Marines attack Civilians in Iraq

[Jesuslove]

Sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation

An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

As if the Abu Gharib scandal wasn't bad enough. And then Americans ask, "Why did 9/11 happen?" "Why do foreigners hate us?" It sickens me.. and I feel that those that support this President and this war are wrong. Someone needs to stand up to GWB and say, enough is enough.

[kh294God]

Sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation

An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

As if the Abu Gharib scandal wasn't bad enough. And then Americans ask, "Why did 9/11 happen?" "Why do foreigners hate us?" It sickens me.. and I feel that those that support this President and this war are wrong. Someone needs to stand up to GWB and say, enough is enough.
i won't deny the fact that when we invaded Iraq i was behind it. But i think that it's been proven to many times that our help isn't really wanted over there and that we need to leave. NOW
pete

[Jesuslove]

i won't deny the fact that when we invaded Iraq i was behind it. But i think that it's been proven to many times that our help isn't really wanted over there and that we need to leave. NOW
pete
I think it's time to leave as well. We need to somehow get the support of the neighboring nations and get out!

[Mugirl04]

Sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation

An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

As if the Abu Gharib scandal wasn't bad enough. And then Americans ask, "Why did 9/11 happen?" "Why do foreigners hate us?" It sickens me.. and I feel that those that support this President and this war are wrong. Someone needs to stand up to GWB and say, enough is enough.
I do not feel that I am wrong, I support Bush. I think that we can not leave now or we will have an anarchy on our hands in there country. If you doubt that we have done something good in this war please ask the kurdish people, who are now coming to Jesus because Christian are allowed in this area for the first time. Who are not being genocide

[kh294God]

I do not feel that I am wrong, I support Bush. I think that we can not leave now or we will have an anarchy on our hands in there country. If you doubt that we have done something good in this war please ask the kurdish people, who are now coming to Jesus because Christian are allowed in this area for the first time. Who are not being genocide


oh, don't get me wrong i truly believe without a doubt that we have done a LOT of good there. i just think that we've done all that we can. they have to learn to defend themselves and run their country sooner or later.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

These Marines have gone to an Article 32 Investigation already?
Charges have been Referred and Preferred?
They've been tried?
They've been convicted?

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation

An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

As if the Abu Gharib scandal wasn't bad enough. And then Americans ask, "Why did 9/11 happen?" "Why do foreigners hate us?" It sickens me.. and I feel that those that support this President and this war are wrong. Someone needs to stand up to GWB and say, enough is enough.

Actually 9/11 happend before the incidents you just mentioned. 9/11 didn't happen because of this latest alleged incident, 9/11 didn't happen because of Abu Gharib. Check your time line. 9/11 happend because the coward, cheating on his wife, president that was in office before Bush did nothing to keep terrorists in check. You seem to forget that.

What also seems to not get mentioned is the wonderful treatment americans and other foreigners get when the are detained in that part of the world. I'll take dogs and photos any day compared to getting my head lopped off.

9/11 happened because we, as believers in Christ are infidels in the eyes of radical muslims.

[SacredHeart]

If these charges are true, and I pray to God they are not, the responsible individuals should be held accountable; but these acts should not be interpreted as a reason or just cause to leave Iraq prematurely. I agree that we must get out of Iraq, but sooner is not necessarily better. To leave before the Iraqi people can bear the full weight, both governmentally and militarily, would be tantamount to abandonment.

[ObiShawn]

Sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation

The key word here is "likely." Once again, this is an example of the media only providing the info they want you to know. Thank you Steve for proving my point.

[kh294God]

The key word here is "likely." Once again, this is an example of the media only providing the info they want you to know. Thank you Steve for proving my point.

and here all along i thought that i was the only who believed that the media report only what they want you to see...:D

[cheewiee]

The great part is, Jesus love you didn't bother to mention that these Marines will be held accountable for their crimes according to the UCMJ...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

The key word here is "likely." Once again, this is an example of the media only providing the info they want you to know. Thank you Steve for proving my point.

It doesn't matter what the facts are, all that matters and qualifies it for discussion here is the fact it's anti-military parlaying into anit-war discussion point.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

The great part is, Jesus love you didn't bother to mention that these Marines will be held accountable for their crimes according to the UCMJ...

Thank you!!! He would rather try them here. Each and everyone involved will be going to an Article 32 investigation, which is the military equal to a grand jury investigation so to speak. 32's are used to decide whether or not a General Courts-Martial is appropriate, however, if you're going to a 32 investigation, you're going to a General Court.

The UCMJ is much more stringent than it's civilian codes.

[Grank]

you mean some marines acted independently and killed 24 civilians? OH NOES! this independent act of atrocity clearly shows that we shouldn't be in iraq.

please, this is ridiculous. war messes with people. it happens. like this is the only time civilians have ever been tageted in human history. i mean come on, the middle east at one time had a guy who killed civilians all the time. now they see him as a hero and a prophet. i guess this means they shouldn't get mad at us for any civilian deaths then shouldn't it?

[DareDevil]

Wars are nasty and they do indeed mess with people's minds. Most historians would confirm this. That's also why I think that it must be clear to soldiers that they are supposed to NOT give in to those tendencies and that they will be held accountable by higher standards than civilians if they should give in. The army (well, the Marine Corps) has a responsibility too though and I hope it will also be investigated whether it lived up to it or not. I am not so much thinking of illegal orders "from above", I'm wondering whether these soldiers already had psychological problems and whether this was known to the Marine Corps or not.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

As if the Abu Gharib scandal wasn't bad enough. And then Americans ask, "Why did 9/11 happen?" "Why do foreigners hate us?" It sickens me.. and I feel that those that support this President and this war are wrong. Someone needs to stand up to GWB and say, enough is enough.

Yes, because we all know that if Gore was president, 9/11 would have never happened. :rolleyes:

Disregard the fact that they'd been planning it for years during Clintons terms.

You have an irrational dislike for the president. I don't like him either but it seems like you're twisting the facts just so you can prove a point a la Michael Moore.

It's a sad sad situation and it's what makes war suck. But these kinds of things have happened in every war from every presidential term and there's nothing Bush could have done to prevent those from happening either.

[kiwisongbird]

So sad... I wonder what age these marines were? I think early twenties is too young for the responsibility that these (excuse me young ones...) kids have... sure they should be held accountable, but sorry, I really can't imagine the stress on such young guys, given guns, put in a war situation... :(

[TheBus36(Retired)]

So sad... I wonder what age these marines were? I think early twenties is too young for the responsibility that these (excuse me young ones...) kids have... sure they should be held accountable, but sorry, I really can't imagine the stress on such young guys, given guns, put in a war situation... :(

You're right, and neither can the people who sit back and blast the military and the war, especially those who have never served, but feel they are experts in assessing each situation as though they have been through it.

[Mugirl04]

Actually 9/11 happend before the incidents you just mentioned. 9/11 didn't happen because of this latest alleged incident, 9/11 didn't happen because of Abu Gharib. Check your time line. 9/11 happend because the coward, cheating on his wife, president that was in office before Bush did nothing to keep terrorists in check. You seem to forget that.

What also seems to not get mentioned is the wonderful treatment americans and other foreigners get when the are detained in that part of the world. I'll take dogs and photos any day compared to getting my head lopped off.

9/11 happened because we, as believers in Christ are infidels in the eyes of radical muslims.
good point. I totally agree. We are under attack because we are a christian nation and aren't afraid of being known as one

[kiwisongbird]

I'm sorry, I really don't think America is a Christian nation - I know I may get a little 'blasted' for this, but I beleive if you look around you may find that it is not -although it is known as a Christian nation...
:)

Same with New Zealand, it was built on Christian princilples etc, but is now in no way a Christian nation .... certainly not in the way that you could sy that Thailand is a Buddhist nation. :) :)

Love you all :)

The comment about the young boys with guns in Iraq.. I still think war stinks and I still think that somehow they need to be accountable in some way.. although whether it would be murder or temporary insanity or whatever - I don't know ????? Sad, topic :(

[Ringil]

I'm sorry, I really don't think America is a Christian nation - I know I may get a little 'blasted' for this, but I beleive if you look around you may find that it is not -although it is known as a Christian nation...
:)

Same with New Zealand, it was built on Christian princilples etc, but is now in no way a Christian nation .... certainly not in the way that you could sy that Thailand is a Buddhist nation. :) :)

Love you all :)



I agree. You can't really say any nation is Christian.

[Mugirl04]

I agree. You can't really say any nation is Christian.
yes but some where founded on christian principals and others weren't

[bholdj]

yes but some where founded on christian principals and others weren't

Constantine's Rome was found on Christian principals, didn't do him alot of good :).

Remember, God dosen't bless the powerful, but the poor. God has shown favor on America, particulary during the country's growing era. But that dosen't mean God made America a Christian nation. Plenty of individuals that live on American soil (criminals, murderers, etc)have proven that America is anything but a Christian nation.

[bholdj]

9/11 happened because we, as believers in Christ are infidels in the eyes of radical muslims.

That is so true, but also reveals the ignorance of the Islamic people. They could go to China and make there job alot easier killing Christians :D .

In my view, 9/11 was a product of a sinful people, built up agression against the west. Muslims murder, sin against jews evreyday(Israel/Palestine), not just christians. Plus, when Russia and America were in the cold war, I don't believe that was a time of tension over Religion, that was a political staredown that went longer then it should.

Sometimes superpowers are attacked just because power is involved, I would rather not give Bin-Laden's croonies credit and say there attacking us because of our faith, perhaps they hate us the same reason why communists did?

[Evanescence]

All interesting points...

To KIWISONGBIRD:

Define Christian nation. I'd like to think we are not as Christian as we should be....but still a Christian nation.

I wanted to point this out earlier in one of the threads about war and GWB. Sickos will join the military to kill. That much is true. Just like street fighters learn to box or wrestle so they can hurt and mame, some people join the military for sadistic purposes. So, reports of abuses and atrocities shouldnt be surprising NOR should they be misconstrude to show the mentality of a nation. Most people in our armed services wnat to help and protect but a few sickos will be there to shed blood...its simple math.

Reports are true and accurate about Clinton not taking the terrorists seriously. 9/11, would have happened no matter what. Its not all GWBs fault....

