Pope Benidict declares christian churches are "defective" and not "true" churches

[bholdj]

There is nothing new with the pope making such a decleration. It does make reconciliation difficult between Protestant's and Cathloics when the head of the Cathloic Church leans on tradition and not Jesus himself. Whom by the way could have cared less about showing "fedility" to Jeiwsh Tradition as the Pope is now doing to Cathloic Tradition.

I can see Jesus now" Ok guys, my Kingdom is coming, but just so you know, since im Jewish, I think the Jews are still my people" :rolleyes:

Jesus obliterated any obligation or "fidelity" requirements when he said that He, not tradition, or faithfullness to a church, etc was the Way.

Its almost as if according to Benidict, Christ's purpose in coming to earth was to establish a church. How strange then that the most prolific missionary in Christian history stated that Christ came to save sinners.

I have many Cathloic friends that are puzzeled as to why Benidict released the document now. So perhaps Im not alone in being a bit peeved :D

Here is the article


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_eu/pope_other_christians

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

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Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.

On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.

Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.

In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II's ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy's Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles

(Oh the sour smell of scripture abuse. Didn't Peter himself say that all belivers have become "living stones" because of there association with Jesus? (1 Peter 2:4-8 emphasis mine)

The Rev. Sara MacVane of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the document.

"I don't know what motivated it at this time," she said. "But it's important always to point out that there's the official position and there's the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics."

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed "churches" because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed "many elements of sanctification and of truth." But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope — a defect, or a "wound" that harmed them, it said.

"This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an 'internal constitutive principle' of the very existence of a particular church," the commentary said.

Despite the harsh tone of the document, it stresses that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue.

"However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive, it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith," the commentary said. (what about fidelity to Jesus? emphasis mine)

The document, signed by the congregation prefect, U.S. Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul — a major ecumenical feast day.

There was no indication about why the pope felt it necessary to release the document, particularly since his 2000 document summed up the same principles. Some analysts suggested it could be a question of internal church politics, or that it could simply be an indication of Benedict using his office as pope to again stress key doctrinal issues from his time at the congregation.

[cheewiee]

http://news.cheewiee.com/s/ap/20070710/Pope'sStatement

Orlando, In a stunning move Internet poster cheewiee signs an official proclimation calling the Catholic Church head by the Vatican "defective" and not "true" churches. "Although they believe they can trace apostolic succession, they reject the absolute authority in scripture, and place it in traditions of men."

That's what I think about that...

[middletree]

Not only is the Pope's article saddening, but I am also saddened by the fact that this proclamation will not receive as much press as the Liberty University article about Teletubbies.

[bholdj]

That's what I think about that...

That was helarious :D lol!!!!!

I fully believe if it wasn't for God Himself, the work of the Apostles, guys like Augustine, and the glory of Constaintinople, etc. That Christianity would not have survived. So in that sense, the Cathloic faith deserves a lot of credit.

However, im also thankful for guys like Luther who saw the madness in buying salvation and saw the most important scripture in Matthew 16 not that Peter was a rock, but that Christ was the Son of the Living God.

Come on Benidict, that high horse hes on must really hurt :o

[bholdj]

Not only is the Pope's article saddening, but I am also saddened by the fact that this proclamation will not receive as much press as the Liberty University article about Teletubbies.

oh i know. We will also hear im sure more riff raff about gay rights and abortion in the coming year from christians, than we will hear about stuff like this. grrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

[cheewiee]

That was helarious :D lol!!!!! Thank You! Don't forget to tip the wait staff, and I will be here all night...

I fully believe if it wasn't for God Himself, the work of the Apostles, guys like Augustine, and the glory of Constaintinople, etc. That Christianity would not have survived. So in that sense, the Cathloic faith deserves a lot of credit. I don't know... I suppose, but the Orthadox Church did pretty well sans the central Papal Authority...

However, im also thankful for guys like Luther who saw the madness in buying salvation and saw the most important scripture in Matthew 16 not that Peter was a rock, but that Christ was the Son of the Living God.

Come on Benidict, that high horse hes on must really hurt :o

It's sad that people are still bound into religion....

[bholdj]

I don't know... I suppose, but the Orthadox Church did pretty well sans the central Papal Authority...
....

There is a great story about the Orthadox churches. Russian czar Vladamir in the era of Constaintinople wanted Russia to render worship to a ceartin Religion. So he sent represenatives to Jerusalem, Mecca, and Constaintinople.

Well, the reps came back and said "don't pick Judaism because you can't eat red meat." They said about Islam, "don't convert to Islam because you can't drink wine."

As for Christianity in Constaintinople, the reps said "we did not know if we were in heaven or on earth it was so glorious."

Apparently, the Russian czar was so convinced about the description of Christianity in Constaintinople, he brought up christian orthodox churches in Russia.

Pretty cool stuff, might have to do some history book digging to find it, but its there :D

So it seems, Orthodox churches owe a bit of credit to the Cathloic folks in Constaintinople. Its a shame however how the church abused its power.

I wonder what other Cathloics think of this?

[Sam!]

*sigh*

The Tradition Benedict speaks of is it not the buying of indulgences or a works-based salvation. The essence of Tradition is, in the words of some saint or other whose name escapes me at the moment "that which as been believed by all [true believers], in all places, at all times." Guys like Arius called themselves Christians and could "prove" their heresies by scripture. But understanding that there is more to God than can be written in any book (John's own words!), there is a proper way to read scripture. The Roman Church believes that the Church is given the responsibility for safeguarding scripture and interpreting it. Agree or disagree, that's fine, but no Catholic with a good understanding of what is supposed to happen understands any tradition to be greater or above scripture.

[bholdj]

*sigh*

The Tradition Benedict speaks of is it not the buying of indulgences or a works-based salvation. The essence of Tradition is, in the words of some saint or other whose name escapes me at the moment "that which as been believed by all [true believers], in all places, at all times." Guys like Arius called themselves Christians and could "prove" their heresies by scripture. But understanding that there is more to God than can be written in any book (John's own words!), there is a proper way to read scripture. The Roman Church believes that the Church is given the responsibility for safeguarding scripture and interpreting it. Agree or disagree, that's fine, but no Catholic with a good understanding of what is supposed to happen understands any tradition to be greater or above scripture.

Sam,

I may very well be incorrect when i asserted that Cathloic tradition is wrapped around works, indulgences, etc. But any tradition that declares that other christian churches are not true churches or defective because they are not a part of there church is asking for trouble.

I have qualms with the Methodist belief that God saves through prevenient grace. But under no circumstances do I declare the Methodist church "not true" just because I disagree with them.


Any church who adheres to following guidlines in order to engage in worship (must be Cathloic, or another example,can't enter a Mormon Temple, speak in tongues, etc) is walking a tight rope that God may very well save you from, but opens a can of snakes with individuals like myself. Why should I join the Cathloic faith, or become a Mormon and maybe enter a holy temple, or speak in tongues when I can be a Christian and let my faith in Jesus, not my membership to a church, or fidelity to spiritual disciplines determine my salvation?

All that said, I still believe Cathloics deserve a lot of credit for preserving the christian faith. I just have issues with individuals like Benidict who declare other churches untrue just because they are not Cathloic.

[Valpo]

The Roman Church is very much wrapped around a salvation by works. They have no assurace of salvation. They are taught they must go to confession, they must take the eucharist, they must have penance, they must do "good things" and then maybe, or probably, after a final cleaning in purgatory they will be allowed in. The Roman Church's stance is that us out of the Roman Tradition to be saved will either have to "come home" and bow to the Pope and Rome or be saved out of ignorance because we were taught wrong about the Gospel. Sadly, I am not making any of this up. I have had more than one "confessional" Catholic on several occasions tell me that because I do not adhere to the Pope and Rome I am not worshipping Jesus. After an extensive stay in Purgatory and the prayers from Saints and Mary, I will hopefully be let into heaven.

They have not shaken off much of the anti Christian teachings that they held since the Reformation. Indulgences are still real, they are just in different forms. When a Roman Catholic dies the only way a Priest will do the funeral is if they pay for a mass to help this person along in Purgatory and hopefully the intercessions will get them to heaven. This is just one example, there are others. Do not be deceived by recent Vatican Councils that oh so generously call us "fallen brothers" in the faith. The proclamation is exactly what the Roman Church teaches and sadly many Catholics do not know this and putter along doing things they "have to do" in order to be saved, instead of leaning on Christ alone.

[bridges]

Great to see you all in full gallop!

Beautiful userpic Beholdj!

My input? Simply this: "Wow, this Pope sure is messed up."

Peace, y'all.

[middletree]

opens a can of snakes
Did you really say "can of snakes?" :)

[bholdj]

Great to see you all in full gallop!

Beautiful userpic Beholdj!

My input? Simply this: "Wow, this Pope sure is messed up."

Peace, y'all.

the guy is me. The woman is my awesome, totally patient and loving wife :D

[bholdj]

Did you really say "can of snakes?" :)

LOL! Yea, i have a bad habit of changing up phrases like "can of worms" to "can of snakes."

*note to self, stop changing phrases so I can go to the dark side and get cookies :cool: ;) *

[bholdj]

The Roman Church is very much wrapped around a salvation by works. They have no assurace of salvation. They are taught they must go to confession, they must take the eucharist, they must have penance, they must do "good things" and then maybe, or probably, after a final cleaning in purgatory they will be allowed in. The Roman Church's stance is that us out of the Roman Tradition to be saved will either have to "come home" and bow to the Pope and Rome or be saved out of ignorance because we were taught wrong about the Gospel. Sadly, I am not making any of this up. I have had more than one "confessional" Catholic on several occasions tell me that because I do not adhere to the Pope and Rome I am not worshipping Jesus. After an extensive stay in Purgatory and the prayers from Saints and Mary, I will hopefully be let into heaven.

They have not shaken off much of the anti Christian teachings that they held since the Reformation. Indulgences are still real, they are just in different forms. When a Roman Catholic dies the only way a Priest will do the funeral is if they pay for a mass to help this person along in Purgatory and hopefully the intercessions will get them to heaven. This is just one example, there are others. Do not be deceived by recent Vatican Councils that oh so generously call us "fallen brothers" in the faith. The proclamation is exactly what the Roman Church teaches and sadly many Catholics do not know this and putter along doing things they "have to do" in order to be saved, instead of leaning on Christ alone.

The Cathloic faith leans on Jesus's assertion that Peter was a "rock" in the book of Matthew. Yet Peter later declares that all believers are "living stones" (I Pet 2:4-8) because of our association with Christ. To me, that means that Christ built his church on all who follows Him, not just Peter alone.

If anybody has information as to how the Vatican interpets the "living stones" verses I would appreciate it :D :cool: .

[Andi]

Since we are asking about information.....I was once told that the Catholic church considers Mary to be the mediator of our confessions and not Christ. Is there any truth to that statement?

I did not know what has already been posted above about the Catholic faith. Pretty scary...pretty sad.

[DareDevil]

I'm a protestant for a reason...

Anyway, don't make the mistake to think that all Roman Catholics are actually faithful followers of everything the Catholic Church/the pope says and does. In fact I would go so far to say that a lot of Catholics have more protestant values than they know themselves. I know that this sounds strange, but that's how I have experienced most Catholics I've met so far.

[bholdj]

I'm a protestant for a reason...

Anyway, don't make the mistake to think that all Roman Catholics are actually faithful followers of everything the Catholic Church/the pope says and does.

Oh I agree. When Benidict was nominated, a bunch of Cathloic's in Lubbock called a meeting to discuss the "situation." Word had it that they were hoping for a more moderate pope, and Benidict is not even on the same planet with moderate.

[CAfan]

I think Pope Benedict would be better off addressing the out of control pedofile network within his religion instead of covering it up and attacking Christians. Don't get me wrong I do think that we are seeing the lukewarm last days church in much of the protestant church but considering the massive amount of child molestation going on within the catholic religion I think Pope Benedict should remove the plank from his eye before trying to remove the spec from his "brother's".

Sorry to offend any Catholics with my comment. I'm not knocking you personally just a HUGE problem with your religion. I do know some catholics who are more spirit filled than most of the protestants I know so don't think I'm attacking you.

[Evanescence]

True Story:

Most of my family has roots in Catholism and are very proud of their dedication and history in it. Well, my aunt has a daughter who of course was raised Catholic but never fully followed Christ and ran wild for years after turning 16. Finally after literally dozens of boyfriends, bedpartners and parties, she turned her life over to Christ and got born again with her new boyfriend, who was saved. They got engaged and decided to marry. They wanted to marry in thier church...The Assemblies of God. Her mother REFUSED to bless it. We tried lovingly to talk to her about it....she was stubborn and proud. It was disturbing. So, the daughter called her mohters priest, a respected, well seasoned priest of over 50 years. "Please help my mother see what is happening and how much this means to me. Please help our family and help me."

His response was this. "She's right, you must marry in our faith or you're going to hell." The girl said goodbye and hung up. Later, only when her mother was on the verge of death, she submitted and blessed the wedding. A few months later, the girl married and her mother was there. But it really was only because she changed her mind on her death bed. The priest? Well, he has since passed on and remains well respected.....to some.

What always bothered me is how the RCC thinks they have authority over the Bible and over everyone. People take these statements and the pope seriously as if it came from God himself.

To answer an earlier question, yes the RCC believes that praying to saints and/or mary allows the prayer to be intercepted and delivered to Jesus. This is how they justify what some of us would call idol worship.

After recently burying my aunts (same aunt) husband, I was reminded in the catholic service just how deep the religion goes. How it hasn't changed in literally 2000 or so years. And sadly, how many people worship the mass...the service...the religion and not Christ. This doesn't mean that Catholics are doomed to hell...or that they are saved. They're convictions and the extent of Gods grace will be the judge of that.

But to me, the history, bold statements and doctrine tell the tale for me. its a system I won't be a part of. My loyalty is with Christ and his spirit, nothing else.

Sorry if this offends any catholics out there...we're talking about the system, not the people. God bless.

[Gandalf]

Here's an interesting explanation (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288976,00.html) of the document by a Catholic priest.

[SonflowerGurl]

I kind of thought the same thing when I heard the annoucement -- I felt the point was church's that are following their own wishes as opposed to true biblical mandates. Even protestants from denomination to demination disagree but to truly be Christian ...well, it's got to be biblical. There is nothing new about Catholics believing they are the only "denomination" that's legitimate.

[HotWireD]

Here's an interesting explanation (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288976,00.html) of the document by a Catholic priest.

Thank you for the link Gandalf - 'interesting' is right.
This quotient from the introduction to the document puts us into the full context of the five questions and answers the document presents. With these introductory words, the Pope is tipping the reader off to the fact that he is speaking primarily to theologians, and he is making his theological distinctions within a context of highly sophisticated theological debate. One way to understand his academic approach is that if “inside baseball,” so to speak, was to a great extent responsible for the breaking of ecclesial and theological union in centuries past, a full reunion of this sort will require confronting head-on, equally nuanced issues. The Pope considers it necessary for lasting unity to go beyond “sound bite” friendly journalism, when dealing in theological debate, even if he runs the risk of being misunderstood in the short term.

???? I am 44 years old, have qualifications in English and have read books and articles all my life. I have a university level education and....

...I cannot understand what this priest is stating. It appears to be a lot of 'spin' and long words and sentences that complicate the issue rather than clarifying it.

The bolded bit above appears (to me) to say that if the churches are all to unify under the catholic church ('lasting unity'), then straight speaking is required. Therefore stating that all churches other than the catholic church are wrong is the right way to go rather than using sound bite friendly speech.

Any other links to people interpreting this statement would be appreciated.

