Conservative pastor loses 20% of church for...

[Evanescence]

disowning conservative politics.....

Well, here, you read it.......

---------------------
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/disowning-conservative-politics-is/20060729195809990004?ncid =NWS00010000000001

MAPLEWOOD, Minn. (July 30) -- Like most pastors who lead thriving evangelical megachurches, the Rev. Gregory A. Boyd was asked frequently to give his blessing -- and the church's -- to conservative political candidates and causes.

The requests came from church members and visitors alike: Would he please announce a rally against gay marriage during services? Would he introduce a politician from the pulpit? Could members set up a table in the lobby promoting their anti-abortion work? Would the church distribute “voters’ guides” that all but endorsed Republican candidates? And with the country at war, please couldn’t the church hang an American flag in the sanctuary?

After refusing each time, Mr. Boyd finally became fed up, he said. Before the last presidential election, he preached six sermons called “The Cross and the Sword” in which he said the church should steer clear of politics, give up moralizing on sexual issues, stop claiming the United States as a “Christian nation” and stop glorifying American military campaigns.

“When the church wins the culture wars, it inevitably loses,” Mr. Boyd preached. “When it conquers the world, it becomes the world. When you put your trust in the sword, you lose the cross.”

Mr. Boyd says he is no liberal. He is opposed to abortion and thinks homosexuality is not God’s ideal. The response from his congregation at Woodland Hills Church here in suburban St. Paul -- packed mostly with politically and theologically conservative, middle-class evangelicals -- was passionate. Some members walked out of a sermon and never returned. By the time the dust had settled, Woodland Hills, which Mr. Boyd founded in 1992, had lost about 1,000 of its 5,000 members.

But there were also congregants who thanked Mr. Boyd, telling him they were moved to tears to hear him voice concerns they had been too afraid to share.

“Most of my friends are believers,” said Shannon Staiger, a psychotherapist and church member, “and they think if you’re a believer, you’ll vote for Bush. And it’s scary to go against that.”

Sermons like Mr. Boyd’s are hardly typical in today’s evangelical churches. But the upheaval at Woodland Hills is an example of the internal debates now going on in some evangelical colleges, magazines and churches. A common concern is that the Christian message is being compromised by the tendency to tie evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party and American nationalism, especially through the war in Iraq.

At least six books on this theme have been published recently, some by Christian publishing houses. Randall Balmer, a religion professor at Barnard College and an evangelical, has written “Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America -- an Evangelical’s Lament.”

And Mr. Boyd has a new book out, “The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church,” which is based on his sermons.

“There is a lot of discontent brewing,” said Brian D. McLaren, the founding pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Gaithersburg, Md., and a leader in the evangelical movement known as the “emerging church,” which is at the forefront of challenging the more politicized evangelical establishment.

“More and more people are saying this has gone too far -- the dominance of the evangelical identity by the religious right,” Mr. McLaren said. “You cannot say the word ‘Jesus’ in 2006 without having an awful lot of baggage going along with it. You can’t say the word ‘Christian,’ and you certainly can’t say the word ‘evangelical’ without it now raising connotations and a certain cringe factor in people.

“Because people think, ‘Oh no, what is going to come next is homosexual bashing, or pro-war rhetoric, or complaining about ‘activist judges.’ ”

Mr. Boyd said he had cleared his sermons with the church’s board, but his words left some in his congregation stunned. Some said that he was disrespecting President Bush and the military, that he was soft on abortion or telling them not to vote.

“When we joined years ago, Greg was a conservative speaker,” said William Berggren, a lawyer who joined the church with his wife six years ago. “But we totally disagreed with him on this. You can’t be a Christian and ignore actions that you feel are wrong. A case in point is the abortion issue. If the church were awake when abortion was passed in the 70’s, it wouldn’t have happened. But the church was asleep.”

Mr. Boyd, 49, who preaches in blue jeans and rumpled plaid shirts, leads a church that occupies a squat block-long building that was once a home improvement chain store.

The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd’s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle.

He is known among evangelicals for a bestselling book, “Letters From a Skeptic,” based on correspondence with his father, a leftist union organizer and a lifelong agnostic -- an exchange that eventually persuaded his father to embrace Christianity.

Mr. Boyd said he never intended his sermons to be taken as merely a critique of the Republican Party or the religious right. He refuses to share his party affiliation, or whether he has one, for that reason. He said there were Christians on both the left and the right who had turned politics and patriotism into “idolatry.”

He said he first became alarmed while visiting another megachurch’s worship service on a Fourth of July years ago. The service finished with the chorus singing “God Bless America” and a video of fighter jets flying over a hill silhouetted with crosses.

“I thought to myself, ‘What just happened? Fighter jets mixed up with the cross?’ ” he said in an interview.

Patriotic displays are still a mainstay in some evangelical churches. Across town from Mr. Boyd’s church, the sanctuary of North Heights Lutheran Church was draped in bunting on the Sunday before the Fourth of July this year for a “freedom celebration.” Military veterans and flag twirlers paraded into the sanctuary, an enormous American flag rose slowly behind the stage, and a Marine major who had served in Afghanistan preached that the military was spending “your hard-earned money” on good causes.

