Abortion and what banning it means

[mikedevilsfan]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case. But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?
There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael

[matt15]

it has become the easy way out. you could make people think a lot harder about the decisions they make if there wasn't a way to get out of the consequences so easily. same with marraige. if divorce wasn't so easy then people would be thinking harder about what it really means.
and there are states that are starting to ban it. South dakota has already passed the bill i believe, as well as mississippi. they allow it only if the mother's life is in danger.

[kh294God]

in my eyes there isn't really a good enough reason to have an abortion.
but that's just me

[Jesuslove]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case. But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?
There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael
Mike,
I have made this arguement many times. There are half a million kids in foster care now that could be adopted. Many will never be adopted. What would we do with millions more? I'm very much pro-life, but the pro-life community doesn't have an answer for this. There is no solution and qualified Christian couples won't step up and take care of the kids already in the system.

[matt15]

Mike,
I have made this arguement many times. There are half a million kids in foster care now that could be adopted. Many will never be adopted. What would we do with millions more? I'm very much pro-life, but the pro-life community doesn't have an answer for this. There is no solution and qualified Christian couples won't step up and take care of the kids already in the system.



you're wrong, there is a solution. if you don't want the kid, then keep your pants up!

[ObiShawn]

Mike,
I have made this arguement many times. There are half a million kids in foster care now that could be adopted. Many will never be adopted. What would we do with millions more? I'm very much pro-life, but the pro-life community doesn't have an answer for this. There is no solution and qualified Christian couples won't step up and take care of the kids already in the system.

Ok, let's try this again.

Jesuslove, in another topic said -


If these 40 million babies were alive, there would probably be 50 million or more unwanted (meaning "not properly cared for") people in America right now. We'd be a third world country. We have half a million children in foster care or up for adoption in America now. Our system would be overburdened. That's not to justify abortion, but you can't ignore the impact banning abortion would have.Now, while saying that he wasn't trying to provide justification for all of the abortions, pretty much implied that it is still a good thing that all of the abortions have happened. His point being that . . .


1 - people wouldn't be properly cared for
2 - it would lead to us (the US) becoming a third world country
3 - our system would be over burdened
4 - and half a million children in fostercare or up for adoption.

Now, my point is this, what makes all of the hypothetical unaborted babies any different than the illegal immigrants that he wants to allow to become US citizens?

Or are you just going to keep on avoiding the question?

[cheewiee]

Mike,
I have made this arguement many times. There are half a million kids in foster care now that could be adopted. Many will never be adopted. What would we do with millions more? I'm very much pro-life, but the pro-life community doesn't have an answer for this. There is no solution and qualified Christian couples won't step up and take care of the kids already in the system.

Your right Jesuslove there are a half a million kids in fostercare right now that could be adopted... Do you know why they are not? Because they are not cute little babies... They are older, they ahve been abused, physcially mentally, and sexually.

The fact is had the parents of these kids, put them up for adoption when they had them, they would have been adopted as infants..

The attitude portrayed in your post is the problem I have with most liberals... That we should forgo the moral route, to take the easy route. Well I have to tell you brother, serving Jesus isn't easy, and if you can justify the infantcide of 40 MILLION BABIES in the US Alone under the guise of not finding anyone to adopt them, You really need to go evaluate what you consider to be your morality.

You sit there and believe we should take on the burden of Illegal Immigrant Mexicans but all of a sudden it becomes to hard when it comes to the matter of a life...

Don't sit there on your computer and lecture me about being racist because I believe Illegal immigration to be a problem, while you find ways to justify the mass murder of what would amount to be an entire generation of Americans.

It is this issue, and this issue alone that really stands in the way between me and voting for certain candidates... Do I let one issue decide my vote, When it concerns the lives of FOURTY MILLION BABIES your darned skippy it does...

[Mugirl04]

Mike,
I have made this arguement many times. There are half a million kids in foster care now that could be adopted. Many will never be adopted. What would we do with millions more? I'm very much pro-life, but the pro-life community doesn't have an answer for this. There is no solution and qualified Christian couples won't step up and take care of the kids already in the system.
If though adopting is honorable deed I think you need to be called by God to do it. Foster Kids have been through a lot. It is hard just to take a kid in your home. I don't think it should be good christian people adopt, if you have other kids you need to consider a lot of things. Some of these kids have mental problems because they are drug babies. So even though it is hard, the last thing we need is people getting in over there head and then sending the kids back this causes more damage

[jwil59]

When we wonder as to how many of these aborted babies would have been orphans, we should also think about how many might have been doctors, Senators, or maybe even President.

My belief is that human life is a perfect creation of Almighty God, the destiny of which should be left in His hands.

[Healing Oil]

Your right Jesuslove there are a half a million kids in fostercare right now that could be adopted... Do you know why they are not? Because they are not cute little babies... They are older, they ahve been abused, physcially mentally, and sexually.

The fact is had the parents of these kids, put them up for adoption when they had them, they would have been adopted as infants..

The attitude portrayed in your post is the problem I have with most liberals... That we should forgo the moral route, to take the easy route. Well I have to tell you brother, serving Jesus isn't easy, and if you can justify the infantcide of 40 MILLION BABIES in the US Alone under the guise of not finding anyone to adopt them, You really need to go evaluate what you consider to be your morality.

You sit there and believe we should take on the burden of Illegal Immigrant Mexicans but all of a sudden it becomes to hard when it comes to the matter of a life...

Don't sit there on your computer and lecture me about being racist because I believe Illegal immigration to be a problem, while you find ways to justify the mass murder of what would amount to be an entire generation of Americans.

It is this issue, and this issue alone that really stands in the way between me and voting for certain candidates... Do I let one issue decide my vote, When it concerns the lives of FOURTY MILLION BABIES your darned skippy it does...
Very nice post.

[Jason]

When we wonder as to how many of these aborted babies would have been orphans, we should also think about how many might have been doctors, Senators, or maybe even President.


Or me.

When I was in a public speaking class in college, a fellow classmate did a speech on abortion. During this speech, he said, “I want you to close your eyes and imagine that you have a pregnant friend. This friend has been told by doctors that because her husband is disabled, there is a high probability their child will be disabled and possibly end up confined to a wheelchair. How many of you would suggest to your friend that she get an abortion? To those who suggested she get an abortion, you just killed your classmate Jason Mitchener.”

[pianoprincess*]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case.
Amen!

But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?

Letting drugs take over your life is a sin. having a child out of wedlock is a sin. Killing a human is a sin. (A baby is a human. I shouldn't even have to say that but some people don't seem to think so.) Whay on earth would we try to fix sin with sin?? Not only is is murder, but abortion for the christian is also very bad logic...

There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael

awesome though though...I enjoyed thinking about it;)

[jwil59]

Or me.

When I was in a public speaking class in college, a fellow classmate did a speech on abortion. During this speech, he said, “I want you to close your eyes and imagine that you have a pregnant friend. This friend has been told by doctors that because her husband is disabled, there is a high probability their child will be disabled and possibly end up confined to a wheelchair. How many of you would suggest to your friend that she get an abortion? To those who suggested she get an abortion, you just killed your classmate Jason Mitchener.”

Disclaimer: I don't know how to spell the medical terms

My sister got pregnant at age 40 with her youngest bundle of joy. The doctors told her the fetus would be born with downs syndrome and hydroceffeli(water on the brain). They scheduled her for an amniocentesis in Birmingham to find out the extent of the fetus' diseases so, in their words, she could decide if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy. She told them thanks but no thanks cause abortion was not an option. Sonogram after sonogram had the medical experts convinced this child would be born with severe disabilities and they kept encouraging her to consider terminating the pregnancy. She chose to trust God and we prayed. At the time I was working in the retail business and i remember the day mt store manager, his assistant, and I snuck in a back storeroom to pray for my sister. That was the first time I ever personally prayed with anyone who spoke in tounges. That was in 1995.

This past Saturday afternoon I watched my nephew pitch a 2 hitter in a little league baseball game. PRAISE GOD!!

[Evanescence]

Ok, you guys know that I believe there should be a balance to all things. That not all things are black and white and that people should be given the benefit of the doubt. I do feel this way, with the exception of abortion.

I feel that abortion should be banned. Give a 6 month moratorium to let everyone know that on....such and such date, it will be in effect. Legislation will provide monies for larger prisons and the fascilities for capital punishment....for those that carry out abortions.

Any and all women that have abortions would be either sentenced to 50+ years, life in prison or DEATH for their crimes. Depending on the circumstances. Doctors that perform these killings illegally, would also recieve the same punishment.

The adoption system would be researched and refurbished to where it would be EASIER and cheaper to adopt....for QUALIFIED parents. Tax breaks and incentives would help.

Pregnant wome who wish to give up their child would be permitted to in a very easy fashion. However, women who kill their child after birth would receive death. A clear signal would be sent.

The only way an abortion would be legal is if the womans life is in jeopardy, determined by at least 3 qualified doctors. Aborting a baby due to rape, incest or possile birth defects would n ot be acceptable.

We live in a spoiled rotten, lazy, worthless society where we dispose of anything we don't want. A disposable nation. Trash, pollution and children. The notion that MURDER is a choice or that no one should tell a person what to do with their body....is INSANE....and one of the greatest deceptions ever pulled over the world. Abortion kills a human being. PERIOD.

That human is an INNOCENT being....therefore, killing it is murder...1st degree. I believe in capital punishment and I think TOUGH and I do mean TOUGH laws would wake up some folks. In fact, I think the inner city dirtbags and other losers that abuse the system, would get a quick wake up call. Too many people use abortion as a way out.

If people are gonna have sex out of wedlock, thats not my concern or business to judge. I did it, some of you have done it and others will too. But, we need to take responsibilty and abortion is not the answer. There aren't too many people over the age of 14 that don't know about sex....

Lastly, the excuse about the 40 million other people here in the US, if they were'nt KILLED...and thats what it was, this idea is ludicrus. if we had tough laws, there would be FAR less......likely non existant. But, go to an underground chop shop? Your gonna ride the lightening if I have anything to say about it.

I will say though that if I were president, I would have an emergency vote where every American could vote their conscience on this matter. The votes would be accurately tallied and counted by a bi-partisan group and the results would determine the course of action. If indeed better than 50% of the US feel abortion should be banned, it would be. If not, then it would be left alone. The people would have the final say.....not Govt agencies or politicians with agendas. I do feel and hope it would be over-turned.