[middletree]

stating that all churches other than the catholic church are wrong

The Catholics do not have a monopoly on this belief. I have known, over my 42 years, plenty of Baptists, Non-denoms, Lutherans, Pentecostals, and others who also believed they had the one true doctrine.

[HotWireD]

The Catholics do not have a monopoly on this belief. I have known, over my 42 years, plenty of Baptists, Non-denoms, Lutherans, Pentecostals, and others who also believed they had the one true doctrine.

I agree.

The Pope has stated that his church is the only one. I would expect that - if he really believes that then he should state it and try to convert everyone else so that they are saved. He would not be doing his duty to G_d if he does not try to save everyone.

I just get the impression that now he has stated this belief, the catholic church's press office is 'back peddling' and saying he never said that to stop the other churches complaining.

Personally, I know of several Christians in my own town who smile knowingly at people from other churches. they are also sure in the knowledge that they are going to heaven and the 'others' are not.

Wait and see would be my motto on this issue.

[Evanescence]

The Catholics do not have a monopoly on this belief. I have known, over my 42 years, plenty of Baptists, Non-denoms, Lutherans, Pentecostals, and others who also believed they had the one true doctrine.

I agree with this...and wanted to point it out in my reply. Being involved with mennonites, Amish and plenty of other denoms, I have seen this, "We're the only true church" mentality...of course with their spin on the Bible and so forth.

Its called religion and Bible worship. Those that are hung up on doctrinesw, traditions and dogma and not the teachings and spirit of Christ.

There will be no Catholic church in heaven...nor Baptist, Methodists or Amish. Only Christ followers....

If there is, i don't want to be there....:rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes:

[HotWireD]

I read the following in The Times newspaper today. Thursday, July 12 2007. Page 16

Catholic Church
The truth is that none of us knows, or will ever know until we reach the other side, what is the true faith. Simply worship your G_d. He will hear you.
David Drury, York

[Valpo]

Thought some of you, if not all, may find this document interesting:

The President of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod released a statement responding to the document that Pope Benedict XVI has approved.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=12121

[teresaUK]

I just had an interesting chat on msn with a 13 year old catholic gomer this evening.
She asked me what denomination I was..... I said non- denomination....... she posted a sad smilie and said 'so you're not a christian?'

She was very sweet and obviously taking on this new pope's teaching, but we didn't get into a heavy debate and the conversation ended well.............. but this is going to become another wedge to make it more difficult for christians to be united........:(

[ausgirl]

I saw an 'interesting' catholic program recently - I watched it out of curiosity. It was titled Growth in personal holiness vs the culture of death. It involved 15 steps, I wish I had recorded all of them, but I didn't. He commenced by reading a verse from the bible and then quoted interpretations of scripture and quotes from the current and former popes and which we should listen and take heed to.
The list involved things like saying your rosary
* Using icons such as rosary beads, statues of the virgin mary etc to strengthen your belieff
* Going to mass at least once a week, daily if possible.
* Making regular confessions to a priest.
* Reading the writings of former popes.
*Praying to the saints and the virgin for forgiveness.
* Reading the life of one saint per week.
* Reading 5 paragraphs of the catechism daily
* Taking the holy sacriments
* Reading St Faustinas diary.
He actually said, every good catholic family should have copies of and listed off the writings of popes, saints, etc.
It was a list of 15 things, and of the 15, reading the holy scriptures was number 11 down the list. The scriptures he held up when discussing this was a catholic bible, which, has different content to regular bibles.

I was saddened to find the lack of times Jesus was mentioned, in fact, if at all, it was only about once or twice.

Faith by works - you be the judge!

[Pouye]

This is nothing new.

I don't really worry about what the Pope says. I worry about what the Bible says first and foremost -- God's revelation to human kind.

Love the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- and through the power of that loving relationship, love all others through a life of humility and service for the glory of God.

When you die, let God be the judge.

Rock

[sandie]

Amen to that, Rock. I feel the same way.

I'm secure in my relationship with Christ and don't feel the need to defend my own faith, or attack anyone else's. My own life must continue to grow in love towards others, through the power of the Holy Spirit, as a response to God's overwhelming love to me.

Sandra.

[NotMyOwn]

Well at least this declaration of the Pope is not as bad as what he thought in his youth.

[clemsontigers23]

Catholic churches are defective and another one of Satan's tools. There are many who believe the pope will be tied to the anti-Christ in some way and I can see why. As far as I'm concerned, Catholics aren't Christians because they do too many things the Bible says not to do, like practicing idolatry (saints), going to other people for forgiveness of their sins (priests) instead of Jesus, forcing everyone in the congregation to pray the same traditional prayer instead of focusing on one's personal relationship with Christ, adding to the Bible, putting too much emphasis on Mary who was simply an instrument in God's greater plan, etc. I don't look to the pope as a spiritual advisor, but as an agent of Satan.

[Evanescence]

Catholic churches are defective and another one of Satan's tools. There are many who believe the pope will be tied to the anti-Christ in some way and I can see why. As far as I'm concerned, Catholics aren't Christians because they do too many things the Bible says not to do, like practicing idolatry (saints), going to other people for forgiveness of their sins (priests) instead of Jesus, forcing everyone in the congregation to pray the same traditional prayer instead of focusing on one's personal relationship with Christ, adding to the Bible, putting too much emphasis on Mary who was simply an instrument in God's greater plan, etc. I don't look to the pope as a spiritual advisor, but as an agent of Satan.

YIKES! Tough words dude....really tough words. You have some valid points but lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Although we may feel our Christian brothers and sisters may not be worshipping properly....that doesn't mean they are lost or doomed. None of us have it 100% right, so lets have Gods grace play a role and allow him to decide. IMO, the system is flawed and yes if you study scripture it could be said that the RCC will rise again, and be a part of the beast. There are many churches that feel thsi way about the RCC and given their past, political stance, secrecy and money...it could be possible.

This is a tough pill for the proud catholic followers to swallow, but if we feel we are in the end times, we should be vigilant and open to all possibilities. Evem the possibilities that our very own Govt perpetrated 911 :D

[clemsontigers23]

YIKES! Tough words dude....really tough words. You have some valid points but lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Although we may feel our Christian brothers and sisters may not be worshipping properly....that doesn't mean they are lost or doomed. None of us have it 100% right, so lets have Gods grace play a role and allow him to decide. IMO, the system is flawed and yes if you study scripture it could be said that the RCC will rise again, and be a part of the beast. There are many churches that feel thsi way about the RCC and given their past, political stance, secrecy and money...it could be possible.

This is a tough pill for the proud catholic followers to swallow, but if we feel we are in the end times, we should be vigilant and open to all possibilities. Evem the possibilities that our very own Govt perpetrated 911 :D

You can't sugarcoat it. The Catholics have perverted the Word of God and I believe it says in Revelations that if you add to the Word of God you will be destroyed. Pretty tough words from God as well. I don't know if they're saved or not, but they practice idolatry and other sinful practices that God forbids so they are in danger. For the pope to say we are not true churches is downright outrageous. As far as the 9/11 conspiracies, most of them have been disproven by witness accounts, such as those who lost loved ones in those tragedies. I'm not going to disrespect those families by saying they were killed by our own government when they know otherwise.

[Evanescence]

You can't sugarcoat it. The Catholics have perverted the Word of God and I believe it says in Revelations that if you add to the Word of God you will be destroyed. Pretty tough words from God as well. I don't know if they're saved or not, but they practice idolatry and other sinful practices that God forbids so they are in danger. For the pope to say we are not true churches is downright outrageous. As far as the 9/11 conspiracies, most of them have been disproven by witness accounts, such as those who lost loved ones in those tragedies. I'm not going to disrespect those families by saying they were killed by our own government when they know otherwise.

None of us follow the Word 100%. Its subject to interpretation and conviction...freewill, experience and conviction will likley be trumped by Gods grace. Therefore people will be judged differently. Those in charge of this system however, are a different story...IMO...and I may be wrong.

As for 911, see above. The patriotic and respectful thing is to observe and question, not believe the media and Govt. :cool:

[sandie]

Clemsontigers23:There isn't a "they" amongst the Catholics, any more than there is a "we" amongst Protestants, Pentecostals, Orthodox Christians or any other church denomination. God looks at the heart of each person and He knows if they're saved or not. It is not up to any of us to judge. One of the most spiritually mature Christian friends I have is a Charismatic Catholic who loves the Lord and has served him faithfully for many, many years. There are also Catholic Christians here on the Boards.

[clemsontigers23]

Clemsontigers23:There isn't a "they" amongst the Catholics, any more than there is a "we" amongst Protestants, Pentecostals, Orthodox Christians or any other church denomination. God looks at the heart of each person and He knows if they're saved or not. It is not up to any of us to judge. One of the most spiritually mature Christian friends I have is a Charismatic Catholic who loves the Lord and has served him faithfully for many, many years. There are also Catholic Christians here on the Boards.

Read how many ways the Catholic faith directly contradicts the Bible.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

Don't get me started on the myth of "purgatory." I also have a Catholic friend who thinks she can sin all she wants because one day she'll go to purgatory. The pope said your church is not a true church and you're not offended by that?

[middletree]

There isn't a "they" amongst the Catholics... God looks at the heart of each person and He knows if they're saved or not. It is not up to any of us to judge. One of the most spiritually mature Christian friends I have is a Charismatic Catholic

But you're talking about individuals. That doesn't mean that we cannot (or should not) judge the teachings of the Catholic faith itself, to see if it lines up with Scripture. This is exactly the right thing to do (see Acts 17:11 and several other verses). Not only are we allowed to judge teachings, but we are told to do so.

[Gandalf]

Read how many ways the Catholic faith directly contradicts the Bible.
I certainly have disagreements with the RCC on many issues of doctrine, but the Church does include Catholics; there are a great many people who believe in, love, and serve Jesus, and are in the Roman Catholic Church. While there are areas that still need reform, we should be careful about painting with too broad a brush.

[clemsontigers23]

I certainly have disagreements with the RCC on many issues of doctrine, but the Church does include Catholics; there are a great many people who believe in, love, and serve Jesus, and are in the Roman Catholic Church. While there are areas that still need reform, we should be careful about painting with too broad a brush.

Yet they pray to and worship Mary, say she is the mother of God, petition saints for certain things (idolatry), go to priests instead of Jesus to ask for forgiveness, and somehow the priest thinks he has the authority to tell someone if they're forgiven or not. The pope is called the holy father when there is only one called the Holy Father. Scripture commands us not to call anyone among us father for there is only one Father, yet priests are known as fathers. Catholics preach purgatory, one of the most dangerous pieces of doctrine preached, which says that you'll be purged of all of your sins after you die and you'll go to Heaven. For many Catholics, this is an excuse for them to do whatever they want. Priests force those at mass to pray their prayer and they command you pray a certain way, something that prevents a personal relationship with Jesus. Priests baptize babies and believe that makes them saved, when the only thing that makes you saved is confessing to God, not a priest, of your sins and acknowleding Jesus as Lord. It's dangerous to think that being baptized as a baby makes you saved. I don't know if Catholics are saved or not...I'm sure there are Catholics who love the Lord. I do believe, however, that Catholic doctrine is directly contradictory to Biblical teaching and that it is satanic. There's no other way to say it.

[Gandalf]

Catholics preach purgatory, one of the most dangerous pieces of doctrine preached, which says that you'll be purged of all of your sins after you die and you'll go to Heaven. For many Catholics, this is an excuse for them to do whatever they want.
I've heard this argument before, but it doesn't ring true, considering the Catholic believers I know. They're often more dedicated to living righteously than many Protestants are.
I do believe, however, that Catholic doctrine is directly contradictory to Biblical teaching and that it is satanic. There's no other way to say it.
I agree that there are some Catholic doctrines and practices that are incorrect and even unscriptural because they're based in RCC tradition rather than the Bible, but your characterization of their beliefs is not descriptive of what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. They're not the spawn of Satan; they're fellow Christians whom I believe to be mistaken on some issues. Sure, there are too many non-Christian people in the RCC, but there are in Protestant churches too. I'm not defending all of their doctrines here - I strongly disagree with several - but I do think the rhetoric needs to be toned down. These are fellow brethren in Christ that we're talking about, even if the Pope doesn't take such a gracious stance towards other denominations.

[Evanescence]

Yet they pray to and worship Mary, say she is the mother of God, petition saints for certain things (idolatry), go to priests instead of Jesus to ask for forgiveness, and somehow the priest thinks he has the authority to tell someone if they're forgiven or not. The pope is called the holy father when there is only one called the Holy Father. Scripture commands us not to call anyone among us father for there is only one Father, yet priests are known as fathers. Catholics preach purgatory, one of the most dangerous pieces of doctrine preached, which says that you'll be purged of all of your sins after you die and you'll go to Heaven. For many Catholics, this is an excuse for them to do whatever they want. Priests force those at mass to pray their prayer and they command you pray a certain way, something that prevents a personal relationship with Jesus. Priests baptize babies and believe that makes them saved, when the only thing that makes you saved is confessing to God, not a priest, of your sins and acknowleding Jesus as Lord. It's dangerous to think that being baptized as a baby makes you saved. I don't know if Catholics are saved or not...I'm sure there are Catholics who love the Lord. I do believe, however, that Catholic doctrine is directly contradictory to Biblical teaching and that it is satanic. There's no other way to say it.

Son, I will say this. You sure do know a lot about some things at a very young age....and you are correct about most of them. I respect your zeal but would challenge you to keep Gods grace and a persons personal convictions (beliefs) in mind. Again, lets keep the baby but get rid of the bathwater.

Just calling it like I see it...:cool:

[clemsontigers23]

I've heard this argument before, but it doesn't ring true, considering the Catholic believers I know. They're often more dedicated to living righteously than many Protestants are.

I know Catholic believers who believe that because there is a purgatory they can do whatever they want to do. It's extremely dangerous.

I agree that there are some Catholic doctrines and practices that are incorrect and even unscriptural because they're based in RCC tradition rather than the Bible, but your characterization of their beliefs is not descriptive of what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. They're not the spawn of Satan; they're fellow Christians whom I believe to be mistaken on some issues. Sure, there are too many non-Christian people in the RCC, but there are in Protestant churches too. I'm not defending all of their doctrines here - I strongly disagree with several - but I do think the rhetoric needs to be toned down. These are fellow brethren in Christ that we're talking about, even if the Pope doesn't take such a gracious stance towards other denominations.

Of course there are other denominations, such as Jehovah Witness, who say things that are directly contradictory to scripture. I didn't say all Catholics were the spawn of Satan, but I do believe that anything that directly contradicts scripture is satanic in nature. As I said, there are certainly some Catholics who love the Lord and who might be saved. But the fact that they practice idolatry, worship Mary, and go to priests instead of God for forgiveness makes me wonder if they have ever really repented for their sins if they are simply repenting to a priest and not to God. The fact that they baptize babies and say they are saved is simply not true. The fact that priests directly contradict the Lord's command that no man should be called father by calling themselves fathers is blasphemous. The Catholic doctrine simply does not line up with scripture and I question whether many Catholics are really saved.

Son, I will say this. You sure do know a lot about some things at a very young age....and you are correct about most of them. I respect your zeal but would challenge you to keep Gods grace and a persons personal convictions (beliefs) in mind. Again, lets keep the baby but get rid of the bathwater.

Just calling it like I see it...

One of the reasons I'm so passionate about this is because so many people are being deceived. Of course I will show these people grace, but because I do care I'm concerned about their eternal salvation. But thank you for saying that :) .

Besides, if you read the entire quote the pope says that Catholicism is the only way to salvation. I don't think I'm the one being intolerant here.