In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek “power over” others -- by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars

[larryl]

makes me want to move to minnesota and go to that church.

how very refreshing.

[Stinky Sam]

Great article.

[Sam!]

Couldn't agree more. I am studying Church History right now and it's amazing to see the changes in the Church as it gained acceptance in Rome... it's "victory" caused a lot of problems.

The kingdom of heaven transcends any of our political structures. That's where freedom is found, not in democracy. The idea that a good Christian is patriotic or nationalistic, or that a good American goes to church is really not a boon to the Church.

[Evanescence]

One of the questions I ask my pastors for my interview book is...

"What role do you think the church should play in Govt or politics"

The answers were VERY interesting..... :confused: :cool:

[Sam!]

The early church leaders never protested for government acceptance, or tried to influence government laws. They weren't concerned with running the world... very interesting.

But in a country where we have the power to elect leaders and vote on ballot issues... what is our duty as Christians? Do we simply not vote?

[jrmitch]

I agree with Dr. Boyd 100%

To answer Captain Siskos question, I think we keep doing exactly what Jesus told us to do: individually remain involved in our culture, influence it with our presence as believers, and always be ready with an answer about why our hope as Christians is based upon the finished work of the cross and not the occupants of the seats of political power. As to whether or not we should vote, I think that should be an individual choice. I choose to do so, but I also know peole who really love Jesus that choose not to.

[larryl]

for those who are interested, the sermons, along with the study guides, can be downloaded, for free, on the church's web site.

http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_682.htm

[Howlin' Wolf]

I agree with Dr. Boyd 100%

To answer Captain Siskos question, I think we keep doing exactly what Jesus told us to do: individually remain involved in our culture, influence it with our presence as believers, and always be ready with an answer about why our hope as Christians is based upon the finished work of the cross and not the occupants of the seats of political power. As to whether or not we should vote, I think that should be an individual choice. I choose to do so, but I also know peole who really love Jesus that choose not to.

another excellent post by jrmitch


<<< doesnt vote

[KarenAlexa]

Makes me wish I lived near that church...

[Sam!]

I don't even know that we need to influence the culture by engaging it. We need to bring the Good News to individuals; to proclaim Christ crucified and allow him to change them.

[kiwisongbird]

the comment about bringing the gospel to individuals is, in itself, a cultural statement - many cultures respond better to hearing the gospel in a family situation.... eg the jailer and his - me and my house comment.... :) :) :)

I want to email this article to my friend here - lovely Christian, good friend - totally 'Army' and even started a conversation one day using scripture to show that it's ok to kill people cos God told us to... I politely asked him to desist as I really couldn't enter into the conversation. We still love each other :) :)

[Mugirl04]

i would like to hear the sermons so that i can have an opion on this...

[jrmitch]

i would like to hear the sermons so that i can have an opion on this...The link's on post #8. Be sure and look at the study guides as well; in scanning through them I can see why some church members had their cage rattled. He definitely stepped on a few toes.

[cheewiee]

...The church grew from 40 members in 12 years, based in no small part on Mr. Boyd’s draw as an electrifying preacher who stuck closely to Scripture. He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future. Some pastors in his own denomination, the Baptist General Conference, mounted an effort to evict Mr. Boyd from the denomination and his teaching post, but he won that battle...


Am I the only person, slightly dismayed by atleast one of this Pastor's teachings....? :confused: :confused:

[Sam!]

That wasn't a teaching, it was something he wrestled with in seminary. So I am curious what he came up with as an answer, since he is described having stuck very close to scripture.


And taking the Gospel to a family is not the same as trying to change the culture... the point is that we don't have to change the culture. The culture (that is, the world) will never be up to Christian standards. Forcing it on a group of people will not accomplish the change we really want. But the culture also has no power over us. I would even consider preaching to the crowds as the Apostles did as takign the Gospel to the "individual" in that they are seeking converts, not cultural change.

[cheewiee]

That wasn't a teaching, it was something he wrestled with in seminary. So I am curious what he came up with as an answer, since he is described having stuck very close to scripture.

Here is what it says again..
He has degrees from Yale Divinity School and Princeton Theological Seminary, and he taught theology at Bethel College in St. Paul, where he created a controversy a few years ago by questioning whether God fully knew the future.

The way that is worded to me doesn't say he was a student in seminary, but a teacher at the college.... And your right it depends on the answer he came up with that is important. but it is also interesting to point out that Teaching Jesus is God's son would be considered by the New York Times (origionator of this article) as being theologically Conservative and not mainstream. that suggests to me that this pastors label by the newspaper as being "Conservative" may not be accurate... Perhaps conservative by the viewpoint of the writer of the article, but he could very well still stand outside Orthadox Christianity on important issues...