Tougher laws and punishment will equal less BS!!!! :mad: :mad:

[SacredHeart]

And what about the heart, E? How will tougher laws and punishment affect the heart of man since that is where the real issue lies. All the laws you can come up with will not change the heart and will most likely create a civil war that will tear this nation apart.

I appreciate your desire to protect the unborn, but I'm not sure this approach would be the most effective.

[Grank]

And what about the heart, E? How will tougher laws and punishment affect the heart of man since that is where the real issue lies. All the laws you can come up with will not change the heart and will most likely create a civil war that will tear this nation apart.

I appreciate your desire to protect the unborn, but I'm not sure this approach would be the most effective.
after i see "sacredheart" i just stop reading cuz i know the rest is wrong



actually, i think i agree with you on this, pam.

[Mr.Elwood]

actually, i think i agree with you on this, pam.
STEP BACK FROM ABYSS!!:eek:

I did that once many... many years ago... now look at me..

If you agree now... you could end up like me!!:eek:

[Evanescence]

And what about the heart, E? How will tougher laws and punishment affect the heart of man since that is where the real issue lies. All the laws you can come up with will not change the heart and will most likely create a civil war that will tear this nation apart.

I appreciate your desire to protect the unborn, but I'm not sure this approach would be the most effective.

You are so right. Honestly I don't know what the true answer is...

I don't really think there is anything that can stop this course in motion. Logic and love won't do it 100% and neither will tough laws.

Bottomline, the lie has been put in place nothing will likely change it till Jesus comes out of the sky.......

[cheewiee]

And what about the heart, E? How will tougher laws and punishment affect the heart of man since that is where the real issue lies. All the laws you can come up with will not change the heart and will most likely create a civil war that will tear this nation apart.

I appreciate your desire to protect the unborn, but I'm not sure this approach would be the most effective.

Laws are not going to change the heart of man... The puropse of laws are not to change the heart of man.. HOWEVER, that does not mean we do not enact laws and enforce them in order to have a 'Civilized Society'. One of the biggest crimes we have is the crime of Murder. Because it takes the life of another. Abortion is at this time just a legalized form of murder.

If we went by your logic, lets open up the prisons and let everyone free because ultimatly prison is never going to fix their real problem right?!

[ObiShawn]

If we went by your logic, lets open up the prisons and let everyone free because ultimatly prison is never going to fix their real problem right?!No, not at all. That was not her line of logic, she wasn't suggesting that we do away with laws. She didn't give any implication of doing away with laws or prisons. She was saying that the the truest solution is for a person's heart to be changed.

[SacredHeart]

You are so right. Honestly I don't know what the true answer is...

I don't really think there is anything that can stop this course in motion. Logic and love won't do it 100% and neither will tough laws.

Bottomline, the lie has been put in place nothing will likely change it till Jesus comes out of the sky.......Don't despair, E...and don't believe for even one second that Satan has won this battle. We can't give up on the hope of the transforming power of the Spirit of God that can turn the hearts of man. My only purpose in making that statement was to remind us all that as scriptures bear out, it is not the external laws that bring true change but the power of God through salvation.

And so we pray: "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!" IT IS OUR HOPE!

[SacredHeart]

No, not at all. That was not her line of logic, she wasn't suggesting that we do away with laws. She didn't give any implication of doing away with laws or prisons. She was saying that the the truest solution is for a person's heart to be changed.
Exactly.

[cheewiee]

No, not at all. That was not her line of logic, she wasn't suggesting that we do away with laws. She didn't give any implication of doing away with laws or prisons. She was saying that the the truest solution is for a person's heart to be changed.

I know what she ment... However I was trying to show how far we could take her line of reasoning...

The fact is we are in a lost and dying world, Our planet is tearing itself apart in anticipation for judgement... There are some hearts that will not change, and while seeking the ultimate spiritual solution is DEFINATLY a key in solving this problem, and I would agree that there is some practical applications for this type of approach (Such as homosexuality, fornication) Abortion is not a victomless crime.

Abortion has taken the lives of 40 MILLION Americans. This is 4 million more people than THREE TIMES the number of people the holocaust took. Think about that... Compare 12 million dead from the holocaust, something we consider to be one of the darkest sins humanity has ever been complicet in... and compare that to the 40 million lives, not killed out of hatred, but out of conveinience...

We have completly wiped out almost a generations worth of Americans for the sake of choice... Sure for some having a baby would be a burden, but even that is a very calious way to deal with a burden.... to snuff it out... We treat our animals better...

That is why Abortion to me is such a big issue. In our desire to not deal with the consequenses of our decisions, we have snuffed out a life. It is a sad.. a VERY SAD reality...... and it should be stoped...

[SacredHeart]

I know what she ment... However I was trying to show how far we could take her line of reasoning...

The fact is we are in a lost and dying world, Our planet is tearing itself apart in anticipation for judgement... There are some hearts that will not change, and while seeking the ultimate spiritual solution is DEFINATLY a key in solving this problem, and I would agree that there is some practical applications for this type of approach (Such as homosexuality, fornication) Abortion is not a victomless crime.

Abortion has taken the lives of 40 MILLION Americans. This is 4 million more people than THREE TIMES the number of people the holocaust took. Think about that... Compare 12 million dead from the holocaust, something we consider to be one of the darkest sins humanity has ever been complicet in... and compare that to the 40 million lives, not killed out of hatred, but out of conveinience...

We have completly wiped out almost a generations worth of Americans for the sake of choice... Sure for some having a baby would be a burden, but even that is a very calious way to deal with a burden.... to snuff it out... We treat our animals better...

That is why Abortion to me is such a big issue. In our desire to not deal with the consequenses of our decisions, we have snuffed out a life. It is a sad.. a VERY SAD reality...... and it should be stoped...

Cheewiee, I share your intense feelings over the issue of abortion--it is a great evil that history will judge us harshly for, although, no more than I fear God will.

I, too, want to see abortion banned; my response to E was to say that enacting such a harsh, dictatorial edict would not necessarily accomplish all that we desire. Yes, it would save many lives, and for the ones it saves, that will have been enough, but we must be far-reaching in our goals....we must approach this as wisely as we can to ensure we save as many babies as we can, for generations to come. That being said, it is only by changing hearts that this goal can be accomplished. We cannot forget that we are fighting a spiritual battle, first and foremost. Please don't interpret this to mean that I think we should sit back and do nothing but pray--I don't believe that for a minute. But go back and read E's post and then play it out to it's logical conclusion. We would have anarchy and civil unrest the likes of which this nation has never seen. In the end, it may come to that, but we must try to do all that we can to peacably bring about change--I believe that's what Christ would want us to do. To be honest, I don't like this solution, but I don't see any other way. I just can't help but wonder what this country would look like if our government was permitted to do this:

Legislation will provide monies for larger prisons and the fascilities for capital punishment....for those that carry out abortions.

In some ways this is all a moot point because we all know that the immediate and mandatory abolishment of abortion is not going to happen any time soon and so we must find other ways. I am reminded of Booker T. Washington, who, in his book "Up From Slavery" tells the story of how he was chided for settling for so little from the white community in the way of equality. He responded to this criticism by saying, "I accept the morsel of bread they offer me in anticipation of the whole loaf." (paraphrased) It is unsatisfying, I agree, but we must not reject the few crumbs we get because we want the entire loaf. We must patiently and diligently pursue the ending of abortion but we must do it first on the spiritual front and then the natural (legislation, etc...). We can't lose hope that by God's grace, this great evil will be brought to an end.

[Trillamum]

I will say though that if I were president, I would have an emergency vote where every American could vote their conscience on this matter. The votes would be accurately tallied and counted by a bi-partisan group and the results would determine the course of action. If indeed better than 50% of the US feel abortion should be banned, it would be. If not, then it would be left alone. The people would have the final say.....not Govt agencies or politicians with agendas. I do feel and hope it would be over-turned.

No. No. No. No. On most issues, I would agree with you to let the people decide, but, this is not just any issue. The government has a responsibility to protect the rights of every citizen, regardless of whether or not the majority believes that segment of society should have those rights. These are babies we're talking about, and regardless of public opinion, killing them should not be legal. If we vote on whether or not killing unborn babies should be legal now, what's next? Voting on whether or not churches should be able to evangelize their neighbourhoods? Whether or not Christians should be allowed to own Bibles? I'm sorry, but this is a policy I cannot agree with. The rest of your post though, I like, even if its implementation is more than I can even hope to see happen.

[woman4life]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case. But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?
There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael

The biggest faulty assumption you make here is that crack heads abort while non crack heads don't. Besides, the one person I knew on crack loved her kids. She might have been a mess, but she didn't throw them in the trash. She did crash and not watch them closely at least once that I know of.
A lot of states have laws now that would allow a woman to leave her baby at a medical facility no questions asked.

Actually I say you don't solve social problems by killing the victims. Besides, there are no guarantees that the "victims" are the ones being aborted anyway.

[Grank]

Booker T. Washington
ok... fight to the death. booker t washington vs george washington carver who wins and why?

[Jesuslove]

you're wrong, there is a solution. if you don't want the kid, then keep your pants up!
yeah, and how are you going to legislate that? how about if the baby daddy is in prison, then what?

[Jesuslove]

Your right Jesuslove there are a half a million kids in fostercare right now that could be adopted... Do you know why they are not? Because they are not cute little babies... They are older, they ahve been abused, physcially mentally, and sexually.

The fact is had the parents of these kids, put them up for adoption when they had them, they would have been adopted as infants..

The attitude portrayed in your post is the problem I have with most liberals... That we should forgo the moral route, to take the easy route. Well I have to tell you brother, serving Jesus isn't easy, and if you can justify the infantcide of 40 MILLION BABIES in the US Alone under the guise of not finding anyone to adopt them, You really need to go evaluate what you consider to be your morality.

You sit there and believe we should take on the burden of Illegal Immigrant Mexicans but all of a sudden it becomes to hard when it comes to the matter of a life...

Don't sit there on your computer and lecture me about being racist because I believe Illegal immigration to be a problem, while you find ways to justify the mass murder of what would amount to be an entire generation of Americans.

It is this issue, and this issue alone that really stands in the way between me and voting for certain candidates... Do I let one issue decide my vote, When it concerns the lives of FOURTY MILLION BABIES your darned skippy it does...
You, like most conservatives, don't have solutions to the problems, so instead, you choose to attack liberals. So what IS your solution. Instead of attacking me, tell me how you would solve the issue.

