911 Conspiracy theories....

[Evanescence]

In our local paper, some guys were coming to our area to talk about their theory behind 911. They believe the Govt had a hand in it....

Interestingly, a recent poll indicated 1/3 of Americans believe that there is more to 911 than the Govt is saying. I dont know what poll or how many people poled....

One group, Scholars for 911 truth, claim the Govt blew up the towers and they have proof. Others think the Govt orchestated it, in order to justify the war in Iraq and create a situtation to get America into the Middle east, for our own interests. Also, to begin clamping down on tracking down Americans and instituting a police state.

So....

Could the US Govt been involved in the 911 attacks? Could they have orchestrated it and keep it quiet?

Were the 911 reports accurate and could they have ben tampered with? Should we trust our Govt and/or our President? Would he have know or could it have been done by sources deep in our Govt?

I know I don't trust our Govt or our President or VP, but I would have to have some serious evidence to believe any theory. I'm barely open to the idea, but will say I AM open to hear and entertain a theory.

Here are the links:

www.scholarsfor911truth.o rg
www.911truth.org

GO!!!! :D

[Evanescence]

Here's some bites from the Scholars for 911 Truth, website. Interesting.

Why Doubt 9/11?
James H. Fetzer

As the founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth (st911.org), I would observe that our members have established more than a dozen disproofs of the official government account, the truth of any one of which is enough to show that the government's account--in one or another of its guises--cannot possibly be correct. Here is an overview:

(1) the impact of the planes cannot have caused enough damage to bring the buildings down, since the buildings were designed to withstand them (as Frank DeMartini, the project manager, has observed), the planes that hit were very similar to those they were designed to withstand, and they continued to stand after those impacts with negligible effects;

(2) the melting point of steel at 2,800*F is about 1,000*F higher than the maximum burning temperature of jet-fuel-based fires, which do not exceed 1,800*F under optimal conditions, so the fires cannot have caused the steel to melt, which means that melting steel did not bring the buildings down;

(3) UL certified the steel in the buildings up to 2,000*F for at least six hours before it would even significantly weaken, where these fires burned too low and too briefly--about one hour in the South Tower and one and a half in the North--to have even caused the steel to weaken, much less melt;

(4) if the steel had melted or weakened, the affected floors would have displayed completely different behavior, with some asymmetrical sagging and tilting, which would have been gradual and slow, not the complete, abrupt, and total demolition that was observed;

(5) there was not enough kinetic energy for the collapse of one floor to bring about the collapse of the next lower floor, even if the impact of the planes and the ensuing fires had been enough to cause the steel to weaken, which means that, even if one floor had collapsed due to the impacts and the fires, that could not have caused lower floors to fall;

(6) there was not enough kinetic energy for the collapse of one floor to bring about the pulverization of the next floor, even if the impact of the planes and the ensuing fires had been enough to cause the steel to weaken and one floor to collapse upon another, which required a massive source of energy beyond any that the government has considered;

(7) heavy steel construction buildings like the Twin Towers, which consume more than 100,000 tons of steel, are not even capable of "pancake collapse", which can only occur with concrete structures of "lift slab" construction and cannot occur in "redundant" welded-steel buildings, such as the towers;

(8) the destruction of the South Tower in 10 seconds and of the North in 11 is even faster than free fall with only air resistance, which would have taken at least 12 seconds, which, as Judy Wood has emphasized, is an astounding result that would have been impossible without extremely powerful explosives;

(9) the towers are exploding from the top, not collapsing to the ground, where the floors do not move, a phenomenon that Judy Wood has likened to two gigantic trees turning to sawdust from the top down, which, like the pulverization of the concrete, the official account cannot possibly explain;

(10) pools of molten metal were found at the subbasement levels three, four, and five weeks later, an effect that could not have been produced by the plane-impact/jet-fuel-fire/pancake collapse scenario, which, of course, implies that it was not produced by such a cause;

(11) WTC-7 came down in a classic controlled demolition at 5:20 PM/ET after Larry Silverstein suggested the best thing to do might be to "pull it", displaying all the characteristics of classic controlled demolitions, including a complete, abrupt, and total collapse into its own footprint, where the floors are all falling at the same time, and so forth, an event so embarrassing to the official account that it is not even mentioned in THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT;

(12) the hit point at the Pentagon was too small to accommodate a 100-ton airliner with a 125-foot wingspan and a tail that stands 44 feet above the ground; the kind and quantity of debris was wrong for a Boeing 757: no wings, no fuselage, no seats, no bodies, no luggage, no tail! Which means that the building was not hit by a Boeing 757!

(13) the Pentagon's own videotape does not show a Boeing 757 hitting the building, as even Bill O'Reilly admitted when it was shown on "The Factor"; but at 155 feet, the plane was more than twice as long as the 71-foot Pentagon is high and should have been present and visible; it was not, which means that the building was not hit by a Boeing 757!

(14) the aerodynamics of flight would have made the official trajectory--flying at high speed barely above ground level--physically impossible; and if it had come it at an angle instead, it would have created a massive crater; but there is no crater and the government has no way out, which means that the building was not hit by a Boeing 757!

(15) if Flight 93 had come down as advertised, then there would have been a debris field of about a city block in size, but in fact the debris is distributed over an area of about eight square miles, which would be explainable if the plane had been shot down in the air but not if it had crashed as required by the government's official scenario.

There are more, especially about the alleged hijackers, including that they were not competent to fly the planes; their names were not on any passenger manifest; they were not subject to any autopsy; several have turned up alive and well; tthe cell phone calls appear to have been impossible; on and on. The evidence may be found at st911.org.


James H. Fetzer, Ph.D.
Founder and Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth

[Evanescence]

Been sniffing around some more....

Man, these folks are serious....

I'm still not convinced but here is some VERY interesting and in-depth, pics, schematics and complex research on the planes, explosions and footage in regards to the planes that hit the twin towers. There seems to be some interesting points in them...

Its from their message board and is pretty in-depth...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4538

[HotWireD]

It is obvious from the evidence, and I have checked it on lots of sites on the internet, that the same people who assasinated JFK did it - it is a world wide conspiracy that has been going on since Roswell.

GWB, along with the Illuminati (who hate the Catholic Church), the Catholic Church (we all know what they are up to after reading the Da Vinci Code (which I must admit I have not read (I just could not get into it)), the British Royal family (Da Vinci Code again) and the World Bank (Biggest debtor - the USA) and Federal Reserve (a private company that makes paper money for Americans which is legal tender all over the world) have contact with aliens. These aliens (possibly grey ones, the 'others' are not allowed near the planet earth) will not 'deal' with the Earth until we have one 'world' government - they have been giving stealth technology to the US government for decades. Crop circles* are made by special forces operatives to put us all off the track.

(A good friend told me all this after checking hundreds (if not thousands) of conspiracy sites over a period of two years and discovering the links between all the conspiracies).

Seriously though I personally believe the towers were blown up by explosives. After the buildings had been hit and the emergency services had examined them and decided that if they were not demolished, they may fall down anyway in a non-controlled manner and damage more buildings and kill more people.

I just cannot understand why the authorities did not just come straight out with it at the time and prevent all the conspiracies (if I am right in my assumption).

They may have been concerned about the backlash from the public that all those brave police officers, fire officers and members of the public still in the buildings had died, but they were willing to shoot down passenger aircraft if they could prevent a worse tragedy from occuring.

I do not think they did shoot down the aircraft on that day - it was an option they considered (and they admitted they considered) - I believe that the passengers had realised (from 'phone messages) what the hijackers intended to do and decided to have a go at saving themselves or at least saving anyone else from having to die when their plane crashed. They could have sat quietly in their seats and waited to die, but thought of the others on the ground that may also suffer. I think a memorial to them for their bravery would be in order.

I think there are a lot of unanswered questions.

From my experience, whenever I have had 'inside' information about some newsworthy issue, the news media has reported it wrong, or with inaccuracies, or with ommisions. I think this stems from all governments having a thing about secrecy and not trusting us to be able to cope with the truth.

Farenheit 911 had inaccuracies in the (few) bits I knew anything about.
Terrorstorm had inaccuracies in the some of the bits I knew about.
That makes me wary about accepting the parts I do not know anything about.

It is how I look at buying a new book - I go to the index, pick a subject I do know about and then browse that chapter. If I find that it conforms with what I already know, I feel I can accept the rest of the book as being at least as good as the bit I do know. If the chapters I browse through are nonsence I assume the rest is not to be trusted either.

I would hope we can trust the President of the US (he has information that none of us are party to), because if we cannot, it is not only the US public that are in trouble...

One site worth perusing if you want to get more confused is this one, the link was sent to me this morning...
http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics_1.html
Please note it is on a 'conspiracy' site, but it does 'try' to be 'factual' by linking to more scientific webpages.

* I have a good friend who believes that crop circles are produced by the anti-gravity engines of alien spacecraft. I know that any sensible alien (or human with an anti-gravity engine) would never turn it on so close to a large gravitational anomaly like a planet.

Please do not consider I am making light of all the deaths that occured. I find conspiracy theories to be funny, not the deaths of innocents.

We have to trust our governments (if we cannot, we are in deep doodie), take what they tell us with a pinch of salt, be vigilant, look at both sides of the story and make our own opinion without being swayed by people with an agenda of their own.

I do not think GWB & Tony Blair are telling the whole story, but then they have to keep some things secret for security reasons. Maybe if they told us the whole truth it would scare the pants of us. I get paid to help people, they get paid to run their countries (and are elected by the majority (I hope). I am an unelected government employee who can just about cope with my piece of the pie.

[Evanescence]

Of interest...

This one guy knew someone at the "Lets roll" Flight 93 website....

He did some searches on the ISP's of the people who were logging in. Look who was checking in....

LetsRoll911.org - Who is?

You wouldn't believe if we told you who is visiting this website! That's why we've been checking through our FTP logs, and capturing screenshots of the visitors of importance.

Who Comes to LetsRoll911.org? - Click here for an archive of login screenshots

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. State Department Logs in at 6:31 AM Washington Time, on 4.30.2004 and
once again starts their day @ LetsRoll911.org.....YAWN!

Parsons Brinckerhoff visits LetsRoll911.org - 2432 pages, 63 Megabytes!
Parsons Brinckerhoff of New York! See their Website!
Click here to see their ties to Homeland Security!

United Nations New York logs into letsRoll911.org on a Sunday morning! 157.150.195.47
United States Secret Service logs into LetsRoll911.org! 9 Times in May alone!

The U.S. Defense Department, The Pentagon, The U.S. State Department, The U.S. Department of Justice, The U.S. Military, The U.S. Intellingence Agencies, Foreign Governments, Intelligence Agencies, Local & State Governments, ALL Flock to LetsRoll! World Universities logging on in droves, Military bases log on in increasing numbers! No Let Up in sight! Story developing.... 911 Truth seeking groups Energize with news! 911 Truth Sites, Check your stats, and take notice of whos there! Stay tuned, more to come...LetsRoll911! 4.17.2004

City of NEW YORK logs into LetsRoll911.org!
U.S. Department of Justice logs in again, Regulars!
US Congress - House Information Systems Logs in again!
Russian Government logs into LetsRoll911.org!
50th Space Wing Logs in to LetsRoll911.org!
United Nations Development Program Log into LetsRoll911.org!
NATO Logs in to LetsRoll911.org!
Vienna - International Atomic Energy Agency Logs into LetsRoll911.org! - 5.12.2004
Naval Warfare Commands, Department of Defense, State Department all still Regulars!