And taking the Gospel to a family is not the same as trying to change the culture... the point is that we don't have to change the culture. The culture (that is, the world) will never be up to Christian standards. Forcing it on a group of people will not accomplish the change we really want. But the culture also has no power over us. I would even consider preaching to the crowds as the Apostles did as takign the Gospel to the "individual" in that they are seeking converts, not cultural change.

Your right, I am not arguing in favor of Dominion theology... I was the one last year to dare suggest that for a christian to reciete the pledge is near lying, in that our ultimate loyalty isn't to a nation but to God....

[jrmitch]

This may help clarify the issue of what Boyd taught on Gods knowledge of the future while he was at Bethel (haven't had time to look at it in depth yet, but wanted y'all to get the link):

http://www.gregboyd.org/oldcvm/gbfront/indexa84c.html?PageID=257

[cheewiee]

This may help clarify the issue of what Boyd taught on Gods knowledge of the future while he was at Bethel (haven't had time to look at it in depth yet, but wanted y'all to get the link):

http://www.gregboyd.org/oldcvm/gbfront/indexa84c.html?PageID=257

That's what I thought...

Open View theology tends to be a liberal philosophical view of God that isn't really supported by Scripture... Scripture supports an All Knowing God... or Omniscient God...

So while I appreciate his stance on Dominion Theology, I wouldn't want to go near this man's church...

[jrmitch]

That's what I thought...

Open View theology tends to be a liberal philosophical view of God that isn't really supported by Scripture... Scripture supports an All Knowing God... or Omniscient God...

So while I appreciate his stance on Dominion Theology, I wouldn't want to go near this man's church...Cheewie, if you haven't done so yet you might want to take a moment to scan both his scriptural support and related comments in support of his viewpoints. I had much the same mindset, but as I scanned through the section on Common objections and examined specific statements from Dr. Boyd his viewpoint didn't seem nearly as far off base as I originally thought it would be.

Here's one example: The open view undermines our confidence in God’s ability to accomplish his purposes | I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God can and has guaranteed whatever he wants about the future, since he is omnipotent. I also affirm (because Scripture also teaches) that God created us with the capacity to love, and thus empowered us to decide some matters for ourselves. Within the parameters set by the Creator, parameters which guarantee whatever God wants to guarantee about the future, humans have some degree of self-determination. This means that concerning the fate of particular individuals things may not turn out as God desires. If we deny this, we must accept that God actually desires some people to go to hell. Scripture denies this (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9).

I realize that this flies in the face of Calvinism, but Boyd seems to unapologetically be an Arminian. I also know that he wouldn't be accepted as a contributing writer to the CRI Journal if he was that far off base, and I'm gonna have to dig deeper into his material because it definitely gave me something to chew on. ;)

[cheewiee]

Cheewie, if you haven't done so yet you might want to take a moment to scan his scriptural support for his viewpoints. I had much the same mindset, but as I scanned through them and his correlating statements his viewpoint didn't seem nearly as far off base as I originally thought it would be. In fact, I'm gonna have to dig deeper, because it gave me something to chew on. ;)

I have read a bit about open view theisim....

And it's easly refuted...

The bible describes God as being Eternal, and as an Eternal Being he created the Universe... Including time...

God exists outside of our concept of time.. He views Yesterday, as he views today, as he views tommarow... they are the same to him.. (A day is as a thousand years... )

With respect to John, we really should get back to the discussion at hand (the Religious right/Dominion Theology). I only pointed this out to show that this Pastor isn't the conservative Baptist minister that the article painted him out to be....

[jrmitch]

I have read a bit about open view theisim....

And it's easly refuted...

The bible describes God as being Eternal, and as an Eternal Being he created the Universe... Including time...

God exists outside of our concept of time.. He views Yesterday, as he views today, as he views tommarow... they are the same to him.. (A day is as a thousand years... )Yes, but......:D

A key point of open view theism is the free will of man and it's relationship to the Omniscience of God. I'm gonna respectfully borrow a previous post from Pouye, one of our fellow members. (For those unfamiliar with Rock he's a Wycliffe Bible Translator in New Guinea). Here's what he had to say in a recent board discussion about free will:

I believe God sovereignly ordained volition. In other words, He created His higher creatures to have the ability to freely act and reason. Because God is love, and love never demands its own way, I believe He sovereignly works all things to His glory, but He Himself did not create evil or sin directly. In other words, evil and sin are the "natural" result of ordaining volition.

The alternative, I believe, is that God planned everything precisely from beginning to end just as it is, and God even planned every murder, injustice, rape, mutilation, suffering; every sinful act was written first by God, who would be the author of the story. In other words, God concieved of every evil act and wrote them out in His divine "play" before He openned the curtain on the stage.

The Bible specifically tells us that there are some sins or evil acts that never even entered His mind, nor did He intend for them to happen. Either God is lying about this, or there is something to this that we humans cannot grasp about the sovereignty of God.

I believe God ordained volition, but that in no way does this ordination compromise His sovereignty -- for even though evil and sin came about as a result of His sovereign plan to ordain/allow volition, His ultimate authority or sovereignty carries out His ultimate purposes; in a mysterious way, those things God decided, by divine ordination, to leave out of His "direct" control will, because of His ultimate sovereignty, ultimately fulfill God's eternal plans.

