A nicer way of telling the truth? [Archive] - ThirdDay.com Message Boards

mikedevilsfan

05-23-2006, 02:35 PM

It has been brought to my attention several times that my methods are harsh, and that I should try a different way of approaching this subject (which includes a myriad of talking points).

Dear Church,
You have been duped. The Right wing has co-opted our Lord and Savior so that a minority of people can get filthy rich. People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent.
Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Why does the Church ignore this? Well there are various reasons.
1. reason is because people are selfish and only vote regarding their own lives. If they have food, healthcare, shelter, etc. They lean on their own understanding i.e. their bank accounts, their 401 K their superb job performance.
2.They have been taught this by Church leaders. Pastors such as the aformentioned have made statements like "Liberals are evil" and "liberals and progressives are secular humanists" and "socialism = Stalinism" and the Church has bought it.
3.leaders such as GWB have claimed to be a Christian and everyone bought that. He even said that God told him to invade Iraq (last I checked God was a better general than that).
4. Corporate media has tapped into fear and played the God card. People like Sean Hannity mention God, while not showing any evidence that he is a Christian, but rather a nominal "God" believer. This of course doesn't matter because he seems like such a great guy.

This is not a new phenominon at all. Throughout the ages people have used God to propagate their evil. Musolini used the Church to gain power. All of what I speak of is Christian culture, not Biblical. This ruffles feathers as observed here.
There is one other person here who gets where I am coming from and that is JesusLove. Believe me this is not a fun place to be. But someone, sometime needs to speak up about the attrocities that are being committed in our names.

So there you have it. Is that less painful?
Michael

middletree

05-23-2006, 02:42 PM

It has been brought to my attention several times that my methods are harsh, and that I should try a different way of approaching this subject (which includes a myriad of talking points).

What follows in your post isn't really that nice, but let me address this, if I may. I think you make solid points (not that I agree with all of them), but then, instead of backing them up, you resort to sayings that are bound to cause hurt feelings. And to top it off, when one tries to tell you this, you play the part of the victim, saying that your political perspective is why people are "attacking" you. I've seen this pattern over and over here.

For example, instead of telling people who believe that trickle-down economics works, don't accuse them of burying their head in the sand (an exact phrase you used toward me a few weeks ago), but show numbers about why you are convinced that it doesn't work.

I'd love to engage you in a conversation about these things, but your tone was such a turn-off that I usually sit out.

ObiShawn

05-23-2006, 02:43 PM

So there you have it. Is that less painful?
MichaelSure, but it is still not convincing. Where is your proof of all these things?

I'm more than willing to have a sensible debate/conversation about these things, but when you come here and just make a bunch of claims and accusations, especially when you do not provide proof to back them up, you just come off as a guy with an extreme bias.

Your position on these issues is based off of how you beleive the whole of the Bush Administration to be evil. So, again, I ask you, where is your proof?

WeaselInYerFoot

05-23-2006, 03:00 PM

It has been brought to my attention several times that my methods are harsh, and that I should try a different way of approaching this subject (which includes a myriad of talking points).

What I think would be a good way of posting a statement such as this would be something like this:

Dear Church,
You have been duped. The Right wing has co-opted our Lord and Savior so that a minority of people can get filthy rich. People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent. <Insert proof, such as an event in the past, a quote from one of them, the decisions they've made, their viewpoints etc, followed by an in depth explanation of your view of innocence or examples of cases of said innocent victims>

Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit <Proof that the loss of such limbs were the result of Haliburtonquo only, and not of terrorist guerillas in Iraq, Additional proof that indicate Haliburton as being contracted based on the relation with the President and not because of business> and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.<Proof of these ties and responsability>

Why does the Church ignore this? Well there are various reasons.
1. reason is because people are selfish and only vote regarding their own lives. If they have food, healthcare, shelter, etc. They lean on their own understanding i.e. their bank accounts, their 401 K their superb job performance. <Good point - but generalized>

2.They have been taught this by Church leaders. Pastors such as the aformentioned have made statements like "Liberals are evil" and "liberals and progressives are secular humanists" and "socialism = Stalinism" and the Church has bought it. <Again good point - but some have made their own opinions rather than adopting the pastors point of view>