But, I do feel we're in Iraq for a reason other than why we initiially went in. The war was on the table at the Pentagon long before 9/11 and it was only an excuse. Bush and Cheney pushed for it, but others were behind it. Its caused a lot of chaos and taken a lot of lives. Its not a righteous war beacuse it was for the WRONG reason....no matter what the outcome.

If these guys killed civilians for no reason, they need to be punished and it be broadcast around the world, so we can show that we dont tolerate crap like that.

Grank, good to see you again, hows the weather in Kuwait?

E

[woman4life]

I actually have no way of knowing if it was for the wrong reasons or not. It may have not been exclusively for the stated reason, which I think was a mistake. Not being God or GWB, I can't judge motives. I"m certainly not in his inner circle.

BTW, I don't consider that we are "at war" in Iraq. We declared war against Sadaam Hussein's government and it was overthrown. What we are doing now is attempting to restore order. If we pull out now, it might be worse than when we started and it would be for nothing. I hope it works over there. I do have my doubts that it will be long lasting. There are a lot of military actions that are not "war" per se. It may be grasping at straws, but I think it makes a difference in perspective.

I do agree that those responsible should be fully punished in accordance with the crimes (if they are guilty and convicted). Some police officers do some horrendous things (though the majority do not), and I don't think it is indicative of war in particular, but more of human nature.. and humanity's sinful nature is the reason there will be either war or tyranny or both until Christ returns.

--Melanie

[Grank]

Grank, good to see you again, hows the weather in Kuwait?

E
hahaha... insanely hot. the name is chris by the way.

so if actions like these are the cause of certain extremist movements against the united states, are these extremist movements justified?

[kiwisongbird]

FOR CHRIS (GRANK)

Christian = of Christ or His teaching,believing in, professing or belongingto Christian religion

Nation = people or race having common descent, language, hisotry, or political institutions

(as per The Little Oxford Dictionary)


So a Christian nation would be a people or race, with common descent, language, history or political institution who are of Christ or His teaching.


OR.....

A people or race, with common....etc etc who profess to belong to the Christian religion.

So... I would say if it was definition number one, then America is NOT a Christian country - for sure!!!

BUT after reading the dictionary, then I would have to say that if definition number two was used, then America IS a Christian country!!

The issue is very likely who do non-Christians see as Christian countries and how does that affect their perception of Christianity?

I remember when Madonna first came out with her lacey tops and big crosses and how that really affected Muslim perception of Christianity... sad, but true...we worry so much about how WE can damage people's perception of Christianity when they actually lump us all in together anyway...

[Jesuslove]

I do not feel that I am wrong, I support Bush. I think that we can not leave now or we will have an anarchy on our hands in there country. If you doubt that we have done something good in this war please ask the kurdish people, who are now coming to Jesus because Christian are allowed in this area for the first time. Who are not being genocide
I don't think you get it. Innocent civilians are dying. Does the fact that some are brought to Christ warrant innocent murder? I think not.

[Jesuslove]

Actually 9/11 happend before the incidents you just mentioned. 9/11 didn't happen because of this latest alleged incident, 9/11 didn't happen because of Abu Gharib. Check your time line. 9/11 happend because the coward, cheating on his wife, president that was in office before Bush did nothing to keep terrorists in check. You seem to forget that.

What also seems to not get mentioned is the wonderful treatment americans and other foreigners get when the are detained in that part of the world. I'll take dogs and photos any day compared to getting my head lopped off.
SO? Just cause 9/11 happened, our actions in Iraq aren't justified. SORRY!


9/11 happened because we, as believers in Christ are infidels in the eyes of radical muslims.
And I guess radical Christians are better. Radical Christians justify the murder of innocent muslims just as radical muslims justify the murder of innocent Christians. I thought as Christians we were taught to turn the other cheek. Iraq didn't attack us. Innocent Iraqis, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jewish, don't deserve to be murdered.. It sickens me that people try to somehow justify these actions. People are people no matter what religion they are.

[Jesuslove]

The great part is, Jesus love you didn't bother to mention that these Marines will be held accountable for their crimes according to the UCMJ...
Yeah.. just like Abu Gharib... the soldiers got minor sentences and people were murdered. We'd criticize other nations as being barbaric, yet we are no better. How sad.

[Jesuslove]

Yes, because we all know that if Gore was president, 9/11 would have never happened. :rolleyes:

Newsflash: 9/11 has NOTHING to do with IRAQ!!

[Jesuslove]

So sad... I wonder what age these marines were? I think early twenties is too young for the responsibility that these (excuse me young ones...) kids have... sure they should be held accountable, but sorry, I really can't imagine the stress on such young guys, given guns, put in a war situation... :(
Well maybe we shouldn't put young boys in such situations with guns. How many incidents like this will it take to learn lessons? There IS NO justification for their actions. They SHAME America.

[larryl]

Yeah.. just like Abu Gharib... the soldiers got minor sentences and people were murdered. We'd criticize other nations as being barbaric, yet we are no better. How sad.


then petittion your congressman for stronger punishment under the UCMJ

[Howlin' Wolf]

nobody was murdered in abu gharib. they were humiliated. they werent beaten or tortured. just humiliated.

[Mugirl04]

Newsflash: 9/11 has NOTHING to do with IRAQ!!
We won't have gone to war with iraq if 9/11 wouldn't of happen

[Jesuslove]

We won't have gone to war with iraq if 9/11 wouldn't of happen
How does America being attacked by Osama BinLaden and Al-Queda justify attacking Iraq? I don't understand the logic. Please enlighten me.

[Jesuslove]

nobody was murdered in abu gharib. they were humiliated. they werent beaten or tortured. just humiliated.
What news do you read? Many were murdered at Abu Gharib. Or do you watch Fox news?

[Howlin' Wolf]

How does America being attacked by Osama BinLaden and Al-Queda justify attacking Iraq? I don't understand the logic. Please enlighten me.

seeing as al-qaeda had training centers in iraq and saddam was in direct violations of countless UN resolutions, thats all the logic you need.

[Jesuslove]

seeing as al-qaeda had training centers in iraq and saddam was in direct violations of countless UN resolutions, thats all the logic you need.
Specifically, where were these training centers in Iraq? I have never seen or heard this. GWB has admitted we attacked Iraq based on faulty intelligence. What more do you need?

[Howlin' Wolf]

What news do you read? Many were murdered at Abu Gharib. Or do you watch Fox news?

i dont watch fox news or cnn or cspan or any of the other biased bullcrap thats out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

prisoner abuse doesnt = "many murders"

maybe you should study up before you embarass yourself

[Howlin' Wolf]

Specifically, where were these training centers in Iraq? I have never seen or heard this. GWB has admitted we attacked Iraq based on faulty intelligence. What more do you need?

even if i gave you an exact location of al-qaeda training facilities, you would still spout your rhetoric.

Following the US-led invasion of Afghanistan, it is believed that Zarqawi moved westward into Iraq, where he may have received medical treatment in Baghdad for an injured leg. It is believed that he developed extensive ties in Iraq with Ansar al-Islam, a Kurdish Islamist militant group that was based in the extreme northeast of the country, but there is no evidence that deposed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein or the Iraqi government was involved in harboring Zarqawi or Ansar al-Islam. Following the U.S-led invasion of Iraq, JTJ was developed as a terrorist network composed of foreign fighters, remnants of Ansar al-Islam, and indigenous Sunni extremists to resist the coalition occupation forces and their Iraqi allies. The group's spiritual advisor is Abu Anas al-Shami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_Iraq

anything else you want to be proven wrong on?

[Mugirl04]

How does America being attacked by Osama BinLaden and Al-Queda justify attacking Iraq? I don't understand the logic. Please enlighten me.
Let's see a country who aided bin laden refuse to be inspect umm it seems like sadaam sealed his own fate

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Newsflash: 9/11 has NOTHING to do with IRAQ!!

And?...

Is there a point to your newsflash in relation to my post? Could you please point it out to me because I'm lost here. Either this is liberal propaganda and its finest - or worst. It's almost like you had this post waiting to be typed but couldn't find a reason to say it so you just randomly chose someone to quote.

[woman4life]

Just a point of fact:

I don't think anyone here is saying that the death of innocent civilians is o.k. I wouldn't even say the death of soldiers is o.k. It may be a reality, that doesn't mean it's good. I also don't think any claims were made that since Jesus can be proclaimed in Iraq now (although I imagine there are still can be some great consequences to doing so) that killing innocent civilians is o.k.

The truth of the matter is that innocent people were (and often still are) being hurt in Iraq. Sadaam Hussein not only killed innocent civilians, he was imprisoning even children.

The one thing I kind of don't get is how Bush said this would be long term and everyone expected things to be settled in a week.

And for the record, there are plenty of things I disagree with Bush about. I am not convinced that Iraq is one of them. The main concern I have isn't whether or not Sadaam Hussein should have been forcefully removed.

War isn't a good thing. It never was. But the absence of war doesn't always mean no one is being hurt, maimed or killed. Innocent people are hurt all the time... war or not. It's always sad, and if someone is intentionally and unjustly killed those INDIVIDUALS responsible should be held accountable.

[bholdj]

Specifically, where were these training centers in Iraq? I have never seen or heard this. GWB has admitted we attacked Iraq based on faulty intelligence. What more do you need?

Jason (Tulip) has seen more in the Middle east than you ever have. Live with the Pakistans for a while and you get a keen sense on tensions, particulary in the Muslim world.

I think your barking up the wrong tree, especially now that Tulip has joined this discussion. But be my guest, i like seeing arguments like yours burned to ashes. :D

[woman4life]

There was one death that I can find at Abu Gharib. If there are more, I can't find reports of them other than a reported death of a 62 year old detainee who died of a heart attack in April of this year.

For those who would like a before/after comparison:

http://www.papillonsartpalace.co m/abu.htm

And one might argue that some people were not punished enough, but most were punished.

[kiwisongbird]

Well maybe we shouldn't put young boys in such situations with guns. How many incidents like this will it take to learn lessons? There IS NO justification for their actions. They SHAME America.


I wasn't trying to justify their actions - I HATE the fact that young boys (sorry if you're nineteen or twenty - I'm OLD!!) are sent to war... it's not right!!!!

My eldest son is nearly fourteen, that means that if he was American and the war was still going on then I'd only have five or six more years before there was a definite possibility of him going to war... eeww.