[sandie]

Read how many ways the Catholic faith directly contradicts the Bible.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

Don't get me started on the myth of "purgatory." I also have a Catholic friend who thinks she can sin all she wants because one day she'll go to purgatory. The pope said your church is not a true church and you're not offended by that?

Nope, I'm not offended. I'm seeing the Lord bring people to spiritual maturity at my church and that's all that matters. What anyone else may say is of no consequence.

[sandie]

But you're talking about individuals. That doesn't mean that we cannot (or should not) judge the teachings of the Catholic faith itself, to see if it lines up with Scripture. This is exactly the right thing to do (see Acts 17:11 and several other verses). Not only are we allowed to judge teachings, but we are told to do so.

James: I object to the attitude that Catholics can't be Christians, or the Pope is the anti-Christ. Clearly, there are Christians in all denominations. Spiritual pride can be a tool of Satan, preventing each of us from seeing the areas in our own lives where we are not allowing the Holy Spirit to change us.

Also, I can't see the point of judging the statement of the Pope. Is he likely to read this thread, and change his mind? I think not.The exercise is pointless. If a Catholic, or anyone else for that matter, wishes to speak to me individually about any issue, I'm happy to speak about my faith and beliefs, and to do so in love, as a witness to my Lord.

[clemsontigers23]

sandie, that's the right attitude to have and I respect you for it. I can assure you there's not spiritual pride, only concern for those who are Catholic.

[Gandalf]

I can assure you there's not spiritual pride, only concern for those who are Catholic.
Insert the word "not" between "are" and "Catholic" and I'm sure the Pope would say the same. :)

[sandie]

sandie, that's the right attitude to have and I respect you for it. I can assure you there's not spiritual pride, only concern for those who are Catholic.

That's good. :) I've met Christians from so many different groups in the 39 years I've been a Christian, and have developed a less critical view than I once had.

What's your name? I'm Sandra.

[clemsontigers23]

That's good. :) I've met Christians from so many different groups in the 39 years I've been a Christian, and have developed a less critical view than I once had.

What's your name? I'm Sandra.

sean.

[Evanescence]

Butthead :D

[clemsontigers23]

Butthead :D

hahaha...:rolleyes: ;)

[Sana Banana]

Hello Everyone,

I am Sana. I used to post a lot on these boards when I was in High School about 5 years ago. I recently came by again.

Yes, I am a Catholic, and I love and follow the teachings of the Church and Pope Benedict. I have a bachelor of arts degree in theology and am working towards my masters.

I take no offense to anything you have all said about Catholicism, for I have read in this thread many common misconceptions about Catholics and what Catholics believe.

I hope to address a few issues, but there are so many ideas people have brought up that one thread may not be enough to address all of them.

The statement released by the Vatican about the Catholic Church being the one true Church simply defined a phrase from the Vatican II council. The Catholic Church has always held that it was established by Christ through the Apostles. It was the early Catholic Church that collected and perserved the writings that became a part of the New Testament canon which was not defined until around the 5th century. All Christians were in the Tradition of the Catholic Church, though there were different rites, and there was also the regretable split between the East and the West. The Catholic Church has always seen itself as the One true Church, and sees Protestant denominations as breaking from that Tradition and thus losing Apostolic Succession.

As for the Church's teaching on the authority to interpret Scripture this is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can be found on the Vatican's website:

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

Someone also mentioned that the Catholic Church does not pay attention to Jesus, which is not true at all. The central focus of Catholicism is on the Eucharist, which we believe is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, the Catholic Church also holds that only a priest ordained in the Apostolic Succession can consecrate the bread and the wine. We believe that Christ acts through the person of the priest in the adminitering of the Sacraments, in the consecration of the Eucharist, in the forgiveness of sins in Reconciliation, and the other Sacraments.

Someone also mentioned that Catholics ask for forgiveness from Mary and the Saints and someone else also mentioned that we worship them. This we do not do. When we pray to saints, we are asking them to intercede for us to God, since they are in Heaven. It is similar to asking a friend on earth to pray for you. We honor the Saints as holy people and models of good Chrisitan living.

I do not have the time to address Mary further, but I have great devotion to her, as she is the Mother of Christ who is God. If you all would like me to address it further I will have more time tomorrow!

Thanks for reading!!
Love,
In Christ,
Sana

[clemsontigers23]

Hello Everyone,

I am Sana. I used to post a lot on these boards when I was in High School about 5 years ago. I recently came by again.

Yes, I am a Catholic, and I love and follow the teachings of the Church and Pope Benedict. I have a bachelor of arts degree in theology and am working towards my masters.

I take no offense to anything you have all said about Catholicism, for I have read in this thread many common misconceptions about Catholics and what Catholics believe.

I hope to address a few issues, but there are so many ideas people have brought up that one thread may not be enough to address all of them.

The statement released by the Vatican about the Catholic Church being the one true Church simply defined a phrase from the Vatican II council. The Catholic Church has always held that it was established by Christ through the Apostles. It was the early Catholic Church that collected and perserved the writings that became a part of the New Testament canon which was not defined until around the 5th century. All Christians were in the Tradition of the Catholic Church, though there were different rites, and there was also the regretable split between the East and the West. The Catholic Church has always seen itself as the One true Church, and sees Protestant denominations as breaking from that Tradition and thus losing Apostolic Succession.

As for the Church's teaching on the authority to interpret Scripture this is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can be found on the Vatican's website:



Someone also mentioned that the Catholic Church does not pay attention to Jesus, which is not true at all. The central focus of Catholicism is on the Eucharist, which we believe is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, the Catholic Church also holds that only a priest ordained in the Apostolic Succession can consecrate the bread and the wine. We believe that Christ acts through the person of the priest in the adminitering of the Sacraments, in the consecration of the Eucharist, in the forgiveness of sins in Reconciliation, and the other Sacraments.

Someone also mentioned that Catholics ask for forgiveness from Mary and the Saints and someone else also mentioned that we worship them. This we do not do. When we pray to saints, we are asking them to intercede for us to God, since they are in Heaven. It is similar to asking a friend on earth to pray for you. We honor the Saints as holy people and models of good Chrisitan living.

I do not have the time to address Mary further, but I have great devotion to her, as she is the Mother of Christ who is God. If you all would like me to address it further I will have more time tomorrow!

Thanks for reading!!
Love,
In Christ,
Sana

What is the Biblical basis for priests being the ones who have authority to forgive people of their sins? Christ is the only one who can intercede for us and ask for our forgiveness, not the saints. Also, the Bible says not to call any among us father, yet you call the priests 'fathers' and you call the pope 'Holy Father' when the only one called 'Holy Father' in the Bible is God Himself by Jesus. Why use saints as models when the only One we should be modeling our lives after is Jesus? Also, honoring Mary and showing devotion to Mary is giving her way too much credit...she was simply used in God's plan, and is not to be worshipped or prayed to...when you are saved by Jesus Christ, you are able to come directly to God and pray for forgiveness of your sins, and God is the only One we should be praying to.

You also did not address the issue of purgatory, which is so un-Biblical it's silly. I say this not with condemnation, but with concern.

[Gandalf]

Hello Everyone,

I am Sana. I used to post a lot on these boards when I was in High School about 5 years ago. I recently came by again.
...

Thanks for reading!!
Love,
In Christ,
Sana
Welcome back, Sana! :)

Thanks for posting to clarify some of the Catholic positions. I was hoping you or MCG would stop by.

[Valpo]

not much clarification, just a re-iteration of the same beliefs it has held for a long time now, so i dont know why any protestant would be offended, i know im not...i know and have complete assurance that I am saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus through my own church and not by some ignorant bliss bc i was presented the gospel incorrectly and i am saved by the roman church anyway only after many years of cleansing in purgatory and many intercessions by the saints and mary. No disrespect to my fellow saints and mary, who is a saint, but my intercessor pleaded His case for me at calvary and upon that rock I stand, and not on top of any man.

[Sana Banana]

What is the Biblical basis for priests being the ones who have authority to forgive people of their sins? Christ is the only one who can intercede for us and ask for our forgiveness, not the saints. Also, the Bible says not to call any among us father, yet you call the priests 'fathers' and you call the pope 'Holy Father' when the only one called 'Holy Father' in the Bible is God Himself by Jesus. Why use saints as models when the only One we should be modeling our lives after is Jesus? Also, honoring Mary and showing devotion to Mary is giving her way too much credit...she was simply used in God's plan, and is not to be worshipped or prayed to...when you are saved by Jesus Christ, you are able to come directly to God and pray for forgiveness of your sins, and God is the only One we should be praying to.

You also did not address the issue of purgatory, which is so un-Biblical it's silly. I say this not with condemnation, but with concern.

Hi,

First of all, I am not going to address all of these issues at once, as there are so many of them and I cannot do justice to them on this thread.

Second, I will only discuss these issues further if you all are willing to be open to understand what the Catholic Church teaches and not attack it with phrases that say: what about this? what about that?

Third, this is a thread about Pope Benedict's statement on the Church, which said that the Catholic Church is the Church and that other denominations are a part of the Church in so far as they share the beliefs of the Catholic Church, and honestly the Church shares many beliefs with most Protestants. i.e. "I believe in God the Father, the Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived my the Virgin Mary," etc. So, maybe this discussion would do better elsewhere.

Fourth, I replied because the thread turned into a Catholic-bashing opportunity where the Pope was called the Anti-Christ and Catholics nonChristians, when the main body of Christians for 1500 years were Catholics, whether Western or Eastern Orthodox. So, please do not judge what you do not understand. And honestly most Catholics do not fully understand Church teaching, i.e. Catholics who think they can sin all they want and just go to purghatory before Heaven.

Fifth, if we are going to discuss these issues I want to start with defining the Catholic understanding of Revelation. Further, I can find Scriptural evidence for every issue that has been brought up, but I need to start with explaining what I believe about Revelation, because the way one approaches Scripture determines the way one will interpret Scripture.

If anyone wishes to continue the discussion with me, please let me know. But the first thing I will be open to discussing is Revelation.

In Christ,
Sana

[middletree]

and not attack it with phrases that say: what about this? what about that?


How does asking those questions constitute an attack?

[Sana Banana]

How does asking those questions constitute an attack?

Sorry,
I mean specifically to stay on one topic before bringing up other ones. i.e. finish discussing the Catholic view on Revelation before talking about reasons for belief in purghatory or calling priests "father".

[Valpo]

well maybe we can start from the top, could you explain the Roman Catholic view concerning why the Pope can and does make statements, and why the Pope is infallible when making such statements (I understand the man himself is not infallible, but the same man can make infallible statements)? Not so much for me, but maybe for others here who are less familiar with catholicism. Then maybe you and I and anyone else really can trade questions and answers.

Solus Christus,
Matt

[Gandalf]

In discussion of Catholic vs Protestant issues, Sana and Matt are correct that the two principle divisions upon which all the other doctrinal differences lie are the issues of revelation and authority within the Church. Discussing doctrinal details can be beneficial with regards to gaining a better understanding of what our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ believe, but agreement on those details will not be reached if the fundamental differences in these two core issues remain.

I suggest that it would probably be most fruitful to stick with one topic per thread (for example, purgatory could be discussed in its own thread, but bringing it up in a thread that's dealing with the more fundamental issue of Church authority would only be a distraction). Otherwise, we're likely to just have chaos and a bunch of unrelated statements being shot past each other without anyone really listening. :) Also, suggestions from either side that the others are not really Christian are not appropriate. Let's all treat everyone else here with respect as fellow members of the body of Christ.

Thanks.

[Evanescence]

Sorry, but I'm not going to have a 21 year old explain things about the Catholic faith. No offense Ms. Sana-Banana, but what you are going to tell us is more than likley the same thing I can read on Wikipedia. You'll probably tell us what you've been taught and what they tell you to tell us, not what you've studied.

For now, I'll watch this one from here.

BTW- No one said the pope was the antichrist...

[Gandalf]

Seems to me a 21 year old Catholic graduate student with a degree in theology would be a better source of information about the Catholic faith than a less informed Protestant of any age. I'm sure she knows more about Catholicism than I do. *shrug*

[sandie]

Yes, agreed, Brian. What she says also ties in with my Catholic friend Peter's beliefs, especially regarding Mary. Perhaps each group makes too many assumptions about the beliefs of other groups.

[middletree]

Yes, agreed, Brian. What she says also ties in with my Catholic friend Peter's beliefs, especially regarding Mary. Perhaps each group makes too many assumptions about the beliefs of other groups.

Not everyone here is basing their statements on assumptions. I have developed my opposition to Catholic teachings based upon conversations with Catholic friends, as well as writings by Catholics. I have personally heard Catholics say that they pray to dead saints. That's not an assumption. What I'd like to hear is an attempt at Scriptural backing for such practices.

[Gandalf]

Not everyone here is basing their statements on assumptions. I have developed my opposition to Catholic teachings based upon conversations with Catholic friends, as well as writings by Catholics. I have personally heard Catholics say that they pray to dead saints. That's not an assumption.
All my Catholic friends have explained their view of the practice exactly as Sana did. I disagree with them on the practice, but every last one has taken the stance that they're asking the dead saints to intercede for them. Considering that the word "pray" literally just means "ask", they're certainly praying to them whichever view you take, but most I've talked to avoid that word, presumably because people attach a connotation of worship to it that they don't intend.
What I'd like to hear is an attempt at Scriptural backing for such practices.
So, start a thread about it... see if any Catholics answer you.

[Sana Banana]

Sorry, but I'm not going to have a 21 year old explain things about the Catholic faith. No offense Ms. Sana-Banana, but what you are going to tell us is more than likley the same thing I can read on Wikipedia. You'll probably tell us what you've been taught and what they tell you to tell us, not what you've studied...

"Let no one despise your youth, but set an example in speech and conduct, in love, in fiath, in purity."-1 Tim 4:12

"Do not say 'I am only a youth'; for to all whom I send you you shall go and whatever I comman you you shall speak."-Jeremiah 1:7

I have had no training in what to "tell you." I just have a passion for the Catholic Church and have felt a call to study the teachings of the Church so that I do not blindly follow what the Magisterium teaches, but that I truly know and understand why I believe what I believe. I am learning Catholic Theology so that I can be able to explain to those who misunderstand what Catholics believe. The more I learn where our beliefs come from and the foundation they stand upon, the more I am convinced of the truth in the Catholic Church. I admit that the people in the Church and not perfect, but I believe that the doctrine that has remained the same throughout the ages is what Christ handed onto the Apostles. The school I go to has the faculty take an oath to be loyal to the teachings of the Magisterium, so what I am learning is what the Church teaches.

Thank you everyone else for supporting me in this.

I will try my best to present Catholic theology as clearly as I can.

Valpo:
well maybe we can start from the top, could you explain the Roman Catholic view concerning why the Pope can and does make statements, and why the Pope is infallible when making such statements (I understand the man himself is not infallible, but the same man can make infallible statements)? Not so much for me, but maybe for others here who are less familiar with catholicism. Then maybe you and I and anyone else really can trade questions and answers.

Solus Christus,
Matt

Actually, this topic falls in line with the Catholic Church's understanding of Revelation. So, starting with that would bring up the topic of infallibility of the Pope speaking "ex cathadra" ("from the chair").

[MadCatholicGomer]

I'm a protestant for a reason...

Anyway, don't make the mistake to think that all Roman Catholics are actually faithful followers of everything the Catholic Church/the pope says and does. In fact I would go so far to say that a lot of Catholics have more protestant values than they know themselves. I know that this sounds strange, but that's how I have experienced most Catholics I've met so far.