3.leaders such as GWB have claimed to be a Christian and everyone bought that. He even said that God told him to invade Iraq (last I checked God was a better general than that).<Another good point - but reasons as to why you think God would do thing differently would help (pasages for example)>

4. Corporate media has tapped into fear and played the God card. People like Sean Hannity mention God, while not showing any evidence that he is a Christian, but rather a nominal "God" believer. This of course doesn't matter because he seems like such a great guy.<Example sof said lack of evidence would help in this case>

This is not a new phenominon at all. Throughout the ages people have used God to propagate their evil. Musolini used the Church to gain power. All of what I speak of is Christian culture, not Biblical. This ruffles feathers as observed here.
There is one other person here who gets where I am coming from and that is JesusLove. Believe me this is not a fun place to be. But someone, sometime needs to speak up about the attrocities that are being committed in our names.

So there you have it. Is that less painful?
Michael

Joshua24:15

05-23-2006, 03:11 PM

It has been brought to my attention several times that my methods are harsh, and that I should try a different way of approaching this subject (which includes a myriad of talking points).It would be beneficial to your cause to carefully seperate the topics you'd like to discuss and create a thread for each. For example, in the letter below, you cover poor Church leadership, politicians and others abusing their association with God and Christianity, the selfishness of the Church today, Are Liberals Evil?, the pros and cons of socialism, the failings of a free market economy, main stream media, greed in the church, and Musolini.

Chose a few; create a thread; and make an initial, thoughful post.

Dear Church,
You have been duped. The Right wing has co-opted our Lord and Savior so that a minority of people can get filthy rich.How did they do this? When did this happen?
People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent.Who is taking the lives of the innocent? When? Where? How?
Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.I thought most of those children had their limbs severed by landmines planted by their own government. What are your thoughts on the Iran's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade?
1. reason is because people are selfish and only vote regarding their own lives. If they have food, healthcare, shelter, etc. They lean on their own understanding i.e. their bank accounts, their 401 K their superb job performance.I can only speak for myself and those closest to me, but we tend to vote for candidates that seem to best reflect our Biblically based moral standards. Of course, no candidate thus far has been a perfect fit. That aside, I agree that the church in America is horribly self-centered when compared to the persecuted churches around the world.
2.They have been taught this by Church leaders. Pastors such as the aformentioned have made statements like "Liberals are evil" and "liberals and progressives are secular humanists" and "socialism = Stalinism" and the Church has bought it.Well, strictly speaking, socialism does equal Stalinism because a socialist system is so easily abused that any socialist society will quickly degrade. This is caused by the removal of personal responsibility that socialism fosters.

I don't think liberals are evil any more than conservatives are evil. I do think that the typical liberal agenda is at great odds with Christian morals, however.
3.leaders such as GWB have claimed to be a Christian and everyone bought that. He even said that God told him to invade Iraq (last I checked God was a better general than that).You know, I've tried hard to find where President Bush actually said that, but I can't. Could you provide the quote in context?
4. Corporate media has tapped into fear and played the God card. People like Sean Hannity mention God, while not showing any evidence that he is a Christian, but rather a nominal "God" believer. This of course doesn't matter because he seems like such a great guy.Corporate media has played the God card? I don't understand what you mean by this.

Lots of people claim to be Christian, but clearly are not.

'You will know them by their fruits...'

I suspect, and hope, the actual Christians in the church (as opposed to the lip-service Christians) are able to discern real Christian fruit from false. Once again, though, no individual candidate fits the bill perfectl.y

This is not a new phenominon at all. Throughout the ages people have used God to propagate their evil. Musolini used the Church to gain power. All of what I speak of is Christian culture, not Biblical.Oh, it goes back much farther than Musolini. The Church is guilty of some horrible, horrible crimes. The question, of course, becomes were the people committing those crimes actually Christian, or did the enemy manage to sneak agents into leadership positions? How can we know?
This ruffles feathers as observed here. There is one other person here who gets where I am coming from and that is JesusLove. Believe me this is not a fun place to be. But someone, sometime needs to speak up about the attrocities that are being committed in our names.What attrocities are being commited under the Christian name that the average, mainstream Joe Q. Christian doesn't readily disavow?
So there you have it. Is that less painful?Better. Except for this part.

cheewiee

05-23-2006, 03:27 PM

...Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Why does the Church ignore this? Well there are various reasons.

