says it - including your pastor or your president.

Love you all and have been enjoying reading all this stuff, thanks all,
Love, Sharon :)

[clemsontigers23]

If the US government spent 40 million dollars on investigating a president's private (well NOT so private) life, I'm sure they could throw a few million around to cover up anything they wanted to!

With regard to judging or not judging our leaders, in the Word it says by their fruit you will know them... ask almost any person in the world who is NOT a full on patriotic American what Mr B's fruit is and I'm sure they would not be very complimentary.

As a non-American follower of Jesus from a country that is not into patriotism (New Zealand) and an outside observer I need to make this comment from the bottom of my heart...

Please, patriotic American Christians, please be followers of Jesus, BEFORE you are American, BEFORE you are patriotic, BEFORE you are any particular political party.

Please don't just believe something because someone says it - including your pastor or your president.

Love you all and have been enjoying reading all this stuff, thanks all,
Love, Sharon :)

I for one support Bush as a brother in Christ. He is a believer, I know he is. I agree wholeheartedly that we should put Jesus before America and I believe America is going down a road where eventually the nation will forget God and turn away from Him and that will eventually lead to our destruction. I think this starts in 2008 if a democratic president is elected, one who has pledged to legalize gay marriage, to legalize baby killing even if a teenage girl simply doesn't want it, eventually to legalize drugs such as marijuana. A Democratic president in the White House will mean an assault on Christian values in America. For the MOMENT, we have a CHRISTIAN president who has stood up and fought for Christian values in the face of unbelievers criticizing him. I believe one reason why people hate him is because he's a Christian and he fights for Christian values. I don't agree with him on everything, but I believe God appointed him as our president for a reason. The Bible itself says to respect authority and that God is the one who puts people in office.

[blacksheep]

Evan seems to constantly use the final days as a pretext to deciphering the goings on in the world. Now, don't get me wrong, I too believe that Christ will return, perhaps tomorrow or perhaps a million years from now. However, Evan, you seem to bash people you really don't know with THEORIES, not proven facts, simply because you interpret these theories through a literal reading of Revelations and slap a time value of "soon" on it all. The first generation Christian Church, in my opinion and others, were fully convinced that Christ was to return within their lifetime. They, or at least the ones who thought that way, were proven to be wrong. So what if you are?

With regard to judging or not judging our leaders, in the Word it says by their fruit you will know them... ask almost any person in the world who is NOT a full on patriotic American what Mr B's fruit is and I'm sure they would not be very complimentary.


I've known a few kiwis in my day and respect the lot of them and I would love to visit your beautiful country some time. Kiwi, Don't think you can know a person simply because they are a public figure and don't think you can get away making a statement like that without throwing in what you think "Mr. B's" fruit is.

[mcgreen311]

You can't prove that the terrorists took responsibility anymore than I can't prove it. I can't prove any of these Conspiracy Possibilities anymore than you can prove that terrorists did it. We are both going by what we've been told and shown. Sure some Muslims wnat to kill us, but thats not the issue. The issue is the inconsistencies that many agree with in many credible circles. For every person who sticks by the 911 story 'cause they saw this or that, there's another credible person who disputes it because of what they saw. There are eyewitness accounts on BOTH sides of this debate.



E, you are so post-structuralist.:)

[Evanescence]

I for one support Bush as a brother in Christ. He is a believer, I know he is. I agree wholeheartedly that we should put Jesus before America and I believe America is going down a road where eventually the nation will forget God and turn away from Him and that will eventually lead to our destruction. I think this starts in 2008 if a democratic president is elected, one who has pledged to legalize gay marriage, to legalize baby killing even if a teenage girl simply doesn't want it, eventually to legalize drugs such as marijuana. A Democratic president in the White House will mean an assault on Christian values in America. For the MOMENT, we have a CHRISTIAN president who has stood up and fought for Christian values in the face of unbelievers criticizing him. I believe one reason why people hate him is because he's a Christian and he fights for Christian values. I don't agree with him on everything, but I believe God appointed him as our president for a reason. The Bible itself says to respect authority and that God is the one who puts people in office.

I agree with you that some DEMS are interested in doing these things, you're still using blanket statements and hung up on the idea that a REP president will make the world a better place and will be guided by the hand of God. Thats a deception....and a mentality you will likley stick to for a while.

Evan seems to constantly use the final days as a pretext to deciphering the goings on in the world. Now, don't get me wrong, I too believe that Christ will return, perhaps tomorrow or perhaps a million years from now. However, Evan, you seem to bash people you really don't know with THEORIES, not proven facts, simply because you interpret these theories through a literal reading of Revelations and slap a time value of "soon" on it all. The first generation Christian Church, in my opinion and others, were fully convinced that Christ was to return within their lifetime. They, or at least the ones who thought that way, were proven to be wrong. So what if you are?



Incorrect. I merely said that if you believe we are CLOSE to...or near the end times, you have to admit that we could easily be decieved....perhaps even by a so-called, "Christian" person or Govt.

I bash no one....

I am not a Revelation junkie and don't use it for fodder against people who don't believe what I believe. My thoughts and beliefs on the Catholic church and the end times are VERY strong, yet I keep this to myself.

Only a fool would deny the extreme rate of technology and lining up with some scripture in todays age. This along with the problems on a world wide scale, should send red flags. I have no idea when the end may come...and neither does anyone else.

The bottom line is this. A lot of credible, expert and well educated people from many walks of life and occupations believe we were lied to about 911. Further, there are DOZENS, if not hundreds of eye-witnesses that were there and saw various things that don't line up. All heresay aside, un-doctored videos....videos that any schmuck can rent or buy on Ebay show the same thing that us wacky Conspiracy Theorists (I used the word for your pleasure) are showing the world. What they show are obvious inconsistencies and evidence of lying. This makes it a Conspiracy Possibility.

Think I'm BSn? Go to Blockbuster or Ebay and buy a CNN compilation video of 911 and/or magazines from the major media publihsers...Newsweek, Time, People etc etc and look for yourself. I challenge you to find things that go against things in this post. I'll ask it one more time; How does a 757 that weighs 70 tons, with a wingspan of 125 feet and is 45 feet tall, fit into a hole 75 feet by 75 feet? The inner hole only being 15x15.

How is it that one of the most important buildings in the world has no video footage of this tragedy? How could in-experienced pilots do what trained, well seasoned pilots claim they could not?

I'm all ears....:cool:

PS...Were you watching closely? :D

[danbos]

Hey E,

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

I read some of this and it seems to answer most of your questions pretty good from what I could tell. A bit of a hard read with the pictures all messed up...but I thought it looked like someone did a lot of research on this.

[clemsontigers23]

I agree with you that some DEMS are interested in doing these things, you're still using blanket statements and hung up on the idea that a REP president will make the world a better place and will be guided by the hand of God. Thats a deception....and a mentality you will likley stick to for a while.



Incorrect. I merely said that if you believe we are CLOSE to...or near the end times, you have to admit that we could easily be decieved....perhaps even by a so-called, "Christian" person or Govt.

I bash no one....

I am not a Revelation junkie and don't use it for fodder against people who don't believe what I believe. My thoughts and beliefs on the Catholic church and the end times are VERY strong, yet I keep this to myself.

Only a fool would deny the extreme rate of technology and lining up with some scripture in todays age. This along with the problems on a world wide scale, should send red flags. I have no idea when the end may come...and neither does anyone else.

The bottom line is this. A lot of credible, expert and well educated people from many walks of life and occupations believe we were lied to about 911. Further, there are DOZENS, if not hundreds of eye-witnesses that were there and saw various things that don't line up. All heresay aside, un-doctored videos....videos that any schmuck can rent or buy on Ebay show the same thing that us wacky Conspiracy Theorists (I used the word for your pleasure) are showing the world. What they show are obvious inconsistencies and evidence of lying. This makes it a Conspiracy Possibility.

Think I'm BSn? Go to Blockbuster or Ebay and buy a CNN compilation video of 911 and/or magazines from the major media publihsers...Newsweek, Time, People etc etc and look for yourself. I challenge you to find things that go against things in this post. I'll ask it one more time; How does a 757 that weighs 70 tons, with a wingspan of 125 feet and is 45 feet tall, fit into a hole 75 feet by 75 feet? The inner hole only being 15x15.