[cheewiee]

You, like most conservatives, don't have solutions to the problems, so instead, you choose to attack liberals. So what IS your solution. Instead of attacking me, tell me how you would solve the issue.
Very Simple, I would make abortion Illegal...

[Jesuslove]

Very Simple, I would make abortion Illegal...
and how would you support all the unwanted children? Who would pick up that tab? The Christian community?

[cheewiee]

and how would you support all the unwanted children? Who would pick up that tab? The Christian community?

So you can justify the destruction of 40 MILLION BABIES because of a hypthetical problem that may arise?

[Mugirl04]

and how would you support all the unwanted children? Who would pick up that tab? The Christian community?
how about there parents that have the kids.

[cheewiee]

When you talk about unwanted babies are you talking about ones with cleft palets or club feet?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=3 88114&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

late terminations have been performed in recent years because the babies had club feet, official figures show.
Babies are being aborted with only minor defects.
Other babies were destroyed because they had webbed fingers or extra digits.

Figures from the Office for National Statistics show that between 1996 and 2004, 20 babies were aborted after 20 weeks because they had a club foot.

In 2004 it emerged a baby was aborted at 28 weeks after scans showed it had a cleft palate. Curate Joanna Jepson tried to ensure criminal charges were brought against the two doctors involved but the authorities last year decided against prosecution.

Its only so long after killing it's young before a nation begins to take a cavilar attitude towards all life... As we see it is beginning in Great Britan...

[Jesuslove]

how about there parents that have the kids.
Yeah, that's why there's 1/2 a million kids in the system now. That solution isn't viable.

[cheewiee]

Yeah, that's why there's 1/2 a million kids in the system now. That solution isn't viable.

So, are you justifying abortion because of without it another problem may arise?

[ObiShawn]

You, like most conservatives, don't have solutions to the problems, so instead, you choose to attack liberals. So what IS your solution. Instead of attacking me, tell me how you would solve the issue.He and I both asked you a very honest question, just because it forced you to see the hypocrocy of your ways doesn't mean it is an attack.

Why can't you answer the question?

What makes all of the unaborted babies any different than the illegals immigrants?

[cheewiee]

He and I both asked you a very honest question, just because it forced you to see the hypocrocy of your ways doesn't mean it is an attack.

Why can't you answer the question?

What makes all of the unaborted babies any different than the illegals immigrants?

At this point, I would be more satisfied with an answer to this particular question...

are you justifying abortion because of without it another problem may arise?

But after an hour and a half, something tells me Jesuslove isn't going to bring himself to answer it...

[ObiShawn]

At this point, I would be more satisfied with an answer to this particular question...

are you justifying abortion because of without it another problem may arise? But after an hour and a half, something tells me Jesuslove isn't going to bring himself to answer it...Well, time, and many many post have proven that neither Jesuslove nor Mikedevilsfan have any solutions. If they do, they never post them. All they can do is post rhetoric contrary to anything they think is conservative.

[cheewiee]

Well, time, and many many post have proven that neither Jesuslove nor Mikedevilsfan have any solutions. If they do, they never post them. All they can do is post rhetoric contrary to anything they think is conservative.

I think that because ultimatly either a yes or no answer to my question damages his credibiblity.

First, if he answers Yes, he does belive that the problem of unwanted children justifies their death, will cause any and all other arguments he makes to fall on deaf ears on this forum..

Second if he answeres no, then he is going to have to justify supporting a political ideology that supports the death of over a million babies each and every year, a large percentage of those dead because the mother viewed abortion as a viable 'birth control' alternative...

[Grank]

and how would you support all the unwanted children? Who would pick up that tab? The Christian community?
asks the man who's for an open border... ahhhh... this indeed makes me giddy and go tee hee

[Mugirl04]

Yeah, that's why there's 1/2 a million kids in the system now. That solution isn't viable.
Maybe if they can't abort they will think twice about there descions

[woman4life]

Yeah, that's why there's 1/2 a million kids in the system now. That solution isn't viable.

Here is one of the main problems with the argument about who will care for the kids.

The kids in the system have parents who DID NOT abort their children. We've had "choice" for 30 years now... they had the option. It did not solve the problem. Also, the system is broken. There are parents that could care for their kids with assistance and instead they are taken away and placed in foster care. There are kids who are taken from parents who aren't really abusive and kids who's parents should be prosecuted for abuse who are still have their children in the home. The system is broken. Someone proposed that if a child is being abused we should take the abusing parent out of the home, not the child. Obviously, that still leaves a problem if it is BOTH parents.

The fact is, however, that there are people waiting to adopt. Babies are not unwanted... older children with problems are not something everyone can handle with a good result, so those children are harder to care for. Abortion didn't fix that at all. So if you think killing is a solution to the social problem of children in the system the the solution is to kill those children. Now you and I would both find that a pretty abhorrent solution, wouldn't we? I don't think killing the victim is a good way to solve social problems.

--Melanie

Oh, and I have seen women have a second abortion before the first baby would have been born, which is another factor; and a lot of women who do just fine taking care of their children almost aborted. This isn't uncommon at all.

[kiwisongbird]

I used to nanny for a woman - took care of her one year old daughter. She had a teen ager as well... her and her husband were very wealthy... she got pregnant - went for 'counselling' (which in NZ means you go and tell the dr that if you have the baby it will affect your mental health) then she had an abortion... they could afford a nanny!!!???? :eek: :eek:

I've never protested against abortion near a clinic or joined in with marches etc because I have never been in a position to take a pregnant woman or girl into my home and offer to keep her child for her... I seriously think that to join in with protests, that is what you need to be prepared to do. :)

There are stacks of orphanages here, also a high abortion rate. Guess who runs the orphanages?? Chrisitians mostly! In the west, however, I would imagine the ramifications of running an orphanage would be huge - the regulations and requirements would cripple people - so they don't do it!! Sad eh? :(

[SacredHeart]

asks the man who's for an open border... ahhhh... this indeed makes me giddy and go tee hee
Yes, the irony is stunning.

[cheewiee]

Originally Posted by Jesuslove
Yeah, that's why there's 1/2 a million kids in the system now. That solution isn't viable.
So, are you justifying abortion because of without it another problem may arise?

Almost 24 hours and I have yet to see you answer this question Jesuslove.

[Evanescence]

Yes, JesusLove, I think they have a point...

You feel we should have full, wide open borders, but should allow or justify abortion due to overpopulation?

This mentality doesn't make much sense buddy. Perhaps you have another reason why you feel this way?

The murder of the innocent shouldn't be for population control. That mentality is genocide.

[Evanescence]

Kiwisongbird, here is another story.

My mother is from Panama, a country in Central America. As a young woman, she was married to a man thatw as very well off. She lived with his family....mother and father-in-law. They had a servant who performed abortions on the side. Now, this was in the late 40's mind you. My mother wsn't one to stir up trouble so didn't say much about the womans side job.

One day my mother asked the woman how she was...."What's new today," type thing. The woman said she was a little bit upset because she was pretty sure her 15 year old daughter was pregnant to the neighbor boy. They didn't talk much about it and my mother gave her sympathies.

A few weeks or months later, my mother asked about the daughter, never imagining what response she would get. "Oh, I took care of it. It's done," was the response.

She killed her own grandchild, her daughters baby. My mother wept the rest of the day and became seriously convicted of this horrible thing....abortion. This woman and her aborting ways are beyond my comprehension. What a sick and evil thing to do.

[jwil59]

and how would you support all the unwanted children? Who would pick up that tab? The Christian community?


Who takes care of the homeless? Who takes care of the elderly who have to be admitted to state-run nursing homes or mental institutions if they have no family?

Would you advocate killing these people too or is it just the unborn?

[Grank]

Yes, the irony is stunning.
but wait... wouldn't the next step in this logic be to kill any immigrant that we thought was overpopulating our country? hmmm... i'm intrigued.

[ObiShawn]

but wait... wouldn't the next step in this logic be to kill any immigrant that we thought was overpopulating our country? hmmm... i'm intrigued.I know! Me too! But wait, as jwil59 has pointed out, we get to kill the elderly, the homeless, and mentally ill as well! :D

While we're at it, let's throw in the welfare people too. And we cant' exclude all of those mothers that are on WIC.

[Jason]

I know! Me too! But wait, as jwil59 has pointed out, we get to kill the elderly, the homeless, and mentally ill as well! :D

While we're at it, let's throw in the welfare people too. And we cant' exclude all of those mothers that are on WIC.

Can we kill the physically disabled too? :p

[jwil59]

I know! Me too! But wait, as jwil59 has pointed out, we get to kill the elderly, the homeless, and mentally ill as well! :D

While we're at it, let's throw in the welfare people too. And we cant' exclude all of those mothers that are on WIC.

Yeah we could have a killfest. Maybe make it a holiday. Anyone who does not fit into our perception of productive, whack em'. This guy's mother don't take care of him, BAM, bullet in the temple.

The abortionists have been spouting this same argument for years. I ain't buyin' it.

The 2000 some odd dead in Iraq is murder, but it is ok to off a fetus cause his parents are too small to live up to their responsibilities. Ain't the babies' fault.

[ObiShawn]

Can we kill the physically disabled too? :pSure we can, but don't take it personally. I mean, who is supposed to take care of you? The governemnt? The church? We'll just add the physically disabled to the list of people that are a burden to the system! Wow, we're gonna have a big ol time!!



We're all joking around, being sarcastic and stuff, but seriously, Jesuslove, do you not see the flaw in the logic?

[Jason]

Sure we can, but don't take it personally. I mean, who is supposed to take care of you? The governemnt? The church? We'll just add the physically disabled to the list of people that are a burden to the system! Wow, we're gonna have a big ol time!!


Let's see ... killin' all those that aren't perfect and a burden on the system ... I have a great name for our new philosophy ... the Fourth Reich.

[cheewiee]

Yeah, that's why there's 1/2 a million kids in the system now. That solution isn't viable.

So, are you justifying abortion because of without it another problem may arise?
Almost 24 hours and I have yet to see you answer this question Jesuslove.
48 Hours... still the silence is stunning...

[Jesuslove]

The fact is, however, that there are people waiting to adopt. Babies are not unwanted... older children with problems are not something everyone can handle with a good result, so those children are harder to care for. Abortion didn't fix that at all. So if you think killing is a solution to the social problem of children in the system the the solution is to kill those children. Now you and I would both find that a pretty abhorrent solution, wouldn't we? I don't think killing the victim is a good way to solve social problems.
--Melanie

Melanie, nowhere did I say killing children was a solution to any problem. However, the Christian right doesn't have an answer to what would happen if over 1 million unwanted kids were added to our population each year. You say that there are enough parents to take these children. Where? Were you aware that AA children are being adopted out of America to England, Germany and Canada?

