23 Minutes In Hell by Bill Wiese

[N0th1n9C0mpares]

I doin't know if anyone has read this book. I got it for Christmas. Weather you beleive it is true or not, I still think it is a great testimony. This book is defidently life changing. For me it was atleast. The descriptions of hell was scary, and would defidently bring people closer to God. I know it helped me stop sinning. There's another book like this...about Heaven. "90 Minutes In Heaven". That one was good too. It is incredible when they describe both. Heaven seems awesome. I just want to see anyone else's input on the book who read it...let me know...

Andrew

[Unstereotypical]

Also check out 2 books very similar: A Divine Revelation of Hell, and A Divine Revelation of Heaven.

Warning: A Divine Revelation of Hell might literally scare the Hell/The Pit out of you. It is a little similar to Dante's Inferno book, except Divine Revelation doesn't have Hell in 9 Plains for each different sin.

[Johnny 59]

And just where have they reportedly gotten these "revelations" of hell?

[bholdj]

And just where have they reportedly gotten these "revelations" of hell?

adam sandler duh :p

[Unstereotypical]

Read the books. You'll find out. Jesus Himself told gave these people the revelations.

You don't get massive revelations like that from something trival like the easter bunny or santa claus if that is what you are referring to?

[Heaven Sent777]

Yes this is an awesome testiomony Bill is very good friends with my Pastor and is part of my church family now ever since he came to testify The Lord has connected him to us, his testimony will change your life! Buy the Book and give it to the Lost as a gift.

[bholdj]

Read the books. You'll find out. Jesus Himself told gave these people the revelations.

You don't get massive revelations like that from something trival like the easter bunny or santa claus if that is what you are referring to?

sorry, i had just watched "Little Nicky" before i made that first post, just trying to have alittle fun :D . I fully believe that something like your describing can only come from Jesus Christ :cool:

[BethelTraumaRN]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Christ gave them revelations of Hell, because that would kind of infer that they had a choice as to whether to end up there or not, which isn't the case at all.

I've heard of the books and the authors were featured in some video my FORMER "pastor" showed the youth group once...I pretty much don't believe the encounters, but whatever ya'll wanna believe is totally sweet with me.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Also check out 2 books very similar: A Divine Revelation of Hell, and A Divine Revelation of Heaven.

Warning: A Divine Revelation of Hell might literally scare the Hell/The Pit out of you. It is a little similar to Dante's Inferno book, except Divine Revelation doesn't have Hell in 9 Plains for each different sin.


this book is bullcrap. utter pentecostal sensational nonsense!!!

how about reading the parable of lazarus and the rich man and then explain to me why Jesus would walk someone through hell?!?!? as if Jesus needs Baxter's testimony because his Word must not be sufficient!


the church is in a pitiful state when books like these two pieces of rubbish are held with any regard.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Read the books. You'll find out. Jesus Himself told gave these people the revelations.

You don't get massive revelations like that from something trival like the easter bunny or santa claus if that is what you are referring to?

muhammad had massive revelations. he must be true since God gave them to him.

what a joke

[lilmikey]

this book is bullcrap. utter pentecostal sensational nonsense!!!

how about reading the parable of lazarus and the rich man and then explain to me why Jesus would walk someone through hell?!?!? as if Jesus needs Baxter's testimony because his Word must not be sufficient!


the church is in a pitiful state when books like these two pieces of rubbish are held with any regard.
Of course it is to you:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Have you read the book

[BethelTraumaRN]

muhammad had massive revelations. he must be true since God gave them to him.

what a joke


WHAT! WHAT! OMG You are BRILLIANT!!

VEEERY VERRRY WELL said!!

I agree wholeheartedly, 100%!

You ROCK.

[N0th1n9C0mpares]

For those who ask why Jesus would walk a man through hell...he didn't. If you read the book, which you should gain knowledge about before speculating, and jumping to conclusions, he explains that God didn't send him to hell....God actually Saved him from it. In the book, the man says he's about to be thrown into a pit of fire, when suddenly he elevates, out into a tunnel, and meets Jesus, who brings him to Heaven. Jesus then explains to him, that the man was not sent there to suffer, but He wants the man to give a message back to the people of earth. He tells them that He is coming VERY VERY soon, and that man was shown the sufferings of hell, to explain to the world, for those who would be going there, how bad it is, and to change before time runs out. It is like a warning. God didn't send him there, nor did he wish to make him suffer. God's ultimate goal is for none of us to suffer. God showed him hell, so he could bring back the memories as a warning to us. You should be thankful for it. Now you may not beleive it is true or not, but still it is a great testimony, and could be very inspiring to many, including I. It may not be accurate, or right...but the message behind it is enough to let someone be saved.