How is it that one of the most important buildings in the world has no video footage of this tragedy? How could in-experienced pilots do what trained, well seasoned pilots claim they could not?

I'm all ears....:cool:

PS...Were you watching closely? :D


For the record, me and E are both suspicious of the Catholic Church's possible involvement in the end times. We do agree on that.

[Evanescence]

Hey E,

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

I read some of this and it seems to answer most of your questions pretty good from what I could tell. A bit of a hard read with the pictures all messed up...but I thought it looked like someone did a lot of research on this.

This link locked my computer up THREE times....

I hope this isn't some kinda joke....

I will try it again later....

I have cable Internet and had to shut down and re-start 3 times !!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[kiwisongbird]

Evan seems to constantly use the final days as a pretext to deciphering the goings on in the world. Now, don't get me wrong, I too believe that Christ will return, perhaps tomorrow or perhaps a million years from now. However, Evan, you seem to bash people you really don't know with THEORIES, not proven facts, simply because you interpret these theories through a literal reading of Revelations and slap a time value of "soon" on it all. The first generation Christian Church, in my opinion and others, were fully convinced that Christ was to return within their lifetime. They, or at least the ones who thought that way, were proven to be wrong. So what if you are?



I've known a few kiwis in my day and respect the lot of them and I would love to visit your beautiful country some time. Kiwi, Don't think you can know a person simply because they are a public figure and don't think you can get away making a statement like that without throwing in what you think "Mr. B's" fruit is.

Hey, I have to confess I am totally pacifist so my main thing with President Bush's fruit would be what many people inthe world call 'war mongering' - actually it really freaks me out! I respectfully ask you if you would also say to other people how they can know that the president is a Christian just by him being a public figure? (Please, please I am not saying I think the he is not.. merely saying that really it's only God who knows if a public figure is a Christian or not - just cos someone says they are doesn't mean they are)

[kiwisongbird]

The Bible itself says to respect authority and that God is the one who puts people in office.[/QUOTE]


So... then if sadly someone gets voted into office and they support gay marriage (which I hate) abortion (which I hate) legalisation of illegal drugs (which I hate) then would you also respect authortiy because God has put them in office?

personally, that scripture has always been a hard one for me? You know, Saddam???? Hitler????? those guys.... if anyone can help me on this one I'd appreciate it as I would imagine many of you would if someone you don't like gets in as President of the USA...

The Prime Minister of NZ is changing the face of our country - many things, anti-family things have been introduced while she has been in power - but she is God's chosen one for this time in NZ - ouch!

[clemsontigers23]

So... then if sadly someone gets voted into office and they support gay marriage (which I hate) abortion (which I hate) legalisation of illegal drugs (which I hate) then would you also respect authortiy because God has put them in office?

personally, that scripture has always been a hard one for me? You know, Saddam???? Hitler????? those guys.... if anyone can help me on this one I'd appreciate it as I would imagine many of you would if someone you don't like gets in as President of the USA...

The Prime Minister of NZ is changing the face of our country - many things, anti-family things have been introduced while she has been in power - but she is God's chosen one for this time in NZ - ouch!

Actually, you bring up a good point. I will not support a Democratic president who wants to legalize the things you mentioned, but I do support Bush because he has stood against these things.

[Valpo]

so then we have a problem with romans 13? I'd like to see someone have an alternative that can come out of their mouth. remember paul was inspired by the holy spirit. the reason we are to respect authority or whatever is due to the seperation of kingdoms to put it into laymans terms. The world has a kingdom, which is mostly political, and then there is God's Kingdom which is not political but spiritual. And because we are in the world we are to obey authority, but bc of God's Kingdom we are obviously not of the world.

[blacksheep]

Agreed Valpo.

Kiwi, "war mongering"...... for real? Do you have CCN in NZ or maybe the BBC?
I have my own problems with the idea of "total pacifism" if you really mean total.

Catholics? I think you'll find more and more protestant influenced individuals begin to question the Catholic church. Just as I have for many years. So what is your point?

Evan, lets take a stroll in logic. To pull this coup off, here is a short list of what the Prez would have to pull off:

Plan the attack and the post attack actions in less than 9 months.

Pin it on Muslim extremist (who, luckily, had attacked the same buildings before) convincingly enough to make most of the U.S. and congress believe it.

Dupe tens of thousands of eye witnesses to report and repeat what they saw either by money, fear, or magic.

Now, if he or the govt or the catholic church can accomplish these 3 things, then why can't they produce a single WMD which would vindicate them and allow them to continue their diabolical scheming.


Now, for the small hole-big plane controversy. Go buy yourselves a nice strong rifle. Maybe a 30 06 (you know, a thirty aught-six) and shoot a couple rounds through a nice firm substance. Then measure the hole and compare that to the size of the bullet. I guarantee that an unfired bullet won't fit through the hole. When firing into certain other materials the hole will be much larger than the bullet. The same is true for missiles (which might be harder to find at your local Wal Mart, thus the rifle suggestion) and I suspect airliners-although that would be a rather expensive experiment. Point is, because some "expert" measured the hole and the fuselage, discovered they weren't the same size, and then published an article outlining why it's now the president's doing doesn't make it in the least bit true.


Evan, your ideas lack reason and logic. It's all good and well to look at all the possibilities, but it is dishonest to pass it off as anything more.

[kiwisongbird]

I live in Thailand - they have all the different news here if you get cable - we can't afford it.

Um, and I'm probably not a total pacifist - if someone was doing something like Hitler was I don't think I would be - oh but hey stuff like that is happening in Burma (the world often calls it by the name that the military junta -illegal rulers call it) Myanmar...

People are being killed because of their race - women, children as well - soldiers are paid a bounty for abusing women as they may get pregnant and then dilute the race... the democratically elected leader has been under house arrest for many years and they are planning to keep her there until she dies - if the US decided to do something about that I have to confess my views would likely change...

Sorry, totally off track...

My views on 9/11? I haven't much looked into it - but not much would surprise me... there's a whole heap of stuff that goes down in this world that we don't even have a clue about.

I wonder sometimes what would Jesus do? Heal the sick, feed the poor, love our neighbour... all the really hard stuff. :)

[clemsontigers23]

I live in Thailand - they have all the different news here if you get cable - we can't afford it.

Um, and I'm probably not a total pacifist - if someone was doing something like Hitler was I don't think I would be - oh but hey stuff like that is happening in Burma (the world often calls it by the name that the military junta -illegal rulers call it) Myanmar...

People are being killed because of their race - women, children as well - soldiers are paid a bounty for abusing women as they may get pregnant and then dilute the race... the democratically elected leader has been under house arrest for many years and they are planning to keep her there until she dies - if the US decided to do something about that I have to confess my views would likely change...

Sorry, totally off track...

My views on 9/11? I haven't much looked into it - but not much would surprise me... there's a whole heap of stuff that goes down in this world that we don't even have a clue about.

I wonder sometimes what would Jesus do? Heal the sick, feed the poor, love our neighbour... all the really hard stuff. :)

You just stated why we're in Iraq...those people have been living in fear for so long...I honestly believe our president is trying to do a noble thing...and I pray that situation would work out for the best as well, the one you mentioned.

[blacksheep]

Right on Clem'

Kiwi, who are you with in Thailand? Any group specificly? I have some old friends that are doing the Lord's work there. WonGen ring any bells?

[Evanescence]

so then we have a problem with romans 13? I'd like to see someone have an alternative that can come out of their mouth. remember paul was inspired by the holy spirit. the reason we are to respect authority or whatever is due to the seperation of kingdoms to put it into laymans terms. The world has a kingdom, which is mostly political, and then there is God's Kingdom which is not political but spiritual. And because we are in the world we are to obey authority, but bc of God's Kingdom we are obviously not of the world.

The only people who use the Bible to justify standing behind a President, are those who refuse to critisize or stand up when he's wrong. They'll use Paul's suggestions...even giving justications for a variety of unGodly acts. Like the killing of 700,000 innocent people.