I had this discussion a few years ago. I challenged Christian families to take a non-white child and raise him or her. I got a lot of angry feedback from those on this list. Several southerners (and I'm not picking on southern Christians) said they wouldn't be accepted in their communities and/or churches if they adopted an AA or non-white looking Hispanic child. So there aren't a lot of families out there to adopt any child. Most white couples want to adopt a white child.

[Jesuslove]

Who takes care of the homeless? Who takes care of the elderly who have to be admitted to state-run nursing homes or mental institutions if they have no family?

Would you advocate killing these people too or is it just the unborn?
I didn't advocate killing anyone. I'm looking for a solution to the situation that would result if abortion were banned.

[Gandalf]

Were you aware that AA children are being adopted out of America to England, Germany and Canada?
Are these the children of people in AA, or kids with fetal alcohol syndrome, or...? I doubt there are many alcoholic children up for adoption, and I've never heard of a kid being a member of AA. What are you talking about?

[ObiShawn]

I didn't advocate killing anyone. I'm looking for a solution to the situation that would result if abortion were banned.Then what solution do you propose? I ask because things you've said have hinted that you believe the abortions have been a good thing.

What are you talking about?AA = African American. I didn't realize that saying "AA" was the new politically correct way to refer to African Americans. :rolleyes:

[HotWireD]

Let's see ... killin' all those that aren't perfect and a burden on the system ... I have a great name for our new philosophy ... the Fourth Reich.

I agree.

At the beginning of the last century, a new science became very popular - Eugenics.

In the USA and Germany it became very popular. It had quite a following in England too, the followers there did not have any political clout.

In the USA it led to the brith control and abortion movement, in Germany it was used by the National Socialists to legitimise their elimination of 'undesirables' mentally and physically disabled persons. The system they developed helped the fascists when they wanted to design the concentration camps used later...

In the USA the movement were involved in the forced sterilisation of persons from the lower classes - at the same time arguing that the 'better' classes aught to have more children.

[Jesuslove]

48 Hours... still the silence is stunning...
I never said I supported abortion, YET I still haven't got one response from one Christian on this board as to how they would handle the overwhelming population increase of unwanted children.

PS. I wasn't ignoring you. I didn't see your post. I don't read everything. I don't have that much free time.

[Gandalf]

I never said I supported abortion, YET I still haven't got one response from one Christian on this board as to how they would handle the overwhelming population increase of unwanted children.
You're asking people to solve a hypothetical problem that doesn't exist. It's moot.

First, many of the children wouldn't actually be "unwanted" once they were born - the women who kill their children would in most cases keep them and take care of them if they were actually born; they are just emotionally overwhelmed and make a very poor choice to prevent it. It's not a valid assumption that all of the children who would otherwise be aborted would end up without family to raise them. Some would, but not most. As for those, we'd deal with the issue as it arose, just as is the case with all societal issues.

[Jesuslove]

You're asking people to solve a hypothetical problem that doesn't exist. It's moot.

It isn't moot. We can't care for kids in the system now. How would we handle 1,000,000 more kids a year if abortion was legalized? We don't have a plan.

First, many of the children wouldn't actually be "unwanted" once they were born - the women who kill their children would in most cases keep them and take care of them if they were actually born; they are just emotionally overwhelmed and make a very poor choice to prevent it. It's not a valid assumption that all of the children who would otherwise be aborted would end up without family to raise them. Some would, but not most. As for those, we'd deal with the issue as it arose, just as is the case with all societal issues.
It is a valid assumption. Who would want these kids? Our system is overwhelmed with orphans as it is. Believe me, as an adoptive parent, I advocate adoption to many people, but realistically, we can't handle the kids in the system now. We export children to Canada and Europe. What does that tell you?

[cheewiee]

I never said I supported abortion, YET I still haven't got one response from one Christian on this board as to how they would handle the overwhelming population increase of unwanted children.

PS. I wasn't ignoring you. I didn't see your post. I don't read everything. I don't have that much free time.

Well you really didn't answer the question, I didn't accuse you of supporting abortion, I asked you if you were justifiying abortion...

Lets look at some telling statistics shall we....

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

In the US
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700
Chilling that in America we have become so much more efficient in killing than the Third Reich..

Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

So 20% (that's 1/5) of all abortions are given to women 16-19 (That's a 3 year span).
1/3rd of all abortions go to women between ages 20-24...

So if we really want to decrease Unwanted pregnancies I would say this is the target demographic...

To me this statistic seems the most difficult to grasp, You ask who would provide for the child...

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

The simple majority of those having abortions have family incomes of 30,000-50,000 per year.

Another Chilling Statistic
Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons

So 93 Percent of all abortions are occuring as a means of Birth Control...

And apparently half of those won't learn from their mistake the first time...

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

If the repeaters just got a clue and figured out what caused the pregnancy to begin with, that would eliminate HALF of the abortions right there...

The fact is our society tries to eliminate consequenses. We want everything for the cheapest possible price. Abortion is simply a way society has decided to use to eliminate their mistakes. The sad part is, that it means eliminating a possible life.

Again, I am not going to pretend that there will still be unwanted pregnancies, however there are millions of couples out there willing to adopt babies...

[Jesuslove]

Again, I am not going to pretend that there will still be unwanted pregnancies, however there are millions of couples out there willing to adopt babies...
Millions of couples? There are 1/2 a million kids in the system now waiting to be adopted. THERE IS NO WAY that is true! Also, if kids are so wanted in America, why are they being exported to Europe and Canada?

[ObiShawn]

I'm looking for a solution to the situation that would result if abortion were banned.You are teh one challenging the system, what solution do you propose?

[middletree]

I never said I supported abortion, YET I still haven't got one response from one Christian on this board as to how they would handle the overwhelming population increase of unwanted children.


I can't speak for everyone, but I haven't answered your question because I don't think it's a valid question. I did at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I realize how wrong it is. It's a strawman at best, and at worst, it's abhorrent to even try to compare the suffering that these kids might (repeat might) suffer if they were born with the horror of sucking their little unborn bodies out of the womb.

I don't understand why you haven't addressed this, and why you haven't acknowledged that there can be no reason--ever--to allow this practice, and I don't understand how you can come across as more concerned about the life of some Venezualan dictator than innocent babies.

[Jesuslove]

I don't understand why you haven't addressed this, and why you haven't acknowledged that there can be no reason--ever--to allow this practice, and I don't understand how you can come across as more concerned about the life of some Venezualan dictator than innocent babies.
Look, I'm not pro-abortion. I have an adopted son, and I've adopted him as a single parent - a single man. But I'm realistic. We can't take care of these children. We don't have Christians stepping forward to adopt them. More and more, non-traditional families are taking the place of Christian families as there are not enough people willing to adopt. So add 1 million unwanted children into the mix each year. Where would these children go?

[Gandalf]

It isn't moot. We can't care for kids in the system now. How would we handle 1,000,000 more kids a year if abortion was legalized? We don't have a plan.
It is, by definition moot, since it's a purely academic discussion about a problem that doesn't practically exist. And we don't need a plan; it's not our children - the parents of a large percentage of these children would keep them, or their families would. The remainder would probably be put up for adoption.
We export children to Canada and Europe. What does that tell you?
You keep repeating this claim, but I doubt it's true in a net sense. I don't doubt that there are some Canadians and Europeans who adopt American born children, but I'd be willing to bet there are far more Americans who adopt foreign born children.

Either way, there are a lot of parents waiting to adopt, and a lot of children waiting to be adopted. This has always been true, and always will be true.

The question of "what to do with the children" assumes that somehow the children are all going to be wards of the state, and that no adult relatives are responsible for their care. It's simply not the case. And even if it were, it's not as if the instant abortion was made illegal there would be millions of children suddenly appearing on the streets.

[ObiShawn]

We can't care for kids in the system now. How would we handle 1,000,000 more kids a year if abortion was legalized? We don't have a plan.Again, I ask you, what plan do you suggest?

And the irony just kills me of how you are all for open borders, allowing all of the illgeal immigrants to remain, yet you have a problem with American born babies, if they were allowed to live, that is.

[Jesuslove]

It is, by definition moot, since it's a purely academic discussion about a problem that doesn't practically exist. And we don't need a plan; it's not our children - the parents of a large percentage of these children would keep them, or their families would. The remainder would probably be put up for adoption.

You keep repeating this claim, but I doubt it's true in a net sense. I don't doubt that there are some Canadians and Europeans who adopt American born children, but I'd be willing to bet there are far more Americans who adopt foreign born children.

Either way, there are a lot of parents waiting to adopt, and a lot of children waiting to be adopted. This has always been true, and always will be true.

The question of "what to do with the children" assumes that somehow the children are all going to be wards of the state, and that no adult relatives are responsible for their care. It's simply not the case. And even if it were, it's not as if the instant abortion was made illegal there would be millions of children suddenly appearing on the streets.
Look, if the families wanted the children, they wouldn't be aborting them in the first place. Banning abortion isn't going to make a birthparent want a child more. That's illogical. Yes more children are being adopted into America then out of America. In my opinion, there should be no need to adopt any children OUT of America if there are the millions of Christian families waiting to adopt that you guys claim.

[mikedevilsfan]

If abortion was illegal on a federal level, this would be the worst administration for that to happen under in regard to a welfare system for the children.

I agree that most abortions are done for social reasons, but if it were banned, would there be a much higher abuse rate? Would crack-heads be throwing babies away at a higher rate? If this is true is it more humane to abort a child or wait until it's 6 months old and put it in a dumpster? These are the things I think about. I am certain that there is no Republican plan to deal with the fall out this would cause. Bush would probably say open a "new baby" account and save up--which is the same as ignoring the problem.
As a Socialist I would like to see the state get heavily involved and help parents adopt, and for those who can't be adopted--should be taken care of. Seems like that war money would have been better spent on a project like that rather than killing Iraqis.
Michael

[Gandalf]

Look, if the families wanted the children, they wouldn't be aborting them in the first place. Banning abortion isn't going to make a birthparent want a child more. That's illogical. Yes more children are being adopted into America then out of America. In my opinion, there should be no need to adopt any children OUT of America if there are the millions of Christian families waiting to adopt that you guys claim.
I don't claim any particular number... I just know that there are both a lot of families and children waiting that don't end up together for whatever reason, but just because some children don't find homes doesn't mean that others can't.