Andrew

[Unstereotypical]

Tulip, just wondering.

Why do you ABSOLUTELY HATE pentecoastals and anything having to do with Pentecostals?!

Did a pentecostal mistreat you in the past or something?

Everything I read in your post was total hate speech.

I saw nothing but pure hatred in everything you said.

Keep that up, and no one is going to talk to you at all, if you are going to be so bullheaded about everything.

There I said it. Good day Mr. Negativity.



Also, do you also throughly hate Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, and Angleicans b/c they don't agree with your little viewpoints?!!

By your speech, it certain does appear that way.


I am not ashamed to say this.

You have belittled almost everyone on this messageboard whenever they post anything the slightest bit Pentecostal, and you throughly tick me off to no extent b/c of that.

I don't care if you have a million Ph.D.'s and letters beside your name. Going around and belittling and treating people like dirt b/c they are Pentecostal, or say something that might cross your ideas, gives you NO RIGHT to treat them like a disease.


Sorry for sounding off like that, but that throughly ticked me off to see high and mighty know it alls try to belittle anyone who makes a suggestion or says anything pentecostal to them.

You have a right to your opinion, but at least be more discrete about it than just throwing out hate speech.

That's all I have to say on that.

[lilmikey]

Tulip, just wondering.

Why do you ABSOLUTELY HATE pentecoastals and anything having to do with Pentecostals?!

Did a pentecostal mistreat you in the past or something?

Everything I read in your post was total hate speech.

I saw nothing but pure hatred in everything you said.

Keep that up, and no one is going to talk to you at all, if you are going to be so bullheaded about everything.

There I said it. Good day Mr. Negativity.



Also, do you also throughly hate Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, and Angleicans b/c they don't agree with your little viewpoints?!!

By your speech, it certain does appear that way.


I am not ashamed to say this.

You have belittled almost everyone on this messageboard whenever they post anything the slightest bit Pentecostal, and you throughly tick me off to no extent b/c of that.

I don't care if you have a million Ph.D.'s and letters beside your name. Going around and belittling and treating people like dirt b/c they are Pentecostal, or say something that might cross your ideas, gives you NO RIGHT to treat them like a disease.


Sorry for sounding off like that, but that throughly ticked me off to see high and mighty know it alls try to belittle anyone who makes a suggestion or says anything pentecostal to them.

You have a right to your opinion, but at least be more discrete about it than just throwing out hate speech.

That's all I have to say on that.
You took the words outta my mouth. Anything that does not line up with his little doctrine and his ideas of God, He mocks.

He reminds me of my civ teacher. I did like the guy though. He just took every opportunity he had to belittle Christianity(it seemed like that anyway)

I'm also reminded of a group of people in Jesus day who didn't agree with him
So sad:( :(

So sad

p.s you might as well save you are talking to a brick wall. That's why I dont argue anymore. Cause obviously everybody else is wrong

[BethelTraumaRN]

Ummm....

I just reallised that I quoted the wrong person in my post....I meant all that excitement to go toward TULIP5Points. Cheers to you, bud, & PM me sometime! We can talk- cos I think you & I share the same views.

Hearts & Hugs
Cheers

[Kyle's dad]

I doin't know if anyone has read this book. I got it for Christmas. Weather you beleive it is true or not, I still think it is a great testimony. This book is defidently life changing. For me it was atleast. The descriptions of hell was scary, and would defidently bring people closer to God. I know it helped me stop sinning. There's another book like this...about Heaven. "90 Minutes In Heaven". That one was good too. It is incredible when they describe both. Heaven seems awesome. I just want to see anyone else's input on the book who read it...let me know...

Andrew

I heard that this book was complete garbage. Since when are we called to scare people into faith??

[lilmikey]

Ummm....

I just reallised that I quoted the wrong person in my post....I meant all that excitement to go toward TULIP5Points. Cheers to you, bud, & PM me sometime! We can talk- cos I think you & I share the same views.

