Respect, Flag Burning, and the Fourth of July

[cheewiee]

A week from today, we will be celebrating the 230th Birthday of our great nation.

Right now our leaders are arguing and debating to change the constitution a document that has only been amended 27 times in 200 years to declare flag burning disrespectful, and not a form of protected speech.

[rant]

1st, Is flag burning that big of a problem in this country that we need to ban it? I mean with all the anti-american bile that Cindy Sheehan has spilled out of her trap, I have yet to read of one instance where she has burned a flag. We don't have big flag burning protests in this nation... yet... If this amendment passes I am sure you will however...

2nd, Respect for a symbol.. If you advocate this amendment and punishment for offenders out of respect for this great symbol, then you should also advocate punishment for Car dealerships that fly tattered unlit flags, You should advocate punishment for people wearing Flag boxers, cuz quite frankly I find the flag on somones hind end as casual wear far more offensive than somone protesting their government, by burning the flag

3rd, What punishment could you suggest... Jail time? How much, Fine? How high?

4th, If you want the right to protest our government, I suggest you support others rights to do so... Even though you may find their methods disgusting..

5th, Not one of our soldiers has died for this flag... Before you get there, the flag is a symbol for this country, NOT this country... I don't know one man who dies for a symbol... They died defending our rights and freedoms. To say that you cannot burn the flag only diminishes their sacrifice, in that we are giving our rights to protest our government away, rights that they died to defend... Did they die in vein?

Finally to quote my Fav. fictional president... Andrew Shepard

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've got to want it bad, because it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the 'land of the free'? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the 'land of the free.'"

[TheBus36(Retired)]

I hate when you make sense, especially since I seem to agree with you on this. with that being said, if you would excuse me, I'm going to go spray paint the National Monument!!!!!!!!!:eek: ;)

[cheewiee]

I hate when you make sense, especially since I seem to agree with you on this. with that being said, if you would excuse me, I'm going to go spray paint the National Monument!!!!!!!!!:eek: ;)

As long as you own said monument... I don't see anything wrong with that...

However if your going to vandelize "FEDERAL PROPERTY" please be prepared to face the full force of the DC Police...

[ObiShawn]

1st, Is flag burning that big of a problem in this country that we need to ban it?I say yes, we still need to ban it. The only reason it even happens is because the person burning it knows that it is a major insult to those who have a deep respect for it. They don't burn it to save their son from the cold, they do it out of hatred.

I mean with all the anti-american bile that Cindy Sheehan has spilled out of her trap, I have yet to read of one instance where she has burned a flag. To me, what she has done is no different. It is one thing to disagree with how the government does things, it is one thing to protest, but she took it even further than that. But then again, she was nothing more than a Liberal pawn. Go to the source.

2nd, Respect for a symbol.. If you advocate this amendment and punishment for offenders out of respect for this great symbol, then you should also advocate punishment for Car dealerships that fly tattered unlit flags, You should advocate punishment for people wearing Flag boxers, cuz quite frankly I find the flag on somones hind end as casual wear far more offensive than somone protesting their government, by burning the flag As for car dealerships, I feel that's a bit out of perspective, but when people wear boxers and other things that are of flag print, I agree. The American flag is never supposed to touch the ground, so why is it ok for some guy to fart in his flag print boxers? Why is it ok for some fool to spill BBQ sause on his flag print shirt?


EDIT - I wanted to clarify what I didn't say about the car dealerships. Their flags aren't tattered because of protest and neither are they flying them tattered in a disrespectful way. Now, I do feel that if they have flags that are tattered or in some form of bad shape, they should fix the problem.
3rd, What punishment could you suggest... Jail time? How much, Fine? How high?Firing squad? Just kidding, but I would suggest exile. I'm so sick of people in this nation protesting the nation itself. If you don't like this place, you can leave.

4th, If you want the right to protest our government, I suggest you support others rights to do so... Even though you may find their methods disgusting..Agreed

5th, Not one of our soldiers has died for this flag...Before you get there, the flag is a symbol for this country, NOT this country... I don't know one man who dies for a symbol... You might want to ask a few guys in the military their perspective on this. I have a good friend that joined the Corp. Back in school, the flag was just another colored piece of cloth. After his time in the Corp., he shows the deepest respect and honor to that "piece of cloth."

(To satisfy my own curiosity, I am going to ask my friend about this, his perspective of the flag and how he feels about people burning it. I also have a friend in the Army currently in Iraq [someone besides Grank] and I will ask for his 2 cents too. If you would like to know what they have to say, let me know.)


They died defending our rights and freedoms. To say that you cannot burn the flag only diminishes their sacrifice, in that we are giving our rights to protest our government away, rights that they died to defend... Did they die in vein?Again, this goes back to what I said with quote 1. The person doing the burning is wanting to make the most offensive insult they can, this is why they burn it. They want to disrespect the very people that gave them that freedom. The flag stands for the freedoms they have, so to burn it is to protest those freedoms as well.

[kiwisongbird]

Not being a patriotic American nor even being able to understand why a flag is such a fantastic thing to so many people - I think our flag is ok, but seeing it doesn't make me go all warm and fuzzy or anything like that - it weird seeing it burning but I find the burning of effigies much more disturbing... we went to a Guy Fawkes party (fireworks party) and they had an effigy of Bin Laden on the bonfire and it weirded me out seeing it burn - eeeewwww...

I think though, that it is much more important to protect freedom of speech/ action than to protect the flag and/or the sensitivities of other people.... love the quote of the pretend president....

[cheewiee]

Again, this goes back to what I said with quote 1. The person doing the burning is wanting to make the most offensive insult they can, this is why they burn it. They want to disrespect the very people that gave them that freedom. The flag stands for the freedoms they have, so to burn it is to protest those freedoms as well.

Since this seems to be your central point... I will adress this...

In the 1770's when the colonies were engaged in a civil war against England for their independance, they did things equally offensive. They burned the King of England, God's divinely appointed Ruler in effigy... This was the MOST offensive thing they could have done, and they did it... They felt so strongly about their position that the only way to convey the strength of their position was to burn a dummy of the King of England...

Should our founding fathers have been punished?

Free speech is that free speech, by abridging ANY of it, including flag burning does far more damage to the Symbol of the flag and the intent of the constitution, than any whack job burning it in protest... To me, it is far more disrespectful to the Flag, and those men and women in uniform who have died for it, and our constitution to ban burning the flag, than simply burning it is...

[SacredHeart]

Again, this goes back to what I said with quote 1. The person doing the burning is wanting to make the most offensive insult they can, this is why they burn it. They want to disrespect the very people that gave them that freedom. The flag stands for the freedoms they have, so to burn it is to protest those freedoms as well.
But since when is insulting people against the law? Should American laws protect me from being offended? Where does that end? We all get offended about something...

Trust me, I AM offended when people desecrate our flag, because of all it represents and all the lives that have been sacrificed to preserve that which it represents. But i'm not so sure our government should step in and make it illegal. That's dangerous ground and I'm not sure I want our government walking on it.

[cheewiee]

But since when is insulting people against the law? Should American laws protect me from being offended? Where does that end? We all get offended about something...

Trust me, I AM offended when people desecrate our flag, because of all it represents and all the lives that have been sacrificed to preserve that which it represents. But i'm not so sure our government should step in and make it illegal. That's dangerous ground and I'm not sure I want our government walking on it.

I too am offended when people desecrate the flag... but again as you pointed out, we do not have the right to not be offended... but we do have the right to free speech... The government should not... no IT MUST NOT have the ability to detirmine what free speech means...

[ObiShawn]

Should our founding fathers have been punished?Punished by whom? Our fathers went much further than protesting, they made a whole new nation. They separated themselves from their former authority.

If the people that want to disrespect the flag, the nation, and the people that died for it, then they need to be willing to take it as far as our founding fathers did. Their only other option is to remain living here. If they don't like the laws here, burning the flag isnt' going to change them. That is why we vote, we put the elected officals in office because they represent who we are and what we desire, for the most part.

So if they have no intentions of taking the initiative so see change brought, what good does it do them to burn a flag? Could they not get the same point across with signs and chants?


But since when is insulting people against the law?I never said that it was. I was leading up to a point, which was:

The flag stands for the freedoms they have, so to burn it is to protest those freedoms as well.

Should American laws protect me from being offended?Isn't that the job of the ACLU? :D

[cheewiee]

So if they have no intentions of taking the initiative so see change brought, what good does it do them to burn a flag? Could they not get the same point across with signs and chants?

Perhaps they belive burning the flag IS that iniative to see change...

Again.. Let me point out that Flag Burning isn't a huge deal in this nation... We don't see massive protests with people burning the flag do we?

Can you show me a link to one protest in the past year where somone was protesting by burning a flag?

[SacredHeart]

Punished by whom? Our fathers went much further than protesting, they made a whole new nation. They separated themselves from their former authority.

If the people that want to disrespect the flag, the nation, and the people that died for it, then they need to be willing to take it as far as our founding fathers did. Their only other option is to remain living here. If they don't like the laws here, burning the flag isnt' going to change them. That is why we vote, we put the elected officals in office because they represent who we are and what we desire, for the most part.

So if they have no intentions of taking the initiative so see change brought, what good does it do them to burn a flag? Could they not get the same point across with signs and chants?


I never said that it was. I was leading up to a point, which was:



Isn't that the job of the ACLU? :D
Hey...nobody said the people burning the flags were smart. They are their own worst enemies, to be sure! But like a soldier once told me, "I will defend their right to be stupid."

What concerns me is that we already have the government telling us what we can and cannot say, and while I do not think anybody should have the right to publicly promote violence against any people group, it scares me that the government now gets to determine what we can or cannot say and what is or is not "hate speech". It's a slippery slope...

[cheewiee]

Hey...nobody said the people burning the flags were smart. They are their own worst enemies, to be sure! But like a soldier once told me, "I will defend their right to be stupid."

What concerns me is that we already have the government telling us what we can and cannot say, and while I do not think anybody should have the right to publicly promote violence against any people group, it scares me that the government now gets to determine what we can or cannot say and what is or is not "hate speech". It's a slippery slope...


It is precisly because of the Hate Speech Laws in effect in Canada, elsewhere and threatening to come here that really forced me to embrace my vocal oppision to this amendment...

If we do not demand the right to free speech... it will be taken away... and eventually it will be a crime to call homosexual sex sinful...

[Sam!]

crackdown on violations of the flag code. flag boxers? fines for the manufacturer AND the wearer. burning? death penalty! have a problem with what is going on in this country or how it is being run, fine! print it, say it, do what you want. but flag burning is not speech nor written word. to me, flag burning is a declaration of war on the united states, or treason. it says, "i have a problem with the united states a nation." a nation is not made up of a government. a nation is the people, represented by their government who does not always do a great job representing them. that flag represents this nation and our core values, and me.

i'm only partly kidding.

[Sam!]

burning something is a destructive act that contains no words. how is it speech equivalent to preaching a biblical concept?

[SacredHeart]

If we do not demand the right to free speech... it will be taken away... and eventually it will be a crime to call homosexual sex sinful... I'd say we're on the precipice already.

[cheewiee]

burning something is a destructive act that contains no words. how is it speech equivalent to preaching a biblical concept?

Freedom of speech, emcompasses a freedom of expression.. This is how the supreme court has interpreted the first amendment... Burning the flag certainly is an expression, I am sure you would agree...

[middletree]

I say yes, we still need to ban it. The only reason it even happens is because the person burning it knows that it is a major insult to those who have a deep respect for it. They don't burn it to save their son from the cold, they do it out of hatred.

There is no Constitutional right to not be offended, and no right to not be hated.

When I was growing up and teachers still taught patriotic-type facts in history class, one quote that gripped me and still resonates is "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." This, to me, is the essence of what makes America great.

Many years ago, there was an incident in China where students were protesting against the government. One young man stood in front of a tank, daring it to run over him. It was a riveting moment. It was also heartbreaking, because when all was said and done, Chinese citizens were not allowed to speak publicly against their government. And now, 20 years later, they still can't: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,423551,00.html

I'd like to think that America is different from China. That we can protest and stand for what we believe in, without fear of getting prosecuted for doing so.

[cheewiee]

I'd say we're on the precipice already.

We are most certainly there, I agree... But this amendment will set a precidnet.. it will say We can abridge freedoms granted by the first amendment by passing another amendment...

[middletree]

You might want to ask a few guys in the military their perspective on this. I have a good friend that joined the Corp. Back in school, the flag was just another colored piece of cloth. After his time in the Corp., he shows the deepest respect and honor to that "piece of cloth."

You can ask me. I served in the US Army, and never once felt that I was asked to put my life on the line for a flag. We were there (near a communist border in the mid-80's) to protect Americans, and to protect a way of life. Not a flag.

