Andrea Yates found not guilty by reason of insanity

[cebrina33]

http://www.click2houston.com/news/9577412/detail.html

[Musicdude]

Insane? More like possesed.

[Yippy]

I would say that you'd have to be one or the other. So sad.

[cebrina33]

I would say that you'd have to be one or the other. So sad.

True. Yes, it is so sad.

[thief001]

Insane? More like possesed.

I think that her reaction in the courtroom shows that the "insanity" defense was a ruse. The "Oh my goodness, I just got away with murder" look on her face said it all!:mad:

[Debbie]

Have to be, her ability to function and eat is a sign of either. It is just awful. I believe her husband to be a very compassionate man.

[hefdaddy42]

He's either compassionate or somewhat unbalanced himself.

[SonflowerGurl]

It's absolutely horrific those children were killed, but...

As someone who has had a close relative with serious mental illness ---Andrea has all the classic signs ---she is the very definition of insane....it's not compassion but the right thing to do. Trust me, now that she is not in a psychotic state -- she is probably devastated with her actions.

[DareDevil]

Only God knows for sure whether she is really insane or not, but I sure hope that he guided the judge in his decision.

[Musicdude]

It's absolutely horrific those children were killed, but...

As someone who has had a close relative with serious mental illness ---Andrea has all the classic signs ---she is the very definition of insane....it's not compassion but the right thing to do. Trust me, now that she is not in a psychotic state -- she is probably devastated with her actions.

Then that's even more reason she should be locked up and not allowed to have children. She is a danger to society in general if she cannot even understand why it's not ok to kill people, especially your own children. You've got to be able to overcome a lot of maternal instinct to do something like that. And then to do it four more times? I'm sorry, but it was not an accident. And if she truly was that derranged, then why was she ever left alone with children anyway?

[cheewiee]

Then that's even more reason she should be locked up and not allowed to have children. She is a danger to society in general if she cannot even understand why it's not ok to kill people, especially your own children. You've got to be able to overcome a lot of maternal instinct to do something like that. And then to do it four more times? I'm sorry, but it was not an accident. And if she truly was that derranged, then why was she ever left alone with children anyway?

Have you read anything about this lady?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

This lady was involved with a whacko Christian based Personality cult
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Peter_Woroniecki
That taught some whacked out things... Coupled with postpardem Depression led to this tragic event...

[bdfwinn]

Then that's even more reason she should be locked up and not allowed to have children. She is a danger to society in general if she cannot even understand why it's not ok to kill people, especially your own children. You've got to be able to overcome a lot of maternal instinct to do something like that. And then to do it four more times? I'm sorry, but it was not an accident. And if she truly was that derranged, then why was she ever left alone with children anyway?


Amen Musicdude!

"The cult made me do it." "I came from a bad family" "The dog ate my homework"

Hey I am sorry that this lady's children are dead. I'm sorry she was in a cult but SHE killed 5 children. She took them one by one into a bathtub and drowned them. She held their little precious heads under water until they were dead. I don't care if she was in a cult or insane she is guilty of killing her children and should be punished accordingly! This boneheaded jury of a kangaroo court has once again set a precedent for more people to commit crimes and get away with it. Nobody won in that case. Not the citizens of the USA, not the husband, not Mrs. Yates, not her children, and to be sure- not the next child killed by a frustrated parent who can just claim to be "insane".

Bill

*climbs down from soap box and heads off for a shot of scotch*

[cheewiee]

Amen Musicdude!

"The cult made me do it." "I came from a bad family" "The dog ate my homework"

Hey I am sorry that this lady's children are dead. I'm sorry she was in a cult but SHE killed 5 children. She took them one by one into a bathtub and drowned them. She held their little precious heads under water until they were dead. I don't care if she was in a cult or insane she is guilty of killing her children and should be punished accordingly! This boneheaded jury of a kangaroo court has once again set a precedent for more people to commit crimes and get away with it. Nobody won in that case. Not the citizens of the USA, not the husband, not Mrs. Yates, not her children, and to be sure- not the next child killed by a frustrated parent who can just claim to be "insane".

Bill

*climbs down from soap box and heads off for a shot of scotch*


While I don't know if I believer her... This lady Claims that she heard God in her head telling her to kill her children because of the Teachings of her "Pastor".

She's a nutjob.. In this country Nutjobs go to the Looney bin, not the prison, and that is where this lady is going... She will not be going home, she will not be passing go... she will be going to a mental institution designed to help her work through her screwed up head...

Is it fair that she lives and her kids are dead? Let me ask you this, Is it fair that Jesus Died for your sins so that you could live? I am not comparing this lady to the Christ, but I am saying that this world is filled with unfair situations... If she is truly off her rocker then prison isn't the place for her, her place is in a padded room with white walls... Which again is where she is going...

[Musicdude]

She's a nutjob.. In this country Nutjobs go to the Looney bin, not the prison, and that is where this lady is going... She will not be going home, she will not be passing go... she will be going to a mental institution designed to help her work through her screwed up head...

My point is that becoming that wacked out does not happen overnight. If it was truly insanity, surely there had to have been some signs leading up to it. How come her husband didn't notice his wife was a wackjob and have her put away before she killed anyone? Or her friends? Or her acquaintences? Anybody who knew her? I know. Because she wasn't/isn't insane. If she was insane, how come no one knew about it until after she killed her 5 children?
It sounds like a copout to me.

Is it fair that she lives and her kids are dead? Let me ask you this, Is it fair that Jesus Died for your sins so that you could live? I am not comparing this lady to the Christ, but I am saying that this world is filled with unfair situations... If she is truly off her rocker then prison isn't the place for her, her place is in a padded room with white walls... Which again is where she is going...

Jesus Christ chose to die for us. The Yates children had no choice. You cannot compare the two, because they have absolutely nothing in common. You're right, prison isn't the place for her. The execution room is the place for her.
An asylum would've been a good place for her prior to killing her children. But not now.

[cheewiee]

My point is that becoming that wacked out does not happen overnight. If it was truly insanity, surely there had to have been some signs leading up to it. How come her husband didn't notice his wife was a wackjob and have her put away before she killed anyone? Or her friends? Or her acquaintences? Anybody who knew her? I know. Because she wasn't/isn't insane. If she was insane, how come no one knew about it until after she killed her 5 children?
It sounds like a copout to me.

From what I heard, she was getting help for her Issues, and was usualy NEVER left alone, however at the suggestion of the Dr's her Husband was spending an hour out of the house to help her overcome her dependance on him..

She had a HISTORY of mental illness this wasn't a Kill your babies and claim something out of the blue...

And Knowing someone who went through postpardum, it isn't as easy as you think... When a mother and a baby don't bond there are real phsychological issues that raise up... feelings of inadiquacy, feelings of rejection... Then throw on the Religious crackpot telling you your a bad mother and if your kids continue to grow up in your house they will go to hell... You could probibly see how that might have really warped her discision making process..



Jesus Christ chose to die for us. The Yates children had no choice. You cannot compare the two, because they have absolutely nothing in common.

So because Jesus chose to die for us, his death becomes fair?


You're right, prison isn't the place for her. The execution room is the place for her.

WHOAH :( Wow... All I can say, is that Hell is the place for you... You should be thankful that God showed mercy on you... Perhaps you should look to him as an example...

[Musicdude]

And Knowing someone who went through postpardum, it isn't as easy as you think... When a mother and a baby don't bond there are real phsychological issues that raise up... feelings of inadiquacy, feelings of rejection... Then throw on the Religious crackpot telling you your a bad mother and if your kids continue to grow up in your house they will go to hell... You could probibly see how that might have really warped her discision making process..