I would agree. First of all, I am a faithful Catholic and believe everything that the Church teaches to be true, and though this is not infallible teaching, I do agree with Pope Benedict on this whole issue. You are right that not every Catholic agrees with everything that the Catholic Church teaches.

I also agree that many Catholics have "protestant values." I went to a school that could probably be best described as "evangelical Catholic" fully embracing everything that the Church teaches, but not in a stoic or "works-based-salvation way." It was dynamic, and I saw so many people who were relying on Christ alone for their salvation. We used praise and worship music at Mass and at other events (Festivals of Praise once a month). Many were charismatic. I heard many times homilies about a relationship with Christ. And personally, I LOVE Bible study.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Oh I agree. When Benidict was nominated, a bunch of Cathloic's in Lubbock called a meeting to discuss the "situation." Word had it that they were hoping for a more moderate pope, and Benidict is not even on the same planet with moderate.

Yes... those would be the people who think that abortion is okay, that homosexual sex is okay, and that Christianity is a patriarchal institution.

[MadCatholicGomer]

I think Pope Benedict would be better off addressing the out of control pedofile network within his religion instead of covering it up and attacking Christians. Don't get me wrong I do think that we are seeing the lukewarm last days church in much of the protestant church but considering the massive amount of child molestation going on within the catholic religion I think Pope Benedict should remove the plank from his eye before trying to remove the spec from his "brother's".

Sorry to offend any Catholics with my comment. I'm not knocking you personally just a HUGE problem with your religion. I do know some catholics who are more spirit filled than most of the protestants I know so don't think I'm attacking you.

CAfan, it is being addressed. And by the way, though not as well publicized, the same sorts of things happen in non-Catholic churches as well. So get the plank out of your eye, buddy.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Tr

What always bothered me is how the RCC thinks they have authority over the Bible and over everyone. People take these statements and the pope seriously as if it came from God himself.

To answer an earlier question, yes the RCC believes that praying to saints and/or mary allows the prayer to be intercepted and delivered to Jesus. This is how they justify what some of us would call idol worship.

But to me, the history, bold statements and doctrine tell the tale for me. its a system I won't be a part of. My loyalty is with Christ and his spirit, nothing else.




The Catholic Church is the one who made an authoritative and final decision about what is supposed to be and not supposed to be in the Bible. Otherwise, all you have is a fallible collection of infallible books, as one Protestant theologian put it. The Catholic Church does not believe it is over the Word of God, but that it is its servant.

And no, Evan, we don't believe that the prayers of the Saints are necessary for them to be "intercepted by God" as if we can't pray to God alone. As has been said hundreds of times, the Saints pray for us like a brother or sister still here on earth. Yes, I believe that more people praying for me makes it more likely that my prayer will be heard. Otherwise what is the point of two people praying for anything?

My loyalty is with Christ and His Spirit, and that is why I am a part of His Bride, the Church.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Don't get me started on the myth of "purgatory." I also have a Catholic friend who thinks she can sin all she wants because one day she'll go to purgatory.


Okay. Then your friend totally and completely misunderstands purgatory. Purgatory is not a "Get out of hell free" card. Jesus is our "Get out of hell free" card. He is the one that saves us from our sins and saves us from eternal damnation. We Catholics simply believe that since nothing unclean can enter Heaven, one of the things that God does is cleanses us completely from all our sins and makes His own divine life indwell in our souls. God doesn't just want to forgive our sins, He wants to make us righteous in reality, to be holy as He is holy.

[MadCatholicGomer]

I saw an 'interesting' catholic program recently - I watched it out of curiosity. It was titled Growth in personal holiness vs the culture of death. It involved 15 steps, I wish I had recorded all of them, but I didn't. He commenced by reading a verse from the bible and then quoted interpretations of scripture and quotes from the current and former popes and which we should listen and take heed to.
The list involved things like saying your rosary
* Using icons such as rosary beads, statues of the virgin mary etc to strengthen your belieff
* Going to mass at least once a week, daily if possible.
* Making regular confessions to a priest.
* Reading the writings of former popes.
*Praying to the saints and the virgin for forgiveness.
* Reading the life of one saint per week.
* Reading 5 paragraphs of the catechism daily
* Taking the holy sacriments
* Reading St Faustinas diary.
He actually said, every good catholic family should have copies of and listed off the writings of popes, saints, etc.
It was a list of 15 things, and of the 15, reading the holy scriptures was number 11 down the list. The scriptures he held up when discussing this was a catholic bible, which, has different content to regular bibles.

I was saddened to find the lack of times Jesus was mentioned, in fact, if at all, it was only about once or twice.

Faith by works - you be the judge!

Grrr... things like this irritate me. I feel very out of touch sometimes, because I hear you guys saying one thing about the Catholics that you meet, and the Catholics that I meet and know are, on the whole, completely different... again, what I would call evangelical Catholics. For me, there is no book more important than the Bible, and there is no way to Heaven but Jesus.

[clemsontigers23]

Okay. Then your friend totally and completely misunderstands purgatory. Purgatory is not a "Get out of hell free" card. Jesus is our "Get out of hell free" card. He is the one that saves us from our sins and saves us from eternal damnation. We Catholics simply believe that since nothing unclean can enter Heaven, one of the things that God does is cleanses us completely from all our sins and makes His own divine life indwell in our souls. God doesn't just want to forgive our sins, He wants to make us righteous in reality, to be holy as He is holy.

While I don't believe in purgatory, your answer is encouraging.

Could you give some scripture that supports the idea of purgatory?

[MadCatholicGomer]

Yet they pray to and worship Mary, say she is the mother of God, petition saints for certain things (idolatry), go to priests instead of Jesus to ask for forgiveness, and somehow the priest thinks he has the authority to tell someone if they're forgiven or not. The pope is called the holy father when there is only one called the Holy Father. Scripture commands us not to call anyone among us father for there is only one Father, yet priests are known as fathers. Catholics preach purgatory, one of the most dangerous pieces of doctrine preached, which says that you'll be purged of all of your sins after you die and you'll go to Heaven. For many Catholics, this is an excuse for them to do whatever they want. Priests force those at mass to pray their prayer and they command you pray a certain way, something that prevents a personal relationship with Jesus. Priests baptize babies and believe that makes them saved, when the only thing that makes you saved is confessing to God, not a priest, of your sins and acknowleding Jesus as Lord. It's dangerous to think that being baptized as a baby makes you saved. I don't know if Catholics are saved or not...I'm sure there are Catholics who love the Lord. I do believe, however, that Catholic doctrine is directly contradictory to Biblical teaching and that it is satanic. There's no other way to say it.

I literally hit my head six times after reading the first sentence. For goodness sakes... how many times do Catholics need to say that we don't worship Mary or the Saints before people start believing it? I'll say it again... I don't worship Mary or the Saints! God is the fountain and source of all goodness, holiness, perfection, beauty and truth. By God's grace, the Saints and especially Mary have beauty and holiness and truth and goodness... but we, as well as they, know that it is only because God has given it to them as a gift, that He has shared His very divine life with them (and with us) so that we can be holy as He is holy, so that we can know, love and serve Him in this life and come to be happy with Him in the next.

Oh my goodness so many things wrong on this post. Clemons you misunderstand us in SO many ways. Please, ask questions.. of me, or of someone else who truly knows and love the Catholic Church, before you go off spouting such drivel again.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Welcome back, Sana! :)

Thanks for posting to clarify some of the Catholic positions. I was hoping you or MCG would stop by.


Here I am to save the day... I haven't been on in a while. I should have thought of stopping by when these statements came out. Doh! Oh well, I'm here now, and I'm ready to answer every question (though one at a time, please!)

[clemsontigers23]

I literally hit my head six times after reading the first sentence. For goodness sakes... how many times do Catholics need to say that we don't worship Mary or the Saints before people start believing it? I'll say it again... I don't worship Mary or the Saints! God is the fountain and source of all goodness, holiness, perfection, beauty and truth. By God's grace, the Saints and especially Mary have beauty and holiness and truth and goodness... but we, as well as they, know that it is only because God has given it to them as a gift, that He has shared His very divine life with them (and with us) so that we can be holy as He is holy, so that we can know, love and serve Him in this life and come to be happy with Him in the next.

Oh my goodness so many things wrong on this post. Clemons you misunderstand us in SO many ways. Please, ask questions.. of me, or of someone else who truly knows and love the Catholic Church, before you go off spouting such drivel again.

A couple of questions, then:

The Bible says that we shouldn't call any among us "father"...yet priests are called "father" and the Pope is called the "Holy Father"...in the Bible, the only One called Holy Father is God Himself. How can you explain such a direct contradiction to scripture?

Like I already asked, do you have any scripture backing up the theory of purgatory?

[MadCatholicGomer]

"Let no one despise your youth, but set an example in speech and conduct, in love, in fiath, in purity."-1 Tim 4:12

"Do not say 'I am only a youth'; for to all whom I send you you shall go and whatever I comman you you shall speak."-Jeremiah 1:7

I have had no training in what to "tell you." I just have a passion for the Catholic Church and have felt a call to study the teachings of the Church so that I do not blindly follow what the Magisterium teaches, but that I truly know and understand why I believe what I believe. I am learning Catholic Theology so that I can be able to explain to those who misunderstand what Catholics believe.... The school I go to has the faculty take an oath to be loyal to the teachings of the Magisterium, so what I am learning is what the Church teaches.


Ah yes! A fellow Steubie! Welcome.

[MadCatholicGomer]

A couple of questions, then:

The Bible says that we shouldn't call any among us "father"...yet priests are called "father" and the Pope is called the "Holy Father"...in the Bible, the only One called Holy Father is God Himself. How can you explain such a direct contradiction to scripture?

Like I already asked, do you have any scripture backing up the theory of purgatory?

Clemsons, I'd like you to do a small little Bible study. Use your concordance and see how many times St. Paul talks about being a father or St. Paul talks about someone being his "child" in the New Testament. All of these references are to spiritual fatherhood in Christ Jesus. Do you think St. Paul contradicts Jesus' command? What we Catholics do is no different from that.

[clemsontigers23]

Clemsons, I'd like you to do a small little Bible study. Use your concordance and see how many times St. Paul talks about being a father or St. Paul talks about someone being his "child" in the New Testament. All of these references are to spiritual fatherhood in Christ Jesus. Do you think St. Paul contradicts Jesus' command? What we Catholics do is no different from that.

The Bible's a pretty big book. Think you could narrow it down a little, you know, like a specific piece of scripture? ;)

[MadCatholicGomer]

The Bible's a pretty big book. Think you could narrow it down a little, you know, like a specific piece of scripture? ;)


1 Cor. 4:14-15 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

2 Tim. 2:1-2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin

These are just a couple of examples of St. Paul and St. John calling themselves a father or other their "children."

[clemsontigers23]

1 Cor. 4:14-15 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

2 Tim. 2:1-2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin

These are just a couple of examples of St. Paul and St. John calling themselves a father or other their "children."

Thanks. I see your point. Can't argue with that.

[bvc]

I can. Paul begat them through the preaching of the gospel to salvation and was an apostle verifying the word and the cross of Christ with demonstration of power. I don't see any connection to the RCC....

[bvc]

I should add that while the doctrine of the laying on of hands is a doctrine of Christ, the RCC's apostolic succession doctrine is not.

[Valpo]

Hebrews 11

MCG, or Sana whoever, or certainly both:

You clearly believe in a so called saving faith, but why is it that the Roman Catholic Church teaches faith + works=salvation. I have also been told by many confessional Roman Catholics that there is this idea that we can be saved indirectly through the church. Those who have never believed in the name of Jesus can be saved because they have good works all on account of some either being ignorant or being presented the Gospel incorrectly. Or for example I was told I or any other protestant can be saved because hopefully we've been presented the Gospel incorrectly and with the help of Mary and the Saints petitioning to Jesus. Please expound upon this and why I have to submit to the Papacy and Rome in order to be ultimately saved, unless of course I am saved by ignorance and the petitions of the saints and mary.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Hebrews 11

MCG, or Sana whoever, or certainly both:

You clearly believe in a so called saving faith, but why is it that the Roman Catholic Church teaches faith + works=salvation. I have also been told by many confessional Roman Catholics that there is this idea that we can be saved indirectly through the church. Those who have never believed in the name of Jesus can be saved because they have good works all on account of some either being ignorant or being presented the Gospel incorrectly. Or for example I was told I or any other protestant can be saved because hopefully we've been presented the Gospel incorrectly and with the help of Mary and the Saints petitioning to Jesus. Please expound upon this and why I have to submit to the Papacy and Rome in order to be ultimately saved, unless of course I am saved by ignorance and the petitions of the saints and mary.

Anyone who teaches that salvation comes by anything besides God's grace is a heretic and should be kicked out of the Church. Jesus said that He is the Way, Truth, and Life and that there is no way to the Father except through Him, and I believe and teach that (as a Catholic school teacher).

To be in Christ is to be in the Church. If you are in Christ and His grace, than you are in His body, the Church. However, to reject the Church with full knowledge and consent is to reject Christ. Therefore, those who reject the Church knowing it to be the Church that Jesus established cannot enter Heaven, because they are in reality rejecting Jesus as surely as Judas did.

[truster]

Grrr... things like this irritate me. I feel very out of touch sometimes, because I hear you guys saying one thing about the Catholics that you meet, and the Catholics that I meet and know are, on the whole, completely different... again, what I would call evangelical Catholics. For me, there is no book more important than the Bible, and there is no way to Heaven but Jesus.


MCG, it's good to see you enter this discussion.

I must say, the Catholics I know from my hometown and the Catholics I know from Baylor seem as different as those you speak of in this post. In Henderson, it seems like a complacent, "as long as I do good works I'll be fine" type of stuff that they believe just because they've been raised that way. However, at Baylor, the Catholics seem much more... evangelical, as you put it. They are much more grounded in their faith, and even though they don't know scriptures that well, they can pretty well explain their faith.

To summarize, Baylor has really opened my eyes to another side of Catholicism.


(which you wouldn't expect, with Baylor being a "Baptist" university... but after all, Catholics are the second largest denomination [or whatever] at BU).

--Matthew

[Valpo]

To be in Christ is to be in the Church. If you are in Christ and His grace, than you are in His body, the Church. However, to reject the Church with full knowledge and consent is to reject Christ. Therefore, those who reject the Church knowing it to be the Church that Jesus established cannot enter Heaven, because they are in reality rejecting Jesus as surely as Judas did.

so then, because I believe the church is invisible and not a visible representation in the manifestation of rome, yet still love Jesus with all my heart, mind, and soul am I going to hell, or have I been presented the Gospel incorrectly and hopefully the saints, and mary can petition on my behalf to save me? I'll be truthful and blunt with you since you have given us the same respect and am going to say I do not for one minute think the works based salvation of the Roman Catholic Church is the church that Christ set up. The word works is touchy though and you all like to wrap it up under another name such as charity or charitable. Unfortunately having to do things in order to hopefully be sure of your salvation is works based. I understand the RCC teaches saved by grace but one HAS TO also pray the rosary, go to confession, give money for sins (indulgences, and yes they're still around today), and what's worse submit to a man (The Bishop of Rome). If he is solely Christ's Vicar on earth then explain why the council at constance deposed of three popes and elected the fourth? That certainly does not line up with RCC doctrine concerning the office of the papacy. My overwhelming issue is this that your church body teaches that Christians cannot be saved unless they are obedient and submit to him in all things. That is placing an allegiance to a man above God. My allegiance lies solely with God and not man. So to say I need to "come home" to Rome and or rely upon the intercessions of the Saints and Mary to save me is placing the work(s) of man above the work of God which was Jesus Christ upon that tree.

