The real story of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers

[Pouye]

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2006/07/29/kidnapped-in-lebanon-i-think-not/

I do not endorse everything this group has to say (agenda's etc.), but at least they are trying to keep the facts straight.

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2006/07/29/kidnapped-in-lebanon-i-think-not/

I do not endorse everything this group has to say (agenda's etc.), but at least they are trying to keep the facts straight.

Rock

its a blog!

[Howlin' Wolf]

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

post a credible source, rock...not a conspiracy driven blog

[bholdj]

as i stated before. Hebollozah shouldn't have been so stubborn for two Israeli soldiers and Israel shouldn't have called its entire force to wipe out southern Lebenon for two soldiers.

Both sides screwed up, and will pay internationally. God knows America would if we adopted Israel's policy in Iraq.

[Pouye]

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

post a credible source, rock...not a conspiracy driven blog

I guess you didn't see all the sources in the blog...

Rock

[Pouye]

I guess you disagree with the United Nations report, then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1839281,00.html

"There has been a heated debate on the internet about whether the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hizbullah that day were captured in Israel or in Lebanon, but it now seems pretty clear that they were seized in Israel. This is what the UN says, and even Hizbullah seems to have forgotten that they were supposed to have been found sneaking around the outskirts of the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab. Now it simply states that "the Islamic resistance captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine". Three other Israeli soldiers were killed by the militants. There is also some dispute about when, on July 12, Hizbullah first fired its rockets; but Unifil makes it clear that the firing took place at the same time as the raid - 9am. Its purpose seems to have been to create a diversion. No one was hit."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+from+Lebanon-+Hizbullah/Hizbullah+attack+in+north ern+Israel+and+Israels+re sponse+12-Jul-2006.htm

Rock

(C'mon, Tulip, let's hear it! *Forbes got it wrong, Pouye got it right!*)

[Howlin' Wolf]

ha ha
you posted the link from the Israeli minitry of foreign affairs. youre a joke, man. first a blog and now this. would you like me to cite al-jazeera or any arab paper? i havent because i know they wont hold water with you.

youve stooped to a new low

[Howlin' Wolf]

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp
According to The Anti-Defamation League, a strongly pro-Israel organization, Hezbollah did not kill a single person inside Israel during the five years before the invasion of Lebanon three weeks ago

[Pouye]

ha ha
you posted the link from the Israeli minitry of foreign affairs. youre a joke, man. first a blog and now this. would you like me to cite al-jazeera or any arab paper? i havent because i know they wont hold water with you.

youve stooped to a new low

My quote is from the Guardian in UK. You have been officially defeated on your facts about this incident. I side with the UN report and the Guardian, not the Arab press, who couldn't even get it right. FROM THE GUARDIAN:


"There has been a heated debate on the internet about whether the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hizbullah that day were captured in Israel or in Lebanon, but it now seems pretty clear that they were seized in Israel. This is what the UN says, and even Hizbullah seems to have forgotten that they were supposed to have been found sneaking around the outskirts of the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab. Now it simply states that "the Islamic resistance captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine". Three other Israeli soldiers were killed by the militants. There is also some dispute about when, on July 12, Hizbullah first fired its rockets; but Unifil makes it clear that the firing took place at the same time as the raid - 9am. Its purpose seems to have been to create a diversion. No one was hit."



Rock

[Pouye]

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp
According to The Anti-Defamation League, a strongly pro-Israel organization, Hezbollah did not kill a single person inside Israel during the five years before the invasion of Lebanon three weeks ago

Your map is wrong, *tee hee hee*, according to the UN. Just admit you were duped. I believed you at first when you talked about this incident. Now it's your turn to eat humble pie.

Rock

[Pouye]

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp
According to The Anti-Defamation League, a strongly pro-Israel organization, Hezbollah did not kill a single person inside Israel during the five years before the invasion of Lebanon three weeks ago

What?

"In October 2000, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) shot at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators on the border, killing three and wounding 20. In response, Hizbullah crossed the line and kidnapped three Israeli soldiers. On several occasions, Hizbullah fired missiles and mortar rounds at IDF positions, and the IDF responded with heavy artillery and sometimes aerial bombardment. Incidents like this killed three Israelis and three Lebanese in 2003; one Israeli soldier and two Hizbullah fighters in 2005 and two Lebanese people and three Israeli soldiers in February 2006."