[SacredHeart]

I have to say that I have only recently come to see the flag burning issue this way. When it became more prevalent, I had an immediate and visceral reaction to it, which is exactly what they wanted. These are people wanting attention, wanting to incite anger, wanting to offend, but rarely, do these same people represent prevalent ideologies. Instead, they're radical extremists who can't get attention any other way than to act like a naughty child who, when not the center of attention, stands in the center of a group of adults and pees on himself.

[ObiShawn]

There is no Constitutional right to not be offended, and no right to not be hated.I've never argued this point. People can hate me all they want to and I am not bothered by it. But there is something inherently and morally wrong with burning the flag. I believe that CaptainSisko was pretty close to the mark when he said -

flag burning is a declaration of war on the united states, or treason. it says, "i have a problem with the united states a nation." a nation is not made up of a government. a nation is the people, represented by their government who does not always do a great job representing them. that flag represents this nation and our core values, and me.

If it is ok for people to burn the flag, then why is it illegal for people to shoot the Eagle? What makes a bird so different?

[cheewiee]

If it is ok for people to burn the flag, then why is it illegal for people to shoot the Eagle? What makes a bird so different?

It's endangered.....

[ObiShawn]

I'm not saying you are wrong, I was just under the impression that there was a law against it because it is the national bird.

[cheewiee]

I've never argued this point. People can hate me all they want to and I am not bothered by it. But there is something inherently and morally wrong with burning the flag. I believe that CaptainSisko was pretty close to the mark when he said -
flag burning is a declaration of war on the united states, or treason. it says, "i have a problem with the united states a nation." a nation is not made up of a government. a nation is the people, represented by their government who does not always do a great job representing them. that flag represents this nation and our core values, and me.

If it is ok for people to burn the flag, then why is it illegal for people to shoot the Eagle? What makes a bird so different?

Who says flag burning is a declaration of war, or treason? Are you saying burning the flag is equal to Pearl Harbor or 9-11... Your saying that burning the flag is the same as selling to our enemy troop movements? That is CRAZY... Burning the flag is nothing more than what it is.. It is a political statement... and expression if you will of utter disgust at this nation. While you may not have, nor do you feel said utter disgust, who's to say that you might not one day feel that way. Do not ever forget that this country is dynamic, always changing, just because she was a great mighty righteous nation worthy of honor, that doesnt mean she always will be.

What you are refering to is called Nationalisim, not Patriotism... We have the ability and authority to not only question but to protest our leaders when we deem appropriate.

Again, to abridge somone's freedom to express themselves because you disagree with it, tramples not only the flag you say you respect, but the Constitution and the people the flag represents...

[cheewiee]

I'm not saying you are wrong, I was just under the impression that there was a law against it because it is the national bird.

From wiki

The Bald Eagle (Haliaeetus leucocephalus), also known as the American Eagle, is a bird of prey originating in North America, most recognizable as the national bird of the United States. The species was on the brink of extinction late in the 20th century but now has a stable population and is in the process of being removed from the U.S. federal government's list of endangered species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_Eagle#National_bird_ of_the_U.S.

[ObiShawn]

Who says flag burning is a declaration of war, or treason? Are you saying burning the flag is equal to Pearl Harbor or 9-11... Your saying that burning the flag is the same as selling to our enemy troop movements? No, CaptainSisko said that, I said he was close to the mark. The point is that it is an extreme statement of defiance against the nation.

What you are refering to is called Nationalisim, not Patriotism... We have the ability and authority to not only question but to protest our leaders when we deem appropriate. This is true.

Again, to abridge somone's freedom to express themselves because you disagree with it, tramples not only the flag you say you respect, but the Constitution and the people the flag represents...Burning the flag tramples not only the flag you say you respect, but the Constitution and the people the flag represents. To ban flag burning is not to stop people from protesting. It is to protect our national emblem and what it represents.

[cheewiee]

Burning the flag tramples not only the flag you say you respect, but the Constitution and the people the flag represents. To ban flag burning is not to stop people from protesting. It is to protect our national emblem and what it represents.

The National emblem, is just a symbol of what makes this country great, NOT WHAT MAKES THIS COUNTRY GREAT... It is that simple... We may have the best looking flag (and in my oppinion we do) but it is meaningless without the comentment to the constitution that flag represents. That constitution says..

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And in two seperate occassions the SCOTUS INCLUDING Scalia has ruled that flag burning fell under protection of the first Amdendment.

Do you really feel comfortable with your leaders messing around with the very amendment which gives you the right to worship God?

[musicjaytee]

I don't have any links, and I'm not even sure that it for sure happened, but I heard of people burning flags in the driveways of the houses of some of the soldiers killed in Iraq.

I don't think that it's simply an offensive act. I'm not in any way a patriot, but flag burning is what I believe to be the biggest demonstration of hatred. Burning anything is the most offensive act. When I think of a 'demonstration' that uses burnings, I think of the KKK, the Salem witch trials and book burnings.

This law would apply to Americans. Why burn the flag of the country you choose to live in? Go back home and burn someone else's flag.

[bajagill]

So much that I agree with, only a little I don't.....but that's why God gave us His grace isn't it? So that we can (hopefully ) deal w/ one another in a loving manner. This post is prob. gonna seem pretty disjointed so bear w/ me.

is burning the flag a form of expression? Maybe.... b/c there are so many other ways that can be more effective in voicing your opinion/discontent.

Yes, I am offended by some one who burns the U.S. flag..... but as pointed out earlier, I do not have a right to not be offended. I am generally of the opinion that someone who does burn our flag is one of the following:

1) not actually willing to try to effect real change ( I know, I'm copy-catting but they're correct ), if they were they would take the time and effort to do something that would actually make a difference and gain support for their view, not do something that would alienate themselves from those whom that support might come....long way of saying stupid, lazy, and not really committed to their "cause".

2) only looking to inflame the largest amount of people they possibly can with the least amount of effort on their part ( sensationalism ). See #1 and also Sacredheart's post above about the naughty child.

3) also from Sacredheart...."rarely, do these same people represent prevalent ideologies".....I believe the term used for these folks earlier was "whack jobs". Here, I am only speaking of U.S. citizens, not people of a different country.

I know there's a lot more I could put here but I would rather not at this time.

[cheewiee]

I don't have any links, and I'm not even sure that it for sure happened, but I heard of people burning flags in the driveways of the houses of some of the soldiers killed in Iraq.

Well then if you can't substantiate it happend, it is rumor and gosip... but feel free to look for links....

I don't think that it's simply an offensive act. I'm not in any way a patriot, but flag burning is what I believe to be the biggest demonstration of hatred. Burning anything is the most offensive act. When I think of a 'demonstration' that uses burnings, I think of the KKK, the Salem witch trials and book burnings.

So then what do you think about the early Patriots burning King George III (A real living breathing person) in effegy?

This law would apply to Americans. Why burn the flag of the country you choose to live in? Go back home and burn someone else's flag.
As much as I love to live in this country, I was not given the choice to live here... I was born here... so short of proving my Czech Heritage and becoming a dual citizen, leaving is kind of difficult...

But regardless... One could love this country and burn the flag out of disgust of the direction said country is heading...

[cheewiee]

So much that I agree with, only a little I don't.....but that's why God gave us His grace isn't it? So that we can (hopefully ) deal w/ one another in a loving manner. This post is prob. gonna seem pretty disjointed so bear w/ me.

is burning the flag a form of expression? Maybe.... b/c there are so many other ways that can be more effective in voicing your opinion/discontent.

But that really doesn't matter... The Constitution doesn't guarantee your right to expression based on the efficiency and effectiveness of your expression.

Yes, I am offended by some one who burns the U.S. flag..... but as pointed out earlier, I do not have a right to not be offended. I am generally of the opinion that someone who does burn our flag is one of the following:

1) not actually willing to try to effect real change ( I know, I'm copy-catting but they're correct ), if they were they would take the time and effort to do something that would actually make a difference and gain support for their view, not do something that would alienate themselves from those whom that support might come....long way of saying stupid, lazy, and not really committed to the "cause".

2) only looking to inflame the largest amount of people they possibly can with the least amount of effort on their part ( sensationalism ). See #1 and also Sacredheart's post above about the naughty child.

3) also from Sacredheart...."rarely, do these same people represent prevalent ideologies".....I believe the term used for these folks earlier was "whack jobs". Here, I am only speaking of U.S. citizens, not people of a different country.

I know there's a lot more I could put here but I would rather not at this time.

Ok, There have been Two Seperate SCOTUS cases involving flag burning.. Lets look at both of these shall we...

During the 1984 Republican National Convention in Dallas, Texas, respondent Gregory Lee Johnson, a member of the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade (youth wing of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA) and a leader of the Corporate War Chest Tour, participated in a political demonstration to protest the policies of the Reagan administration and some Dallas-based corporations. After a march through the city streets, Johnson burned an American flag while protesters chanted.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson

The defendant in United States vs. Eichman, Shawn Eichman, had burnt an American flag on the steps of the United States Capitol to protest American foreign and domestic policy. Mark Haggerty, in the jointly decided case, had burnt a flag in Seattle, Washington.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Eichman

There isn't enough here to say the motiviation behind either case, however here are some other related SCOTUS cases...

Stromberg v. California Stated that display of a Red Flag constituted Free Speech
Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District stated that wearing a black armband constituted free speech

[kristalball]

Burning the flag tramples not only the flag you say you respect, but the Constitution and the people the flag represents. To ban flag burning is not to stop people from protesting. It is to protect our national emblem and what it represents.

Flag burning is wrong to me, but to add to an amendment that has served us well for 200 years is wrong.
If that happens, it could open the floodgates to other amendments of other freedoms we have in America.

If we keep adding amendments like this to the Constitution, it will make America less free.

[SacredHeart]

Nice to see you, Alvin!



So if we agree that flag burning should be permitted and *gasp* even protected, (except for Shawn, thus far) does that freedom of speech permit a person to say anything they want, anywhere they want, to anybody they want? Shouldn't freedom of speech work within the confines of truth (short of libel) and within the perameters of decency? Meaning, Fred Phelps' and his verbal hitmen can say what they want but they just can't say it anywhere they want. Should people be permitted to burn the flag if they want, just not on my driveway? Should there be confines of freedom of speech or should it be permitted without restriction?

[cheewiee]

Nice to see you, Alvin!

So if we agree that flag burning should be permitted and *gasp* even protected, (except for Shawn, thus far) does that freedom of speech permit a person to say anything they want, anywhere they want, to anybody they want? Shouldn't freedom of speech work within the confines of truth (short of libel) and within the perameters of decency? Meaning, Fred Phelps' and his verbal hitmen can say what they want but they just can't say it anywhere they want. Should people be permitted to burn the flag if they want, just not on my driveway? Should there be confines of freedom of speech or should it be permitted without restriction?

You have your active rights, so long as they don't violate somone's passive rights...

Take yelling fire in a crowded movie theater.. that would no doubt cause panic, and injury, even possibly causing death... well then said right to free speech violates your rights to safety.... And I think you have reasonable rights to be safe in a public place..

Now, if you lie about me, I have to prove that what you said was false, that you knew it was false when you said it, and that it hurt me financially, in order for a Jury to decide you commited libel or slander.. .and even then it is a civil case, not a criminal case.

Meaning, Fred Phelps' and his verbal hitmen can say what they want but they just can't say it anywhere they want.
Phelps and his clan should have the right to say whatever they want on public property... Now on a private Cemetary, that falls on the owner of the property who he lets on it...

Should people be permitted to burn the flag if they want, just not on my driveway?

Not your driveway, but the sidewalk in front of your house is Kosher...

Should there be confines of freedom of speech or should it be permitted without restriction?

For a healthy democracy to exist, speech should be free and unrestricted so long as it does not violate others passive rights...

[bajagill]

...was pondering instances of burning in the Bible and came across Ex.20:24..."Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship(peace) offerings, .."

This is supposed to be a christian site isn't it? I decided to set aside my personal (fleshly) feelings and seek God's counsel on this matter. Are those who burn the flag sending up a burnt offering to God? I doubt it very much. The other instance of burning something in the Bible that comes to mind (other than cooking or warming or general disposal of rubbish, etc.) is that of people who were sacrificing their children to the false god Molech. Unfortunately I do not have the proper time I need to research this out right here and now to give the biblical references. Just a simple(?) question.....which of these two instances do you think more closely typifies the behavior generally associated with and/or seen at the "events" which have involved the burning of the U.S. flag? Not referring to those in foreign countries, those in ours.

Cheewiee, I am not trying to hijack or kill off your thread.....everybody else, not necessary to reply to this post, just something for all to consider and meditate on from a Godly perspective.

[ObiShawn]

So if we agree that flag burning should be permitted and *gasp* even protected, (except for Shawn, thus far)No, I am in agreement that they have the right. I just feel that the specific act of burning the flag should be illegal.

[musicjaytee]

Well then if you can't substantiate it happend, it is rumor and gosip... but feel free to look for links....
I haven't had the chance to look some up, but my dad told me that he saw it on the news...I just meant I didn't see the report first hand.