She made a choice to do what she did. I don't care what influenced her choice. It was her choice. When you make decisions, you must take responsibility for the consequences. And if you won't willingly take the responsibility, then you must be forced to take it.





So because Jesus chose to die for us, his death becomes fair?

How do you define fair? God chose to sacrifice Himself for others and He did so. How is that not fair?


WHOAH :( Wow... All I can say, is that Hell is the place for you... You should be thankful that God showed mercy on you... Perhaps you should look to him as an example...

God may show mercy on her as well, but that is beside the point. God showing mercy on someone is no reason to relieve them of being accountable for their decisions. She will be forgiven for those sins by God, and all she has to do is ask. But that is an eternal condition, and there are temporal consequences for crimes of that nature. Whenever God ran a nation, He instituted the death penalty, so it's pretty clear that He is not opposed to it. Also, the "sin unto death" is another clear example that God is not opposed to capital punishment.

[bdfwinn]

The fact that we are saved does not give us a pass to commit murder AND avoid the physical or social consequences. The murder will not affect our salvation but where did Jesus say all our physical penalties are suspended too? Does not gravity still pull on your pants; thereby necessitating a belt?

Just so; the sin of the murders was forgiven long ago the physical penalties are yet ours to recon with.

Bill

[Jason]

I have personally spent many months with a woman who killed her own children. Here's her story ...

John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

On March 20th, 1998, Kelly Blake asked her three children if they wanted to play a game. She then blindfolded them, led them into a small shed, poured gasoline on them and ignited the room. Nine-year-old Venessa died in the shed. Twelve-year-old Ray died later in the hospital. Fourteen-year-old John was able to escape the shed quickly and only received superficial burns. Kelly suffered third-degree burns over 90 percent of her body and was put in a medically induced coma.

When I first heard about Kelly, I thought, "How could a mother do this to her children?" That was a question many in Phoenix asked when they heard about Kelly killing two of her children. A great number of people felt Kelly deserved to die. As the doctors observed Kelly in her comatose state, they thought that people would get their wish because they didn't expect Kelly to live much longer.

But Kelly did live. After coming out of the coma, she was later transferred to Bryans Extended Care Center. When she could get around in a wheelchair, Kelly started taking computer lessons in the recreation therapy room. Her computer teacher was a young man in an electric wheelchair named Jason Mitchener. I had wondered how a mother could kill her children, and now I was teaching that same woman how to use a computer.

My prayer to God at that time was something like, "God, I know you love everyone, including Kelly. But it's so hard for me to love her. I know she needs to experience Your love, so please let Your love flow through me."

Over the next couple years, God answered my prayer by allowing me to disciple Kelly through friendship and twice-weekly Bible studies that I led. As I got to know Kelly, she shared her heart more and more with me. Rather than having a hating heart as so many thought, she had a hurting heart. Kelly, like everyone else, wondered how she could kill her own children. She weeped knowing that her own hands had ended the lives of her beautiful children.

A judge found Kelly guilty-but-insane of seven felonies, including two counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. She was sentenced to life in the state mental hospital.

Many still want to judge Kelly. Some think she deserves the death penalty. I'm thankful that the judge in her case didn't judge by appearance, but had righteous judgment. I'm even more thankful that God the Supreme Judge knows that Kelly has repented of her sins and wants to serve Him for the rest of her life.

[bdfwinn]

I have personally spent many months with a woman who killed her own children. Here's her story ...

John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

On March 20th, 1998, Kelly Blake asked her three children if they wanted to play a game. She then blindfolded them, led them into a small shed, poured gasoline on them and ignited the room. Nine-year-old Venessa died in the shed. Twelve-year-old Ray died later in the hospital. Fourteen-year-old John was able to escape the shed quickly and only received superficial burns. Kelly suffered third-degree burns over 90 percent of her body and was put in a medically induced coma.

When I first heard about Kelly, I thought, "How could a mother do this to her children?" That was a question many in Phoenix asked when they heard about Kelly killing two of her children. A great number of people felt Kelly deserved to die. As the doctors observed Kelly in her comatose state, they thought that people would get their wish because they didn't expect Kelly to live much longer.

But Kelly did live. After coming out of the coma, she was later transferred to Bryans Extended Care Center. When she could get around in a wheelchair, Kelly started taking computer lessons in the recreation therapy room. Her computer teacher was a young man in an electric wheelchair named Jason Mitchener. I had wondered how a mother could kill her children, and now I was teaching that same woman how to use a computer.

My prayer to God at that time was something like, "God, I know you love everyone, including Kelly. But it's so hard for me to love her. I know she needs to experience Your love, so please let Your love flow through me."

Over the next couple years, God answered my prayer by allowing me to disciple Kelly through friendship and twice-weekly Bible studies that I led. As I got to know Kelly, she shared her heart more and more with me. Rather than having a hating heart as so many thought, she had a hurting heart. Kelly, like everyone else, wondered how she could kill her own children. She weeped knowing that her own hands had ended the lives of her beautiful children.

A judge found Kelly guilty-but-insane of seven felonies, including two counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. She was sentenced to life in the state mental hospital.

Many still want to judge Kelly. Some think she deserves the death penalty. I'm thankful that the judge in her case didn't judge by appearance, but had righteous judgment. I'm even more thankful that God the Supreme Judge knows that Kelly has repented of her sins and wants to serve Him for the rest of her life.


That is awesome Jason that you got to lead her out of darkness and that you could disciple her. But Ted Bundy became a Christian in prison and although (even before he was born) Ted's sins were forgiven and, after he accepted Jesus, participated in the Trinitarian life with God he still had to pay the physical penalty for his crimes.

Bill

[Jason]

That is awesome Jason that you got to lead her out of darkness and that you could disciple her. But Ted Bundy became a Christian in prison and although (even before he was born) Ted's sins were forgiven and, after he accepted Jesus, participated in the Trinitarian life with God he still had to pay the physical penalty for his crimes.

Bill

And Kelly is paying three penalties:
1. Life in a mental institution
2. The loss of two of her children
3. Her oldest child hating her

[SonflowerGurl]

After reading these replies it really saddens me that so few understand true mental illness...I'm not talking people try to comp an insanity plea when they are just evil (btw, those kinds of pleas rarely work)

Mental illness is a very complex medical condition that does not allow someone to perceive reality correctly. Delusions are not something the person chooses to think or a moral shortcoming but a real condition that unfortunately in the case of Andrea Yates is truly tragic ....yes, we all wish someone intervened but no one did...not her doctors, not her friends, not her family...do I blame them? No. I'm sure they did the best they knew how to in a very difficult situation.

Now for the person that felt she should be executed ...would you be so harsh if let say you or maybe your wife was in the car with kids ....maybe without enough sleep but you still thought you could make it to your destination. Unfortunately you fall asleep at the wheel and wreck killing your 4 kids....should you be executed? After all you knew you were tired and you put your kids in danger...at least you had your mental faculties working...unless you have a sleep disorder and that would open a whole new can of worms.

My point is: there are tragic things that happen and yes, even when tragic things happen there are consquences but motivation and intent go a long way in judging this situation.

[Jake]

I'm thinking of posting my thoughts on this...but I know I will be flamed for what I think.

[Aaron]

Insane? More like possesed.
Anybody who does something like that is.

[ruepickle]

i probably shouldn't have read this thread, but i did, and ti's too late now.

i have suffered from delusions in which i believed i should do something harmful because "god" wanted me to.

this is a disease. does it make what she did right? no, but it puts her in the right place, a mental institution, instead of in prision.