Hearts & Hugs
Cheers
The difference between you two is that you get along with people and dont tear them down and be sarcastic when you dont agree with them

[N0th1n9C0mpares]

I think this book basically comes down to what you beleive. For me, I'm still struggling with wethere I beleive in it or not. But I think what he described is enough for someone to have better faith, and it did for me. I know you heard the book was grabage, but you didn't read it for yourself. It helped me out with sin, and struggling, and it was enough to let me turn that around. It was like an answer to my perayers, and was all I needed to know, to help me stop the sin. But yeah, it all depends on what you beleive. It may not be true, and it could be...who are we to judge? In anywayh, the message he gives is awesome, and is completely for the Lord. I think that alone is great.

Andrew
16 years old

[BethelTraumaRN]

^ You're probably right.
Cheers luv

[lilmikey]

I think this book basically comes down to what you beleive. For me, I'm still struggling with wethere I beleive in it or not. But I think what he described is enough for someone to have better faith, and it did for me. I know you heard the book was grabage, but you didn't read it for yourself. It helped me out with sin, and struggling, and it was enough to let me turn that around. It was like an answer to my perayers, and was all I needed to know, to help me stop the sin. But yeah, it all depends on what you beleive. It may not be true, and it could be...who are we to judge? In anywayh, the message he gives is awesome, and is completely for the Lord. I think that alone is great.

Andrew
16 years old
Even if it is complete trash(I dont know if it is or not). There is absolutly no reason why it could not be life changing.

I mean it's not like the guy would wake up one day and say

"Hey I think I'll write a book on Hell and make people think God took me there and showed it to me."

That would be a stupid waste of time .

And lets say that IF that vision was not given by God but Satan. That would also be dumb because Why would Satan show you Hell? If anything He would show you a land of utopia and tell you there is no Hell.

[bholdj]

Tulip, just wondering.

Why do you ABSOLUTELY HATE pentecoastals and anything having to do with Pentecostals?!

Did a pentecostal mistreat you in the past or something?

Everything I read in your post was total hate speech.

I saw nothing but pure hatred in everything you said.

Keep that up, and no one is going to talk to you at all, if you are going to be so bullheaded about everything.

There I said it. Good day Mr. Negativity.



Also, do you also throughly hate Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, and Angleicans b/c they don't agree with your little viewpoints?!!

By your speech, it certain does appear that way.


I am not ashamed to say this.

You have belittled almost everyone on this messageboard whenever they post anything the slightest bit Pentecostal, and you throughly tick me off to no extent b/c of that.

I don't care if you have a million Ph.D.'s and letters beside your name. Going around and belittling and treating people like dirt b/c they are Pentecostal, or say something that might cross your ideas, gives you NO RIGHT to treat them like a disease.


Sorry for sounding off like that, but that throughly ticked me off to see high and mighty know it alls try to belittle anyone who makes a suggestion or says anything pentecostal to them.

You have a right to your opinion, but at least be more discrete about it than just throwing out hate speech.

That's all I have to say on that.

I actually likes Tulip's style, im learning evrey day that the world is not built to suit the sensitivities of others. Its a cold, dark, and mean place, and what you do is, you talk to guys like Tulip, and build a skin of steel from it.

Unfortunatley, except for a select few people on the boards, people that tulip talk's to are made of glass. They break at the first sign of offensiveness.

[bholdj]

The difference between you two is that you get along with people and dont tear them down and be sarcastic when you dont agree with them

see my post to sterotypical :cool:

[bholdj]

as for the book. Scripture has two places I know of in the new testament that indicate that God is someone to be feared

"knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men" II corinthians 5:11

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" Hebrews 10:31

However, I agree with Tulip and Kyle's dad. Christ should be glorified as the Redeemer of sinners, not as the way out of hell.

[BethelTraumaRN]

bholdj: I agree with your post about the world and sensitivity. It's totally true. VERY good point.

[Valpo]

we're supposed to fear the Lord, nowhere in scripture is it said that we should fear the fiery depths of hell over God. No one comes to Christ because they dont want to burn, that's not even faith, theyd run to anything that kept them from burning, how about Jesus died on the cross to save their sin and that alone breaks them down and makes them believe? Call me old fashion...

[lilmikey]

Oh he does not offend me or anything. I frankly dont care what he says when it comes to this kinda stuff. He just gets on my nerves sometimes(like I, his). But I still like him.