I don't know how you all cope with all this. My friend's son killed an Iraqi when he was only just 21 - it was a hard time for him and he had veterans telling him, "You're just doing your job kid" - which is true, but now I'm 46 and I look at 20 year olds and freak out thinking that they have to do this stuff! :( :(

[TheBus36(Retired)]

As if the Abu Gharib scandal wasn't bad enough. And then Americans ask, "Why did 9/11 happen?" "Why do foreigners hate us?" It sickens me.. and I feel that those that support this President and this war are wrong. Someone needs to stand up to GWB and say, enough is enough.[/B]

I think you missed the point here, I was responding to your question as quoted above and simply stating the facts that 9/11 did not happen because of the incidents you mentioned, 9/11 was prior to Abu Gharib, and the fact that the former President basically left Bin Laden and his gang unchecked with the exception of a stray cruise missile here and there into a deserted training facility allowed this to happen.

SO? Just cause 9/11 happened, our actions in Iraq aren't justified. SORRY!


And I guess radical Christians are better. Radical Christians justify the murder of innocent muslims just as radical muslims justify the murder of innocent Christians. I thought as Christians we were taught to turn the other cheek. Iraq didn't attack us. Innocent Iraqis, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jewish, don't deserve to be murdered.. It sickens me that people try to somehow justify these actions. People are people no matter what religion they are.



And I don't believe, at any point, I stated that radical christians were any better than any other radical faction. I simply said we were a christian nation, thus prompting the radical muslim's hate for us. You implied that on my behalf. That, for the record is not my belief. Iraq didn't attack us? No, they didn't, but given the fact they harbor terrorists, murder 10's of thousands of their own people, and were involved in many other things, of which neither you or I are privy to know, makes them a threat. Maybe we should have just sat back and waited to see what that loose cannon would have done, and then found ourselves asking the samethings we asked immediately following 9/11 simply because our administration refused to recognize the potential threat. No thanks, I would rather not have to respond to another 9/11 because we sat around, with our arrogance in full bloom thinking we were untouchable.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Specifically, where were these training centers in Iraq? I have never seen or heard this. GWB has admitted we attacked Iraq based on faulty intelligence. What more do you need?

How long were you in Kuwait City or Iraq during Desert Storm? Just to fill you in, there are a number of things you have not seen or heard, simply because you don't have the clearance or the need to know, which by the way, is not going to cause anyone at the DOD to not sleep tonight becuse you don't agree with something you don't have one shred of knowledge about.

Saddam has defied the UN and the rest of the world since the first defeat he was handed. Once again, given his past history, and his absolute disregard for human live, civil rights of any kind and his potential and need to flex his muscle, does this question really have to be asked for reasons other than it's not your administration doing it?

[kiwisongbird]

a tiny voice says - what about Myanmar?

[Ringil]

A slightly louder voice backs up the tiny one.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

a tiny voice says - what about Myanmar?

A slightly louder voice backs up the tiny one.

:confused: Help me out here guys.

[ObiShawn]

:confused: Help me out here guys.

Yeah, me too.

One entry found for Myanmar.


Main Entry: Myan·mar
Pronunciation: 'myän-"mär
Variant(s): or formerly Bur·ma /'b&r-m&/

Usage: geographical name country SE Asia on Bay of Bengal; a federal republic capital Yangon area 261,789 square miles (680,651 square kilometers), population 45,573,000
So what happened in Burma?

[Jesuslove]

even if i gave you an exact location of al-qaeda training facilities, you would still spout your rhetoric.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_Iraq

anything else you want to be proven wrong on?
wikipedia isn't always reliable. it's heavily dependent on it's readers.

[Jesuslove]

Let's see a country who aided bin laden refuse to be inspect umm it seems like sadaam sealed his own fate
when did he aid bin Laden? Saudi Arabia aided bin Laden and we did nothing..

[Gandalf]

My eldest son is nearly fourteen, that means that if he was American and the war was still going on then I'd only have five or six more years before there was a definite possibility of him going to war... eeww.
Only if he volunteered to do so... our military is 100% volunteer; there's no conscription/draft in the US presently; there hasn't been since the end of the Vietnam War, and there's no need for it now. The only way he'd go to war would be if he chose to join the military because he wanted to serve his country in that manner.

[DareDevil]

(...)

And for the record, there are plenty of things I disagree with Bush about. I am not convinced that Iraq is one of them. The main concern I have isn't whether or not Sadaam Hussein should have been forcefully removed.

War isn't a good thing. It never was. But the absence of war doesn't always mean no one is being hurt, maimed or killed. Innocent people are hurt all the time... war or not. It's always sad, and if someone is intentionally and unjustly killed those INDIVIDUALS responsible should be held accountable.
I'm not an American, but I'm still pretty much as torn as you when it comes to the war there. Still, sad truth that I believe that war can be the lesser of two evils. Personally I think that this says a lot about human nature.

[cheewiee]

wikipedia isn't always reliable. it's heavily dependent on it's readers.

Your right Wiki isn't always reliable, however some of the more "hot button" topics tend to be scrutenized VERY Closely by it's members... and Citation of sources on Wikipedia has become a BIG deal within the community...

I would trust Wiki, ALOT more than I would trust random obsurd claims made on a BBS...

[WeaselInYerFoot]

wikipedia isn't always reliable. it's heavily dependent on it's readers.
Maybe you should do a little research on the Oil for Food scam and find out how many thousands of children actually died of starvation because Saddam was stashing the food in Warehouses by diverting the routes and preventing the supplies from arriving to the malnuritioned communities. As a result almost half-amillion children under 5 died.

How about the genocide against the Kurds?

Or the the fact the Saddams sons killed, tortured and raped for sheer pleasure. One of the was in charge of the Olympic Commitee. He made sure the players recieved their propper 'punishment' if they didn't perform well.

How about the fact that Hitler was one of Saddams Idols whom he looked up to and imitated?

Speaking of Abu Ghraib, this comes from a 2001 report from the UN Special Rapporteur:

Numbers of executions:

# 4,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in 1984;
# 3,000 prisoners at the Mahjar prison from 1993-1998;
# 2,500 prisoners were executed between 1997-1999 in a "prison cleansing campaign;"
# 122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000;
# 23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001; and
# At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001.

I'm not even going to bother posting resources. This isn't hard to find.

[Howlin' Wolf]

when did he aid bin Laden? Saudi Arabia aided bin Laden and we did nothing..

you notice how some of the words are blue? that means they are a link to a news source.

nice try though.

[jwil59]

Weasel has posted plenty of credible reasons for the invasion of Iraq. Having said that, there are worse atrocities being commited in South Africa so why are we not there? Maybe cause they have no oil?

Even the staunchest of Bush supporters should be ready, in my opinion, to admit the invasion of Iraq was at best poorly planned. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the US military could easily defeat Sadam's forces. They had and still have no concrete, measurable plan to restore order in Iraq, not at least that they are talking about. Creating a democracy in Iraq is a little too generic for me.

I voted for W twice, and like even the Democrats in Congress who voted for the war, I at the time supported the invasion based on the intelligence they saw(or at least what was published). But as far as I am concerned, W and Rummy flew of the deep end without a plan to get out. How could they not anticipate the problems we have there now? That's what we pay them to do.

I have heard Rummy more than once say that the administration didn't anticipate the level of the insurgency. My question is why?

[Mugirl04]

I wasn't trying to justify their actions - I HATE the fact that young boys (sorry if you're nineteen or twenty - I'm OLD!!) are sent to war... it's not right!!!!

My eldest son is nearly fourteen, that means that if he was American and the war was still going on then I'd only have five or six more years before there was a definite possibility of him going to war... eeww.

I don't know how you all cope with all this. My friend's son killed an Iraqi when he was only just 21 - it was a hard time for him and he had veterans telling him, "You're just doing your job kid" - which is true, but now I'm 46 and I look at 20 year olds and freak out thinking that they have to do this stuff! :( :(
he would have volunteer for the service. Its not a draft

[Mugirl04]

when did he aid bin Laden? Saudi Arabia aided bin Laden and we did nothing..
Sadaam went back on all his argeement with the union he kick out the inspectors and he had training camps to help bin ladens people

[bholdj]

you notice how some of the words are blue? that means they are a link to a news source.

nice try though.

perhaps he is color blind :confused: ?

[Gandalf]

Weasel has posted plenty of credible reasons for the invasion of Iraq. Having said that, there are worse atrocities being commited in South Africa so why are we not there? Maybe cause they have no oil?
More likely because they're not threatening the security of other nations in the manner Iraq was. There are terrible things happening all over Africa, but since they don't affect the rest of the world directly, the rest of the world (the US included) is more reluctant to intervene.
Even the staunchest of Bush supporters should be ready, in my opinion, to admit the invasion of Iraq was at best poorly planned. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the US military could easily defeat Sadam's forces. They had and still have no concrete, measurable plan to restore order in Iraq, not at least that they are talking about. Creating a democracy in Iraq is a little too generic for me.
The violent death rate in Iraq right now is lower than it is in Washington D.C. and several other major American cities. It's not nearly what the media makes it out to be.

There are some insurgents; I don't mean to downplay that. The reason we're surprised by it is because we didn't realize we'd be so successful in getting Al Qaeda to concentrate on a particular front - they pretty much all ran to Iraq to fight after we overthrew Saddam. We had expected them to stay more scattered and not concentrate themselves like that. It's a bit of a pain for the Iraqis, but it is quite a good opportunity for us to severely weaken the terrorists. If we fight them there, they're not fighting us here.

[HotWireD]

Sadaam went back on all his argeement with the union he kick out the inspectors and he had training camps to help bin ladens people

I am pretty certain that even the Bush Administration now agree that Saddam was an enemy of Bin Laden, not a friend. It was common knowledge in the Uk right from the start that Saddam had nothing to do with the World Trade Centre terrorists. There were no training camps for bin Laden's people in Iraq.

As Gandalf states, they are there now - it is a new front for them to attack the US and coalition forces - at least there are in almost one place (good point, not thought of it that way before). Saddam used to persecute them when he was in power - it was one of the reasons we (the US and Europe) supported him.

He did kick out the inspectors, he did gas his own people (at that time he was our ally - being supported by the US and supplied with poisonous gas by German businesmen).

The attack on the civillians by US Marines is still being investigated - I will wait and see if there is a cover up or not and what actually happened.

If the marines are found guilty, I wonder if they would get the same punishment for killing Iraqis as they would had they gone on the rampage in the USA and killed US civillians?