But, we were talking about 911 Conspiracy Possibilities, not Bush. But, seein's as we are, maybe we can talk about PNAC. How many of ya'll know about this?

Allow me:

In the Mid-90's a group of Govt and political figures got together and formed a coalition:

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) is an American neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C., co-founded as "a non-profit educational organization" by William Kristol and Robert Kagan in early 1997. The PNAC's stated goal is "to promote American global leadership."[1] Fundamental to the PNAC are the view that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world" and support for "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."[2] It has exerted strong influence on high-level U.S. government officials in the administration of U.S President George W. Bush and strongly affected the Bush administration's development of military and foreign policies, especially involving national security.[3][4][5]


These are talking points concerning this PNAC plan which George W. Bush has apparently adopted as a blueprint for his administration’s foreign policy. An original copy of this PNAC document can be obtained from: www.newamericancentury.or g It consists of 90 pages. What does this (PNAC) document reveal about the following topics and ideas?



5. Members of the present Bush Administration had important roles in the formulation of the PNAC document. The following individuals were a part of a group of conservative interventionists who have been outraged by the thought that the United States might be forfeiting its chance for global domination.(or empire as others outside their ranks say).

- Paul Wolfowitz is now Deputy Defense Secretary.

- John Bolton is Undersecretary of State.

- Stephen Cambone is head of the Pentagon’s Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation.

- Eliot Cohen is a member of the Defense Policy Board, which advises Rumsfeld.

- Devon Cross is a member of the Defense Policy Board, which advises Rumsfeld.

- Jeb Bush, Florida Governor and brother to the President

- I. Lewis Libby is Chief of Staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.

- Dov Zakheim is Comptroller for the Defense Department.

- Other founders of PNAC include Vice-President Dick Cheney , Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, William J. Bennett (Reagan’s former Education

Secretary), and Zalmay Khalilzad (Bush’s Ambassador to Afghanistan).

-------------------------------------------------
Here is some and VERY interesting:

Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" (51).[22]

-----------------------
These are comments and facts from a Christian site opposed to the war in Iraq and asking tough questions about 911.

7. A "New Pearl Harbor". PNAC says that what was needed for America to dominate much of humanity and the world’s resources, it said, was "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". The attacks of September 11, 2001 provided the "new Pearl Harbor", described as "the opportunity of ages". The extremists who have since exploited September 11 come from the era of Ronald Reagan, when far-right groups and "think-tanks" were established to avenge the American "defeat" in Vietnam. In the 1990s, there was an added agenda: to justify the denial of a "peace dividend" following the cold war. The Project for the New American Century was formed, along with the American Enterprise Institute, the Hudson Institute and others that have since merge the ambitions of the Reagan administration with those of the current Bush regime. Time and again, September 11 is described as an "opportunity". It provided the necessary catalyst to put the global war plan into effect. Congress quickly allocated $40 billion to fund the "war on terrorism" shortly after September 11. In the last April’s New Yorker, the investigative reporter Nicholas Lemann wrote that Bush’s most senior adviser, Condoleezze Rice, told him she had called together senior members of the National Security County and asked them "to think about ‘how do you capitalize on these opportunities, which she compared with those of "1945 to 1947"; the start of the cold war. Since September 11, America has established bases at the gateways to all the major sources of fossil fuels, especially central Asia. The Unocal oil company is to build a pipeline across Afghanistan. Bush as scrapped the Kyoto Protocol on greenhouse gas emissions, the war crimes provisions of the International Criminal Court and the anti-ballistic missile treaty. He has said he will use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states "if necessary". Under cover of propaganda about Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction, the Bush regime is developing new weapons of mass destruction that undermine international treaties on biological and chemical warfare.
--------------------------

Imagine that. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, Scooter Libby all part of a coaltition that claims we need a NEW PEARL HARBOR to allow the USA to move forward in world dominace. The documents also show that the words; False Flags were used several times. False Flags are deceptive measures to shift the blame unto another entity for the justification for revenge.

Imagine that...

Next up. The Bush family tree. Prescott Bush (grandpa Bush) losing his business for doing business with the Nazi's, Big Daddy Bush and his 20 yrs in the CIA and GW Bush connections with the Bin Laden family. Then, Dick Cheney's Haliburton connection and 30 year political career with long time mentor, Don Rumsfeld.

Where do I begin??? :rolleyes:

[Evanescence]

Evan, lets take a stroll in logic. To pull this coup off, here is a short list of what the Prez would have to pull off:

Plan the attack and the post attack actions in less than 9 months.

Pin it on Muslim extremist (who, luckily, had attacked the same buildings before) convincingly enough to make most of the U.S. and congress believe it.

Dupe tens of thousands of eye witnesses to report and repeat what they saw either by money, fear, or magic.

Now, if he or the govt or the catholic church can accomplish these 3 things, then why can't they produce a single WMD which would vindicate them and allow them to continue their diabolical scheming.


I NEVER once said anything about the Pres being a part of this. In fact, i offered no significant conclusions. I merely asked tough questions.

However, when dealing with men of immense power can do virtually anything. I can name 20 more obstacles better than your bunch that would make it hard to pull off this 911 conspiracy. Should I?

But again, men with tremendous power and money can do anything.

Now, for the small hole-big plane controversy. Go buy yourselves a nice strong rifle. Maybe a 30 06 (you know, a thirty aught-six) and shoot a couple rounds through a nice firm substance. Then measure the hole and compare that to the size of the bullet. I guarantee that an unfired bullet won't fit through the hole. When firing into certain other materials the hole will be much larger than the bullet. The same is true for missiles (which might be harder to find at your local Wal Mart, thus the rifle suggestion) and I suspect airliners-although that would be a rather expensive experiment. Point is, because some "expert" measured the hole and the fuselage, discovered they weren't the same size, and then published an article outlining why it's now the president's doing doesn't make it in the least bit true.


Not even close. I assure you, i know more about ballistics, guns and ammunition than you do, x 100 and your analogy isn't even applicable. Its really simple. If the Pentagon is built strong, almost blast proof, then there'd be significant wreckage outside. There was none. Its all on the media they feed us...right in front of us. This coupled with the lack of true videos footage of one of the important buildings in the world? Thats logic. Somethings wrong. Very wrong.

I think its all there....if you want to see it. Let us all remember that in nazi Germany, no one believed the reports and in MOST circles, Hitler was loved and adored. They were'nt so proud when the films and testimonies surfaced.

[Evanescence]

There was a report in the Truth Movement circles that VP Cheney was actually at NORAD overseeing War Games in the Eastern US, on the morning of 9/11. I have struggled with this info trying to seek out the truth and accurate info on this. It seems it is common knowledge and open for discussion....

Check this out:

From: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtm l

Opportunity - 9/11 War Games: The Air Force was running multiple war games on the morning of 9/11 simulating hijackings over the continental United States that included (at least) one "live-fly" exercise as well as simulations that placed "false blips" on FAA radar screens. These war games eerily mirrored the real events of 9/11 to the point of the Air Force running drills involving hijacked aircraft as the 9/11 plot actually unfolded. The war games & terror drills played a critical role in ensuring no Air Force fighter jocks - who had trained their entire lives for this moment - would be able to prevent the attacks from succeeding. These exercises were under Dick Cheney's management. (Click here for a summary of these points)

As the 9/11 plot unfolded, it has been reported that Secret Service whisked Dick Cheney into an underground presidential bunker at 9:03. 1 This establishes that the Secret Service was in the loop giving orders by at least 9:03, and almost certainly much earlier, as we will show.

Former counter-terrorism advisor Richard Clarke writes in Against All Enemies: "Secret Service had a system that allowed them to see what FAA's radar was seeing." The Kean Commission (also known as the 9/11 Commission) would have us believe that the chain of command on 9/11 was a complex web, but in reality the Secret Service had the authority to communicate presidential and vice presidential orders directly to fighter pilots in the air. 2

In Air War Over America, a book commissioned by the Air Force documenting the morning of 9/11, it is stated that the FAA contacted Otis Air Force base informing them Flight 11 was headed to Manhattan and had lost its identification signal by 8:30. 3 This indicates Secret Service was in the loop by the same time, or shortly thereafter, since they are able to see FAA radar screens in real time and FAA is reaching out to the military. There is no question that by 8:45 at the absolute latest, likely much earlier, Secret Service is in the decision-making loop. They were most likely in the loop after 8:15 when flight 11 turned its transponder off.