Is evil, sin, and suffering God's fault or are humans at fault? That is a great question to ask in determining the thoughts of people about God. Atheists often assert that if God exists, He is either too mean or uncaring to intervene (to relieve pain and horrors), or else simply not able to do so, thus making Him a God who is neither all-powerful, nor worthy of honor.

If evil, sin and suffering is a result of God ordaining volition, than God would also have to know that by doing so, some humans (or angels) would inevitably follow a disobedient path (choose what is not of God or of His ways and will). If this is the case, God must have thought that even though pain and unspeakable evils and suffering would result from such a divine ordination, a greater good would result. A small scale example of this is vaccinations. There is a risk that your child, when vaccinated, might be killed by the very disease you are trying to prevent. In fact, several children die each year from complications from vaccinations. They also have to feel the pain of a needle and the swelling and soreness. So how can a person subject their children to such risk, pain, and suffering? The answer if for a greater good -- a healthy society and more chance for future generations to be disease free. For every child vaccinated, 10 children born in the future will have a greater chance to survive and live a healthy life.

In the case of someone who does not believe in free will, they must wrestle with the idea that God, before humans were even created, must have actually planned out all of the evil and sin that each person was to ever commit. I don't believe this is possible, since God Himself admits that some of the evil actions humans have done have never even entered His mind. The Bible is also clear that God is good, and that He doesn't tempt anyone to sin, nor does He force anyone to sin. There are those who take Calvinism to the extreme that every evil action on the planet was first conceived in the mind of God, and it is God who planned out every rape, murder, and horrific act of evil before the world began. If taken to extreme, a person can even use this sort of mentality to rejoice when evil, pain and suffering befalls another (especially a non-believer), because, according to them, it was God's will for that evil to come about, and who is to challenge the will of God?

This is a very similar argument to Dr. Boyds, in the sense that God has given us the freedom to make our own decisions within the scope of Gods soveregnity. I'm definitely gonna have to make some time soon to examine Boyds scriptural support in detail.

[cheewiee]

I realize that this flies in the face of Calvinism, but Boyd seems to unapologetically be an Arminian. I also know that he wouldn't be accepted as a contributing writer to the CRI Journal if he was that far off base, and I'm gonna have to dig deeper into his material because it definitely gave me something to chew on. ;)

There is a difference between God ordaining and predestinating all events to happen (Calvinism), and God simply fully aware of future events...

And again, God is aware of future events not as future events, but to him as Present events, because God exists outside of our concepts of time...

If you have any questions about this you should read the Chapter in Mere Christianity "Time and Beyond Time".

[cheewiee]

Yes, but......:D

A key point of open view theism is the free will of man and it's relationship to the Omniscience of God. I'm gonna respectfully borrow a previous post from Pouye, one of our fellow members. (For those unfamiliar with Rock he's a Wycliffe Bible Translator in New Guinea). Here's what he had to say in a recent board discussion about free will:

Arminianisim and Open View Theism is not the same...

Open View Theisim goes further, in saying that God does not know how future events will play out... But he will...

Now does God knowing how you will decide affect what you decide? No because again, God see's tommarow the same way he views today... Considering he created Time, he exists outside of it, just like he exists outside of our universe...

Also, for God to not be omnicient (All knowing) means he is not God, just a very powerful being...

[Sam!]

Wookie,

My mistake. I mis-read the quote. As a teacher, questioning something is quite different than as a student.

[Sam!]

"Also, for God to not be ominicient (All knowing) means he is not God, just a very powerful being..."

I am not questioning God's omniscience but how do you justify this statement that God by definition must be omniscient?

[Valpo]

the religious right, who some may say i belong too because I'm a Republican and Biblical literalist, have no place to tell the church who to vote for, I dont care if someone endorses my favorite politican John McCain at church it should NOT be done...but dont think it's just the right that does this, the left also has an agenda, my parents, both of whom Lutheran, attended church at my mothers sisters church, who is catholic, the priest gave a sermon (homily) not on God's love and redemptive work through Christ, but on the destructive nature of Republicans and George W. Bush, I wish I would have been there so I could have left in the middle of the homily, the funny thing is not many there objected to what was going on! And these are the same people who denounce the right for being too religious, the hypocrisy runs rampant on either side of the aisle and although it is good for the church to be involved "politically", by that I mean in charity work and community development, it should not be publically endorsing candidates to any particular office whatsoever, end of story

[Valpo]

"Also, for God to not be ominicient (All knowing) means he is not God, just a very powerful being..."

I am not questioning God's omniscience but how do you justify this statement that God by definition must be omniscient?

The Bible has countless verses pointing to God's omnipotence, this isnt much of a thing to be debated, to say God doesnt know the way of the future is an utter farce

[cheewiee]

"Also, for God to not be ominicient (All knowing) means he is not God, just a very powerful being..."

I am not questioning God's omniscience but how do you justify this statement that God by definition must be omniscient?

