family asked to leave a church

[LifeDvtd]

I heard this on the news yesterday...*shakes head in dissappointment*
Church asks mom, disabled child to leave
By NANCY FOSTER
New Hampshire Union Leader Correspondent
Wednesday, Jun. 20, 2007
AMHERST – Jessica Harvey has learned to prepare herself for the looks and comments she gets when she brings her 4-year-old disabled daughter out in public, but nothing could prepare the Milford mom for the treatment she said she received at a local church.

In March, Harvey took her three girls to a Sunday service at the Household of Faith in Amherst while her husband, Kevin, was off on National Guard duty. Her youngest daughter attended the children's service offered by the Christian fellowship, but Harvey brought her daughter, Teagan, who suffers from a severe neurological disorder, to the adult service.

"She has a very complicated medical condition, so I wasn't comfortable leaving her with strangers," said Harvey.

Teagan, who can't talk, is fed through a tube and uses a wheelchair. She sat with her mother as a band began playing music.

"It wasn't quiet," said Harvey, who chose the Household of Faith despite her Catholic upbringing, because the church had a reputation for spirited worship.

"The band was playing, people were singing and clapping and shouting 'hallelujah', and Teagan got excited." Because Teagan can't communicate verbally, Harvey said, she began squealing and letting out little screams.

"She was singing her praises the only way she knows how," Harvey said.

But as the music played on, Harvey said she was tapped on the shoulder by an usher and told that she and Teagan would have to leave.

"As a parent of a disabled child, you tend to prepare yourself for the comments and the looks," Harvey said, "but I hadn't prepared myself emotionally for this because it was church."


Jessica Harvey said after she and her daughter Teagan, 4, were asked to leave the Household of Faith in Amherst, they now attend First Baptist Church in Nashua.

Instead of causing a scene, Harvey said she decided to do as she was asked. She left.

"I was devastated," she said, adding: "I wasn't even given a chance to quiet her down before I was asked to leave."

Harvey later wrote a letter to the Rev. Nicholas Manha, pastor of the Household of Faith.

"I am trying to make an effort to open my heart to Jesus and show my children how he would have wanted them to live," she wrote.

Manha refused to comment, saying only that Harvey was treated with kindness and compassion. However, in a May 12 e-mail response to Harvey's letter, Manha said people are asked to leave after about eight minutes of disruptive behavior. He said that Teagan's "piercing screams" lasted well beyond the eight-minute limit, though she was given ample opportunity to calm down.

"I pray that you can see the heart of our policy is to respect the needs of individuals while not ignoring the right of our congregation to worship without disruption," Manha wrote.

Harvey and her family have not returned to Household of Worship. For several months, she said, she was afraid to try another church for fear of the reaction she would receive. However, for the past two Sundays, she's been attending the First Baptist Church in Nashua. The congregation has warmly welcomed Teagan and her outbursts, Harvey said.

"Our church has several people who are disabled," said the Rev. Mark Jackson, noting disruptions are just part of the service.

"Everybody in the family of faith is loved by God," Jackson said. "Some have disabilities they can't help, but our congregation is accustomed to that, they're tolerant and accepting. When a disruption happens, we just move on."

[Gapeach3DFan]

There is a big church near here that asks that all children be sent to Children's church instead of being in the service. I know some people that are not comfortable with that. And, like this lady, some parents aren't comfortable with it because they have special needs children. I was surprised when I found out that church here had that policy. They use the excuse that screaming children disrupt the service. Maybe it needs to be disrupted. I agree with a pastor I know that said something similar to what the second pastor in this article said. God loves children, too. And, if they are not comfortable with going to children's church, they should not be forbidden to attend the adult service. Also, if they have never attended one, how do they know what is appropriate? I know a screaming child can get annoying. I understand you get upset when you have a child that won't stop screaming because they are bored or upset. But, they could've said something to the lady before telling her that she has to leave. Or, they could've bothered to find out that the child was actually trying to sing along. :rolleyes:

[SmileyFreak1981]

That is really, really sad...and not such a Christ-like action either. :rolleyes:

In my personal opinion, to have a specific 8-minute disruption ordinance in a church is a bit uptight to say the least. Not every disruption is disorderly...good grief. :(

[thirday]

We have a lady at our church that is handicapped and when she gets excited she lets out screams of excitment. She loves music. She can't talk, is blind and in a wheelchair. I love it because you know that she is being blessed by God, and in turn that blesses us. We are all God's children.