So then what do you think about the early Patriots burning King George III (A real living breathing person) in effegy?
I think it was a disgusting display. What were they doing at the time? Trying to break away from England. They were preparing for war against England.

As much as I love to live in this country, I was not given the choice to live here... I was born here... so short of proving my Czech Heritage and becoming a dual citizen, leaving is kind of difficult...
But you're not the one burning the flag.

But regardless... One could love this country and burn the flag out of disgust of the direction said country is heading...
I am not a believer in symbols themselves, but I know that they represent a higher being/ideal. In the case of the flag, it does not represent just the government, the citizens or the physical country. It represents every single aspect of America as a complete whole. If you want to protest where the country is heading, write it on a sign. If you just go and burn a flag, you're just stating that America is entirely worthless and fit for nothing but destruction.

There is nothing peaceful about burning something (yes, I exclude campfires and the like). That is plain and simple vandalism.

[SacredHeart]

No, I am in agreement that they have the right. I just feel that the specific act of burning the flag should be illegal.
What the? Quit trying to confuse me!

[ObiShawn]

What the? Quit trying to confuse me!Silly old woman. . . .

They currently (present tense) have the right. If I ever get to cast my vote, I would make (future tense) burning the flag illegal, not protesting, but burning the flag.

[musicjaytee]

...was pondering instances of burning in the Bible and came across Ex.20:24..."Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship(peace) offerings, .."

This is supposed to be a christian site isn't it? I decided to set aside my personal (fleshly) feelings and seek God's counsel on this matter. Are those who burn the flag sending up a burnt offering to God? I doubt it very much. The other instance of burning something in the Bible that comes to mind (other than cooking or warming or general disposal of rubbish, etc.) is that of people who were sacrificing their children to the false god Molech. Unfortunately I do not have the proper time I need to research this out right here and now to give the biblical references. Just a simple(?) question.....which of these two instances do you think more closely typifies the behavior generally associated with and/or seen at the "events" which have involved the burning of the U.S. flag? Not referring to those in foreign countries, those in ours.

Cheewiee, I am not trying to hijack or kill off your thread.....everybody else, not necessary to reply to this post, just something for all to consider and meditate on from a Godly perspective.
Thanks for reminding me about that part of my argument. The only time fire is an (for lack of better words) 'okay' thing in the Bible is when it is either in burning a sacrifice, or it is God speaking/Holy Spirit, in which the object 'on fire' is not consumed. Any other time fire is present, it is almost always a sign of condemnation or cleansing of evil. If you look at the biblical meaning of burning, in the kind of situation that it is occurring, burning the flag is not just a protest or 'expression'. It's essentially judgment.

[cheewiee]

...was pondering instances of burning in the Bible and came across Ex.20:24..."Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship(peace) offerings, .."

This is supposed to be a christian site isn't it? I decided to set aside my personal (fleshly) feelings and seek God's counsel on this matter. Are those who burn the flag sending up a burnt offering to God? I doubt it very much. The other instance of burning something in the Bible that comes to mind (other than cooking or warming or general disposal of rubbish, etc.) is that of people who were sacrificing their children to the false god Molech. Unfortunately I do not have the proper time I need to research this out right here and now to give the biblical references. Just a simple(?) question.....which of these two instances do you think more closely typifies the behavior generally associated with and/or seen at the "events" which have involved the burning of the U.S. flag? Not referring to those in foreign countries, those in ours.

Cheewiee, I am not trying to hijack or kill off your thread.....everybody else, not necessary to reply to this post, just something for all to consider and meditate on from a Godly perspective.

It doesn't fall closer to either... One is offering something to God, the Second was an offering to a false God... If anything, (and I know this will get me into HEAPS of trouble on this mainly American/Patriotic board.. but here it goes) The American Christian has turned the Flag, and the Nation it represents into a false God, and Idol if you will. This is not to dish on appropriate levels of Patriotism... again, I love this nation, however she as great as she is and has been, she is still simply a flawed creation of man, that will cease to exist one day...

Whats worse is that we have so much more reverence for Lady Liberty, and the other symbols of this nation than God often times... People wearing hats to church, putting gum under the pew, sitting during praise and worship... Yet these same people will ask you whats wrong in your head if you fail to stand for the national anthem...

So honestly, punishing those for burning the flag to me seems much closer to those who offered those children to molech...

[bajagill]

But that really doesn't matter... The Constitution doesn't guarantee your right to expression based on the efficiency and effectiveness of your expression.



true, it doesn't. But which one shows common decency and respect for your fellow citizen? When trying to get past someone do we say "excuse me" or do we light their shirt on fire? They are both effective in getting what we wanted but one is not necessarily very reponsible or prudent.

[cheewiee]

That is plain and simple vandalism.

How can you vandalize something you own? These people are not going out stealing flags to burn... or burning neighbors flags.. when it happens they go out and purchase and make private property the flag...

[cheewiee]

true, it doesn't. But which one shows common decency and respect for your fellow citizen? When trying to get past someone do we say "excuse me" or do we light their shirt on fire? They are both effective in getting what we wanted but one is not necessarily very reponsible or prudent.

Lighting their shirt on fire, damage their property and hurts them... so it isn't the same thing...

How does somone who goes out and purchases a flag from the store and burns it in protest effects you?

Your anology is flawed....

[bajagill]

It doesn't fall closer to either... good, I hoped you'd feel that way--baja


So honestly, punishing those for burning the flag to me seems much closer to those who offered those children to molech...

??? I don't follow you on this part ???

[musicjaytee]

It doesn't fall closer to either... One is offering something to God, the Second was an offering to a false God... If anything, (and I know this will get me into HEAPS of trouble on this mainly American/Patriotic board.. but here it goes) The American Christian has turned the Flag, and the Nation it represents into a false God, and Idol if you will. This is not to dish on appropriate levels of Patriotism... again, I love this nation, however she as great as she is and has been, she is still simply a flawed creation of man, that will cease to exist one day...

Whats worse is that we have so much more reverence for Lady Liberty, and the other symbols of this nation than God often times... People wearing hats to church, putting gum under the pew, sitting during praise and worship... Yet these same people will ask you whats wrong in your head if you fail to stand for the national anthem...

So honestly, punishing those for burning the flag to me seems much closer to those who offered those children to molech...
I'll admit, you offer some very good arguments here. I agree that many people do seem to view the flag and lady liberty as idols. I also feel that many people's view of/behavior in church is more offensive than the flag burning.

However, I still feel that the burning of the American flag should be illegal. America should be able to protect itself as much as its citizens. Burning the flag is not a protest against what America does...it is a demonstration of judgment on all that America is, freedom of speech included.

[SacredHeart]

Silly old woman. . . .

They currently (present tense) have the right. If I ever get to cast my vote, I would make (future tense) burning the flag illegal, not protesting, but burning the flag.
Oh hush up, cat lady! :p




...was pondering instances of burning in the Bible and came across Ex.20:24..."Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship(peace) offerings, .."

This is supposed to be a christian site isn't it? I decided to set aside my personal (fleshly) feelings and seek God's counsel on this matter. Are those who burn the flag sending up a burnt offering to God? I doubt it very much. The other instance of burning something in the Bible that comes to mind (other than cooking or warming or general disposal of rubbish, etc.) is that of people who were sacrificing their children to the false god Molech. Unfortunately I do not have the proper time I need to research this out right here and now to give the biblical references. Just a simple(?) question.....which of these two instances do you think more closely typifies the behavior generally associated with and/or seen at the "events" which have involved the burning of the U.S. flag? Not referring to those in foreign countries, those in ours.

Cheewiee, I am not trying to hijack or kill off your thread.....everybody else, not necessary to reply to this post, just something for all to consider and meditate on from a Godly perspective.

Nice curveball, Alvin! :D I guess my only point is that these are 2 seperate issues: "What would Jesus do?" and "What would Uncle Sam do?"

Because our constitution protects freedom of speech, I believe flag burning should be permitted and protected. But is it moral? My opinion is no, however, the purpose of the Constitution is not to determine what is moral but what is lawful.

[bajagill]

Lighting their shirt on fire, damage their property and hurts them... so it isn't the same thing...

How does somone who goes out and purchases a flag from the store and burns it in protest effects you?

Your anology is flawed....
You're splitting hairs a little on this one , I feel. I was only trying to make the point of being effective.... maybe I carried the fire thing too far in this instance, How about poking them with a clean, sterilized sewing needle in place of lighting their shirt on fire? (Yes, it hurts, but not life threatening or damaging.)

[musicjaytee]

How can you vandalize something you own? These people are not going out stealing flags to burn... or burning neighbors flags.. when it happens they go out and purchase and make private property the flag...
Oooh.....good point. I admit my mistake.

It took a while to come up with a rebuttle, but I couldn't think of a good one. So here's goes my fluffy attempt. :( Legally, you can't vandalise your own property. However, for lack of better words, I see burning something in protest as 'vandalism'. Other similar, but also not quite right, words would be destruction, defacing, etc.

Basically, while it isn't actually vandalism, it certainly isn't a peaceful protest. It's just destruction.

[bajagill]

Oh hush up, cat lady! :p






Nice curveball, Alvin! :D I guess my only point is that these are 2 seperate issues: "What would Jesus do?" and "What would Uncle Sam do?"

Because our constitution protects freedom of speech, I believe flag burning should be permitted and protected. But is it moral? My opinion is no, however, the purpose of the Constitution is not to determine what is moral but what is lawful.


Not meant as a curveball, but thanks nonetheless......




Give that Sacredheart cigar!!! Bullseye!

[musicjaytee]

You're splitting hairs a little on this one , I feel. I was only trying to make the point of being effective.... maybe I carried the fire thing too far in this instance, How about poking them with a clean, sterilized sewing needle in place of lighting their shirt on fire? (Yes, it hurts, but not life threatening or damaging.)
Maybe another thought on that...
You can shove someone out of the way or say excuse me. If you say excuse me, the person will know why you feel they should change their current position. If you shove them out of the way, they're just confused and offended.

[SacredHeart]

Not meant as a curveball, but thanks nonetheless......




Give that Sacredheart cigar!!! Bullseye!
Oh it better be a Cuban! :D

[ObiShawn]

Because our constitution protects freedom of speech, I believe flag burning should be permitted and protected. But is it moral? My opinion is no, however, the purpose of the Constitution is not to determine what is moral but what is lawful.For an old lady, you've made a good point. But I guess that's a benefit of being old; experience.

Reading this post, I was reminded of the topic we had not so long ago about gay marriages. Should gay marriages be legal? According to our law, yes, but that doesnt' make it moral.

[cheewiee]

However, I still feel that the burning of the American flag should be illegal. America should be able to protect itself as much as its citizens. Burning the flag is not a protest against what America does...it is a demonstration of judgment on all that America is, freedom of speech included.

Ok, The SCOTUS has ruled that an action as long as it is conveying an idea is protects as free speech....

So under that, Burning the Flag is currently protected speech... Shawn is not disagreeing with that, he even has come out and admitted such... HOWEVER now we say, we find this particular form of speech to be completly against America, so we are going to limit it... NOt just by passing a law (Which would be struck down by SCOTUS) but by Amending a document that has only been amended 27 times over 200 years... Said Amendment will limit the reach and scope of the first Amendment... To me, that is not only taking a gigantic DUMP on the Constitution, but the flag that represents it as well...

I would rather let a few whackjobs burn their flag, than to let them infurieate me at their display to the point that I burn it myself by destroying the very principles said flag stands for...

[cheewiee]

You're splitting hairs a little on this one , I feel. I was only trying to make the point of being effective.... maybe I carried the fire thing too far in this instance, How about poking them with a clean, sterilized sewing needle in place of lighting their shirt on fire? (Yes, it hurts, but not life threatening or damaging.)

How about bumping into them... and as far as I am concerned and have experienced a New York City Subway... Bumping into somone w/o apologizing isn't a criminal offense...

[bajagill]

Maybe another thought on that...
You can shove someone out of the way or say excuse me. If you say excuse me, the person will know why you feel they should change their current position. If you shove them out of the way, they're just confused and offended.
Another one on the nose.....

[cheewiee]

Basically, while it isn't actually vandalism, it certainly isn't a peaceful protest. It's just destruction.

As long as no one gets hurt, sure it is...

I mean, if I made pictures of aborted babies and stuck them on peice of cardboard, do you think those women getting an abortion would think I was protesting peacefully?

They wouldn't I am sure of it... but so long as I don't harm them or their body It would be...

[bajagill]

How about bumping into them... and as far as I am concerned and have experienced a New York City Subway... Bumping into somone w/o apologizing isn't a criminal offense...
Which, however, would you prefer to receive? And, which are you more likely to perform? If/when you do bump, do you not apologize normally?

[cheewiee]

Which, however, would you prefer to receive? And, which are you more likely to perform? If/when you do bump, do you not apologize normally?