[Jesuslove]

Maybe you should do a little research on the Oil for Food scam and find out how many thousands of children actually died of starvation because Saddam was stashing the food in Warehouses by diverting the routes and preventing the supplies from arriving to the malnuritioned communities. As a result almost half-amillion children under 5 died.

How about the genocide against the Kurds?

Or the the fact the Saddams sons killed, tortured and raped for sheer pleasure. One of the was in charge of the Olympic Commitee. He made sure the players recieved their propper 'punishment' if they didn't perform well.

How about the fact that Hitler was one of Saddams Idols whom he looked up to and imitated?
What does any of this have to do with WMD's? WMD's are the supposed reason we went to war. If there wasn't 'faulty intelligence', we wouldn't have gone to war.

[Jesuslove]

Sadaam went back on all his argeement with the union he kick out the inspectors and he had training camps to help bin ladens people
again, where were these al-queda training camps in iraq? President Bush and Colin Powell have come out since the war and stated that there was no Al-Queda link to the war. It was all about 'WMD's'.

[Jesuslove]

The violent death rate in Iraq right now is lower than it is in Washington D.C. and several other major American cities. It's not nearly what the media makes it out to be.
OK. Does that justify anything?

[Gandalf]

What does any of this have to do with WMD's? WMD's are the supposed reason we went to war. If there wasn't 'faulty intelligence', we wouldn't have gone to war.
WMDs were the most publicly emphasized reason for going to war, since it was the easiest case to explain, and was strongly supported by intelligence at the time. Saddam was required by a ceasefire agreement he had signed to cooperate with weapons inspectors, and instead kicked them out of the country and persisted in hiding things. He had used WMDs in the past, and we knew of programs of his to attempt to develop more. Whether he destroyed them, shipped them off to Syria, or was lying about having them to begin with we don't know. They don't seem to be in Iraq presently, but that's beside the point. Hindsight isn't available when making decisions.

But in addition to that, the al Qaeda training camps, conversations with his sons about helping terrorists, funding of terrorists in Israel, etc. were certainly equally important reasons for taking him out. The WMD issue was just an easier and more impressive reason to publicize. They did mention the terrorist connections at the time, as well as the humanitarian benefits to the Iraqis. The other reasons weren't invented later; they just weren't emphasized as strongly as WMDs.

[Gandalf]

OK. Does that justify anything?
It doesn't justify anything that'd otherwise be wrong, no. It just points out that the idea that we're somehow losing and things are going terrible over there simply isn't true. The war is justified regardless; that is immaterial. If this group of Marines massacred civilians, that's not justified in any case, and they'll be dealt with appropriately.

[Jesuslove]

WMDs were the most publicly emphasized reason for going to war, since it was the easiest case to explain, and was strongly supported by intelligence at the time. Saddam was required by a ceasefire agreement he had signed to cooperate with weapons inspectors, and instead kicked them out of the country and persisted in hiding things. He had used WMDs in the past, and we knew of programs of his to attempt to develop more. Whether he destroyed them, shipped them off to Syria, or was lying about having them to begin with we don't know. They don't seem to be in Iraq presently, but that's beside the point. Hindsight isn't available when making decisions.
No, but time was on our side, and there was no reason to rush into war. I was against the war from the beginning. I'm not just jumping on a bandwagon.

But in addition to that, the al Qaeda training camps, conversations with his sons about helping terrorists, funding of terrorists in Israel, etc. were certainly equally important reasons for taking him out. The WMD issue was just an easier and more impressive reason to publicize. They did mention the terrorist connections at the time, as well as the humanitarian benefits to the Iraqis. The other reasons weren't invented later; they just weren't emphasized as strongly as WMDs.
did you read the earlier post, Saddam hated bin Laden. There was no connection between Saddam and al Queda.



"The WMD issue was just an easier and more impressive reason to publicize. ".
So your saying it was a lie?

[Gandalf]

No, but time was on our side, and there was no reason to rush into war. I was against the war from the beginning. I'm not just jumping on a bandwagon.
That's a valid position to take... those who had more access to information and were in authority disagreed with it pretty much unanimously though.
did you read the earlier post, Saddam hated bin Laden. There was no connection between Saddam and al Queda.
Saddam and bin Laden weren't friendly, that's true. But his sons did have conversations with lower ranking al Qaeda officials about cooperating (there's hard evidence of this); training camps did exist (again, this is well established), etc. No one claims that Saddam was behind the actual attacks on 9/11, or that Saddam was closely cooperating with bin Laden. But he recognized a common enemy (us) and did offer some support. And, his ties to terrorism in general go beyond that. He paid the families of Palesitinian homicide bombers in Israel, etc. No one's claiming Hussein and bin Laden are close allies. But both of them have been willing to work with people they didn't agree with in order to benefit themselves.
So your saying it was a lie?
No... go back and read what I wrote. Nowhere did I imply any such thing. I'm saying that if we had three reasons for going to war, and one was both much easier to explain concisely, more obvious from publicly known historical events, and more likely to gain wide support, then it's natural that in public relations they'd emphasize that reason. It'd be silly not to.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Maybe you should do a little research on the Oil for Food scam and find out how many thousands of children actually died of starvation because Saddam was stashing the food in Warehouses by diverting the routes and preventing the supplies from arriving to the malnuritioned communities. As a result almost half-amillion children under 5 died.

How about the genocide against the Kurds?

Or the the fact the Saddams sons killed, tortured and raped for sheer pleasure. One of the was in charge of the Olympic Commitee. He made sure the players recieved their propper 'punishment' if they didn't perform well.

How about the fact that Hitler was one of Saddams Idols whom he looked up to and imitated?



What does any of this have to do with WMD's? WMD's are the supposed reason we went to war. If there wasn't 'faulty intelligence', we wouldn't have gone to war.

My post was not justifying a good reason to have gone to war. It had to do with your attempt to refute Saddams evil nature by doubting a wikipedia reference. You somehow refuse to believe that.

I personally don't think WMDs were a viable reason to go to war *yet* because there were other more important things to deal with (Bin Laden). However, I'm not foolish enough to think that the country is in worse shape than what it was under Saddam. Such statements are lies and attempts at ralying the sheeple to go against the President. And as I said before, I'm not fond of Bush (for other reasons) but I'm not going to join in with the lies and manipulation that has taken place with the media.

[Jesuslove]

It doesn't justify anything that'd otherwise be wrong, no. It just points out that the idea that we're somehow losing and things are going terrible over there simply isn't true. The war is justified regardless; that is immaterial. If this group of Marines massacred civilians, that's not justified in any case, and they'll be dealt with appropriately.

I think these marines should be turned over to the government of Iraq to be punished under their laws. If a foreign soldier came into America and murdered people, he wouldn't be released to his government, he'd be tried, and likely be put to death in the US.

[cheewiee]

I think these marines should be turned over to the government of Iraq to be punished under their laws. If a foreign soldier came into America and murdered people, he wouldn't be released to his government, he'd be tried, and likely be put to death in the US.

That would violate his rights both under the constitution and the UCMJ, and to mee tells me you are already assuming their guilt before Trial...

[Gandalf]

Our soldiers in Iraq are not tourists in a foreign country; they're operating in an official capacity. They're subject to military discipline. We legally can't turn them over to a foreign government if they're there as soldiers. If they were private citizens accused of a civilian crime, it might be different.

[seeker]

I think these marines should be turned over to the government of Iraq to be punished under their laws. If a foreign soldier came into America and murdered people, he wouldn't be released to his government, he'd be tried, and likely be put to death in the US.

Well you would be thinking wrong then. The United States of America is the worlds superpower. As soon as you hand over your citizen or combatant to a foreign country to be tried, you are shaming yourself and your country because you are unable to keep a clean house. You are also saying that you are wrong and they are right.

[Mugirl04]

I think these marines should be turned over to the government of Iraq to be punished under their laws. If a foreign soldier came into America and murdered people, he wouldn't be released to his government, he'd be tried, and likely be put to death in the US.
that is just riduculous. You are violating rights there

[Jesuslove]

Well you would be thinking wrong then. The United States of America is the worlds superpower. As soon as you hand over your citizen or combatant to a foreign country to be tried, you are shaming yourself and your country because you are unable to keep a clean house. You are also saying that you are wrong and they are right.
you mean these Marines didn't shame America enough? You mean if someone like Moussaoui committed murder in our country, he should be tried in his homeland? Doesn't that seem unfair? We still have people in Guantanamo Bay that haven't even been charged with anything.

[Jesuslove]

that is just riduculous. You are violating rights there
Are you serious? these Marines killed innocent civilians and you are worried about their civil rights?

[HotWireD]

If these marines have comitted the actrocities they are accused of, they should be dealt with by the US Authority - who should make sure that the investigation is impartial and the punishment fair and just within the US Judicial System.

The whole investigation/enquiry and punishments have to be satisfactory to the Iraqis, but within US Law.

These marines, if they have comitted these offences, have not only offended against the Iraqi people, but against their own comrades who have to be out there living and working amongst the Iraqis, and they have also offended against their own people and country - they have a responsibility as ambassadors of their country to act in a proper manner.

Imagine all the hard work winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people that has been damaged by this action. BUT bear in mind how much the 'other side' have to gain by maligning the marines....

I await the investigation results...

[Jesuslove]

If these marines have comitted the actrocities they are accused of, they should be dealt with by the US Authority - who should make sure that the investigation is impartial and the punishment fair and just within the US Judicial System.

The whole investigation/enquiry and punishments have to be satisfactory to the Iraqis, but within US Law.

These marines, if they have comitted these offences, have not only offended against the Iraqi people, but against their own comrades who have to be out there living and working amongst the Iraqis, and they have also offended against their own people and country - they have a responsibility as ambassadors of their country to act in a proper manner.

Imagine all the hard work winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people that has been damaged by this action. BUT bear in mind how much the 'other side' have to gain by maligning the marines....

I await the investigation results...

my guess is that they will not receive the same sentence they would hae received if they were civilians and they murdered American citizens. And it will outrage the Iraqi people. Moussaoui was sentenced to death last week and he killed no one. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[Gandalf]

Are you serious? these Marines killed innocent civilians and you are worried about their civil rights?
That's kind of the point of a Constitution, limited government, etc... we have due process to determine if people committed the crimes of which they're accused, and to justly punish them for those crimes.