For God to be God... he has to be omniscient... All knowing.. Even Open Theiests in their teachings do not deny God's Omniscience...

here is an interesting read on God's Omniscience and Free will...

http://www.carm.org/questions/free_will.htm

[cheewiee]

the religious right, who some may say i belong too because I'm a Republican and Biblical literalist, have no place to tell the church who to vote for, I dont care if someone endorses my favorite politican John McCain at church it should NOT be done...but dont think it's just the right that does this, the left also has an agenda, my parents, both of whom Lutheran, attended church at my mothers sisters church, who is catholic, the priest gave a sermon (homily) not on God's love and redemptive work through Christ, but on the destructive nature of Republicans and George W. Bush, I wish I would have been there so I could have left in the middle of the homily, the funny thing is not many there objected to what was going on! And these are the same people who denounce the right for being too religious, the hypocrisy runs rampant on either side of the aisle and although it is good for the church to be involved "politically", by that I mean in charity work and community development, it should not be publically endorsing candidates to any particular office whatsoever, end of story

What's interesting, is my Church just established a "Community Wall" where our Pastor's key to the city is posted, along with several other proclimations about our church by the City & county councils (For our various outreach work) and up there is a Picture of George W. Bush.... I was going to mention something to my Pastor About it... but I think I will wait until 2008 and see if the winner is a Democrat if their picture goes up...

[Valpo]

What's interesting, is my Church just established a "Community Wall" where our Pastor's key to the city is posted, along with several other proclimations about our church by the City & county councils (For our various outreach work) and up there is a Picture of George W. Bush.... I was going to mention something to my Pastor About it... but I think I will wait until 2008 and see if the winner is a Democrat if their picture goes up...


yeah true, my church in the library has a thank you proclamation signed by the President because our staff helps tutor younger students after school, but that would be up there even if Dennis Kucinich was president, providing we all hadnt perished from the terrorist field day that would have ensued

[cheewiee]

yeah true, my church in the library has a thank you proclamation signed by the President because our staff helps tutor younger students after school, but that would be up there even if Dennis Kucinich was president, providing we all hadnt perished from the terrorist field day that would have ensued

I can say this... My Pastor was VERY CLEAR about not talking about Clinton when he was in office (his various scandels) and said that we should pray for the President, just as if he were somone we wanted to be in office....

[BigDaddy]

This is a great post and very interesting discussion. First off, I am 100% in agreement with the pastor on the church and politics. I haven't looked at the sermons and study guides yet, but from the article, I think he is right on. I think that we can still vote and be involved, but as I watched in the media and some of my friends during this latest presidential election, I saw passionate politics getting in the way of passionate love for a lost and dying world. I'm pretty sure that when Jesus said love your neighbor, that he meant liberals and sinners too.

Anyway, I've also gotten into the debate on an all-knowing God. The person that I discussed it with believed that if God knew everything in the future, it would limit our free will. I believe that God knows everything and that just because He knows what we'll do, that does not mean that He will control that choice. We eventually had to agree to disagree.

[cheewiee]

This is a great post and very interesting discussion. First off, I am 100% in agreement with the pastor on the church and politics. I haven't looked at the sermons and study guides yet, but from the article, I think he is right on. I think that we can still vote and be involved, but as I watched in the media and some of my friends during this latest presidential election, I saw passionate politics getting in the way of passionate love for a lost and dying world. I'm pretty sure that when Jesus said love your neighbor, that he meant liberals and sinners too.

I like the tagline from his book The Sword and the Cross.. Something about how an Idol of Nationalisim is destroying the church (Not that something can destroy the true church) but it's a great point...

Anyway, I've also gotten into the debate on an all-knowing God. The person that I discussed it with believed that if God knew everything in the future, it would limit our free will. I believe that God knows everything and that just because He knows what we'll do, that does not mean that He will control that choice. We eventually had to agree to disagree.

Again.. God knows what we will do, not because he forsees it in the future.. but because to God, He see's the future the way he see's today, and he sees the past as today...

We as humans have a hard time grasping a noncomporial existance, because all we have known is comporial existance...

Sisko should understand what I am trying to say... (DS9 Fan and all as he is)...

[jrmitch]

I can say this... My Pastor was VERY CLEAR about not talking about Clinton when he was in office (his various scandels) and said that we should pray for the President, just as if he were somone we wanted to be in office....As was mine, and unfortunately they were both in the minority, because the conservative church was cruel to the man they were supposed to be Biblically upholding in prayer.

In 1994 Philip Yancey had an opportunity to spend some time with Clinton and wrote two columns for Christianity Today . Here's what he had to say about the second article (The Riddle of Bill Clintons Faith) and the response from the evangelical community:

"After our interview I wrote what I thought was a balanced account of President Clinton and his faith, giving considerable space to the issue of abortion, in which I contrasted his waffling views with the moral absolutes of Mother Teresa. I was totally unprepared for the firestorm of reaction.....In 25 years of journalism I have received my share of mixed reviews. Even so, as I read through stacks of vituperative letters I got a strong sense for why the world does not associate the word "grace" with evangelical Christians".
(What's so Amazing About Grace; pgs 225-227).