Federal Government of Brazil Logs into LetsRoll911.org! - 5.5.2004
Goverment of Luxembourg Logs into LetsRoll911.org! 5.6.2004 Going to be a busy day!
Saudi Arabian City of Science and Technology logs into LetsRoll911.org!
Indian BBC Logs Into LetsRoll911.org 5.6.2004
Jordanian National Information Services 5.6.2004
French Aeronautical Space Agency logs into LetsRoll911.org! 5.6.2004

U.S. State Department Starts off - 5.6.2004 @ LetsRoll911.org!

Hey Colin, your up early! 5AM EST

U.S. FEDERAL AGENCIES/PENTAGON - All Over LetsRoll911.org - Like Shrapnel on an Iraqi-
Pentagon - General Dynamics Armaments Corporation stroll together @ LetsRoll911.org! 5.5.2004
Boston Scientific Logs in - Joins Rocket Scientists above! - General Electric Joins in!
Parsons Brinkerhoff logs into LetsRoll911.org! See their Website here! 144 pages- 6.6 Megs!
NASA Rocket Scientist's Join LetsRoll911.org - Regulars! - Kansas City Star Returns!
National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration Logs into LetsRoll911.org 5.5.2004
U.S. Senate Sergeant at Arms Logs in once again @ LetsRoll911.org - 3:10 EST 5.5.2004
Scottish Parliament Logs onto LetsRoll911.org! - 'Sir William Wallace' still cries: 'Freeeeeedom!' Chicago Tribune Logs back into LetsRoll911.org! 5.5.2004 (Rejected this story repeatedly!)
Switzerlands CS Holding Corporation Logs into LetsRoll911.org - 5.5.2004
Bank of America - 5.5.2004 SPAWAR.Navy.Mil - Pensacola (Website Here)
State Farm - Allstate - MTL Insurance - RCN Capital, Paramount - Boeing Computer Services
Virginia Institute of PolyTechnics - SouthPolyTechnics New Zealand 5.5.2004

100,000th - Unique Visitor To LetsRoll911.org! - 8 Weeks time! LetsRoll911.org rises to 28,000th most popular site on the internet. And is still rising fast! God blesses truth as well as slow motion video! God loves TIVO!

Saudi Arabian ARAMCO logs into LetsRoll911.org! 5.4.2004!
Scottish Parliament Logs onto LetsRoll911.org! - 'William Wallace Still says: 'Freeeeeedom!' 5.4.2004!!
Chinese Banks Roll onto LetsRoll in rising numbers!
Slovakian Banks Ahead of Europe; Log on in record numbers!
Will U.S. Military Support Bush after they see the Missiles at the World Trade Center?
How Long before the President's of Denmark and Germany see the Missiles at the WTC?
U.S. State Department Logs into LetsRoll911.org 5.3.2004 12:27PM! Probably to check headlines!

Probably just a coincidence, but thought I would mention it; 5.2.2004
Chase Manhattan Bank logs in; 13.02 megabytes; Same pageviews as NASDAQ!!!
NASDAQ Logs in with an amazing 13.02 Megs, and same pageviews as MS-AG-SWISS
Bank Morgan Stanley AG - Swiss Bank Branch Logs in; @ 13.02 Megabytes! 5.2.2004

Probably not a conference call amongst those who rule the world, But rather coincidental surfing habits of employee's of 3 of the Largest Financial Institutions in the World! All at the same time, with the same pageviews, and the same bandwidth, on a Sunday, here at LetsRoll911.org...Ya, thats the ticket! Ya. Ya...Just another coinkidink!

JAPANESE BANKS FIND LETSROLL911.ORG!

Bank of England - Global Crossing - Seen online Together at LetsRoll911.org! 5.1.2004

4.27.2004 - Chairman of Ways and Means, U.S. House Armed Services Committee Member, Congressman Phil Crane contacts Phil Jayhan - For Information on 911! - Call duration; 29 minutes! Promises U.S. House Armed Services Committee will Review LetsRoll911.org! Caller ID: House U.S. - 202-226-9928 - Call it! See what happens! Yet he calls under cloak of deception! WHY??? Developing-

Naval Undersea Warfare Center Division Keyport - Regulars for Weeks!



Australian Goverment of Tasmania logs onto letsRoll911.org! 5.2.2004!
Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs Logs into LetsRoll911.org! 5.2.2004!
KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA Ministry of Defense - Aviation Logs onto LetsRoll911.org 4.30.2004
EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT MINISTRY OF INFORMATION LOGS onto LetsRoll911.org! 4.29.2004
Polish, German, Czech, French, Norwegian, Canadian, Swedish and British
GOVERNMENT RESEARCH LABS all log onto LetsRoll911.org!
European, Middle East IP's FLOOD LetsRoll911.org!

4.29.04

U.S. Senate, Sergeant at Arms Logs in to LetsRoll911.org April 29th!
Wright Patterson Air Force Institute of Tech Examines LetsRoll911 - April 29th!
129.92.250.40

107,000 Unique Visitors - 47,000 + External links to LetsRoll911.org!

FEMA - Logs in 4:04AM Saturday Morning - Hello FEMA! 4.17.2004
Heres some of the Logins I was able to save; And this is just the Tip of the Iceberg!
There was one in there called 'No Match Found', and it only happens with this address; Can anyone supply the owner of that IP? Its a lot to keep up with, we are averaging 5000+ Unique Visitors a day now, and growing literally by the hour! And we just put this site up!

Global Crossing, Institute for Scientific Research, Hughes Network Systems & Colonial Pipeline all online at same time! Tonight, right now! The Great White North! - Canadians - One of Today's Heaviest Hitters! 4.16.04 Naval Undersea Warfare Center Division Logs onto LetsRoll! 4.16.2004
Insurance Companies - Flood LetsRoll911! 4.16.2004
French Consulate Logs into LetsRoll! Microsoft, Intel, login to Lets Roll with many Federal Agencies/Labs
Lets Roll911! Blazes a path across Washington D.C. - Washington IP's Flood Lets Roll!
Panama Investigations - Logs into LetsRoll! 4.16.2004
University Computer Science Labs Across the World Log into Lets Roll! - By the HUNDREDS! Welcome Hamburg! 4.16.2004
Department of Justice Returns to LetsRoll! 9:40Am 2.16.2004 (Hi John!)
Seen online at the same time as NASA, DISA, (Defense Systems Info Agency & The Texas Legislative Council)
TEXAS Legislative Council Logs in to Lets Roll!
Internal Revenue Service Logs in - Looking for someone to Screw no Doubt 4.16.2004
'If' 19 Arab Terrorist's from Saudi Arabia did this, then why all this activity?
NCTS - Washington.Navy.Mil Logs onto Lets Roll! 4.15.2004
FAA Surfs LetsRoll on Regular Basis! 4.15.2004
Broward County Public School System - Regulars! - Remember the Goat Story?
Associated Press Logs into LetsRoll! 4.15.2004 - 4.15.2004 2:10pm
SSA - Social Security Administration Logs in at same time as GSA! Both Log in at High Noon!
GSA - General Services Administration Logs in to LetsRoll! 4.15.2004 12:00PM
Canadian Technical Services Bureau - CSI - Logs into LetsRoll! Go Canada!
Carlisle Group Logs in to Lets Roll! Shell Oil, Unocal, Chevron, Baker Hughes Oil, Exxon, Amoco, British Petroleum, all surfing LetsRoll911! All heavy bandwidth hitters on 4.15.2004
United States Congress - House Information Systems - Logs in 4.15.2004 - 9:55am
U.S. Centers For Disease Control Log into LetsRoll! 4.15.2004
U.S. Seargent at Arms for U.S. Senate Logs onto LetsRoll! LetsRoll Reaches Capitol! 7:05am
Canadian Defense Research Establishment Logs onto LetsRoll! 4.15.2004
Worlds Most Powerfull Man,Rockefeller, Logs into LetsRoll911.org - Will he Impeach Bush? - Will King George the II's Boss give him the Boot...? Developing...
ARAMCO Logs in - Rockefeller has seen and knows about LetsRoll911!.org 1:38am April 15th!
Government of the Province of Ontario - Canada Logs onto LetsRoll911! 8:52PM
Lets Roll 911 Spreads across New York State - Port Authority of New York Log in
FAA - Federal Aviation Administration Logs on regularly @ Lets Roll 911!
Microsoft, Intel, Xerox Palo Alto Research Laboratories Log on Regularly @ Lets Roll 911!
Delta Airlines Logs on to Lets Roll 911! - Pass to United & American Airlines! Save them Billions!
LetsRoll911.org Strikes heart of Washington D.C. Nerve Center
NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY Logs on to Lets Roll 911! 1:53 PM Today! 4.14.2004
Boeing Computer Systems Log on to Lets Roll on regular basis
National Security Agency - Regular Visitors! Hey Condi!
Pentagon Logs in Daily - 4 Weeks Running
U.S. Military Bases Logging on in Record numbers!
Chicago Tribune, Chicago Sun Times, Daily Herald, all turn down story - Repeatedly!
Jesse Jacksons Rainbow PUSH - 'Not Interested in Message'
Canadian CBC Logs on to Lets Roll 911!
CBS Broadcasting Logs on to Lets Roll 911!
Canadian Royal Mounted Police Log in to Lets Roll 911!
Eglin Air force - Munitions Base - logs into Let Roll 911!
French Embassy & Aeronautics Logs on to lets Roll 911!
Los Alamos laboratories, Hughes Electronics - Log on to Lets Roll 911!
Canadian Governments log on as much as USA Government IP's!
Federal, State Governments - Heaviest Bandwidth hitter of 4.13.2004
Jet propulsion labs across the World - Log in to Lets Roll in Record numbers!
State Universities log on to Let Roll 911! by the Hundreds - Record numbers!
LetsRoll911 IP logs show U.S. State Department logins for almost 4 weeks now, almost every day!
Defense Department Logs on dozens if not hundreds of times to Lets Roll 911! on 4/13/2004
NASA Logs in to Lets Roll 3x on April 13 - 14th, 2004!

[HotWireD]

Of interest...

This one guy knew someone at the "Lets roll" Flight 93 website....

He did some searches on the ISP's of the people who were logging in. Look who was checking in....

LetsRoll911.org - Who is?

You wouldn't believe if we told you who is visiting this website! That's why we've been checking through our FTP logs, and capturing screenshots of the visitors of importance.

Who Comes to LetsRoll911.org? - Click here for an archive of login screenshots

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
List removed for space saving purposes


That is amazing! Especially the three banks all logging in together and browsing the same pages - appears a conference may have been going on.

Well Evanescence, you and I may be on some lists ourselves, what with your post and my reply.

If you and I disappear from the boards, maybe aliens are involved....!

[Evanescence]

Well, I was skeptical even as the planes hit....

But, here are 2 pieces of info that may be of interest....

In the summer of 2002, I dated a lovely lady that was 42 yrs young. I was 32, she was 41...no jokes please.

Anyway, her son-in-law was somehow invloved at high levels of defense in washington. Not a BIG wheel, but had access to those BIG wheels. I think he did have a top secret clearance.

Anyway, we got to talking about 911 and our Govt. She told me point blank...not to trust our Govt. That what she knew would frighten me. She told me point blank that Flight 93 was shot down. She told me she couldnt tell me why, but that it was.

Interestingly, a few months earlier (it sparked the conversation) I took some Amish dudes away to Canada hunting. On the trip, one guy told me how an entire community of Amish witnessed the plane being shiot down...missle and all. Amish are simple, plain folk but aren't dumb. They know an explosion in mid air and also know a missle/rocket when they see one.

I've heard this from other Amish as well, that the communiy out there saw it.

As for trusting our Govt and offiicals. No way. Until Christ parts the clouds and wipes the slate clean, corruption and villany to the highest will be imbeeded in Govts around the world. Especially the superpowers. The USA.