[blacksheep]

Originally Posted by MadCatholicGomer
To be in Christ is to be in the Church. If you are in Christ and His grace, than you are in His body, the Church. However, to reject the Church with full knowledge and consent is to reject Christ. Therefore, those who reject the Church knowing it to be the Church that Jesus established cannot enter Heaven, because they are in reality rejecting Jesus as surely as Judas did.

The Church you are talking about, is that equivalent to the RCC? I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that backs up what you are talking about if that is the case. Protestant or Catholic.

1 Corinthians 1:10-17

10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.



I've always read that section in the context of this debate, though I could be wrong and I could see how the other side would use it. That's just it though, we are not meant to have sides. I have never in my life said that being Catholic is the nonequivalent to being a Christian. But, if I disagree with certain doctrines of the RCC, or that any one man should be given so much authority and respect by other men as the Pope is given on spiritual matters, how does that make me less of a follower of Christ? And that is Paul's point, in my opinion. I was baptized in the name of Christ, not the name of the RCC.

[Evanescence]

MCG a few comments and questions:

You said this in regards to CaFans comment about the child molestation problem and cover up:

CAfan, it is being addressed. And by the way, though not as well publicized, the same sorts of things happen in non-Catholic churches as well. So get the plank out of your eye, buddy.

First of all, to tell someone to get the plank out of their eye in a situation like this is insulting. The ratio or percentage of Protestant churches with problems such as this, versus Catholic churches is not even close. This is a HUGE problem and ya'll got to quit making excuses for it. Peoples lives are being ruined because of this and the coverup is beyond disturbing.

The reason why its happening is due to an abuse of the scripture. Paul doesn't command Pastors NOT to marry. While perhaps originally noble, it is not even close to applicable today. This NEEDS to be changed or else the problem will continue. The rule of priests not marrying attracts people with sexual issues looking to suppress them....and what happens is just the opposite. The very same with nuns.

Sex is a nature thing and IS necessary for healthy living. This has been proven. What we have is people suppressing these feelings which leads to a frusterated, angry, sick and jealous person. This isn't in ALL cases, but enough that it is a HUGE problem. Pointing this out isn't casting stones, its addressing a problem. A problem that it so big it spans generations and around the globe. I personally think life in prison would fix some of the problems.

The Catholic Church is the one who made an authoritative and final decision about what is supposed to be and not supposed to be in the Bible. Otherwise, all you have is a fallible collection of infallible books, as one Protestant theologian put it. The Catholic Church does not believe it is over the Word of God, but that it is its servant.

And no, Evan, we don't believe that the prayers of the Saints are necessary for them to be "intercepted by God" as if we can't pray to God alone. As has been said hundreds of times, the Saints pray for us like a brother or sister still here on earth. Yes, I believe that more people praying for me makes it more likely that my prayer will be heard. Otherwise what is the point of two people praying for anything?


While I agree that the RCC doesn't believe its necessary, you do practice and teach it.....its almost as if it IS important....not a choice but something that must be done. It's taught in CCD, which i am familar with. I am EX-catholic.

I did say soemthing inaccurate when i said that the RCC feels it has authority over scripture. But it does feel it is an authority along with scripture and can override scripture if necessary. There are a lot of quotes from Catholic popes and Bishops along these lines. Most notably, changing of the Sabbath. While I do have contexual and historical issues with the Bible, I don't feel the church can change Gods laws.

Okay. Then your friend totally and completely misunderstands purgatory. Purgatory is not a "Get out of hell free" card. Jesus is our "Get out of hell free" card. He is the one that saves us from our sins and saves us from eternal damnation. We Catholics simply believe that since nothing unclean can enter Heaven, one of the things that God does is cleanses us completely from all our sins and makes His own divine life indwell in our souls. God doesn't just want to forgive our sins, He wants to make us righteous in reality, to be holy as He is holy.

This was your response to the question on purgatory.

I have a $1,000 reward for anyone who can provide scriptural proof of the existence of Purgatory. Its a man made idea and extremely destructive at that. It was and is still used as a means of collecting money by using guilt, shame and manipulation as a weapon against the sinner. Simony....paying for the removal of sins and/or time in purgatory is NOT scriptural and still goes on to this day. Although not much in the USA, the Catholic church surely knows this and ignors it. Proof? My mothers family lives in Panama. Indulgences and Simony are still practices there and are very common.

This practice teaches the Christian he can buy his way out...yes, the get out of jail free card. This needs to be addressed and changed. It has caused man to continue to sin with the idea he can buy his way out.

[I literally hit my head six times after reading the first sentence. For goodness sakes... how many times do Catholics need to say that we don't worship Mary or the Saints before people start believing it? I'll say it again... I don't worship Mary or the Saints! God is the fountain and source of all goodness, holiness, perfection, beauty and truth. By God's grace, the Saints and especially Mary have beauty and holiness and truth and goodness... but we, as well as they, know that it is only because God has given it to them as a gift, that He has shared His very divine life with them (and with us) so that we can be holy as He is holy, so that we can know, love and serve Him in this life and come to be happy with Him in the next./QUOTE]

This depends on what your definition of WORSHIP is. Idol worship is a big deal to God...its talked about dozens of times in the Bible. While I do not feel that reciting the Hail Mary is worship, praying DIRECTLY to saints, the dead and Mary IS. You are praying to someone other than God. It is spoken about in the Bible enough times that ya'll should know better.

I have a challenge for you and any other Catholics out there. Go to your priest and tell him your conviction has changed and that you feel its a sin to pray to Mary. To you, Mary is simply an important person in the Trinity, but nothing more. Tell him you will never pray to her or anyone but God ever again. I bet he'll try to talk you out of it, or tell you its wrong NOT to.

The doctrine of Mary is another man-made doctrine with no Biblical basis. In fact, its hard to defend it as God is SO clear about NOT praying or worshipping things (people) other than God.

I will say that i understand peoples convictions on this issue and pray God does too. But I'd be careful how you defend this. The Bible is very clear on it. Praying to the dead and things other than God is forbidden.

[QUOTE]Clemsons, I'd like you to do a small little Bible study. Use your concordance and see how many times St. Paul talks about being a father or St. Paul talks about someone being his "child" in the New Testament. All of these references are to spiritual fatherhood in Christ Jesus. Do you think St. Paul contradicts Jesus' command? What we Catholics do is no different from that.

1 Cor. 4:14-15 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

2 Tim. 2:1-2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin

These are just a couple of examples of St. Paul and St. John calling themselves a father or other their "children."



I agree this is nit-picking. Too many Protestants make abig deal of this. Christ did make mention of it....as well as not having titles period. So, us protestants giving and/or calling our pastors, pastor or reverend could be forbidden as well. Here's an example of "take the plank out of your eye." To me, calling a father, father is no big deal.

Now, one last comment:

The Bible is very clear on HOW to worship. Christ was clear about NOT using mindless chants and responses, yet the RCC has done this for centuries. It seems to be all about the beauty of the mass.....the service and the religion. The service is so mindless, the sermons short and the service repetitive and unfulfilling.

Whats your response to the fact that Jesus explained how NOT to worship...yet the RCC worships in this very fashion?

Thanks, E

[clemsontigers23]

There's something I feel very strongly about...baptizing babies. A baptism is supposed to be a turning point in a person's life and proof that the person is saved...many Catholics I know believe they are saved because they got baptized as a child, yet how can a baby accept Jesus as their personal Savior?

This is very troubling to me and I know people who have been baptized as babies yet I'm not so sure they have ever accepted Jesus into their hearts.

Also, E made a good point with leading the prayers and the chants and such. A person I know went to a Catholic service and was insulted that they were trying to force her to pray their way and not her own. I do believe the Catholic Church prevents a person from having a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Gandalf]

There's something I feel very strongly about...baptizing babies. A baptism is supposed to be a turning point in a person's life and proof that the person is saved...many Catholics I know believe they are saved because they got baptized as a child, yet how can a baby accept Jesus as their personal Savior?

This is very troubling to me and I know people who have been baptized as babies yet I'm not so sure they have ever accepted Jesus into their hearts.
There are plenty of people who attend Protestant churches who may not be saved, too. I don't think it's really so important for us to know where other people stand with God.
I do believe the Catholic Church prevents a person from having a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I'm quite certain that's not true ... I know several Catholics who, I'm quite sure, have a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We also have several Catholics who post on the boards here who do. It may not be presented/encouraged in a manner that appeals to you personally, but that doesn't mean it's not real for them, and certainly not that the RCC prevents it. I have my disagreements with some doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church (foremost, its claim of Roman/papal primacy) to be sure, but they are a part of the Church as a whole just as any other denomination is, and they don't prevent people from being Christian.

It's fine to discuss (calmly, rationally, and politely) differences of opinion on doctrinal, organizational, or other Church issues here, but saying that a denomination "prevents a person from having a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ" is quite an extreme accusation that we probably shouldn't be making against our fellow members in Christ's body.

[clemsontigers23]

There are plenty of people who attend Protestant churches who may not be saved, too. I don't think it's really so important for us to know where other people stand with God.

I'm quite certain that's not true ... I know several Catholics who, I'm quite sure, have a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. We also have several Catholics who post on the boards here who do. It may not be presented/encouraged in a manner that appeals to you personally, but that doesn't mean it's not real for them, and certainly not that the RCC prevents it. I have my disagreements with some doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church (foremost, its claim of Roman/papal primacy) to be sure, but they are a part of the Church as a whole just as any other denomination is, and they don't prevent people from being Christian.

It's fine to discuss (calmly, rationally, and politely) differences of opinion on doctrinal, organizational, or other Church issues here, but saying that a denomination "prevents a person from having a true and personal relationship with Jesus Christ" is quite an extreme accusation that we probably shouldn't be making against our fellow members in Christ's body.

Honestly, I think this is rational discussion. It was an honest concern that I have and I am hoping someone will address it.

I know there are Protestants who aren't saved, but to baptize babies and say they are saved is very dangerous, do you not agree? If you don't, then this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. To become saved and baptized is supposed to be the most memorable moment of our lives, the day we received Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Why take this opportunity away from this child by baptizing the child when they are just an infant who can't fathom what's going on? I think baptism is a powerful experience that should be a choice, not a ritual or tradition.

[Gandalf]

The topic of baptism is certainly one that can be discussed. This thread (http://thirdday.com/boards/showthread.php?t=86785&highlight=baptize) has already covered it in quite a bit of detail, but if you have more to add you can resurrect it or start a new thread for a new question. Not trying to squelch that topic. Just trying to make sure we don't go to the same extent in the other direction as some have (mis-?)interpreted the pope of doing, in saying that those of other denominations within the Church are either not Christians, or are somehow second-rate citizens of God's kingdom. Neither is the case on either side.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Grrr... I have already tried to respond twice, and both times it didn't go through. Now I have to rewrite it again. I'll do it tomorrow.

[Valpo]

here's a confessional Lutheran standing up for catholicism......egats get this framed! haha

clemsontigers23: you show a complete ignorance for the practice of infant baptism by saying that the RCC says one is saved when they are baptized. it is to my knowledge that they do not say that and obviously allow room for those to fall by the way side according to free will to sin. I am actually defending infant baptism bc the Lutheran Church and other churches baptize infants as well and not because we think we are ensuring salvation that way. I encourage you to read the thread Gandalf provided to see all sides, and read what I said, Youthwker, and Kyle's Dad said to get a better understanding for baptism concerning infants. I love discussions, but please be educated on the topic before thrashing it.

[Evanescence]

Baptism:

Catholics and Lutherans Baptize babies...

They baptize babies, then when the child is old enough to make the full commitment, they are confirmed...or they RE-affirm their Baptismal vows. In most cases they are sprinkled with water. I was.

So, is confirmation considered Baptism? Is sprinkling of water the same as emmersion? Is it the commitment...in the heart or is it a symbol...a religious symbol? Do you HAVE to say BORN AGAIN for it to count?

I'm not sold either way...I am thinking that either way can count. Its in the heart. But I may be wrong.

MCG, Looking forward to your comments....

[Valpo]

Lutherans see baptism as something one lives in everyday. Since in baptism we are baptized into the death and resurrection of Jesus Chris, thus sharing in God's promises, that is something we ought to live in every day of our life. We do not teach that it is a one time public show or display. So when I was confirmed I was not doing a one time renweal of my baptism but simply agreeing to be confirmed in the faith I had been given at baptism, choosing not to reject, although some do after confirmation anyway, but that's the world and the sin we live in. Again, the idea is that no man can undo the will of God and that if a Pastor, or anyone certainly or especially in times of emergency, baptizes in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and seals them with the promises of God, that mustard seed has been planted, but certainly peoplem regrettably fall away and reject that promise just as the Jews who were circumsized reject that promise. (I must look like a shizophrenic here in the other thread I said I would not get into it, yet here I am, you're a good journalist E). Although truthfully you're asking in a respectful manner and not in a demonic manner, which is why it may be easier to answer you.

[Evanescence]

(I must look like a shizophrenic here in the other thread I said I would not get into it, yet here I am, you're a good journalist E). Although truthfully you're asking in a respectful manner and not in a demonic manner, which is why it may be easier to answer you.


I re-wrote my response twice...just for you old pal....

I'm getting goose bumps from all the love...:P

[MadCatholicGomer]

Child Molestation: All I have to say, Ev., is prove it. Using an irrefutable source, prove that child molestation is: a. significantly higher in the Catholic Church than in other denominations which commonly allow married clergy b. cause by celibacy.

All that would have happened had the Church allowed priests to be married is that we would have married molestors, which means there own children would have been at risk too. Having sex does not heal people of perversions such as pedophilia. A person who had been healthy before commiting his life to celibacy would not have taken frustration out on children; living it out on children shows there is something latent there that was already very wrong.

Celibacy: And by the way, Matthew 19. Jesus said that celibacy is superior, and I have yet to hear a SINGLE non-Catholic say that celibacy for the sake of God's kingdom is superior to marriage. We aren't the ones being unbiblical, you are.

Authority over Scripture: The Catholic Church has never taught that it has the authority to do things that are contrary to Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God, and anything that contradicts it is wrong. However, the Church does feel it has the authority to interpret Scripture, and it does not believe that everything it does needs to be explicitly contained in Scripture.

Purgatory: If people misunderstand it, than they need to be taught the truth. Purgatory, when understood properly, has nothing to do with letting people get away with commiting lots of sins. In fact, that sounds like these people are commiting an additional sin, the sin of presumption, which is the sin that believes that God will give one the time in which to repent; in other words, it is the attitude of, "I can always repent later." But "Behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, today is the day of salvation."

There is no passage, as you know, that explicitly speaks of purgatory. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 and 2 Macc. 12:45-46 are the most often used to give biblical evidence for purgatory. I know you disagree with the interpretation of 1 Cor. and I know you don't accept 2 Macc. Any Scripture I throw out there you will disagree with the possibility of it being interpreted in favor of purgatory, so what is the point?

And yes, of course, indulgences still exist in the legitimate fashion that they should have existed when Luther was around. If they are abused, it should be reported. And by the way, third hands accounts from your family is NOT proof. But I don't doubt that it does happen from time to time. People need to be taught and they need to be corrected. It doesn't mean that indulgences or purgatory is false.

Saints and Mary: Let me give you an analogy Ev. Let's say a person goes to a pastor and says to him, "I am convinced that it is absolutely wrong and forbidden to ask other Christians to pray for me. I would be commiting a sin if I asked another Christian to pray for me." What do you think the Pastor would do? He would try to convince him that he was completely mistaken.

Again, we do not worship Saints. I understand how, for you guys, asking someone who is dead through prayer looks comparable to praying to God. For us, worship means this: sacrifice. We sacrifice to God alone, for He is God.