[jwil59]

More likely because they're not threatening the security of other nations in the manner Iraq was. There are terrible things happening all over Africa, but since they don't affect the rest of the world directly, the rest of the world (the US included) is more reluctant to intervene.

The violent death rate in Iraq right now is lower than it is in Washington D.C. and several other major American cities. It's not nearly what the media makes it out to be.

There are some insurgents; I don't mean to downplay that. The reason we're surprised by it is because we didn't realize we'd be so successful in getting Al Qaeda to concentrate on a particular front - they pretty much all ran to Iraq to fight after we overthrew Saddam. We had expected them to stay more scattered and not concentrate themselves like that. It's a bit of a pain for the Iraqis, but it is quite a good opportunity for us to severely weaken the terrorists. If we fight them there, they're not fighting us here.

Yeah those are good points. I am not totally convinced Iraq was that much of a threat. If we are going to invade all the nations who pose a PERCEIVED threat, there would be no end to warfare for the USA. Who's next? North Korea? Iran? Yeah that's the big one, Iran. They are a whole lot closer to being a threat right now than Iraq ever was.

I am not willing to argue against the invasion, although in hindsight it was probably a mistake. I am willing to argue the war was poorly planned. The plan was executed flawlessly by the military and we still have this mess. Have you seen Baghdad ER on HBO? Let me tell ya it isn't for the faint of heart. Knowing the terrorists hate us and will do anything to kill Americans, we invade a soverign nation on "their turf" and don't expect the terrorists to respond. It's nothing more than my opinion, but that isn't very smart in my book. It isn't just Al Qaeda, it's other terrorist factions not to mention the "all out" civil war that is commencing. I hope I'm wrong, but what I see happening is the political screws torqued to the point where we pull out without completing the mission a la Vietnam.

[Gandalf]

my guess is that they will not receive the same sentence they would hae received if they were civilians and they murdered American citizens. And it will outrage the Iraqi people. Moussaoui was sentenced to death last week and he killed no one. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Moussaoui was sentenced to life, not death.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Are you serious? these Marines killed innocent civilians and you are worried about their civil rights?

Seems to me you're always worried about everyone elses civil rights, except in this case, obviously. I guess it just depends on how it suits your argument or stance. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe these Marines have been tried yet. Have they gone to an Article 32 investigation yet?

You're so concerned about their country, maybe we should just turn you over to Iraq, I'm sure they would appreciate you.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

my guess is that they will not receive the same sentence they would hae received if they were civilians and they murdered American citizens. And it will outrage the Iraqi people. Moussaoui was sentenced to death last week and he killed no one. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Are you kidding me?????? Where do you get your information? He is serving a life sentence at the SuperMax in Colorado.

[Jesuslove]

You're so concerned about their country, maybe we should just turn you over to Iraq, I'm sure they would appreciate you.
These soldiers have shamed our country and hurt our reputation abroad. And you want to look at them as heroes? I don't care if they would appreciate me or not. If someone murders someone else, I don't think I would value their opinion of me very highly.

[seeker]

you mean these Marines didn't shame America enough? You mean if someone like Moussaoui committed murder in our country, he should be tried in his homeland? Doesn't that seem unfair? We still have people in Guantanamo Bay that haven't even been charged with anything.

They have not shamed America because they have not been found guilty yet. That comment about Moussaoui is absolutly absurd. It's these liberal views of what's "fair" and what is not that drive me absolutly insane. If someone is threatening our country or killing our civilians they will be tried on our soil. It is our RIGHT as the superpower of this world. You cannot put a group of Marines on trial in a different country because that would tell the world that we are the same as them. And we are not the same, and that is something that I am proud of.

And sad as it is, we cannot withdraw from that country right now, if we did, it would be worse off than before. The strong survive and make the rules in a third world country. Just look at what the taliban did in Afghan.

[Jesuslove]

They have not shamed America because they have not been found guilty yet. That comment about Moussaoui is absolutly absurd. It's these liberal views of what's "fair" and what is not that drive me absolutly insane. If someone is threatening our country or killing our civilians they will be tried on our soil. It is our RIGHT as the superpower of this world. You cannot put a group of Marines on trial in a different country because that would tell the world that we are the same as them. And we are not the same, and that is something that I am proud of.
It's our right as the superpower of the world? says who? that's why so many in the world hate us. we are viewed as bullies. sad! your views remind me of the views that were once espoused in Nazi Germany. We are not superior. God didn't not intend us to be viewed as superior to others. It is this attitude that will destroy America and turn the world against us.

[Grank]

What does any of this have to do with WMD's? WMD's are the supposed reason we went to war. If there wasn't 'faulty intelligence', we wouldn't have gone to war.
a man once said that it's not what one means to do or say, but what one does or says that truly matters. now keeping that in mind look at the iraq situation. we went in to confiscate weapons of mass destruction to make more people in this world safe, but what we really did was oust a fascist dictator who ruled through fear and violence to make more people safe. so i would say that is a plus in this negative filled world of ours.

It's our right as the superpower of the world? says who? that's why so many in the world hate us. we are viewed as bullies. sad! your views remind me of the views that were once espoused in Nazi Germany. We are not superior. God didn't not(sic) intend us to be viewed as superior to others. It is this attitude that will destroy America and turn the world against us.
i agree that we shouldn't have more rights than any other country. we do however have more power and in turn more responsibilty, but we should have the same rights. just cuz we have the most powerful military the world ahs ever seen doesn't mean we should stop listening to other people when looking at interantion affairs, disrepecting the rights of other sovereign nations or giving ourselves more rights. that being said, throughout history the rules have been made by who/what has the power to make them. in our country the people are supposed to have the power so the people make the rules. in the international front, we are the most dominant physical force. history would dictate that we have the power to make any rule we want, just as every dominant military has done before us. however, we try to use that power not to expand our rule, but protect others and let them rule themselves for the most part. this is pretty much unprecedented. so i don't see why any country should ever look at us with disdain.

[bholdj]

your views remind me of the views that were once espoused in Nazi Germany. We are not superior.

I agree as well that America has no "right" to do anything as a super power (U.N security council sees to that), if we did, than china has a right to do what it wants with illegal christians.

However, please don't give the Nazi's any credit here, anytime someone uses Hitler as a image to help their argument i roll my eyes, it makes hitler and all his cronnies roll in their graves :cool: .

[kiwisongbird]

It is precisely that attitude of superiority that Americans can tend to have that causes them to be regarded with a negative 'attitude' by many people from other countries...

When China becomes a super power will that mean that America will roll over and let them do whatever they want to do ?? :rolleyes: :eek:

[jwil59]

It is precisely that attitude of superiority that Americans can tend to have that causes them to be regarded with a negative 'attitude' by many people from other countries...

When China becomes a super power will that mean that America will roll over and let them do whatever they want to do ?? :rolleyes: :eek:


Good point.

Having military might does not put us on the moral high ground.

[kiwisongbird]

:)

[TheBus36(Retired)]

These soldiers have shamed our country and hurt our reputation abroad. And you want to look at them as heroes? I don't care if they would appreciate me or not. If someone murders someone else, I don't think I would value their opinion of me very highly.

I did not say, imply or even remotely hint I was looking upon these Marines as heroes. However, I did state they have not been found guily of these offenses at this point in time. Big difference there, my friend. If in fact, this is true, they will be found guilty and punished accordingly, as they should.

We know better than that, and that is not what United States Marines are trained to do. I'm sharing this with you because you don't have the slightest idea what United States Marines are trained to do, nor what it requires to earn that title, nor what happens to someone mentally and physically in the situation that these, and other military personnel are currently in. I equate your comments and views to the Monday morning quarterback, that once he has seen the replay of the delayed draw play on fourth and one that failed starts ranting and raving, and jumping up and down yelling they should have gone with the screen. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and judge, but without knowing all of the facts except those which we receive through the media, and the term fact should be used lightly there, we cannot make a subjective call one way or the other.

[Healing Oil]

How does America being attacked by Osama BinLaden and Al-Queda justify attacking Iraq? I don't understand the logic. Please enlighten me.
How does Pearl Harbor justify America going into Germany? Or do you not understand the logic here either?

Oh, and to that poster whose name I have forgotten, I have seen Baghdad ER too...It really was an incredible show.

[Jesuslove]

How does Pearl Harbor justify America going into Germany? Or do you not understand the logic here either?
Oil,
Do you understand this logic... since we attacked Iraq, does it justify America being attacked? Do you understand Oil?

[bholdj]

Oil,
Do you understand this logic... since we attacked Iraq, does it justify America being attacked? Do you understand Oil?

im confused, are you asking does our invasion justify 9/11?

[Healing Oil]

Oil,
Do you understand this logic... since we attacked Iraq, does it justify America being attacked? Do you understand Oil?
I am actually asking you an honest question, if you would be so kind as to answer it. If you dont want to, than I understand. Was Germany wrong?

[Mugirl04]

Are you serious? these Marines killed innocent civilians and you are worried about their civil rights?
If you commited a crime i hope you get civil rights. Two wrongs don't make a right. This could endanger marines people could say they commited a crime that they didn't (false accusation) now they have to sit trail here. It would be an unfair trial

[bholdj]

Are you serious? these Marines killed innocent civilians and you are worried about their civil rights?

umm, yes. The guys responsible for the Mi Lai massacre in Vietnam were put on trial by the United States Army, this is in my view the precedent for handeling the marines in question.

Yes, Calley was the only guy convicted in the Mi Lai massacre, yes nixon pardoned him, etc. But to ignore this and say to Iraq "yall can have them" is to ignore procedure, Bush is dropping in poll numbers already, can't tell me he will risk his numbers and ignore what the military has done in situations like this.

America is not superior, but those marines desrve a fair trial.

[Jesuslove]

umm, yes. The guys responsible for the Mi Lai massacre in Vietnam were put on trial by the United States Army, this is in my view the precedent for handeling the marines in question.

Yes, Calley was the only guy convicted in the Mi Lai massacre, yes nixon pardoned him, etc. But to ignore this and say to Iraq "yall can have them" is to ignore procedure, Bush is dropping in poll numbers already, can't tell me he will risk his numbers and ignore what the military has done in situations like this.

America is not superior, but those marines desrve a fair trial.
Are you suggesting the fair-minded Iraqis we helped get into power would be unfair, after all we did to help get them elected?