His posts are actually quite humorous:D :D

Dont worry Tulip your still a cool guy I just dont agree with you on doctrine issues

[BethelTraumaRN]

^ Awwwww! That's cute youguys :)
heehee...I'm a GIRL! DEAL with it! ;)

Tulip: You STILL haven't PM-d me yet! What are you waiting for?? We can chat it up!

[lilmikey]

^ Awwwww! That's cute youguys :)
heehee...I'm a GIRL! DEAL with it! ;)

Tulip: You STILL haven't PM-d me yet! What are you waiting for?? We can chat it up!
I was referring to Tulip. But dont worry I think yer cool too.:D :D :p

[BethelTraumaRN]

lilmikee: I know you were referring to Tulip. I thought it was cute that you thought he was still a cool guy :)

And thanks, I am SO cool! *LOL* And extremely humble....haha

[bholdj]

i think jason is becoming a star on this thread. Might as well pm him and ask for autograph :D

[Mugirl04]

You took the words outta my mouth. Anything that does not line up with his little doctrine and his ideas of God, He mocks.

He reminds me of my civ teacher. I did like the guy though. He just took every opportunity he had to belittle Christianity(it seemed like that anyway)

I'm also reminded of a group of people in Jesus day who didn't agree with him
So sad:( :(

So sad

p.s you might as well save you are talking to a brick wall. That's why I dont argue anymore. Cause obviously everybody else is wrong
I think you guys are wrong it wasn't a hate speech. I am very skeptical of this book as well. We should no scare ppl into christianity. I don't know if you heard of this event.. but it is a dramatic series where you die and you basically go to hell... I don't think this loving God. I think that you love God with all you heart not b/c you want to be saved from hell then you are just being saved for yourself

[Mugirl04]

Even if it is complete trash(I dont know if it is or not). There is absolutly no reason why it could not be life changing.

I mean it's not like the guy would wake up one day and say

"Hey I think I'll write a book on Hell and make people think God took me there and showed it to me."

That would be a stupid waste of time .

And lets say that IF that vision was not given by God but Satan. That would also be dumb because Why would Satan show you Hell? If anything He would show you a land of utopia and tell you there is no Hell.
maybe he wanted to make money

[Kyle's dad]

we're supposed to fear the Lord, nowhere in scripture is it said that we should fear the fiery depths of hell over God. No one comes to Christ because they dont want to burn, that's not even faith, theyd run to anything that kept them from burning, how about Jesus died on the cross to save their sin and that alone breaks them down and makes them believe? Call me old fashion...


There you go again, makin sense with good theology. When will you learn??!!;) :D

[Kyle's dad]

maybe he wanted to make money


Exactly what I was thinking when I read that post.

[Valpo]

There you go again, makin sense with good theology. When will you learn??!!;) :D

haha, ill never learn

[Howlin' Wolf]

my retort
1. i have read the books that unstereotypical had mentioned. i have not read this 23 minutes in hell. either way, per the parable of the rich man and lazarus, we see that God will not take a man to hell so that he may tell others how scary it is. God doesnt work that way. never has, never will.

2. the problems that i have with pentecostal doctrine are extensive. in regards to this thread, these books are based on conjuring up feelings of fear and looking to take that fear and force faith to spring out of it. pentecostal worship services are the same except, instead of fear, they use emotional experiences. in addition, the extreme misuse and misapplication of tongues and the mystreriously unbiblical slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, and the trance like swaying that all occurs at the leading of a minister, who usually has never been to seminary. we can also thank pentecostals for the seeker sensitive movement.

unstereotypical, i can keep going if you'd like.

[lilmikey]

my retort
1. i have read the books that unstereotypical had mentioned. i have not read this 23 minutes in hell. either way, per the parable of the rich man and lazarus, we see that God will not take a man to hell so that he may tell others how scary it is. God doesnt work that way. never has, never will.

2. the problems that i have with pentecostal doctrine are extensive. in regards to this thread, these books are based on conjuring up feelings of fear and looking to take that fear and force faith to spring out of it. pentecostal worship services are the same except, instead of fear, they use emotional experiences. in addition, the extreme misuse and misapplication of tongues and the mystreriously unbiblical slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, and the trance like swaying that all occurs at the leading of a minister, who usually has never been to seminary. we can also thank pentecostals for the seeker sensitive movement.

unstereotypical, i can keep going if you'd like.

