What to do with the illegal aliens?

[Evanescence]

Big week for immigration reform....

The pressing questions is: What should we do with the 12-20 million illegal aliens living in this country now?

Its a tough subject. On the one hand, its almost impossible to deport them. On the other hand, they are here illegally.

What about our economy? How would we adjust to the loss of those jobs?

Thoughts?

GO! :cool:

[Martyred]

Deport as many as possible...

so what if the economy has a breakdown... it'll only make all the lazy Americans (Not all of us, just the lazy ones who can get a job, but just choose to live of us welfare ) get off their rear-ends and take one of those jobs...

[TLJ]

When your car window is open & it starts raining, you first close the window, then you worry about what to do about the rain that has gotten inside.
Same with the illegals.
Our govt needs to do what it takes to secure the borders....then they can decide what to do about the ones already here.

[Evanescence]

Hey, what happened to Mat's post??????

Big brother watching on !!!!!!!!!!!???????????!!! !!!!!

:mad:

[kiwisongbird]

Deport as many as possible...

so what if the economy has a breakdown... it'll only make all the lazy Americans (Not all of us, just the lazy ones who can get a job, but just choose to live of us welfare ) get off their rear-ends and take one of those jobs...

It's a Catch22 situation really.. .the welfare state creates lazy people while the lazy people use the welfare state...

[Evanescence]

When your car window is open & it starts raining, you first close the window, then you worry about what to do about the rain that has gotten inside.
Same with the illegals.
Our govt needs to do what it takes to secure the borders....then they can decide what to do about the ones already here.

Nice !!!!!

[River]

When your car window is open & it starts raining, you first close the window, then you worry about what to do about the rain that has gotten inside.
Same with the illegals.
Our govt needs to do what it takes to secure the borders....then they can decide what to do about the ones already here.

I agree completely.

It's a Catch22 situation really.. .the welfare state creates lazy people while the lazy people use the welfare state...

I disagree. I think there should be a program where people who complain about welfare should have to go on it for a month to see how "easy" it really is. Now, it varies per state so some may be shady, but I had a job and my friend had welfare and he had longer days than I did... all of the interviews that he was required to go to, training classes, and long days at the unemployment office. They called to verify all of the interviewers so he couldn't just list fake names and asked why they didn't hire him to find out how he could improve... I couldn't imagine just getting on welfare out of "laziness". It's too much work and the "pay" is too little. Holding a job is easier.

Now, After we straighten out our border problem, I say that any immigrant who's been here for 3 years stays. If not, then they have to go. If they've been here three years then they have set roots so whatever's whatever and I'd grant them citizensip as long as they registered within 6 months. And then after that 6 month deadline, everyone goes.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Deport as many as possible...

so what if the economy has a breakdown... it'll only make all the lazy Americans (Not all of us, just the lazy ones who can get a job, but just choose to live of us welfare ) get off their rear-ends and take one of those jobs...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i guess this doesnt apply to latinos looking to make a better life for them and their families.

[cheewiee]

Big week for immigration reform....

The pressing questions is: What should we do with the 12-20 million illegal aliens living in this country now?

Its a tough subject. On the one hand, its almost impossible to deport them. On the other hand, they are here illegally.

What about our economy? How would we adjust to the loss of those jobs?

Thoughts?

GO! :cool:

I say we provide a path to amnesty...

[in hiding]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i guess this doesnt apply to latinos looking to make a better life for them and their families.

No, it applies to everyone looking to get to the US. The expectation from the US is that it is done legally. My relatives, came over from norway, and went through the proper legal channels to become citizens... why should someone who comes here illegally have exceptions made for them? I realize it is a slow process; maybe that is where the difference needs to be made...speed up the process for either yes or no.

[mat1583]

I say we provide a path to amnesty...

I don't believe the path is amnesty. With amnesty you're giving the other millions of foreigners the idea that what the illegal immigrants did is "ok". It's not ok. I support the migration of legal immigrants to the United States, but through legal means.

-washboard

[freakysoccer]

i heard this on the radio, it's a way to solve three problems.

Dig a mote around the mexican border and take all of the problem alligator in florida and put them in the mote, then take the dirt gathered from digging the mote and build up New Orleans. that's just a joke but i found it very funny.

On a more serious note i think that we should deport any illegals with any kind of criminal history and give the ones without any crimes a chance to become citizens.

[Evanescence]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i guess this doesnt apply to latinos looking to make a better life for them and their families.