[halvey]

t...but dont think it's just the right that does this, the left also has an agenda, my parents, both of whom Lutheran, attended church at my mothers sisters church, who is catholic, the priest gave a sermon (homily) not on God's love and redemptive work through Christ, but on the destructive nature of Republicans and George W. Bush, And that's exactly the problem with this article. Look at the ELCA Luthern website and under their social causes see if that isn't right from the DNC platform.

That said, I wish ALL churches and for that matter ALL religions would stay out of politics. I am pretty involved in politics and it's not because of my faith.

[Sam!]

haha... a noncorporeal beings reference! got to love it...

I wouldn't say the invasion of nationalism is destroying the church. It is, however, corrupting the Western church (much more the Protestants than Catholics I'd have to say).

But that's not anything new. It's been going on for hundreds of years to some degree and it's somewhat cyclical I think. Of course, we are still to work to correct it with God's "help".

[Sam!]

And that's exactly the problem with this article. Look at the ELCA Luthern website and under their social causes see if that isn't right from the DNC platform.

That said, I wish ALL churches and for that matter ALL religions would stay out of politics. I am pretty involved in politics and it's not because of my faith.
Oh, and welcome to the Third Day Message Board Madness, halvey. Hope to see you around... Kudos to you for just jumping right into the HT forum.

[cheewiee]

haha... a noncorporeal beings reference! got to love it...

I wouldn't say the invasion of nationalism is destroying the church. It is, however, corrupting the Western church (much more the Protestants than Catholics I'd have to say).

But that's not anything new. It's been going on for hundreds of years to some degree and it's somewhat cyclical I think. Of course, we are still to work to correct it with God's "help".

The current invasion of Nationalisim began in the 1950's with the Red Scare... the Godless Communists, and the term "under God" being added to the pledge...

The political Leaders knew that the Majority of America of the Day were christians, and the best way to rally the nation against Communisim and the Soviet Union was to do so combining Nationalism and Christianity...

[jrmitch]

Oh, and welcome to the Third Day Message Board Madness, halvey. Hope to see you around... Kudos to you for just jumping right into the HT forum.Likewise. :D

[Valpo]

And that's exactly the problem with this article. Look at the ELCA Luthern website and under their social causes see if that isn't right from the DNC platform.

That said, I wish ALL churches and for that matter ALL religions would stay out of politics. I am pretty involved in politics and it's not because of my faith.


oh goodness, dont get me started on the ELCA

[Valpo]

The current invasion of Nationalisim began in the 1950's with the Red Scare... the Godless Communists, and the term "under God" being added to the pledge...

The political Leaders knew that the Majority of America of the Day were christians, and the best way to rally the nation against Communisim and the Soviet Union was to do so combining Nationalism and Christianity...


maybe even earlier.....the American flag was added to the sanctuary in the American Lutheran Church's during World War II to show allegiance to the USA considering the Lutheran Church stems from Germany...now thats not to say I am no proud American bc i love the heck otu of this country, but the separation exists bc of the separation of kingdoms, the separation doesnt exist for the reason the left think it does either tho freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion, but as far as the church endorsing and deciding political things ( if it is outside the community) it should keep its yap closed and preach from the Bible, I would also like to take this time to thank Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, and others who have made conservative Christians the butt of jokes in America and have made it a social norm to rail against Biblical Literalists, thank you fellas for having some in this country believe me to be a moron

[middletree]

It's a shame this guy is (apparently) and Open Theist, because his general point about the tendency of Evangelical Christians to shut out non-conservatives is a valid one.

For the record, I am a conservative who votes Republican. But I have to acknowledge that I might be wrong on any of a number of issues for which I believe God has a definite opinion. And there are other issues which God most likely doesn't take a stance. Or doesn't mandate that we take a stance. It really bothers me how this is so hard for many believers to fathom.

<sidetrack about abortion>
I support the church's efforts to get abortion outlawed through the system; that is, encouraging members to let their voice be heard by voting. That's because abortion is a spiritual issue, not a political one.

However, any church that stops at voting is going to see its efforts be inneffective in reducing abortion. Abortion isn't a problem. It's a symptom of a problem. It's a sympton of a nation that has rejected Jesus. The church should work on showing God's love to people, and there is no doubt that the increase in people who turn to God (or return to God) will result in a proportionate decrease in abortions.
</end sidetrack about abortion>

[cheewiee]

...I would also like to take this time to thank Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, and others who have made conservative Christians the butt of jokes in America and have made it a social norm to rail against Biblical Literalists, thank you fellas for having some in this country believe me to be a moron

I would like to say, that it isn't necessarly the Robertsons, & Fallwells that have made literalists look like morons... I have on multiple occassions been called an Idiot, for believing the biblical account of the Flood and the Tower of Babel....

Said beliefs have nothing to do with either the villification of Robertson, or fallwell...

Aside from some of their more ridicilous statements, I do believe that they have been vilified by the media as they have taken their statements and blown them way out of proportion...