Does it matter.... Should we imprison somone for bumping into people and not aplogizing?

[bajagill]

Does it matter.... Should we imprison somone for bumping into people and not aplogizing?
It should matter to a christian........no, we should come along side them and attempt to show them at least a better way....then (prob.) have to remember to turn the other cheek as Paul instructs us.



Would love to continue, but I'm going to be late for w**k if I don't split. Check back w/ you later...

[SacredHeart]

For an old lady, you've made a good point. But I guess that's a benefit of being old; experience.

So what's the benefit of being stupid? hehe...


I think the "bumping into someone" argument is very weak and not a good representation of the magnitude of the issue. It's like equating someone who slaps you in the face with the back of their hand with accidently bumping into you. One is intentional, the other is not. Those who burn the flag are symbolically back-handing America, Americans and all that this country stands for. And yet, is a sin against America a sin against God? Maybe...maybe not.

[bajagill]

So what's the benefit of being stupid? hehe...


I think the "bumping into someone" argument is very weak and not a good representation of the magnitude of the issue. It's like equating someone who slaps you in the face with the back of their hand with accidently bumping into you. One is intentional, the other is not. Those who burn the flag are symbolically back-handing America, Americans and all that this country stands for. And yet, is a sin against America a sin against God? Maybe...maybe not.
nice point sister.

[cheewiee]

So what's the benefit of being stupid? hehe...


I think the "bumping into someone" argument is very weak and not a good representation of the magnitude of the issue. It's like equating someone who slaps you in the face with the back of their hand with accidently bumping into you. One is intentional, the other is not. Those who burn the flag are symbolically back-handing America, Americans and all that this country stands for. And yet, is a sin against America a sin against God? Maybe...maybe not.

Do you really think somone who is burning the flag means to attack each and every American individually?

Burning the flag is certainly a "Shock Factor" demonstration... but to say that it is symbolicaly back-Handing all of America is a stretch... unless you feel you are best defined by the Flag... I would contend a believer who believes that they are best defined by the flag are trapsing into Idol worship....

[musicjaytee]

As long as no one gets hurt, sure it is...

I mean, if I made pictures of aborted babies and stuck them on peice of cardboard, do you think those women getting an abortion would think I was protesting peacefully?

They wouldn't I am sure of it... but so long as I don't harm them or their body It would be...
They may be offended by it, but it would be peaceful. Nothing is being destroyed...and the point of the protest is clear. There's an amendment that would get rid of flag burning.

...the right to assemble peacefully and express opinion, if that opinion is expressed clearly, e.g. the opinion is either written out legibly on a visible sign or item of clothing or is clearly depicted in an illustration.

Then, if someone wants to burn a flag while carrying a sign that says "America out of ______" or "America kills babies" or something, even though it is still destructive and disrespectful, at least it would make sense.

Of course, that's just a settlement. I still feel it should be illegal.

[musicjaytee]

Do you really think somone who is burning the flag means to attack each and every American individually?

Burning the flag is certainly a "Shock Factor" demonstration... but to say that it is symbolicaly back-Handing all of America is a stretch... unless you feel you are best defined by the Flag... I would contend a believer who believes that they are best defined by the flag are trapsing into Idol worship....
It doesn't attack each American individually. It attacks America's whole. I do not identify myself with the American flag...the American flag identifies itself with me. Burning the American flag says that you don't agree with a single thing that America does. No country's flag represents a single aspect of the country. It represents everything about a country, good and bad. If you burn the flag, you burn the good with the bad. You make the statement that the world would be better off without this piece of crap land that is taking air away from everyone else.

What statement is made when someone burns a cross? The cross in itself is just a symbol, it has no power in and of itself. But what does burning it mean?

[cheewiee]

Burning the American flag says that you don't agree with a single thing that America does.

Says who?

[cheewiee]

Then, if someone wants to burn a flag while carrying a sign that says "America out of ______" or "America kills babies" or something, even though it is still destructive and disrespectful, at least it would make sense.


Each and every protest I have seen on TV where an American Flag is being burned includes signs and chants as you have claimes...

I have never seen somone silently burn a flag in protest.. If you can show me where somone has done that please provide a link...

[musicjaytee]

Says who?
Logic. What else could a flag burning say?

[cheewiee]

Logic. What else could a flag burning say?

Ahh.. so you are assuming that when a US Citizen burns Old Glory, they are making a statement against EVERYTHING America Stands for...

Do you know what happens when you assume?

Most people protesting protest over One or two issues...

Like the WTO or an Unpopular war....

[musicjaytee]

Each and every protest I have seen on TV where an American Flag is being burned includes signs and chants as you have claimes...

I have never seen somone silently burn a flag in protest.. If you can show me where somone has done that please provide a link...
I did say that was a settlement. I still feel it should be illegal. I considered deleting that post, but I decided that I may as well keep it up. If this was a regular conversation I'd have to deal with speaking before I think, so I may as well deal with it here.

That post (my post about the 'new ammendment')is contradictory in itself, since I said it would get rid of flag burning, and then said it wouldn't. I meant that to go along with the effectiveness point. When someone burns a flag, how often does their message actually get across? It just irritates people. Obviously, we can't make laws based on irritation (although we really should). However, I do feel that burning a flag is not just a statement of protest. I do feel it borders on treason.

[cheewiee]

However, I do feel that burning a flag is not just a statement of protest. I do feel it borders on treason.

So then you belive somone should be executed for burning the flag...

[musicjaytee]

So then you belive somone should be executed for burning the flag...
haha...I said borders on.

[cheewiee]

However, I do feel that burning a flag is not just a statement of protest. I do feel it borders on treason.

Again, you find yourself in disagreement with the Constitution...

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.


Burning the Flag isn't levying war... it isn't adhearing to their enemies, nor giving them aid or comfort... So your belief doesn't hold Constitutional muster...

[musicjaytee]

Ahh.. so you are assuming that when a US Citizen burns Old Glory, they are making a statement against EVERYTHING America Stands for...

Do you know what happens when you assume?

Most people protesting protest over One or two issues...

Like the WTO or an Unpopular war....
Like I said, I do not believe that symbols themselves have any power...they just represent. The flag represents America...as a whole, not any single part. If they burn the flag as a symbol of what they are protesting, and the flag represents all of America, then yes, they are making a statement against ALL of America.

[cheewiee]

Like I said, I do not believe that symbols themselves have any power...they just represent. The flag represents America...as a whole, not any single part. If they burn the flag as a symbol of what they are protesting, and the flag represents all of America, then yes, they are making a statement against ALL of America.

Only because you belive the Flag represents ALL of america... What if they (The protesters) believe that the flag represents the corrupt Government....

[musicjaytee]

Again, you find yourself in disagreement with the Constitution...

Burning the Flag isn't levying war... it isn't adhearing to their enemies, nor giving them aid or comfort... So your belief doesn't hold Constitutional muster...
It BORDERS ON levying war. BORDERS ON does not mean it actually does so, it only means that if you reeeeeeally wanted to, it would be feasible to make it appear so, although it probably wouldn't hold much water. However, it does raise a few uneasy *flags.

Although a better stretch would be the giving our enemies comfort...since seeing images of Iraqis tearing down Saddam's statue or makiing other protests of the like gave us much comfort in the war....:D

[musicjaytee]

What if they (The protesters) believe that the flag represents the corrupt Government....
Talk about a stretch. So when the Olympics are held, all the flags represent ONLY the governments of the countries the athletes compete for? Come on.

[cheewiee]

It BORDERS ON levying war.

How so? How does one burning border on levying war.. it doesn't hold territory.. it doesn't harm individuals.. to call it boardering on war is to stretch the truth in Clinton Proportions...

Although a better stretch would be the giving our enemies comfort...since seeing images of Iraqis tearing down Saddam's statue or makiing other protests of the like gave us much comfort in the war....:D

While you MIGHT have an argument, if the protester is protesting a war, you have to prove the intent was to comfort the enemy... This is why John Kerry and what's her name didn't goto jail for their Vietnam era activities...

[cheewiee]

Talk about a stretch. So when the Olympics are held, all the flags represent ONLY the governments of the countries the athletes compete for? Come on.

You are talking about intent... You are saying that when Mr. Anti War Protester burns the flag, he intends to thumb his nose at all americans, When I belive it is possible he is simply protesting the actions of his Government... That's not a stretch whatsoever...

BTW, I don't care about the Olympics...

[musicjaytee]

How so? How does one burning border on levying war.. it doesn't hold territory.. it doesn't harm individuals.. to call it boardering on war is to stretch the truth in Clinton Proportions...
That's kind of what I said. I said you could stretch it if you really wanted to, but it wouldn't hold any water. However, it would raise some warning flags.

While you MIGHT have an argument, if the protester is protesting a war, you have to prove the intent was to comfort the enemy... This is why John Kerry and what's her name didn't goto jail for their Vietnam era activities...
My argument was more for humor's sake...thus the smiley.

[musicjaytee]

You are talking about intent... You are saying that when Mr. Anti War Protester burns the flag, he intends to thumb his nose at all americans, When I belive it is possible he is simply protesting the actions of his Government... That's not a stretch whatsoever...

BTW, I don't care about the Olympics...
Eh. I'm just saying that's what he says, whether he intends to or not. Kind of like stealing while wearing a WWJD bracelet. Whether or not you mean to, you say a lot about Christians with your actions.

If you want to protest war, burn a symbol of war. If you don't mean to protest America, don't burn the symbol of America.

[cheewiee]

That's kind of what I said. I said you could stretch it if you really wanted to, but it wouldn't hold any water. However, it would raise some warning flags.


My argument was more for humor's sake...thus the smiley.

I get that... I don't mean to be condensending...

I just see making something that is currently constitutionally protected free speech, something illegal as being VERY DANGEROUS... You have to either believe in the first Amdendment or you don't... If you want the right to Say what you want to say, protest how you want to protest, you have to go to the extreme to ensure that those whom you disagree with can say what they want to say, protest how they want to protest...

If this seemingly reasonable amdendment passes, what is to stop others? What happens when the will of the people turn against christianity.... By weakening the First Amdendment here and now, we weaken it for the future. Are you willing to gamble that? I am not... I am not willing to belive out leaders have the ability to say this far and no farther...

What happens when it becomes morally reprehensable to protest abortion clinics? What happens when it becomes morally represhensable to preach against sin...

We let the idiots do what they want' so long as it doesnt harm the property or body of others, to ensure that when our turn comes to speak, we have the same opportunity...

[cheewiee]

Eh. I'm just saying that's what he says, whether he intends to or not. Kind of like stealing while wearing a WWJD bracelet. Whether or not you mean to, you say a lot about Christians with your actions.

If you want to protest war, burn a symbol of war. If you don't mean to protest America, don't burn the symbol of America.


I do not mean to defend the practice... I really don't and I know that's what it sounds like i am doing... I am defending the right... We as americans under our first amendment and reenforced by the SCOTUS says that I can burn the flag to convey an idea....

ANY attempt to change that, not only sullys the flag but the consitution...

[musicjaytee]

I get that... I don't mean to be condensending...

I just see making something that is currently constitutionally protected free speech, something illegal as being VERY DANGEROUS... You have to either believe in the first Amdendment or you don't... If you want the right to Say what you want to say, protest how you want to protest, you have to go to the extreme to ensure that those whom you disagree with can say what they want to say, protest how they want to protest...

If this seemingly reasonable amdendment passes, what is to stop others? What happens when the will of the people turn against christianity.... By weakening the First Amdendment here and now, we weaken it for the future. Are you willing to gamble that? I am not... I am not willing to belive out leaders have the ability to say this far and no farther...

What happens when it becomes morally reprehensable to protest abortion clinics? What happens when it becomes morally represhensable to preach against sin...

We let the idiots do what they want' so long as it doesnt harm the property or body of others, to ensure that when our turn comes to speak, we have the same opportunity...
I totally understand where you're coming from, and I see your point. I wish I could say that logic would prevent it, but history has kind of proven otherwise.

You're right that this kind of ammendment would probably leave the door open to stupid laws. Look what happened in Canada with gay marriage...now it's illegal to speak out against gay marriage or homosexuality at all. Affirmative Action was needed to protect minorities from discrimination, now it's used (by SOME) to get their way and be lazy. Chances are, a law like this probably would lead to anti-opinion laws down the line. It's sad, really.

However, excluding the probable results due to stupid people, I feel that in the present situation, flag burning should be illegal. It's just the way I feel, and i can't help it.

Excellent arguments, tho, Cheewie. Excellent.

[musicjaytee]

I do not mean to defend the practice... I really don't and I know that's what it sounds like i am doing... I am defending the right... We as americans under our first amendment and reenforced by the SCOTUS says that I can burn the flag to convey an idea....

ANY attempt to change that, not only sullys the flag but the consitution...
Hmmm...I feel like the answer will be obvious, and I'm sure someone out there will be laughing at me, but what is the SCOTUS?