Only if its done legally.....through proper channels....

On a more serious note i think that we should deport any illegals with any kind of criminal history and give the ones without any crimes a chance to become citizens.

That'd be 80% of them...

Hey, I have spanish blood running through my veins...and I don't want them here illegally. What a SNAFU our Govt has allowed to happen over the past 40 years...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Building them a compound and ship them to Roswell, NM. OOOOPS! Sorry, got illegal confused with unidentified. :D

[Martyred]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i guess this doesnt apply to latinos looking to make a better life for them and their families.


Like the everyone else has said... it should be done LEGALLY. Do you really think that if a mexican jumped the border and goes undetected by border patrol, they should be allowed to stay here? NO!!!!! And Don't get me started by them having a kid and because of having a kid, they get to stay in the country.....

[Howlin' Wolf]

Like the everyone else has said... it should be done LEGALLY. Do you really think that if a mexican jumped the border and goes undetected by border patrol, they should be allowed to stay here? NO!!!!! And Don't get me started by them having a kid and because of having a kid, they get to stay in the country.....


you gonna do their jobs when we deport them all?

in addition, when we received the statue of liberty, there was no border control.

[TLJ]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

i guess this doesnt apply to latinos looking to make a better life for them and their families.

Absolutely it does, as long as they enter this country legally and respect the laws of this country.

[kiwisongbird]

In New Zealand in the 70s or 80s they had an amnesty where people could turn themselves in, then they did sweeps and would even raid people's homes in the middle of the night - we didn't have illegal aliens - we had 'overstayers'... it was a really weird time in our country and caused a lot of ill feeling between races...

I don't think there is an easy answer for the problem in the states, but I do agree with Tulip's thought about who will do all the jobs if all the illegal aliens are sent 'home'?

Seriously most the jobs are ones that actual citizens won't do anyway aren't they? And if actual citizens do them then the employers will have to pay more money and that will make a whole lot of employers go bust cos they won't be able to afford to pay the proper wages?

Before anything serious is done, I would say a lot, like stacks of thinking and working out needs to be done.

And saying that it's wrong cos they don't pay taxes.. I agree but also think that the money they earn is also going back into the economy often in areas where there is not much money (not sure is I'm right here) and if all the illegals were sent back then those depressed areas would just die completely, jobs lost, businesses closes etc...

The ramifications are huge.

[River]

Seriously most the jobs are ones that actual citizens won't do anyway aren't they?

No, there are poor people and Legal immigrants who would do them, but your next point is correct...

And if actual citizens do them then the employers will have to pay more money and that will make a whole lot of employers go bust cos they won't be able to afford to pay the proper wages?


And that's the way that it should be. If you can't keep your "business" running while paying your "employees" the Government Mandated minimum wage, then your "business" shouldn't exist anyway, should it? I mean, we should remember that what those employers are doing is illegal and stealing jobs from other employers who would abide by the law and pay more.

And saying that it's wrong cos they don't pay taxes.. I agree but also think that the money they earn is also going back into the economy often in areas where there is not much money...

Yes, but there would be More money going into those communities if the employers paid the minimum wage as they are supposed to.

Let me clarify... say Mr. Jones needs a wall built. He has company A which is legitmate and they would c harge him x amount of dollars to build the wall. Then company B comes in and charges Mr. Jones only half as much to build the wall because their employees get paid 1/3 of the minimum wage. Now, how is the legitimate company A supposed to stay in business with all of these illegal companies running around underbidding him? Legitimate employees have lost jobs because of this and maybe those jobs come back with no illegal immigrants.

[Pouye]

No, there are poor people and Legal immigrants who would do them, but your next point is correct...



And that's the way that it should be. If you can't keep your "business" running while paying your "employees" the Government Mandated minimum wage, then your "business" shouldn't exist anyway, should it? I mean, we should remember that what those employers are doing is illegal and stealing jobs from other employers who would abide by the law and pay more.



Yes, but there would be More money going into those communities if the employers paid the minimum wage as they are supposed to.

Let me clarify... say Mr. Jones needs a wall built. He has company A which is legitmate and they would c harge him x amount of dollars to build the wall. Then company B comes in and charges Mr. Jones only half as much to build the wall because their employees get paid 1/3 of the minimum wage. Now, how is the legitimate company A supposed to stay in business with all of these illegal companies running around underbidding him? Legitimate employees have lost jobs because of this and maybe those jobs come back with no illegal immigrants.