I don't claim that banning abortion will make parents want their children more, but there is a natural tie between parent and child such that even if the parent didn't want to have the baby, in many cases they'll keep it and take care of it. It's a natural, instinctual, ingrained part of human nature. It's illogical to ignore it and assume that just because a parent doesn't want to plan to have a child, that if the child is born they'll abandon it.

[1inamillion]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case. But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?
There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael
if we banned abortion millions maybe even billions of babies would live.....adoption helps too

[cheewiee]

Millions of couples? There are 1/2 a million kids in the system now waiting to be adopted. THERE IS NO WAY that is true! Also, if kids are so wanted in America, why are they being exported to Europe and Canada?

Where did those half a million kids "in the system" come from?

They are not newborns who were rejected by their parents. They are abused, neglected, abandoned, children with problems and issues that many people cannot bring themselves to have to deal with. 78% of all children in child services in the state of Florida have been sexually abused (Statistic from DCF).

Also you mentioned you adopted... How come you Adopted a child from ouside of our nation when there are a half a million american kids in the system right now?

You don't have to answer that, I just wanted you to know what it felt like to have your motives questioned...

[cheewiee]

Your still justifying abortion... Your justifiying the Murder of a baby, because it *MIGHT* be neglected...

I just thought you might like to understand the case you are making...

[HotWireD]

One of the stats above mentioned that 93% of abortions are as a form of birth control. This makes me sad - people would rather risk pregnancy and then kill the child rather than abstain, or use contraception. I suppose contraception is too much bother.

Maybe, if this method of birth control (abortion) was not available, less babies would be born due to the use of other birth control methods filling the gap (ones that prevent conception in the first place), also, maybe, more people would more careful about having sexual relations when they are not ready to look after any consequence (child).

As one of the earlier comments states, we appear to be more effective at getting rid of human beings than the Third Reich. Maybe in years to come, to our shame, we will have museums to the unborn dead just like we now have the Holocaust museums all over the world.

Makes you feel good inside knowing that we may be remembered in history as the baby killing generation.:confused:

[cheewiee]

One of the stats above mentioned that 93% of abortions are as a form of birth control. This makes me sad - people would rather risk pregnancy and then kill the child rather than abstain, or use contraception. I suppose contraception is too much bother.

Maybe, if this method of birth control (abortion) was not available, less babies would be born due to the use of other birth control methods filling the gap (ones that prevent conception in the first place), also, maybe, more people would more careful about having sexual relations when they are not ready to look after any consequence (child).

As one of the earlier comments states, we appear to be more effective at getting rid of human beings than the Third Reich. Maybe in years to come, to our shame, we will have museums to the unborn dead just like we now have the Holocaust museums all over the world.

Makes you feel good inside knowing that we may be remembered in history as the baby killing generation.:confused:

Exactly, we would rather as a culture kill life than deal with the possible consequenses of our actions...

And some seem content in justifying it...

[HotWireD]

Another thought....

If a young girl knew she could not have an abortion, she would know that she would not be able to hide the pregnancy from her family, friends and community. She would know that she would have to take the baby to full term, which would possibly - G_d Forbid, effect her looks and figure, her chances of a relationship with a good man. She would have more pressure on her to state who the father was (lets not forget two people have to be involved, one who can hide quite easily from the shame and pressure..).

The law could make the father pay/contribute for the upbringing of the child - why should he be able to get away scot free?

Identifying the father via DNA profiling would make sure that there was a legal basic for his culpability. The father's family would have to accept that their son is responsible (there may be community pressure that could be brought to bear - I have known 'important' families to bring pressure on the pregnant girl's family to get her to have an abortion so they do not have to be shamed in their community).

I think that if abortion was not an option, there would not necessarily be the same number of children being born as are presently aborted. Many other environmental and social factors would come into play that would reduce this figure enormously.

[musicjaytee]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case. But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?
There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael
To respond on the last sentance, I am actually (politically) against it in all cases because of the logistics. It's hard enough to prove rape in itself in the courts, so how can it be truly proved in this case?

I am also mixed on my opinion in general. I don't feel that there is any time when abortion is morally acceptable beyond when the child or the mother's life is in physical danger (when the course of labor turns in a way that birthing the child may cause the death of both the mother and child, at least save the mother). At the same time, I sympathize with someone who was truly raped, and with the child that may have to grow up mentally hadicapped due to incest. It's hard to say 'put the kid up for adoption' as well, since there are so many problems within the adoption program and not enough people to adopt.

With the current society, there isn't enough integrity to create a policy that would properly adress abortion. Banning all abortions does not fix the problem, and neither does allowing all (or even having some exceptions). Because we 'seem' to have a forced option, I am politically all-against abortion. I just feel that giving every child a chance (even if it is slim in some cases) is better than giving the mom (who in some cases is a nympho) a choice. Not perfect, just better. IMO

Side-note: Mike - outside of the quick slam to republicans about hypocrisy, this was a very well-worded question, and you approached the topic very well. I thank you for that.

[Jesuslove]

They are not newborns who were rejected by their parents....
Some are.. there is an infant down the street that was given up at birth.

They are abused, neglected, abandoned, children with problems and issues that many people cannot bring themselves to have to deal with. 78% of all children in child services in the state of Florida have been sexually abused (Statistic from DCF). ...
Were they abused by the birthparents or while in the system?

Also you mentioned you adopted... How come you Adopted a child from ouside of our nation when there are a half a million american kids in the system right now. You don't have to answer that, I just wanted you to know what it felt like to have your motives questioned...?...
No, I will answer. I don't care if you question my motives, but you must not like someone questioning your motives.

I adopted outside America for two reasons. I had a coworker that had a positive experience dealing with a particular agency that worked exclusively with Romania. I followed in his family's footsteps. Second, as a single parent, it is easier to adopt abroad; there are less hurdles.

My journey (as a non-traditional family - meaning as a single Dad adopting) which lasted 4 years was chronicled on the Hallmark Channel's show "Adoption" in 2004. Prior to being successful, I had two failed adoptions. I eventually adopted successfully from Guatemala. My son is Hispanic. If I adopt again, I will adopt an American child; most likely an AA child.

[musicjaytee]

I think this is the first time I've leaned more towards Jesuslove and Mike's opinion. Not fully agree with, but leaning towards ;) .

There is a problem with the adoption system, and there is a definite shortage in people willing to adopt, especially when the children get older. You guys cannot deny that there are more unwanted children in the system than seeking parents. If that problem didn't exist, there wouldn't be so many children in the system, so many commercials showing kids who are waiting to be adopted. It is a problem, and it cannot be denied.

Does that mean abortion is justified? No. But it is a problem that also must be adressed along with abortion. Yes, banning all abortions would probably reduce the number of children being born, and yes, it would 'force' some parents to accept the consequences and take care of their children. I wouldn't go so far as to say 'most' parents would raise the kid. If someone was willing to kill the child, taking the option away would not, in most cases, cause them to magically want and TAKE CARE of that child. bringing a child into an abusive enironment is not justification for abortion, but it is a reason to pause and re-evaluate what we call a solution.

Banning all forms of abortion is not a solution. I support it because it is currently what I feel to be the best temporary fix on the table. Banning abortions as a whole also does not prevent them from happening. Drugs, drunk driving, gay marriage, sex with minors, underage everything...it's all illegal and it all still happens. It will only prevent some of them from happening. We as Christians do need to consider how to solve the problem as a whole. Abortion is wrong, no question about it. It needs to be banned. We cannot ignore the problems in our solutions tho.

Banning abortion is only a small step. We have to adress pre-marital sex and generally careless sex practices as strongly as we adress abortion. The way to prevent abortion is not forcing the child on the parents or taking care of them through adoption, it is teaching our children that if they don't want a child they need to abstain.

[middletree]

Look, I'm not pro-abortion. I have an adopted son, and I've adopted him as a single parent - a single man. But I'm realistic. We can't take care of these children. We don't have Christians stepping forward to adopt them. More and more, non-traditional families are taking the place of Christian families as there are not enough people willing to adopt. So add 1 million unwanted children into the mix each year. Where would these children go?
Wherever they go, it's a lot better than what's happening to them right now. No comparison.

[middletree]

but if it were banned, would there be a much higher abuse rate?

By definition, no, because abortion is the most horrific form of abuse a person can go through.
Under the current plan, 100% of aborted babies are abused to the point of murder.

[jwil59]

Banning abortion is only a small step. We have to adress pre-marital sex and generally careless sex practices as strongly as we adress abortion. The way to prevent abortion is not forcing the child on the parents or taking care of them through adoption, it is teaching our children that if they don't want a child they need to abstain.


I agree abstinance is the answer. But our borderline socialist society that Mike is so fond of will not allow education in that area. Government intervention isn't the answer and I can promise you I don't have the answer either but I will say this:

I don't think it is up to us to solve the problems created by banning abortion, assuming there are problems from banning this barbarianism. Let's just do God's will and turn it over to Him. I don't think God's heart is hard to find when it comes to this issue.

[jwil59]

I'm curious about all of your thoughts on this issue. For sure it's a wedge issue that no administration will ever touch, but it gets votes for Republicans.

While I am Pro-life in 99% of all circumstances I do think we should discuss the issue. Obviously partial birth abortion is an easy one- ban it in every case. But what would happen if abortion was illegal in every case? Who would take care of the babies? Would we have crack heads throwing their babies in the trash?
There never seems to be any meaninful dialog about this. Republicans say "I am against it" and move on to other forms of killing. Democrats (in most cases) want to keep it legal because of the logistics.
What say you?
Michael

Are you niave? Logistics? The Democrats support it for the votes buddy. Geez

[musicjaytee]

I don't think it is up to us to solve the problems created by banning abortion, assuming there are problems from banning this barbarianism. Let's just do God's will and turn it over to Him. I don't think God's heart is hard to find when it comes to this issue.
True, we do need to turn it over to His will. But it also isn't hard to find His heart on adoption either. We're supposed to look after orphans and widows in their distress. As Christians, it is always our duty to reach out to those in need. Yes, abortion needs to be stopped. But we can't just give these kids life and let them fend for themselves. It's barbaric to leave a kid alone.

Many people cannot afford to adopt. Maybe the church can help respond to the problem like they do prisons. Get a group of people together to volunteer at an orphanage for a few hours, help take care of the kids, share the Word with them, show them real love. But making a law against abortion and then moving on to another issue is certainly not God's will.