[KarenAlexa]

My point is that becoming that wacked out does not happen overnight. If it was truly insanity, surely there had to have been some signs leading up to it. How come her husband didn't notice his wife was a wackjob and have her put away before she killed anyone? Or her friends? Or her acquaintences? Anybody who knew her? I know. Because she wasn't/isn't insane. If she was insane, how come no one knew about it until after she killed her 5 children?
It sounds like a copout to me.


Not that I'm speaking of this case in particular, but you've clearly never heard of post-partum depression or had any close experience with mental illness. Many women become seriously screwed up after giving birth, and it's not their fault. And yes, it happens "almost overnight" and her complaints and symptoms and signs are easily dimissed by everyone as "oh shes just a new mother" "shes stressed out" "shell get the hang of it" "this is perfectly normal, it'll pass." But for some women, it doesn't just pass.

As someone with extensive expereince with depression, psychiatric medications, and the mistakes your own brain can easily make -- I fear having children for this very reason. But at least I have some kind of knowledge -- sadly, many don't and they don't seek the help they need.

*note: I'm not talking about this case -- just responding to this comment. I've known women who have gone through post partum and I wish there was more knowledge about it. Some women don't just work through it on their own and their complaints are dismissed by themselves and others as "normal." I'm saying this so that someone out there might hear it and if you marry a woman who turns up to have this problem, you'll have SOME knowledge about it. It's not some permanant state -- treat it like the illness it is and then live a long and happy life. If Yates had been treated early on, she wouldn't have continued down the path of delusions and metal illness. This could have been prevented -- easily.

[Pouye]

I hope she gets "life" in a mental institution, with no chance of release. She is obviously a danger to society.

If she was a Jew in the Old Testament times, she would have been killed, no questions asked by God's command. I know that doesn't apply in this case (because she is not a Jew and not in Old Testament times), but it does show that capital punishment for such murderous crimes are not inherently wrong.

In my opinion, lethal injection would have been more humane (much more humane than how her children were killed... and their blood cries out!). I've spent time in mental institutions (not for myself, of course), because a close friend of mine had a brother who became insane. I cannot think of a harder life to live than in such a place. Oh, the staff do what they can (mostly their best) to make the occupants comfortable... but the whole place can easily errupt into a riot that makes the zoo look tame. I watched as staff tackled a man and injected him before he could attack another "inmate" (what do you call them, anyways?). Scary place. I've often wondered how many of them are demon possessed as compared to how many are simply chemically imbalanced or have some other truly physical problem that isn't spiritually related.

Either way, I think if folks on this forum think she should have been killed or put in a mental institution for life, I don't think either side is particularly wrong. The court found her insane, and in our country, the court usually will rule out the death penalty for someone who is truly mentally disturbed.

What's done is done,

Rock

[KarenAlexa]

As far as signs go: Read this article from Time:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,218445,00.html

"After the birth of their fourth child, Luke, in 1999, Andrea tried twice to commit suicide. She was hospitalized both times and was diagnosed with postpartum depression and psychosis.

"She recovered while using Haldol, but eventually stopped taking the medication. Against the advice of her psychiatrist, Andrea soon became pregnant again with their fifth child, Mary. Within months, following the death of her ailing father, her psychosis returned. Instead of taking her back to the same doctor who'd treated her before, Rusty told jurors that he and Andrea went to the Devereux-Texas Treatment Network, where Mohammed Saeed became Andrea's psychiatrist. Rusty testified that he never knew that Andrea had visions and voices; he said he never knew she had considered killing the children. Neither did Dr. Saeed, even though the delusions could have been found in medical records from 1999. Andrea would not talk or eat.

"After only slight improvement, Andrea was released from Devereux. A month later, she had another episode. Rusty took her back to Devereux. Again, she was released. Dr. Saeed reluctantly prescribed Haldol, the same drug that worked in a drug cocktail for her in 1999. But after a few weeks, he took her off the drug. [...] Though Andrea's condition seemed to be worsening two days before the drownings, when her husband drove her to Saeed's office, Rusty testified, the doctor refused to try Haldol longer or return her to the hospital."

I leave the punishment and such up to the law -- I'm thankful I do not have to make these decisions.

Though I wish there would be a punishment for that psychiatrist. He took her off a anti-psychotic drug -- which meant not only was she psychotic -- but now having withdraws from the medication as well -- and he claimed ignorance to her delusions -- though they were clearly documented in her record -- then he refused to admit her to the hospital when she and her husband came to him 2 days before the incident because she was only getting worse. Yates and her husband clearly sought help continuously and were let down by this doctor yet he gets not punishment?

[Musicdude]

Not that I'm speaking of this case in particular, but you've clearly never heard of post-partum depression or had any close experience with mental illness. Many women become seriously screwed up after giving birth, and it's not their fault. And yes, it happens "almost overnight" and her complaints and symptoms and signs are easily dimissed by everyone as "oh shes just a new mother" "shes stressed out" "shell get the hang of it" "this is perfectly normal, it'll pass." But for some women, it doesn't just pass.

As someone with extensive expereince with depression, psychiatric medications, and the mistakes your own brain can easily make -- I fear having children for this very reason. But at least I have some kind of knowledge -- sadly, many don't and they don't seek the help they need.

*note: I'm not talking about this case -- just responding to this comment. I've known women who have gone through post partum and I wish there was more knowledge about it. Some women don't just work through it on their own and their complaints are dismissed by themselves and others as "normal." I'm saying this so that someone out there might hear it and if you marry a woman who turns up to have this problem, you'll have SOME knowledge about it. It's not some permanant state -- treat it like the illness it is and then live a long and happy life. If Yates had been treated early on, she wouldn't have continued down the path of delusions and metal illness. This could have been prevented -- easily.

How many women experience post-partum depression? And how many of those women end up murdering anyone? My point is, you don't have to give into it to the point it consumes and controls you. I know this because most women don't give into it.

[cheewiee]

How many women experience post-partum depression? And how many of those women end up murdering anyone? My point is, you don't have to give into it to the point it consumes and controls you. I know this because most women don't give into it.

When you couple her Post-partum depression with the nut-job of a minister she was following you begin to see how in her delusional mind she came to make the decision she made...

First, Post-Partum depression can prevent a bond from occuring between mother and child, creating sever feelings of inadiquacy in the mother. In the case of Brooke Shields she several times considered killing her child.

Couple those intense feelings of failure with a Pastor who tells you that because of your failures as a Parent, your kids will be doomed to hell...

Then you will begin to see what made this woman the whackjob she is...

[Musicdude]

When you couple her Post-partum depression with the nut-job of a minister she was following you begin to see how in her delusional mind she came to make the decision she made...

First, Post-Partum depression can prevent a bond from occuring between mother and child, creating sever feelings of inadiquacy in the mother. In the case of Brooke Shields she several times considered killing her child.

I know several parents who don't just think their kids hate them, they know it (and they are right.) And they do feel inadequate because of this. But they don't blame the children, and they definitely don't want to kill them. Just because a Hollywood actress does this, that makes it normal? Since when has Hollywood been the standard for what is normal?

Couple those intense feelings of failure with a Pastor who tells you that because of your failures as a Parent, your kids will be doomed to hell...

Then you will begin to see what made this woman the whackjob she is...

Who forced her to go to the nutjob pastor?

I'm sorry but she is responsible for her own decisions. That's like blaming Satan when we sin. Satan doesn't make us sin. He only tempts us, then we make the choice.