Some good rationale here, River!

As I said in another thread, the South didn't want to give up slaves for the same reason -- their economy was based on slave labor! Who would pick all of the cotton and tobacco if we let the slave go free? :rolleyes:

Rock

[kiwisongbird]

I know that, but even if all the illegal immigrants were deported then it would affect things badly for a while. Just don't think it would work to get rid of them all - perhaps making it easy for them to stay but maybe in a more legal way and just tighten things up from now on?

[luvmyrottie]

I heard a guy say on tv the other night that building a wall on the border is no solution because if you have a 14 foot wall, they will just get a 15 foot ladder. That is true. As long as we do not enforce our immigration laws and don't deport the people who are here illegally, they will continue to come illegally. Why should they take the time to come legally if there is no penalty once they get here for coming illegally? People are risking their lives every day sneaking into the US. I see it on the news all the time because we live 3 hours from the border and are on a main corridor for them to travel to the bigger cities.

I wonder how terrible their lives must be where they are coming from that they would risk so much. My heart goes out to them. But my heart also goes out to the kids who live in the inner cities that have lives that are truly horrible, too. Kids who don't even flinch when they hear a gunshot because it is so common place. I think before we try and take care of people from another country that have it bad, we need to take care of our own people.

There are illegals here who pay taxes and use our health care system. Their kids go to our schools. They have counterfeit documents that enable them to do this. They send half their paychecks back to Mexico or Central America every Friday. The lines at the bank and at the Wal-Mart service desk are unblievably long on these days. Many of these people don't have criminal records, they are just trying to make a better life for themselves. But they came here ILLEGALLY and are living here ILLEGALLY! You can't just let them stay. Otherwise, it will never stop, no matter how much you "tighten up" the borders.

[bvc]

you gonna do their jobs when we deport them all?
That's such a lame argument. I quite a job as 911 happened to get home and find out. I couldn't find work for 5 months, and when things got down to the bare wire I took a factory job for $7hr. A man will do what he has to to feed his family. No one needs to tell anyone that.



in addition, when we received the statue of liberty, there was no border control.That's true and was 1886. Ellis Island opened in 1892 but there were laws in place before that, though not very many or firm. In 1891 they began inspecting, admitting, rejecting, and processing all immigrants seeking admission to the U.S. Those two things are amongst the handful of wise things the US gov did since its founding.

Diseases have been on the rise, such as tuberculosis, as a result of immigration laws already on the books not being enforced. Human rights of illegals is now more important than the rights of the healthy tax paying citizen. That wasn't the case when we were still a nation ruled by law, ordained of God, mind you. That's right, the law of the land is not being honored by any american that claims to be christian, yet wants to set the laws on the book aside.



kiwisongbird, this is not just directed at you. I just used your comments as a springboard.

Seriously most the jobs are ones that actual citizens won't do anyway aren't they? And if actual citizens do them then the employers will have to pay more money and that will make a whole lot of employers go bust cos they won't be able to afford to pay the proper wages?

And saying that it's wrong cos they don't pay taxes.. I agree but also think that the money they earn is also going back into the economy often in areas where there is not much money (not sure is I'm right here) and if all the illegals were sent back then those depressed areas would just die completely, jobs lost, businesses closes etc...

The ramifications are huge.No, neither is consistently and completely true just in the way it is worded. What is true is that laws should be enforced. Anyone want to debate that? I didn't think so.

The ramifications are huge if we do nothing, or do the wrong thing.

I live in Houston Texas and I'm very familiar with this issue. For instance, a small contracting company that employs illegals pays them from $10-12hr up depending on skills, dependability etc. If I worked there I would need just a little more just to barely get by on, but guess what? Though the company has some illegals it pays $14hr, it won't even hire me. Why? Because it then has to hire someone to come in a handle payroll, deductions, taxes, and documentation. This could only be done if it were going to hire many citizens, and then it would only offer me $8-9hr which isn't enough for me unless I am desperate. That's a fact! I've lived here in Houston for 34 years.

I personally have to hire them occasionally. It's my bosses decision, he pays for it, I don't like it, and he knows it. We just need muscle, no skill and pay $8-10hr. When I was 26 years old I drove a truck for a plumbing supply company for $9hr. I worked outside in the heat all day and unloaded the truck at the construction sites for hours, while some of the illegals laughed at the gringo. Why? They were making more $. True, some of them did come to respect me over time because I wasn't fly by night and I was consistent, being there every week or more doing what they didn't even want to do.