Sad but true...I trust no one....:mad:

[Pouye]

In our local paper, some guys were coming to our area to talk about their theory behind 911. They believe the Govt had a hand in it....

Interestingly, a recent poll indicated 1/3 of Americans believe that there is more to 911 than the Govt is saying. I dont know what poll or how many people poled....

One group, Scholars for 911 truth, claim the Govt blew up the towers and they have proof. Others think the Govt orchestated it, in order to justify the war in Iraq and create a situtation to get America into the Middle east, for our own interests. Also, to begin clamping down on tracking down Americans and instituting a police state.

So....

Could the US Govt been involved in the 911 attacks? Could they have orchestrated it and keep it quiet?

Were the 911 reports accurate and could they have ben tampered with? Should we trust our Govt and/or our President? Would he have know or could it have been done by sources deep in our Govt?

I know I don't trust our Govt or our President or VP, but I would have to have some serious evidence to believe any theory. I'm barely open to the idea, but will say I AM open to hear and entertain a theory.

Here are the links:

www.scholarsfor911truth.o rg
www.911truth.org

GO!!!! :D

There were hundreds of eye witnesses and some private video footage of the planes smashing into the towers. There were also cell phone calls that confirm that the people responsible for the attacks were non-Americans. The Government would have had to blow up it's own Pentagon, too, for this to be a government plot. The idea that the US government is behind these attacks is so outrageous, I would believe in Big Foot and Peter Pan before I would believe any wacko that would tell me that it was all planned by the US government.

Ya... like the US government blew up the dikes in Louisiana, too... right before the Hurricane struck. What a bunch of malarky. I will blow it all off as, "People who are suspicious of the government will blame them for anything."

If the Whitehouse was to blow up today, killing everyone in it except one except Dick Cheney (only badly wounding him), the conspiracy theory wackos would say that it was all planned by the Vice to take over the world.

Rock

[Evanescence]

There were hundreds of eye witnesses and some private video footage of the planes smashing into the towers. There were also cell phone calls that confirm that the people responsible for the attacks were non-Americans. The Government would have had to blow up it's own Pentagon, too, for this to be a government plot. The idea that the US government is behind these attacks is so outrageous, I would believe in Big Foot and Peter Pan before I would believe any wacko that would tell me that it was all planned by the US government.

Ya... like the US government blew up the dikes in Louisiana, too... right before the Hurricane struck. What a bunch of malarky. I will blow it all off as, "People who are suspicious of the government will blame them for anything."

If the Whitehouse was to blow up today, killing everyone in it except one except Dick Cheney (only badly wounding him), the conspiracy theory wackos would say that it was all planned by the Vice to take over the world.

Rock

I agree but there are supposed many holes in the whole thing.

Do cell phones work in planes? Mine didn't as I tried to get a signal and couldnt on many occassions.

Video and eyewitnesses don't prove WHAT and/or WHO was behind the attacks. Everything we have really is based on what our Govt tells us/told us.

In the link I showed, there were some pretty damaging images. One of an explosion just priory to the plane impacting Tower 2. Another which showed pretty clearly that a Boeing 747 couldn't have been the plane which hit...it was a bigger plane.

All this from these videos and photos you speak of Pouye.

I need more proof though.... :(

[Pouye]

The idea that planes could not have brought down the buildings because of supposed evidence is ubsurd. There are so many factors involved when you have that much weight and damage, that they cannot all be figured in. The supposed evidence that the planes *couldn't* have done it is so full of it. How does this supposed "professional" possibly know all of the factors involved? As far as I know, there is no test to date of 747's being used to bring down a large, tall structure. You cannot figure out those sorts of things via calculations. Every REAL scientist would tell you that. There are just too many variables to consider. Some things to consider:

Could some of the contents in the building itself (office equipment, paper, etc.), mixed with the highly potent airline fuel, caused super heated gases? (Answer: possible)

Could the engineers of the building have thought of all the complexities of two large jetliners crashing into their buildings? (Answer: no)

Is an impact of that magnitude different than they affects of an earthquake or other natural occurance? (Answer: yes)

Once part of the structure began to collapse, isn't it just as likely that weight and unbalanced nature of such a collapse could cause a domino affect? (Answer: likely, seen before in other situations)

How many buildings of this size have actually been TESTED in such circumstances? (Answer: none)

There are hundreds of other variables I haven't even mentioned.

Rock

ps. When someone in the know says, "Don't trust the government", that doesn't mean they are in on anything. What it most likely means is that there are embarrassing things about the event that either they flubbed up and then had to covered up (or else take more blame), or they might have had information that they withheld (or even "changed") so that they don't look so bad. This is common, and happens within every government on earth, not just the USA. I know that the government doesn't tell me (a joe blow) everything, and I don't expect them to. I know they cover things up (either to keep their ratings up, or for security reasons), but that doesn't mean they are inherently evil, and just want to destroy people. There are reasons the higher ups do things... some justifiable, some not; but if you or I were in their position, would we do anything different? Ask Chuck Colson...

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

these conspiracy theorists are moronic and hold no credibility with anyone not looking to pin something else on Bush. i hate Bush just as much as the next flaming liberal, but to say that the government was responsible is assanine!

those sites have an agenda and mold the truth.

[HotWireD]

There were hundreds of eye witnesses and some private video footage of the planes smashing into the towers. There were also cell phone calls that confirm that the people responsible for the attacks were non-Americans. The Government would have had to blow up it's own Pentagon, too, for this to be a government plot. The idea that the US government is behind these attacks is so outrageous, I would believe in Big Foot and Peter Pan before I would believe any wacko that would tell me that it was all planned by the US government.

Ya... like the US government blew up the dikes in Louisiana, too... right before the Hurricane struck. What a bunch of malarky. I will blow it all off as, "People who are suspicious of the government will blame them for anything."

If the Whitehouse was to blow up today, killing everyone in it except one except Dick Cheney (only badly wounding him), the conspiracy theory wackos would say that it was all planned by the Vice to take over the world.

Rock

1/ Thousands of eye witnesses, even millions. I was watching the news live when the second plane hit the towers - the news programme was showing it over the shoulder of the newsreader. It took three or four minutes before someone pointed out to her that this was a second aircraft and not replay footage. I think that makes me a witness too.

2/ Everybody knows that bigfoot costumes are a disguise used by aliens.

3/ Peter Pan is a story about a boy that never grows old - it could be me (mentally).

4/ There are millions of people who believe that we never went to the moon!

What surprises me is that when conspiracies develop, the people who are 'in the know' never bother to argue back. NASA was like this for years. I see their point 'any sane person knows there is no conspiracy, so why should we bother arguing with the conspiracy theorists?'

Eventually, they, and other scientists pointed out the inaccuracies of the science that the conspiracy theorists were using to prove their point (I could have done it, I have a basic understanding of physics and science, but I am not an authority).

Problem is, if the 'people who do know' do not put people right, the conspiracy theorists can use that 'silence' as evidence of denial. They are also left with free reign over the hearts and minds of the general poplace.

There were articles on Google News earlier today about how a very large percentage of the British public (in particular Muslims) believe there was a conspiracy about 9/11 and about the bombings in Spain and the United Kingdom. Staying silent is not the solution - the government cannot hope it will just go away (JFK was assasinated decades ago, the moon landings were years ago and people still have problems comprehending).

Result of not arguing and keeping silent...

Let us adopt Islamic family law to curb extremists, Muslims tell Kelly
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1219289.ece

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml
...Forty-five percent (of British Muslims) say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy...

...Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law...

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

...The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not...



How I see (part of) the world at the moment is that we have the beginnings of a religious war (Jihad?) - Muslims I have spoken to are quite open about it and Islamic websites do not hide it - the intention of Muslims (peaceful or not) is to install Islamic Law (I have been told that 'people of the book' have nothing to worry about, Christians and Jews will be able to worship freely and not suffer (but no witnessing to people)) in all countries - it is G_d's will that Islam should rule the world they have told me. Ironically, if this is the case, it will be the none believers (athiests, Pagans and Hindus) that suffer, many of whom are the very people stating that there is nothing to worry about.

The terrorists are operating at the same time and they can claim they are part of the Jihad (and supporting Islam) when, in my opinion, the intention of these terrorists is to destroy the 'wicked west' and that they are not spiritual or religious people at all and would harm their own people just as much once they have their own way.

Not only do we have a religious war going on, but we have people who do not believe it who are legitimate targets and would be (finally) subject to Sharia law if these terrorists get their way!

It is in the interests of the terrorists for us all to believe it is a conspiracy, it makes it easier for them to operate. It is called propaganda, not only governments use this psychological device effectively.

Our governments need to wake up, tell us what is really happening and what dangers we face. If they stay silent the terrorists, appeasers and conspiracy theorists get all the airtime. Unfortunately, the government is under restrictions itself about what it can and cannot say about people who threaten us. If I repeated some of the things I have been told by members of the public to my superiors I am just as likely to get the sack for being 'not politically correct' as to get promoted for pointing out that we have terrorist sympathisers in our community.

(Am I worrying about nothing?)

[Evanescence]

I'm with ya guys...like I said, I'm not convinced.....

Here's the problem with a corrupt Govt and conspiracies....

If you say, "Well what about this or that," in regards to the Govt or a conspiracy about that govt, either one can say there's a cover up or soemthing is being kept secret.

Its hard to trust the Govt or conspiracy theorists as they both have an agenda. Themselves.

BTW- Pouye, I'm 100% sure engineers factor in airliner collisions when engineering skyscrapers. I can't imagine a scenario that they DON'T factor in and calculate what might happen.

[Evanescence]

Our governments need to wake up, tell us what is really happening and what dangers we face. If they stay silent the terrorists, appeasers and conspiracy theorists get all the airtime. Unfortunately, the government is under restrictions itself about what it can and cannot say about people who threaten us. If I repeated some of the things I have been told by members of the public to my superiors I am just as likely to get the sack for being 'not politically correct' as to get promoted for pointing out that we have terrorist sympathisers in our community.


I think we should fear our Govt much more than some towel heads and their home made bombs.

Any Govt that scripts and screens news conferences that are supposed to be LIVE or unscripted, cannot be trusted....:mad: :mad: :mad:

[mat1583]

BTW- Pouye, I'm 100% sure engineers factor in airliner collisions when engineering skyscrapers. I can't imagine a scenario that they DON'T factor in and calculate what might happen.

I can assure you as well Pouye that the engineers do indeed factor in airline collisions, especially with some of the tallest buildings in the world. You cannot expect to build sky scrapers like that and not have measures to make sure a building won't collapse if a plane accidently flies into it.

I have heard many theories about flight 93, including one that I heard from a government employee. I choose not to say his name or really even the theory for obvious reasons.

Here's something interesting that I'm sure not too many people know about: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/

-washboard

[mat1583]

I think we should fear our Govt much more than some towel heads and their home made bombs.

Any Govt that scripts and screens news conferences that are supposed to be LIVE or unscripted, cannot be trusted....:mad: :mad: :mad:

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

-washboard

[Pouye]

I can assure you as well Pouye that the engineers do indeed factor in airline collisions, especially with some of the tallest buildings in the world. You cannot expect to build sky scrapers like that and not have measures to make sure a building won't collapse if a plane accidently flies into it.

I have heard many theories about flight 93, including one that I heard from a government employee. I choose not to say his name or really even the theory for obvious reasons.