[Tony Trout]

That's just plain outrageous! *sigh*

I dunno what else to say.....

[freakysoccer]

That my friends is why so many people don't come to church and why nonbelievers won't even give christianity a chance. They are afraid that they will be treated badly.

[kiwisongbird]

That sucks!

I think church needs to be disrupted!!

[SueQ]

We have a lady at our church that is handicapped and when she gets excited she lets out screams of excitment. She loves music. She can't talk, is blind and in a wheelchair. I love it because you know that she is being blessed by God, and in turn that blesses us. We are all God's children.

Amen!

[middletree]

There are churches all over the world who welcome in all sorts of people, and show them the love of Jesus. Stories like this don't mention that.

[kiwisongbird]

That is soooooooooooo true -in Singapore there's a church that sends buses out to pick up disabled people from all over the city, they have a special church service for them, just like they have youth services, family services, prayer services etc - it's a huge church with services rolling all weekend...

The disabled people have a ball, they are all laughing on the way into church - they dance with them, they make bows and arrows - all sorts of stuff - I was a bit envious - they really looked like they were having loads of fun... maybe a newspaper could do an article on them, bet they never will though!

[sandie]

Actually, the mother didn't ask the church beforehand if they had carers who would look after her four year old. She could have briefed them about her daughter's needs and she may have enjoyed a programme that was suitable for her age group. Instead of that, she presented the church with an affait accompli. I also wouldn't have liked to have a screaming child there, particularly for eight minutes. I'm there to worship the Lord, pray and learn from His Word.

Sometimes a child begins crying in our church and a parent takes the child out, which is appropriate and not a big deal. Most parents use our creche for under threes, or the young Sunday School group which is suitable for three and above.

[kiwisongbird]

They've been well trained... :eek: ;)

I think really in this day and age people can find a church where they belong.. not all churches would have people in them who would cope with a child being really noisy for so long, actually not many would...

At Sandy's church obviously people are used to not having kids in the services, I prefer kids in the services with all the noise and disturbance, but that's just my taste...

The only worry about having kids somewhere else most the time for me would be that kids end up thinking that the 'real' God stuff is for the adults while someone looks after them... this is NOT a problem if where the kids go is 'church' for them, not just a babyish sitting service, which I'm sure in Sandy's church it's not...

Sometimes the Holy Spirit moves mores in the kids' church than in the grown up church - less stuff in the way I guess... that's when we would want them to come back and lay hands on us and pray for US!!

[Sam!]

Actually, the mother didn't ask the church beforehand if they had carers who would look after her four year old. She could have briefed them about her daughter's needs and she may have enjoyed a programme that was suitable for her age group. Instead of that, she presented the church with an affait accompli. I also wouldn't have liked to have a screaming child there, particularly for eight minutes. I'm there to worship the Lord, pray and learn from His Word.

Sometimes a child begins crying in our church and a parent takes the child out, which is appropriate and not a big deal. Most parents use our creche for under threes, or the young Sunday School group which is suitable for three and above.
And if a person didn't feel it was appropriate to share the sanctuary with women... would that be okay? Which distinctions is it okay to make?

[sandie]

Sam: I'm not sure what your question means. Is it a question about women leading services, or leading worship?

If so, neither is a problem in our church. Women lead the worship much of the time, and our female Elder presides over the weekly communion when it's her turn and always has something meaningful to say. Pat has also preached once, though she would prefer to leave it to a couple of the Elders who preach regularly, or other preachers. We do not have a Pastor at present.

From my two years here on the Boards, I've observed that many of you in American churches have more "issues" than we do, in many areas in church life. At my church we do things decently and in order, as we are commended to in Scripture, and our focus is on worshipping Him, and in loving each other.

Sharon: Yes, we do have a great programme for the above three year olds, with lots of singing and acting and craft to teach children about God. I might add that if a child becomes upset in creche or in the above three year olds group, one of the carers takes the child back to mum or dad in church. (I'm on the creche roster.)

[Sam!]

No Sandie, I'm saying what if there was a group of men who decided they would be uncomfortable by having women joining them for worship. What if it would be disruptive to them? Should the women be removed like children? When is it okay to bar people from public worship?

