The Fabric of the Episcopol Church is beginning to rip...

[cheewiee]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-episcopals_106jun30,0,589 022.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

Angered by actions at their denomination's recent general convention regarding homosexuality, the Episcopal Diocese of Central Florida on Thursday asked the head of the worldwide Anglican Communion to name a foreign church leader to oversee its affairs.

The move, Bishop John Howe acknowledged, brings the Central Florida diocese closer to a split from the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church, USA.

The Central Florida diocese's governing board voted unanimously to join three other conservative American dioceses in asking the Rev. Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, to provide theological oversight by primates from outside the Episcopal Church, USA. The others making the request so far are the dioceses of San Joaquin, Calif., South Carolina and Pittsburgh

Here is the Really bizarre part..

We are deeply saddened at the election of a presiding bishop of The Episcopal Church who consented to the consecration of Gene Robinson in 2003, who supported the blessing of same sex unions in the Diocese of Nevada, and who, in her first sermon following the election, spoke of "Jesus, our mother."


This is one of the first denominations that may wind up tearing itself apart over the topic of Homosexuality...

But I really wanted to ask any Episcopailians about this new presiding Bishop... Has she even bothered to read the bible?

[Buttabean]

I'm not Episcopol, but I'd sure like to know how she even was able to become a pastor, let alone a bishop. Who let her climb up in the ranks?? :confused: She is obviously a confused woman, and she disregards real Biblical teachings. If I was God, I'd be ticked. :p

[Joshua24:15]

I was all sorts of shocked by that statement and went looking for a copy of that sermon just because I couldn't believe someone would actually say that.

Well. She did.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4318

However, it may not have been Feminazi propaganda by this dissent within the discussion:
Well...let's not get so carried away by our zeal for The True Tradition that we make that Tradition narrower and more rigid than it actually is.

In fact, there is nothing radical or heretical in Mrs. Jefferts Schori's language, after all. Such unimpeachably orthodox saints as Bernard of Clairvaux and Julian of Norwich spoke of Jesus as "our Mother", who brings us to birth as a New Creation and feeds us from His own Body. Many Syriac-speaking saints, like Ephrem and Aphrahat, followed the grammer of their own language (and Hebrew) by using feminine pronouns and images for the Holy Spirit, and St. Jerome (the crustiest of Church Fathers) said that this was completely biblical.

When, in our opposition to excessive feminism, we go too far the other way and seek to "cleanse" the Tradition of the "feminism" that's legitimately there, all we do is drive many women (and some men) away from the Tradition and into the arms of the real radicals. This is not a prudent or godly thing to do.

So...you can legitimately object to many things that Mrs. Jefferts Schori does and says. This prayer to 'Jesus our Mother', however, isn't one of them. It's perfectly cool, to those who really know the Tradition.

Pax,

John


Interesting sermon though. I read the entire thing twice and got absolutely nothing from it. Nada. Zip. Is this the best spiritual food she has to offer?

[Sam!]

I am, technically, an Episcopalian. To explain what is going on would take hours, if not days. Anybody who wants to say this is a simple matter or had a specific cause doesn't know what they are talking about.

However, I will say this... the arrogance of The Episcopal Church is stunning. Even its name is arrogant-- It's not even the oldest church in the US to have bishops (meaning of the word "Episcopal").

Bp. Schori is among a large faction of Episcopalians who accept that much of scripture was inspired by God, but who reject its inerrancy and/or believe that they are being "prophetic" in revealing an enlightened version of what God truly wants for his church, and that these "new movements" of the Spirit supercede previous "unenlightened" teachings.

The short version is that the corporate church has become a social institution influenced by the world, having left its evangelistic and mission-oriented roots of 200 years ago.

While widespread, these revisionist doctrines are not universal nor believed by all members of the congregations. But there are plenty of bishops, priests, deacons and lay people who do share these beliefs and they have risen to power over time. The fabric began to rip 40-50 years ago, when you had a bishop like Bp. Pike, and others who reject teh bodily resurrection of Christ, authority of scripture, etc.

Anybody whose read my posts knows that I don't share these beliefs. Growing up Episcopalian, I had no clue what was happening at the national level. Now, I am a youth minister at an Episcopal parish and continue to preach the word and the good news of Christ crucified. I'm leaving, however, in August, and joining an Anglican Church (technically under the province of Rwanda and their archbishop) in the Anglican Mission in America, a mission of the Rwandan church to plant churches in the ancient Christian tradition ("that faith once delivered to the saints") in the U.S.... a radical departure from American churches doing mission work in Africa eh?

[Sam!]