Here's something interesting that I'm sure not too many people know about: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/

-washboard

Factoring in such a thing is one thing... actually achieving a real solution is entirely different. Many building are engineered to withstand certain catastrophies... but they don't all stand up to those catastrophies when they actually happen. Just because something is engineered to stand up to something doesn't mean it WILL pass the test. It means that it has a greater chance of passing the test than something that is NOT engineered for the event. You don't actually think that because something is engineered to withstand some event that it is guaranteed to do so, do you? I'm much more a realist than you are, I guess -- for I would have placed my bets on the Twin Towers collapsing over standing up to such a test. I've watched strong winds take down a huge bridge supposedly designed and engineered for high winds, etc. Don't you watch "Myth Busters"?

Rock

[mat1583]

Factoring in such a thing is one thing... actually achieving a real solution is entirely different. Many building are engineered to withstand certain catastrophies... but they don't all stand up to those catastrophies when they actually happen. Just because something is engineered to stand up to something doesn't mean it WILL pass the test. It means that it has a greater chance of passing the test than something that is NOT engineered for the event. You don't actually think that because something is engineered to withstand some event that it is guaranteed to do so, do you? I'm much more a realist than you are, I guess -- for I would have placed my bets on the Twin Towers collapsing over standing up to such a test. I've watched strong winds take down a huge bridge supposedly designed and engineered for high winds, etc. Don't you watch "Myth Busters"?

Rock

I agree with you in a way, but not in others (obviously :p). When structures are designed, they are engineered in a way to actually pass those tests. Engineering is a profession in which lives could be at stake if mistakes are made, so great care is taken to factor in every possible situation. Some engineers have said that while the trade centers were designed to withstand a plane crash, it was a much smaller plane with less fuel that was factored in. Also, most of the engineers agree that if the planes had hit any higher or lower on the towers, they would not have collapsed. Any higher and the force of the floors collapsing above would not have been sufficient to take out subsequent floors. Any lower, and the columns were thicker and could have withstood the fires and explosions. I cannot tell you exactly why the towers collapsed, and no other engineers have agreed on it either.

-washboard

[middletree]

I agree but there are supposed many holes in the whole thing.

Yeah, but there are holes in the theories presented by the conspiracists, also. I'll name just a couple:

1. The steel didn't need to melt in order for the towers to collapse. It gets weak around 500 degrees. Focusing on the 2000+ degree melting point is just a diversion and has nothing to do with the criteria for a collapse.

2. You mention some people who witnessed the plane being shot down. I have run into people who witnessed things that line up with the govt account. One janitor in Washington happened to be on top of his building, and the plane was just 20 feet above his head as it came down into the Pentagon.

Do cell phones work in planes? Mine didn't as I tried to get a signal and couldnt on many occassions.

But many family members said that they talked to their loved ones who were on the plane (Flight 93). Does anyone really think that they'd go along with a govt conspiracy?

In the link I showed, there were some pretty damaging images. One of an explosion just priory to the plane impacting Tower 2.

I've seen this same thing, and it doesn't look at all like another explosion.

[Musicdude]

I agree with you in a way, but not in others (obviously :p). When structures are designed, they are engineered in a way to actually pass those tests. Engineering is a profession in which lives could be at stake if mistakes are made, so great care is taken to factor in every possible situation. Some engineers have said that while the trade centers were designed to withstand a plane crash, it was a much smaller plane with less fuel that was factored in. Also, most of the engineers agree that if the planes had hit any higher or lower on the towers, they would not have collapsed. Any higher and the force of the floors collapsing above would not have been sufficient to take out subsequent floors. Any lower, and the columns were thicker and could have withstood the fires and explosions. I cannot tell you exactly why the towers collapsed, and no other engineers have agreed on it either.

-washboard

Looks like the terrorists did their homework. They knew exactly where to hit the building to cause the most damage.

[mat1583]

Yeah, but there are holes in the theories presented by the conspiracists, also. I'll name just a couple:

1. The steel didn't need to melt in order for the towers to collapse. It gets weak around 500 degrees. Focusing on the 2000+ degree melting point is just a diversion and has nothing to do with the criteria for a collapse.



Saying "it gets weak around 500 degrees" is a very general statement. The question you should be asking is exactly how weak, and what is acceptable. If you've taken some mechanical engineering class, you've probably studied at least some about stress and strain on structures.

Structural engineers have a rule of thumb to go by when designing a structure. With a dynamic load, a structure must be capable of bearing three times its maximum rated load. In a static structure such as commercial buildings, the standard ratio is 5 to 1. In other words, a structure must be able to sustain 5 times its load bearing rate (if it is rated at 1 ton, it must be able to carry 5 tons). For instance, if you have been in an elevator, you have no doubt seen the "maximum capacity" weight. This does not mean that the cables will break exactly at that weight. In fact the cable should be able to withstand 3-5 times that weight.

Going back to your "steel gets weak at 500 degrees"... Here's a nice little graph on how much steel weakens at given temperatures:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030818132750/http://www.corusconstruction.com/fire/fr006.htm

You can see by the graph that at about 550 degrees centigrade (celsius), steel retains 60% of its load bearing capabilities. In fahrenheit, that's about 1022 degrees. If we then consider the rule of thumb of 5 to 1, a steel structure at 550 degrees centigrade should still be able bear it's maximum rated load.

Now the question still remains...how hot did the fires at the WTC get, and how much did that weaken the steel? It's not as simple as saying "The fires weren't hot enough to cause a collapse", but it's also not as simple as saying "The fires were hot enough to weaken the steel...enough for it to collapse". Unfortunately it seems much of these questions are still being debated and remain unanswered.


2. You mention some people who witnessed the plane being shot down. I have run into people who witnessed things that line up with the govt account. One janitor in Washington happened to be on top of his building, and the plane was just 20 feet above his head as it came down into the Pentagon.


You trust a government-employed janitor?? ;) Juuust kidding of course.



But many family members said that they talked to their loved ones who were on the plane (Flight 93). Does anyone really think that they'd go along with a govt conspiracy?


With enough money, some persuasion, and a little coersion, you can get just about anyone to keep their mouths shut. I'm not saying that is the case, but that's it's a slight possibility.

Looks like the terrorists did their homework. They knew exactly where to hit the building to cause the most damage.

Either that or both were EXTREMELY (in a bad sense though) lucky.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

Either that or both were EXTREMELY (in a bad sense though) lucky.

-washboard

One of them might've been lucky, but not both.

[middletree]

Saying "it gets weak around 500 degrees" is a very general statement.

My statement wasn't meant to be specific. I appreciate your specifics, though. I learned from what you posted.

My intention was to make it clear that the points which were presented by the conspiracists as undisputed fact are anything but. I happened to choose the steel melt temperature, but could have singled out many other items in the list E's original posts.

Unfortunately it seems much of these questions are still being debated and remain unanswered.


And that's exactly my point.


You trust a government-employed janitor?? ;) Juuust kidding of course.
Again, I just pulled out one example of which I happened to be aware, in order to illustrate that these people only listen to witnesses who back up what they already want to believe.

With enough money, some persuasion, and a little coersion, you can get just about anyone to keep their mouths shut. I'm not saying that is the case, but that's it's a slight possibility.

I seriously, seriously doubt that it's even a possibility. These people were married to Flight 93 victims. I am married. No amount of money or govt threats could ever convince me to make up stories about talking to my wife just before she died.

[mat1583]

My statement wasn't meant to be specific. I appreciate your specifics, though. I learned from what you posted.

My intention was to make it clear that the points which were presented by the conspiracists as undisputed fact are anything but. I happened to choose the steel melt temperature, but could have singled out many other items in the list E's original posts.



And that's exactly my point.



I'm glad you learned some from it. That's one reason I posted. I don't believe everything I hear from the government, but I'm not going to believe everything I hear from all the conspiracy theories either. I am a reasoning man and try to use everything I have learned to figure out things for myself. i guess maybe it's the engineer in me or something like that.



Again, I just pulled out one example of which I happened to be aware, in order to illustrate that these people only listen to witnesses who back up what they already want to believe.

I know :) 'twas just a jest.


I seriously, seriously doubt that it's even a possibility. These people were married to Flight 93 victims. I am married. No amount of money or govt threats could ever convince me to make up stories about talking to my wife just before she died.

(Mark 14)
27 And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away, because it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED.'

28"But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee."

29 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away, yet I will not."

30 And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times."

31 But Peter kept saying insistently, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!" And they all were saying the same thing also.

-washboard

[Evanescence]

Good to have you here Tree,

The instance of the plane being shot down was Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA. I find this theory to be VERY pausable as if the Govt thought it was heading BACK to DC, then it would have to be shot down. I would stand behind this move as it would be in the best interest of the nation.

As for the heat melting the steel. There are TONS of variables one way or another with that. How much damage did the impact make? How hot did it get? etc etc.

if this were to be pulled off, it would have been a massive undertaking and would be one of the greatest scams and secret operations ever conceived. The reason being that SO many people would have to be silenced or in on it or kept quiet somehow.

These guys claim a different style plane....a much larger one struck the 2nd tower. So, there would have had to been a switch. Where did those people go?

An unmanned remote controlled plane could have done this, but again, where would all those people on the planes go? The Govt would have had to force them down and killed everyone.....making it look like they were in the planes that struck the towers. Highly unlikely.

Here's a theory that makes more sense:

The Govt posed as Al Queda leaders or operatives and convinced the martyrs to carry out the plans. In reality it was set up by the US Govt. They would have allowed the plans to unfold, opening doors and truning a blind eye. This would have had to have been done by the CIA or a group deep in the Pentagon. Highly unlikely, but a better theory than getting rid of hundreds of people by switching planes....

Then again, maybe Elvis was invloved, after all, he is STILL alive and is the King...

Thank you, thank you very much....:cool:

[Evanescence]

I'm glad you learned some from it. That's one reason I posted. I don't believe everything I hear from the government, but I'm not going to believe everything I hear from all the conspiracy theories either. I am a reasoning man and try to use everything I have learned to figure out things for myself. i guess maybe it's the engineer in me or something like that.


I know :) 'twas just a jest.



(Mark 14)
27 And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away, because it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED.'

28"But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee."

29 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away, yet I will not."

30 And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times."

31 But Peter kept saying insistently, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!" And they all were saying the same thing also.

-washboard

An interesting point.

The Govt could have somehow admitted something wrong happened....candy coat it, and then paid off the families. If you had just a few of the family members, it could be possible. I wonder if any of the family members mysteriously dissapeared?

I think that they'd be smarter than that and would have had the bases covered. There wouldnt need to be a payoff, because we'd all believe the Govt. Most of us...:D

[middletree]

(Mark 14)


That, my friend, is what's known as a stretch. Too stretchy. Sorry, but I don't buy into it.

And to E:
Why would the govt pose as terrorist leaders to get those 19 idiots to fly the planes into the towers. I mean, what's the point? What's in it for the govt?

[mat1583]

That, my friend, is what's known as a stretch. Too stretchy. Sorry, but I don't but into it.


You believe it's a stretch, but I do not. If Peter, "The rock" could deny Jesus 3 times, I think it's a possibility that you could be convinced to lie about your own spouse.

Here's the reasoning:
1)It's a matter of national security. If other countries or our nation finds out that we did indeed shot down the plane, it will weaken or image in the eyes of the terrorists and other enemies of the United States. By leaking that information, you could bring on other attacks because the enemies will be emboldened by our weakness.

2)At least by claiming such a heroic story your spouse or family member will be remembered forever as a hero instead of forever as a casualty or "collateral damage". Which would you rather have them remembered as?

3)Your family member became a heroic sacrifice for this nation. The terrorists had full control of the plane, and unfortunately the upper hand. Had we not shot down the plane, it could have destroyed thousands more lives. Unfortunately it was a very tough decision to make, but think of it as a heroic sacrifice for our nation, equal or greater than that of our current service men and women.