P.S. - You are entitled to defend the right, since it is a right. That's why I don't 'protest' gay marriage any more.

[cheewiee]

Hmmm...I feel like the answer will be obvious, and I'm sure someone out there will be laughing at me, but what is the SCOTUS?

P.S. - You are entitled to defend the right, since it is a right. That's why I don't 'protest' gay marriage any more.

Supreme Court of the United States

[musicjaytee]

Supreme Court of the United States
Aha. Thanks!

[Mugirl04]

I say yes, we still need to ban it. The only reason it even happens is because the person burning it knows that it is a major insult to those who have a deep respect for it. They don't burn it to save their son from the cold, they do it out of hatred.

To me, what she has done is no different. It is one thing to disagree with how the government does things, it is one thing to protest, but she took it even further than that. But then again, she was nothing more than a Liberal pawn. Go to the source.

As for car dealerships, I feel that's a bit out of perspective, but when people wear boxers and other things that are of flag print, I agree. The American flag is never supposed to touch the ground, so why is it ok for some guy to fart in his flag print boxers? Why is it ok for some fool to spill BBQ sause on his flag print shirt?


EDIT - I wanted to clarify what I didn't say about the car dealerships. Their flags aren't tattered because of protest and neither are they flying them tattered in a disrespectful way. Now, I do feel that if they have flags that are tattered or in some form of bad shape, they should fix the problem.
Firing squad? Just kidding, but I would suggest exile. I'm so sick of people in this nation protesting the nation itself. If you don't like this place, you can leave.

Agreed

You might want to ask a few guys in the military their perspective on this. I have a good friend that joined the Corp. Back in school, the flag was just another colored piece of cloth. After his time in the Corp., he shows the deepest respect and honor to that "piece of cloth."

(To satisfy my own curiosity, I am going to ask my friend about this, his perspective of the flag and how he feels about people burning it. I also have a friend in the Army currently in Iraq [someone besides Grank] and I will ask for his 2 cents too. If you would like to know what they have to say, let me know.)


Again, this goes back to what I said with quote 1. The person doing the burning is wanting to make the most offensive insult they can, this is why they burn it. They want to disrespect the very people that gave them that freedom. The flag stands for the freedoms they have, so to burn it is to protest those freedoms as well.
i argee we should ban it. I also think we should teach people the proper way to fly a flag.

[bdfwinn]

100 years ago when real men ran this country and citizens had some sense this was not an issue.

I don't think an amendment to the Constitution is necessary people just need to be taught respect for the flag at home.

As for me if the flag is being honored at a ball game or some other event and you have your hat on (men) near me I will ask you tol remove it.

By the way while I do not think we need a law against flag burning I do reserve my right to stamp out the fire and stamp out the flag burner as well.:D

Check this out. (if this was already posted sorry I read only every other page in this thread)

Bill

mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm .akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/library/open/features/monday_flag_350.wmv?media _type=wms&av_type=video&event_pk=486348&product=gen_video

[SacredHeart]

Do you really think somone who is burning the flag means to attack each and every American individually?

Do you really think they care who they offend? Their intent is to offend any and all. I have a hard time thinking they wake up the next morning worrying they offended the wrong people...



Burning the flag is certainly a "Shock Factor" demonstration... but to say that it is symbolicaly back-Handing all of America is a stretch... unless you feel you are best defined by the Flag... I would contend a believer who believes that they are best defined by the flag are trapsing into Idol worship....At what point, in all my postings, did I give you the impression that I identify myself with the flag before Christ? Must you take a persons thought to an unfounded conclusion simply to prove a point?

[bajagill]

It should matter to a christian........no, we should come along side them and attempt to show them at least a better way....then (prob.) have to remember to turn the other cheek as Paul instructs us.



Would love to continue, but I'm going to be late for w**k if I don't split. Check back w/ you later...
I wanted to bump this post of my own up so as to be sure it wasn't inadvertantly missed by Mr. Wookie. Am curious as to your reply.....

[middletree]

I wanted to bump this post of my own up so as to be sure it wasn't inadvertantly missed by Mr. Wookie. Am curious as to your reply.....
Paul didn't instruct us to turn the other cheek. Jesus did.

[Grank]

Grank says:

Flag burning shouldn't be illegal. however, that being said, if i see somebody burning a flag and there isn't anybody around i'm prolly gonna mess them up a little.

[bajagill]

Paul didn't instruct us to turn the other cheek. Jesus did.
My bad, you are correct, I was typing faster than I was thinking and did not catch that, thank you.

[cheewiee]

Do you really think they care who they offend? Their intent is to offend any and all. I have a hard time thinking they wake up the next morning worrying they offended the wrong people...

Yes, I think that when somone does that they have a target audience... That isn't to say that they aren't trying to garner as much controversy as possible, but again, it is jsut a statement...



At what point, in all my postings, did I give you the impression that I identify myself with the flag before Christ? Must you take a persons thought to an unfounded conclusion simply to prove a point?
I never said YOU did... I was making a blanket statement...

[cheewiee]

I wanted to bump this post of my own up so as to be sure it wasn't inadvertantly missed by Mr. Wookie. Am curious as to your reply.....

It wasn't inadvertantly missed, it was skipped over because asking me weather apologizing for bumping into somone on the subay is christian or not really isn't the point of the discussion...

[cheewiee]

Cheewiee I apologize for stating my opinion. I forgot that yours is the right one. I won't bother coming back in so don't worry I won't mess up and repeat the mistake here.

Is that it? I point out that some of your arguments are flawed and this is how you come back?

My opinion isn't necessarly the right one.. however I did back my opinion up with facts...

If your going to make the statement that flag burning is the same thing as levying war, you need to explain in a rational manner why you belive so...

[cheewiee]

Grank says:

Flag burning shouldn't be illegal. however, that being said, if i see somebody burning a flag and there isn't anybody around i'm prolly gonna mess them up a little.
Thank you Grank...

Who as I type is in the Middle East, fighting for what that Flag represents...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Grank says:

Flag burning shouldn't be illegal. however, that being said, if i see somebody burning a flag and there isn't anybody around i'm prolly gonna mess them up a little.

As much as this act disturbs me, especially to see that flag draped over the coffins of fallen service members, It shouldn't be illegal. However, Chris, as someone who is in the military to actually come out and say if there isn't anybody around, you would prolly mess them up a little is repulsive. Why would it matter if anyone was around, I'd do it with a crowd!!!! Shame on you Christopher!!!!!!!!!!!!:e ek:

[musicjaytee]

Is that it? I point out that some of your arguments are flawed and this is how you come back?

My opinion isn't necessarly the right one.. however I did back my opinion up with facts...

If your going to make the statement that flag burning is the same thing as levying war, you need to explain in a rational manner why you belive so...
I gotta agree Sisko...I even thanked Cheewie for his clean arguments.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

You might not agree with what Cheewiee has to say, or agree with his opinions. I can tell you we disagree on some things, pretty important things. However, at least when he makes a point, it's articulate, not degrading, and not arrogant. For as much as we disagree on some hot issues, That's why I respect him as much as I do, and can respect his arguments as well.

[Yippy]

Ah, you all are so much fun. This was a great read.:)

Do you really think somone who is burning the flag means to attack each and every American individually?

I don't think that someone who burns the flag means to attack each and every American. That would require too much thinking. They are probably doing it for attention and to show the people they hang with how cool they are. If you have the opportunity to actually ask the person why they are doing it, you'll probably get an answer that goes something like, "Because America sucks, man." Maybe you all in the rest of the US have experienced intelligent protesters, but in good ole CA where protesting has been an artform since the 60s at least, protesting is largely done for the cameras. I keep wanting to yell at my tie-dyed sisters and brothers, "YOU ARE THE ESTABLISHMENT PEOPLE!":p The only answer I get for anything around here is that "it sucks." Well...we all know that life's a beach...:p


I don't think the answer is to amend the Constitution. Let them have the right to burn the flag, and we all have the right to let them know what idiots they are.

For an old lady,
You gonna let him keep on gettin' away with that?

[Sam!]

You know what, despite the fact my post directed at Cheewiee reflects how I feel, I was wrong to post it inasmuch as the reason I posted it was because I didn't care to take teh time to articulate myself.

Chee,
We obviously (:rolleyes:) have different views about the role of the Constitution and legislation. It seems to me that you believe the government should not impose moral beliefs on people so as not to violate the rights of folks in the minority. I gather that your opinion is that the government should not legislate based on what it feels is right and wrong, because there are only certain "universal" "rights" and "morals" that need to be legislated. Not only that, but your responses to me seem to indicate that those who feel differently on this subject are wrong.

I feel that so long as this nation is grounded in the Constitution and its amendments, that her citizens owe her a certain level of respect. God has chosen governments to provide civil justice. And while our government is there to represent the people, I recognize that it does not always do a good job. You say that to burn the flag is simply an expression of disapproval of the government. Now, if I agreed with that, I would agree with your position.

However, I don't respect the flag because it represents the government as an institution. We don't fly the flag to represent George W., his executives, and Congress, and the SCOTUS. The flag represents all of us because WE are the nation.

Therefore, I do not see burning the flag as an expression of disapproval with an institution. It is, to me, an invective temper tantrum expressing hatred for this nation. I do not see a need to protect the right for this behavior. Saying that it is a slippery slope is not a valid argument to me. You could say that about a lot of things. Outlawing the molestation of children is a step toward the government regulating our sexual behaviors. Allowing THE MAN to tell me how fast I may travel on "public" roads that I helped pay for is oppressive because it tells ME how I am permitted to operate MY vehicle. Noise ordinances in the suburbs dictate how *I* am permitted to throw a party. That doesn't mean that I am afraid that next, I am going to be told what type of music I am allowed to play at my next social gathering.

But see, I advocate for a narrow and plain interpretation of the Constitution. That means there isn't a freedom of expression anyway. Which, while the First Amendment is often interpreted that way it has plenty of exceptions. Dress codes in schools, for example. Regulations on language permissible for broadcast. Restrictions I am allowed to use when referring to certain ethnic groups or persons of certain sexual orientation. NYC has laws that restrict cell phone use in automobiles...and that is a restriction on the way LITERAL speech may actually be conducted!

In many places, spitting on someone is considered an act of misdemeanor assault. From an objective standpoint this is nuts as it is by and large a harmless "expression". However, it is recognized for what it is: a personal assault because of what it means.

I find that saying that the government has no right to restrict flag burning is akin to saying they have no right to tell me what I can wear in public. You want to burn the flag in private in such a way that it is not made public, then I dont' have a problem with it being legal.

But flag burning says to me, "I hate this nation." It says to me "I support those who hate this nation." And I do not feel a burning desire to protect the right to say that. I have no problem with a man shouting from the rooftops "I hate the government!" This is above and beyond.

[Sam!]

musicjaytee,

Well I obv iously don't agree with you. If I had found his arguments to be as you said I wouldn't have posted what I said. But in reality... this has nothing to do with you and I don't particularly care who you agree with.

In fact, this issue isn't about "who i agree with"... it's about an issue, regarding 2 stances individuals either agree with or don't.

[Sam!]

Personally, if someone comes out in public and says "America sucks" (not the government, but the country)... I say revoke their citizenship and expel them. Exile them. Let them find another country that will take them. We need people to say "We have problems here and let's try and fix them." If you don't care enough to show any respect to the country, why should this country show you any respect?

[gatorcountry]

that is actually a great idea. I hate it when these idiots say how crappy our country is and how it sucks but yet they won't move out. It's like omg HOW STUPID CAN THEY BE!!! lol.

[mat1583]

Personally, if someone comes out in public and says "America sucks" (not the government, but the country)... I say revoke their citizenship and expel them. Exile them. Let them find another country that will take them.

If you feel this way, then you should move to China. I'm sure you'd do well there as a Chinese official.

-washboard

[bajagill]

It wasn't inadvertantly missed, it was skipped over because asking me weather apologizing for bumping into somone on the subay is christian or not really isn't the point of the discussion...

cheewiee,
Too bad.... I've tried to read all yours to the point that I understood them as best I could. Having said that, I have not yet read beyond the page this post ^ is on. I may be back to apologize, etc. You did miss my point, a few times in fact. I had assumed ( I know, I know...) you were acute enough, from your reasoning and arguments, that you would catch my drift. The only thing I have seen you use as the basis of almost all your answers/ arguments is the constitution. I'm not bashing the constitution, I respect what it represents greatly. But, I respect God's Word and what it teaches us for everyday living far more. To this juncture in the conversation(s) I have not seen a single instance in which you have even intimated that you have placed God's Word higher in your priorities than a man-made piece of paper. If I have inadvertantly missed such a post from you, please acept my profound apologies, and I will try harder to not make same mistake again.