[Valpo]

It's a shame this guy is (apparently) and Open Theist, because his general point about the tendency of Evangelical Christians to shut out non-conservatives is a valid one.

For the record, I am a conservative who votes Republican. But I have to acknowledge that I might be wrong on any of a number of issues for which I believe God has a definite opinion. And there are other issues which God most likely doesn't take a stance. Or doesn't mandate that we take a stance. It really bothers me how this is so hard for many believers to fathom.

<sidetrack about abortion>
I support the church's efforts to get abortion outlawed through the system; that is, encouraging members to let their voice be heard by voting. That's because abortion is a spiritual issue, not a political one.

However, any church that stops at voting is going to see its efforts be inneffective in reducing abortion. Abortion isn't a problem. It's a symptom of a problem. It's a sympton of a nation that has rejected Jesus. The church should work on showing God's love to people, and there is no doubt that the increase in people who turn to God (or return to God) will result in a proportionate decrease in abortions.
</end sidetrack about abortion>


yeah, I'd have to agree, the nutjobs who prance the streets with pictures of dead babies outside abortion clinics are a disgrace, I am 100% against abortion and would never advise a woman to get one, but that is no way in showing it is wrong, I would say 99% of women who get abortions arent gung ho about it and a lot regret it afterwards, but not the point the point is abortion exists and it should be discouraged but not vehemently to the point where it's "Well, there go those crazy Christians again" A lot on the right seem to forget Jesus came to the sinners, we are all sinners, He dined with the dirt of the earth when He was here, and some have a serious mental bloc to that

[halvey]

oh goodness, dont get me started on the ELCAWell, I didn't mean to single the ELCA out, just they were heavily involved on a political issue here a few years back, so it's an easy target for me :p .

A bit OT, but the way I look at it is being a Christian shapes my character so that will obviously spill over into my politics. But yeah, saying voting for GW is "God's will" is out of line IMO. On the other hand, look at the terrorists in the middle east. They are using "God" to push their political agenda.

[Sam!]

One more reason I am leaving the Episcopal Church of the USA: as a national body they have endorsed teh Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice... i.e. an abortion rights movement. When offered the chance to repent of this over the summer, the motion was tabled. :( And this apostate "church" wonders why it's hemorrhaging membership...

Abortion is murder, and something that is irreversible. If gay marriage is legal, the church offers the chance for repentance and healing. But even when a woman repents and asks forgiveness for murdering her unborn child, that child is not going to be coming back. Much bigger issue to me... and one that affects everybody directly. There are 30+ million Americans missing! THat's what, the entire state of California. Imagine if we just offed the whole state of CA... on second thought... j/k :cool:

[Valpo]

I would like to say, that it isn't necessarly the Robertsons, & Fallwells that have made literalists look like morons... I have on multiple occassions been called an Idiot, for believing the biblical account of the Flood and the Tower of Babel....

Said beliefs have nothing to do with either the villification of Robertson, or fallwell...

Aside from some of their more ridicilous statements, I do believe that they have been vilified by the media as they have taken their statements and blown them way out of proportion...


bc they say outrageous things though, and hey Satan will brew hatred and no doubt people without knowing who pat and jerry are have and will call me an idiot but just watch late night tv or tv in general, interviewers and interviewees alike take jabs at conservative Christianity like it's the latest fad so people like robertson and fallwell strengthen their argument to the unreached world

[Sam!]

(tag you're it in the NL East thread)

It is unfortunate that many who don't know otherwise tend to lump "conservative Christians" in with Falwell. I.e. "Falwell and the rest of the conservative Christians believe XXXXXX"

[Valpo]

(tag you're it in the NL East thread)

It is unfortunate that many who don't know otherwise tend to lump "conservative Christians" in with Falwell. I.e. "Falwell and the rest of the conservative Christians believe XXXXXX"

haha i wrote you back



and solid post here, it is unfortunate, but I guess thats the ignorance of this world

[cheewiee]

(tag you're it in the NL East thread)

It is unfortunate that many who don't know otherwise tend to lump "conservative Christians" in with Falwell. I.e. "Falwell and the rest of the conservative Christians believe XXXXXX"

That's because those guys (Falwell, Robertson) have the microphone... The media likes for them to have the microphone because they say nutty and outragous things... They however don't want to give sane normal christians the microphone, because they might say stuff that makes spiritual sense...

Plus what's going to sell more advertising dollars... Reporting that reverand So and so is engaged in a campain to feed the poor... or that Reverand What's his name is saying that such and such is reaping judgement for their wickedness...

[Sam!]

That's because those guys (Falwell, Robertson) have the microphone... The media likes for them to have the microphone because they say nutty and outragous things... They however don't want to give sane normal christians the microphone, because they might say stuff that makes spiritual sense...

Plus what's going to sell more advertising dollars... Reporting that reverand So and so is engaged in a campain to feed the poor... or that Reverand What's his name is saying that such and such is reaping judgement for their wickedness...
I understand their fascination with them... I just wish they did not stereotype all or most Christians as clones of them, ya know?