Bottom line is....in almost all cases it is a lie. They are not getting paid under minimum wage, nor are they even under waged. I have known many, personally. Many live here for a year and go back to the home country and live off their savings for many years 'as a king'.

Most of the money doesn't go back into the economy. That is also a lie. Many send most of it home. You have to realize most of them live in very crowded conditions. They are used to this. I have known many instances but for an example, my current neighbors....
They moved in and I told my wife, "see those two pretty trucks in the driveway? Within a few weeks there will be 6-8 parked all up and down the street and in the grass.". I just looked out the window......there are 6 and by the end of the night just before bedtime there will be a few more. Have you people ever wondered how they get such nice stuff getting paid under minimum wage? Similar to the way citizens on welfare do. Wake up! Not only are they getting double the minimum wage they live two and three families per home reaping free school and medical benefits tax free!!! So you tell me, other than the vehicles they drive, the clothes they wear, and the food they eat, just how much $ goes back into the economy, when the visitors across the street change every 6 months.

All that said, they are very nice people. My wife and kids interact with them. The lady of the house is taking an english class to learn the language. Illegals are not bad people. I am not a bad person for a speeding ticket. I know they desire a better life. I understand our forefathers thought is was the right of mankind to go where ever they so pleased, BUT I also understand God's law and example in Israel dealt with disease and other social restraints.

Find them! As many as possible. Put them through all necessary test to maintain the health and safety of the tax paying citizens! Ship all out that do not pass! Heavily penalize illegal hiring business. Cut off welfare to those that will not work! Let the Church do its job!!!
The man that doesn't work, shouldn't eat.
Problem solved....
but that will not happen......modern society is far too willfully ignorant and the goal is to merge borders not make them more distinct.

k...well you can tell this hits a hot spot in me :D
I don't mind working hard and struggling to get by. It's good. I can understand people looking for and taking advantage of a better life illegally. What I can't stand is ignorant americans, that would know better if they were really in touch with their world they should be reaching out to, believing the garbage they hear from the mass media.

[River]

I know that, but even if all the illegal immigrants were deported then it would affect things badly for a while.

I can't say that. As I posted, it opens up opportunities for Legitimate and Legal workers.

Just don't think it would work to get rid of them all - perhaps making it easy for them to stay but maybe in a more legal way and just tighten things up from now on?

Maybe... but either way the sub-minimum wage thing would end and if they stayed then jobs wouldn't be as readily available for them (because the shady "employers" would go out of business if they had to pay their emplyees legally) and there would be fewer jobs.

If we took them all and made them legal then there Would be fewer jobs to go around. But, if we removed them, then legal employees could take over their former jobs and it would probably Help the economy.

[bvc]

oh, so what is the solution for that small contracting company? Well, if the gov enforced the current laws, and dealt with the illegals that are here (and they are not hard at all to find), and all companies were forced by current law to not hire illegals, and all need to raise their price to cover paying citizens $10-14hr + administration....then most of those small contracting companies survive. Not all, but most. But the alternative is to continue as we are and the entire country go under. Gee....what sounds more merciful?

Oh, and one more blunt point....
If thousands of unborn babies were not murdered every day over the last several decades, how many more workers would there be to do those hard jobs? But see, it was more merciful on the feelings of the women to give them the right to choose, wasn't it?

[River]

oh, so what is the solution for that small contracting company? Well, if the gov enforced the current laws, and dealt with the illegals that are here (and they are not hard at all to find), and all companies were forced by current law to not hire illegals, and all need to raise their price to cover paying citizens $10-14hr + administration....then most of those small contracting companies survive. Not all, but most. But the alternative is to continue as we are and the entire country go under. Gee....what sounds more merciful?



Well, while we're being blunt... who cares? Their activity (hiring emplyees below minimum wage) is Illegal, so whatever they get they had coming to them. Another company (probably one of the ones that had to go out of business because they were constantly being underbid on jobs) will take over that place in the market and the economy marches on.

Worrying about the illegal companies' fate is akin to worrying about the fate of drug dealers or gun runners... it's illegal and needs to go away.

P.S. The companies would only have to pay their employees $6 an hour or so, not 10-14... not that it really matters though, either option is higher than the $2 or $3 that exists now.

P.S. About your second point... wh at concerns me is that it could be the guy who invents the cure for AIDS or cancer or a new clean-burning fuel could be the one being aborted. But, that's a thread for a different time.