Please feel free to PM me, if you wish, to continue this portion of the conversation as I no longer wish to do so on this thread. Too many distractions and rabbit trails come up in a medium of this type. Thank you for your time.

[bajagill]

If you feel this way, then you should move to China. I'm sure you'd do well there as a Chinese official.

-washboard
shame on you mat for editting out part of the post, taking his quote out of context and using it such a manner is poor manners and inflammatory. I would expect more from someone on these boards.

[Joshua24:15]

If you feel this way, then you should move to China. I'm sure you'd do well there as a Chinese official.

-washboard
What would be your response to someone who, every Sunday, walked into your church and did nothing but say 'This church sucks. This pastor sucks. You do everything wrong. Everyone who goes here sucks.'

Would you smile and nod and be content that he is unhappily exercising his right to free speech? Or would you quietly ask him to leave if he has nothing constructive to say?

That's the point the Cap'n was making.

[Sam!]

If you feel this way, then you should move to China. I'm sure you'd do well there as a Chinese official.

-washboard
matt,

If that is what you got from my post then you have a reading comprehension problem. The Chinese government has committed abomination after abomination and I am not advocating what they do. In fact, I believe the Chinese solution is to imprison or cause to "disappear" dissenters. I am simply compelling them to leave. If there is, in fact, nowhere they'd rather be then I believe they can conduct themselves with a little bit more respect to the society they are a part of. Be a part of the solution, not the problem right?

Of course what you in your haste to make a witty unsubstantiated retort to a post that I put a lot of time and thought into... is that I do NOT have a problem with people that dissent from our government. In fact, they can come out and say "I think George W. is a homophobic idiot monkeybutt and every congressional rep is corrupt and the whole government is retarded." See, that is a problem between one person and one or more other people. Fine. Say it. Print it. Disseminate it via the media however you desire. I do not believe burning the flag is a right that needs to be protected and your basis for disagreeing is based on your opinion of what it means... just like mine is.

[Sam!]

shame on you mat for editting out part of the post, taking his quote out of context and using it such a manner is poor manners and inflammatory. I would expect more from someone on these boards.
"Part of the post." ... that's generous. He gutted the post. But thanks ;)

[Sam!]

What would be your response to someone who, every Sunday, walked into your church and did nothing but say 'This church sucks. This pastor sucks. You do everything wrong. Everyone who goes here sucks.'

Would you smile and nod and be content that he is unhappily exercising his right to free speech? Or would you quietly ask him to leave if he has nothing constructive to say?

That's the point the Cap'n was making.
Completely different situation. I don't think this represents my post at all.

[Yippy]

But flag burning says to me, "I hate this nation." It says to me "I support those who hate this nation." And I do not feel a burning desire to protect the right to say that. I have no problem with a man shouting from the rooftops "I hate the government!" This is above and beyond.
I can see your point here.

I wonder exactly what our flag burners and government haters want to change about the US...

BTW, I don't have a problem with a US citizen being unhappy with the US, however I would prefer they behave respectfullly and be ready to be a part of the solution with at least an intelligent explanation for their distress. But that's asking a lot, I know...

[bajagill]

I can see your point here.

I wonder exactly what our flag burners and government haters want to change about the US...

BTW, I don't have a problem with a US citizen being unhappy with the US, however I would prefer they behave respectfullly and be ready to be a part of the solution with at least an intelligent explanation for their distress. But that's asking a lot, I know...


Very well put sister!

[kiwisongbird]

LOL, I keep going to put posts here but I can't - I'm too much NOT American - but I do love you all and am continuing to read this - with a smile on my face - at least I'm enjoying my mental posts - they will remain unposted... :) :)

[Grank]

As much as this act disturbs me, especially to see that flag draped over the coffins of fallen service members, It shouldn't be illegal. However, Chris, as someone who is in the military to actually come out and say if there isn't anybody around, you would prolly mess them up a little is repulsive. Why would it matter if anyone was around, I'd do it with a crowd!!!! Shame on you Christopher!!!!!!!!!!!!:e ek:
you make a good point... but i wouldn't do anything violent in a crowd as there may be children. i'd follow them until they were alone. is that any better?

[kiwisongbird]

...and I guess that's your freedom of speech/action in America, Land of the Free - or maybe you need to put some smilies or rolleye or winks or something on these post so we don't think you really mean it? :) :)


um a question, have lots of people been burning flags in America lately?

I was wondering too, maybe if they have been, maybe it's not so much a statement of, "I hate America" maybe it could be a statement of, "Is America really all she is made out to be?" - I dunno, has anyone asked them? I would think that to burn the flag they would have to be really ticked off, and maybe feel like no-one is listening to them anyway or that no- one would if they tried.. I dunno, maybe it's just me with my 'everything should be fair' brain...

[cheewiee]

You know what, despite the fact my post directed at Cheewiee reflects how I feel, I was wrong to post it inasmuch as the reason I posted it was because I didn't care to take teh time to articulate myself.

Chee,
We obviously (:rolleyes:) have different views about the role of the Constitution and legislation. It seems to me that you believe the government should not impose moral beliefs on people so as not to violate the rights of folks in the minority. I gather that your opinion is that the government should not legislate based on what it feels is right and wrong, because there are only certain "universal" "rights" and "morals" that need to be legislated.

No, I belive that there are certain rights that need to be legislated to prevent a future government rising up and abusing it's power. THIS IS WHY THE FIRST AMENDMENT EXISTS.



Not only that, but your responses to me seem to indicate that those who feel differently on this subject are wrong.

And this is different from your take How?

Do you not belive that I am wrong in this issue.. We are here to discuss.. I brought facts... you brought oppinion...

It is a FACT that the SCOTUS views Expression as protect speech, you argue back that you do not belive so...

So I am sorry if I use the fact that an ENTIRE branch of our Government interprets the Constitution the same way I do...

But flag burning says to me, "I hate this nation." It says to me "I support those who hate this nation." And I do not feel a burning desire to protect the right to say that. I have no problem with a man shouting from the rooftops "I hate the government!" This is above and beyond.

Ultimatly this is the main point of your argument... To you the flag is a Symbol of this nation.... Who are you to tell me what the Flag Represents... You are no different from the countless number of people who say the Stars And Bars are nothing more than a symbol of hate. You cannot tell others what the flag means, it means different things to different people. While to you it represents this nation in its entirty, to some it represents a corrupt system.. to others it represents an unjust war.. and even to others it might represent state sanctioned murder...

[cheewiee]

um a question, have lots of people been burning flags in America lately?
...

NO.. There has not been a rash of flag burning.. What this is, is a ploy the SAME EXACT ploy used by politicians used EVERY election Cycle...It's an emotional issue that gets people all rilled up...

It is a vote getter and what is more disgusting than burning the flag are the Law makers who sit on their butts doing virtually nothing YEAR ROUND using this as an election year issue.. CYCLE AFTER CYCLE AFTER CYCLE AFTER CYCLE.... They dump on the flag by using this issue to cover their complete ineptitude...

[kiwisongbird]

...that's kinda what I was trying to say - we can't presume what people are thinking when they do something like burn a flag... we don't know where they come from, what they have lived through... just as they don't have a clue about how you feel to see them burn the flag...

I would imagine that if America is the Land of the Free, then people should have the freedom to burn their flag so long as it doesn't endanger life or property.

[cheewiee]

I would imagine that if America is the Land of the Free, then people should have the freedom to burn their flag so long as it doesn't endanger life or property.
EXACTLY...

[kiwisongbird]

Coming from a culture that is almost totally non-patriotic (truly I do!!) and looking from the outside in at American patriotism, I think this is another of those cases where patriotism may be taking over from correct interpretation of the First Amendment?? IMHO :cool:

[cheewiee]

Coming from a culture that is almost totally non-patriotic (truly I do!!) and looking from the outside in at American patriotism, I think this is another of those cases where patriotism may be taking over from correct interpretation of the First Amendment?? IMHO :cool:

In the 1950's at the height of the "Red Scare" Patriotism, and Christianity were merged to form this Nationalistic Religion, that since the 1950's has slowly turned Secular. We now have this system of beliefs in place that makes somone a bad person if they don't like America... Unamerican became the new Heretic...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

you make a good point... but i wouldn't do anything violent in a crowd as there may be children. i'd follow them until they were alone. is that any better?

Yeah, that makes sense, good point Chris.


Oh, and Captain, I agree with you, if you don't like it here, get out. Period.

Matthew, be nice. That was a great point and had nothing to do with obtaining the requirements to become a chineese official:rolleyes:

[Grank]

i think you're a bad person if you're american and you don't like america. that doesn't mean i think you should be legally prosecuted for peacefully showing your views. personally prosecution by individuals however is a different story. whether it be me not feeling like serving them in my private buisness, not inviting them to my birthday party, starting a calm rally to protest their hate or maybe even picket their places of buisness in a peaceful manner... i reserve the right to do so. as long as both views are known and understood by all parties then i see no problem.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

In the 1950's at the height of the "Red Scare" Patriotism, and Christianity were merged to form this Nationalistic Religion, that since the 1950's has slowly turned Secular. We now have this system of beliefs in place that makes somone a bad person if they don't like America... Unamerican became the new Heretic...

So true.


If the government someday becomes something I dislike and am completely against, I should have a right to burn the flag in protest. Sure, we say "no" right now, because it's in good (relevant) condition and there's a "Christian" in office. So anyone who burns a flag will personally offend those who are happy at the way things are right now. There may come a day when you'll want to protest and burn the flag yourself, and just like today's people have a right to, so should you.

[Grank]

...and I guess that's your freedom of speech/action in America, Land of the Free - or maybe you need to put some smilies or rolleye or winks or something on these post so we don't think you really mean it? :) :)



hmmm... i've thought of using smilies before, but as weverything i usually is say is with a straight face whether i'm joking or not i don't feel right putting smilies. for the record though, even though i usually am joking, i wasn't that time. i actually would hurt somebody if i saw them burn a flag. one time a guy ripped the flag off of my uniform. (yeah, they're velcro now) he was quickly grabbed, pressed against a wall and lifted off of his feet. i said in a very calm voice "how about you don't mess with my flag. take my name tape, take the us army tape... don't ever touch my flag again." he gave me my flag back and we went our seperate ways. i doubt he's grabbed anybody elses flag since.

i still don't think burning an american flag should be illegal.

[coldcupofjoe]

burn flag burners?

[Sam!]

I just spent about 20 minutes writing a post. It is lost in cyberspace after I got some "you are not authorized" message, was forced to log-in and then told the thread didn't exist... so if mods were messing with the thread... well...

Cheewiee says, "In the 1950's at the height of the "Red Scare" Patriotism, and Christianity were merged to form this Nationalistic Religion, that since the 1950's has slowly turned Secular. We now have this system of beliefs in place that makes somone a bad person if they don't like America... Unamerican became the new Heretic..." I don't think you are a bad person if you don't like the United States. But you are a bad American if you hate (not disagree with, but hate) America. And I, too, have a problem with the way that Christianity and "Patriotism" have sort of co-opted each other. I do not believe what I am saying here falls into that, so I am not going to address it.

Chee, you are judging my opinion based on your opinion. We clearly have different beliefs on how the government should operate, and your opinion is just as valid as mine. But to dismiss my reasoning because you have a different philosophy does not fall under the domain of "discussion." That equates to telling me what my opinion should be, and the fact is that there is not a right answer. I will admit this: based on precedent, I do not believe this amendment should be ratified. But I believe that somewhere along the way of the last 200+ years we have strayed.

The FACT is that your statement that flag-burning is a right falling in the category of "certain rights that need to be legislated to prevent a future government rising up and abusing it's power" is an OPINION backed by SCOTUS precedent. But their opinion is not infallible. They ruled slavery as OK for how long? My disagreement with the Supreme Court does not invalidate my opinion. If I said the Supreme Court would approve of this amendment if it had a choice, then I would be wrong.

Now on to some more facts. I did a little research to back up some of my positions which I did not originally realize were up for debate.

Wikipedia: "One of the most influential doctrines in history is that all humans are divided into groups called nations." Nations are therefore made up of people.

Wikipedia: "A flag is a piece of coloured cloth flown from a pole or mast, usually for purposes of signalling or identification...One of the most popular uses of a flag is to symbolize a nation..."

As Old Glory is our National Flag and an official national symbol its intrinsic meaning is to represent the people of the United States. Any other meaning attributed to the flag (freedom, corruption, democracy, government, just or unjust war, victory, etc.) is ascribed to it by individuals.

Burning the flag is then at face value a hateful attack on the American people. Symbolically, it isn't their flag to burn. It's our shared flag.

[Sam!]

burn flag burners?
are they made of wood? we would have to see if they float first.