[cheewiee]

I know several parents who don't just think their kids hate them, they know it (and they are right.) And they do feel inadequate because of this. But they don't blame the children, and they definitely don't want to kill them. Just because a Hollywood actress does this, that makes it normal? Since when has Hollywood been the standard for what is normal?

Who forced her to go to the nutjob pastor?

I'm sorry but she is responsible for her own decisions. That's like blaming Satan when we sin. Satan doesn't make us sin. He only tempts us, then we make the choice.

I am going to have to chalk up your opinion to an ingnorance of mental illness and have to agree to disagree....

[Musicdude]

I am going to have to chalk up your opinion to an ingnorance of mental illness and have to agree to disagree....

I believe this is a spiritual problem, not a mental one. Reversionism can drive you to do some very perverse, evil things. But Your right, we will have to just agree to disagree.

[SonflowerGurl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicdude
I know several parents who don't just think their kids hate them, they know it (and they are right.) And they do feel inadequate because of this. But they don't blame the children, and they definitely don't want to kill them. Just because a Hollywood actress does this, that makes it normal? Since when has Hollywood been the standard for what is normal?

Who forced her to go to the nutjob pastor?

I'm sorry but she is responsible for her own decisions. That's like blaming Satan when we sin. Satan doesn't make us sin. He only tempts us, then we make the choice.

I am going to have to chalk up your opinion to an ingnorance of mental illness and have to agree to disagree....

As someone who only by the grace of God could have been in the same situation as Andrea Yate's children, I totally agree with Cheewiee's comment...my view is based on experience not opinion.

[Musicdude]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicdude
I know several parents who don't just think their kids hate them, they know it (and they are right.) And they do feel inadequate because of this. But they don't blame the children, and they definitely don't want to kill them. Just because a Hollywood actress does this, that makes it normal? Since when has Hollywood been the standard for what is normal?

Who forced her to go to the nutjob pastor?

I'm sorry but she is responsible for her own decisions. That's like blaming Satan when we sin. Satan doesn't make us sin. He only tempts us, then we make the choice.


As someone who only by the grace of God could have been in the same situation as Andrea Yate's children, I totally agree with Cheewiee's comment...my view is based on experience not opinion.

Mine is based on experience as well. Not first-hand, but second-hand. I personally know several women who have dealt with that. I think all women deal with it to some extent. (All women who have children, that is.)

[SonflowerGurl]

Mine is based on experience as well. Not first-hand, but second-hand. I personally know several women who have dealt with that. I think all women deal with it to some extent. (All women who have children, that is.)

Post-partum falls under the catagory of mental illness but does not cover all mental illnesses. I think it's safe to say Andrea had BOTH post-partum depression and other serious mental illness going on...

And for the record...not only do I have experience with my mother having serious mental illness but I have "first hand" experience with post-partum depression when I had a miscarriage several years ago. So keep on preaching "Tom Cruise". ;)

[Musicdude]

Post-partum falls under the catagory of mental illness but does not cover all mental illnesses. I think it's safe to say Andrea had BOTH post-partum depression and other serious mental illness going on...

And for the record...not only do I have experience with my mother having serious mental illness but I have "first hand" experience with post-partum depression when I had a miscarriage several years ago. So keep on preaching "Tom Cruise". ;)

No one knows whether she had post-partum depression besides her and God. And of course shes gonna say that to defend her actions. I'm just saying, we don't know. And even if she did, I do not believe that excuses murdering five children. Nothing excuses that. If someone held a gun to her head and told her if she didn't kill her children then they would kill her, that still wouldn't be an excuse.

I'll drop it now.

[SonflowerGurl]

Actually it isn't a bad thing this subject is getting discussed because it is so often misunderstood. Unless you have personally dealt with it yourself or a loved one....you really don't know.

Those who have dealt with it need to be open to educating those who do not understand.

[Musicdude]

Actually it isn't a bad thing this subject is getting discussed because it is so often misunderstood. Unless you have personally dealt with it yourself or a loved one....you really don't know.

Those who have dealt with it need to be open to educating those who do not understand.

Are you really going to try to tell me that any form of depression is an excuse for killing children (or killing anyone for that matter) ?
Me knowing or not knowing the details of this particular mental illness is not going to change my outlook.

There is no legitimate excuse for killing your own children. Period.

Depression can be dealt with. The best way to deal with it is growing spiritually. But even if you are an unbeliever, there are ways to deal with it that don't involve brutally murdering anyone. What she did was not impulsive. It was premeditated murder. It was not a quick decision. She had to make a continual decision over and over again, because drowning is not a quick way to die. She had to look her children in the eyes as she killed them. There is no punishment too great for that sort of souless evil. Public execution sends a clear message to the entire nation that this sort of behavior absolutely will not be tolerated, and there is no excuse for it. And where it is instituted, it works. God ordained it in His law in the old testament, because it works. It wasn't punishment for sin. Christ took all punishment for all sins. It was a crime prevention tool. It kept that person from perpetrating that sort of crime again, and it seriously discouraged others from doing the same.

Ok, now I'll drop it.

[KarenAlexa]

Yates didn't just have Postpartum depression -- she had postpartum PSYCOSIS -- very different. She was psychotic. She was just put on over 400mg Effexor (anti depressant, normal does starts at 37mg) and abruptly stopped Hadol (anti psychotic). She would have been having major withdrawals in addition to her illnesses. She also went to the hospital TWO DAYS before this happened and her psychiatrist wouldn't give her the antipsychotocis she needed and he wouldn't admit her to the hospital either. This woman has lots of mental imbalances and TRIED to get help -- the people who should have helped her let her down.

She hasn't gotten off from these charges. Her illness is not an excuse -- she will be punished. Her life will be spent in a mental institution which is NOT a vacation.

She DID try to resist it -- she DID try to get help -- she DID tell people.

[Healing Oil]

I think spending the rest of your life in a white padded room is punishment. When she realizes, which she probably already has, what she has done then she will have to see the faces of each of those babies everyday. Should she be in prison? I dont know, I really dont.

I find myself blaming much of this on her husband. Simply because he admitted that his wife had mental problems yet he still left his children alone with her. I cant imagine his guilt.

I am torn on this topic. I do think she should be punished, but Im not sure if I agree with prison as a punishment. I would settle for life in a mental institution.

[SonflowerGurl]

Yates didn't just have Postpartum depression -- she had postpartum PSYCOSIS -- very different. She was psychotic. She was just put on over 400mg Effexor (anti depressant, normal does starts at 37mg) and abruptly stopped Hadol (anti psychotic). She would have been having major withdrawals in addition to her illnesses. She also went to the hospital TWO DAYS before this happened and her psychiatrist wouldn't give her the antipsychotocis she needed and he wouldn't admit her to the hospital either. This woman has lots of mental imbalances and TRIED to get help -- the people who should have helped her let her down.

She hasn't gotten off from these charges. Her illness is not an excuse -- she will be punished. Her life will be spent in a mental institution which is NOT a vacation.

She DID try to resist it -- she DID try to get help -- she DID tell people.

Knowing those facts, yeah the doctor should have faced malpractice charges....

I find myself blaming much of this on her husband. Simply because he admitted that his wife had mental problems yet he still left his children alone with her. I cant imagine his guilt.

He probably does bear some of the blame which I'm sure he has to live with everyday.....but again I until you've been put a similiar situation I find it unwise to throw stones...I'm sure he did the best he knew how to in a VERY difficult situation.

I am torn on this topic. I do think she should be punished, but Im not sure if I agree with prison as a punishment. I would settle for life in a mental institution.

The entire situation saddens me as there is no good answer to a tragedy like this one. Yes, Andrea needs mental supervision the rest of her life....she's proven she IS and CAN BE a danger to herself and others. With the disease she has ...trust me she in not getting off...