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/08/08/israels-attack-was-premeditated/

By the way, the Guardian and this guy I'm quoting would be on "your" side. You should read it. I'm just trying to establish the FACT that the Israeli soldiers that were kidnapped were not kidnapped in Lebanese territory. You are wrong about that, so face it, and say "I'm sorry, I believed other reports that were wrong."

Rock

[Pouye]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm

This is what really happened.

By the way, Hezbollah themselves said:

"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine," the Hezbollah statement said." (From the BBC)

A little different than your map! Now Tulip is arguing with the UN, Israel, and Hezbollah themselves!

Keep going, and you will dig yourself deeper in a lie...

Rock

[Pouye]

http://www.un.org/news/dh/pdf/english/2006/14072006.pdf

Read it and weep, Tulip!

The only reason I started this thread is that Tulip had been telling everyone that the two Israeli soldiers that were captured on the 12th of July, 2006 were actually captured deep in Lebanon territory doing "incursions". It is this misinformation I want to clear up. I'm not addressing anything else in this thread. Once this is cleared up, this thread will be over.

Here is where Tulip's information is coming from (including his little map):

http://www.whatreallyhappened.co m/israeli_solders.html

The problem is, this information is wrong. It is a blog! Michael Rivero's webpage, to be exact.

Rock

[Pouye]

http://www.canadiancontent.net/en/jd/go?Url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071200262.html

In this article:

"Hezbollah said it carried out the attack about 9:05 a.m., when its fighters managed to cross the heavily fortified border near Shtula, an Israeli farming town of about 350 people. Hezbollah guerrillas fired on two Israeli army Humvees, killing three soldiers and capturing two others.

Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah, said an hour passed before Israeli forces set out to recover the captives, giving Hezbollah time to smuggle them to a place he called "safe and far, far, far away." He said the attack had been planned for months and was aimed at forcing negotiations that would win the release of three Lebanese held in Israeli jails."

Hezbollah's leader said it carried out the attacks ON ISRAELI SOIL!

News agencies have been changing their tunes, too:

5:41 AM ET, Associated Press Writer Joseph Panossian originally reported “The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon”

7:09 AM ET, Associated Press Writer Joseph Panossian had changed his report to read: “The Hezbollah militant group captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes along the Lebanese border on Wednesday.”

4:13 PM ET, Associated Press Writer Joseph Panossian had again changed his report, this time to read: “Hezbollah militants crossed into Israel on Wednesday and captured two Israeli soldiers. ”

That's because there have been a bunch of conflicting reports. Hezbollah says they did it in Israel. Israel says thy did it in Israel. The media gets it all goofed up (as per my first post, the blog), and soon nobody knows what happened. The media starts changing their tunes, and everything gets all confusing.

That's why I started this thread.

Here's from Aljazeera.net:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A5A917D4-76E6-46F6-A92B-7250249FD172.htm

Aljazeera even says it was a cross-border raid!

Rock

[Pouye]

ha ha
you posted the link from the Israeli minitry of foreign affairs. youre a joke, man. first a blog and now this. would you like me to cite al-jazeera or any arab paper? i havent because i know they wont hold water with you.

youve stooped to a new low

I've quoted Aljazeera. And here is the last nail in the coffin for this discussion. I was hoping Tulip would keep fighting it...

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hezbollah_upd1e.pdf

Rock

[Ehud Elijah]

Good job Pouye. :)

[bholdj]

i love Jason, but i could have swore i heard a man screaming as he fell down the flight of stairs :D (just kidding Jason) :D . And im not even informed enough to talk about this subject :cool:

[Howlin' Wolf]

rock, when i have time to scour google for hours, i'll expose your israeli propaganda

[Howlin' Wolf]

actually, i'll deal with it now. 1. notice how the israeli propaganda machine has the AP change his story twice. it wasnt because of discrepencies. its what the Israeli PR does. there was an excellent video posted on this here board not 2 weeks ago, describing their methods. they change it to "cross border", but the AP never says who crossed what border. and in the canadien article, it NEVER says that Narallah claimed that it crossed the border. not once. and throughout this whole ordeal, you assume that Narallah's silence means he agrees with your report.
here is what Nasrallah did say
"In order to fulfil a promise to free the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance captured at 9:05am [0605 GMT] two Israeli soldiers at the borders with occupied Palestine," Hezbollah said referring to its military wing
he never said he crossed the border, he said it was at the border.