[Grank]

but to be a country (not a nation) there has to be more than just people. it's been a while but i'll see if i can remember what they are. i think they are five: people, land, government and um... um... yeah, i forget(legitimacy and authority maybe???). i feel that our country's flag represents more than just the people of America. it represents everything in our country. there are many different nations of people in the united states. there are many different nations of people in iraq. there are many different nations of people in isreal, spain, france, england, italy, almost any free country. i don't think our flag should be so generalized. i don't feel any country's flag should be so generalized.

i still see no reason to legal punish someone for burning what i stand for, as long as there is no physical harm to anything that is not yours.

cap'n, sorry about losing your post... i know how that feels.

[Grank]

are they made of wood? we would have to see if they float first.
i see you are learned in the sciences

[cheewiee]

But you are a bad American if you hate (not disagree with, but hate) America. Wikipedia: "One of the most influential doctrines in history is that all humans are divided into groups called nations." Nations are therefore made up of people.

Wikipedia: "A flag is a piece of coloured cloth flown from a pole or mast, usually for purposes of signalling or identification...One of the most popular uses of a flag is to symbolize a nation..."

As Old Glory is our National Flag and an official national symbol its intrinsic meaning is to represent the people of the United States. Any other meaning attributed to the flag (freedom, corruption, democracy, government, just or unjust war, victory, etc.) is ascribed to it by individuals.

Burning the flag is then at face value a hateful attack on the American people. Symbolically, it isn't their flag to burn. It's our shared flag.

I boiled your post down to the essentials here...

You make a strong case that the flag represents the nation.. And your right, a flag to many represents the nation... But who leads the nation? It is the Government... Who benefits the most out of flag waving? It's the politicians...

Again I must ask, who are you to tell others what the flag must mean?

And before this conversation goes any further answer me these two questions...

1. What is desecrating the flag?
2. What punishment should exist for desecrating the flag?

[Grank]

if there were to be a coup and somehow or another and a dictator were to rise to power, i would want to burn the flag.

[mat1583]

matt,

I am simply compelling them to leave.

I say revoke their citizenship and expel them. Exile them. Let them find another country that will take them.



Hmm, somehow I find a conflict between these two statements. Are you "compelling" someone when you force them to leave?

If someone says "America Sucks" because maybe they don't agree with gov't policy, then you would have them exiled and revoke their citizenship? Think about it...if you start there, where do you end? If the gov't starts exiling people because some don't agree with their foreign policy or maybe the extreme taxation, have them exiled. What about instead of exiling, just imprisoning them for saying something blasphemous (sp?) about America?

Yeah, I admit that may statement may have been a little harsh and I did edit out the rest of your post. The statement I made wasn't necessarily pointed directly towards you. It was pointed towards the idea of having a government start to exile people because they say something about America sucks.

If you want a police state, then I suppose your statement is a truthful one...but personally I do not want a police state. I do not want a country that can dictate how you feel about policy, government, taxation, etc. I have the right to express that opinion in America and it should stay that way. And if you want it to stay that way, then you will have to put up with the "America sucks" opinions. If you want a police state, then go ahead and begin exiling those who don't like the way the United States is running things. Do you think the Chinese government started out silencing and imprisoning people? They started out by exiling a whole group of people. Ever heard of Tibet in Exile?

-washboard

[musicjaytee]

Here's the reasoning I figured out. Burning the flag is seen by many as an act of hate. Very few would deny that. However, the KKK is still allowed to assemble and hold rallies.

I don't think the constitution was ever meant to enforce morality, but peace. (establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty). Afte reconsideration, I believe that speaking out against the government very well may have been intended in the first ammendment, since they were in the mentality of being anything but England.

If someone is going to sit and crab about America, I do wonder why they don't leave. I admit that I feel like saying "then go somewhere else". However, when I was on a family vacation in Florida, we stopped in this souvenir shop (that was open to the public and in a public strip mall), and found towels and shirts with naked women and disgusting phrases all over the walls. Being a very family-oriented area, my dad made a comment to the salesman (I was 11 and my sister was 9) that maybe he shouldn't have that stuff mixed in with kid-friendly stuff. The man looked out at our license plate and said
"You're from Illinois? Go back where you came from. Go back where you came from."

[Grank]

but then again at the same time our gov't is to be the voice of the people. if the majority of the people want to outlaw the burning of the american flag, i guess it would then become illegal now woudln't it. not that i think it would be a good step...

[mat1583]

but then again at the same time our gov't is to be the voice of the people. if the majority of the people want to outlaw the burning of the american flag, i guess it would then become illegal now woudln't it. not that i think it would be a good step...

Partially, yes. But what happens when the voice of the people becomes misguided?

example: Alcohol prohibition. Enough people wanted it that the constitution was amended, but it was later repealed because it wasn't going to work out at all.

-washboard

[Grank]

Partially, yes. But what happens when the voice of the people becomes misguided?

example: Alcohol prohibition. Enough people wanted it that the constitution was amended, but it was later repealed because it wasn't going to work out at all.

-washboard
misguided according to who though... the minority? would you say that it would be the job of the righteous few to enforce freedom, justice and equality on the many who would want nothing of it? when given "freedom" would you not have the "freedom" to reject it?

[Grank]

also, i don't see any decision made by the united states government as being of the people. it's hard to be the voice of the people when you only have around 6-10% of the people actually vote for you.

[mat1583]

misguided according to who though... the minority? would you say that it would be the job of the righteous few to enforce freedom, justice and equality on the many who would want nothing of it? when given "freedom" would you not have the "freedom" to reject it?

I believe the first guide to whether or not the people are misguided (at least in the US) would be the United States constitution and the Bill of Rights.

-washboard

[Grank]

that would be the opinion of only a few men who's views are constantly being challanged and aren't always winning. their views are not without error... well yeah mullins, they're human... anyway, in my head i still come back to freedom. what is freedom? what would a perfect gov't be? should a gov't of people follow the rules of God? should a gov't be as demanding as God? should a gov't show mercy? if so, in what way? if people are free, should you force righteousness on them? if so, in what way? does a democracy that is fully represented have the right to turn itself into something else? should the people have the power to say that any law can be or cannot be? is it right to let people choose things that aren't good for them physically, spiritually, mentally, etc.? should a gov't force other gov'ts to see their version of right?(force doens't nec. mean physical) i don't have an answer to any of these questions... sometimes i think i do, but then i see it from another angle and i become unsure again. people say "WWJD" but honestly i don't think Jesus would really care about what the gov't does.

[musicjaytee]

that would be the opinion of only a few men who's views are constantly being challanged and aren't always winning. their views are not without error... well yeah mullins, they're human... anyway, in my head i still come back to freedom. what is freedom? what would a perfect gov't be? should a gov't of people follow the rules of God? should a gov't be as demanding as God? should a gov't show mercy? if so, in what way? if people are free, should you force righteousness on them? if so, in what way? does a democracy that is fully represented have the right to turn itself into something else? should the people have the power to say that any law can be or cannot be? is it right to let people choose things that aren't good for them physically, spiritually, mentally, etc.? should a gov't force other gov'ts to see their version of right?(force doens't nec. mean physical) i don't have an answer to any of these questions... sometimes i think i do, but then i see it from another angle and i become unsure again. people say "WWJD" but honestly i don't think Jesus would really care about what the gov't does.
I applaud.

[cheewiee]

but then again at the same time our gov't is to be the voice of the people. if the majority of the people want to outlaw the burning of the american flag, i guess it would then become illegal now woudln't it. not that i think it would be a good step...

This is why we have the bill of rights... To protect the rights of the Minority..

Democracy without a bill of rights isn't free... When we remove those rights democracy becomes a tyranny of the majority...

[cheewiee]

If someone is going to sit and crab about America, I do wonder why they don't leave. I admit that I feel like saying "then go somewhere else."

Ok.. I am using your post Music, because it is very plainly stated, but this is directed towards the whole, leave crowd..

Have you ever tried to live in another country? Short of being a 2nd or 3rd Generation American, it is virtually impossible... Do you know all of those mexicans trying to get into this country? Do you know why they are doing it illegally? because legally moving to another country is very hard...

Second, Burning the flag and hatred... Someone protesting is trying to change... If somone REALLY hated America, would they bother protesting?

When the Pre Rev War protests broke out, it was to garner momentum for change... It was only when change was seen as being impossible when independance became a viable option..

[Yippy]

Second, Burning the flag and hatred... Someone protesting is trying to change... If somone REALLY hated America, would they bother protesting?


I personally feel that they do it for the attention. I applaud people who are unhappy with the system who actually do something more than bring attention to themselves. Also, it's one thing to complain and another to complain and affect change. Someone burning the flag doesn't inspire me to go out and support them. I also see the flag as representing those who've given their life's blood to make this country what it is. And with all it's flaws, the US seems to be where a whole lot of people want to be. I'm in agreement, though, that we need to protect the right to be unhappy. If we didn't have that right, slavery would probably still be legal.

[cheewiee]

I personally feel that they do it for the attention. I applaud people who are unhappy with the system who actually do something more than bring attention to themselves. Also, it's one thing to complain and another to complain and affect change. Someone burning the flag doesn't inspire me to go out and support them. I also see the flag as representing those who've given their life's blood to make this country what it is. And with all it's flaws, the US seems to be where a whole lot of people want to be. I'm in agreement, though, that we need to protect the right to be unhappy. If we didn't have that right, slavery would probably still be legal.

Or speaking british... ;)

I agree that one can view the flag as representing those who have given their life's blood to make this country what it is... But I also see how one could view the flag as being representative of Imperialism, Corruption, or a host of other things.

[Sam!]

Hmm, somehow I find a conflict between these two statements. Are you "compelling" someone when you force them to leave?mat:
from the American Heritage Dictionary
com·pel (kəm-pĕl')
tr.v., -pelled, -pel·ling, -pels.
1. To force, drive, or constrain: Duty compelled the soldiers to volunteer for the mission.
2. To necessitate or pressure by force; exact: An energy crisis compels fuel conservation. See synonyms at force.

If someone says "America Sucks" because maybe they don't agree with gov't policy, then you would have them exiled and revoke their citizenship? Think about it...if you start there, where do you end? If the gov't starts exiling people because some don't agree with their foreign policy or maybe the extreme taxation, have them exiled. What about instead of exiling, just imprisoning them for saying something blasphemous (sp?) about America? Because there is a distinction between what America is and our government, or any aspect. I can say that my wife is a poor football player and that is not a valuation of her. Now, if I made that comment about my wife to a football player, he might perceive it as a valuation of, but it is not in and of itself. So, if one has a severe problem with this nation then do what they did for thousands of years... expel them. Government does not equal America. Free enterprise does not equal America. Religion, Christianity, George W., none of that equates to America and therefore the flag. If you have a problem with the government, don't burn the flag. Find another way. Because the flag doesn't belong to the government, it belongs to America.

Yeah, I admit that may statement may have been a little harsh and I did edit out the rest of your post. The statement I made wasn't necessarily pointed directly towards you. It was pointed towards the idea of having a government start to exile people because they say something about America sucks.This is true. The statement was made directly at me. And I never said anything about exiling people who have a problem with something about America. I was commenting on those have a problem with America herself. You have stated facts but I am not sure why. We've been over what you said. If you want to apologize, apologize. If you stand by your remarks (which you seem to be doing), then you are still out of line. Take your pick.

[Sam!]

Or speaking british... ;)

I agree that one can view the flag as representing those who have given their life's blood to make this country what it is... But I also see how one could view the flag as being representative of Imperialism, Corruption, or a host of other things.
Additional angle.

It is in the best interest of the people of the United States (POTUS from now on) to preserve those same United States. As such, so long as her core principle of freedom (though various expressions of that may come and go) I find it permissible for certain specific duties to be required of American citizens. One such duty is respect for the flag. If you have a problem with this government, you can express that in a host of other means and I will not have a problem with it. Another set of duties we already find under the idea of treason. Specific duties, laid out in the Constitution.


Question: what would happen if a state were to pass a resolution declaring that the state flag officially represents all people of the state, and therefore desecration of said flag is not a protected right?

The Constitution has been amended & interpreted in such a way as to make any punishment for desecrating this state's flag impermissible & unconstitutional. How do you like that concerning original intent of the Constitution?

[musicjaytee]

The Constitution has been amended & interpreted in such a way as to make any punishment for desecrating this state's flag impermissible & unconstitutional. How do you like that concerning original intent of the Constitution?
Wasn't the constitution written by a bunch of treasonous flag burners?

[Sam!]

Wasn't the constitution written by a bunch of treasonous flag burners?
Not sure where you are going with that from my post, but I'm not sure if they burned flags. Either way, by signing the declaration of independence they would have been executed in England as traitors. I'm not in favor of that. What's your point? I'm not advocating execution for people who disagree with my political views! If you are not going to accept that I actually do think there is a right to free speech then this posting is without any sort of point.

[mat1583]

mat:
from the American Heritage Dictionary
com·pel (kəm-pĕl')
tr.v., -pelled, -pel·ling, -pels.
1. To force, drive, or constrain: Duty compelled the soldiers to volunteer for the mission.
2. To necessitate or pressure by force; exact: An energy crisis compels fuel conservation. See synonyms at force.