[TX3DFan]

Actually it isn't a bad thing this subject is getting discussed because it is so often misunderstood. Unless you have personally dealt with it yourself or a loved one....you really don't know.

Those who have dealt with it need to be open to educating those who do not understand.

I'm actually really sick and tired of this claim. I don't care if I don't know anything about these mental issues, there is nothing that excuses methodically killing all five of your children, especially when you have to chase down your oldest child and force him into the tub. I don't care if she was suffering from every form of mental illness known to man, it's no excuse. It's especially no reason for escaping punishment for her crime.

One question I have is, what causes mental illness? I have a hard time believing that God created mental illnesses, especially one that would cause a mother to kill all 5 of her children.

In this case, justice was not served. Living in Houston, I have heard quite a bit more about this case than I'd care to. What sickens me, is that a jury of her peers convicted her to life in prison a few years back, but due to some testimony that was false by a psychiatrist (that had no bearing on the case, in my opinion) that case was thrown out. So now another jury of her peers found her not guilty by reason of insanity. This also does not mean she will be in a mental institution for the rest of her life. She will come up for yearly reviews and if she's found to not be a danger any longer, she's set free. And, in my opinion, while she's in the institution she isn't doing much suffering either since she'll be so doped up on medication, she'll just be in a semi-conscious state. I can see her being released in the next 5 years.

The DA of Harris County can still charge her for the deaths of 2 children, since this case only dealt with 3 of them. I'll be interested to see what happens, especially since it's been a draw between what two juries decided.

[cheewiee]

....but due to some testimony that was false by a psychiatrist (that had no bearing on the case, in my opinion) that case was thrown out. So now another jury of her peers found her not guilty by reason of insanity.....

The previous conviction was thrown out, because the Prosecuter made the claim in either his opening or closing (i think it was closing) that this situation happened on Law and Order... That is the mother killed kids knowing what she was doing, and got off claiming mental insanity, suggesting that this is where Yates got this idea from...

Which does have bearing on the case, quite frankly...

It was the idiot DA that said this... So if you really belive that this is a miscarrage of justice you should blame him... Prosecutions don't have the luxury of planting these kinds of seeds into the minds of the jury.... They should stick to the facts of the case... (Something that should have been learned by all DA's after the OJ Simpson tiral...

[TX3DFan]

The previous conviction was thrown out, because the Prosecuter made the claim in either his opening or closing (i think it was closing) that this situation happened on Law and Order... That is the mother killed kids knowing what she was doing, and got off claiming mental insanity, suggesting that this is where Yates got this idea from...

Which does have bearing on the case, quite frankly...



Please check your facts before responding, thanks.


Andrea Yates' conviction thrown out

By RUTH RENDON

Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The 1st Texas Court of Appeals threw out today the capital murder conviction of Clear Lake mom Andrea Yates, who's been serving a life sentence for drowning her children in a bathtub.


In ordering a new trial, the three-member appeals court cited false testimony by the state’s expert psychiatric witness, who said Yates had patterned her actions after a Law & Order television episode in which a woman drowned her children and was found innocent by reason of insanity. It turned out there was no such episode, and the appellate court said the trial judge erred in not granting a mistrial once it was learned Dr. Park Dietz's testimony was untrue.

[Sam!]

A whole other can of worms but: is causing others to suffer the point of our Justice system?

[cheewiee]

Please check your facts before responding, thanks.

Ok so I was wrong about the Prosecuter... but still... The claim was made that such an episode existed, and that, that is where she probibly got the idea to kill her children from...

Said episode didn't exist and since it was part of the states case, it desirved to be reexamined...

[Musicdude]

A whole other can of worms but: is causing others to suffer the point of our Justice system?

When it needs to be, yes.
If you think about comitting a certain crime and you know that you will be killed if they catch you, it is quite discouraging. On the other hand, if you know the worst thing that will happen is being stuck in a prison or mental institution, that's not near as discouraging.

Discouraging criminals is definitely a part of our justice system.
Crime prevention is very important, especially to the ones who's lives are saved by it.

[Healing Oil]

Sonflowergirl- I never said she was getting off.

And honestly, I do not think it was that difficult of a situation. It is all really quite simple. If you know that your husband is mentally insane and incapable of distinguishing between reality, would you leave your 5 toddler children alone with him? Is it really that difficult of a decision? I may not "really know" or "understand", but I dont think it matters either way. A woman killed her babies one by one. It is hard for me to understand how someone (even with a mental disorder) could not snap out of it after the first drowning, let alone the second, third and fourth...

It is a sad situation and I pray she is locked away for the rest of her life. Whether in a hospital or a prison. Not only for the sake of society, but for herself as well. This isnt said with malice. She needs supervision for the remainder of her life.

[SonflowerGurl]

I'm actually really sick and tired of this claim. I don't care if I don't know anything about these mental issues, there is nothing that excuses methodically killing all five of your children, especially when you have to chase down your oldest child and force him into the tub. I don't care if she was suffering from every form of mental illness known to man, it's no excuse. It's especially no reason for escaping punishment for her crime. .

With upmost respect for your opinion ...you are wrong. I'm only someone posting on a board and I can understand your skepticism but what I'm telling you is the truth and anyone, professional or someone who has had true experience dealing with someone with mental illness will tell you the same thing I did.

One question I have is, what causes mental illness? I have a hard time believing that God created mental illnesses, especially one that would cause a mother to kill all 5 of her children. .

Why does God allow suffering? Why does a child die of cancer? Why does a child die at the hands of a mentally pyschotic mother? We lived in a fallen world where many things exist that shouldn't ...


In this case, justice was not served. Living in Houston, I have heard quite a bit more about this case than I'd care to. What sickens me, is that a jury of her peers convicted her to life in prison a few years back, but due to some testimony that was false by a psychiatrist (that had no bearing on the case, in my opinion) that case was thrown out. So now another jury of her peers found her not guilty by reason of insanity. This also does not mean she will be in a mental institution for the rest of her life. She will come up for yearly reviews and if she's found to not be a danger any longer, she's set free. And, in my opinion, while she's in the institution she isn't doing much suffering either since she'll be so doped up on medication, she'll just be in a semi-conscious state. I can see her being released in the next 5 years.

Funny thing with my experience dealing with others with mental illness the day the story came out in the news based on the facts given it was obvious this was a severely mentally ill person who did this horrible thing. When the first jury found her "guilty" I was totally upset with uneducated judgement being made and it was obvious it was more about "pleasing the mob" than doing the right thing. Obviously those who do know more about these things were working in the background to correct this miscarriage of justice. This is about as clear a case for "Not guilty by reason of insanity" there is ...if you have a problem with Andrea receiving this judgement it's the law you have a problem with not the verdict.

The DA of Harris County can still charge her for the deaths of 2 children, since this case only dealt with 3 of them. I'll be interested to see what happens, especially since it's been a draw between what two juries decided.

Exactly what would change the circumstances surrounding this case? Since with medication she is no longer in psychotic...does that make her not psychotic the day this horrible tradegy happened? I think you may be mistaking the difference between someone who is a criminal who happens to also be insane with someone who did something criminal only because they were in a psychotic state. It is safe to say Andrea Yates would have never harm anyone without the psychosis.

[SonflowerGurl]

Sonflowergirl- I never said she was getting off.