Perhaps it is because they don't view the war in Iraq as a money making scheme for Haliburton, but rather a crusade to remove a ruthless dictator that engaged in torture, murder, rape against his own people..

It is sad that there are those who in attempting to fight our troops use methods that we find disgusting... But to be honest, I find Husseins Rape Rooms, and his use of Plastics shredders to kill his politicial enemies just as disgusting...

I am sorry if you would rather see such a tyrant in power, free to torment his own people and finance suicide bombers against our Allies in Israel. If you belive that leaving Hussein in power was the Christian alternative to what the current administration has done then more power too you... but I greatly disagree...

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 03:49 PM

Dear Church,
You have been duped. The Right wing has co-opted our Lord and Savior so that a minority of people can get filthy rich. People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent.
Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Why does the Church ignore this? Well there are various reasons.
1. reason is because people are selfish and only vote regarding their own lives. If they have food, healthcare, shelter, etc. They lean on their own understanding i.e. their bank accounts, their 401 K their superb job performance.
2.They have been taught this by Church leaders. Pastors such as the aformentioned have made statements like "Liberals are evil" and "liberals and progressives are secular humanists" and "socialism = Stalinism" and the Church has bought it.
3.leaders such as GWB have claimed to be a Christian and everyone bought that. He even said that God told him to invade Iraq (last I checked God was a better general than that).
4. Corporate media has tapped into fear and played the God card. People like Sean Hannity mention God, while not showing any evidence that he is a Christian, but rather a nominal "God" believer. This of course doesn't matter because he seems like such a great guy.

This is not a new phenominon at all. Throughout the ages people have used God to propagate their evil. Musolini used the Church to gain power. All of what I speak of is Christian culture, not Biblical. This ruffles feathers as observed here.
There is one other person here who gets where I am coming from and that is JesusLove. Believe me this is not a fun place to be. But someone, sometime needs to speak up about the attrocities that are being committed in our names.

So there you have it. Is that less painful?
Michael
The Gospel according to Michael. Michael, GOD Bless you. You are in the right, We are in the right. It is the moral thing to do to lead others to the truth! Don't ever give up!
God Bless!
Steve

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 03:50 PM

Perhaps it is because they don't view the war in Iraq as a money making scheme for Haliburton, but rather a crusade to remove a ruthless dictator that engaged in torture, murder, rape against his own people..
Wait, I thought we invaded Iraq because they had WMD's? Now since we don't have WMD's, it's a humanitarian mission? Give me a break! Do you really believe that?

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 03:53 PM

Sure, but it is still not convincing. Where is your proof of all these things?

I'm more than willing to have a sensible debate/conversation about these things, but when you come here and just make a bunch of claims and accusations, especially when you do not provide proof to back them up, you just come off as a guy with an extreme bias.

Your position on these issues is based off of how you beleive the whole of the Bush Administration to be evil. So, again, I ask you, where is your proof?
Obi, do you not read the paper? There's proof every day on the front pages!!! I guess the poll numbers are biased too... Everybody's against St. George... it's a conspiracy. One President nearly gets impeached over lying about sex. Another is responsible for the death of over one hundred thousand people (because of his LIES), and we stand by and do nothing about it. What's wrong with this picture? Huh Obi?

ObiShawn

05-23-2006, 04:01 PM

You do realize that there is an "Edit" button, right? :rolleyes:

I am well aware of the newspapers and if I beleived them I'd be just as brain washed as you. You think it is foolish to trust the governemnt, which is wise, but I think it is just as foolish to trust the media.

I asked Mikedevilsfan for proof of his statements and you want to automatically assume I'm on the Bush defense. I haven't said one word to defend Bush.