4)You will receive every amount of compensation possible for your compliance with our requests to uphold national security and for your extremely regrettable loss. We understand that no amount of money or compensation could replace the life so suddenly taken from your life, but be proud of that sacrifice they made for our nation and for the world.

I would also like to hope I wouldn't be convinced by any of the above or any other reasoning to hide the truth about what happened to that plane...but I don't believe any of us could say for sure what we would do until we were put into that situation. If you had been in Peter's shoes, could you say 100% that you wouldn't have denied Christ? None of us could really know for sure unless put in that exact situation.

-washboard

[Evanescence]

You believe it's a stretch, but I do not. If Peter, "The rock" could deny Jesus 3 times, I think it's a possibility that you could be convinced to lie about your own spouse.

Here's the reasoning:
1)It's a matter of national security. If other countries or our nation finds out that we did indeed shot down the plane, it will weaken or image in the eyes of the terrorists and other enemies of the United States. By leaking that information, you could bring on other attacks because the enemies will be emboldened by our weakness.

2)At least by claiming such a heroic story your spouse or family member will be remembered forever as a hero instead of forever as a casualty or "collateral damage". Which would you rather have them remembered as?

3)Your family member became a heroic sacrifice for this nation. The terrorists had full control of the plane, and unfortunately the upper hand. Had we not shot down the plane, it could have destroyed thousands more lives. Unfortunately it was a very tough decision to make, but think of it as a heroic sacrifice for our nation, equal or greater than that of our current service men and women.

4)You will receive every amount of compensation possible for your compliance with our requests to uphold national security and for your extremely regrettable loss. We understand that no amount of money or compensation could replace the life so suddenly taken from your life, but be proud of that sacrifice they made for our nation and for the world.

I would also like to hope I wouldn't be convinced by any of the above or any other reasoning to hide the truth about what happened to that plane...but I don't believe any of us could say for sure what we would do until we were put into that situation. If you had been in Peter's shoes, could you say 100% that you wouldn't have denied Christ? None of us could really know for sure unless put in that exact situation.

-washboard

All valid points and the passage you showed is NOT far fetched at all. People deny and sell out all the time. They've done it for far worse and far less things...

The trouble is the LARGE amount of folks involved. Keeping a secret with 10 people is one thing. With 100 is another.

And to E:
Why would the govt pose as terrorist leaders to get those 19 idiots to fly the planes into the towers. I mean, what's the point? What's in it for the govt?

All sorts of things. We don't know the internal workings of the Govt or the world. It could be anything from an excuse to invade Iraq, to conquering the Middle East to creating a police state here in the USA to trying to conquer the world. The truth is, our Govt is run by politicians with money as their primary interest. Whether you think someone is a Christian or not is irrelevant. Politics on any level...especially the FEDERAL level is a haven for the corrupt.

These politicians are constantly being caught redhanded with conflicts of interest and all sorts of money related tomfoolery. They have special interests with the lobbists and know exactly how to manipulate the system to make a buck...BIG bucks to be honest. They ALL protect big business...big money. From Oil to wal-mart to the chemical companies....special interest and corrupt lobbying runs rampant. Its in all levels and depts of Govt, from the FDA to the USDA.

So, I ask you, why wouldn't they want to create a false situation in order to furhter their agenda? They're still using 911 as an excuse for whats going on in the Middle East, so if they had that in their plans.....it working.

Just like the TV commercial for one politician said, "Anything to make sure we're OK. Anything to keep us safe,"

As the constitution is being ripped to shreds and his rights are being taken away. The gullible will allow their rights to be stripped and a dictator to rise, all in the name of security. Security so he doesn't have to worry about anything except his 401k, taking his kids to soccor practice and planning his next vacation. He won't be too proud when the worm turns and he's living in a police state or communist nation.

[mat1583]

All valid points and the passage you showed is NOT far fetched at all. People deny and sell out all the time. They've done it for far worse and far less things...

The trouble is the LARGE amount of folks involved. Keeping a secret with 10 people is one thing. With 100 is another.



Is that how many family members were contacted by people on flight 93?

From wiki on Xenu:
"In Scientology doctrine, Xenu (also Xemu) is an alien ruler of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to wreak chaos and havoc today."

If hundreds of thousands of people can be convinced that this is true...it's quite possible that less than 100 people can be convinced by the government that their family members were necessary sacrifices and heroes of our nation.

Once again, I'm saying it's possible, but not that it actually happened. sheesh, I bet I'm being red flagged right now if not already ;)

-washboard

[Musicdude]

Just because someone (Peter) who did not think they could betray Christ, did so anyway, doesn't prove that every person will betray their fellow man for the right price. That is a big leap in logic. None of the other apostles betrayed Christ. Not everyone can be bought. And so many people would've had to have been bought for them to pull something like this off. It's not impossible, but it's very unlikely.

I don't think Middletree was implying that people can't be bought. I think he was implying that the chances of an entire plane full of people (let alone several planes) being able to be bought are pretty slim. And really it was even more people than that. The entire families had to keep it a secret as well. I find that very doubtful.
Would'nt it have been much easier to just strategically place several bombs in those buildings and blow them up and blame it on terrorists. That way there would've been way less witnesses. That would've been much easier to cover up, if that truly was the goal. And like Middletree asked, what's in it for the government? To justify a war? Why would they want to do that? To lower gas prices? That has hardly been the outcome.

[mat1583]

Just because someone (Peter) who did not think they could betray Christ, did so anyway, doesn't prove that every person will betray their fellow man for the right price.



Although this is becoming a seemingly moot point, at least to my knowledge we don't have any accounts of other apostles denying Christ, but that doesn't we can assume that others did not deny Him.

But anyway...
My whole point is that it's not impossible that this happened, and that although we can say in our comfortable positions right now we would not participate in such a lie or deny the truth, we cannot be completely sure unless we are put into that actual position.

-washboard

[middletree]

AMy whole point is that it's not impossible that this happened, and that although we can say in our comfortable positions right now we would not participate in such a lie or deny the truth, we cannot be completely sure unless we are put into that actual position.


But we can say that the chances of that many people going along with the govt conspiracy, because of bribes or coercion, is so small as to be a ridiculous thing to claim. The chances of all those people who claimed to have had phone conversations with Flight 93 passengers, being willing to lie afterward, to write books and go on talk shows afterward, is small enough to say that a rational, reasonable person, wouldn't believe such a thing would happen.

The ones who make up this stuff, then defend it by saying "well, it could happen" are the same ones who see a conspiracy in the picture that is visible by the folding of the $20 bill in a particular manner.

While it's technically possible, it's not a rational position to take.

[meak]

i recommend everyone watch loose change: second edition (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=loose+change&hl=en). i know some will refuse to look at it or be very quick to judge against it, but it is very informative. it just lays out facts. my personal opinion is that the government did it. it's 121 min. long, but worth it. it addresses all the questions asked. like how it's impossible for a 747 to fit through the hole that was left at the pentagon. how when a plane crashes in a field it shouldn't look like a neat pile of metal laying on the ground (like flight 93), but should have debis scattered all over the field. how the success rate of making a call from a cell phone at 32,000 feet is a .006% chance. how it's not possible for them to get that many explosives into a burning building for demolition, but the explosives had to have been in the building prior to 9/11. it gives examples of buildings burning from the 40's-70's that burned for several hours and covered a span of several floors and still the firemen were able to put the flames out without the building collapsing. the empire state building was hit by a plane in the 40's and burned and burned, but never went down. one building built in 73 burned for 19 hours and it didn't collaspe and they got the fire out. i'm not kidding, everyone should watch this documentary. don't be the "i bleed red, white and blue" american that is skeptical of anything opposing your beliefs. have an open mind and watch it, you'll learn something. those aren't even the big ones. that's just what i can think of off the top of my head.

But we can say that the chances of that many people going along with the govt conspiracy, because of bribes or coercion, is so small as to be a ridiculous thing to claim. The chances of all those people who claimed to have had phone conversations with Flight 93 passengers, being willing to lie afterward, to write books and go on talk shows afterward, is small enough to say that a rational, reasonable person, wouldn't believe such a thing would happen.

The ones who make up this stuff, then defend it by saying "well, it could happen" are the same ones who see a conspiracy in the picture that is visible by the folding of the $20 bill in a particular manner.

While it's technically possible, it's not a rational position to take.
it addresses this statement as well, about how the phone calls were made. seriously, everyone should watch it.

[mat1583]

But we can say that the chances of that many people going along with the govt conspiracy, because of bribes or coercion, is so small as to be a ridiculous thing to claim. The chances of all those people who claimed to have had phone conversations with Flight 93 passengers, being willing to lie afterward, to write books and go on talk shows afterward, is small enough to say that a rational, reasonable person, wouldn't believe such a thing would happen.

The ones who make up this stuff, then defend it by saying "well, it could happen" are the same ones who see a conspiracy in the picture that is visible by the folding of the $20 bill in a particular manner.

While it's technically possible, it's not a rational position to take.

How much study have you done in psychology if any?

-washboard

[middletree]

How much study have you done in psychology if any?

-washboard
I took a few classes when training to be a schoolteacher. But that's beside the point. It's not just about whether someone's wife is lying about talking to her husband just before he said "Let's Roll". It's the entirety of the whole accusation that makes this whole conversation ridiculous. The things that we'd have to believe in order to buy into the idea that the govt did this are too numerous for a rational person to come to that conclusion.

[Evanescence]

i recommend everyone watch loose change: second edition (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848835726&q=loose+change&hl=en). i know some will refuse to look at it or be very quick to judge against it, but it is very informative. it just lays out facts. my personal opinion is that the government did it. it's 121 min. long, but worth it. it addresses all the questions asked. like how it's impossible for a 747 to fit through the hole that was left at the pentagon. how when a plane crashes in a field it shouldn't look like a neat pile of metal laying on the ground (like flight 93), but should have debis scattered all over the field. how the success rate of making a call from a cell phone at 32,000 feet is a .006% chance. how it's not possible for them to get that many explosives into a burning building for demolition, but the explosives had to have been in the building prior to 9/11. it gives examples of buildings burning from the 40's-70's that burned for several hours and covered a span of several floors and still the firemen were able to put the flames out without the building collapsing. the empire state building was hit by a plane in the 40's and burned and burned, but never went down. one building built in 73 burned for 19 hours and it didn't collaspe and they got the fire out. i'm not kidding, everyone should watch this documentary. don't be the "i bleed red, white and blue" american that is skeptical of anything opposing your beliefs. have an open mind and watch it, you'll learn something. those aren't even the big ones. that's just what i can think of off the top of my head.


it addresses this statement as well, about how the phone calls were made. seriously, everyone should watch it.

Interesting. I'm open to all possibilities and will check it out....

The plot thickens....:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Howlin' Wolf]

I took a few classes when training to be a schoolteacher. But that's beside the point. It's not just about whether someone's wife is lying about talking to her husband just before he said "Let's Roll". It's the entirety of the whole accusation that makes this whole conversation ridiculous. The things that we'd have to believe in order to buy into the idea that the govt did this are too numerous for a rational person to come to that conclusion.

exactly. the only people that believe this nonsense have an agenda against this government, just as the "scientists" that started these claims. what they dont account for, for one, is that deisel fuel is a hellofalot hotter than regular fire. its no comparison. so meak's post about other buildings being on fire is no comparison.