And honestly, I do not think it was that difficult of a situation. It is all really quite simple. If you know that your husband is mentally insane and incapable of distinguishing between reality, would you leave your 5 toddler children alone with him? Is it really that difficult of a decision? I may not "really know" or "understand", but I dont think it matters either way. A woman killed her babies one by one. It is hard for me to understand how someone (even with a mental disorder) could not snap out of it after the first drowning, let alone the second, third and fourth...

It is a sad situation and I pray she is locked away for the rest of her life. Whether in a hospital or a prison. Not only for the sake of society, but for herself as well. This isnt said with malice. She needs supervision for the remainder of her life.

Healing Oil,

I didn't take you comments in a negative way at all ...Andrea Yates is not getting off...her sickness is terrible in itself, although I've never been "in" a mental institution I have visited them...they are not somewhere you want to spend time if you have a choice and probably the worst punishment of all for her is that when treated she is very aware of the situation...I guarantee she probably grieves those children as you can't imagine.

As for the husband, I understood what you meant but until you've dealt with this kind of situation and the helplessness you are put into ....while still trying to be a father, a provider and a husband/caregiver ....you really don't know what you'd do...Yes, I think he probably made some unwise decisions and yes, it certainly contributed to the events playing out...but he didn't kill those children.

[Musicdude]

With upmost respect for your opinion ...you are wrong.

Opinions can't be wrong. ;)

And it is my opinion that there is no excuse for murdering your children. Like I said before, even if someone was holding a gun to her head and telling her that they will kill her if she doesn't kill her children, that is still not an excuse. That is why I really think she was posessed when she did this. I don't think any mental illness exists that can overcome maternal instinct to the point that a mother could kill her children, especially to kill them slowly like that.

Think about this. Someone said earlier that typically she wasn't left alone with her children because they knew it was dangerous. And the only reason she was left alone with them is because they were trying to make her less dependent on her husband, so he occaissionaly left her for an hour at a time. Well, if he was only gone an hour, she barely had time to do what she did. She would've had to start the moment he was gone. Which means she planned this. She was waiting for him to leave so she could kill them.

And if I ever come to a point where if I miss a dose of medication I become a souless brutal murderer of children, I beg you to end my life. At the very least, please put my children in a foster home. So why were her children left in her custody anyway? I mean if it was common knowledge what a psycho she was, why was no one thinking of the safety of the children?

[cheewiee]

Opinions can't be wrong. ;)

hmmmm...

what about those folks who are of the opinion that God doesn't exist....

[Musicdude]

hmmmm...

what about those folks who are of the opinion that God doesn't exist....

That is not an opinion. That is a fact. An incorrect fact, of course. But a fact, nonetheless.

An opinion would be, I think the death penalty is a good idea.
Others might say that it is a bad idea.

The only way we can determine if it is really a good idea or bad is to consult the only source of absolute truth, the word of God.
But if you don't believe the word of God, that doesn't really carry much weight with you, and there really is no absolute truth in the world.

[cheewiee]

That is not an opinion. That is a fact. An incorrect fact, of course. But a fact, nonetheless.

An opinion would be, I think the death penalty is a good idea.
Others might say that it is a bad idea.

The only way we can determine if it is really a good idea or bad is to consult the only source of absolute truth, the word of God.
But if you don't believe the word of God, that doesn't really carry much weight with you, and there really is no absolute truth in the world.

It isn't a fact..

A fact by definition is something that can be proven, or disproven... And the very nature of God can't be proven by means of human reasoning...

[Musicdude]

It isn't a fact..

A fact by definition is something that can be proven, or disproven... And the very nature of God can't be proven by means of human reasoning...

So with regard to faith, where do you draw the line between opinion and fact?

[cheewiee]

So with regard to faith, where do you draw the line between opinion and fact?

Faith has nothing to do with what the word opinion means...

A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).

God Exists...

While I hold to that statement with my whole being and faith as being true, it is not something that I can substantiate because of God's very nature as creator of the Universe we live in...

So by the strictest definition of the word "Opinion", the Statement, There is A God, is an opinion and not a fact...

[Musicdude]

Faith has nothing to do with what the word opinion means...



God Exists...

While I hold to that statement with my whole being and faith as being true, it is not something that I can substantiate because of God's very nature as creator of the Universe we live in...

So by the strictest definition of the word "Opinion", the Statement, There is A God, is an opinion and not a fact...

Only with reference to unbelievers. I personally can and have proven to myself that God exists. I can prove it to others, but they must believe me. I can tell them all the times throughout my life when I've trusted God and He delivered me through trials. The times I asked Him for His guidance and He gave it to me. All of these experiences prove God to me. But someone else might write it off to coincidence, if they even believe I am telling the truth at all. So, to me it is a fact. But to them, the idea that there is no God is a fact. How do you prove the lack of something? How could you prove something doesn't exist? You can't. And I don't just mean God, but anything. So there is really a lot more proof that God does exist, and really none that He doesn't. But how much proof does it take for an opinion to become a fact? When the majority of the population is convinced that it is true? Well, even then that is still their opinions. So is fact really just the opinion of the majority? If so, then facts are not definite terms, but change depending on society.

That's why truth and fact are not the same thing.
Truth is absolute, and defined by God. Fact is just the majority opinion of a society.

(Wow, what a rabbit trail. :D )

[cheewiee]

Only with reference to unbelievers. I personally can and have proven to myself that God exists. I can prove it to others, but they must believe me. I can tell them all the times throughout my life when I've trusted God and He delivered me through trials. The times I asked Him for His guidance and He gave it to me. All of these experiences prove God to me. But someone else might write it off to coincidence, if they even believe I am telling the truth at all. So, to me it is a fact. But to them, the idea that there is no God is a fact. How do you prove the lack of something? How could you prove something doesn't exist? You can't. And I don't just mean God, but anything. So there is really a lot more proof that God does exist, and really none that He doesn't. But how much proof does it take for an opinion to become a fact? When the majority of the population is convinced that it is true? Well, even then that is still their opinions. So is fact really just the opinion of the majority? If so, then facts are not definite terms, but change depending on society.

That's why truth and fact are not the same thing.
Truth is absolute, and defined by God. Fact is just the majority opinion of a society.

A fact is a statement that is provable.. It has nothing to do with the majority of opinion...

If I say,

I have a Honda Civic

It is something that can be proven either true or false... You can do a record search... pull up county and state records...

Now If I say..

Honda Civic's are the best cars in the world..

While this statement can be true, it isn't something that can be proven..

Another example is Evolution...

Evolution isn't a fact, it is an opinion, because there lacks the evidence to make it a fact...

[Musicdude]

A fact is a statement that is provable.. It has nothing to do with the majority of opinion...

If I say,

I have a Honda Civic

It is something that can be proven either true or false... You can do a record search... pull up county and state records...

Now If I say..

Honda Civic's are the best cars in the world..

While this statement can be true, it isn't something that can be proven..

Another example is Evolution...

Evolution isn't a fact, it is an opinion, because there lacks the evidence to make it a fact...

Not everything is as easy to categorize as those two.

Much of fact is based on perception.
If I say I drive a red Accord, someone who doesn't see colors the same as I do might say it is yellow (color blind.) To him it is yellow. So is it any less a fact, just because he percieves the color differently than I do?

[cheewiee]

Not everything is as easy to categorize as those two.

Much of fact is based on perception.
If I say I drive a red Accord, someone who doesn't see colors the same as I do might say it is yellow (color blind.) To him it is yellow. So is it any less a fact, just because he percieves the color differently than I do?

His inability to not see red doesn't change the fact that your car is Red...

[Musicdude]

His inability to not see red doesn't change the fact that your car is Red...