Joshua24:15

05-23-2006, 04:07 PM

Obi, do you not read the paper? There's proof every day on the front pages!!!The newspapers tell me that they don't like Bush, or the war, or national security, or Christians, or any sense of morals that impede their desire to do whatever they want.

What they do like is money. Lots and lots of money. I know this because the only thing the major news outlets report are 'sensationalist' topics because those topics is what gets the most viewer. Journalistic intergity and unbiased reporting be damned! They want the money!
I guess the poll numbers are biased too... Everybody's against St. George... it's a conspiracy.By this, are you proposing that the right thing to do is the popular thing to do? Is the majority always right?
One President nearly gets impeached over lying about sex. Another is responsible for the death of over one hundred thousand people (because of his LIES), and we stand by and do nothing about it. What's wrong with this picture? Huh Obi?That's odd. I thought it was Saddam Hussein that was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. What solution would you have proposed to obvious problem Hussein was presenting? What solution to you propose we take to the very real and current threat of Iran?

cheewiee

05-23-2006, 04:07 PM

Wait, I thought we invaded Iraq because they had WMD's? Now since we don't have WMD's, it's a humanitarian mission? Give me a break! Do you really believe that?

You would rather have Saddam Hussein in power? You believe that the Middle East would be more secure with Hussein in power? ESPECIALLY considering the Shiaa Nutjob incharge of Iran right now?!?!

Prewar intelligence was wrong, and it SHOULD be looked into, but regardless to say that this war was propigated simply so Haliburton could profit without substantiating proof is called LIBEL, it is illegal and as such a sin... It is also Gossip... And really I could go further to say that Attacking Bush Personally borders on "Touching God's anointed" because like him or Not he is the God given authority over this nation... This principle is seen clearly with Saul and David...

Even though the Intelligence is wrong... I am glad that there was an end to the brutality of the Hussein Regeme...

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 04:17 PM

People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent.
Pat, Jerry and James ARE, in my opinion, all about the money. They don't care how many people are actually brought to Christ. It always amazed me that Pat told his followers a few years back "God told me (meaning him) to run for Preisdent". I guess God wanted to humble him with a crushing defeat as well. Recently Pat predicted terrible storms will hit the US this year, including a tsunami in the northeast. And people believe him... that's what amazes me.

Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.
But Michael, even though the wounded who will never be able to hold a job ever again, you have to admit they are free people. Don't you take comfort in knowing that? OY..... Oh, by the way, Halliburton's stock rose today.. up 1.04% edging up to it's 52-week high. god bless George!

Leaders such as GWB have claimed to be a Christian and everyone bought that. He even said that God told him to invade Iraq (last I checked God was a better general than that).
Why do faith-based Americans not stand up and say enough is enough. If Mike or myself claim to be Christian or have Christian beliefs, you challenge us relentlessly. George Bush is responsible for murder in the name of God yet most Christians don't question his beliefs or motives. I really don't understand.

I would like to add one other comment. A few years back at GWB made a parody video for a Broadcasters Roast. In the video, he walked around the oval office and looked behind chairs and under desks and after each search, he'd say, "No Weapons of Mass Destruction here!" and he'd chuckle. I wanted to vomit. OUR kids are losing their lives in Iraq and this man is making jokes. He totally sickens me. In my opinion, he has many in this country completely duped.

jwil59

05-23-2006, 04:24 PM

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 04:24 PM

You would rather have Saddam Hussein in power?
I think there are more ruthless dictators in power today, who are worse than Saddam. We are not the world's police. The UN is in place for a purpose; to avert catastrophies like this war, and to find diplomatic solutions to problems. This war wasn't about terrorism. This war wasn't about saving and freeing the people.

And really I could go further to say that Attacking Bush Personally borders on "Touching God's anointed" because like him or Not he is the God given authority over this nation... This principle is seen clearly with Saul and David...
Touching God's Anointed? Give me a break.. And he isn't God's authority over the nation. You may recall he lost the election the first time around. The election was stolen by activist judges in Florida.

Even though the Intelligence is wrong... I am glad that there was an end to the brutality of the Hussein Regeme...
How would you feel if someone invaded America based on faulty intelligence and hundreds of thousands were killed possibly including some of your family members. Would you be glad?