Also, beware anything from virtueonline.org ... While I applaud that they are championing the cause of orthodox Anglican belief... there is a definite bias and slant on most of what is posted (the articles in the "guest writers" section are usually ok). Not to mention, the posters of comments are frequently out of line. In their fight to prevent what has happened to the Episcopal Church they have built up a lot of anger, resentment, even hatred, and are at best "overzealous" toward the left, often resorting to personal attacks of those who don't deserve it.

[cheewiee]

I am, technically, an Episcopalian. To explain what is going on would take hours, if not days. Anybody who wants to say this is a simple matter or had a specific cause doesn't know what they are talking about.

However, I will say this... the arrogance of The Episcopal Church is stunning. Even its name is arrogant-- It's not even the oldest church in the US to have bishops (meaning of the word "Episcopal").

Bp. Schori is among a large faction of Episcopalians who accept that much of scripture was inspired by God, but who reject its inerrancy and/or believe that they are being "prophetic" in revealing an enlightened version of what God truly wants for his church, and that these "new movements" of the Spirit supercede previous "unenlightened" teachings.

The short version is that the corporate church has become a social institution influenced by the world, having left its evangelistic and mission-oriented roots of 200 years ago.

While widespread, these revisionist doctrines are not universal nor believed by all members of the congregations. But there are plenty of bishops, priests, deacons and lay people who do share these beliefs and they have risen to power over time. The fabric began to rip 40-50 years ago, when you had a bishop like Bp. Pike, and others who reject teh bodily resurrection of Christ, authority of scripture, etc.

Anybody whose read my posts knows that I don't share these beliefs. Growing up Episcopalian, I had no clue what was happening at the national level. Now, I am a youth minister at an Episcopal parish and continue to preach the word and the good news of Christ crucified. I'm leaving, however, in August, and joining an Anglican Church (technically under the province of Rwanda and their archbishop) in the Anglican Mission in America, a mission of the Rwandan church to plant churches in the ancient Christian tradition ("that faith once delivered to the saints") in the U.S.... a radical departure from American churches doing mission work in Africa eh?

Captain,

How does the Church of England let such stuff go on? The article I posted clearly points out the concern that the overall communion has over the direction of the Episcopal Church...

[Sam!]

Also again, I am confident that Schori's remarksa bout "our Mother Jesus" are not rooted in ancient Christian writings. Nothing else that she teaches is. There is an Episcopal congregation leaving the Church in a diocese in Texas (which is actually a conxervative diocese!) that has a higher active population than Schori's entire Diocese in Nevada.

As TEC has become more "inclusive" it has lost more and more members and seen less and less growth. The overwhelming majority of thriving/growing Episcopal congregations are conservative--having the ability to love sinners without telling them they are ok just as they are. 30-40 years ago, the Episcopal Church had 4.5 million members. Since then, even with international expansion, there are now roughly 2.3 million members. The exodus really started with the ordination of women and has just continued as the church has gotten more an more wishy-washy.

[cheewiee]

Also again, I am confident that Schori's remarksa bout "our Mother Jesus" are not rooted in ancient Christian writings. Nothing else that she teaches is. There is an Episcopal congregation leaving the Church in a diocese in Texas (which is actually a conxervative diocese!) that has a higher active population than Schori's entire Diocese in Nevada.

As TEC has become more "inclusive" it has lost more and more members and seen less and less growth. The overwhelming majority of thriving/growing Episcopal congregations are conservative--having the ability to love sinners without telling them they are ok just as they are. 30-40 years ago, the Episcopal Church had 4.5 million members. Since then, even with international expansion, there are now roughly 2.3 million members. The exodus really started with the ordination of women and has just continued as the church has gotten more an more wishy-washy.

Well the Article I posted has the ENTIRE Central Florida Diocese asking the Anglican Church to establish a seperate line of Leadership for the Entire Diocese... That Is why I said that this is a sign of the fabric tearing... there is an entire Diocese of churches seeking to split from the Epispocal church, not just a congregation or two...

[Sam!]

Captain,

How does the Church of England let such stuff go on? The article I posted clearly points out the concern that the overall communion has over the direction of the Episcopal Church...
That's why it's complicated ;)

[Sam!]

Well the Article I posted has the ENTIRE Central Florida Diocese asking the Anglican Church to establish a seperate line of Leadership for the Entire Diocese... That Is why I said that this is a sign of the fabric tearing... there is an entire Diocese of churches seeking to split from the Epispocal church, not just a congregation or two...
Actually, it's not as big of a tear as it sounds like, because they are not seeking to leave the denomination. They are asking for a new primate as an authority, but would still be an Episcopal diocese (it would take an act of the Convention of that diocese to leave the national church).

[Sam!]

A crash course on Anglicansim (and I am by no means an expert):

Around the time of the Reformation, the Church of England formed out of a desire to maintain much of the Catholic faith, but ditching portions of Roman theology for Protestant belief. It was to be a Via Media, the middle way between Protestantism and Catholicism. Today, the Episcopal Church has become the middle way between Christianity and the world. But that's for another time...