OPPORTUNITY: 9/11 War Games - a perfect "match"
On May 8, 2001 - four months prior to 9/11 - the president placed Dick Cheney in charge of "[A]ll federal programs dealing with weapons of mass destruction consequence management within the Departments of Defense, Health and Human Services, Justice, and Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, and other federal agencies…" This included all "training and planning" which needed to be "seamlessly integrated, harmonious and comprehensive" in order to "maximize effectiveness." This mandate created the Office of National Preparedness in FEMA, overseen by Dick Cheney. 15

Dick Cheney was placed directly in charge of managing the seamless integration of all training exercises throughout the entire federal government and all military agencies. On 9/11 Cheney oversaw multiple war games and terror drills, including several exercises of NORAD, the Air Force agency whose mandate is to "watch the sky."

We know multiple Air Force war games were running on the morning of 9/11, as documented extensively in the mainstream press. 16 What Crossing the Rubicon has documented conclusively is that there was a live-fly drill taking place on 9/11 titled Vigilant Warrior. Richard Clarke disclosed the name of this drill on page 4 of his book, but it was Major Don Arias of NORAD who confirmed the definition of the title "Warrior" to Mike Ruppert via email.

Warrior = JCS/HQ NORAD sponsored FTX, or field training exercise (live-fly). 17

That means that the Vigilant Warrior drill conducted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff involved at least one real commercial aircraft in the skies, intended to simulate exactly the kind of airliner hijack emergency presented on 9/11. Coincidence?

This was further supported by an April 18 2004 USA Today article titled, "NORAD had drills of jets as weapons." The report cited NORAD officials who confirmed live-fly drills were conducted using hijacked airliners originating from the continental United States used as weapons crashing into targets including the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The specific drill USA Today referred to was "planned in July [2001] and conducted later" - likely on 9/11 itself. 18

Remember, on 9/11 the Bush administration claimed it had "no idea" aircraft would be used as weapons. Then why were they drilling such scenarios before and during 9/11? The Whitehouse dodged this by saying it wasn't aware of these drills but that is a transparent lie. The drills took place in the Whitehouse! 19
---------------------------------

Dick Cheney invloved in war games the morning of Sept 11? Imagine that...

[blacksheep]

[edit] Removed alleged PNAC members or signatories
The references provided for the list of PNAC members did not substantiate the entire list. The following names were removed from the article, pending confirmation (with a reliable source) that they were PNAC members, former members, or signatories to significant statements or reports. MoodyGroove 17:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

*Richard Armitage

James B. Borow, former deputy director of the NSA, co-founder of the Illinois Center for Core Values
*Rudy Boschwitz, former US Senator from Minnesota

George W. Bush, 43rd US President
*Charles Krauthammer, conservative columnist

Christopher Maletz
Daniel McKivergan
*Richard Perle

Abram Shulsky, former Director of Office of Special Plans
R. James Woolsey, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency for President Bill Clinton, vice-president at Booz Allen Hamilton
|Dov S. Zakheim

Name Department Title Remarks
Richard Armitage Department of State (2001-2005) Deputy Secretary of State Disclosed Valerie Plame's identity (Plamegate scandal).
John R. Bolton Department of State (2001-2006) U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations(2005-2006) Previously Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs(2001-2005).
Rudy Boschwitz Department of State(2005- Head of the U.S. Delegation to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights[18]
Seth Cropsey International Broadcasting Bureau
(12/2002-12/2004) Director Voice of America was under his purview
Abram Shulsky Department of Defense (2002-2003) Director, Office of Special Plans ad-hoc department (2002-2003) created by Donald Rumsfeld, reporting to Douglas Feith
Richard Perle Department of Defense (2001-2003) Chairman of the Board, Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee resigned as chairman in March 2003, under accusations of bribery
Department of Defense Comptroller Former V.P. of System Planning Corporation[19]
Robert B. Zoellick Department of State Deputy Secretary of State Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005);

MoodyGroove 17:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Struck out cropsey. Thanks moody. this re-org of membership is great!--67.101.189.143 04:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a list of people who wikipedia (i'm assuming you read the article, Evan, since you basically retold it word for word) has decided to remove from said article because they can not confirm with any evidence that they belong to PNAC. It's kinda hard to read, but you get the picture. It's all speculation to say that these people are even involved with PNAC.

100x, lol. A bold statement, Sir, considering you don't know anything about me. The point of that post was only to point out the unpredictabilty of ballistics that the general public educated by CSI: Miami is not aware of. And, so far as I know, no one has ever crashed a plain into the pentagon, or a building like it before, and there by, would not truly know what it would look like.

[blacksheep]

From: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/fre...y_case.shtm l


*yawn* another conspiracy website. You are being ridiculous. So, how are you an expert on ballistics anyway? You've pricked my curiosity.

[blacksheep]

PNAC says:

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Seems they are being counter productive.

[Evanescence]

No need to deflect from the issues at hand Mr. Sheep.

Show me the video footage from the Pentagon and pics of the wreckage and I'll walk from this dance. Till then, you're just shooting blanks....:cool:

PS...ever hear of Desert Storm?

LMBO...

[Gandalf]

I think this site (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/) is about as convincing as the arguments in the OP. ;)

[blacksheep]

Speaking to Evan:

Brother, let me simplify my problem.

I don't disagree with the idea that things could be more sinister than they appear. I'm a believer in the depravity of man and that each one of us is capable of doing terribly evil things.

My problem is how you are arguing your theory and the information you are presenting. You are the one who is making accusations of the purposeful murder of tens of thousands of people. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. We can both pull web pages all day long, backing our side of the story, but there is nothing that says those pages aren't full of the same lies we are accusing the other side of telling. You'll read things like:

We know multiple Air Force war games were running on the morning of 9/11, as documented extensively in the mainstream press. 16 What Crossing the Rubicon has documented conclusively is that there was a live-fly drill taking place on 9/11 titled Vigilant Warrior. Richard Clarke disclosed the name of this drill on page 4 of his book, but it was Major Don Arias of NORAD who confirmed the definition of the title "Warrior" to Mike Ruppert via email.


Now go search for these open source reports from the main stream media and I'll wager you'll have a tuff time turning them up. That's what most of these "twelve proofs of conspiracy" type organizations do. They give the reader bullet after bullet, rapid fire without really disclosing their sources. A well researched piece would have had the sources printed in the text of the document. But since it's not, it's no better than you or I saying that, "It has been well documented that the moon is made of cheese." It would then be to easy to add into that statement, "Neil Armstrong said in a letter to Buzz Aldrin that he had tasted the moon, and that it was indeed made of cheese." That was a slightly ridiculous analogy although it is not totally inaccurate. This is the same style of argument that freemasons use in order to support there wild and unChristian beliefs. Huge volumes of info, with nonexistent or obscure sources, that serves to flood the reader with a particular idea. I'm not saying you are a mason or not a Christian. Quite the contrary, I believe you must be a committed Christian. I'm only bringing it up to illustrate my aversion to this style to begin with.

I've seen some strange things, some might be described as inexplicable, though not truly inexplicable. But questionable video tapes are not enough for me to accuse any person or group of people of mass murder.

So, are you saying that you were involved in Desert Storm? And who might you have served with, Brother, if so?

[Evanescence]

I don't disagree with the idea that things could be more sinister than they appear. I'm a believer in the depravity of man and that each one of us is capable of doing terribly evil things.


But, you don't think a good "Godly Republican" could do it?

My problem is how you are arguing your theory and the information you are presenting. You are the one who is making accusations of the purposeful murder of tens of thousands of people. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. We can both pull web pages all day long, backing our side of the story, but there is nothing that says those pages aren't full of the same lies we are accusing the other side of telling. You'll read things like:


Huh? Tens of thousands? 911 took the lives of 3000+ lives, not 10,000 or more. None theless, a lot of innocent lives lost.