ObiShawn

05-23-2006, 04:37 PM

You would rather have Saddam Hussein in power? I think there are more ruthless dictators in power today, who are worse than Saddam. You didn't answer his question. Would you rather have Saddam still in power? Do you feel that we were wrong to remove him?

We are not the world's police. The UN is in place for a purpose; to avert catastrophies like this war, and to find diplomatic solutions to problems. I seem to recall the UN wanting to search for the WMD but Saddam wouldn't allow them in. Good job UN.

jwil59

05-23-2006, 04:40 PM

Wait, I thought we invaded Iraq because they had WMD's? Now since we don't have WMD's, it's a humanitarian mission? Give me a break! Do you really believe that?

Isn't this the same war all the liberals in Congress voted for...

Im just sayin.............

cheewiee

05-23-2006, 04:49 PM

I think there are more ruthless dictators in power today, who are worse than Saddam. We are not the world's police. The UN is in place for a purpose; to avert catastrophies like this war, and to find diplomatic solutions to problems. This war wasn't about terrorism. This war wasn't about saving and freeing the people. Really, Name one?

Touching God's Anointed? Give me a break.. And he isn't God's authority over the nation. You may recall he lost the election the first time around. The election was stolen by activist judges in Florida.[/quote

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA That's the must ABSURD thing I think I have seen...

The election stolen by activist judges in Florida... Right..

Also is that why EVERY POSSIBLE recount senario that Al gore requested would have resulted in a Bush Victory?!?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_electio n,_2000

It was only a Statewide recount that the Gore camp REJECTED that would have given him Florida...

Actually had the Statewide recount counting the undervotes as ordered by The ACTIVIST FLORIDA SUPREME COURT gone through, Bush Still would have won...

But Guy... You really need to go back and look at the 2000 Presidental Election if you believe it was the Florida Supreme court that "Stole" the election.

[quote]How would you feel if someone invaded America based on faulty intelligence and hundreds of thousands were killed possibly including some of your family members. Would you be glad?
If my sister was brutally raped by the son of our ruthless dictator who gassed my homeland, I would be pretty thankful....

Joshua24:15

05-23-2006, 04:51 PM

I think there are more ruthless dictators in power today, who are worse than Saddam. We are not the world's police. The UN is in place for a purpose; to avert catastrophies like this war, and to find diplomatic solutions to problems.Like the wildly successful Food for Oil program? And the bang-up job they did in Kosovo? Somalia? Rwanda?

The UN is the most ineffective international body to have ever existed on this planet. There is not a single significant action they haven't managed to mangle beyond recognition, usually with the end result of tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. Meanwhile the warlords responsible escape and remain unprosecuted, while the General Assembly sits upon their thrones condemning the nations that actually disposed of the murderous tyrants.

Even UNICEF is rife with problems of child abuse.

You seriously want to let these people dictate the means toward 'world peace'? If we do, there's no doubt that someone will soon be invading American soil.

Oh, wait. That already happened on September 11th, 2001.

How would you feel if someone invaded America based on faulty intelligence and hundreds of thousands were killed possibly including some of your family members. Would you be glad?From what I gather, that vast majority of Iraqis are absolutely thrilled to be rid of Sadam. Same for the folks in Afganistan. Sadly, most of these people still cower under the fists of the muslim clerics, who remain strongly opposed to any sort of democratic process.

Healing Oil

05-23-2006, 04:59 PM

:rolleyes:

"You have the right. We have the right". You all are wrong and need to turn from your evil ways. You are all stupid and know nothing. We know everything. We live in reality, Bla bla blah...Did I read correctly? Did Jesuslove refer to Mikes opinion as the gospel?? Oh my gosh...Arrogance rears it's ugly head yet again.

Anyways, Im over it.

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 05:25 PM

Like the wildly successful Food for Oil program? And the bang-up job they did in Kosovo? Somalia? Rwanda?
funny, we are still not in those other places

The UN is the most ineffective international body to have ever existed on this planet.
Yes, lets just give up on all international treaties. If the UN isn't working, let's quit. What kind of attitude is that? The UN was designed to solve world problems.