The Church of England spread as the British Empire did. When the colonies revolted, the members of the CoE here couldn't remain in the CoE, as the monarch is the official head of the CoE (though without the spiritual authority of a bishop... it's complicated). Eventually, what formed was the Anglican Communion (Anglican meaning "of England"). There are now 38 Provinces of the Church of England. The Church of England is one, and then you have, say, the Anglican Church of Southeast Asia, Church of Rwanda, Church of Nigera, Southern Cone of South America, etc. etc. The US province is The Episcopal Church (formerly ECSUA-The Episcopal Church of the USA, formerly the Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA).

This is where it gets messy. In the Roman Church (and I believe Eastern Orthodox, though not sure), there is a clear hierarchy. Not so in Anglicanism. The Archbishop of Canterbury is sort of a titular head but has no authority over any provinces but his own. Each province is mostly autonomous, but bound to the others through "bonds of affection" through "instruments of unity."

Every 10 years, all of the bishops get together at Lambeth Palace in England, at what is known as the Lambeth Conference, to decide matters of the Church. That's part of what makes us Anglican.

The Primates (head of each province is a Primate... the Presiding Bishop though she has no real authority over any bishops is our Primate) gather yearly for the same person, and for other things.

Most of all, we are said to be in communion with one another so long as our bishops are in communion with one another. In communion in this case refers to the Eucharist. It is believed that sharing the body and blood of Christ unites the members of each congregation to one another and to their clergy, unites their clergy to their bishop, unites their bishop with other Episcopal bishops and the presiding bishiop, and unites our presiding bishop with the other primates.

While autonomy is given, there is also a practice somewhat equivalent to the "full faith and credit" clause of our US Constitution (i.e. if the State of Florida recognizes that I am legally married, every state must do so). If TEC ordains me a priest, then the other Churches recognize that ordination. So when we start ordaining women priests, women bishops, noncelibate homosexual priests and bishoips, etc., this is what really upsets the other provinces. Now we have forced our beliefs on them.

The US church is on its way to being disinvited from Primates' meetings, disinvited from Lambeth, refused communion from the Archbishop, etc. (I can't come up with all 4 instruments of unity...) as it has very clearly stated a willingness to walk apart from the other Anglican churches. As a result, other Anglican bishops and archbishops are taking Episcopal clergy, parishes and dioceses under their wing and authority. Networks of churches in the US are under the authority of South American and African bishops who, gasp, actually believe the authority of scripture over the Church. What is probably going to happen is that these independent networks will be merged into a new national Anglican province in America, to replace "The Gay Church" (which is how many of my Christian brothers and sisters ultimately see TEC).

Does this explain things at all? Nobody outside of TEC technically has the ability to dictate anything to us. And within TEC, nobody has the authority to dictate to individual bishops or dioceses as to what they can do. Most resolutions passed at our General Convention are unenforcable should a diocese or bishop violate them.

I should also note that the Anglican Church does not believe itself to be the only True Church, and so in refusing to be in Communion with someone they are not saying that person is not a Christian. However, I do question the faith and religion of most members of TEC... as it is becoming more and more unitarian by the day.

[Joshua24:15]

Thanks for that Cap'n. Very informative.

[Evanescence]

Ultimate power corrupts.....organized relgion at its finest.

No offense to Episcopals, but let the higher ups fight it out. Its only par for the chorus as to whats going on in the church...the whole church of Christ.

Dis-organized religion....:(

[Sam!]

Ultimate power corrupts.....organized relgion at its finest.

No offense to Episcopals, but let the higher ups fight it out. Its only par for the chorus as to whats going on in the church...the whole church of Christ.

Dis-organized religion....:(
What does the corruption of ultimate power have to do with it? If you ask me, it's the power given to uninformed people in our "democratic" process that has gotten us into this mess.

[RevZeek]

Very infomative post Sam...thanks for that.
Do you think those churches will start calling themselves "Anglican" as opposed to "Episcopalian?" so as to possibly distance themselves from beliefs and practices contrary to scripture

[Sam!]

Lots of them already are... And I know 11 parishes here in the Diocese of Florida (stretching from Tallahassee to Jacksonville and down here to Gainesville) have already left the diocese. Again, we have a conservative diocese but these parishes refused to be identified as Episcopalian if it meant being in communion with V. Gene Robinson (the openly homosexual bishop) and the other revisionists. Technically, a parish can't leave... but what has happened is that the clergy and typically 80-90% of the lay people (sometimes 100%) have left and started a new Anglican congregation under the authority of an overseas bishop.

[Sam!]

bump