[Jesuslove]

I am actually asking you an honest question, if you would be so kind as to answer it. If you dont want to, than I understand. Was Germany wrong?
Of course Germany was wrong. Your turn, please answer my question.

[jwil59]

I agree we should all reserve judgement until all the facts come out. A CNN report last night said there were mitigating circumstances that showed favorably toward the Marines.

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion but this is what happens when our government sends our forces in harms way without a concrete set of objectives. Creating a democracy in Iraq is too generic. We will never control an entire country with the number of boots on the ground there. We soundly defeat a faction of the enemy but don't have the personell to hold an objective so the ememy reassembles in the same place. The enemy for the most part looks like the natives, my neighbor said they sometimes can't tell the difference. This is a mess, plain and simple. The administration blew it. I saw a rerun of an interview by Larry King with Cheney done on May 30, 2005. Cheney said the insurgency had been all but demolished, that the number of incidents involving IEDs and car bombs were dramitically decreasing. Maybe that's why he has a whopping 13% approval rating. Bush says the Generals and military personell running the war claim to have all the resources they need. The same Generals are now saying that is not true. My neighbor says Army personell were scrambling all over the theatre trying to fing armour for their humvees.

Please don't ask me what I would do different. I have no suggestions and quite frankly don't think I should. It not my job, I cast a vote for W to do it for me. This guy can't even protect our own borders, minds less Iraq's borders.

[bdfwinn]

Oil,
Do you understand this logic... since we attacked Iraq, does it justify America being attacked? Do you understand Oil?

You can't be serious! JL do you still believe that Saddam and Bin Laden were not in bed together? Gimme a break!

Bill

Tired of the same old bovine excrement.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Tired of the same old bovine excrement.

Pastor Bill!! Thanks for the new SAFE term!!;)

[bdfwinn]

Pastor Bill!! Thanks for the new SAFE term!!;)

Must admit I borrowd that from my mentor when I was training to be a pastor.
Bill

[jwil59]

You can't be serious! JL do you still believe that Saddam and Bin Laden were not in bed together? Gimme a break!

Bill

Tired of the same old bovine excrement.


I thought Bin Laden and Saddam were on oppisite ends of the spectrum as far as Isalm goes. Was anyone ever able to prove a connection between the two? Im asking cause I don't remember ever seeing anything to that effect except what W and Cheney said. Nothing would make me any happier than for someone to prove that fact.

[HotWireD]

I thought Bin Laden and Saddam were on oppisite ends of the spectrum as far as Isalm goes. Was anyone ever able to prove a connection between the two? Im asking cause I don't remember ever seeing anything to that effect except what W and Cheney said. Nothing would make me any happier than for someone to prove that fact.

I thought so too.

I thought that up until Saddam annoyed the West by invading Kuwait, he was our ally against Islamic extremists. We were quite happy for him to subjugate the extremists in his own country.

Ironically, he is now on trial for atrocities he committed when he was one our side, not for any atrocities he committed since the first Gulf War.

Bin Laden was/is against Muslim countries that sided/side with the West.

I stand ready to be corrected...

[bdfwinn]

I thought Bin Laden and Saddam were on oppisite ends of the spectrum as far as Isalm goes. Was anyone ever able to prove a connection between the two? Im asking cause I don't remember ever seeing anything to that effect except what W and Cheney said. Nothing would make me any happier than for someone to prove that fact.

Bin Laden and Hussein are religiously polar opposites but they cooperated in the bombing of the USS Cole. I read that recently someplace but cannot find the link I saved in my favorites. Also when we got into Iraq our troops discovered a terrorist training camp complete with a jumbo jet fuselage mockup in Salman Pak. Coincidence? :rolleyes:

Also the Germans arrested several Iraqi officials on charges of espionage prior to 911. The CIA and the Germans were aware that Hussein and Bin Laden were working together to attack US interests. Due to DUMB STUPID laws the CIA was not authorized to share that information with other law enforcement entities.

Saddam was in bed with Bin Laden. I believe that.

Bill

[Jesuslove]

Bin Laden and Hussein are religiously polar opposites but they cooperated in the bombing of the USS Cole. I read that recently someplace but cannot find the link I saved in my favorites. Also when we got into Iraq our troops discovered a terrorist training camp complete with a jumbo jet fuselage mockup in Salman Pak. Coincidence? :rolleyes:

Also the Germans arrested several Iraqi officials on charges of espionage prior to 911. The CIA and the Germans were aware that Hussein and Bin Laden were working together to attack US interests. Due to DUMB STUPID laws the CIA was not authorized to share that information with other law enforcement entities.

Saddam was in bed with Bin Laden. I believe that.

Bill
do you have articles to back this up?

[jwil59]

Yeah I have heard of the connections to the Cole bombing but mostly in op ed opinion peices. What we do know since the invasion of Iraq is that Saddam was a very accurate record keeper. There was some guy named Shakir (i think that's his name) who went to the 2000 Al Queda summit but documents do not show if he was sent by Saddam or went on his own. History will tell the tale. I guess we will just have to wait.

[kiwisongbird]

Pearl Harbour comment... I always wondered why America didn't help in WW2 earlier?? Surely less people would have died and the war ended much sooner if they hadn't simply waited until they were attacked??

9/11.... is it proven that Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with this, if this is the reason the war is happening?

Does the average Joe Iraqi want democracy or do you think they would prefer a benevolent dictatorship? Do you think democracy will work in Iraq?

I think it's good that the marines are investigated in America - that's going by the rules isn't it? :) :)

[jwil59]

Pearl Harbour comment... I always wondered why America didn't help in WW2 earlier?? Surely less people would have died and the war ended much sooner if they hadn't simply waited until they were attacked??

9/11.... is it proven that Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with this, if this is the reason the war is happening?

Does the average Joe Iraqi want democracy or do you think they would prefer a benevolent dictatorship? Do you think democracy will work in Iraq?

I think it's good that the marines are investigated in America - that's going by the rules isn't it? :) :)

If the government has proof Saddam had anything to do with 911, they are not saying so yet. If they had it, I think they would talk because of the beating they are taking on the war.

The average Joe probably does want Democracy. Sadly enough, at this point the countries political situation is controlled by 2 warring factions, the sunnies and shiites. They are worse than Democrats and Republicans in their partianship. If these two groups can compromise, democracy will take hold. If not....well then you have the current situation which is a civil war. This is just one article on this.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/26/eveningnews/main886305.shtml

[Howlin' Wolf]

Pearl Harbour comment... I always wondered why America didn't help in WW2 earlier?? Surely less people would have died and the war ended much sooner if they hadn't simply waited until they were attacked??

9/11.... is it proven that Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with this, if this is the reason the war is happening?

Does the average Joe Iraqi want democracy or do you think they would prefer a benevolent dictatorship? Do you think democracy will work in Iraq?

I think it's good that the marines are investigated in America - that's going by the rules isn't it? :) :)

democracy will not work in iraq. too many ethnic groupswith deepseeded hatred for one another, in addition to tribal clans inside said ethnic groups. the key to peace and order is an outside ruling force in place with no vested ties to any group. i.e. the hashemites in Jordan

[cheewiee]

Pearl Harbour comment... I always wondered why America didn't help in WW2 earlier?? Surely less people would have died and the war ended much sooner if they hadn't simply waited until they were attacked??

9/11.... is it proven that Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with this, if this is the reason the war is happening?

Does the average Joe Iraqi want democracy or do you think they would prefer a benevolent dictatorship? Do you think democracy will work in Iraq?

I think it's good that the marines are investigated in America - that's going by the rules isn't it? :) :)

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. They were however well connected with terrorists, engaged in state sponsored terrorisim, by exporting it to Israel/Palestine in the form of Payments to family's of suicide bombers.

By this reason alone, being the most active state sponser of terrorisim, it would make sense that they would be the next target in our global war AGAINST terror...

With that said...

Iraq has three ethinic populations. You have the Shiaa who represent the majority of Iraqi's in southern Iraq. This group would prefer a theocracy based on Shiara law, similar to Iran. They were oppressed by Saddam, and were victims of several of his tantrums... The Sunny's are a more secular branch of Islam, this particular group is the group that florished under Saddam, Then you the Kurds. The Kurds span between Iraq and Turkey, and Turkish military over the years has made small incursions into kurdish Iraq in order to stop kurdish uprisings in Turkey. The Kurds would be the group most likely to want to adopt a democracy. They to were heavely oppressed by the Hussein Regeme...

Also it is interesting to Note that most of the countries Oil Supplies are divided between the Shiaa and the Kurds, leaving the Sunnys without any major resource...

[jwil59]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. They were however well connected with terrorists, engaged in state sponsored terrorisim, by exporting it to Israel/Palestine in the form of Payments to family's of suicide bombers.

By this reason alone, being the most active state sponser of terrorisim, it would make sense that they would be the next target in our global war AGAINST terror...

With that said...

Iraq has three ethinic populations. You have the Shiaa who represent the majority of Iraqi's in southern Iraq. This group would prefer a theocracy based on Shiara law, similar to Iran. They were oppressed by Saddam, and were victims of several of his tantrums... The Sunny's are a more secular branch of Islam, this particular group is the group that florished under Saddam, Then you the Kurds. The Kurds span between Iraq and Turkey, and Turkish military over the years has made small incursions into kurdish Iraq in order to stop kurdish uprisings in Turkey. The Kurds would be the group most likely to want to adopt a democracy. They to were heavely oppressed by the Hussein Regeme...

Also it is interesting to Note that most of the countries Oil Supplies are divided between the Shiaa and the Kurds, leaving the Sunnys without any major resource...

Interesting. I thought the Sunnies had the oil money too. Live and learn. The last parliment meeting lasted 30 minutes, and all sides stormed out. Democracy is going to be tough.

Do you really think that Iraq was the most active state sponser of terrorism? That's what W wants you to think. They did send money to the families of suicide bombers but their contribution to terrorism is not even close to that of Iran, Palestine, Yemin, Libya(who all the subben is W's buddy),Afganastan,and Syria.

[cheewiee]

Interesting. I thought the Sunnies had the oil money too. Live and learn. The last parliment meeting lasted 30 minutes, and all sides stormed out. Democracy is going to be tough.

Do you really think that Iraq was the most active state sponser of terrorism? That's what W wants you to think. They did send money to the families of suicide bombers but their contribution to terrorism is not even close to that of Iran, Palestine, Yemin, Libya(who all the subben is W's buddy),Afganastan,and Syria.