Even UNICEF is rife with problems of child abuse. Well let's fix the problems with the UN, and not take on the world by ourselves.

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 05:28 PM

From what I gather, that vast majority of Iraqis are absolutely thrilled to be rid of Sadam. Same for the folks in Afganistan. Sadly, most of these people still cower under the fists of the muslim clerics, who remain strongly opposed to any sort of democratic process.
I have spoken to some English speaking Iraqi's online. They don't seem all that happy to me. And then there are a couple hundred thousand dead Iraqis that might otherwise be alive. I can't imagine they are real thrilled. Oh wait, they are dead so they can't vote anyway. But I bet their families aren't too thrilled with America.

ObiShawn

05-23-2006, 05:30 PM

Yes, lets just give up on all international treaties. If the UN isn't working, let's quit. What kind of attitude is that? He never suggested such a thing. Dont' put words in other people's mouths.

The UN was designed to solve world problems. They are falling behind on the job then. I find it funny that you aren't upset with the incompetent UN but you look for every opportunity to jump at Bush.

Well let's fix the problems with the UN, and not take on the world by ourselves.And in the mean time, the US will get hit again by another terrorist attack. No thank you. I'll pass.

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 05:30 PM

Healing Oil

05-23-2006, 05:32 PM

Buh-bye Oil! :DGladly :) You're 43?:rolleyes:

Jesuslove

05-23-2006, 05:33 PM

Gladly :) You're 43?:rolleyes:
:D

Joshua24:15

05-23-2006, 05:57 PM

funny, we are still not in those other placesThat's because we (the US and allies) rolled in and resolved the problem. Note: It is generally acknowledged that faster military intervention would have prevented thousands of civilian deaths in each of the scenarios listed. Who resisted military option for so long? What what their reasoning? Have you been paying attention to what is occuring in Sudan? What is the General Assembly's position with the massacres occuring there?

Yes, lets just give up on all international treaties. If the UN isn't working, let's quit. What kind of attitude is that? The UN was designed to solve world problems.No. I think the UN has failed. The UN has not solved any world problems, not a single one. In fact, everywhere the UN does intervene has become a bloodbath or cesspool of corruption.
Well let's fix the problems with the UN, and not take on the world by ourselves.The UN is beyond repair. A new international body is needed.

I agree; it is rediculous that the US has been forced into positions where we must take action against the will of the international community. Since many other nations cling to desperate bits of hope that the UN still might work, they poo-poo the US for ending massacres while the UN deliberates on how effective sanctions might be.

What would have occured in Kosovo if the US had not intervened? What if we refused to sent troops?

jwil59

05-23-2006, 06:40 PM

That's because we (the US and allies) rolled in and resolved the problem. Note: It is generally acknowledged that faster military intervention would have prevented thousands of civilian deaths in each of the scenarios listed. Who resisted military option for so long? What what their reasoning? Have you been paying attention to what is occuring in Sudan? What is the General Assembly's position with the massacres occuring there?

No. I think the UN has failed. The UN has not solved any world problems, not a single one. In fact, everywhere the UN does intervene has become a bloodbath or cesspool of corruption.
The UN is beyond repair. A new international body is needed.

I agree; it is rediculous that the US has been forced into positions where we must take action against the will of the international community. Since many other nations cling to desperate bits of hope that the UN still might work, they poo-poo the US for ending massacres while the UN deliberates on how effective sanctions might be.

What would have occured in Kosovo if the US had not intervened? What if we refused to sent troops?

Well said

kiwisongbird

05-24-2006, 01:39 AM

Only Jesus can solve this and the way I figure it - it's gonna come with a lot more war, pestilence and famine etc... families turning against each other - all sorts of nasty stuff... sad eh? but true...:(

I thought the reason for the US going into Iraq was cos of the WMD as well, but Saddam needed to be taken out - pity it wasn't done the first time - never could figure that out. :confused:

Living in SE Asia I wonder about some of the stuff going down over here in some countries that at times the whole world seems to ignore - maybe there's no oil here. :confused:

I certainly don't see the UN working to help any countries very much either. :(

What are we supposed to do? Couldn't we get together and pray for these people? It's a bit tricky to pray for peace cos we know that's not going to happen...