Okay God, we're gonna fight our big crusade and make laws so that everyone will be forced to obey your commands. You can take care of the result, we have bigger and better victories left to win. Thanks for the help. Oh, and keep a special eye on the crack kid, he's gonna need it.

Leaving something in God's hand doesn't always mean ignoring it.

[cheewiee]

Ok... Lets look at this for just a moment...

The latest stats put about 1 Million abortions occuring in this nation per year...

47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

So 470,000 of those one million abortions are repeaters.... so if just HALF of those folks got a clue what leads to pregnancy's and how to prevent them, that would mean we have eliminated the need for 1/4 of all abortions that occur in this nation...

Also, I would agree that we as believers need to be realistic... Sinners sin.. ::GASP:: And outside of biblical reasons and Godly morality, things that our world is increasingly coming to reject, there is very little reason for people to not have sex outside of wedlock... We as the church need to realize that. We cannot stop people from having sex out of wedlock... so we need to get a grip of our opposition to birth control. I am all for promoting abstinence, I am all for promoting abstinence as the guaranteed way to avoid pregnancies and STD's, however I would not be opposed with teaching the mechanics of how birth control work. This does not mean showing 12 year old how to put condoms on banannas, but just giving a scientific textbook description of the various forms of Birth Control and how they work biologically.

I know that there will be an increase of children if we eliminate abortion, however I would rather deal with that, then the stain of blood on the hands of our culture because we prefer the easy way out....

[musicjaytee]

Are you niave? Logistics? The Democrats support it for the votes buddy. Geez
Republicans do it for the same reasons. Oh wait, are we talking about politicians or voters? Mike, how'd you mean it?

Mike really does have a point. Banning all forms of abortion will cause problems, and we can't just sit back and ignore it, or leave it up to God to fix. If we are going to 'save' these kids from abortion, we also need to protect them from the world, or at least try. What good is it to bring a child into a world where they are lead away from God's love? Still not a justification for abortion.

If we are against abortion because it is against the Bible, then we MUST also be for taking care of these children and bringing them into a life of love, for that is the probably the strongest message of the Bible. If you say that the results of banning abortion are not up to us to fix, or that it's not our problem, then you are missing something. We are not supposed to judge and condemn. Yes, we can judge right and wrong, and yes we are justified in fighting abortion. But if we don't then show the children that they do have a purpose, and a greater family than the one that wanted them dead, we are showing neither forgivness nor love, and the same measure will be taken on us. If we are going to save these kids, we need to save their lives, not just keep them from being killed.

Obviously I don't mean that WE will be saving them, so don't make that sound self-righteous. Putting it into God's hands means allowing not only the situation, but also ourselves to be 'taken over' by His command. If we are going to be active in one part, we must be active in all.

This is why I don't vote in elections. Neither side is willing to actually solve anything. They just want their own morals to rule.

[cheewiee]

Republicans do it for the same reasons. Oh wait, are we talking about politicians or voters? Mike, how'd you mean it?

Mike really does have a point. Banning all forms of abortion will cause problems, and we can't just sit back and ignore it, or leave it up to God to fix. If we are going to 'save' these kids from abortion, we also need to protect them from the world, or at least try. What good is it to bring a child into a world where they are lead away from God's love? Still not a justification for abortion.


I agree, that banning abortion will cause new opportunities, however Mike and Jesuslove are justifying abortion because of these "problems". It is the easy/lazy way out...

[musicjaytee]

I know that there will be an increase of children if we eliminate abortion, however I would rather deal with that, then the stain of blood on the hands of our culture because we prefer the easy way out....
I could be wrong, but I don't think that anyone has said that they are all for abortion. In fact, I think most everyone has said that they are against it completely. I would much rathre deal with more unwanted children as well. However, this discussion has had a lot of statements that seem to say that many of the posters aren't willing to DEAL with the situation, just accept it.

As Christians, we do need to look at what could happen if this bill passes, and we need to follow the rest of the call. I know there are some in place already, but we need to consider more crisis centers and lines, helping scared teenagers prepare to care for a child, showing them God's love, and as a result, giving them not only the knowledge, but the strength to choose to care for the child. If the parents refuse to and put the child up for adoption, we need to be involved in the system, reaching out to these children, even if we can't adopt them ourselves. We need to do all this even if the bill never passes.

Abortion is immoral, but laws don't solve the problem. They slow it down, yes, but they have never solved any problem. Yes, stay active in the polls if you can, fight abortion on the government level. But for goodness sake, don't leave fighting it on the human level up to God. Yes, I know he is fully capable of it, but he called us to help. He called us to be the tangible evidence of His existance, giving up His own Son, Himself, to us. We must reach out to people as Christ reached out to us.

[cheewiee]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that anyone has said that they are all for abortion. In fact, I think most everyone has said that they are against it completely.

Actually you are wrong... In another thread, I don't remember which at the moment.... Jesuslove said he was on the fence..

[ObiShawn]

Actually you are wrong... In another thread, I don't remember which at the moment.... Jesuslove said he was on the fence..


I am on the fence. I am definitely pro-life, however I feel we as Christians don't do our fair share to take care of kids in the system and unless we have a plan to deal with unwanted children, then why force women to have kids that won't be loved, nurtured, properly cared for.

Post 67 - http://www.thirdday.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1442106&postcount=67

[Evanescence]

How convenient, he pooped, then ran....

Come out, come out wherever you are..... :D :D :D

[cheewiee]

Post 67 - http://www.thirdday.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1442106&postcount=67
Thanks...

I knew it was out there...

[musicjaytee]

But he was talking politically being on the fence. He said he is definitely pro-life. Right now, with the current system, banning abortion will not solve anything, and that is why he is on the fence. He is saying that abortion is wrong, but he still has a heart for the kids AFTER they are born. While it is always better than being killed, he still has reservations about putting more children into a (poentially) abusive environment. He never said ABORTION was okay or justified, just that we are not prepared to ban it, especially if we're supposedly doing for the sake of the children who will be abandoned anyways. That's all his point is. Not that we shouldn't ban abortion, just that we shouldn't ban it WITHOUT preparing to HANDLE the children.

[cheewiee]

But he was talking politically being on the fence. He said he is definitely pro-life. Right now, with the current system, banning abortion will not solve anything, and that is why he is on the fence. He is saying that abortion is wrong, but he still has a heart for the kids AFTER they are born. While it is always better than being killed, he still has reservations about putting more children into a (poentially) abusive environment. He never said ABORTION was okay or justified, just that we are not prepared to ban it, especially if we're supposedly doing for the sake of the children who will be abandoned anyways. That's all his point is. Not that we shouldn't ban abortion, just that we shouldn't ban it WITHOUT preparing to HANDLE the children.

I asked him if he was for or against legalized abortion...

The fact is in defending Abortion, because of any hypothetical problems that arise is justifying it... It doesn't matter if he doesn't like that he is justifying it... When you Say, I prefer A over B you stop being against A and begin to justify it.

[musicjaytee]

Yes, but no one has actually adressed the issue in question outside of saying it doesn't exist. The question wasn't about being for or against abortion. It was about the results of banning abortion. The fact is, Christians have taken a negative attitude towards the adoption system, choosing to ignore the unwanted children of this country by either saying "at least they're alive" or "it's in God's hands/God's will" and THAT is the easy way out.

Pro-life is not limited to the political stance against abortion. It is pro-life as a whole. Banning abortion without helping the children to grow in the love of God is a self-righteous crusade. You say it is against the will of God for a child to die, and that is true. But it is also against the will of God for anyone to fall away from him, and being brought into a potentially abusive environment, or a state funded institution where God is not allowed to be taught, will lead that child down darker paths and away from God.

I will also make my statement once more. Just because something is banned doesn't mean that it won't happen. Banning it will only make it a crime, and put some of the unborn children into even more horrific situations. What will prevent abortions is people who love and support those who are scared or simply don't want the burden of a child.

Ask yourself how many people you know who smoke weed, and see how well those laws have done. What's the difference between the people who smoke weed and the people who don't? Friends, family and church. THAT is where we prevent abortion and save lives. Not laws.

[cheewiee]

. The fact is, Christians have taken a negative attitude towards the adoption system, choosing to ignore the unwanted children of this country by either saying "at least they're alive" or "it's in God's hands/God's will" and THAT is the easy way out.

Can you show me one instance where a christian has shown that attitude...

I will also make my statement once more. Just because something is banned doesn't mean that it won't happen. Banning it will only make it a crime, and put some of the unborn children into even more horrific situations. What will prevent abortions is people who love and support those who are scared or simply don't want the burden of a child.

Ask yourself how many people you know who smoke weed, and see how well those laws have done. What's the difference between the people who smoke weed and the people who don't? Friends, family and church. THAT is where we prevent abortion and save lives. Not laws.

Well then using that flawed logic we should toss our laws that forbid murder because well they are there and we see how those laws have done....:rolleyes:

We establish Laws to protect society and people... Weed laws arguibly do neither... It is a victomless crime. Again I find it telling that you use "its just going to happen anyway" as an excuse to prevent the MURDER of innocent children from happening.....

[musicjaytee]

And you still haven't adressed the problem that already exists and will increase if it's passed. What Christian takes that attitude of "it's not my problem"? How many churches do you know of that volunteer at orphanages? Have you done anything to help these kids feel loved? I sure haven't, and I'm just one of many to most Christians who haven't done a darn thing for these kids.

ONCE MORE: I AM AGAINST ABORTION, AS IS JESUSLOVE. If you read the post quoted BEYOND 'I'm on the fence', you'd realize that the morality of abortion is no matter to argue here since we all agree. Jesuslove said UNLESS WE HAVE A PLAN TO CARE FOR THESE KIDS, why force women to have children who WILL GO UNLOVED. To translate, I am against abortion, it is wrong, but so is leaving a child without love and care.

Laws can only punish. Laws against murder only punish those who do. I said many times to go to the polls and fight for an abortion ban, in some way or another. But apparantly, you missed that. I also said that banning abortion is not the solution, IT'S ONLY A PART. And by itself, it is no solution at all.

We as Christians NEED to plan what the government won't, and reach out to the kids, even the ones already in the system. There is no way around it, except apparantly denial.

[musicjaytee]

Well then using that flawed logic we should toss our laws that forbid murder because well they are there and we see how those laws have done....:rolleyes:

Well, Christians have been tossing out the "love your neighbor and help the poor" command, so why not?

[Gandalf]

So, you think we should keep it legal for a woman to kill her child simply because that child might encounter unpleasant circumstances in life?