[sandie]

Sam: Jason explained to me that you use the word "sanctuary" to mean "church building" in the USA, which is why I was unclear as to what you meant. It's Sandra, by the way. :D

No, it's not okay to bar people from public worship. It's also not okay to have a service disrupted by screaming for an extended period of time. I'm not sure that you can, or should, make a rule to fit all cases. It's better to try to find the best fit for all concerned - to have services run decently and in order, and to love the individuals within the body of Christ.

As I've said, the better solution would have been for the mother to discuss the situation with the church leaders beforehand, especially those leading any group for four year olds. They may have been able to take the lady's daughter and look after her physical needs, and also provide a programme in which she could learn about God in a programme which is appropriate for her age. (Yes, I'm a teacher.) :) We have an excellent children's ministry. The four and five year olds at my church sing and clap and dance and stomp their feet and do craft activities as they learn about God. I imagine that they would be less excited by our extended period of worship when they can't read the words, and would not understand the prayer time or the sermon. I'm sure many of you have churches like this, too.

[Light Hearted]

Sam: Jason explained to me that you use the word "sanctuary" to mean "church building" in the USA, which is why I was unclear as to what you meant. It's Sandra, by the way. :D

No, it's not okay to bar people from public worship. It's also not okay to have a service disrupted by screaming for an extended period of time. I'm not sure that you can, or should, make a rule to fit all cases. It's better to try to find the best fit for all concerned - to have services run decently and in order, and to love the individuals within the body of Christ.

As I've said, the better solution would have been for the mother to discuss the situation with the church leaders beforehand, especially those leading any group for four year olds. They may have been able to take the lady's daughter and look after her physical needs, and also provide a programme in which she could learn about God in a programme which is appropriate for her age. (Yes, I'm a teacher.) :) We have an excellent children's ministry. The four and five year olds at my church sing and clap and dance and stomp their feet and do craft activities as they learn about God. I imagine that they would be less excited by our extended period of worship when they can't read the words, and would not understand the prayer time or the sermon. I'm sure many of you have churches like this, too.
This story really saddens me to think that a place that professes to show the love of Christ could turn away some of his sheep like that. Raising a child with special needs is not the same as raising a normally developing child so, I can understand this womans fears in leaving her child with someone who is not familiar with how to care for her child. Especially if the child had certain issues that could have been life threatening if handled improperly. As far as your suggestion that she should have talked to the church beforehand, what if she just decided that morning to attend? Should she have to wait to discuss things with the church beforehand? I know from a personal standpoint I recently began attending a new church and our first time there I brought my autistic son with me into the service with me. I did not know they had sunday school for kids and even if I had I still would have brought him with me simply because these people were strangers to me and not familiar with his tendencies to just take off running. He did get a bit disruptive because he was overstimulated but, rather than asking us to leave a kind gentleman came and sat next to us and tried to entertain Jordan to calm him down. After the service I was invited to attend a small group by one of the ladies whom then brought us down to their sunday school and introduced us to the teachers. I was then allowed to talk to the teachers and explain his special needs so that I felt comfortable leaving him there. The point I'm trying to make here is that being the parent of a disabled child is already an extremely challenging and isolating endeavor. One would think that if the church is truly the hands and feet of Christ that they would be going out of there way to accomodate ALL of his children. Not just the ones who sit quietly and follow the rules.

[LifeDvtd]

One would think that if the church is truly the hands and feet of Christ that they would be going out of there way to accomodate ALL of his children. Not just the ones who sit quietly and follow the rules.
OK, I've really held off saying anything. I didnt know what to say. I think that Tammy has worded exactly how I feel about this. Church has always been the one place I pretty much always feel love and accepted. I, for those who dont know, have a disability called cerebral palsy. It affects my walk,talk and hands(typing,writing,thos e sorts of things). While it is not like what this daughter in the article has, I can understand the thought of church being the one place she thought her and her daughter would feel accepted. I'd also like to point out that as the article states, 'It wasn't quiet.....The band was playing, people were singing and clapping and shouting 'hallelujah', and Teagan got excited. Because Teagan can't communicate verbally, Harvey said, she began squealing and letting out little screams."
I think there's a difference between a child who is being distruptive, having a temper tantrum, and a child who is squelling in excitement. Yes, children need to be quieted if it is a real disturbance, but again, this 4 yr old was doing this w/ the people playing music and singing. Is it that distruptive to have one of God's children singing in church in her own way?
God bless!
Lauren