Feeling sad :) oh well, smile on!

Kyle's dad

05-24-2006, 08:54 AM

There is one other person here who gets where I am coming from and that is JesusLove. Believe me this is not a fun place to be. But someone, sometime needs to speak up about the attrocities that are being committed in our names.

I just love it when people encounter people who have a different opinion than they do and they pull the "You just don't get where I'm coming from" card. Do you have any idea how condescending that is?

We all get where your coming from, we just may not always agree with you.

If you truly want to have a discussion that won't lead to argument then maybe you shouldn't come on here like some wannabe prophet who professes to know better than all. I mean you start out by telling people that you're going to try to be more respectful and then you proceed to tell us that we have all been duped. And in the midst of this you have yet to provide any data to back up your claims.

Kyle's dad

05-24-2006, 09:26 AM

The Right wing has co-opted our Lord and Savior so that a minority of people can get filthy rich. People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent.

It's interesting that you mention Dobson here. I would really appreciate if you could substantiate that. While I have no doubt that he is a Bush supporter, I would never say he has gone the way of the dollar. He has let it be known repetatedly that he does not want donations to his minsitry to be taken away from people's tithes. On his radio and tv ministry he is constantly telling people that they should give to their home congregations first, and if they are willing to spare something after that than he is grateful, but if they can't the funds will come from somwhere else. He has said that he would rather see his ministry fold and local congregations continue than to see his ministry continue at the expense of local congregations. I know you weren't necessarily talking about how he funds his ministry but this attitude speaks to his character.

I'm with you on Falwell and Robertson, but I really don't think Dobson has gone the way of the dollar.

. Corporate media has tapped into fear and played the God card. People like Sean Hannity mention God, while not showing any evidence that he is a Christian, but rather a nominal "God" believer. This of course doesn't matter because he seems like such a great guy..

So you must follow Sean Hannity around all the time??? He doesn't mention God in the sense of merely being a "God beleiver." He speaks very openly about his Catholic faith.

cheewiee

05-24-2006, 09:34 AM

So you must follow Sean Hannity around all the time??? He doesn't mention God in the sense of merely being a "God beleiver." He speaks very openly about his Catholic faith.

Don't ya know, It's the new rage... To question the saving faith of somone....

It's a good thing Hannity's salvation has nothing to do whatsoever He does as a person... come to think of it, it's also a good thing Mike's salvation doesn't depend on anything he does either...

jabob

05-24-2006, 09:56 AM

This has the potential to be an interesting debate. However, it probably will not be because of assumptions rather than facts. (For example: We went to Iraq because of WMD's. Show me where Bush said that.) Notice that the person who started this thread has not responded even though he has been directily addressed several times. What does that tell you?

cheewiee

05-24-2006, 10:23 AM

It has been brought to my attention several times that my methods are harsh, and that I should try a different way of approaching this subject (which includes a myriad of talking points).

Dear Church,
You have been duped.
How so?
The Right wing has co-opted our Lord and Savior so that a minority of people can get filthy rich.
While the left has completly rejected our Lord and Savior, Carried the banner of baby killing, and complete moral degregation, replacing Godly concepts of Morality, with twisted men's morality
People like Pat Robertson, jerry Fallwell and James Dobson have gone the way of the dollar and support people who...... take the lives of the innocent.

You mean while people like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton promote a "choice" that takes the lives of the innocent

Right now there are children walking around with limbs blown off so that Haliburton can profit and the people responsible are tied to the Church of Jesus Christ.

Right now there are children getting sucked out of their mother uterius, because people are unwilling to take responsibilty for their actions and demand a choice, all the while a Dr. profits in this infantcide
...Michael

Man that was fun...

Jesuslove

05-24-2006, 10:28 AM

For example: We went to Iraq because of WMD's. Show me where Bush said that.
Here you go.. you asked for it..

Bush's statements regarding Iraq possessing WMD's:

United Nations Address
September 12, 2002
"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio Address
October 5, 2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

What do you think now?