[cheewiee]

I understand their fascination with them... I just wish they did not stereotype all or most Christians as clones of them, ya know?

I am honestly becoming of the opinion that the media wants to vilify christians... for whatever reason... Perhaps they see us as unenlightened, backwards folk with nothing but hate in us and they are trying to expose it... but none the less... The media (national media) really tries it seems to paint believers... especially us evangelical conservative types as a bunch of hate mongering bigots... That can't be an accidental portrayal can it?

[Evanescence]

I am honestly becoming of the opinion that the media wants to vilify christians... for whatever reason... Perhaps they see us as unenlightened, backwards folk with nothing but hate in us and they are trying to expose it... but none the less... The media (national media) really tries it seems to paint believers... especially us evangelical conservative types as a bunch of hate mongering bigots... That can't be an accidental portrayal can it?

You are so right. I think a lot of the media is run by extreme liberals. Now, I'm not a fan of any extreme sides...Cons or Libs, but nonetheless, I think we can safely say that Hollywood and the elite of the media doesnt have a serious relationship with God,....or some are non-believers or agnostic, so it should be no surpirse they think we're nuts for believing in a God we cant see or touch.....or so they think we can't.

However, I do feelt hat the corrupt among us set a bad example and these corrupt are spread throughout the church. Its not just an isolated case, we see the crisis witht he Catholic priests and hear of all sorts of bad things....really BAD things doen by pastors.....everywhere we turn. People like dirty laundry so it sells and becomes the basis for stereotyping.

This is why I agree when people talk about these folk among us. I agree with them and denounce those who make us look bad. I will help string them up, if you know the truth.

That's because those guys (Falwell, Robertson) have the microphone... The media likes for them to have the microphone because they say nutty and outragous things... They however don't want to give sane normal christians the microphone, because they might say stuff that makes spiritual sense...

Plus what's going to sell more advertising dollars... Reporting that reverand So and so is engaged in a campain to feed the poor... or that Reverand What's his name is saying that such and such is reaping judgement for their wickedness...

SO true..... :cool:

[cheewiee]

This is why I agree when people talk about these folk among us. I agree with them and denounce those who make us look bad. I will help string them up, if you know the truth.

My problem with denouncing them is that to me its wasted energy...

The fact is I can either 1. Jump up and down and scream how bad and rotten Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson is... or 2. I can be an example of what real christianity is...

That first option is only going to present a divided front, and that's not going to turn people onto christ anyway....

When people see the second option, they get hit by the fact that not all christians are like those guys on TV... so perhaps there really is something more to this..

That is why I honestly believe it energy best spend persuing God, and leaving the Fallwells, and robertsons to their own devices....

[Gandalf]

Am I the only person, slightly dismayed by atleast one of this Pastor's teachings....? :confused: :confused:
He's one of the foremost Open Theists - I certainly wouldn't consider him a conservative pastor. He may pastor a group that includes some political conservatives, but theologically he's so far out in left field, I'm not sure if he's even in the right ballpark anymore.

James is right that he makes a valid point about evangelical Christians being too prone to accepting/rejecting people based on politics, but I don't think Evanescence's characterization of him as a "conservative pastor" is accurate, personally.

[cheewiee]

He's one of the foremost Open Theists - I certainly wouldn't consider him a conservative pastor. He may pastor a group that includes some political conservatives, but theologically he's so far out in left field, I'm not sure if he's even in the right ballpark anymore.

James is right that he makes a valid point about evangelical Christians being too prone to accepting/rejecting people based on politics, but I don't think Evanescence's characterization of him as a "conservative pastor" is accurate, personally.

Well.. There are two conservatives that people usualy merge into one..

The first is Political... and that is pretty self explanitory....

The second is theological, with the Jesus Seminar being on the far far far left, and the King James Only Crowd being on the far far far right....

Although on Boyds sight he does have an answer on the Jesus Seminar...

[larryl]

The media (national media) really tries it seems to paint believers... especially us evangelical conservative types as a bunch of hate mongering bigots... That can't be an accidental portrayal can it?

sadly, there are a lot of christians out there who listen to falwell, etc, and agree.....i hear a lot of attitudes from christians that just shock me. so it's not ALL the media types....i hear it right in my southern conservative church. (not from the pulpit, mind you)

[cheewiee]

sadly, there are a lot of christians out there who listen to falwell, etc, and agree.....i hear a lot of attitudes from christians that just shock me. so it's not ALL the media types....i hear it right in my southern conservative church. (not from the pulpit, mind you)

Those are people who hide behind religion to justify their political idiologies, and those guys on TV give them the opportunity to do so...

They are no different than the Christian Identity movement... just a little less extreme...

So it still goes back to what I was saying... we either refute their definition of Christianity, or we go on to let the Spirit of God define it though us...

I would rather go the second route... Let the idiots be idiots.... God will judge them accordingly...

[Evanescence]

I only poisted what he headline said......

I dont know if he could be called conservative or not.....

Its really just a matter of opinion....