I stand corrected, as I guess I must have had a different connotation in this crazy head of mine.


Because there is a distinction between what America is and our government, or any aspect. I can say that my wife is a poor football player and that is not a valuation of her. Now, if I made that comment about my wife to a football player, he might perceive it as a valuation of, but it is not in and of itself. So, if one has a severe problem with this nation then do what they did for thousands of years... expel them. Government does not equal America. Free enterprise does not equal America. Religion, Christianity, George W., none of that equates to America and therefore the flag. If you have a problem with the government, don't burn the flag. Find another way. Because the flag doesn't belong to the government, it belongs to America.

This is true. The statement was made directly at me. And I never said anything about exiling people who have a problem with something about America. I was commenting on those have a problem with America herself. You have stated facts but I am not sure why. We've been over what you said. If you want to apologize, apologize. If you stand by your remarks (which you seem to be doing), then you are still out of line. Take your pick.

"Problem with America herself"? What on earth is that supposed to mean. Are you saying that 'America' is just some abstract idea that is symbolized by a piece of cloth and that if someone has a problem with it, we should exile them? I guess I just don't understand what you mean by this whole "America" business.

When I talk about America, I'm talking about the United States of America, its government, its citizens, etc. I'm not talking about some abstact thought. When someone hates America, they don't hate just an abstract thought. Maybe they are unhappy with the government, maybe the free market of America (not really free), maybe the rights we have...but someone who just goes out and says they hate America and has no reasoning is just a fool.

So are you exiling the fools or the people who have justified grievances about the United States of America?

And if you are saying exile the people that have justified grievances with the way America works or something "about" America, then indeed I stand by my remarks. If you start kicking out people that think something about America is being done the wrong way, then you have a country that is joining the ranks of China, North Korea, and other communist states. Is that how you want OUR 'America'?

-washboard

[musicjaytee]

Not sure where you are going with that from my post, but I'm not sure if they burned flags. Either way, by signing the declaration of independence they would have been executed in England as traitors. I'm not in favor of that. What's your point? I'm not advocating execution for people who disagree with my political views! If you are not going to accept that I actually do think there is a right to free speech then this posting is without any sort of point.
All I'm saying is that we can't exactly know for sure the original intent of the writers of the constitution, seeing as how they're dead. Yeah, we can piece it together using logic, but we can't know for sure. You made a comment on the intended meaning of the constitution, I made a comment that it was written by people not satisfied with their own government.

I was one of the main people arguing for the criminalization of flag burning. I think it's a horrible act. However, outside of offending people and having their message be missed because of its nature, it doesn't harm anyone. Crappy as it may be, it's just another statement made by extremists trying to get a rise. If we just ignore it as 'stupid people', it won't last long.

[musicjaytee]

"Problem with America herself"? What on earth is that supposed to mean. Are you saying that 'America' is just some abstract idea that is symbolized by a piece of cloth and that if someone has a problem with it, we should exile them? I guess I just don't understand what you mean by this whole "America" business.

When I talk about America, I'm talking about the United States of America, its government, its citizens, etc. I'm not talking about some abstact thought. When someone hates America, they don't hate just an abstract thought. Maybe they are unhappy with the government, maybe the free market of America (not really free), maybe the rights we have...but someone who just goes out and says they hate America and has no reasoning is just a fool.

So are you exiling the fools or the people who have justified grievances about the United States of America?

And if you are saying exile the people that have justified grievances with the way America works or something "about" America, then indeed I stand by my remarks. If you start kicking out people that think something about America is being done the wrong way, then you have a country that is joining the ranks of China, North Korea, and other communist states. Is that how you want OUR 'America'?

-washboard
I think he meant America as a whole, not any specific item. The French (in general of course...well...specific to Paris) would fall into the category of hating America 'herself'. If you go to Paris as an American, unless you speak French VERY well, you will be treated like crap.

I think the people being 'kicked out' would be the bellyaching fools who won't lift the spoon to their mouth to keep from starving. The people who are unemployed and blame the 'system' instead of their alcoholism. The people who feel that America owes them for making it what it is and that they are the most important person in the world. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he meant.

[mat1583]

I think he meant America as a whole, not any specific item. The French (in general of course...well...specific to Paris) would fall into the category of hating America 'herself'. If you go to Paris as an American, unless you speak French VERY well, you will be treated like crap.

I think the people being 'kicked out' would be the bellyaching fools who won't lift the spoon to their mouth to keep from starving. The people who are unemployed and blame the 'system' instead of their alcoholism. The people who feel that America owes them for making it what it is and that they are the most important person in the world. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he meant.

Well, I'll let the Captain confirm that. But if it's true, then we simply had a misunderstanding. I thought he was talking about people that strongly disliked America because of certain things (like taxation, politics, etc.). An example would be like banning someone from the Third Day boards just because they really dislike the band Third Day because they put out an album like Wire that isn't outwardly pure worship music. Does that make sense?

-washboard

[Sam!]

I am not saying kick out people with specific problems about things like government. I do not know how else to say it people! America = first and foremost her citizens. So to me, if you "hate America" you hate one of two things... either the concept of freedom, or the collective citizens. So if you hate all of us, then go away. If you hate freedom, then we simply revoke your right to it. Why waste it? How many other ways can i say this?????

[Grank]

This is why we have the bill of rights... To protect the rights of the Minority..

Democracy without a bill of rights isn't free... When we remove those rights democracy becomes a tyranny of the majority...
but if the people want to do away with the Bill of Rights should they have the power to do so? the bill of rights was written by man. is it to remain unchanged forever?

[cheewiee]

but if the people want to do away with the Bill of Rights should they have the power to do so? the bill of rights was written by man. is it to remain unchanged forever?

In my oppinion.. No... Our Government or Citizenry should be unable to undermine the bill of rights...

What rights are listed in the Bill of Rights..

1 Right to Free Speech..
2 Right to Press
3 Right to Assembly
4 Freedom of Religion
5 Right to Due Process
6 Right to a Jury Trial
7 Right against unwarrented Search and Seizure
8 Right to not have to house troops

Why would any of those change?

[Sam!]

In my oppinion.. No... Our Government or Citizenry should be unable to undermine the bill of rights...

What rights are listed in the Bill of Rights..

1 Right to Free Speech..
2 Right to Press
3 Right to Assembly
4 Freedom of Religion
5 Right to Due Process
6 Right to a Jury Trial
7 Right against unwarrented Search and Seizure
8 Right to not have to house troops

Why would any of those change? How do you feel then about the amendments that were in the bill of rights but were not ratified?

[cheewiee]

How do you feel then about the amendments that were in the bill of rights but were not ratified?

I will answer your question with a question.. How do you feel about the books that didn't make the bible?:rolleyes:

[kiwisongbird]

MMmmm, I figure if they take away the freedom of speech or freedom to protest, who is to say they won't work on freedom of religion - and judging by some of the comments in one of the other threads, next thing freedom of the press as well....scarey :eek:

[Sam!]

I will answer your question with a question.. How do you feel about the books that didn't make the bible?:rolleyes:
So much for discussion. We could have all saved one another a lot of time if we had just jumped right into the eye-rolling.

[cheewiee]

So much for discussion. We could have all saved one another a lot of time if we had just jumped right into the eye-rolling.

Dude you asked me about the other Amendments that were not ratified...

Do you know what those Amendments were?

Congressional apportionment
See also: Congressional Apportionment Amendment
The first of the proposed but failed Amendments, known as the Congressional Apportionment Amendment, would have established the ratio of representation to population in the House:

"Article the first .... After the first enumeration required by the first article of the Constitution, there shall be one Representative for every thirty thousand, until the number shall amount to one hundred, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall be not less than one hundred Representatives, nor less than one Representative for every forty thousand persons, until the number of Representatives shall amount to two hundred; after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than two hundred Representatives, nor more than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons."

The Congressional Apportionment Amendment was ratified by the legislatures of only eleven states—it was rejected by lawmakers in Delaware on January 28, 1790, (Delaware's copy of the Bill of Rights notes "Resolved, that the first article be postponed.")[26] and no action is known to have occurred with regard to this particular Amendment by legislators in Connecticut, Georgia, or Massachusetts. Kentucky became the eleventh state to ratify this proposal, in 1791, however, by then there were fifteen states and twelve were required for ratification.[27] Technically, this proposed Amendment is still pending before the States.



From Wiki

and

Congressional compensation
See also: Twenty-seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution
The second, pertaining to changes in the compensation of members of Congress, stated,

"Article the second .... No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened."

This proposal was ratified by six States between 1789 and 1791 (Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Delaware, Vermont, and Virginia). It was reconsidered two hundred years later, between 1983 and 1992, and was ratified as of May 5, 1992, as the Twenty-seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution.[28][29]

Several public officials, including James Madison and Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, retained the confusing practice of referring to each of the ten amendments in the Bill of Rights by the enumeration found in the first draft.


So you asked me what I think about portions of the bill of rights that had very little to do with "Rights" in an attempt to defuse my argument about the rights protected about the consitition... That is why your post rated a :rolleyes:

[Sam!]

My point is that who defines which rights are the ones the people should have no right to repeal?

[cheewiee]

My point is that who defines which rights are the ones the people should have no right to repeal?

The ones that protect the minority from a Tyranny of the Majority... Which is what this nation would become if you remove the Bill of Rights...

[Sam!]

Who decides what equates to tyranny? Tyranny is subjective as it involves justices (well, the extreme lack thereof).

[cheewiee]

Who decides what equates to tyranny? Tyranny is subjective as it involves justices (well, the extreme lack thereof).
Tyranny is anytime the rights of the Minority are subverted by the will of the majority..... In this case, banning the Burning the Flag could be seen a s a tyranny of the majority...

[Sam!]

Tyranny (American Heritage Dictionary)
1. A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power. No.
2. The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler. No.
3. Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly: “I have sworn . . . eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” (Thomas Jefferson). I don't think limiting a specific expression is an act of absolute power. Nor do I believe that having such an amendment duly ratified by the states falls under the category of unjust or cruel (AHD: 1. Disposed to inflict pain or suffering. 2. Causing suffering; painful.).
4.
1. Use of absolute power.
2. A tyrannical act.
5. Extreme harshness or severity; rigor. No.

[cheewiee]

I don't think limiting a specific expression is an act of absolute power.

I think we will have to agree to disagree, because I do... and we are not going to convince each other...

[mat1583]

Tyranny (American Heritage Dictionary)
No.
No.
I don't think limiting a specific expression is an act of absolute power. Nor do I believe that having such an amendment duly ratified by the states falls under the category of unjust or cruel (AHD: 1. Disposed to inflict pain or suffering. 2. Causing suffering; painful.).
No.

In this case, the American Heritage Dictionary is not sufficient for the word tyranny unless you want to get into pure semantics. If you've ever taken some philisophy class, you've probably heard of the 19th century philosopher John Stuart Mill. One of his most famous works, "On Liberty", discusses the tyranny of government over the people. He says that the authority of the government should be limited by the liberty of the people and says that without this limitation, government can be a dangerous weapon. If you ever have the time, I really recommend that you read it. Remember, it's not all about semantics.

edit: And if you insist on the semantics, government can be considered one single unit of power. Therefore, this one single unit can act as an absolute power over the minority.

And here are a few quotes from Thomas Jefferson, who is included as an example in your Heritage dictionary definition:

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. "
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. "
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. "

VERY GOOD ONE: "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. "

and the best:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "
AMEN THOMAS J!

-washboard

[Sam!]

it's not all about semantics, but how can we have a discussion if words don't mean the same thing to everybody? if you mean tyranny, say tyranny. if you mean something else, say something else.

[mat1583]

it's not all about semantics, but how can we have a discussion if words don't mean the same thing to everybody? if you mean tyranny, say tyranny. if you mean something else, say something else.

I can't speak for him, but I believe when he said tyranny, he meant exactly that. On the other hand, you can't have a discussion and only discuss the semantics of a topic. Language, whether spoken or written, does not focus merely on semantics unless it is a technical writing.

And as I demonstrated, a government can fall under the dictionary's classification of who or what can be tyrannical. A government, since it can be considered as one unit in many cases, can be tyrannical in nature.

-washboard

[prayercloth sis]

I looked up what the colors of the flag represented at the time Betsy Ross was asked to sew the very first one.

I personally could not burn this precious flag..as many soldiers, nurses, men and women have died for what it represents...

If a person living on US soil doesn't like what our flag stands for then they need to go where a country or nation's flag stands for what they believe...

The history of our country and the history of our flag and so much more are very forthright...

Our country was founded on God, moral values, freedom, courage, and so much more...

And for me it still represents all of those things and so much more...precious blood spilt for our freedom...

God Bless America and God Bless our Flag, and God Bless our Soldiers...

And God Bless you all!

In Jesus Name Amen