I think some Peneticostal churches lack order. I dont think there is anything wrong with speaking in tongues and havin a good time in the service. But I think some penticostals get caught up in what you call is sensationalism. Christainity isn't about speaking in tongues and dancing around all the time. There is a time and a place for everything.

Biblical order dictates that

one message and one interpretation

But yet in some churches you have fifty people trying to out do each other and no interpretation. That is out of order

[qwert_gomer]

I doin't know if anyone has read this book. I got it for Christmas. Weather you beleive it is true or not, I still think it is a great testimony. This book is defidently life changing. For me it was atleast. The descriptions of hell was scary, and would defidently bring people closer to God. I know it helped me stop sinning. There's another book like this...about Heaven. "90 Minutes In Heaven". That one was good too. It is incredible when they describe both. Heaven seems awesome. I just want to see anyone else's input on the book who read it...let me know...

Andrew
I read it when it first came out and I totally agree with you.

[Mugirl04]

I think some Peneticostal churches lack order. I dont think there is anything wrong with speaking in tongues and havin a good time in the service. But I think some penticostals get caught up in what you call is sensationalism. Christainity isn't about speaking in tongues and dancing around all the time. There is a time and a place for everything.

Biblical order dictates that

one message and one interpretation

But yet in some churches you have fifty people trying to out do each other and no interpretation. That is out of order
This is probably out of place... but I have a problem with feeling base doctrine. From my experience ppl who get on God highes usually get of lows real fast and lose there faith

[lilmikey]

This is probably out of place... but I have a problem with feeling base doctrine. From my experience ppl who get on God highes usually get of lows real fast and lose there faith
I agree that salvation is not about feeling but that does not mean that when God touches you you wont feel it.

[BethelTraumaRN]

I JUST thought of something....

So, these guys (or is it this guy? I dunno) claim that God gave them a 'vision' of Hell, right?
Where is their Biblical proof/backup? Where, might I ask, does it suggest or outright state that God might/has/will give/given/ visions of Hell to anyone, much less His children??
Where does it even maaaaaaaaaaaybe possibly say that people can get a taste of Hell? To me, that's like that whole ridiculous (no offence) Baptist thing of "fire insurance".
AND, it's not man's choice whether they are saved, they are elected by God! *sigh* I'm about to go ballistic, so I'm gonna stop....*LOL*

My point is, I think those who wrote these/this book(s) were high on something when they wrote them...Or maybe they got ahold of some bad Chinese food...Test it against what God's word says, and I think that you'll find this is, as Tulip said, a load of bull.

[N0th1n9C0mpares]

lol...ummm....sorry to mention this, but during the whole book, he has Bible verses written all over it, to prove stuff like that lol, sorry. Good idea though.

Andrew

[Kyle's dad]

lol...ummm....sorry to mention this, but during the whole book, he has Bible verses written all over it, to prove stuff like that lol, sorry. Good idea though.

Andrew


I think the question was more, what is his biblical basis to support the idea that, of all the people in the world, he was the one chosen to experience this particular revelation. Anyone can make up images of hell and then defend that imagery through creative proof-texting.

Sorry, still suspicious, although I probably will read the book at some point. If nothing else, it sounds like good entertainment.

[bvc]

we're supposed to fear the Lord, nowhere in scripture is it said that we should fear the fiery depths of hell over God. No one comes to Christ because they dont want to burn, that's not even faith, theyd run to anything that kept them from burning, how about Jesus died on the cross to save their sin and that alone breaks them down and makes them believe? Call me old fashion...
There you go again, makin sense with good theology. When will you learn??!!;) :DWhy do we need saved from sin, if there's no punishment for it? You can not separated 'saved from sin' and hell.
1. Hell does not separate one from God.
2. Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
Psa 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
Psa 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

[Valpo]

Why do we need saved from sin, if there's no punishment for it? You can not separated 'saved from sin' and hell.
1. Hell does not separate one from God.
2. Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

hell is complete separation from God, what are you talking about? And that word in the psalm is technically translated incorrectly, there was no word for hell in the Hebrew that word is Sheol

[BethelTraumaRN]

Actually ( to put a huge turn on things) we aren't saved from sin. We're saved from God, the wrath of God. God saves us from Himself.

Anyways.....People who are in Hell are totally ant eternally and completely seperated from God. That's probably mostly why it sucks so bad.

And I still think the guy who wrote it was high on something.....