Well Afganastan when we invaded Iraq had been mostly delt with... However on the list of Countries engaged in State Sponsered terrorisim, Iraq was DEFINALY the most vocal about it... Also, I belive that W believed Iraq would be the easiest to get the global community behind...

They were in clear violation of several conditions of the Ceasefire agreement, most the world believed they had WMD's, and the UN's Oil for Food Embezlement scheme really needed to end...

But looking at the other countries..
Palestine... Isn't a state...
Afganastan was being delt with
Iran would be an EXTREMLY rough next stop, especially with Hussein next door...
Syria was to busy in Lebanon to be much of a real menace...

By dealing with Iraq, we showed the Islamic world that the US means business ... With all this backpeddeling, I fear that we are sending mixed messages to those whom would like to bring harm against us... and I belive that is a GRAVE mistake....

[jwil59]

Well Afganastan when we invaded Iraq had been mostly delt with... However on the list of Countries engaged in State Sponsered terrorisim, Iraq was DEFINALY the most vocal about it... Also, I belive that W believed Iraq would be the easiest to get the global community behind...

They were in clear violation of several conditions of the Ceasefire agreement, most the world believed they had WMD's, and the UN's Oil for Food Embezlement scheme really needed to end...

But looking at the other countries..
Palestine... Isn't a state...
Afganastan was being delt with
Iran would be an EXTREMLY rough next stop, especially with Hussein next door...
Syria was to busy in Lebanon to be much of a real menace...

By dealing with Iraq, we showed the Islamic world that the US means business ... With all this backpeddeling, I fear that we are sending mixed messages to those whom would like to bring harm against us... and I belive that is a GRAVE mistake....

Good points!!

I do disagree that Afganastan has been delt with. Taliban forces are on somewhat of a comeback. The problem there is the same as Iraq, not enough people to hold our objectives. I am afraid there are more troubles there down the road. Can't fight a politically correct war and win. My opinion is that all we have really done in Iraq is provide a recruitment tool for the terrorists. The Muslim world is not at all happy about the invasion. Anyone who thinks they are scared is highly underestimating the enemy, the first no-no of warfare.
Iran is 10 times the threat Iraq ever was.

[cheewiee]

Good points!!

I do disagree that Afganastan has been delt with. Taliban forces are on somewhat of a comeback. The problem there is the same as Iraq, not enough people to hold our objectives. Can't fight a politically correct war and win. My opinion is that all we have really done in Iraq is provide a recruitment tool for the terrorists. The Muslim world is not at all happy about the invasion. Anyone who thinks they are scared is highly underestimating the enemy, the first no-no of warfare.

I wont dispute that the Taliban is making a bit of a comeback..

I think the problem is, is that Islam for the most part is in fact a false religion, with goals for a global theocracy. People don't want to admit it, but can you name three decent size conflicts in the past ten years that didn't involve muslims...

Chechnya, Bosnia, Rowanda, all of them involved Muslims. About the only one I could come up with was the Congo...

Until we as a nation realize that and decide to stop funding these whacko's by buying hummers that guzzle gas like Barnie drinking beer at Moes, we are not going to get out of this situation. We are beholden to leaders that want to see our way of life changed, because we have an addiction to Oil. No prolonged war on terror will change that... only a national movement, similar to the man on the moon effort of the 60's where the government does and spends what ever it takes to get us off of it, will we actually be able to make headway in the war on terror.

I realize that this sounds like a gigantic social program that will cost taxpayers billions if not trillions of dollars.. but so what... I would rather figureout how to pay American Farmers to grow American crops to turn that into American fuel, than continue to fund Osama's little war by virture of the gas pump....

[jwil59]

I wont dispute that the Taliban is making a bit of a comeback..

I think the problem is, is that Islam for the most part is in fact a false religion, with goals for a global theocracy. People don't want to admit it, but can you name three decent size conflicts in the past ten years that didn't involve muslims...

Chechnya, Bosnia, Rowanda, all of them involved Muslims. About the only one I could come up with was the Congo...

Until we as a nation realize that and decide to stop funding these whacko's by buying hummers that guzzle gas like Barnie drinking beer at Moes, we are not going to get out of this situation. We are beholden to leaders that want to see our way of life changed, because we have an addiction to Oil. No prolonged war on terror will change that... only a national movement, similar to the man on the moon effort of the 60's where the government does and spends what ever it takes to get us off of it, will we actually be able to make headway in the war on terror.

I realize that this sounds like a gigantic social program that will cost taxpayers billions if not trillions of dollars.. but so what... I would rather figureout how to pay American Farmers to grow American crops to turn that into American fuel, than continue to fund Osama's little war by virture of the gas pump....

I agree, our dependence on their oil is embarassing. I'm with ya man, lets do what it takes. We can't kill em' all so hit em' where it hurts the worst. MONEY.

Sadly, the energy bill passed this year does not resemble what you just said. Maybe a little, but nothing short term. Those huge profits for the American oil companies just tick me off too. If only they felt as you do, I think they could be a huge help in the war on terror.

[cheewiee]

I agree, our dependence on their oil is embarassing. I'm with ya man, lets do what it takes. We can't kill em' all so hit em' where it hurts the worst. MONEY.

Sadly, the energy bill passed this year does not resemble what you just said. Maybe a little, but nothing short term. Those huge profits for the American oil companies just tick me off too. If only they felt as you do, I think they could be a huge help in the war on terror.

And before anyone begins to jump on this to criticize the Bush Administraiton or the GOP (Not saying you would jwil59, but I just wanted to springboard from your post) for that matter, realize that both major political parties are beholden to the large Oil companies. Shell, Exxon and mobile all spend great deals of cash on Campains of candidtates of both parties...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

And before anyone begins to jump on this to criticize the Bush Administraiton or the GOP (Not saying you would jwil59, but I just wanted to springboard from your post) for that matter, realize that both major political parties are beholden to the large Oil companies. Shell, Exxon and mobile all spend great deals of cash on Campains of candidtates of both parties...

No way!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean it isn't just the current administration that benefits? That's so not true:rolleyes:

Sorry. I'll make my next comment more adult.

[bdfwinn]

I agree, our dependence on their oil is embarassing. I'm with ya man, lets do what it takes. We can't kill em' all so hit em' where it hurts the worst. MONEY.

Sadly, the energy bill passed this year does not resemble what you just said. Maybe a little, but nothing short term. Those huge profits for the American oil companies just tick me off too. If only they felt as you do, I think they could be a huge help in the war on terror.

Those "huge" profits resulted from global business. (they do business all over the world) They make a 9% profit. McDonalds makes more profit from 20 ounces of Coke than "Big oil" makes on 1 gallon of gasoline. It is amazing to me that the national media is so effective in brainwashing us.



Back to the Marines, they are innocent.

Bill

[cheewiee]

Those "huge" profits resulted from global business. (they do business all over the world) They make a 9% profit. McDonalds makes more profit from 20 ounces of Coke than "Big oil" makes on 1 gallon of gasoline. It is amazing to me that the national media is so effective in brainwashing us.
Bill

Regardless of the perceived profit... We are still heavly dependant on foreign oil supplies, because we as a nation have settled for cheap gas instead of developing a renewable, cost effective, replacement. Who do you think it is that benefits from us NOT going that route at the current moment in time?

Terrorists and Jabba necked oil executives...

It is time for our nation to step up and really go after biofuels with the vigor in which we went after the moon...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Back to the Marines, they are innocent.
Bill

Of course they are, at least until they are proven otherwise in a court of law. You know, I'm very surprised (not really) at the reaction in this thread, but what you haven't heard anything about are the many humanitarian missions the United States Marince Corps are sent on, forcing them to be away from their families for wedding anniversarys, births of children, birthdays, etc.

[ObiShawn]

Of course they are, at least until they are proven otherwise in a court of law. You know, I'm very surprised (not really) at the reaction in this thread, but what you haven't heard anything about are the many humanitarian missions the United States Marince Corps are sent on, forcing them to be away from their families for wedding anniversarys, births of children, birthdays, etc.Of course not, that would humanize them. Some people would rather think of them as cold, heartless killing machines.

[bdfwinn]

Of course they are, at least until they are proven otherwise in a court of law. You know, I'm very surprised (not really) at the reaction in this thread, but what you haven't heard anything about are the many humanitarian missions the United States Marince Corps are sent on, forcing them to be away from their families for wedding anniversarys, births of children, birthdays, etc.

AMEN!!!!

Never saw any other countries sending forces to the Gulf Coast of the US after Katrina and Rita.

The Marines rock!

"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!"
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945

"We signed up knowing the risk. Those innocent people in New York didn't go to work thinking there was any kind of risk."
Pvt. Mike Armendariz-Clark, USMC; Afghanastan, 20 September 2001
As reported on page 1 of the New York Times

one of my best friends retired a Gunny Sgt. from the USMC II Marine Expeditionart Force.

one more good quote

"I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!"
General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur; Korea, 21 September 1950

Bill

[Mugirl04]

It is precisely that attitude of superiority that Americans can tend to have that causes them to be regarded with a negative 'attitude' by many people from other countries...

When China becomes a super power will that mean that America will roll over and let them do whatever they want to do ?? :rolleyes: :eek:
china will never be a super power

[Mugirl04]

Pearl Harbour comment... I always wondered why America didn't help in WW2 earlier?? Surely less people would have died and the war ended much sooner if they hadn't simply waited until they were attacked??

9/11.... is it proven that Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with this, if this is the reason the war is happening?

Does the average Joe Iraqi want democracy or do you think they would prefer a benevolent dictatorship? Do you think democracy will work in Iraq?