[bvc]

Well, while we're being blunt... who cares? Their activity (hiring emplyees below minimum wage) is Illegal, so whatever they get they had coming to them. Another company (probably one of the ones that had to go out of business because they were constantly being underbid on jobs) will take over that place in the market and the economy marches on.

Worrying about the illegal companies' fate is akin to worrying about the fate of drug dealers or gun runners... it's illegal and needs to go away.

P.S. The companies would only have to pay their employees $6 an hour or so, not 10-14... not that it really matters though, either option is higher than the $2 or $3 that exists now.We should all care. Stealing gum is not murder! They are our neighbors, and if sinners then they are doing what they are supposed to be doing, not to mention it is a global economy, so even other countries should be concerned with what we decide to do. Not have a say but be concerned.

You have some very good points but if you do not apply wisdom to the knowledge it will render foolishness.

Can you or anyone you know live on $6hr? :rolleyes:
What an employer has to pay and what he in good conscience should pay are two complete different things. Very, very, very, few makes 2 or 3. It is a lie many are. Did you not read my post? I have never known one that makes that. Why would they come here to make what they can make there considering the cost of living? Think it through and stop believing the nonsense!!!

[River]

Stealing gum is not murder!

Wha...?

If you perform illegal activities then you should be punished for them. If that means losing your business, then you lose your business. It was an illegal business anyway.


Can you or anyone you know live on $6hr?

Yes, I did so in my early 20's and believe it or not, there are a lot of Poor people who do just that. It's not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the Minimum and there are a lot of employers who use that to pay their employees.

Believe me... if the illigal situation was handled tomorrow... those jobs would be paying minimum wage and no more. Their thinking would be that if they found illegal immigrants to do the work for $3 then they could find legal ones who would do it for $6. And they'd be correct.

What an employer has to pay and what he in good conscience should pay are two complete different things.

Absolutely true. Of course if people did what they Should do then no one would be getting paid $3 an hour in the first place.

[bvc]

law not enforce is no law

very few pay minimum [EDIT]oh they will now....that is has gone up

where are the immigrants that will work for $3?

[River]

law not enforce is no law


True. But this thread assumes that the law (whatever it will be) will be enforced.

very few pay minimum


The people that prepare your fast food would disagree.

where are the immigrant that will work for $3?

Working for $3.

[bvc]

a thread assumes?

what the law will be? what about the current? Why would the new be enforced if the current was not?

Actually, most fast food joints pay more than minimum wage. But again, that will change when the new min takes effect....at least for a while then they will go up.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Industry=Fast_Food_Restau rant(s)/Hourly_Rate

again.....who is working for $3hr? You as everyone else, assumes it has to be less than $6hr but you do not consider complete cost and you err.

[River]

a thread assumes?

what the law will be? what about the current? Why would the new be enforced if the current was not?



Ok, do you really have anything to add or are you just being ornery for the sake of it?

a thread assumes?

Actually, most fast food joints pay more than minimum wage.

Maybe... but not all. There's still a lot that don't. And movie theaters, janitoral services and some retail stores.

again.....who is working for $3hr? You as everyone else, assumes it has to be less than $6hr but you do not consider complete cost and you err.

Who was ever talking about "complete cost"? You were Just talking about whether someone could Live off of $6 an hour (that's not "complete cost" either) so tell me how I'm supposed to know when you jump from one to the other.

[bvc]

tank u!

[bvc]

Who was ever talking about "complete cost"?business owners? :rolleyes:

[River]

business owners? :rolleyes:

ROFLMBO... you're too funny!

[bvc]

if you don't think complete cost is the bottom line I suggest never starting your own business, because you will not find yourself laughing.

[River]

if you don't think complete cost is the bottom line I suggest never starting your own business, because you will not find yourself laughing.

ROFL PMPL :D

[bvc]

Ok, do you really have anything to add or are you just being ornery for the sake of it?looks like you should apply that to yourself. This isn't some IM/Chat channel where mostly all you see is ROFL......
:rolleyes:

[River]

looks like you should apply that to yourself. This isn't some IM/Chat channel where mostly all you see is ROFL......
:rolleyes:

No, it's a message board with a member who enjoys jumping from one random topic to another and is oblivious that they're doing it. Let me give you an example of one of our back-and-forths and see if you can find the humor.

bvc: Can you or anyone you know live on $6hr? :rolleyes:

River: Yes, I did so in my early 20's and believe it or not, there are a lot of Poor people who do just that.

bvc: where are the immigrants that will work for $3?