[meak]

exactly. the only people that believe this nonsense have an agenda against this government, just as the "scientists" that started these claims. what they dont account for, for one, is that deisel fuel is a hellofalot hotter than regular fire. its no comparison. so meak's post about other buildings being on fire is no comparison.

actually, i thought i put this in my post, but i guess i didn't, the empire state building was hit by a plane and burned and nothing ever happened. the two towers and building 7 (i believe) are the only three buildings to collapse due to fire. just watch the film before trying to refute what it says. :rolleyes:

[mat1583]

I took a few classes when training to be a schoolteacher. But that's beside the point. It's not just about whether someone's wife is lying about talking to her husband just before he said "Let's Roll". It's the entirety of the whole accusation that makes this whole conversation ridiculous. The things that we'd have to believe in order to buy into the idea that the govt did this are too numerous for a rational person to come to that conclusion.

You are waaaay too quick to put so much trust in our government...it's sad. Here, this may surprise you a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

"Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a 1962 plan to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro as part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative. The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state sponsored terrorism (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil. The plan was proposed by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders, including the highest ranking member of the U.S. military, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Lyman Louis Lemnitzer."

or..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

"COINTELPRO (Counter Intelligence Program) is a program of the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States. Although covert operations have been employed throughout FBI history, the formal COINTELPRO operations of 1956-1971 were broadly targeted against organizations that were (at the time) considered to have politically radical elements, ranging from those whose stated goal was the violent overthrow of the U.S. government (such as the Weathermen) to non-violent civil rights groups such as Martin Luther King Jr.'s Southern Christian Leadership Conference to violent racist and segregationist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party. The founding document of COINTELPRO directed FBI agents to "expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize" the activities of these dissident movements and their leaders."

or...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

"On the Senate floor, Senator Ted Kennedy said:

"The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over 30 universities and institutions were involved in an 'extensive testing and experimentation' program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens 'at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign.' Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to 'unwitting subjects in social situations.' At least one death, that of Dr. Olson, resulted from these activities. The Agency itself acknowledged that these tests made little scientific sense. The agents doing the monitoring were not qualified scientific observers."[4] "

If you had heard ANY of these as accusations against our government before they became fact and news, would you have thought any rational person would have believed in these theories? (Especially operation Northwoods)

-washboard

[meak]

exactly. the only people that believe this nonsense have an agenda against this government, just as the "scientists" that started these claims. what they dont account for, for one, is that deisel fuel is a hellofalot hotter than regular fire. its no comparison. so meak's post about other buildings being on fire is no comparison.
one more thing, gasoline evaporates at a certain temp. i'm not going to throw the number around, but i do know that gasoline evaporates at a lower temp than it would take to melt the steel in the two towers so the gasoline could not have been the cause of melting any steel in those buildings. and besides, if a building can burn for 19 hours and not collapse (gasoline enduced or not) surely the twin towers could have held out longer than 19 minutes. that's record time....you should watch the film if you haven't.

[middletree]

You are waaaay too quick to put so much trust in our government.
It's not a matter of trusting the govt, actually. The facts, along with common sense, line up more with the idea that 19 misguided, hate-filled, possibly possessed persons, probably with help and training from Al-Qaeda, put together a plan like this, and our laxed airport security made it possible for them to carry out said plans. This has nothing to do with whether or not our govt has shadowy things going on, or has done so in the past.

I find it interesting that you cite Wiki as a source, though. That's about as unreliable as it gets.

Which reminds me of this:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50902

[middletree]

...you should watch the film if you haven't.

It sounds too much like something Michael Moore would come up with. I'm out.

[meak]

It sounds too much like something Michael Moore would come up with. I'm out.
yeah, i figured you'd make that response. i don't like michael moore and i didn't finish watching his movie because it was propaganda. this documentary, however, is not propaganda. but you'll never find that out because you are acting like that "i bleed red, white and blue and i'm not gonna listen to anything against our country because that's unpatriotic" point of view. fact: they have located 11 of the 19 men that "supposedly" hijacked the flights and flew them into the towers. they are all overseas working jobs. crazy, i know. it's still fact, though. again, make an educated decision...in order to do that you should look at both sides in an unbiased view. before i saw the film i never thought there was a conspiracy, but i watched the film with an open mind. if you're capable of that, you really should watch it, but who am i kidding? i know you won't.

[middletree]

Well, you're entitled to make judgments about me if you like; no skin off my nose. But for the record, I'm not anywhere near as blindly patriotic as you think. On the flip side, however, I don't think that those who buy into the conspiracies are as as open-minded as you are asking me to be. Tulip said it best: the ones who want to believe that Bush (or someone controlling him) orchestrated these attacks are believing things that lined up with what they already thought. I predict that nobody who reads this thread will change their mind about this.

[Evanescence]

Well, the plot surely does thicken....:)

Well first off, I DO find it suspect that the towers collapsed as quick as they did. I always though that was soemthing out of the ordinary.

As for the Empire State Building, I think you'll find that was a small plane with not near the amount of imapct. Not the same.

I think almost any documentary is worth looking at but only with an unbiased, open mind. I think most here aren't fond of the Govt but as tree said, it defies logic.....but like I said, it would be possible....

Mat showed some damaging evidence about our country. There was a SERIOUS shift somewhere in our Govt in the mid 50's or early 60's and clearly corruption and villany crept in. If we could not trust our Govt THEN, how can we trust them NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????? ???????????????????

[mat1583]

It's not a matter of trusting the govt, actually. The facts, along with common sense, line up more with the idea that 19 misguided, hate-filled, possibly possessed persons, probably with help and training from Al-Qaeda, put together a plan like this, and our laxed airport security made it possible for them to carry out said plans. This has nothing to do with whether or not our govt has shadowy things going on, or has done so in the past.


whoa whoa whoa. I never said the planes weren't hijacked, and I wasn't arguing that they weren't. I am saying that it's possible that flight 93 was shot down by our own government and that the heroic stories could have been falsified...and somehow you got to the above. I never went that far.


I find it interesting that you cite Wiki as a source, though. That's about as unreliable as it gets.


If it's so unreliable, then go ahead and try to discredit OFFICIAL DECLASSIFIED GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS, NEWS COVERAGE and KNOWN FACT. :rolleyes: I could have pulled all the information directly from the sources if you wanted me to. Wiki provided a quick summary. But check out the resources yourself if you're still skeptikal. It's all there.

-washboard

[meak]

Well, you're entitled to make judgments about me if you like; no skin off my nose. But for the record, I'm not anywhere near as blindly patriotic as you think. On the flip side, however, I don't think that those who buy into the conspiracies are as as open-minded as you are asking me to be. Tulip said it best: the ones who want to believe that Bush (or someone controlling him) orchestrated these attacks are believing things that lined up with what they already thought. I predict that nobody who reads this thread will change their mind about this.
first, i wasn't saying you were "blindly patriotic" i was saying your response reaked of it. the fact you flat out labeled it in the same genre as a michael moore film proves it. how can you not know anything about something, but so easily judge it? actually, i never believed in those conspiracies before this documentary. so your assumptions would be wrong. i voted for bush and supported him in everything. it's just funny some can so easily dismiss something because it goes against their point of view. and the fact you won't look at is, in itself, close-minded. that's all.:rolleyes:

[middletree]

Wow. Two posts in a row addressed to me, and both include the rolling eyes: :rolleyes:

Thanks, guys.:rolleyes: :cool: :p ;) :D :)


Washboard:
I guess my post, while clearly was a reply to you, really showed my thoughts about all conspiracists and various thoughts posted in this thread. I didn't mean to imply that you had said that the hijacks didn't happen, but I sure see how my post looked that way.

Meak:
I admit I came into this discussion with a bit of a bias, but here's the deal: we all do. At any rate, I think my posts have been consistent in saying that it's not about defending Bush or the govt (I happen to disagree with Bush on many crucial topics, and have voted Democrat many times), but was really about saying that the allegations presented by the conspiracists don't line up well at all. I stand by that.

I didn't watch the video because I don't have 2 hours to spare. Also, beause what you have described is things I have seen, in bit and pieces, for years. For example, someone here mentioned the explosion that you can supposedly see in a video clip right before the 2nd plane hits. I have seen the video, and don't see any such thing. It just isn't there. The arguments about the Pentagon attack not being a plane are not convincing, either.

[meak]

Meak:I admit I came into this discussion with a bit of a bias, but here's the deal: we all do.
but the difference is when presented with other options to keep an open mind and give it a look and not to judge it until you've seen it.


At any rate, I think my posts have been consistent in saying that it's not about defending Bush or the govt (I happen to disagree with Bush on many crucial topics, and have voted Democrat many times), but was really about saying that the allegations presented by the conspiracists don't line up well at all. I stand by that.
okay, it wasn't fair of me to lump you into that catagory because i really wasn't assuming you were "that guy", but that is always the response you get from the "conservative christian" in america, without ever giving it a chance. and i agree, i've read some conspiracy stuff that i thought was a big stretch and i don't feel this doc. is that way.


I didn't watch the video because I don't have 2 hours to spare. Also, beause what you have described is things I have seen, in bit and pieces, for years. For example, someone here mentioned the explosion that you can supposedly see in a video clip right before the 2nd plane hits. I have seen the video, and don't see any such thing. It just isn't there. The arguments about the Pentagon attack not being a plane are not convincing, either.
i'm not saying you have to watch it today, but at some point in your life you have 2 hours to spare and it's worth a look. now, i only described things off the top of my head. about the explosions i watched the video and i saw them(they had things magnified and you can clearly see it), plus there are interviews with firemen where they talk about the explosions. there's even this tourist footage where they're talking with the firemen on 9/11 and they're describing the explosions they heard from inside the building. it's not just poorly strung together rumors. there are a lot of hard facts in this film. and again, i watched this movie and i was ready to dismiss it as "crazy conspiracy theories", but once i started watching i couldn't stop and it changed my mind. i'm telling you, this documentary is not like a michael moore film. i'd be the first to say it if it was. all i'm asking is before you dismiss information someone is putting out there is to check out the source for yourself and then you can judge it. by check out the source i obviously mean watch the film.

[Valpo]

this is a joke that it even needs to be discussed, all conspiracy theorists should get a life, it is embarassing to say that 9/11 was an inside job, it goes beyond all reasonable logic, and logic of any kind for that matter....I love the displaced idiots who say "Well a 747 couldnt have hit the Pentagon, because of this and that" Ok moron, tell that to the families of the people who never came home or got to their destination that day on some mysterious plane, I guess to cover up the inside job the govt did away with some random plane...also what sense does it make for the govt to attack the very symbol of capitalism and economic power/freedom?? To what? plunge this country into a recession and have to rebuild spending billions and billions of dollars?? And what's more what govt that supposedly "wants to start a war" would freaken attack their own military headquarters?! this is just as tulip said asinine, and I find it completely disgusting and irresponsible that there is even a thread on this

[mat1583]

Wow. Two posts in a row addressed to me, and both include the rolling eyes: :rolleyes:

Thanks, guys.:rolleyes: :cool: :p ;) :D :)


Washboard:
I guess my post, while clearly was a reply to you, really showed my thoughts about all conspiracists and various thoughts posted in this thread. I didn't mean to imply that you had said that the hijacks didn't happen, but I sure see how my post looked that way.


lol. Why do the rolley eye emoticons always get the short end of the stick? :)

I understand what you're saying now, and it makes sense and I agree. Most conspiracy theories do seem pretty nuts. And I didn't mean for my post to seem angry or anything. Sometimes I just capitalize things to emphasize a point. I promise I wasn't yelling! <--that's not yelling either, just exclaiming ;)

Valpro: Go back to page 3. Read my post about the Operation Northwoods, and the other two 'conspiracies', then tell me if you would have believed any of those conspiracy theories if someone had told you about them...theories that all turned out to be admittedly true by our government. Here, I'll even post an exerpt:


"Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a 1962 plan to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro as part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative. The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state sponsored terrorism (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil.