I think it's good that the marines are investigated in America - that's going by the rules isn't it? :) :)
everyone wants democracy. I mean a ruthless dictator or democracy. I don't think it will work because iraq is votile place but then again did people think it would work for america. i think it depends who you ask if they want democracy. those in power of course not but i think most of the average citizens would wnat it

[Mugirl04]

Of course they are, at least until they are proven otherwise in a court of law. You know, I'm very surprised (not really) at the reaction in this thread, but what you haven't heard anything about are the many humanitarian missions the United States Marince Corps are sent on, forcing them to be away from their families for wedding anniversarys, births of children, birthdays, etc.
Good point. My dad's in the army and the only time it comes up is when things are going wrong or when people want to protray them as something they are not. But do you hear the good stories of our heros over there hardly. Let me just say there are heroic story over there we just don't here them

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Good point. My dad's in the army and the only time it comes up is when things are going wrong or when people want to protray them as something they are not. But do you hear the good stories of our heros over there hardly. Let me just say there are heroic story over there we just don't here them

There are more than you'll ever know. No one wants to hear those because they don't create controversy and sell airtime for tv and radio. Let's face it, reporters are not climbing over each other to break a story and have their name attached to it if it isn't going to be talked about over and over, and over, and over until you're ready to puke you've heard about it so much. Like I said before, You don't see anyone creating a thread to the effect "Hey, I know I bash these guys daily, even though they willingly give their lives for me to have that right, but here's a story how they saved an innocent family from a horrible, horrible man."

Instead they make the Imbecilic comment "we should turn them over to the Iraqi Government"

[Gandalf]

Pearl Harbour comment... I always wondered why America didn't help in WW2 earlier?? Surely less people would have died and the war ended much sooner if they hadn't simply waited until they were attacked??
Probably, but public opinion here was strongly against getting involved in what was perceived to be basically a European affair until we were directly attacked.
9/11.... is it proven that Saddam/Iraq had anything to do with this, if this is the reason the war is happening?
It's never been claimed that he was behind 9/11. That's just a straw man set up by the anti-war crowd.

[jwil59]

[QUOTE=Gandalf
It's never been claimed that he was behind 9/11. That's just a straw man set up by the anti-war crowd.[/QUOTE]


Bush himself never claimed Saddam was involved in 911. He just danced around it in his 2003 address to the nation trying to gain support for the invasion. Later that year after the invasion, he came out and said there was no link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm

A Republican Congressman in 2005 said there was a link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/29/hayes.911/


I don't think we will ever know the truth about that.

[jwil59]

Getting back to the topic.....

Do we know any facts about these Marines?

I heard a report today that they had just seen one of their fellow Marines literaly blown in half by an IED and the men who were shot were on the scene. If that's the case, there has to be some mitigating circumstances. It is war isn't it?

Anyone know anything?

[DareDevil]

There are more than you'll ever know. No one wants to hear those because they don't create controversy and sell airtime for tv and radio. Let's face it, reporters are not climbing over each other to break a story and have their name attached to it if it isn't going to be talked about over and over, and over, and over until you're ready to puke you've heard about it so much. Like I said before, You don't see anyone creating a thread to the effect "Hey, I know I bash these guys daily, even though they willingly give their lives for me to have that right, but here's a story how they saved an innocent family from a horrible, horrible man."

Instead they make the Imbecilic comment "we should turn them over to the Iraqi Government"
No offense intended, but I would not call this demandment "imbecilic" as such. Whether it is "imbecilic" or not depends on how it is delivered. Still, I suppose you mean the kind of journalist who is not interested in an objective comment that takes legal treaties between the USA and the Iraq into account, right?

[Howlin' Wolf]

democracy will not work in iraq. too many ethnic groupswith deepseeded hatred for one another, in addition to tribal clans inside said ethnic groups. the key to peace and order is an outside ruling force in place with no vested ties to any group. i.e. the hashemites in Jordan

bump

[TheBus36(Retired)]

No offense intended, but I would not call this demandment "imbecilic" as such. Whether it is "imbecilic" or not depends on how it is delivered. Still, I suppose you mean the kind of journalist who is not interested in an objective comment that takes legal treaties between the USA and the Iraq into account, right?

Go back and read the thread, and then comment. You're not even close. I was referring specifically to a comment made by a respondent. Debate with me when you have something Objective, otherwise please know what you are actually replying to before you start blasting someone.

[bdfwinn]

Just heard on the radio that 9 of the Marines involved in all this are in solitary confinement at Camp Pendleton. This is a shame! These men are innocent!:mad:

Marines stand between us and terror, Marine Corps tradition and lore go back to the founding of our Nation and now these Marines are being thrown under the bus.

I am going now before I spit nails.

Bill

[jwil59]

That's a shame.

[ObiShawn]

Just heard on the radio that 9 of the Marines involved in all this are in solitary confinement at Camp Pendleton. This is a shame! These men are innocent!:mad: As much as I hope these guys are found to be innocent, being in solitary isn't necessarily a bad thing. They probably should be held in some sort of custody and solitary seems logical so that they can't all discuss and agree on a false story, if they are in fact guilty.

[jwil59]

I just don't think that Marines, who are presently involved in warfare, should be treated as common criminals. It's war.

[bdfwinn]

As much as I hope these guys are found to be innocent, being in solitary isn't necessarily a bad thing. They probably should be held in some sort of custody and solitary seems logical so that they can't all discuss and agree on a false story, if they are in fact guilty.


They ARE innocent. They must be found to be guilty!

Bill

[TheBus36(Retired)]

They ARE innocent. They must be found to be guilty!

Bill

They may be a feeling that he charges warrant pre-trial confinement, but the unit in which they belong has 72 hours to produce what's called a 72 hour letter and explain to a magistrate why they should be held in ptc. I don't believe they can be put in solitary unless they have changed it.

[DareDevil]

Go back and read the thread, and then comment. You're not even close. I was referring specifically to a comment made by a respondent. Debate with me when you have something Objective, otherwise please know what you are actually replying to before you start blasting someone.
You'd know it if I was blasting you. I can assure you of that. http://www.nsaheadquarters.info/images/tongue006.gif

[TheBus36(Retired)]

You'd know it if I was blasting you. I can assure you of that. http://www.nsaheadquarters.info/images/tongue006.gif

Oh, one of them, huh?:rolleyes: I didn't mean for that to sound so harsh, sorr. Blasting probably wasn't the right term. I was referring to a remark made by someone else.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

They ARE innocent. They must be found to be guilty!

Bill

Pastor Bill I hope you're right, but while we have had a good amount of debate over this subject, and mostly because this thread was put here just to serve a personal agenda above any possible constructive purpose, I will tell you that unfortunately, there is always the possibility some portion or all of this could be true. Knowing that the United States Marine Corps usually have what we used to call the 10% and labled them SB's (Safe Term plus Birds) even those type of folks seem to rise to the top in situations that warrant extreme focus and performance.

Marines are trained to kill, period, end of story. However, I can't imagine, in my wildest dreams that a Marine or group of Marines would be capable of executing men, women and children for anything other than enjoyment or misplaced rage or emotion. It simply isn't in them, nor are they trained to do that. Maybe one here or there may crack and do something so insanely stupid, but not an entire squad. How many times have we seen in the past (i.e. Desert Storm) the Iraqi's conveniently having "civilians" in an area that was bombed by us. I certainly would not put it past one of the radical factions to have done this and then lay this at the feet of the American military.

[bdfwinn]

Pastor Bill I hope you're right, but while we have had a good amount of debate over this subject, and mostly because this thread was put here just to serve a personal agenda above any possible constructive purpose, I will tell you that unfortunately, there is always the possibility some portion or all of this could be true. Knowing that the United States Marine Corps usually have what we used to call the 10% and labled them SB's (Safe Term plus Birds) even those type of folks seem to rise to the top in situations that warrant extreme focus and performance.

Marines are trained to kill, period, end of story. However, I can't imagine, in my wildest dreams that a Marine or group of Marines would be capable of executing men, women and children for anything other than enjoyment or misplaced rage or emotion. It simply isn't in them, nor are they trained to do that. Maybe one here or there may crack and do something so insanely stupid, but not an entire squad. How many times have we seen in the past (i.e. Desert Storm) the Iraqi's conveniently having "civilians" in an area that was bombed by us. I certainly would not put it past one of the radical factions to have done this and then lay this at the feet of the American military.


I appreciate your comments. When I said they Are innocent I was referring to the fact that in our justice system and even in the UCMJ they are innocent until proven guilty and I was flabbergasted by the idea that they must be "proven innocent".

That is all I meant. I know that the Marines in question may have done something unimaginably terrible but after all the USMC has done for our GREAT country I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Bill

edit for spelling sorry

[TheBus36(Retired)]

I appreciate your comments. When I said they Are innocent I was refering to the fact that in our justuce system and even in the UCMJ they are innocent until proven guilty and I was flabergasted by the idea that they must be "proven innocent".

That is all I meant. I know that the Marines in question may have done something unimaginably terrible but after all the USMC has done for our GREAT country I will give them the benifit of the doubt.

Bill

Oh, I didn't take issue with anything you have said. I agree with you 100% They are, or at least should be innocent until proven guilty at a Courts-Martial.

[bdfwinn]

Bus I wish more people thought that way. Seems Steelers fans have a greater capacity for reasoning.:)
Bill

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Bus I wish more people thought that way. Seems Steelers fans have a greater capacity for reasoning.:)
Bill

Yes, yes we do!!!!!!:D

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Here you go Paster Bill!!!!!!!



http://www.kmike.com/Haditha.htm

[bdfwinn]

Bus,
That was awesome. Thanks for posting that. I don't know how anyone could read that and not well up with pride because of our US Marines.

I am sure some will read that and still despise our troops just because they have the freedom to do so and the lack of integrity to use said freedom, but I think most people will agree the Marines make us proud and they have always made us proud.

I believe in the end it will be found that either the Marines are totally innocent or they were thrown under the bus by weak minded men due to pressure from false news coverage and a media that hates military men and women.

That is my EXTREMELY biased opinion... nothing humble about it!

Bill

BTW Bus, I guess Ben will be okay but the team should fine him and bar him from riding motorcycles. He may even need a good spanking with a nice leather belt. (Act like a child....)

[TheBus36(Retired)]

Bus,
That was awesome. Thanks for posting that. I don't know how anyone could read that and not well up with pride because of our US Marines.

I am sure some will read that and still despise our troops just because they have the freedom to do so and the lack of integrity to use said freedom, but I think most people will agree the Marines make us proud and they have always made us proud.

I believe in the end it will be found that either the Marines are totally innocent or they were thrown under the bus by weak minded men due to pressure from false news coverage and a media that hates military men and women.

That is my EXTREMELY biased opinion... nothing humble about it!

Bill

BTW Bus, I guess Ben will be okay but the team should fine him and bar him from riding motorcycles. He may even need a good spanking with a nice leather belt. (Act like a child....)

I agree on all points!!!!!!!!!!!!! I personally think the story and/or circumstances were fabricated.