River: working for $3.

bvc: again.....who is working for $3hr? You as everyone else, assumes it has to be less than $6hr but you do not consider complete cost and you err.

River: You were Just talking about whether someone could Live off of $6 an hour (that's not "complete cost" either) so tell me how I'm supposed to know when you jump from one to the other. Who was ever talking about "complete cost"?

bvc: business owners? :rolleyes:

Now you really don't see the humor in how you're jumping from one thing to another?

[Valpo]

I don't believe the path is amnesty. With amnesty you're giving the other millions of foreigners the idea that what the illegal immigrants did is "ok". It's not ok. I support the migration of legal immigrants to the United States, but through legal means.

-washboard

good post. I like what TLJ said as well. We need to secure our borders before we can worry about what to do with those already here.

[bvc]

No, it's a message board with a member who enjoys jumping from one random topic to another and is oblivious that they're doing it. Let me give you an example of one of our back-and-forths and see if you can find the humor. bvc: Can you or anyone you know live on $6hr?

River: Yes, I did so in my early 20's and believe it or not, there are a lot of Poor people who do just that.

bvc: where are the immigrants that will work for $3?

River: working for $3.

bvc: again.....who is working for $3hr? You as everyone else, assumes it has to be less than $6hr but you do not consider complete cost and you err.

River: You were Just talking about whether someone could Live off of $6 an hour (that's not "complete cost" either) so tell me how I'm supposed to know when you jump from one to the other. Who was ever talking about "complete cost"?

bvc: business owners? :rolleyes:

Now you really don't see the humor in how you're jumping from one thing to another?No, I don't. I'm simply proving my point, not moving on or jumping around. How do you not see complete cost as a factor? Running a business like that will run you into the ground.

again.....who is working for $3hr? You say working for $3hr, but it doesn't answer the question and it is based on assumption. You as everyone else, assumes it has to be less than $6hr but you do not consider complete cost and you err.

If you can not address the facts, you will be the one having to jump to something else. We have remained on the same topic.

[River]

No, I don't. I'm simply proving my point, not moving on or jumping around.

Oh wow, so you really don't see. Okay...

How do you not see complete cost as a factor?


What do you consider to be included in "complete cost"?

Running a business like that will run you into the ground.


Like what?

again.....who is working for $3hr? You say working for $3hr, but it doesn't answer the question and it is based on assumption. You as everyone else, assumes it has to be less than $6hr but you do not consider complete cost and you err.


A friend of mine was hired to gather fruit for $2.85 an hour. He worked that job for two year before he got the job at the workplace that I met him.

[bvc]

if you had read my post, you wouldn't need to ask for an example of complete cost, and would know 'like what'.

I could pick up an illegal at the corner, work him for 6 hours, pay him $20 and tell him to get out of my truck. When I come back another day to get another worker, he doesn't have to get in my truck, now does he? If you friend took the job for $2.85hr then he should have done the best job he could have even though he should have gotten $8hr. I received two promotions at the company I drove the truck for at $9hr because I worked as if I was getting the $14hr I should have been getting. It is not the governments job to decide what a business owner pays. It is between the owner and the one needing the work and no one else. Now you'll accuse me again of jumping around, but this is not a simple issue and if you want to discuss it you need to roll with the discussion.

So congrats, you know one person. I don't and have never know someone gullible enough to do anything for such low pay, but I know they exist in small numbers. They are not the majority as we are led to believe. It doesn't mean it is not important. I'm just pointing out the fact. Your friend didn't have any skills. A none skilled citizen works for a lot less than a skilled citizen. That's a fact. Don't let the word skilled fool ya. It doesn't take much for an illegal to find work for $8hr. I worked in the printing industry for 3 years and $6-8hr is what someone gets paid to hand fold custom pocket folders whether they are citizen or illegal. Just another little fact for ya. Some people just are not very bright and are taken advantage of. Welcome to the real world. It is not the government job to regulate the intelligent in favor of the ignorant. Slavery and abuse, absolutely, but again, no one has to go pick the fruit for $2-3hr. That farmer needs that fruit picked and the market and the will of man will decide what that pays not the government.

[River]

I could pick up an illegal at the corner, work him for 6 hours, pay him $20 and tell him to get out of my truck. When I come back another day to get another worker, he doesn't have to get in my truck, now does he?