The "problem" of too many children is one that cannot be solved in advance.

[cheewiee]

And you still haven't adressed the problem that already exists and will increase if it's passed. What Christian takes that attitude of "it's not my problem"? How many churches do you know of that volunteer at orphanages? Have you done anything to help these kids feel loved? I sure haven't, and I'm just one of many to most Christians who haven't done a darn thing for these kids.

First we don't have orphanages in the US... second the kids in The System, are special needs kids who like all kids need love and attention, however right now there are over one million couples in this nation who want to adopt a baby... Why don't they adopt these kids who are in the system? well ask Jesuslove who adopted a child from outside of our country instead of one of them...

ONCE MORE: I AM AGAINST ABORTION, AS IS JESUSLOVE. If you read the post quoted BEYOND 'I'm on the fence', you'd realize that the morality of abortion is no matter to argue here since we all agree. Jesuslove said UNLESS WE HAVE A PLAN TO CARE FOR THESE KIDS, why force women to have children who WILL GO UNLOVED. To translate, I am against abortion, it is wrong, but so is leaving a child without love and care.

Because Murder is greater evil. I hate to say it but it is. It is taking the results of ones sinful activity and brushing under the rug by another sinful activity, one that ends the life of another human being.

Laws can only punish. Laws against murder only punish those who do. I said many times to go to the polls and fight for an abortion ban, in some way or another. But apparantly, you missed that. I also said that banning abortion is not the solution, IT'S ONLY A PART. And by itself, it is no solution at all.
I never said you didn't say that... however Abortion is murder... As long as we ban murder and leave abortion on the books, we have a hypocritical approach on life, that will lead our culture to despise the gift that is life. earlier, i am sure you missed the post, I discussed how in the UK there are those getting abortions because the baby has a club foot or a cleft palet. The cavilear attitude we have towards life is becoming exposed in this Naziesque practice. I don't care if your OK with your society to just throw away life as trash, because it isn't Perfect enough, but I Do... Abortion propigates this attitude towards life...

We as Christians NEED to plan what the government won't, and reach out to the kids, even the ones already in the system. There is no way around it, except apparantly denial.

Again, the kids in the system now, 500,000 are a result of broken homes, criminal parents, abusive parents... It is sad, and it does need to be taken care of, HOWEVER there are a MILLION infertal families in this nation RIGHT Now waiting to adopt, an Infant...

[cheewiee]

So, you think we should keep it legal for a woman to kill her child simply because that child might encounter unpleasant circumstances in life?

The "problem" of too many children is one that cannot be solved in advance.

Exactly...

On one hand we have rough life... on the other hand we have no life...

When we choose no life over rough life, we cease being pro-life...

[musicjaytee]

So, you think we should keep it legal for a woman to kill her child simply because that child might encounter unpleasant circumstances in life?
You guys are getting really irritating. ABORTION IS WRONG. However, it needs to be an all or nothing deal. If you choose to ban abortion, you NEED to ALSO choose to help these kids do more than survive. If you aren't willing to take the measures to FULLY save these kids lives, then don't just take the easy way out and pronounce legal judgment on these people.

If we are going to use the Word of God to guide our political views, then we need to use ALL of it. You can't JUST ban abortion, you have to SAVE these kids lives.

But just so I can finally say what you want to hear, since that's all you guys are hearing, then fine. yes, it would be better to kill an innocent child and send them into God's arms than send them down a path to hell.

If you'd actually pay attention, however, you'd realize that isn't what I've been saying. Abortion is not an option, nor is it justifiable. If you're gonna pull this "oh so you think it's better for the child to die than have struggles", then I'm gonna pull that. It isn't just putting these kids in abusive environments or challenging life situations. It's putting them in a place where they may never find God, and as long as the church stays out of the system, these children never will find God.

THAT IS MY POINT. NOT THAT ABORTION IS OKAY OR EVEN BETTER. Abortion needs to be banned, but it CAN ONLY be banned if we reach out to these kids beyond our banners to prevent their death. We can pass anti-abortion laws until we are blue in the face, and it will solve nothing. We need to fight BEFORE abortion becomes a consideration. Banning abortion is only a safety net when we fail.

Of course, looking at how we've done as a church, I guess we do need the law to make up for our lack of concern.

[musicjaytee]

Exactly...

On one hand we have rough life... on the other hand we have no life...

When we choose no life over rough life, we cease being pro-life...
Except those aren't the only options. There is also a good life, which we can provide, or at least try to provide, through the church. We have prison ministries, why not 'orphanage' ministries.

Sorry I don't know what the exact term is for America's parentless child shelters. I got tired of using 'the system', so I just used orphanage. My apologies.

[Gandalf]

I disagree - the issues are separate, and can (actually must) be dealt with separately. We have to first work to prevent abortion. After that, there's a likelihood that some (not nearly all) of the additional children will end up "in the system" awaiting adoption, or need extra attention in other ways. But we don't know in advance how many, what sort of help, etc. We cannot address that issue until the children actually exist!

Asking for a solution to a hypothetical problem that could arise (and likely will to some unknown extent) before anyone could possibly predict what the problem will even be in actuality is nothing more than a reason to stall on solving the bigger problem, that women are allowed to have doctors murder their children legally.

[cheewiee]

You guys are getting really irritating. ABORTION IS WRONG. However, it needs to be an all or nothing deal. If you choose to ban abortion, you NEED to ALSO choose to help these kids do more than survive. If you aren't willing to take the measures to FULLY save these kids lives, then don't just take the easy way out and pronounce legal judgment on these people.

Who said that the church isn't willing to take the measures to help these kids?

If we are going to use the Word of God to guide our political views, then we need to use ALL of it. You can't JUST ban abortion, you have to SAVE these kids lives.

Again, who is arguing with you? You bring up the kids currently in the "System" Have you ever looked at the "system"? Have you ever thought about adopting a child from the "system"? I have, I took the parenting course and did the home study, and everything. Why didn't I Adopt? because in the state of Florida, The kids at the age we wanted that Got adopted, got adopted by their foster parents... It's the older kids that generally don't get adopted.. and in MANY MANY MANY cases they don't WANT to be adopted...

How do I know, because I have talked to them, one on one... Have you? that's what i thought...

But just so I can finally say what you want to hear, since that's all you guys are hearing, then fine. yes, it would be better to kill an innocent child and send them into God's arms than send them down a path to hell.

If you'd actually pay attention, however, you'd realize that isn't what I've been saying. Abortion is not an option, nor is it justifiable. If you're gonna pull this "oh so you think it's better for the child to die than have struggles", then I'm gonna pull that. It isn't just putting these kids in abusive environments or challenging life situations. It's putting them in a place where they may never find God, and as long as the church stays out of the system, these children never will find God.

THAT IS MY POINT. NOT THAT ABORTION IS OKAY OR EVEN BETTER. Abortion needs to be banned, but it CAN ONLY be banned if we reach out to these kids beyond our banners to prevent their death. We can pass anti-abortion laws until we are blue in the face, and it will solve nothing. We need to fight BEFORE abortion becomes a consideration. Banning abortion is only a safety net when we fail.

Of course, looking at how we've done as a church, I guess we do need the law to make up for our lack of concern.

Your missing the point.. Abortion is not only affecting the lives of the unwanted babies, it is staining the heart of our culture. We are becoming so cavalier with life, that I guarantee that if not stopped we will become an orwelian society where the disabled, sick, and elderly are "Put down" because who will take care of them...

This is the path our culture is taking, right now as we speak. Obviously you seem to be ok with that...

[cheewiee]

Except those aren't the only options. There is also a good life, which we can provide, or at least try to provide, through the church. We have prison ministries, why not 'orphanage' ministries.

Sorry I don't know what the exact term is for America's parentless child shelters. I got tired of using 'the system', so I just used orphanage. My apologies.

We dont have Parentless child shelters... The concept of the orphaniage has been largly replaced by the Foster Care system, where kids are put into homes of Adults who open their home...

[musicjaytee]

I disagree - the issues are separate, and can (actually must) be dealt with separately. We have to first work to prevent abortion. After that, there's a likelihood that some (not nearly all) of the additional children will end up "in the system" awaiting adoption, or need extra attention in other ways. But we don't know in advance how many, what sort of help, etc. We cannot address that issue until the children actually exist!
But it's not only the children who end up in the system. What about the kids who's parents choose to care for them, but have no idea how to raise a child and have no family or friends for help and support? What are the chances of a scared teenage mother, under the stress of raising a child alone, being unable to handle a baby who won't stop screaming and shaking the kid in frustration? That's happening already, and it's a problem.

Instead of protesting at abortion clinics (not to say that anyone on this board does, just a generalized 'Christian' we), we should be handing out pamphlets on the option to raise the child and where they can get help and support in doing so. We can set up weekly meetings at our churches where mothers who have discovered that they have a pregnancy they weren't prepared for can come for help and a positive persuasion to raise the child, and where they can come after the child has been born for continued support. We can have mothers who's youngest child has just left for college, or who is having general empty nest feelings, be a sort of "surrogate mother" to the teen mother and offer maternal support when it's lacking. We can try to set up some sort of deal with local grocery stores where we can send teen moms who are short on money to get 'supplies' at a discount. We can have groups where the father's can come in and get support from church fathers who have raised children, and reassure them that it is a struggle, but it is entirely worth staying with the mother and child, and being a part of the child's life.

For the kids in the system, we can work with parents wanting to adopt, help in preparing them for a special needs child, maybe even help them decide to take on an older child instead, favoring the needs of the child over their expectations of being a parent.

Really, all this should be happening now. But having a bill to ban abortion on the potentially near horizon brings the reality of the current problem into the spotlight. Whether or not banning abortion will significantly increase children in the system doesn't negate the fact that there will be more unprepared, scared parents who may not be able to care for these kids. And we need to reach out to them.

I apologize for the strong words before, I just get really irritated when Christians put too much focus on 'correcting' an issue without solving all of it. I posted some of my comments before some of the replies were made, and I appreciate that you guys also feel that there is a problem that needs some attention.

[cheewiee]

Instead of protesting at abortion clinics (not to say that anyone on this board does, just a generalized 'Christian' we), we should be handing out pamphlets on the option to raise the child and where they can get help and support in doing so.
We can also offer unprepared teenage mothers the option to place their baby up for adoption... I am not denying that there will be issues that arise... but to me, these issues are pale to the problem of abortion...