[Light Hearted]

OK, I've really held off saying anything. I didnt know what to say. I think that Tammy has worded exactly how I feel about this. Church has always been the one place I pretty much always feel love and accepted. I, for those who dont know, have a disability called cerebral palsy. It affects my walk,talk and hands(typing,writing,thos e sorts of things). While it is not like what this daughter in the article has, I can understand the thought of church being the one place she thought her and her daughter would feel accepted. I'd also like to point out that as the article states, 'It wasn't quiet.....The band was playing, people were singing and clapping and shouting 'hallelujah', and Teagan got excited. Because Teagan can't communicate verbally, Harvey said, she began squealing and letting out little screams."
I think there's a difference between a child who is being distruptive, having a temper tantrum, and a child who is squelling in excitement. Yes, children need to be quieted if it is a real disturbance, but again, this 4 yr old was doing this w/ the people playing music and singing. Is it that distruptive to have one of God's children singing in church in her own way?
God bless!
Lauren
You've raised an excellent point Lauren. They were singing and clapping at the time so, how could I child squeling with delight be considered disruptive?

[sandie]

Tammy, neither you nor I were there, so neither of us can judge if the noise was disruptive or not. That is a question for the church concerned.

Yes, I believe the mother should have contacted the church beforehand. By calling the church office she would have known straight away if the church was going to be responsive to her daughter's needs. Our church secretary would have given her the contact details for the Sunday School leader, who would have invited her daughter to join the four and five year olds Sunday School group and to stay with her daughter to settle her in and give the leaders any information they might need. If a young child becomes upset in in Creche or Sunday School, one of the leaders brings them back to mum or dad in church. We have a boy with Downs Syndrome who is part of the Sunday School, and two adults in wheelchairs at church, including Ann, who dispenses hugs and kisses, weekly newsletters, letters and reminders of all kinds to get things done from the comfort of her wheelchair, as she is one of our main organisers.


On the other hand, if the church office was unresponsive, then it is time to call another church. As you have found, there are some churches who do a better job with people with special needs than others.

[Jason]

As Tammy said, she, and probably this mother, would not have felt comfortable leaving the child with strangers.

[Sam!]

Making others uncomfortable and being disruptive are two different things. While the band was playing, the child should have been allowed to worship the only way she knows how. Others' discomfort is something that needs to be dealt with; punishing Teagen was not the right way to do that.

[Light Hearted]

Tammy, neither you nor I were there, so neither of us can judge if the noise was disruptive or not. That is a question for the church concerned.

Yes, I believe the mother should have contacted the church beforehand. By calling the church office she would have known straight away if the church was going to be responsive to her daughter's needs. Our church secretary would have given her the contact details for the Sunday School leader, who would have invited her daughter to join the four and five year olds Sunday School group and to stay with her daughter to settle her in and give the leaders any information they might need. If a young child becomes upset in in Creche or Sunday School, one of the leaders brings them back to mum or dad in church. We have a boy with Downs Syndrome who is part of the Sunday School, and two adults in wheelchairs at church, including Ann, who dispenses hugs and kisses, weekly newsletters, letters and reminders of all kinds to get things done from the comfort of her wheelchair, as she is one of our main organisers.


On the other hand, if the church office was unresponsive, then it is time to call another church. As you have found, there are some churches who do a better job with people with special needs than others.
You are right we weren't there but, I think it's pretty much a safe guess that a bit of joyful squeling made by a small child amidst singing and clapping was hardly considered disruptive and even if it was this was a one time event. Do you think if Christ had been there he would have thrown them out for it?

Your statement that she should have called the church beforehand makes the assumption that she had planned ahead of time to go there. What if this was not the case? What if like me she just decided that morning she wanted to go to that church? I'm not saying your suggestion was a bad one Sandie but, not all of us are that organized that we can think that far ahead.

[sandie]

As Tammy said, she, and probably this mother, would not have felt comfortable leaving the child with strangers.

That's the point of the mother meeting the staff, and staying with the child. That may be a few minutes, or a couple of weeks.