Mary and the Saints are God's masterpieces and our brothers and sisters. We look to them as examples and we seek their intercession, but again, we recognize that they are not the

Repetitive worship: Jesus was a Jew. Every year, except that last one, He prayed the Passover and all the other religious festivals the way that the Jews always had. There is no evidence that He changed everything, besides changing the Passover at His Last Supper. Does that mean His worship at those times was meaningless or forbidden? Of course not.

Jewish prayer, and Catholic prayer, is liturgical. It should be done in spirit and in truth, which means concentrating and really praying the prayers. Mindless and repetitive prayer, not from the heart, can happen in non-Catholic churches too. In my experience, this is what a non-Catholic prayer often sounds like:

"Father, we just thank you for bringing us together this evening. We ask you to open our hearts and minds so that we can hear your word and obey. God, I just pray for all of those who may be hurting here; lay your healing hand upon them. And Lord, may we do everything tonight to praise and honor you. In Jesus' name. Amen."

I'm not saying that when people pray like that it is wrong. It is wrong if it is done mindlessly and without really trying to pray it. The same is true with Catholic prayer. We are supposed to be praying the prayers, not just saying them.

Is "I love you" vain and mindless repetition when said from husband to wife?

[middletree]

Child Molestation: All I have to say, Ev., is prove it. Using an irrefutable source, prove that child molestation is: a. significantly higher in the Catholic Church than in other denominations which commonly allow married clergy b. cause by celibacy.


I'm with you on this.

And by the way, Matthew 19. Jesus said that celibacy is superior, and I have yet to hear a SINGLE non-Catholic say that celibacy for the sake of God's kingdom is superior to marriage.

That's because Jesus doesn't say it's superior. He says it's superior for those individuals who have been called to it. One can still be part of God's kingdom and be married.

[MadCatholicGomer]

I'm with you on this.



That's because Jesus doesn't say it's superior. He says it's superior for those individuals who have been called to it. One can still be part of God's kingdom and be married.

The Church teaches that celibacy is a superior calling. I agree, and I don't feel called to celibacy. It is superior because Christian marriage is a natural calling (since even non-Christians feel called to it) in which God's grace is infused, whereas celibacy is a supernatural calling, since it is not natural to us. Very few people "want" to be celibate... even of priests and religious. In fact, not desiring to get married (to a person of the opposite sex) or have children is a pretty sure sign that a person does not have a vocation to the priesthood or religious. It is supposed to be sacrificing their natural desires for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

[clemsontigers23]

1 Cor 3:12-15

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

You're right, I don't see how that supports the idea of purgatory, but I can see how it could be interpreted to support it. To me, this is saying build your foundation on the cornerstone of Christ, as worldly things will one day perish in the flames, while the saved soul will escape the flames and be welcomed into Paradise.

I've never seen 2 Macc. in a Bible, so you're right, for now I don't accept the book as scripture.

On the subject of celibacy, middletree is right. It's for those who are called to be so:

Matthew 19:11-12

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Almost in the same breath, Jesus says this to say that marriage is good as well and was the way God intended it for many:

Matthew 19:3-4

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

As far as prayer goes, I just talk to God. No recited prayers...just talk and praise. Nothing complicated...like talking to a friend or parent, only with a lot of respect and love. I think recited prayers are a lot more meaningless than simply talking to God, but that's just me.

[MadCatholicGomer]

As far as prayer goes, I just talk to God. No recited prayers...just talk and praise. Nothing complicated...like talking to a friend or parent, only with a lot of respect and love. I think recited prayers are a lot more meaningless than simply talking to God, but that's just me.

So then of course you would NEVER pray anything from the Bible. Always in your own words, right? The value of liturgical "set prayers" is that the whole Church is praying for the same thing. Obviously there must be some value in this, or else no pastor or small group leader would EVER lead a prayer for the whole group. Think about it. What is the point of saying a prayer out loud for a group? Is there value, or should we ALWAYS pray silently just so that it can be "authentic"?

I'm not saying that personal prayer is bad or a negative. It's not, of course! Only that what Jesus condemns is mindless prayer.

[danbos]

Hey MCG, about purgatory...wouldn't a belief in purgatory be saying that Jesus really didn't do much on the cross? Why should people have to suffer in purgatory, if Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins? I'm just curious as to what you believe about this.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Hey MCG, about purgatory...wouldn't a belief in purgatory be saying that Jesus really didn't do much on the cross? Why should people have to suffer in purgatory, if Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins? I'm just curious as to what you believe about this.

Danbos, that is a great question, and thank you for asking it so respecfully.

The truth is that every growth in holiness, every cleansing from sin, every growth in righteousness (see Hebrews 12:7-13), comes to us through Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are made holy, as God is holy, by God's grace... He is building us up and making us His children not only in name but in what we really are. That is why we are a new creation.... we aren't just CALLED something new, but we are really made something new.

When we grow in holiness through our cooperation with God, it is only because we are being united more perfectly with what Jesus did on the cross and with His Resurrection. And by the way, even our cooperation with grace is a gift from God.

[clemsontigers23]

So then of course you would NEVER pray anything from the Bible. Always in your own words, right? The value of liturgical "set prayers" is that the whole Church is praying for the same thing. Obviously there must be some value in this, or else no pastor or small group leader would EVER lead a prayer for the whole group. Think about it. What is the point of saying a prayer out loud for a group? Is there value, or should we ALWAYS pray silently just so that it can be "authentic"?

I'm not saying that personal prayer is bad or a negative. It's not, of course! Only that what Jesus condemns is mindless prayer.

Woah, I never said I never pray from the Bible and I never said that there's anything at all wrong with pastors leading prayer.

I totally agree with you here...my point is that a lot of people who have attended mass who are non-Catholic complained that they were restricted by the chanting that the priest induced. Most complaints with the Catholic faith, even by Catholics, is that there's too much tradition and rituals that are performed and it does sometimes hinder a person spiritually. I'm just voicing things that people have told me and complaints that people have.

I also actually do pray silently while the pastor leads us in prayer, but I'm basically repeating what he says with maybe some things added on. I do believe it makes it more personal when it's coming from my mind as well.

Anyways, now I'm just rambling, but I hope you understand that this is a complaint many people have about the Catholic Church...my cousin was forced to convert to Catholicism before he was allowed to get married in a Catholic cathedral because his wife is Catholic. In my opinion the Church as a whole is too legalistic...I know there are Protestant churches like this, but not nearly as organized as the Catholic Church.

Also, the fact that Catholics have to go to confession before a priest and the priest tells them their sins are forgiven...correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person with that authority in the Bible was Jesus. A priest shouldn't be telling a person whether or not they are forgiven...that is up to God.

[MadCatholicGomer]

Woah, I never said I never pray from the Bible and I never said that there's anything at all wrong with pastors leading prayer.

I totally agree with you here...my point is that a lot of people who have attended mass who are non-Catholic complained that they were restricted by the chanting that the priest induced. Most complaints with the Catholic faith, even by Catholics, is that there's too much tradition and rituals that are performed and it does sometimes hinder a person spiritually. I'm just voicing things that people have told me and complaints that people have.

I also actually do pray silently while the pastor leads us in prayer, but I'm basically repeating what he says with maybe some things added on. I do believe it makes it more personal when it's coming from my mind as well.

Anyways, now I'm just rambling, but I hope you understand that this is a complaint many people have about the Catholic Church...my cousin was forced to convert to Catholicism before he was allowed to get married in a Catholic cathedral because his wife is Catholic. In my opinion the Church as a whole is too legalistic...I know there are Protestant churches like this, but not nearly as organized as the Catholic Church.

Also, the fact that Catholics have to go to confession before a priest and the priest tells them their sins are forgiven...correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person with that authority in the Bible was Jesus. A priest shouldn't be telling a person whether or not they are forgiven...that is up to God.

Clemsons, in my mind, "tradition" is not a bad word, nor is ritual. The traditions and prayers and rituals we have are Christo-centric - their purpose is to lead us to Christ. For example, there are different parts of the Mass that focus on different ways that we relate to our Heavenly Father. In one part we repent for our sins, in another, we sing His praises, in another we petition and intercede for the Church and the world, in another we give God thanksgiving for His many great gifts. The difference is, it is not just "Me and God" but it is the whole Church, praying together as One Body to our Heavenly Father in the union of mind and heart. And there are times when there should be silent prayer so that we can pray to our Father privately too.

The laws of the Church are there to help us serve Christ better too.

And yes, Clemsons, you are wrong about Jesus being the only one able to forgive sins. In John 20:21-23 you can see that Jesus gives His Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name. That authority has been passed down to different men for 2,000 years.

[danbos]

Danbos, that is a great question, and thank you for asking it so respecfully.

The truth is that every growth in holiness, every cleansing from sin, every growth in righteousness (see Hebrews 12:7-13), comes to us through Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are made holy, as God is holy, by God's grace... He is building us up and making us His children not only in name but in what we really are. That is why we are a new creation.... we aren't just CALLED something new, but we are really made something new.

When we grow in holiness through our cooperation with God, it is only because we are being united more perfectly with what Jesus did on the cross and with His Resurrection. And by the way, even our cooperation with grace is a gift from God.

So, would that mean that purgatory is only for those who don't believe in Jesus and still have sins to pay for? If so, do you believe in hell too? I'm just trying to understand what exactly purgatory is, and how it fits in.

[MadCatholicGomer]

So, would that mean that purgatory is only for those who don't believe in Jesus and still have sins to pay for? If so, do you believe in hell too? I'm just trying to understand what exactly purgatory is, and how it fits in.


I'm sorry I was unclear.

Yes, hell exists, and all those who reject God go there eternally. Purgatory is not hell; purgatory is for those who have received and have died in God's grace.

See, for us, grace really unites us to the death and Resurrection of Jesus such that those actions are applied to our lives in a very real way. We can really say, with St. Paul, "I have been crucified with Christ." However, when we continue to commit smaller sins, we draw ourselves farther from the cross. We don't reject the sacrifice of Jesus altogether, because then there would be, as Hebrews says, no longer a sacrifice for our sins.

Purgatory is an opportunity for those who have committed smaller sins and have not repented of them or for whom there are still the effects of sin to be cleansed of them... but it is a cleansing that takes its power from the Sacrifice of Jesus and His Resurrection. In other words, Purgatory is not something "added to" the cross; it is simply one way that the effects of the cross are applied to our lives.

[clemsontigers23]

John 20:21-23

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Okay, I agree with you here. Does the Catholic Church force people in the Church to go to confessional, though?

[bvc]

I'd like to know what passage you would use to say only apostles have that authority? Then, how do you take the office of an apostle and transfer it over to a priest, when priest do not do much if anything apostolic, but are just bishops? So did the apostles pass the authority to forgive sin to bishops? What makes anyone think all believers do not have this authority?

[Pouye]

What makes anyone think all believers do not have this authority?

Tradition ;)

Rock

[MadCatholicGomer]

I'd like to know what passage you would use to say only apostles have that authority? Then, how do you take the office of an apostle and transfer it over to a priest, when priest do not do much if anything apostolic, but are just bishops? So did the apostles pass the authority to forgive sin to bishops? What makes anyone think all believers do not have this authority?


Jesus was only speaking to apostles when He said, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven; whose sins you retain are retained."

The apostles passed the authority to forgive sins and perform the other Sacraments to bishops, including the ability to ordain other bishops in their stead. Bishops share the authority to forgive sins with ministerial priests.

[bvc]

but you have no scripture for any of that. I'm not interested in your opinion or the popes. Scripture?

Jesus said most of what he said to just the apostles. Shall we throw out 50% of NT?

[Evanescence]

Child Molestation: All I have to say, Ev., is prove it. Using an irrefutable source, prove that child molestation is: a. significantly higher in the Catholic Church than in other denominations which commonly allow married clergy b. cause by celibacy.

All that would have happened had the Church allowed priests to be married is that we would have married molestors, which means there own children would have been at risk too. Having sex does not heal people of perversions such as pedophilia. A person who had been healthy before commiting his life to celibacy would not have taken frustration out on children; living it out on children shows there is something latent there that was already very wrong.


Hypothetically I can prove it. There are 1.6 Billion people in the RCC. No where even close to that in the Protestant church. Child moletstation in the year 2007 is not easily hid. DNA, other people coming out, and a sexually open society all mean that reports are more frequent now than ever. be honest, if it were a problem anywhere near it is in the RCC, it would come out as such.

Ya'll need to concentrate on the problem, not making excuses. People are getting RAPED, their lives RAPED and the higher ups are covering it up. Its been done for decades, if not centuries. It needs to change.

While Pedophilia can't be cured with marriage, the frustration of celabacy creates huge problems within a persons mind, which leads to a variety of problems....rage, anger, jealousy, hatred etc. There is no scripture that forbids priests/pastors to marry...and the problem in the RCC is so bad, it should be changed....for the sake of at least trying to curve the problem. I wonder how many people in the RCC feel it would be OK to change it?

Authority over Scripture: The Catholic Church has never taught that it has the authority to do things that are contrary to Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God, and anything that contradicts it is wrong. However, the Church does feel it has the authority to interpret Scripture, and it does not believe that everything it does needs to be explicitly contained in Scripture.

Everything we're talking about is in scripture. You have a lot to learn about the RCC if you think they don't override scripture directly. Research the changing of the Sabbath and the quotes...actual words spoken by Popes, Bishops and Cardinals on it.

Purgatory: If people misunderstand it, than they need to be taught the truth. Purgatory, when understood properly, has nothing to do with letting people get away with commiting lots of sins. In fact, that sounds like these people are commiting an additional sin, the sin of presumption, which is the sin that believes that God will give one the time in which to repent; in other words, it is the attitude of, "I can always repent later." But "Behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, today is the day of salvation."

There is no passage, as you know, that explicitly speaks of purgatory. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 and 2 Macc. 12:45-46 are the most often used to give biblical evidence for purgatory. I know you disagree with the interpretation of 1 Cor. and I know you don't accept 2 Macc. Any Scripture I throw out there you will disagree with the possibility of it being interpreted in favor of purgatory, so what is the point?


What's there to misunderstand? Its a MAN-MADE idea...based on an idea by a Pope....like many ideas. There's not even a hint about it in scripture and was originally used...and even today used to collect money through guilt and intimidation.

Please explain how we should understand it.

Indulgences....3rd hand accounts? Pal, I WAS THERE and saw it with my own two eyes. Its a VERY common occurence and I'm sure the Vatican knows about it, turns a blind eye and/or could care less, as long as the money keeps flowing into the vatican vaults. People need to wake up and stop making excuses for their favorites. God isn't about favorites...either he is your favorite or he isn't. Like the Bible says: "No man can serve two masters...." Religion and God. Favorites or God.

And yes, of course, indulgences still exist in the legitimate fashion that they should have existed when Luther was around. If they are abused, it should be reported. And by the way, third hands accounts from your family is NOT proof. But I don't doubt that it does happen from time to time. People need to be taught and they need to be corrected. It doesn't mean that indulgences or purgatory is false.

Please explain how to PROPERLY do indulgences....

Saints and Mary: Let me give you an analogy Ev. Let's say a person goes to a pastor and says to him, "I am convinced that it is absolutely wrong and forbidden to ask other Christians to pray for me. I would be commiting a sin if I asked another Christian to pray for me." What do you think the Pastor would do? He would try to convince him that he was completely mistaken.

Again, we do not worship Saints. I understand how, for you guys, asking someone who is dead through prayer looks comparable to praying to God. For us, worship means this: sacrifice. We sacrifice to God alone, for He is God.

Mary and the Saints are God's masterpieces and our brothers and sisters. We look to them as examples and we seek their intercession, but again, we recognize that they are not the


I don't quite understand the top paragraph...