We can set up weekly meetings at our churches where mothers who have discovered that they have a pregnancy they weren't prepared for can come for help and a positive persuasion to raise the child, and where they can come after the child has been born for continued support. We can have mothers who's youngest child has just left for college, or who is having general empty nest feelings, be a sort of "surrogate mother" to the teen mother and offer maternal support when it's lacking. We can try to set up some sort of deal with local grocery stores where we can send teen moms who are short on money to get 'supplies' at a discount. We can have groups where the father's can come in and get support from church fathers who have raised children, and reassure them that it is a struggle, but it is entirely worth staying with the mother and child, and being a part of the child's life.

For the kids in the system, we can work with parents wanting to adopt, help in preparing them for a special needs child, maybe even help them decide to take on an older child instead, favoring the needs of the child over their expectations of being a parent.

Really, all this should be happening now. But having a bill to ban abortion on the potentially near horizon brings the reality of the current problem into the spotlight. Whether or not banning abortion will significantly increase children in the system doesn't negate the fact that there will be more unprepared, scared parents who may not be able to care for these kids. And we need to reach out to them.

Have you ever thought that perhaps your passion on this could be an indicator that this, could be your calling?

I apologize for the strong words before, I just get really irritated when Christians put too much focus on 'correcting' an issue without solving all of it. I posted some of my comments before some of the replies were made, and I appreciate that you guys also feel that there is a problem that needs some attention.

I know that we as a society have a problem... Abortion would't be an issue if we as a society learned to accept the consequenses of our actions instead of sweeping them under the rug....

Abortion would be an issue if we as a society embraced the Godly morals behind sexuality...

The Key to fixing this problem is Jesus, however let's be realistic, Not everyone is going to submit their lives to Christ... So that is why we have the government... and part of that is enacting laws as protections...

I cannot see how potential issues turn into an excuse for allowing abortions to happen...

Personally My parents thought my Brother had Muscular distropy.. (it turned out he was just a spastic kid) and My mom actually carried the Gene or MD...this all happened shortly after I was concieved. My parents considered aborting me, because of the "Rough life" I might experience being a Jerry's Kid...

A rough life, a disability, these temporal things are no reason for us to continue this brutal practice of killing our children at the rate of 1 MILLION per year in the us and 47 MILLION world wide....

[musicjaytee]

Again, who is arguing with you? You bring up the kids currently in the "System" Have you ever looked at the "system"? Have you ever thought about adopting a child from the "system"? I have, I took the parenting course and did the home study, and everything. Why didn't I Adopt? because in the state of Florida, The kids at the age we wanted that Got adopted, got adopted by their foster parents... It's the older kids that generally don't get adopted.. and in MANY MANY MANY cases they don't WANT to be adopted...

How do I know, because I have talked to them, one on one... Have you? that's what i thought...

Your missing the point.. Abortion is not only affecting the lives of the unwanted babies, it is staining the heart of our culture. We are becoming so cavalier with life, that I guarantee that if not stopped we will become an orwelian society where the disabled, sick, and elderly are "Put down" because who will take care of them...

This is the path our culture is taking, right now as we speak. Obviously you seem to be ok with that...
I actually have talked with hose kids, as well as kids in jail because of unprepared parents. I wouldn't want to be adopted after that many years of being turned away either. I would definitely have a "fine! then don't adopt me" attitude.

I am not okay with it. Laws against murder haven't done anything to change our attitudes towards the value of life either. I did an internship in a juveninle detention center where I will work when I graduate. I don't have much faith in the law, but I certainly don't think it should be done away with. I'm just saying that's only a part of the solution. The church on a whole has begun to favor popularity and membership over the Truth. Not all churches, but on a whole.

The church has turned so much focus on the love aspect of the Word that it's forgotten what that love entails. It preaches love and forgiveness, but rarely does it preach help/support, repentance, or even what we should be repenting of beyond hate and anger. When it's not hippie love being preached, it's a crusade to save the world, forgetting to support those we've reached out to.

When I saw so many posts going back and forth about the morality of abortion, i got frustrated. I've seen to many 'Christian' crusaders go out and covert people, condemning wrong acts, but never helping the converts to grow in the Word, leaving them to slip and slide alone. It just seemed like everyone was focused on criminalizing the sin and didn't care about the kids we were supposedly protecting. I just feel like a rule won't put any more value on the life of that child, so it is up to us to do so.

[musicjaytee]

We can also offer unprepared teenage mothers the option to place their baby up for adoption... I am not denying that there will be issues that arise... but to me, these issues are pale to the problem of abortion...
agreed.

Have you ever thought that perhaps your passion on this could be an indicator that this, could be your calling?
Close:D. My calling is in the juvenile prison systems. There's a big overlap in the people involved, though.

I know that we as a society have a problem... Abortion would't be an issue if we as a society learned to accept the consequenses of our actions instead of sweeping them under the rug....

Abortion would be an issue if we as a society embraced the Godly morals behind sexuality...
Agreed again. A better way of saying what I was trying to get at.

The Key to fixing this problem is Jesus, however let's be realistic, Not everyone is going to submit their lives to Christ... So that is why we have the government... and part of that is enacting laws as protections...

I cannot see how potential issues turn into an excuse for allowing abortions to happen...
Funny, but true. Like I said in my previous post, I don't have too much faith in the law beyond punishment. It is a necessary institution tho. What's worse is when people claim the fetus isn't a life.

Personally My parents thought my Brother had Muscular distropy.. (it turned out he was just a spastic kid) and My mom actually carried the Gene or MD...this all happened shortly after I was concieved. My parents considered aborting me, because of the "Rough life" I might experience being a Jerry's Kid...
Well that explains the strength of your stance. That makes for a really good argument against it...show people that problems may only be potential, but even if they are, it can be overcome.

A rough life, a disability, these temporal things are no reason for us to continue this brutal practice of killing our children at the rate of 1 MILLION per year in the us and 47 MILLION world wide....
Another agreement. Nothing (outside of complications arising during labor where the mother could be killed) is a reason to continue this practice. I just hope the church doesn't leave it up to the government to fix.

[cheewiee]

I actually have talked with hose kids, as well as kids in jail because of unprepared parents. I wouldn't want to be adopted after that many years of being turned away either. I would definitely have a "fine! then don't adopt me" attitude.

I am not okay with it. Laws against murder haven't done anything to change our attitudes towards the value of life either. I did an internship in a juveninle detention center where I will work when I graduate. I don't have much faith in the law, but I certainly don't think it should be done away with.

And no one is disagreeing, however to sit back and accept abortion because of what MIGHT happen, says what about us exactly... It says we would rather sweep the problem under the rug than deal with it...

I'm just saying that's only a part of the solution. The church on a whole has begun to favor popularity and membership over the Truth. Not all churches, but on a whole.

The church has turned so much focus on the love aspect of the Word that it's forgotten what that love entails. It preaches love and forgiveness, but rarely does it preach help/support, repentance, or even what we should be repenting of beyond hate and anger. When it's not hippie love being preached, it's a crusade to save the world, forgetting to support those we've reached out to.

I have yet to walk into a church that doesn't just preach help/support but also practice it... but then I don't walk into many churches...

However I have no problem with a church extending conditions for Help and support... Churches have an obligation to hold those they help accountable, for their own sake...

When I saw so many posts going back and forth about the morality of abortion, i got frustrated. I've seen to many 'Christian' crusaders go out and covert people, condemning wrong acts, but never helping the converts to grow in the Word, leaving them to slip and slide alone. It just seemed like everyone was focused on criminalizing the sin and didn't care about the kids we were supposedly protecting. I just feel like a rule won't put any more value on the life of that child, so it is up to us to do so.

I agree... but the first step is criminalizing the sin... until then our societies laws say that those kids have absoultly NO value....

[musicjaytee]

And no one is disagreeing, however to sit back and accept abortion because of what MIGHT happen, says what about us exactly... It says we would rather sweep the problem under the rug than deal with it...

I have yet to walk into a church that doesn't just preach help/support but also practice it... but then I don't walk into many churches...

However I have no problem with a church extending conditions for Help and support... Churches have an obligation to hold those they help accountable, for their own sake...

I agree... but the first step is criminalizing the sin... until then our societies laws say that those kids have absoultly NO value....
I meant we shouldn't do away with the law (legal system), not that we shouldn't do away with abortion.

I think all these problems started with the "zero tolerance" and "no child left behind" mentality. If you hit someone in defense, you get the same punishment they did, and instead of better education for the kids who struggle, just bring the other ones down. Just so long as no one's feelings get hurt. Heaven forbid we teach a child that they shouldn't have sex...that would be restraining who they are and forcing them into a mold. Worse off, forcing them to take on a responsibility they didn't choose? Never!!!! That would lead to regret and maybe even a change in behavior. Oh no!!! Then we'd all be cookie cutter cronies who actually feel a sense of accountability!!!!!
:rolleyes:

[Mugirl04]

I actually have talked with hose kids, as well as kids in jail because of unprepared parents. I wouldn't want to be adopted after that many years of being turned away either. I would definitely have a "fine! then don't adopt me" attitude.

I am not okay with it. Laws against murder haven't done anything to change our attitudes towards the value of life either. I did an internship in a juveninle detention center where I will work when I graduate. I don't have much faith in the law, but I certainly don't think it should be done away with. I'm just saying that's only a part of the solution. The church on a whole has begun to favor popularity and membership over the Truth. Not all churches, but on a whole.

The church has turned so much focus on the love aspect of the Word that it's forgotten what that love entails. It preaches love and forgiveness, but rarely does it preach help/support, repentance, or even what we should be repenting of beyond hate and anger. When it's not hippie love being preached, it's a crusade to save the world, forgetting to support those we've reached out to.

When I saw so many posts going back and forth about the morality of abortion, i got frustrated. I've seen to many 'Christian' crusaders go out and covert people, condemning wrong acts, but never helping the converts to grow in the Word, leaving them to slip and slide alone. It just seemed like everyone was focused on criminalizing the sin and didn't care about the kids we were supposedly protecting. I just feel like a rule won't put any more value on the life of that child, so it is up to us to do so.
While i argee with many of your points. I still think the church should stand oppose to abortion. What would happen if the church says its ok we love you. I think that would be going to far into positive tolerance and not negative tolerance. Yes we love these people but lets tell them where we stand on the issue. It is againist God's word. Yes if you are right if you do convert people it is your job to teach them plug them into a church. But I don't think we should be ok with abortion, now should we kick them out of our church and have zero tolerance by all means no. But when ask were we stand we need to say it is murder.