Nope.

It is not the governments job to decide what a business owner pays. It is between the owner and the one needing the work and no one else.

Whether the "minimum wage" should or shouldn't exist is irrelevant... it does, so the law should be abided by. You're suggesting that people openly break the law.

So congrats, you know one person. I don't and have never know someone gullible enough to do anything for such low pay, but I know they exist in small numbers. They are not the majority as we are led to believe.

This is what you're not understanding... the employees don't work for low pay because they are "gullible" they work for low pay Primarily for two reasons:

1. They are illegal.

2. They don't speak English.

An illegal immigrant will work for food money because it's their only option... MCDonald's not going to risk that. (Although Wal-Mart might) ;)
And as long as these shady "employers" realize that then they will be able to hire them for food money. And as long as they can do that then they will, and they will underbid their correctly-paid counterparts.

Lastly... you're saying that we shouldn't feel bad for these workers that make $3 an hour. Ok, but what does that have to do with whether we should keep illegal immigrants or send them back to their native countries?

[bvc]

Whether the "minimum wage" should or shouldn't exist is irrelevant... it does, so the law should be abided by. You're suggesting that people openly break the law.I've suggested no such thing. The proper way to handle that is getting rid of the law by the power of the people, just as the lame bill this week was shot down. You sure like to make assumptions.




This is what you're not understanding... the employees don't work for low pay because they are "gullible" they work for low pay Primarily for two reasons:

1. They are illegal.

2. They don't speak English.

An illegal immigrant will work for food money because it's their only option... MCDonald's not going to risk that. (Although Wal-Mart might) ;)
And as long as these shady "employers" realize that then they will be able to hire them for food money. And as long as they can do that then they will, and they will underbid their correctly-paid counterparts.again, none of that is true for the vast majority.




Lastly... you're saying that we shouldn't feel bad for these workers that make $3 an hour. Ok, but what does that have to do with whether we should keep illegal immigrants or send them back to their native countries?I never said we shouldn't feel bad. Quit assuming!

Hey, you are the one fallen prey to the media insisting the majority are taken advantage of and are making $3 and hour.

I never said it had anything to do with them staying or going. Did you? No. What's your point, other than regurgitating mass media propaganda?

[Pouye]

The fact is, the current laws should be enforced. I have no problem with doing some sort of "band aid" fix and giving illegal immigrants a sort of amnesty, as well as employers who employ them. Here is what it could look like:

1. Current illegal immigrants who are in prison for crimes committed should be deported, using government money (State would be best, since they are in the borders of that State).
2. A time period should be published, effective immediately... something like from this date (June 31th, 2007) until, say, December 31th, 2007, all illegal immigrants must show up at their local court houses to register. When they register, they will be photographed, finger-printed, etc. Then, they will be sent to the local clinics and hospitals to get a medical check. As soon as this is all done, and they pass any police/FBI/CIA background checks and are cleared medically, they could be issued a temporary visa/work permit which expires January 1st, 2008.

If any immigrant is found without this special permit (which will remain on file in an electronic format for quick retrieval) after January 1st, 2007 will be immediately deported, no questions asked.

During their temporary stay (with a work permit), they can start the application process to become citizens. This process should not be so difficult as to make it impossible for them to become citizens. They should have to give full information about themselves pertaining to their country/place of birth, how and where they entered the country illegally, their education, training, skills, job history, if they are currently working (and where), employer's name(s), criminal history, etc. The idea is full information. There would be a protective clause in place so that these immigrants would not be prosecuted for entering the USA illegally (amnesty) and that they can keep their current jobs as long as their employer had agreed to pay them the required minimum wage or above. There would also have to be an "amnesty" period for employers -- that by January 1st, 2008, they would only employ legal, card carrying immigrants.

It might be a good idea for immigrant workers to apply for a temporary working permit/visa of, say, 3 years -- which would give them multiple entries into the country of the USA and have on it, "guest worker".

The cost for all of these forms, examinations, paperwork processing, etc. should not exceed 50 dollars US from the immigrant. The Federal/State/Local governments should meet the rest of the costs.

The application to become a citizen would need to include everything it currently does, but it should not deny citizenship because of past illegal entries or working situation. The law also should not punish them for misdemeanors or tax evasion.