But why is red a fact? Because you and I agree that the car is red? How many people have to agree on it before it becomes a fact? See my point? Many times facts are based on people's perception of reality. One form of human perception is impericism (what we see, taste, feel, hear and smell.) But faith is another form of perception, what we believe. My perception of the world is very different from someone who does not believe the bible. It changes everything. And faith can be (should be) more real to you than what you see, hear, feel, taste and smell. So reality is not only defined by impericism and rationalism, but also by faith. And even unbelievers in Christ still have faith in other things. Some have faith in humanity, others in nature, other in themselves, others in destiny, others in science, others in many various man-made gods.

If he sees yellow, and you tell him that really it is red, but his eyes are abnormal. He may believe you or he may not. You are telling him something that contradicts what his eyes are telling him. You can accept that the car is red by sight. But he must accept it by faith. So what is fact for one person is not necessarily fact for another person. Fact is determined by impericism, rationalism and faith combined. And since those three forms of perception vary from one person to another, their definition of facts also varies. But there are many things which the majority of the world is agreed upon, and those things are usually referred to as fact. But they are not facts for everyone. I know many unbelievers and believers who say that the theory evolution is a fact. It hasn't been proven to me, but it's been proven to them. Proof to one person is not proof to another. When something is proven, all that means is there is enough evidence to convince this particular person. But it may take much more evidence to convince another. Facts are fluid. Truth is not. God is truth.

In the essence of not derailing this thread any further, I'm going to drop it now.

[cheewiee]

But why is red a fact? Because you and I agree that the car is red? How many people have to agree on it before it becomes a fact? See my point? Many times facts are based on people's perception of reality. One form of human perception is impericism (what we see, taste, feel, hear and smell.) But faith is another form of perception, what we believe. My perception of the world is very different from someone who does not believe the bible. It changes everything. And faith can be (should be) more real to you than what you see, hear, feel, taste and smell. So reality is not only defined by impericism and rationalism, but also by faith. And even unbelievers in Christ still have faith in other things. Some have faith in humanity, others in nature, other in themselves, others in destiny, others in science, others in many various man-made gods.

If he sees yellow, and you tell him that really it is red, but his eyes are abnormal. He may believe you or he may not. You are telling him something that contradicts what his eyes are telling him. You can accept that the car is red by sight. But he must accept it by faith. So what is fact for one person is not necessarily fact for another person. Fact is determined by impericism, rationalism and faith combined. And since those three forms of perception vary from one person to another, their definition of facts also varies. But there are many things which the majority of the world is agreed upon, and those things are usually referred to as fact. But they are not facts for everyone. I know many unbelievers and believers who say that the theory evolution is a fact. It hasn't been proven to me, but it's been proven to them. Proof to one person is not proof to another. When something is proven, all that means is there is enough evidence to convince this particular person. But it may take much more evidence to convince another. Facts are fluid. Truth is not. God is truth.

In the essence of not derailing this thread any further, I'm going to drop it now.

All you have proven to me.. is that Your Car being red is a matter of your opinion and not a matter of fact...

A state of fact is something proveable or disproveable...

It is a fact that I own a Ford Ranger....

However that fact is false...

But it is provable...

Oppinions can be right and wrong, however they can not be proven..

In the essence of not derailing this thread any further, I'm going to drop it now.

Didn't you already say that before... Well lets see if you ment it...

[SonflowerGurl]

But why is red a fact? Because you and I agree that the car is red? How many people have to agree on it before it becomes a fact? See my point? Many times facts are based on people's perception of reality. One form of human perception is impericism (what we see, taste, feel, hear and smell.) But faith is another form of perception, what we believe. My perception of the world is very different from someone who does not believe the bible. It changes everything. And faith can be (should be) more real to you than what you see, hear, feel, taste and smell. So reality is not only defined by impericism and rationalism, but also by faith. And even unbelievers in Christ still have faith in other things. Some have faith in humanity, others in nature, other in themselves, others in destiny, others in science, others in many various man-made gods.

If he sees yellow, and you tell him that really it is red, but his eyes are abnormal. He may believe you or he may not. You are telling him something that contradicts what his eyes are telling him. You can accept that the car is red by sight. But he must accept it by faith. So what is fact for one person is not necessarily fact for another person. Fact is determined by impericism, rationalism and faith combined. And since those three forms of perception vary from one person to another, their definition of facts also varies. But there are many things which the majority of the world is agreed upon, and those things are usually referred to as fact. But they are not facts for everyone. I know many unbelievers and believers who say that the theory evolution is a fact. It hasn't been proven to me, but it's been proven to them. Proof to one person is not proof to another. When something is proven, all that means is there is enough evidence to convince this particular person. But it may take much more evidence to convince another. Facts are fluid. .

I find it quite ironic you use this example but cannot see someone who is clearly in a psychotic state could not perceive reality incorrectly... BTW is someone doesn't take it on faith that red is red instead of yellow the next time they attempt to make a "yellow" light at a stop light it's a good chance they may kill someone.

[Musicdude]

Didn't you already say that before... Well lets see if you ment it...

I didn't repost. I just added to this post.

[Musicdude]

I find it quite ironic you use this example but cannot see someone who is clearly in a psychotic state could not perceive reality incorrectly... BTW is someone doesn't take it on faith that red is red instead of yellow the next time they attempt to make a "yellow" light at a stop light it's a good chance they may kill someone.

Though moral facts are fluid to us, they are concrete to God. And God has made it clear that murder is sin. Just because she did not think it was wrong to kill her children, doesn't mean God did not. If you and I disagree on a fact, it is one thing. But if you and God disagree on a fact, you are wrong and He is right.

[SonflowerGurl]

I don't think anyone questions it was wrong for her to kill her kids...it's about how to handle justice. And yes, God will be the ultimate judge...not us. It's good to remember that we will be judged by the standard we use for others.

[Musicdude]

I don't think anyone questions it was wrong for her to kill her kids...it's about how to handle justice. And yes, God will be the ultimate judge...not us. It's good to remember that we will be judged by the standard we use for others.

How will those people be judged who were commanded by God to execute murderers (and several other types of criminals) in the OT? Will they be judged accordingly, even though they were obeying God?

[cheewiee]

Though moral facts are fluid to us, they are concrete to God. And God has made it clear that murder is sin. Just because she did not think it was wrong to kill her children, doesn't mean God did not. If you and I disagree on a fact, it is one thing. But if you and God disagree on a fact, you are wrong and He is right.

But God also makes it clear that we are to follow the laws of the land...

In this land it states that those who are deemed mentally incompitant cannot be held accountable for their crimes....

[Musicdude]

His inability to not see red doesn't change the fact that your car is Red...

Ok. You and I disagree on what a fact is, not the literal definition, but in a practical sense.

[Musicdude]

But God also makes it clear that we are to follow the laws of the land...

In this land it states that those who are deemed mentally incompitant cannot be held accountable for their crimes....

We are only to follow the laws of the land as long as they don't contradict God's laws. If by obeying any law you disobey God's law, then you are to ignore the law of the land in favor of God's law. As long as they don't overlap, you are to obey both. How many times in scripture do we see man's law mandating people to worship an idol? And what did they do? They disobeyed man's law, in favor of God's law. And God delivered them.

I'm not saying we should sneek into the mental facility and kill her.
If the law says she is mentally incompetent and they decide to put her in an institution instead of prison or death, then so be it. But I can determine whether or not that ruling lines up with scripture or not, just out of my own curiosity. If it doesn't, it's not like I'm advocating that we do anything about it, except maybe try and elect Christian representatives in the future. Does government act in accordance with the will of God? Not usually. Do I really expect them to? Of course not. Sure, it would be nice, but it's not going to happen (until Christ returns.)