This issue has been divisive for 1500 years. I guess it is a matter of opinion. What gets me is the excuses you guys have for all this stuff thats not even close to Biblical. I mean, we're not talking about a few suggestions or guidelines for the church....but some serious stuff here. You say that you can understand that we might feel or think it is worshipping, but its not. What is your compass for determining what is worshipping or idol worship? The RCC church? Thats like asking Fox News if Bush is a good president.

The Bible is the Christian moral and Godly compass. However vague in spots, it is VERY clear in so many ways about idol worship and praying to the dead, that you'd be hard pressed to tell anyone different. I mean, don't BS, just say that you hold the church in higher esteem or trust it more than scripture and be done with it. Excuses look more suspicious than just coming out and saying whats really going on. You pray to OTHER entities, other than God. You are taking a TREMENDOUS risk, at offending a VERY jealous God. God destroyed entire cities in the OT for this very thing.

Salvation is not to be toyed with, or manipulated. This is why I left the RCC, there were too many chances to take with the doctrine. The love for the church and traditions have nothing to do with the seriousness of Salvation. Jesus rebuked the people who were all about religion and traditions.....and they killed him. They were wrong, he was right.

Repetitive worship: Jesus was a Jew. Every year, except that last one, He prayed the Passover and all the other religious festivals the way that the Jews always had. There is no evidence that He changed everything, besides changing the Passover at His Last Supper. Does that mean His worship at those times was meaningless or forbidden? Of course not.

Jewish prayer, and Catholic prayer, is liturgical. It should be done in spirit and in truth, which means concentrating and really praying the prayers. Mindless and repetitive prayer, not from the heart, can happen in non-Catholic churches too. In my experience, this is what a non-Catholic prayer often sounds like:

"Father, we just thank you for bringing us together this evening. We ask you to open our hearts and minds so that we can hear your word and obey. God, I just pray for all of those who may be hurting here; lay your healing hand upon them. And Lord, may we do everything tonight to praise and honor you. In Jesus' name. Amen."

I'm not saying that when people pray like that it is wrong. It is wrong if it is done mindlessly and without really trying to pray it. The same is true with Catholic prayer. We are supposed to be praying the prayers, not just saying them.

Is "I love you" vain and mindless repetition when said from husband to wife?


More excuses and weak explanations:

Jesus gave very specific instructions on worship. Not, Paul or a prophet with an opinion, Jesus, God himself. Sure, he gave us the Lords prayer, but he also explained how NOT to worship and pray. He also covered this when he spoke of the greatest commandment, "Loving the Lord your God with all your heart and soul"

When you see your mother or father...or loved one, do you talk to them like a robot? Like a dog or cow? Do you carry on a conversation with a loved one with simple yes and no answers....without looking at them, as if you don't care? NO! Yet, ya'll do it with God.

The I Love You analogy for a wife or husband isn't even close. It is a simple loving gesture but not to be used all the time as a weak, mindless, careless, selfish cop-out.

God is to be worshipped in a serious, loving manner...personal and up-close. How would someone do that with excessive Creeds, responses and chants? Perhaps alone in their home, but in church, thats how it works. I know, I did it for 19 years and never knew God. Once I got away from religion and traditions and got serious about KNOWING God, personally....then I began to know him. No form of religion or tradition can get us to heaven. Only a personal relationship with Jesus...no one else.

[Gandalf]

God is to be worshipped in a serious, loving manner...personal and up-close. How would someone do that with excessive Creeds, responses and chants? Perhaps alone in their home, but in church, thats how it works. I know, I did it for 19 years and never knew God.
While you didn't find a real relationship with God in that sort of environment, many people really do connect with Him and find value in such things. Creeds and rituals can for some be good reminders of the Truth they believe, and help them keep their minds focused on God. The existence of creeds, rituals, and responses doesn't necessarily make them impersonal or excessive. There are many for whom such words are quite valuable, and further a personal relationship with God.

Some prefer hymns in worship; others prefer rock music. Either group finds it "easier" to worship, and finds the worship to have more "reality" in its own preferred style. Those who prefer the hymns may value the depth of the lyrics and majesty of the music, finding that these help them focus their minds on God. Those who prefer contemporary worship may value the emotional expressiveness of upbeat music and find that this helps them express their soul. Neither is invalid just because it's not everyone's favorite style.

Similarly, responsive communal prayers, and liturgical rituals can have a great deal of value in helping some believers connect with God in a very deep and personal way. Just because you're one who has found life and depth in that style doesn't mean no one has. There are plenty of Protestant denominations that have liturgical services, as well. It's really not related to the Catholic conception of church authority.

[Valpo]

I think liturgy is a beautiful and integral part to worship. And E, how can you call the creeds mindless? How amazing in this day and age where a people can stand together and in unison say the things that they believe in. Which mindless creeds of the early church might you be referring to? The Aposltes? The Nicene? The Athanasian? All those creeds are perfectly sound and wonderful things to recite together. For theological reasons I disagree with the mass and the Roman Church. But liturgy, and the hymns of the church are absolutely beautiful. In fact, in speaking for the Lutheran Church, our liturgy comes straight from the Bible. Singing the same hymns of praise that the angels sang to God in various places of scripture. No contemporary song can even come close to touching that. Doctrinal issues I understand the beef with the RCC, but hammerin the liturgy and hymns? I'm not there.

[Evanescence]

I think liturgy is a beautiful and integral part to worship. And E, how can you call the creeds mindless? How amazing in this day and age where a people can stand together and in unison say the things that they believe in. Which mindless creeds of the early church might you be referring to? The Aposltes? The Nicene? The Athanasian? All those creeds are perfectly sound and wonderful things to recite together. For theological reasons I disagree with the mass and the Roman Church. But liturgy, and the hymns of the church are absolutely beautiful. In fact, in speaking for the Lutheran Church, our liturgy comes straight from the Bible. Singing the same hymns of praise that the angels sang to God in various places of scripture. No contemporary song can even come close to touching that. Doctrinal issues I understand the beef with the RCC, but hammerin the liturgy and hymns? I'm not there.

Both

[Evanescence]

I also wanted to ask about Inclusivity....

Any thoughts on this?

[MadCatholicGomer]

Hypothetically I can prove it. There are 1.6 Billion people in the RCC. No where even close to that in the Protestant church. Child moletstation in the year 2007 is not easily hid. DNA, other people coming out, and a sexually open society all mean that reports are more frequent now than ever. be honest, if it were a problem anywhere near it is in the RCC, it would come out as such.

Ya'll need to concentrate on the problem, not making excuses. People are getting RAPED, their lives RAPED and the higher ups are covering it up. Its been done for decades, if not centuries. It needs to change.


God is to be worshipped in a serious, loving manner...personal and up-close. How would someone do that with excessive Creeds, responses and chants? Perhaps alone in their home, but in church, thats how it works. I know, I did it for 19 years and never knew God. Once I got away from religion and traditions and got serious about KNOWING God, personally....then I began to know him. No form of religion or tradition can get us to heaven. Only a personal relationship with Jesus...no one else.


First of all, by that last paragraph you "revealed your hand" so to speak. I'm not going to discuss Catholic things with you any more Ev. You're a bitter anti-Catholic because you are a former Catholic who believes you were deprived of something when you were in the Church. Just one statement that made that clear is, "Of course the Vatican knows and they don't care, they just want money!" Come on Ev., how can you make such assertions? How can you so blatently judge people you don't even know? That is unfair and TOTALLY un-Christian. No amount of rational discussion is going to even lighten your heart on this, so I surrender. I have found my relationship with God in His Church, the Catholic Church. I have seen hundreds even thousands of lives changed by God in His Church, the Catholic Church and even specifically BY the things that God has revealed that the Catholic Church has that other churches have rejected - the Eucharist, the intercession of the Saints, the Sacrament of Reconciliation. All of these doctrines are Christo-centric IF PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, and while perhaps not explicitly in the Bible (though the Eucharist and Penance are VERY CLEARLY THERE) are consistent with Biblical teaching and were taught in the early Church, by the first Christians who learned from the Apostles. I'm sorry that you feel you missed out on something. While your experience is not unique in that regard, you need to realize it is NOT the only kind of experience that people have about the Church.

The last thing I have to say to you is about pedophilia. It has been said, that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media. Well, it is true. Of course the media hates the Catholic Church... half of them are fallen-away Catholics. They hate that the Catholic Church, especially, calls them to a much deeper and more authentic sense of sexuality, and they relish in the fact that so many Catholic clergy have sinned in this regard. For them, this gives them a sense of power and triumph over the Church, and they feel justified in continuing their sinful lifestyle. That is why they pick on the Catholic Church... along with the fact that we are the largest denomination in the Church, so it is much easier to collectively pick on us. That does not mean that the rate is significantly higher in Catholic Churches than other Christian communities, and again, you have done nothing to prove that it is.

I'm not making excuses. Catholic priests and bishops have failed God, they have failed the Church, and they have sinned gravely and hurt many innnocent children. It is tragic, and horrible. And it is being fixed. Have you even looked into what the bishops have been doing to fix the problem? I doubt it; you've made your judgement and unless you see what YOU want to see to have the problem fixed (namely, allowing priests to be married), you think they aren't doing anything to fix it. Believe me, from the inside of the Church, they are doing what can be done to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Even from a human standpoint, no bishop wants to face the same kind of charges that the bishops of a decade ago are now being accused of (namely, just moving priests, allowing them to strike again). Trust me, with all of the scandal that has gone on, if a priest is reported, they aren't going to be shuffled around anymore (By the way, oftentimes psychologists falsely assumed that the problem could be fixed, and the bishops listened to them, unfortunately. We realize now, whereas maybe 10 or 20 years ago it wasn't realized that pedophilia is not something that "goes away"). They will be suspended, and if found guilty they will not be allowed back into the ministry.

[HotWireD]

The last thing I have to say to you is about pedophilia. It has been said, that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media. Well, it is true. Of course the media hates the Catholic Church... half of them are fallen-away Catholics. They hate that the Catholic Church, especially, calls them to a much deeper and more authentic sense of sexuality, and they relish in the fact that so many Catholic clergy have sinned in this regard. For them, this gives them a sense of power and triumph over the Church, and they feel justified in continuing their sinful lifestyle. That is why they pick on the Catholic Church... along with the fact that we are the largest denomination in the Church, so it is much easier to collectively pick on us. That does not mean that the rate is significantly higher in Catholic Churches than other Christian communities, and again, you have done nothing to prove that it is.



Paedophilia is not any more common amongst the catholic Church than any other group of people, religious or secular.

Accusations of paedophilia, child abduction, child eating and other abhorrent crimes have always been used as ammunition against groups or individuals that others do not like. Irt makes it harder of apologists to defend persecuted groups.

Gypsies, Jews in Eastern Europe in the 1700s and 1800s, Pagans (when Christianity took over as the official religion of the Roman Empire), and, ironically, the early Christians (when the Pagans were still in charge of the Roman Empire) have all been accused of these crimes.

The Catholic Church does not have more offenders than any other group, in my opinion. They are more publicised and possibly more reported against due to the potential pay outs and press bias.

Some people just live out their abuse in silence, but due to the support groups and lawyers willing to help the victims of the Catholic Church, there appears to be a higher prevalence of abuse in the Catholic Church.

I have investigated crimes against single old men who have been accused of being Paedophiles by the offenders - they do this to justify their crimes against the victim, it also reduces the chances that witnesses will come forward. I have actually had women approach me whilst I have been examining such scenes who have shouted to me " why are you investigating that crime, the man is a Paedophile you know, he deserves it" When what we really have is a pychopathic arsonist on the loose who legitimises the setting of fires in peoples' homes by stating they are all Paedophiles.

There is a pastor at a local church who is an abuser, and yet when my friend spoke out about him she was bodily thrown out of the church - the congregation did not want to accept that he was such a man. They all knew what he was like, but so long as it was not spoken about they could ignore it.

I know personally (from my childhood) of a group of men who started a Christian boys group and abused several of the boys and yet they threw out and ostracised the only one who was not involved - for being seen kissing a woman other than his wife.

At least the majority of the Catholic Church is doing something about the problems they have and not sweeping it under the carpet, like they used to do, and like many other groups, both religious and secular still do.

Reports of child abuse by Catholic priests in the United Kingdom do not get the same cover as they appear to do in the USA.

It has been said, that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media. Well, it is true. Of course the media hates the Catholic Church... half of them are fallen-away Catholics. They hate that the Catholic Church, especially, calls them to a much deeper and more authentic sense of sexuality, and they relish in the fact that so many Catholic clergy have sinned in this regard. For them, this gives them a sense of power and triumph over the Church, and they feel justified in continuing their sinful lifestyle. That is why they pick on the Catholic Church... along with the fact that we are the largest denomination in the Church, so it is much easier to collectively pick on us. That does not mean that the rate is significantly higher in Catholic Churches than other Christian communities, and again, you have done nothing to prove that it is.



In Europe the Catholic Church is on the rise. Tony Blair has stated his intention to convert to the catholic faith.
Every radio program I hear it appears to me that people are jumping up to speak out about their Catholic upbringing.
After years of persecution and bigotry (when Catholics kept their heads down), Catholicism is on the rise in the United Kingdom.
Catholic churches are full every Sunday with local people and boosted with the immigrant workforce from Eastern Europe, newly freed from the yoke of Communism and free at last to show their faith.

I would not agree 'that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media' personally I think, being fair, from my observations, none religious people and none minority group people are the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media.

In the Europe (and to some level in the UK), another group subject to high levels of bigotry are right wing North Americans (Republicans) unfortunatly.

[MadCatholicGomer]

In Europe the Catholic Church is on the rise. Tony Blair has stated his intention to convert to the catholic faith.
Every radio program I hear it appears to me that people are jumping up to speak out about their Catholic upbringing.
After years of persecution and bigotry (when Catholics kept their heads down), Catholicism is on the rise in the United Kingdom.
Catholic churches are full every Sunday with local people and boosted with the immigrant workforce from Eastern Europe, newly freed from the yoke of Communism and free at last to show their faith.

I would not agree 'that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media' personally I think, being fair, from my observations, none religious people and none minority group people are the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media.

In the Europe (and to some level in the UK)...

Sorry, I was speaking about America. Catholics are the only group in America that the media can criticize vehemently and (often) irrationally and no one takes notice except for the Catholics (and even a good chunk of them don't care or even support the bigotry).

[HotWireD]

Sorry, I was speaking about America. Catholics are the only group in America that the media can criticize vehemently and (often) irrationally and no one takes notice except for the Catholics (and even a good chunk of them don't care or even support the bigotry).

No need to apologise, I was just pointing out that there is difference 'over the pond'.

Our press is completley different (although there is some indication that we may be moving more towards becoming a state of the USA, until Blair left office, that is and therefore getting a similar press.

[Evanescence]

First of all, by that last paragraph you "revealed your hand" so to speak. I'm not going to discuss Catholic things with you any more Ev. You're a bitter anti-Catholic because you are a former Catholic who believes you were deprived of something when you were in the Church. Just one statement that made that clear is, "Of course the Vatican knows and they don't care, they just want money!" Come on Ev., how can you make such assertions? How can you so blatently judge people you don't even know? That is unfair and TOTALLY un-Christian. No amount of rational discussion is going to even lighten your heart on this, so I surrender. I have found my relationship with God in His Church, the Catholic Church. I have seen hundreds even thousands of lives changed by God in His Church, the Catholic Church and even specifically BY the things that God has revealed that the Catholic Church has that other churches have rejected - the Eucharist, the intercession of the Saints, the Sacrament of Reconciliation. All of these doctrines are Christo-centric IF PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, and while perhaps not explicitly in the Bible (though the Eucharist and Penance are VERY CLEARLY THERE) are consistent with Biblical teaching and were taught in the early Church, by the first Christians who learned from the Apostles. I'm sorry that you feel you missed out on something. While your experience is not unique in that regard, you need to realize it is NOT the only kind of experience that people have about the Church.