Companies or private individuals who have hired or currently are employing illegal immigrants should be encouraged to make sure all of their employees follow through the new amnesty laws. After January 1st, 2008, if any company is found employ illegal immigrants, they will be fined at a minimum of 20 percent their yearly gross income. During the "probation period", the companies are under amnesty protection, but must conform to current legal standards by January 1st, 2008. Like the illegal immigrants, the companies will not be prosecuted for tax evasion, hiring illegal immigrants, etc. In other words, if by January 1st every business that used to hire illegal immigrants has only registered immigrants after January 1st, 2008; it will be as if they never did anything wrong, and all possible charges, fines, penalties and past due taxes for illegal immigrant employees would be dropped.

Anyway, I think something like this could be the way to progress.

Rock

[River]

I've suggested no such thing. The proper way to handle that is getting rid of the law by the power of the people, just as the lame bill this week was shot down.


Again... irrelevant to the conversation.


again, none of that is true for the vast majority.


For the "vast majority" of people working below minimum wage it is.


I never said we shouldn't feel bad.


You called them "gullible".


Hey, you are the one fallen prey to the media insisting the majority are taken advantage of and are making $3 and hour.


The majority of who?


I never said it had anything to do with them staying or going.

Then it doesn't belong in this thread, because this thread is about what we should do with illegal immigrants... not minimum wage. Create a new thread so you won't be steering this one so far off topic.

[kiwisongbird]

Rock, you're awesome, that sounds like a wonderful plan - maybe you could send it to someone in 'power' - implemented it would work I think :) :) :)

[luvmyrottie]

Nope.



Whether the "minimum wage" should or shouldn't exist is irrelevant... it does, so the law should be abided by. You're suggesting that people openly break the law.



This is what you're not understanding... the employees don't work for low pay because they are "gullible" they work for low pay Primarily for two reasons:

1. They are illegal.

2. They don't speak English.

An illegal immigrant will work for food money because it's their only option... MCDonald's not going to risk that. (Although Wal-Mart might) ;)
And as long as these shady "employers" realize that then they will be able to hire them for food money. And as long as they can do that then they will, and they will underbid their correctly-paid counterparts.

Lastly... you're saying that we shouldn't feel bad for these workers that make $3 an hour. Ok, but what does that have to do with whether we should keep illegal immigrants or send them back to their native countries?

just fyi, my husband is a manager for Wal-Mart and we live in an area high in illegals and he works very hard to make sure that all his associates have authentic documentation. He doesn't hire anyone with questionable documents. Neither do the other store managers in our area. And they are seriously hurting for people to work for them. They start them out above minimum wage, too.

[River]

Well, considering the illegal immigrants are ALL criminals (not 80% Evanescence:P ) I'd arrest them and deport them at the same time I was building the fence!!! Do you get my point Evanescence??? They are here illegally....THAT MEANS THEY ARE CRIMINALS. NOT 80% OF THEM. ALL OF THEM!!!!!!!!! HOW DID YOU MISS THAT?????:P

Tell the family of the guy from my town who was killed in a head on collision with a Semi truck last week because an illegal immigrant was driving recklessly and caused the semi to go left of center and hit a totally innocent driver and kill him, why we shouldn't arrest and deport them now!!! And of course the illegal immigrant has several alias's. :mad:

Evanescence you amaze me with the way you pretend to accidentally raise questions that are always the talking points of the far left!!!!!!! I see right through you and what you are doing. Are you part of moveon.org??? :eek:

And by the way my opinion of how we should deal with illegal immigration is exactly the same as the beautiful ANN COULTER!!!!!! Beauty and brains, she is really something!!!!:cool:

After we deport ALL of the immigrants, what should be done with their children who were born here and are thusly legal US citizens? Orphan them? Deport them illegally? Give them to Angelina Jolie?

[luvmyrottie]

After we deport ALL of the immigrants, what should be done with their children who were born here and are thusly legal US citizens? Orphan them? Deport them illegally? Give them to Angelina Jolie?

That's a good question. And I don't have an answer for it. But I still think that their parents should have to account for coming into the country illegally.

[River]

That's a good question. And I don't have an answer for it. But I still think that their parents should have to account for coming into the country illegally.

I don't know... I say we let some of them slide. I mean, if some US citizens weren't accepting bribes to let them in and help them not get caught in the first place then they wouldn't have made it in. if we punish All of the illegal immigrants then we have to punish All of them also, don't we?

It just gets too murky... I say we own up to the fact that we made some errors and accept some of the illegal immigrants, but make certain we don't have these types of issues any more.