I have nothing to prove. I didn't make the initial report, the 911 Commision did. Its my/our civil duty to ask tough questions, especially when there are obvious inconsistencies....

Our Govt owes us the right answers, not me. They also need to answer tough questions about PNAC and other top secret operations involving law abiding Americans....like Project Northwoods.

Now go search for these open source reports from the main stream media and I'll wager you'll have a tuff time turning them up. That's what most of these "twelve proofs of conspiracy" type organizations do. They give the reader bullet after bullet, rapid fire without really disclosing their sources. A well researched piece would have had the sources printed in the text of the document. But since it's not, it's no better than you or I saying that, "It has been well documented that the moon is made of cheese." It would then be to easy to add into that statement, "Neil Armstrong said in a letter to Buzz Aldrin that he had tasted the moon, and that it was indeed made of cheese." That was a slightly ridiculous analogy although it is not totally inaccurate. This is the same style of argument that freemasons use in order to support there wild and unChristian beliefs. Huge volumes of info, with nonexistent or obscure sources, that serves to flood the reader with a particular idea. I'm not saying you are a mason or not a Christian. Quite the contrary, I believe you must be a committed Christian. I'm only bringing it up to illustrate my aversion to this style to begin with.


I'm glad I have your approval and understanding.

You expect to find info about a conspiracy on 911 in our mainstream media? You can't be serious. Although there has been a few reports and open discussions, our government controlled media would never stand for a REAL report or debate, only some half-baked crooked de-bunking to sway the unsuspecting public away from the truth. There were several Vids and clips in regards to 911 that were only shown once, thats because they show things that are damaging and suspect. Example- on one CNN clip, just prior to the collapse of the towers, a live clip was shown of the towers. In the lower left corner a huge plume of smoke rises 60-80 stories. What was it? No one knows.

We are programmed by our media, my friend. Watch the news and look at how its orchestrated and fed to us.

I've seen some strange things, some might be described as inexplicable, though not truly inexplicable. But questionable video tapes are not enough for me to accuse any person or group of people of mass murder.


I understand that and can see how you could not want to believe it. I have no qualms with your stance. But, I have studied this for quite a while, often swaying AWAY from the truth and trying NOT to believe it. I looked at it with a VERY open mind and I do have some opinions and problems with some of the theories surrounding this possibility. But, I feel there is enough evidence and credible people coming forth that it needs to be looked at.

Which leads me to this statement:

Thanks to all the people who sent me PMs and Emails about this topic. I appreciate your opinions and interest....as well as you wanting to be quiet about this. As promised, I deleted your PMs and emails.

Now, back to this last segment of Mr. Sheep:

*yawn* another conspiracy website. You are being ridiculous.

There are always slanted opinions when politics is involved and I see it a mile away. It doesn't help the cause. Here is a website that has a HUGE amount of credible people and appears to be VERY non-partisan....

www.patriotsquestion911.c om

[blacksheep]

But, you don't think a good "Godly Republican" could do it?


Yes, I think that is exactly what I was thinking. You shouldn't be so inflammatory when you are trying to be manipulative. It gives it away.

Huh? Tens of thousands? 911 took the lives of 3000+ lives, not 10,000 or more. None the less, a lot of innocent lives lost.


I was including the war and every death that has been caused by this conspiracy, and I thought I read that as a number you quoted somewhere else, although I could be wrong.

You expect to find info about a conspiracy on 911 in our mainstream media? You can't be serious. Although there has been a few reports and open discussions, our government controlled media would never stand for a REAL report or debate, only some half-baked crooked de-bunking to sway the unsuspecting public away from the truth.

You seemed to have missed the point. I quoted directly out of one of your previous post:

We know multiple Air Force war games were running on the morning of 9/11, as documented extensively in the mainstream press. 16 What Crossing the Rubicon has documented conclusively is that there was a live-fly drill taking place on 9/11 titled Vigilant Warrior. Richard Clarke disclosed the name of this drill on page 4 of his book, but it was Major Don Arias of NORAD who confirmed the definition of the title "Warrior" to Mike Ruppert via email.

Now, show me where the mainstream press has reported on AF war games during 9-11. I'm saying this source is bunk, just like all of your sources. You didn't address a single point that I brought up about your sources.


Thanks to all the people who sent me PMs and Emails about this topic. I appreciate your opinions and interest....as well as you wanting to be quiet about this. As promised, I deleted your PMs and emails.


This is manipulative and should have been kept between you and your friends and has no place in this discussion. This goes to my larger point from my previous post. Your sources provide no sourcing of their own and you use manipulative speech and made up statistics. Ohh, you don't remember? Well let's see.

I assure you, i know more about ballistics, guns and ammunition than you do, x 100

uhh, ok. At the time I chose not to bring up that you were using the argument of a 7 year old. Now I realize that I should have pulled the trump card, so here it goes. I no more about everything than you x infinity. There, no more argument about who knows more.

Here's another from a previous thread-may not be exact, but you can't deny it's close.

"98% of people don't trust the government." Really, did you pole them? Have you seen a pole that says that? What do you mean by trust? Here's another statistic- 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

www.patriotsquestion911.c om- I don't have access to the site because it is a message board (I know, I'm on one right now, truth is, I don't know why this one isn't blocked either.) Anyway, if it is another message board, then why would I trust a bunch of people doing the exact same thing we are doing here?

But, I feel there is enough evidence and credible people coming forth that it needs to be looked at.


People's (regardless of how credible) opinions are not equivalent to evidence.

Our Govt owes us the right answers, not me. They also need to answer tough questions about PNAC and other top secret operations involving law abiding Americans....like Project Northwoods.


Brother, you are the one making accusations, you owe us the evidence. Once the evidence is submitted, then they owe a defense.

Example- on one CNN clip, just prior to the collapse of the towers, a live clip was shown of the towers. In the lower left corner a huge plume of smoke rises 60-80 stories. What was it? No one knows.


This is not evidence. You say it yourself. "No one knows." Did you ever stop to ask, "Is it even possible to know why this (smoke) happened?"

I don't care what you personally believe about this and I would normally have nothing about this to say to you for or against. It's the fact that you are here trying to pass off this info as well researched material.

[Evanescence]

I was including the war and every death that has been caused by this conspiracy, and I thought I read that as a number you quoted somewhere else, although I could be wrong.


OK, I see. Hey, I never said that Bush invaded Iraq because of 911 or that he was invloved or even that this conspiracy possibility was TO invade Iraq. They're two separate issues, but could be connected.

Now, show me where the mainstream press has reported on AF war games during 9-11. I'm saying this source is bunk, just like all of your sources. You didn't address a single point that I brought up about your sources.


Understood. I will research. I thought I did hear it on NBC or CNN days after, but I can't be sure.

This is manipulative and should have been kept between you and your friends and has no place in this discussion. This goes to my larger point from my previous post. Your sources provide no sourcing of their own and you use manipulative speech and made up statistics. Ohh, you don't remember? Well let's see.


No manipulation here. Just people concerned for their safety. Myself included.

"98% of people don't trust the government." Really, did you pole them? Have you seen a pole that says that? What do you mean by trust? Here's another statistic- 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


You really can't be serious. The presidents approval rating is the lowest ever, and Congress lower yet. Heck, I live in a rural, conservative area and people here are VERY skeptical of our Govt. They see the lobbying, double talk and BS. Even within the political game of Dems vs Reps, people are fed up and NOT trusting. I didn't have to poll anyone....I used a number I felt was appropreate and I assure you is darn close. There's no trick wording or manipulation here.....just turn on the news, ask a few people and you'll see what people think about Washington.

www.patriotsquestion911.c om- I don't have access to the site because it is a message board (I know, I'm on one right now, truth is, I don't know why this one isn't blocked either.) Anyway, if it is another message board, then why would I trust a bunch of people doing the exact same thing we are doing here?


Its not, I don't know why it didn't load. Its a real site. If you are already convinced we're loonies, then you will dismiss it all. If you have an open mind, you'll check it out....