The last thing I have to say to you is about pedophilia. It has been said, that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry in the media. Well, it is true. Of course the media hates the Catholic Church... half of them are fallen-away Catholics. They hate that the Catholic Church, especially, calls them to a much deeper and more authentic sense of sexuality, and they relish in the fact that so many Catholic clergy have sinned in this regard. For them, this gives them a sense of power and triumph over the Church, and they feel justified in continuing their sinful lifestyle. That is why they pick on the Catholic Church... along with the fact that we are the largest denomination in the Church, so it is much easier to collectively pick on us. That does not mean that the rate is significantly higher in Catholic Churches than other Christian communities, and again, you have done nothing to prove that it is.

I'm not making excuses. Catholic priests and bishops have failed God, they have failed the Church, and they have sinned gravely and hurt many innnocent children. It is tragic, and horrible. And it is being fixed. Have you even looked into what the bishops have been doing to fix the problem? I doubt it; you've made your judgement and unless you see what YOU want to see to have the problem fixed (namely, allowing priests to be married), you think they aren't doing anything to fix it. Believe me, from the inside of the Church, they are doing what can be done to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Even from a human standpoint, no bishop wants to face the same kind of charges that the bishops of a decade ago are now being accused of (namely, just moving priests, allowing them to strike again). Trust me, with all of the scandal that has gone on, if a priest is reported, they aren't going to be shuffled around anymore (By the way, oftentimes psychologists falsely assumed that the problem could be fixed, and the bishops listened to them, unfortunately. We realize now, whereas maybe 10 or 20 years ago it wasn't realized that pedophilia is not something that "goes away"). They will be suspended, and if found guilty they will not be allowed back into the ministry.

Ok, almost forgot about this one...:cool:

Hey, Mad Catholic, don't take your toys somewhere else. This has nothing to do with me or my background. these are honest questions and you stepped up to give us your expertise on these subjects.

In regards to prayer and traditions, Jesus said this:

Mat 6:5 And2532 when3752 thou prayest,4336 thou shalt not3756 be2071 as5618 the3588 hypocrites5273 are: for3754 they love5368 to pray4336 standing2476 in1722 the3588 synagogues4864 and2532 in1722 the3588 corners1137 of the3588 streets,4113 that3704 they may be seen5316, 302 of men.444 Verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 They have568 their848 reward.3408

Mat 6:6 But1161 thou,4771 when3752 thou prayest,4336 enter1525 into1519 thy4675 closet,5009 and2532 when thou hast shut2808 thy4675 door,2374 pray4336 to thy4675 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 secret;2927 and2532 thy4675 Father3962 which seeth991 in1722 secret2927 shall reward591 thee4671 openly.1722, 5318

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat 6:8 Be not3361 ye therefore3767 like unto3666 them:846 for1063 your5216 Father3962 knoweth1492 what things3739 ye have2192 need5532 of, before4253 ye5209 ask154 him.846

Now, in defense of the early church, early on they may not have known all of Jesus teachings...after allt he Bible wasn't complete or finalized for nearly 400years after Jesus death. So, early on, they may have done what they know...

BUT, now that we DO know how Jesus wanted us to pray and worship, CHURCH, this should be changed. It should have been changed centuries ago, once the scriptures were circulated enough that the church could understand it.

Now, I'm not convicted or even convinced on a lot of guidelines in the Bible...like many of Pauls and opinions, but this is Jesus himself instructing.

So, please tell me how tradition trumps the Bible and Jesus teaching?

Also, please show us Biblically where the church has the right to withhold communion from someone, just because they are not Catholic. Inclusivity, I think they call it.

Thoughts?

[MadCatholicGomer]

Ok, almost forgot about this one...:cool:

Hey, Mad Catholic, don't take your toys somewhere else. This has nothing to do with me or my background. these are honest questions and you stepped up to give us your expertise on these subjects.

In regards to prayer and traditions, Jesus said this:

Mat 6:5 And2532 when3752 thou prayest,4336 thou shalt not3756 be2071 as5618 the3588 hypocrites5273 are: for3754 they love5368 to pray4336 standing2476 in1722 the3588 synagogues4864 and2532 in1722 the3588 corners1137 of the3588 streets,4113 that3704 they may be seen5316, 302 of men.444 Verily281 I say3004 unto you,5213 They have568 their848 reward.3408

Mat 6:6 But1161 thou,4771 when3752 thou prayest,4336 enter1525 into1519 thy4675 closet,5009 and2532 when thou hast shut2808 thy4675 door,2374 pray4336 to thy4675 Father3962 which3588 is in1722 secret;2927 and2532 thy4675 Father3962 which seeth991 in1722 secret2927 shall reward591 thee4671 openly.1722, 5318

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat 6:8 Be not3361 ye therefore3767 like unto3666 them:846 for1063 your5216 Father3962 knoweth1492 what things3739 ye have2192 need5532 of, before4253 ye5209 ask154 him.846

Now, in defense of the early church, early on they may not have known all of Jesus teachings...after allt he Bible wasn't complete or finalized for nearly 400years after Jesus death. So, early on, they may have done what they know...

BUT, now that we DO know how Jesus wanted us to pray and worship, CHURCH, this should be changed. It should have been changed centuries ago, once the scriptures were circulated enough that the church could understand it.

Now, I'm not convicted or even convinced on a lot of guidelines in the Bible...like many of Pauls and opinions, but this is Jesus himself instructing.

So, please tell me how tradition trumps the Bible and Jesus teaching?

Also, please show us Biblically where the church has the right to withhold communion from someone, just because they are not Catholic. Inclusivity, I think they call it.

Thoughts?

Okay, so apparently we can't every pray Psalm 118 (which repeats that "his steadfast love endures forever" four times). We can't ever pray Psalms 117 because "Praise the Lord" is repeated." Nor can we pray Psalm 103 which repeats "Bless the Lord" five times.

And absolutely, under no condition whatsoever, can you pray that "heathen" poem entitled Ps. 136 which, no less than 26 times, repeats the phrase "for his steadfast love endures forever." Not only that, but it was repeating word for word parts of Psalm 135... how VAINLY REPETITIOUS.

And poor Jesus: He couldn't even follow His own advice. It says that while He was in the Garden of Gethsemane "He went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words." Well goodness gracious Jesus! What ARE you thinking? Wasn't one time enough for it?

Ev. when Jesus was speaking, he was speaking about VAIN repetition in which you think simply by saying some words God is going to hear you. The Gentiles thought they had to go through a litany of who their gods were in order to be heard. That is not what Liturgy is about. Liturgy is about praying and glorifying our Heavenly Father. If people go to simply "fulfill an obligation" than yes, they are guilty of sin. But we are supposed to pray the words of the liturgy. So long as it isn't vain and so long as it isn't false prayer, than what is wrong with it?

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace to men of good will. Lord God, Heavenly King, Almighty God and Father. We worship you. We give you thanks. We praise you for your glory..." If you think that is like what the heathens are doing, well... I don't know what to tell you. Except you are wrong and just simply don't understand what you think you understand.

Again, Ev., Jesus was a Jew and Jews were liturgical. Jesus never criticizes the liturgy of the Jews; notice that He criticizes "heaping up phrases like the Gentiles"... heathen vain repetition, not Jewish liturgical prayer.

[Jake]

I'm seriously debating posting my thoughts on catholocism here...I know I would get blasted, but I'm wondering if it would be worth it.

[sandie]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable, reading this thread?

Mad Catholic Gomer has been on these threads for a long time, and has explained the Catholic point of view a number of times before. (Kenny: Have I remembered your name?)

We have many delightful Catholic Christians here on the Boards. They seem to take their faith seriously, and yet they're judged for every backslidden or misguided Catholic, or every pedophile priest. I don't expect to be judged because of the poor behaviour or beliefs of people in my own denomination. I don't agree with everything in the Catholic faith, but I respect the sincere, faithful Catholics here.

[Evanescence]

N one is poting fingers at the PEOPLE...thats where pride comes in. The people follow the church, the system....and to many of us, the system is flawed and that is due to interpretaion of scripture...or the teachings of Christ.

And at no time did any of us say that these issues are deal breakers for salvation. The word hell wasn't used.

[clemsontigers23]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable, reading this thread?

Mad Catholic Gomer has been on these threads for a long time, and has explained the Catholic point of view a number of times before. (Kenny: Have I remembered your name?)

We have many delightful Catholic Christians here on the Boards. They seem to take their faith seriously, and yet they're judged for every backslidden or misguided Catholic, or every pedophile priest. I don't expect to be judged because of the poor behaviour or beliefs of people in my own denomination. I don't agree with everything in the Catholic faith, but I respect the sincere, faithful Catholics here.

No one is blasting Catholicism...but unfortunately there is great division between the Protestants and Catholics and I think it's worth talking about...we can't ignore that it's happening. The pope is the one saying we're not true churches, and Protestant people (rightfully so) were a little offended by this. There's nothing wrong with talking about it, and I haven't seen anyone straight up blast Catholicism.

[bvc]

and I haven't seen anyone straight up blast Catholicism.I guess I'll delete the the post I've been working on.....
:cool:

Seriously, I've known some Catholic's I'd consider saved, but as a whole the religion itself is........well, I digress :D

[MadCatholicGomer]

I guess I'll delete the the post I've been working on.....
:cool:

Seriously, I've known some Catholic's I'd consider saved, but as a whole the religion itself is........well, I digress :D


You guys can write whatever you feel like writing, so long as we are dealing with the official teaching of the Church rather than individual Catholics. I think it is unfair for me to try to have to answer for people who have misunderstood Catholicism, or committed sins (such as pedophile priests or people who abuse the Churches teaching on indulgences). Obviously people have committed sins in the Church. I don't make you guys answer for Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses even though I think they wouldn't exist as groups without the Protestant Reformation. I don't make you guys answer for snake handlers, and televangelist scandels, and "health and wealth gospel preachers" and Joel Osteen.

.... Let the record show that I have known more than my share of "good Catholics" in other words, Catholics who believe in God, who believe in Christ as their Savior, and whose lives have been positively affected because of it. Your experience is not the same as mine? Sorry, but your's is not the only experience out that. Go to Steubenville, OH, and I wonder if you would have the same impresison of Catholics and Catholicism in general.

When I think of Protestantism, even though there are many things I disagree with, I first find the good:

1. Preaching salvation by God's grace alone, in a way that often has been unfortunately neglected within the Catholic Church.

2. A love for God's word that leads to really and truly studying the Bible in a way that is not often found in the Catholic Church and which I am trying to emulate.

3. Praise and worship music.

[MadCatholicGomer]

I forgot to include probably the most important answer to the idea of "vain reptition" and the liturgy.

Liturgical prayer is supposed to be, in fact, a participation in the heavenly worship. We are really joining with the angels and Saints around the throne of our God and praising Him in a way that is far above earthly.

Actually, Ev., if you want to understand what Catholic liturgical prayer is, you need to read Revelation 4-5. That is the prayer of Heaven; it is also the prayer of the Mass.

And by the way... notice the repetition, please.

[bvc]

yes, well when the Jews wanted to go back under the law and take Gentiles with them, and Gentiles wanted to continue in sin, or preached another Jesus, the apostles didn't sit around, let it happen, and think 'to each their own'. There is 'that form of doctrine that was delivered' and that is what we are to follow and defend.

[Gandalf]

yes, well when the Jews wanted to go back under the law and take Gentiles with them, and Gentiles wanted to continue in sin, or preached another Jesus, the apostles didn't sit around, let it happen, and think 'to each their own'. There is 'that form of doctrine that was delivered' and that is what we are to follow and defend.
Isn't that rather a moot point? Both Protestants and Catholics could agree with that, and still believe that their side has 'that form of doctrine' which was originally handed down. If both sides believe they are correct, the point that they should stick to their guns won't make any difference in whether they agree on what's being discussed. If you look to give the other side the benefit of the doubt in this discussion, rather than looking for ways to disagree, you might be surprised to find that on many (though unfortunately not all) core issues, everyone's saying something pretty similar, just in a way that is misunderstood by the other side. :)

[bvc]

hey, I'll stand with ya....come on down to houston and we'll pay a visit to Joel Osteen and if he sees us in private fine, if he will not hear us fine, in front of all we'll rebuke him for his false teaching, and if he doesn't repent, we'll turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Then I'll go with you to visit the pope. Deal?

[Gandalf]

hey, I'll stand with ya....come on down to houston and we'll pay a visit to Joel Osteen and if he sees us in private fine, if he will not hear us fine, in front of all we'll rebuke him for his false teaching, and if he doesn't repent, we'll turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Then I'll go with you to visit the pope. Deal?
Is that a response to this?
You guys can write whatever you feel like writing, so long as we are dealing with the official teaching of the Church rather than individual Catholics. I think it is unfair for me to try to have to answer for people who have misunderstood Catholicism, or committed sins (such as pedophile priests or people who abuse the Churches teaching on indulgences). Obviously people have committed sins in the Church. I don't make you guys answer for Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses even though I think they wouldn't exist as groups without the Protestant Reformation. I don't make you guys answer for snake handlers, and televangelist scandels, and "health and wealth gospel preachers" and Joel Osteen.
(Just clarifying for the sake of readability since it'll show up on a different page for most people)

[bvc]

Isn't that rather a moot point? Both Protestants and Catholics could agree with that, and still believe that their side has 'that form of doctrine' which was originally handed down. If both sides believe they are correct, the point that they should stick to their guns won't make any difference in whether they agree on what's being discussed. If you look to give the other side the benefit of the doubt in this discussion, rather than looking for ways to disagree, you might be surprised to find that on many (though unfortunately not all) core issues, everyone's saying something pretty similar, just in a way that is misunderstood by the other side. :)no, not the same thing at all

[bvc]

Is that a response to this?

(Just clarifying for the sake of readability since it'll show up on a different page for most people)yes

[Gandalf]

yes
:cool:
no, not the same thing at all
I think there's more in common on the basic doctrines of salvation than we often give each other credit for:
When I think of Protestantism, even though there are many things I disagree with, I first find the good:

1. Preaching salvation by God's grace alone, in a way that often has been unfortunately neglected within the Catholic Church.

2. A love for God's word that leads to really and truly studying the Bible in a way that is not often found in the Catholic Church and which I am trying to emulate.

3. Praise and worship music.
That's not to say that there aren't major differences in doctrine, some of which are probably important enough to take a stand for, but we should do so respectfully and gracefully, with the mindset that we're dealing with fellow members of Christ's body rather than taking an adversarial approach.

[Pouye]

1. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
2. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;by whom all things were made;
3.who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
4.he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father;
5. from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
6. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic (universal) and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

For number 6, I believe that the universal church is clearly all those who have the Holy Spirit living in them, born of the Spirit of God:

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
Romans 8:9-

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God;"
1 John 4:3-

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Romans 8:14-

I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe He came in the flesh and He died for the sins of humankind. I believe He is my Lord and King, and I am His servant. I know I cannot always please Him, but I trust in His Holy Spirit to help me in my weaknesses and to guide me into all truth. I am looking forward to His coming Kingdom and to be with Him forever. I am looking forward to the day when all of the children of God are revealed and we worship the King of Kings without barriers or walls of any kind to separate and divide each other.

Rock

[sandie]

Amen.