[cheewiee]

We are only to follow the laws of the land as long as they don't contradict God's laws. If by obeying any law you disobey God's law, then you are to ignore the law of the land in favor of God's law. As long as they don't overlap, then you obey both.


In this case how does man's law disobey's Gods?

[Musicdude]

In this case how does man's law disobey's Gods?

I didn't say it did.
Obviously God's law would have had her executed. But we are not under a Theocracy anymore, so it doesn't matter. But it does give us an idea of how God would deal with it.

[TX3DFan]

With upmost respect for your opinion ...you are wrong. I'm only someone posting on a board and I can understand your skepticism but what I'm telling you is the truth and anyone, professional or someone who has had true experience dealing with someone with mental illness will tell you the same thing I did.


So I'm wrong for thinking that having a mental illness is not an acceptable excuse for methodically killing 5 children?? I guess I'll just have to be wrong then, 'cause I don't think God sees that as an acceptable excuse for the horrible murder of 5 children.

Thankfully, it appears that those with level heads are going to start working to eliminate the wording "not guilty by reason of insanity" from the Texas state laws. Their premise is that you should not be considered "not guilty", but it should be "guilty, but by reason of insanity". The change would then give the ability to sentence the insane person to life in institution instead of being allowed out after review. Insanity does not preclude guilt. One of the people starting work on this is a juror from this trial.

[cheewiee]

So I'm wrong for thinking that having a mental illness is not an acceptable excuse for methodically killing 5 children?? I guess I'll just have to be wrong then, 'cause I don't think God sees that as an acceptable excuse for the horrible murder of 5 children.

Thankfully, it appears that those with level heads are going to start working to eliminate the wording "not guilty by reason of insanity" from the Texas state laws. Their premise is that you should not be considered "not guilty", but it should be "guilty, but by reason of insanity". The change would then give the ability to sentence the insane person to life in institution instead of being allowed out after review. Insanity does not preclude guilt. One of the people starting work on this is a juror from this trial.

So what would you say about somone who exhibits a mental illness such as Multiple Personality Disorder...

One Minuite they are themselves, the next minuite another personality manifests itself outside the control of the "Host" personality....

Or what about Skytzophrenia.... an undiagnosed patient may very well be told by a "government official" that it is their sworn duty to protect the nation by killing somone...

In both of these instances it is a mental illness that not only interferes with the patients morality, but also in some cases eliminates it all together by having another personality carry out the crime...

Both of these illnesses are treatable and controllable.. Are you suggesting somone with multiple personality disorder be locked away for life because of a crime quite literally they did not commit?!??!

[Musicdude]

So what would you say about somone who exhibits a mental illness such as Multiple Personality Disorder...

One Minuite they are themselves, the next minuite another personality manifests itself outside the control of the "Host" personality....

Or what about Skytzophrenia.... an undiagnosed patient may very well be told by a "government official" that it is their sworn duty to protect the nation by killing somone...

In both of these instances it is a mental illness that not only interferes with the patients morality, but also in some cases eliminates it all together by having another personality carry out the crime...

Both of these illnesses are treatable and controllable.. Are you suggesting somone with multiple personality disorder be locked away for life because of a crime quite literally they did not commit?!??!

People do not have more than one soul, nor do they have more than one personality, unless they create that personality, in which case anything they do in either personality they should be responsible for. If they are not responsible for their actions, then who would be?

Psychology is man's attempt to analyze the human psyche, without taking into account the soul, the spirit and the sin-nature. The human psyche cannot be fully understood without taking those things into account. So they are attempting to understand and solve spiritual problems with human solutions, and it doesn't work.

In the Mosaic law, under the section that dealt with murder, were there any exceptions to the rule?
Any fine print?
Eye for an eye, (unless the person is suffering from some psychosis which impairs him/her from making rational decisions).
I don't remember seeing any fine print. So if God did not take that into account, why should we?

[cheewiee]

People do not have more than one soul, nor do they have more than one personality, unless they create that personality, in which case anything they do in either personality they should be responsible for. If they are not responsible for their actions, then who would be?


What about demon possession???

Is somone being demon possessed a capital offense?

[Musicdude]

What about demon possession???

Is somone being demon possessed a capital offense?

That is the only case where you are truly not in control of your actions, so I would think God would not hold you accountable. The human courts won't recognize demon posession anyway, so they will probably attribute such a case to insanity. But a Christian cannot be demon posessed anyway. And if it is an unbeliever they are condemned by God, regardless of whether or not they kill anyone.

But the Mosaic law was for believers and unbelievers alike. The same penalties for sin applied to the unbelievers as it did the believers.

[cheewiee]

That is the only case where you are truly not in control of your actions, so I would think God would not hold you accountable. The human courts won't recognize demon posession anyway, so they will probably attribute such a case to insanity. But a Christian cannot be demon posessed anyway. And if it is an unbeliever they are condemned by God, regardless of whether or not they kill anyone.

But the Mosaic law was for believers and unbelievers alike. The same penalties for sin applied to the unbelievers as it did the believers.

First we are not under Mosaic law...

Second, you are right a Christian cannot be demon posessed, but an unbelieving perosn posessed by a demon, can become saved... (after being delivered of the demon).

[Musicdude]

First we are not under Mosaic law...

I know that, and I have said that a couple of times. The only reason I brought it up is it shows very clearly that God is not opposed to the death penalty. So the claims that captiol punishment is anti-biblical are just false.

Second, you are right a Christian cannot be demon posessed, but an unbelieving perosn posessed by a demon, can become saved... (after being delivered of the demon).

I doubt they can be saved while demon-possesed. But even if they can, what is your point?

[cheewiee]

I know that, and I have said that a couple of times. The only reason I brought it up is it shows very clearly that God is not opposed to the death penalty. So the claims that captiol punishment is anti-biblical are just false.

Capital punishment isn't necessarly anti-biblical, but it is tough to reconcile a pro death penalty stance with a pro life stance...

I doubt they can be saved while demon-possesed. But even if they can, what is your point?

If somone commits a murder while being demon possessed (outside of their control) and said demon is cast out of them, you must agree that the individual should not be held accountable for their actions..

And I am also sure you would agree, much of what phsychirtrists say is mental illness is probibly more likely demonic oppression, or posession...

[Musicdude]

Capital punishment isn't necessarly anti-biblical, but it is tough to reconcile a pro death penalty stance with a pro life stance...

Not really. Capitol punishment saves a lot more lives than it takes.

If somone commits a murder while being demon possessed (outside of their control) and said demon is cast out of them, you must agree that the individual should not be held accountable for their actions..

I don't know for certain. But even if they are held accountable for murder or whatever other sin they commit while possesed, Christ did pay for those sins. So it's not like they can't be forgiven.

And I am also sure you would agree, much of what phsychirtrists say is mental illness is probibly more likely demonic oppression, or posession...

Probably.

[SonflowerGurl]

So what would you say about somone who exhibits a mental illness such as Multiple Personality Disorder...

One Minuite they are themselves, the next minuite another personality manifests itself outside the control of the "Host" personality....

Or what about Skytzophrenia.... an undiagnosed patient may very well be told by a "government official" that it is their sworn duty to protect the nation by killing somone...

In both of these instances it is a mental illness that not only interferes with the patients morality, but also in some cases eliminates it all together by having another personality carry out the crime...

Both of these illnesses are treatable and controllable.. Are you suggesting somone with multiple personality disorder be locked away for life because of a crime quite literally they did not commit?!??!


Kill'um ALL and Let God Sort'um Out!! ;)