furthermore, your sources rely on "according to the UN". why you'd feel the need to take the word of the UN, i'm baffled, unless you can use to prove a point. and why is the UN to be trusted as the authority on how this kidnapping went down. according to the Israelis, they played a part in the kidnapping
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0061.htm
so now, in the aftermath, you have Hezballah remaining silent, probably because it's PR department was flattened along with the rest of southern Lebanon, you have the Israeli's accusing the UN of conspiracy, and you have the UN, which initially was nowhere to be found in all of this, NOW saying that hezballah crossed the border. sounds like a stretch to me, especially in light of the AP being forced to change their story to suit the Israeli PR's agenda. btw, thanks for posting that. i would have been too lazy to try and find that

here is another link, of an earlier clash, that proves that Israel routinely crosses the border
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woleba224523762nov22,0,29 69932.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

in addition, the Guardian confirms that Israel routinely runs military incursions into Lebanon.

[Pouye]

actually, i'll deal with it now. 1. notice how the israeli propaganda machine has the AP change his story twice. it wasnt because of discrepencies.


No, it was because they got it wrong.


its what the Israeli PR does. there was an excellent video posted on this here board not 2 weeks ago, describing their methods. they change it to "cross border", but the AP never says who crossed what border.


Oh... so Israelis are making everyone change their their story.


and in the canadien article, it NEVER says that Narallah claimed that it crossed the border. not once. and throughout this whole ordeal, you assume that Narallah's silence means he agrees with your report.
here is what Nasrallah did say


I already quoted Nasrallah's detailed report. Keep reading.


he never said he crossed the border, he said it was at the border.


At the border seems different than your map...


furthermore, your sources rely on "according to the UN". why you'd feel the need to take the word of the UN, i'm baffled, unless you can use to prove a point.


Because the UN wanted their facts straight. Not only that but here are some more sources that confirm that the kidnapping was, in fact, on the Israeli side of the border on the road between Zarit and Shtula in northern Israel, Wednesday, July 12, 2006.

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=500&sid=810114
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm


and why is the UN to be trusted as the authority on how this kidnapping went down. according to the Israelis, they played a part in the kidnapping
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0061.htm


That doesn't matter, since Israel's report and the UN report are the same.


so now, in the aftermath, you have Hezballah remaining silent, probably because it's PR department was flattened along with the rest of southern Lebanon, you have the Israeli's accusing the UN of conspiracy, and you have the UN, which initially was nowhere to be found in all of this, NOW saying that hezballah crossed the border. sounds like a stretch to me, especially in light of the AP being forced to change their story to suit the Israeli PR's agenda. btw, thanks for posting that. i would have been too lazy to try and find that


They were not forced to change their story. They simply wanted to get it right. As per my first post, (yes, the blog), there were so many conflicting reports and anonymous sources that everything got confused.


here is another link, of an earlier clash, that proves that Israel routinely crosses the border
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woleba224523762nov22,0,29 69932.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

in addition, the Guardian confirms that Israel routinely runs military incursions into Lebanon.

I agree with you. I know that Israel ran incursions all the time. That is a different topic.

I don't really have an axe to grind with you, Tulip. Actuall, I quite like you, and I have been giving you a hard time, and I know I should knock it off. The deal is, I read some official press reports from the UN, Israel, and some other mainstream media (BBC, CNN, Guardian, Washington Post, Associated Press) and also some intelligence reports. They were all lining up. Then I read some other reports that were all different. I believed you when you said the Israelis were captured way inside Lebanese territory, but I was scratching my head, because if that was the case, then how could the UN condemn the kidnappings as kidnappings? If Israel was indeed running an incursion into Lebanon and then their soldiers kidnapped, they would simply be prisoners of war, and all the blame would have fallen on Israel for being in Lebanon to begin with.

I saw that blog talking about Joshua Franks report, and it all began to make sense. The report was here: http://www.guerrillanews.com/articles/2445/Kidnapped_in_Israel_or_Ca ptured_in_Lebanon

Rock