Example- on one CNN clip, just prior to the collapse of the towers, a live clip was shown of the towers. In the lower left corner a huge plume of smoke rises 60-80 stories. What was it? No one knows.

This is not evidence. You say it yourself. "No one knows." Did you ever stop to ask, "Is it even possible to know why this (smoke) happened?"


Let me see if I have this right. We have two planes that struck the WTCs near the middle or top of the buildings. CNN broadcasts a LIVE shot that inadvertantly shows a HUGE and obviously HUGE plume of smoke rising from the left, near the very bottom of the towers, away from the wind and separate from the buildings and this isn't suspect? It was broadcast once and during the 911 commission (Omission) this as well as dozens of eyewitness and expert testimony was ignored. THAT was the point. Our media was likley not allowed to re-broadcast this sort of thing and its VERY suspect.

I don't care what you personally believe about this and I would normally have nothing about this to say to you for or against. It's the fact that you are here trying to pass off this info as well researched material.

Me either...and I'm not sure why I am arguing with someone who was in high school when 911 happened. But, hey, I was young and naive once too...

Unless you're a CIA operative in disguise....:cool:

Find us the wreckage at the Pentagon and we'll call it a day. Till then, there's more to dig into...

[blacksheep]

Me either...and I'm not sure why I am arguing with someone who was in high school when 911 happened. But, hey, I was young and naive once too...

Unless you're a CIA operative in disguise....


LOL. "young and naive..." I graduated in May 2000, thank you. More manipulation on your part. You shouldn't be so disparaging towards people who are younger than you anyway, especially when you don't know much about them. You should rely on the facts and not your age to prove your point. And I'm no spook:cool: .

So tell me, wise Sir, how and when you became so smart. Was it Desert Storm?


Find us the wreckage at the Pentagon and we'll call it a day. Till then, there's more to dig into...

Afraid I have to call it a night regardless. God bless.

[ausgirl]

Okay, I sat here and read all of the first 31/2 pages, then you all got onto President Bush and government stuff and the posts were almost a page long each and I got a bit bored - anyway, E, do I have this right....

Someone (the american govt?), plotted to crash 2 planes into the world trade centre and the pentagon. However, they were not the hijacked planes but remote controlled other planes, in the case of the pentagon, not a plane at all but a booby trapped truck or something.
The world trade centre had been packed with enough explosives to make the buildings implode after the planes crashed into them.
The 'hijacked' planes were taken off somewhere else and destroyed including all passengers.
The people who called their families on board were fakes aswell.
Someone allowed all of these lives to be lost and for what reason?

I know the question of the point of this has been asked way back in the first page of so, but has it been answered?? If this was an orchestrated event, what was the reason for it?

E???

[clemsontigers23]

I want to know how the approval ratings are obtained...I don't approve of our Congress, but I do approve of our president, yet I have never voted in any kind of poll. How do you know these numbers aren't made up?

[Evanescence]

I want to know how the approval ratings are obtained...I don't approve of our Congress, but I do approve of our president, yet I have never voted in any kind of poll. How do you know these numbers aren't made up?

Ah....there you are Clemson old pal...:D

I too question these polls....but just talking to people in public, they're fed up all the way around....

People don't trust Bush and Cheney....too many inconsistencies and double talk....

Congress? Its subject for jokes on late night TV.....its a joke...everyone agrees....

Tonight i'll address Aus girl....and wrap this up.....

see ya's

[blacksheep]

Originally Posted by clemsontigers23
I want to know how the approval ratings are obtained...I don't approve of our Congress, but I do approve of our president, yet I have never voted in any kind of poll. How do you know these numbers aren't made up?

Ah....there you are Clemson old pal...

I too question these polls....but just talking to people in public, they're fed up all the way around....
People don't trust Bush and Cheney....too many inconsistencies and double talk....

Congress? Its subject for jokes on late night TV.....its a joke...everyone agrees....


I don't care about polls and I think most reasonable people feel the same way. Look, if you simply ask someone if they trust congress or the Prez, most-not all, I agree, will say no. If you ask them if they feel the government was in some way responsible for what happened on 9-11 (still a broad quetion on it's own), most people say no. So again, stop using supposed public opinion to prove your point, since it doesn't anyway, and start shelling out some provable, sourcable, solid evidence.

If anyone has ever read The Screw Tape Letters by C. S. Lewis, you will have been exposed to the idea that evil takes place in the mundane, using extraordinary to cover for it. Just a thought that perhaps all this talk of large conspiracy and NWO (I do not discount that the NWO is coming and is a bad thing) and all that rought may be disguising the true sins.

[danbos]

This link locked my computer up THREE times....

I hope this isn't some kinda joke....

I will try it again later....

I have cable Internet and had to shut down and re-start 3 times !!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Nope, it wasn't a joke of any kind. I can get to it just fine...I just tried again too, and it worked...so I don't know what's up.

[Valpo]

it is because of discussions like these and theories like these that I wish Jesus would just come back already...

[clemsontigers23]

I don't care about polls and I think most reasonable people feel the same way. Look, if you simply ask someone if they trust congress or the Prez, most-not all, I agree, will say no. If you ask them if they feel the government was in some way responsible for what happened on 9-11 (still a broad quetion on it's own), most people say no. So again, stop using supposed public opinion to prove your point, since it doesn't anyway, and start shelling out some provable, sourcable, solid evidence.

If anyone has ever read The Screw Tape Letters by C. S. Lewis, you will have been exposed to the idea that evil takes place in the mundane, using extraordinary to cover for it. Just a thought that perhaps all this talk of large conspiracy and NWO (I do not discount that the NWO is coming and is a bad thing) and all that rought may be disguising the true sins.

I read that book...well, actually I read about half of it, but I get the jist of what it was saying.

[Evanescence]

Here is something every single American should watch...

This is an undoctored, legit footage of the collapse of the mysterious Building 7, in NYC, just a few hours after both WTCs collapsed. This footage is easily found on any CNN, NBC or Fox news compilation DVD. However, some people don't even know about Building 7, or the events around its collapse.

I won't give it away or led anyone on. See for yourself and make up your own mind. Keep in mind the lack of damage done to building 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM

Talk soon, :D

[clemsontigers23]

Here is something every single American should watch...

This is an undoctored, legit footage of the collapse of the mysterious Building 7, in NYC, just a few hours after both WTCs collapsed. This footage is easily found on any CNN, NBC or Fox news compilation DVD. However, some people don't even know about Building 7, or the events around its collapse.

I won't give it away or led anyone on. See for yourself and make up your own mind. Keep in mind the lack of damage done to building 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM

Talk soon, :D

There are circumstances you don't know about that could've happened in that building, but there's also the idea that they could've demolished it in order to save lives, as they've done with many other buildings before. It's interesting, but your conspiracy theories are not going to convince me.

[Evanescence]

There are circumstances you don't know about that could've happened in that building, but there's also the idea that they could've demolished it in order to save lives, as they've done with many other buildings before. It's interesting, but your conspiracy theories are not going to convince me.

Funny you should mention that...but it does kinda look like a controlled demolition....:cool:

[clemsontigers23]

Funny you should mention that...but it does kinda look like a controlled demolition....:cool:

Of course, something inside the building could've exploded as well. Like I said, you don't know the circumstances and neither do I.

[Evanescence]

Of course, something inside the building could've exploded as well. Like I said, you don't know the circumstances and neither do I.

Funny though, a controlled demolition takes weeks to plan...

How on earth would they...??? :cool:

[ausgirl]

Okay, I sat here and read all of the first 31/2 pages, then you all got onto President Bush and government stuff and the posts were almost a page long each and I got a bit bored - anyway, E, do I have this right....

Someone (the american govt?), plotted to crash 2 planes into the world trade centre and the pentagon. However, they were not the hijacked planes but remote controlled other planes, in the case of the pentagon, not a plane at all but a booby trapped truck or something.
The world trade centre had been packed with enough explosives to make the buildings implode after the planes crashed into them.
The 'hijacked' planes were taken off somewhere else and destroyed including all passengers.
The people who called their families on board were fakes aswell.
Someone allowed all of these lives to be lost and for what reason?

I know the question of the point of this has been asked way back in the first page of so, but has it been answered?? If this was an orchestrated event, what was the reason for it?