Is it not the least bit frightening to you that at one time they even proposed and considered carrying out state sponsored terrorism to garner support for the invasion of Cuba??

Or what if I had come up to you and said, "Dude...i have something to tell you. I KNOW the government is carrying out secretive drug tests on unaware citizens. They're using people as guinea pigs for their experiments with LSD!! They even killed a professor with their drug experiments and are trying to cover it up man. " You would have thought I was a looney until the actual documentation was declassified and revealed.

-washboard

[coldcupofjoe]

Theres this car that runs on water

[middletree]

lol. Why do the rolley eye emoticons always get the short end of the stick? :)


BTW, if you get a chance, check out that Onion article about Wiki. Pretty funny.

[Valpo]

mat...no, i cant believe educated people such as those here would buy into this complete and utter crap, and dont get all "well fine leave the thread on me" or any other condescending attacks about how im a Bush lover or conservative Christian, 9/11 was a planned out attack by Islamo-facists, terrorists, al-qaeda, whatever u wanna call them because of America's economic power, freedom, and friendship of Israel, it is not and will NEVER BE a govt sponsored attack, we have a free govt, we have a free press, I have a feeling the press would have figured this out, and wait heres the "Our press only responds to and does what the govt tells them to do" response from you! no again, no no no no no, i dont know how else to say it, if 9/11 was an inside job and no credible news source cites it as such then we're in a supressive state and under and oppressive government which is equal to that of Stalin's Russia, are you prepared to agree with such an idiotic statement?

[mat1583]

BTW, if you get a chance, check out that Onion article about Wiki. Pretty funny.

Yeah, I did yesterday :) I got a good laugh out of it. I always get a good laugh out of the Onion!

-washboard

[mat1583]

mat...no, i cant believe educated people such as those here would buy into this complete and utter crap, and dont get all "well fine leave the thread on me" or any other condescending attacks about how im a Bush lover or conservative Christian, 9/11 was a planned out attack by Islamo-facists, terrorists, al-qaeda, whatever u wanna call them because of America's economic power, freedom, and friendship of Israel, it is not and will NEVER BE a govt sponsored attack, we have a free govt, we have a free press, I have a feeling the press would have figured this out, and wait heres the "Our press only responds to and does what the govt tells them to do" response from you! no again, no no no no no, i dont know how else to say it, if 9/11 was an inside job and no credible news source cites it as such then we're in a supressive state and under and oppressive government which is equal to that of Stalin's Russia, are you prepared to agree with such an idiotic statement?

It doesn't seem that you are reading any bit of what I'm saying in any of my posts. As I told middletree, I am not saying that our government setup 911 and carried it out. Perhaps I should start a seperate thread. I was JUST talking about flight 93 and the possibilities that our government shot the plane down. I'm not saying that our own government carried out state sponsored attacks to start the war. I'm not debating that point at all. Even middletree knew that. Please re-read my posts for clarification.

And you can keep denying that our government does some shady stuff if you so choose...but in this case I do not believe that ignorance is bliss. The clear-cut evidence is lined up for you (of previous shadiness), yet you deny it. Once again, calling it "idiotic" or "complete and utter crap" does no good for you point or stance except hurt it.

One more question. Why do you think I would start any condescending attacks on you? Is that the character type you get from reading parts of my posts or what? I have tried treating everyone's opinions with respect, including yours Valpro. I provided evidence, reason, and logic, yet I have yet to see any of this from your posts. If anything, calling someone's opinions or insight "idiotic" and "utter crap" is condescending. Trust me, it would do you some good to consider your own advice at length.

-washboard

[meak]

this is a joke that it even needs to be discussed, all conspiracy theorists should get a life, it is embarassing to say that 9/11 was an inside job, it goes beyond all reasonable logic, and logic of any kind for that matter....I love the displaced idiots who say "Well a 747 couldnt have hit the Pentagon, because of this and that" Ok moron, tell that to the families of the people who never came home or got to their destination that day on some mysterious plane, I guess to cover up the inside job the govt did away with some random plane...also what sense does it make for the govt to attack the very symbol of capitalism and economic power/freedom?? To what? plunge this country into a recession and have to rebuild spending billions and billions of dollars?? And what's more what govt that supposedly "wants to start a war" would freaken attack their own military headquarters?! this is just as tulip said asinine, and I find it completely disgusting and irresponsible that there is even a thread on this
ahahahahahaha. bravo, bravo.

[Evanescence]

Gentlemen please, we're all Americans here...:cool:

Valpo, I understand your frusteration and I too have/had some reservations when I heard these stories a few years ago. Truth is, you may have more faith in evil than you should. I have ZERO faith in the US Govt. Period.

Lets not let this turn into a Bush-bash. No one is saying he did it...after all it was probably Cheney...:D

No seriously, its not about political parties or bashing the Pres or VP, its about the deep internal workings of the US Govt. The crooks in Congress and the House, the war mongers at the Pentagon and the spies in the FBI, NSA and CIA. Not to mention the secret organizations we don't even know of.

Lets all be real. Could it be possible? YES! Absolutely, given the failure of this Govt. BUT, what is the likelihood? Slim.

If you can honestly say you trust the Govt, then this theory is not your cup of tea. But, if you even have the slightest incline that our Govt is corrupt, then you should be open to any and all possibilities. I'm certainly not convinced, even given some of the damaging info provided, but I am open to the very real possibility.

Evil creeps in my friends.....trust no one!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Howlin' Wolf]

Gentlemen please, we're all Americans here...:cool:

Valpo, I understand your frusteration and I too have/had some reservations when I heard these stories a few years ago. Truth is, you may have more faith in evil than you should. I have ZERO faith in the US Govt. Period.

Lets not let this turn into a Bush-bash. No one is saying he did it...after all it was probably Cheney...:D

No seriously, its not about political parties or bashing the Pres or VP, its about the deep internal workings of the US Govt. The crooks in Congress and the House, the war mongers at the Pentagon and the spies in the FBI, NSA and CIA. Not to mention the secret organizations we don't even know of.

Lets all be real. Could it be possible? YES! Absolutely, given the failure of this Govt. BUT, what is the likelihood? Slim.

If you can honestly say you trust the Govt, then this theory is not your cup of tea. But, if you even have the slightest incline that our Govt is corrupt, then you should be open to any and all possibilities. I'm certainly not convinced, even given some of the damaging info provided, but I am open to the very real possibility.

Evil creeps in my friends.....trust no one!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

i dont trust our government, but these conspiracies reak of leftist propaganda

[Evanescence]

i dont trust our government, but these conspiracies reak of leftist propaganda

For once we agree old friend....I sensed that too. Its a shame because if there is even ANY truth to it, it will be overshadowed by the Bush/Rep bashing....

Such a shame....:confused:

[middletree]

"Truth:
Its a matter of who you trust, the terrorists who celebrate 9/11 and would kill you and your family in a moments notice or the United States Government who has provided a life of freedom and prosperity that has been unmatched in history. "

I plagiarized that statement, but it said it perfectly.

I watched quite a bit of the Loose Change video that was referenced earlier, and have to say, it's not very convincing. The narrator will tell you about something that supposedly happened, then show you a quick screen shot of a website, which proves nothing. Anyone could type up something and make it look how they want.

This article put to bed just one of the many "facts" reported in that story (stock options for American and United Airlines the week before 911):

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp

[Evanescence]

I saw a special on A&E saturday night on 9/11.

Of note, many of the calls from the air came from the PLANE'S phones that were onbaord, not cell phones.

The air traffic controlers too, would have to be silenced or in on it. They tracked these planes for quite a while and everything is traceable. There are just too many people to keep quiet in order to pull this off.

The only way would be if the Govt somehow poised as Al Queda or Bin Laden himself and set it up. The attackers would have thought they were doing it for Bin laden or Al Queda but in reality were doing it for the the US, with all kinds of open doors and loopholes allowing it to happen. The entire conspiracy is highly suspect and full of holes.

[Evanescence]

"Truth:
Its a matter of who you trust, the terrorists who celebrate 9/11 and would kill you and your family in a moments notice or the United States Government who has provided a life of freedom and prosperity that has been unmatched in history. "

I plagiarized that statement, but it said it perfectly.

I watched quite a bit of the Loose Change video that was referenced earlier, and have to say, it's not very convincing. The narrator will tell you about something that supposedly happened, then show you a quick screen shot of a website, which proves nothing. Anyone could type up something and make it look how they want.

This article put to bed just one of the many "facts" reported in that story (stock options for American and United Airlines the week before 911):

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp

Tree, that link was pretty useless.... :rolleyes::(

It basically explained the urban legend, then said the Govt concluded it was coincidence.....

Hello? Since when do we trust/believe the Govt when it investigates itself? :confused:

This legend is VERY possible as is the possiblity of others knowing about it.

[HotWireD]

I am in two minds at the moment - I have read lots of the conspiracy and anti-conspiracy sites and they all appear convincing (both sides!)

Two points (not 9/11, but the bombings in London on 7/7 and the arrests made last week in the UK) that have got me thinking are...

1/ Comments that "wasn't it a coincidence that there were antiterrorist operations going on in London on the same day" (meaning that is was not a coincidence...) - well, there are thousands of companies in London who care for the welfare of their staff and employ people to put their minds at rest by training them on what they should do in the case of an attack (which is sensible) so on average, there must be at least one company being trained on any working day. So no 'coincidence' in my view.

2/ After the recent arrests most newspapers and news programs were stating 'alleged' all the time 'alleged conspiracy', 'alleged terrorist attacks' etc. Reports stated that the majority of people were sceptical about whether the arrests were for a genuine plot or just fear mongering on the part of the security services and government. Then it comes out that several of the suspects had produced 'suicide videos'. Sounds like they were genuinely planning on killing themselves to me.

It appears to me that people WANT to believe these attacks to be a conspiracy by the government, the alternative may be just too terrible to contemplate - that there ARE people out there who REALLY want to kill innocent people, ie the public, which is me and you and our families and friends.

[mcgreen311]

Tree, that link was pretty useless.... :rolleyes::(

It basically explained the urban legend, then said the Govt concluded it was coincidence.....

Hello? Since when do we trust/believe the Govt when it investigates itself? :confused:

This legend is VERY possible as is the possiblity of others knowing about it.

*Gasp* You question the all-powerful snopes?:)

[Evanescence]

UPDATE,

Today on a VERY non-biased talk radio show in Baltimore, MD, the head dude for Scholars for 911 truth was on the show. I only caught parts of it...

His thinking is this...

1. The Govt and/or Bush/Cheney perpetrated the 911 attacks for several reasons. One major one, Westernizing The Middle East.

Given the excuse to invade Afganistan and Iraq, we get the oil and set up shop. Supposedly there IS a pipeline being built...or is built to get oil from Iraq to Afgan. regardless, if we Westernize Iraq and Afganistan, we can get our industries there and Americans will feel comfortable gioing there and working etc etc.

2. To push the Patriot Act. I found this alarming when it happened. It was pushed thru so easy and opens the door for more Bog brother, owellian activities...

3. make the country secure in the Govt. People are now dependent on the Govt to keep them safe and will give up their liberties to be safe and secure...

Now, again, I'm not convinced but he has some VERY damaging evidence. Is it possible our Govt did it? Yes! Very possible? YES. Am I convinced? No. There needs to be more proof...solid proof.

Lastly, keep this in mind you scoffers...

When Nazi Germany fell, many Germans didn't believe Hitler committed the atrocities he did. They didn't believe the Nazi's did as some claimed. They soon chnaged their minds when the films came out. but even then, some scoffed. They loved their furor.

AND...
Remember what the bible says...

"In the end times, right will become wrong and wrong will become right,"

And i say..."In the end times, truth and error shall pass as one..."