[bvc]

...and...???

[Kyle's dad]

Why do we need saved from sin, if there's no punishment for it? You can not separated 'saved from sin' and hell.
1. Hell does not separate one from God.
2. Hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

Where did either one of us say that there was no punishment for sin???:confused:

All we're saying is that faith based in fear is not faith at all. Yes we use the law to drive people to repentance and show them that they need a Savior, but it's the Gospel that lifts people up in faith and frees them to share that faith with their neighbor out of love and not fear.

But I digress, please show me where either one of us said that there was no punsihment for sin. Please, this should be good.

[bvc]

where did I say either of you said there's no punishment from sin? Please, this should be good.

[BethelTraumaRN]

Umm...*scratches head*

I don't think my point was to say that neither of you believed in punishment for sin...If that's how you read my post, then I think you may have read it incorrectly....

I was just trying to help Valpo...or whoever it was....

[Kyle's dad]

where did I say either of you said there's no punishment from sin? Please, this should be good.

No problem, here you go.

Why do we need saved from sin, if there's no punishment for it?


Read your question. To ask why we need to be saved from sin if there's no punsihment for it suggests that one or both of us implied that there was no punishment for sin. Why else would you word your question that way?

[Kyle's dad]

Umm...*scratches head*

I don't think my point was to say that neither of you believed in punishment for sin...If that's how you read my post, then I think you may have read it incorrectly....

I was just trying to help Valpo...or whoever it was....

I was responding to BVC

[BethelTraumaRN]

O....nevermind then....*LOL*

[bvc]

Read your question. To ask why we need to be saved from sin if there's no punsihment for it suggests that one or both of us implied that there was no punishment for sin. Why else would you word your question that way?suggest is the key word there. You read into it, that's all. I can certainly see how and know why you did that, but I made no such implication.

Why did I word it that way?we're supposed to fear the Lord, nowhere in scripture is it said that we should fear the fiery depths of hell over God. No one comes to Christ because they dont want to burn, that's not even faith, theyd run to anything that kept them from burning, how about Jesus died on the cross to save their sin and that alone breaks them down and makes them believe?..and you agreed as if was great wisdom or something. Why do we fear the Lord? Because of sin only? Hell was created for the devil and his angels, but is where sin will take us, without Christ. You can not separate the two. You can not preach the cross to save from sin without preaching the cross to save from the end of sin. If there is no punishment there is nothing to be saved from. Yes, included in the complete work of the cross is sanctification by faith from sin, but salvation comes first. If you tell a sinnerJesus died on the cross to save their sinsave from what?

nowhere in scripture is it said that we should fear the fiery depths of hell over God.no one said or implied any such thing, unless I missed it. God created hell and sends sinners there, and that justifies its discussion.

People say the same about prophecy. That 'we shouldn't scare people into faith'. Being someone that, by myself and alone (as in...no christians or preachers or church present), realized the bible was the word of God through prophecy find these 'don't use scare tactics' comments rediculous. It was good enough for Jesus, eh? Learn from the master! Once again it comes down to balance, doesn't it?

[bvc]

Actually ( to put a huge turn on things) we aren't saved from sin. We're saved from God, the wrath of God. God saves us from Himself.

Anyways.....People who are in Hell are totally ant eternally and completely seperated from God. That's probably mostly why it sucks so bad.True we are saved from wrath but...

We are separated from God and without hope in this world, apart from Christ. We don't need hell for that ;) Probably why is sucks so bad before being 'saved'. ;)

Separated from awareness and knowledge of the existence of God and from his blessings are two different things ;)

..and yes, we are delivered from sin too ;)

[Kyle's dad]

..and you agreed as if was great wisdom or something. Why do we fear the Lord? Because of sin only? Hell was created for the devil and his angels, but is where sin will take us, without Christ. You can not separate the two. You can not preach the cross to save from sin without preaching the cross to save from the end of sin. If there is no punishment there is nothing to be saved from. Yes, included in the complete work of the cross is sanctification by faith from sin, but salvation comes first. If you tell a sinnersave from what?


I said it was good theology because I know where Valpo comes from theologically and I know that he and I are kindred spirits when it comes to theology. I know that Valpo, like me is a firm beliver in theology of the cross.