E???
So are you just going to keep ignoring the question??


What - if this was planned by someone - was the reason?????

[Pouye]

So are you just going to keep ignoring the question??


What - if this was planned by someone - was the reason?????

The answer is obvious:

They wanted to start a War in the Middle East so that they could get a firm grip on the oil and natural gas industry there. They also wanted more control in the region to boost Brown and Root's network of drug trafficking cartels in the region under the guise of a construction company.

Bush and Cheney had not only oil interests amounting to billions (Peak Oil, other contracts), but the drug trade was slipping away from them and they wanted to get better hold of it again.

That is the basic story from the other side. It was about oil, money, power, and greed.

Rock

[clemsontigers23]

E still hasn't addressed my point that Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for it and releases a video every week saying how much they want to destroy America.

[middletree]

E still hasn't addressed my point that Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for it and releases a video every week saying how much they want to destroy America.

That's easy. You and I don't understand Arabic. We don't know what Osama and others are really saying in those videos. They're probably talking about sports of something. The press, which is in cahoots with the government, is telling us what Al Quaeda is supposedly saying, but they are lying.

[Buttabean]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this "conspiracy" thing is completely absurd. :rolleyes: People need to find something better to do with their time, seriously.

[Evanescence]

So are you just going to keep ignoring the question??


What - if this was planned by someone - was the reason?????


Sorry AusGirl, I wasn't ignoring you or your question....just very busy. Last night I almost got into it...but crashed. (no pun intended)

Pouye and Tree, Good ones....:D

[Evanescence]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this "conspiracy" thing is completely absurd. :rolleyes: People need to find something better to do with their time, seriously.

My guess is you didn't even take one second to look at the evidence....

What may I ask were you doing on 9/11?

[DareDevil]

That's easy. You and I don't understand Arabic. We don't know what Osama and others are really saying in those videos. They're probably talking about sports of something. The press, which is in cahoots with the government, is telling us what Al Quaeda is supposedly saying, but they are lying.
That's silly. I'm sure that are still a lot of Americans who speak Arabic for whatever reason and who would be up in arms now, if that was the case.

[Evanescence]

To answer AusGirls question:

You're basically asking what and why would our Govt or someone else do these things and blame it on terrorists?

The answer:

I have no idea. And I don't really care. Thats not my primary concern. My first is God, but in regards to this, I have tough questions based on overwhelming evidence, facts and eyewitness accounts. Perhaps if our Govt did this, they DO want to take over the oil in the Middle East. They say that oil production is set to peak from 2005 to 2010 then begin a slow gradual decline. Maybe we're running out of oil and no ones telling us. Maybe its to set the stage for a New World Order.

Can anyone deny that 9/11 ushered in a shift and new way of thinking in the world? Can anyone deny how security and ID issues have radically changed? There was an immediate paradigm shift after 9/11 and I knew it was going to happen.....that security and ID issues would jump to the forefront in our world. And it has...and will continue. 9/11 was the catalyst for that.

What a perfect opportunity to bring this new way of thinking in, thus setting the stage for a one world government, new way of governing people. Can anyone deny that a NWO is upon us? The Patriot Act being forced down our throats within weeks of 9/11? Are we so blind we can't see the possibilities?

I have no real idea why someone would conspire something like 9/11. But, I DO know that there are obvious inconsistencies that are hard to deny. I could name a dozen, and scoffers could explain them all away. Thats fine. But, I am convinced that we were lied to and am not trusting our government anytime soon.

Really, its funny. Most of you agree and believe in the end times, prophecies in the Bible, an oncoming NWO, microchips in humans being the Mark, devils tricks and decepetion and even believe in a God you can't see or touch. But, show you a video, eyewitness accounts and other facts and see if you can be open to a POSSIBILITY and you all sound like a bunch of atheists dismissing God and his miracles as coincidence.

I'm not a sheep going to the slaughter and I'm not a conformist. I'm also not a nutcase and credible people aren't making absurd claims. This has nothing to do with politics or even religion...its about truth and America. An America that might just be on the verge of being raped and stripped of her rights by lying politicians with connections around the globe. I'm not going down without a fight and I'm not going to scoff at soemthing so obvious a blind man could see it. And they do.

I respect those that don't agree because I know how a persons belief system works. I struggled with this issue and never even heard of it till last year. But mark my words, its gonna come out....sooner or later....this will surface and the truth will be known. Someones gonna eat crow and I have a feeling it won't be me.

Watch the YouTube Video, do some research and make up your own mind. But remember, every magic trick has a secret....

Are you watching closely? :cool:

[middletree]

That's silly. I'm sure that are still a lot of Americans who speak Arabic for whatever reason and who would be up in arms now, if that was the case.

Um...you do know I was joking, right?

[middletree]

There was an immediate paradigm shift after 9/11 and I knew it was going to happen.....that security and ID issues would jump to the forefront in our world. And it has...and will continue. 9/11 was the catalyst for that.

I for one do not deny this. I knew the day it happened that the govt would use it as an excuse to, eventually, lead to a tracking system of some sort.

Where I disagree with you is:

there are obvious inconsistencies that are hard to deny. ...show you a video, eyewitness accounts and other facts

I just don't think the points you made in your initial post, or the allegations in the Loose Change documentary, Fahrenheit 911, or other similar films, are even close to convincing.

[DareDevil]

Um...you do know I was joking, right?
That's what I was hoping for, but no, I wasn't sure. http://www.nsaheadquarters.info/images/laugh007.gif

Seriously, you Americans really have an unbelievable preference when it comes to conspiracy theories which is why I am occasionally not sure when one of you is kidding there. ;)

[Evanescence]

Building 7 at ground zero, 7 hours after the first planes hit the Twin Towers. This building was NOT hit, only had a few small fires inside and was a well built, steel building with no structural damage. Watch and see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM

Are you watching closely?

[Evanescence]

That's what I was hoping for, but no, I wasn't sure. http://www.nsaheadquarters.info/images/laugh007.gif

Seriously, you Americans really have an unbelievable preference when it comes to conspiracy theories which is why I am occasionally not sure when one of you is kidding there. ;)

A Conspiracy Theory is only a THEORY when there is no evidence suggesting a conspiracy. There IS evidence...overhwelming at that, which makes this a Conspiracy Possibility or Probability...

The real conspiracy theory was the bogus 911 Commission report....

[Buttabean]

My guess is you didn't even take one second to look at the evidence....

What may I ask were you doing on 9/11?


actually, yes, I did read the "evidence." And I was a junior in high school, in my horticulture class and we watched the second tower fall on television. By lunch our school was closed and almost the entire student body went to the flagpole to pray for the victims and their families. I remember very well, thank you.

[danbos]

That's easy. You and I don't understand Arabic. We don't know what Osama and others are really saying in those videos. They're probably talking about sports of something. The press, which is in cahoots with the government, is telling us what Al Quaeda is supposedly saying, but they are lying.

That is completely insane...there is no possible way the media is in cahoots with the government...have you watched the news lately?

[clemsontigers23]

That's easy. You and I don't understand Arabic. We don't know what Osama and others are really saying in those videos. They're probably talking about sports of something. The press, which is in cahoots with the government, is telling us what Al Quaeda is supposedly saying, but they are lying.

LOL. I thought you were serious for a second there.

[middletree]

That is completely insane...there is no possible way the media is in cahoots with the government...have you watched the news lately?

I thought the reference to Osama talking about sports gave it away, but I was joking.

[blacksheep]

Originally Posted by Evanescence
My guess is you didn't even take one second to look at the evidence....

What may I ask were you doing on 9/11?


Evan, your are reckless if not dishonest. What does it matter what any one person was actually doing, or how old they were on 9-11? I was a brand new firefighter in Kansas City, MO at the time, one of my many occupations. Does that help you any? Does is validate any point that I had previously brought up? I ask about people's past only because I like to hear others experiences. That's why I've made mention of your Desert Storm comment twice before this. If people don't want to talk about it, then it's their business. You have no credible or substantial evidence that there was any sort of conspiracy. You only paste links to "unedited" video clips, which, on their own are still not enough to even start to point a finger. You are quick to criticize someone on how old they are or the experience you believe they've had. You need to stop.