God bless you all and God bless america!!! :)

[Howlin' Wolf]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060908/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_video

THREAD STOPPER!

[Evanescence]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060908/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_video

THREAD STOPPER!

Nothing there but fluff....:confused: :( :confused:

[mat1583]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060908/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_video

THREAD STOPPER!

Somehow I feel this won't be a thread stopper. I mean, that guy (whoever he is) apparently didn't care about the first 2-3 videos they released that showed them training for the attacks.

-washboard

[Howlin' Wolf]

Nothing there but fluff....:confused: :( :confused:

look at your argument.

1. The Govt and/or Bush/Cheney perpetrated the 911 attacks for several reasons. One major one, Westernizing The Middle East.

have you watched al-jazeera?? i speak arabic. i lived in the middle east at the start of the iraqi war. al-jazeera does not like our government and would not be part of your "conspiracy" to westernize the middle east. yet THEY ARE THE ONES THAT AIRED THE VIDEO!! clearly, they, who hate our government more than any of these idiot conspiracy theorists, arent buying the conspiracy theory

[When Nazi Germany fell, many Germans didn't believe Hitler committed the atrocities he did. They didn't believe the Nazi's did as some claimed. They soon chnaged their minds when the films came out. but even then, some scoffed. They loved their furor.

i'm no fan of the government at all, but to compare them to nazi germany is just absurd. incompetent? yes. but that doesnt make them nazis. americans are too skeptical and 9/11 was too big to say that the government did it. all this "Damaging" evidence is all circumstantial, yet AL-Jazeera airs a video of al-qaeda planning the attacks! that is not circumstantial because they are not in bed with Bush.

[Valpo]

not too mention the complete stupidness of attacking your own economic symbol of strength and power and military headquarters, just to start a war!

You cannot argue that they are evil in this way and stupid at the same time, they would have to be evil geniuses to pull this off, and you can call them whatever you want but not evil, this generation knows no evil, the comparisons to nazi's are irresponsible at the very least

[Evanescence]

look at your argument.


have you watched al-jazeera?? i speak arabic. i lived in the middle east at the start of the iraqi war. al-jazeera does not like our government and would not be part of your "conspiracy" to westernize the middle east. yet THEY ARE THE ONES THAT AIRED THE VIDEO!! clearly, they, who hate our government more than any of these idiot conspiracy theorists, arent buying the conspiracy theory


i'm no fan of the government at all, but to compare them to nazi germany is just absurd. incompetent? yes. but that doesnt make them nazis. americans are too skeptical and 9/11 was too big to say that the government did it. all this "Damaging" evidence is all circumstantial, yet AL-Jazeera airs a video of al-qaeda planning the attacks! that is not circumstantial because they are not in bed with Bush.

Sorry bro, its not my arguement...but the guy who runs the 911 truth website.

Look the fact is this...

There is no proof that any of us can grasp in our hands that there IS a conspiracy OR that the terrorists did it. The fact is that planes crashed, towers fell and people died. Thats all we can prove.

All the heresay on BOTH sides is from the media...which could be programmed and/or lied to and these conspiracy theorists who can manipulate and/or sway peoples thinkings to sell books/vids.

I said it before, its VERY possible and I'm VERY open to that possibility, but I need hard proof. Not theories around heresay....

[mat1583]

there's a pretty cool video on cnn.com right now about the Pentagon conspiracy theories. It shows how a computer animator has recreated the crash and it explains some of the myths.

-washboard

[HotWireD]

there's a pretty cool video on cnn.com right now about the Pentagon conspiracy theories. It shows how a computer animator has recreated the crash and it explains some of the myths.

-washboard
Have you got the link?

The CNN site is rather cluttered and I could not find it.

Cheers, David

[Evanescence]

there's a pretty cool video on cnn.com right now about the Pentagon conspiracy theories. It shows how a computer animator has recreated the crash and it explains some of the myths.

-washboard

I think I'm eventually gonna get one of the videos.....Loose Change, i think its called...and maybe one of the books, to look into this further.

I'd like to see the CNN video too. But lets all keep in mind, CNN is like all other news medias. Govt run and programmed. FCC ring a bell?

Sad but true...:(

[Valpo]

I think I'm eventually gonna get one of the videos.....Loose Change, i think its called...and maybe one of the books, to look into this further.

I'd like to see the CNN video too. But lets all keep in mind, CNN is like all other news medias. Govt run and programmed. FCC ring a bell?

Sad but true...:(

how in the hell can you possibly say that CNN is govt run? You live in such a ridiculous world dude, the guys on CNN would be left of center accoridng to politics where as the guys at fox would be right of center, I mean really what kind of a world do you live in? Here's a great article debunking the myth of a 9/11 conspiracy

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

[mat1583]

Have you got the link?

The CNN site is rather cluttered and I could not find it.

Cheers, David

go here: http://www.cnn.com/video/

And then click on the link that says: Pentagon Conspiracy Theories.

I don't really know how to link to it directly. It's all done with javaScript. Right click, copy link location gave me a javascript action.

-washboard

[Evanescence]

how in the hell can you possibly say that CNN is govt run? You live in such a ridiculous world dude, the guys on CNN would be left of center accoridng to politics where as the guys at fox would be right of center, I mean really what kind of a world do you live in? Here's a great article debunking the myth of a 9/11 conspiracy

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

It isn't Govt run like in China....but it is overseen by the Govt, by the FCC. You think stuff isn't screened? You think they don't say..."Sorry that won't fly" for no reason except their own.

Did you hear about the CNN reporters who were fired for doing a report on the stuff thats in our foods? It was on the beef and dairy induistry and hr hormones that are in our meat and dairy items. It exposed the USDA, FDA nd FTC for covering up the facts and studies on the effects of those chemicals. they were intimidated and fired for insubordination. Thats on the tip of the iceberg.

What kind of world do YOU live in? A politicians?

Did you know Bush has 100% direct ties with Clearchannel one of the largest media corporations in the US? Did you know at one time, Bush's close cousin ran Fox news? gee, I wonder why their so RIGHT wing. How about Colin Powels son being the head of the FCC?

Its not a Rep or Dem thing, its everywhere!!!!!!! Wake up!!!!!!!

Face the music, big brother is alive and well. He's watching all of us and programming us through the media. A media that is directly and indirectly run by the Govt.

Gosh, don't be so nieve. Especially when the corrpution is so blatant. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Evanescence]

how in the hell can you possibly say that CNN is govt run? You live in such a ridiculous world dude, the guys on CNN would be left of center accoridng to politics where as the guys at fox would be right of center, I mean really what kind of a world do you live in? Here's a great article debunking the myth of a 9/11 conspiracy

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

Not a bad article. He asked a lot of tough questions and puts the producers of the film under a micro-scope. I think it questions the theory...but certainly dosn't debunk it. It merely asks tough questions of these that have this theory.....questions that any of us would have if we were to investigate it.

These tough questions...like the ones I'd like to ask our top officials, really can't be rpoven or answered in a way that shows any real proof. The feds surley wouldnt let you see classified info and the theorists only have circumstantial and here say evidence. For now, nothing can be proven either way.

**Ducks out back door as black suburbans pull up**

[Valpo]

It isn't Govt run like in China....but it is overseen by the Govt, by the FCC. You think stuff isn't screened? You think they don't say..."Sorry that won't fly" for no reason except their own.

Did you hear about the CNN reporters who were fired for doing a report on the stuff thats in our foods? It was on the beef and dairy induistry and hr hormones that are in our meat and dairy items. It exposed the USDA, FDA nd FTC for covering up the facts and studies on the effects of those chemicals. they were intimidated and fired for insubordination. Thats on the tip of the iceberg.

What kind of world do YOU live in? A politicians?

Did you know Bush has 100% direct ties with Clearchannel one of the largest media corporations in the US? Did you know at one time, Bush's close cousin ran Fox news? gee, I wonder why their so RIGHT wing. How about Colin Powels son being the head of the FCC?

Its not a Rep or Dem thing, its everywhere!!!!!!! Wake up!!!!!!!

Face the music, big brother is alive and well. He's watching all of us and programming us through the media. A media that is directly and indirectly run by the Govt.

Gosh, don't be so nieve. Especially when the corrpution is so blatant. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Im not nieve, whatever that is, and Im certainly not naive, I live in this thing called the REAL WORLD, not some ridiculously skeptical conspiracy world...Gosh I could sit here for days and laugh about how you called cnn government controlled, where do you people sprout up from? Oh I know, asking good tough hard questions and getting to the very bottom of things instead of just foolishly listening to to the propaganda crap the government feeds us, YOU sir need to wake up, I'm wide awake, not dreaming up some goofy conspiracy or even dreaming about its possibility. And this isn't necessarily all towards you Big E but the rest of you conspirators should go flock to Venezuela and Cuba and take Mother Cindy and the rest of the gang with you, Big ol' Papa Fidel and Uncle Hugo will take you skeptics right in.....wait ive solved the 9/11 conspiracy! There was another plane on the grassy knoll!! or perhaps it was a missile on the grassy knoll???

[Evanescence]

Im not nieve, whatever that is, and Im certainly not naive, I live in this thing called the REAL WORLD, not some ridiculously skeptical conspiracy world...Gosh I could sit here for days and laugh about how you called cnn government controlled, where do you people sprout up from? Oh I know, asking good tough hard questions and getting to the very bottom of things instead of just foolishly listening to to the propaganda crap the government feeds us, YOU sir need to wake up, I'm wide awake, not dreaming up some goofy conspiracy or even dreaming about its possibility. And this isn't necessarily all towards you Big E but the rest of you conspirators should go flock to Venezuela and Cuba and take Mother Cindy and the rest of the gang with you, Big ol' Papa Fidel and Uncle Hugo will take you skeptics right in.....wait ive solved the 9/11 conspiracy! There was another plane on the grassy knoll!! or perhaps it was a missile on the grassy knoll???

Back to this...I've been busy and didnt have time to reply..

Yes, its Naive....not nieve. Sorry us writers aren't good with grammeerr...:D

Ok, Valpo, I gues we just have different views of the world and our Govt. But just out of curiousity.....can you help me with some of these questions...

1. Can you honestly say you trust our Govt. I'm not talkibng about Bush, the admin or the Rep party...but ALL branches of our Govt?

2. Does the blantant and obvious issues with lobbying that CAN lead to insider trading and/or conflicts of interest, bother you?

3. I live in PA. Are you aware that our lawmakers voted themsleves a 50% payraise in July, only to have it repealed from a torent of angry voters. Do you think it was right for them to vote themselves payraises to this extent?

4. Do you think you would be allowed to advertise a 3rd party, with a INSANE amount of money behind you? Would you be allowed to place ads on TV and newspapers if they were serious and in-your face ads about the corruption in the Govt? Would the Govt block this?

5. In regards to the above, if you were a serious threat...as a legit 3rd party, would you be "bumped off" or silenced by our Govt?

6. You mentioned Bush a few times druing this debate...and in the above...Cindy Sheehan. Could it be this conspiracy hits home because you are a staunch Bush/Cheney supporter and lover of the GOP? No one said anything about Bush/Cheny doing this, but could it be you are so easily offended because it would lead one to believe that Bush and Cheney were involved....and you love them so much?

7. Can you honestly say you trust this admin and Bush and Cheney? That they are on the straight and havn't lied to us about 9/11 or Iraq...WMDs etc etc.????

8. What are your thoughts on a 3rd party to bring the power and rights back to the people. A party that is NOT biased and self-centered. A party that has the American peoples interest in mind....not their own. ??????

You know where I stand about trusting the Govt and anyone invloved in it. I'm just trying to se where you stand....