I totally agree in the absolute necessity of preaching the law so as to clarify why the cross was necessary and to clarify just what the cross saves us from, as does Valpo. In fact, I am regularly commenting on the importance of properly distinguishing law and gospel. In fact I believe I did just that a few posts ago. Yeah, here it is.


Yes we use the law to drive people to repentance and show them that they need a Savior, but it's the Gospel that lifts people up in faith and frees them to share that faith with their neighbor out of love and not fear.

So to re-iterate, yes the law is absolutely essential to drive people to the cross and to wake them up to the fact that they cannot save themselves, but faith itself is not drawn out of fear but from hearing the Gospel.


Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

When it comes down to it, I really think we are saying the same thing.

[Howlin' Wolf]

lol...ummm....sorry to mention this, but during the whole book, he has Bible verses written all over it, to prove stuff like that lol, sorry. Good idea though.

Andrew

the koran quotes the bible too.

good try though

[BethelTraumaRN]

Tulip: It's true....but were the verses used in that book talking about Hell, or defending their idea/notion that God actually gave them that 'vision' or 'experience'?

People, you have to remember that we aren't all about experience. Knowing God is MOSTLY intellectual.

[Kyle's dad]

Tulip: It's true....but were the verses used in that book talking about Hell, or defending their idea/notion that God actually gave them that 'vision' or 'experience'?

People, you have to remember that we aren't all about experience. Knowing God is MOSTLY intellectual.

I think you misinterpreted Tulip's point. He was not defending the book, he was refuting someone's attempt to defend the book by pointing out that the author quotes the Bible. Tulip pointed out the Koran as a way to show that quoting the Bible doesn't automatically validate anyone's claims about anything. At least that's how I understood what he was saying.

[BethelTraumaRN]

Kyle's Dad: No, that's exactly how I understood his point, I agree completely with it :)

The latter bit (starting with "People") was addressed to everyone else.

Does that even make ANY sense? Jason just rendered me speechless, so I might not be speaking very clearly right now ;)

[Kyle's dad]

Kyle's Dad: No, that's exactly how I understood his point, I agree completely with it :)

The latter bit (starting with "People") was addressed to everyone else.

Does that even make ANY sense? Jason just rendered me speechless, so I might not be speaking very clearly right now ;)

It makes sense now and I apologize for the misinterpretation. It does soud a little bit like you thought Tulip was defending the book though. It could just be the way I read it.


BTW: I like your theory about the author's, shall we say enhanced mental state. :D

[BethelTraumaRN]

Kyle's Dad: Thanks! *LOL* It's ok, you didn't do anything wrong :) You were just trying to save me from looking stupid, and that's awesome!

For the record: I DO NOT think Tulip is defending this book (which I PERSONALLY consider nonsense).

heehee. Hope that helps.

[River]

If you were to go and read this (http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell _Text.htm) then I don't really see much reason to buy the book...

[BethelTraumaRN]

Ok, so I just read what's on the link River posted, and listened to the things....

I laughed out loud.


PS- and can I just say CONGRATS to everyone for being SO civil (for the most part ;p) about this? (I just got screamed at by a Mod who, apparently was offended by something I said, and decided to bite my head off, chew it, and then spit it out again...Jason is administering talk therapy for that incident....*LOL* I loooove you babe!)
On secular boards fighting happens, but don't let it happen here. Regardless of whether we are a board family (which, we ARE! So I can pick at EACH and EVERY one of you! haha), we are brothers & sisters in Christ and that is something that is SO precious.

Much luv, hugs and those little floating hearts to all

[BethelTraumaRN]

ME again....lol

I think the most HILARIOUS part of this guy's experience on drugs *LOL* (aka: his 'time in Hell') is that he's completeley serious. Like, he's all monotone & there's no fear in his voice, no inflection....He's droning on like it's a bad sermon. It makes me laugh.
GET off the drugs, mate!!

[River]

ME again....lol

I think the most HILARIOUS part of this guy's experience on drugs *LOL* (aka: his 'time in Hell') is that he's completeley serious. Like, he's all monotone & there's no fear in his voice, no inflection....He's droning on like it's a bad sermon. It makes me laugh.
GET off the drugs, mate!!

I wouldn't say that he's on drugs... his wife believes him, so (assuming that it's false) he would have to have had a terrible dream or a psychological issue (maybe remembering past abuse as "Hell").

Either that or he's just blatantly lying.

[BethelTraumaRN]

That must mean they take happy drugs together....