[danbos]

I thought the reference to Osama talking about sports gave it away, but I was joking.

I knew you were kind of joking there...but I thought you were actually serious about them purposefully mistranslating.

[Evanescence]

actually, yes, I did read the "evidence." And I was a junior in high school, in my horticulture class and we watched the second tower fall on television. By lunch our school was closed and almost the entire student body went to the flagpole to pray for the victims and their families. I remember very well, thank you.


Oh I see....so at the ripe old age of what, 15, you were able to think of world affairs and possible corrpution in our government? And now, just a few years later, people are crazy when they question authority and obvious flaws in a government report? Honestly, being as opinionated as I am, when I was 20-25years old, I was learning and not discrediting. I was learning and not scoffing.

However, I do remember a discussion I had with a few friends in the summer of 1989 (you'd be....um..lets see 7-8 yrs old) while sitting around a campfire, Coors Light in hand, I spoke up about how the AR movement was about to push for Microchips in animals. I had heard discussion of this coming to humans....in the future...and how it could be the Mark of the Beast. My friends laughed and scoffed. They're not laughing now. I could name a few more, but hey, what does a crazy conspiracy theorist know. Nothing but crazy, absurd thinking.

For you Ms. Butt-a-Bean as well as others who are scoffing, I have this:

Documented proof of Project Northwoods. Plans for "false flag" attacks on the USA as a pretext for war....

Enjoy :D
-----------------------------

As a former Marine who proudly served this country for 10 years, the most disturbing thing to me is that 9/11 was not the first time something like this has been proposed AND AUTHORIZED by our members of our government.

One such incident is Operation Northwoods, memo dated 13 March 1962. No, you probably did not hear much about that through the mainstream media but you now have access to this through the Freedom of Information Act. Operation Northwoods documents extensive plans on the part of the U.S Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff to engage in 'false flag' operations, to provoke a desired war with Cuba. Link through George Washington University, http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf. The Northwoods documents prove that U.S. government ‘false flag’ operations are an official reality. Also notice that the principal planners of these actions were ‘legitimate’ and established members of the government itself. This was not just a brainstorming session, “the Joint Chiefs of Staff approved these recommendations” (Page 3). Here is a sampling of their ideas:

“the suggested course of action…will…place the United States is in the position of suffering justifiable grievances” – Page 5, Item 5. AKA, the ends justify the means.

“lob mortar shells from outside of base into base” in Guantanamo Bay – Page 11, Item 7

“we could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba” – Page 11, Item 3a

“we could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington” – Page 11, Item 4

“we could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida” – Page 12, Item 4

“we could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding…exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots” – Page 12, Item 4

“hijacking attempts against civil aircraft and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures” – Page 13, Item 7

They even suggested “shot down a chartered civil aircraft…the passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday.” They suggest that they “descend…and evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status”– Page 13, Item 8 but they conveniently leave out the details of how they will explain that the people are still alive. In military lingo this is called plausible deniability.

It was only John F. Kennedy who finally denied implementing the Northwoods plan, which along with his refusal to expand the Vietnam war and his June 4, 1963 signing of Executive Order 11110 which returned the power to the US Government to issue currency without going through the Federal Reserve.…very quickly made him extremely unpopular with many powerful people in the Industrial/Military complex. By the way, what happened to JFK a little more than a year after he squashed the Operation Northwoods action and a couple of months after he signed EO 11110 which, not surprisingly, was never implemented?

Why have the American people been told nothing about Operation Northwoods by the mainstream media? I would think something like that would be very interesting to most people. It certainly should be ‘food for thought’ if you are struggling to accept the idea of massive cover-ups and lying from government leaders and the compliance of mainstream media.

[Evanescence]

Evan, your are reckless if not dishonest. What does it matter what any one person was actually doing, or how old they were on 9-11? I was a brand new firefighter in Kansas City, MO at the time, one of my many occupations. Does that help you any? Does is validate any point that I had previously brought up? I ask about people's past only because I like to hear others experiences. That's why I've made mention of your Desert Storm comment twice before this. If people don't want to talk about it, then it's their business. You have no credible or substantial evidence that there was any sort of conspiracy. You only paste links to "unedited" video clips, which, on their own are still not enough to even start to point a finger. You are quick to criticize someone on how old they are or the experience you believe they've had. You need to stop.

And you are young and naive. You as well as many others need to wake up. Not about this, but about life in general. My experience with DS is none of you business but I aussure you, I know ballistics and demolition quite well.

Come to the conclusion that life and history isn't always quite what we think it is. Only then will you not be sending money to Nigeria or registering for club Amway...LM"B"O

[blacksheep]

Evan, your are reckless if not dishonest. What does it matter what any one person was actually doing, or how old they were on 9-11? I was a brand new firefighter in Kansas City, MO at the time, one of my many occupations. Does that help you any? Does is validate any point that I had previously brought up? I ask about people's past only because I like to hear others experiences. That's why I've made mention of your Desert Storm comment twice before this. If people don't want to talk about it, then it's their business. You have no credible or substantial evidence that there was any sort of conspiracy. You only paste links to "unedited" video clips, which, on their own are still not enough to even start to point a finger. You are quick to criticize someone on how old they are or the experience you believe they've had. You need to stop.


You are still doing it.

OPN Northwoods, while raising eyebrows, does more to disprove your theory than prove it. It shows that checks and balances do work. OPN Northwoods, a slightly watered down version admitedly, can be found all the way back to '97, I believe. The latest version came out in '01. Mainstream has reported on it. Point is, it didn't ever happen.

Reality is that this was a plan drawn up by a military analyst. Some military analysts' jobs are to come up with any and every idea to defeat or defend against any and every conceivable enemy. CIA Red Cell does the same thing. A lot of their ideas are outlandish. That's the idea. It also serves to show us what the "enemy" might be thinking.

[blacksheep]

And you are young and naive. You as well as many others need to wake up. Not about this, but about life in general. My experience with DS is none of you business but I aussure you, I know ballistics and demolition quite well.

Come to the conclusion that life and history isn't always quite what we think it is. Only then will you not be sending money to Nigeria or registering for club Amway...LM"B"O

....then you are old and gullable. And I can assure you, I am very familiar with the above mentioned accoutrements as well.

[Evanescence]

You are still doing it.

OPN Northwoods, while raising eyebrows, does more to disprove your theory than prove it. It shows that checks and balances do work. OPN Northwoods, a slightly watered down version admitedly, can be found all the way back to '97, I believe. The latest version came out in '01. Mainstream has reported on it. Point is, it didn't ever happen.

Reality is that this was a plan drawn up by a military analyst. Some military analysts' jobs are to come up with any and every idea to defeat or defend against any and every conceivable enemy. CIA Red Cell does the same thing. A lot of their ideas are outlandish. That's the idea. It also serves to show us what the "enemy" might be thinking.

It doesn't have to prove anything...and myself nor the government has proved anything as well. NOTHING has been proven.

It does show the POSSIBILITY of this happening. That way back in 1962-'63, they had drone aircraft capable of being flown by remote control. These are all pieces of the puzzle....that for the possibility of a conspiracy against US citizens.

Many people are putting the pieces together and demanding a new investigation....includin g ex-miliatary, government workers, politicians, victim family members, high profile and educated professors and many other crdible people.

BTW- The video clip I posted is the same footage thats on any CNN tape. It shows Building 7 falling like a rock, as if by a controlled demolition. Which would be impossible to plan in 5-7 hrs.

Three things of note in regards to that:

1. A secret service agent died in that building

2. Guilianni had the middle section of that building triple reinforced just months before.

3. In the 911 Ommission Report, not one mention was made of the building or its suspiscious collapse. How ironic.....

Hmmmm...imagine that....

[blacksheep]

1. A secret service agent died in that building

not a very good one then.

[Gandalf]

I think that's enough personal bickering for one thread, on all sides. The rules haven't changed. Name calling still isn't acceptable.

Let's all remember to treat one another gently with love, preferring the well being of others to our own pride about being right.