Jesuslove

05-24-2006, 10:30 AM

While the left has completly rejected our Lord and Savior, Carried the banner of baby killing, and complete moral degregation, replacing Godly concepts of Morality, with twisted men's morality
The left hasn't rejected Jesus. There are many many Christians on the left. Abortion is only one issue. Moral issues fall on both sides. There are some moral issues that clearly favor the Democrats and liberals.

cheewiee

05-24-2006, 10:40 AM

The left hasn't rejected Jesus. There are many many Christians on the left. Abortion is only one issue. Moral issues fall on both sides. There are some moral issues that clearly favor the Democrats and liberals.

The slaughter of over 40 million babies in 25 years is a PRETTY BIG ISSUE if you ask me...

Jesuslove

05-24-2006, 10:46 AM

The slaughter of over 40 million babies in 25 years is a PRETTY BIG ISSUE if you ask me...
Two things...

Abortion is a HUGE issue. And we need to find a solution to reduce, if not eliminate abortions in this country. Contraception would be a good start.

If these 40 million babies were alive, there would probably be 50 million or more unwanted (meaning "not properly cared for") people in America right now. We'd be a third world country. We have half a million children in foster care or up for adoption in America now. Our system would be overburdened. That's not to justify abortion, but you can't ignore the impact banning abortion would have.

jabob

05-24-2006, 10:47 AM

I think that nowhere in those statements does Bush say that is why we are going/went to Iraq.

cheewiee

05-24-2006, 10:56 AM

Two things...

Abortion is a HUGE issue. And we need to find a solution to reduce, if not eliminate abortions in this country. Contraception would be a good start.

If these 40 million babies were alive, there would probably be 50 million or more unwanted (meaning "not properly cared for") people in America right now. We'd be a third world country. We have half a million children in foster care or up for adoption in America now. Our system would be overburdened. That's not to justify abortion, but you can't ignore the impact banning abortion would have.

First, our morality has gotten skewed.... Premarital sex is wrong plain and simple.... It is sin, and outside of God's plan. SO.. if people listened to God in the first place it would greatly diminish any percieved need for abortions..

Second, we have become a society where we can be held harmless for the results of our actions... Abortion is a great example of this. When we make a mistake, we simply erase the result..

Our society, our culture is so sex focused its really disturbing... I mean, if i went to a bar to watch cuts of beef get paraded around on stage you would think I have some serious food issues...

If our sitcoms and drama's were all about food.. you would say there is something wrong.. well the same goes for sex... our society is so out of ballance regarding sex.... And I hate to say it, it's the left... well the entertainers on the left such as Madonna, and the like who call us Christians Prudes that are leading the charge into more and more moral depravity...

middletree

05-24-2006, 10:58 AM

I think that nowhere in those statements does Bush say that is why we are going/went to Iraq.
I don't have any links, but I recall quite clearly that Bush used the idea of WMDs as his main reason for entering Iraq. Iraq had agreed, at the end of the first Gulf War, to a UN mandate that he get rid of all WMDs, and not develop or purchase any new ones.

I don't think revisionist history serves anyone. I certainly don't agree with the conspiracists who claim that the war was created so that Halliburton could get rich. But I think Bush honestly believed the bad information that he was given about Iraq's WMDs, and that he believed this to be the best solution.

I was on the record as being against the invasion when it started, and I was one of very few conservatives held that position at the time. Even if the WMDs were real, this was not the best solution. I just wish more people would get out of their Republican/Democrat cubby holes and think independently.

jabob

05-24-2006, 11:01 AM

Yes, Bush did believe that info. So did most of the world leaders and at least one former President (Clinton). There is a big difference between being wrong and lying. Many people have said they remember Bush saying we were going to Iraq for WMDs, but have never been able to prove it. Interesting since transcripts of every speech he makes are available.

cheewiee

05-24-2006, 11:12 AM

I don't have any links, but I recall quite clearly that Bush used the idea of WMDs as his main reason for entering Iraq. Iraq had agreed, at the end of the first Gulf War, to a UN mandate that he get rid of all WMDs, and not develop or purchase any new ones.

I don't think revisionist history serves anyone. I certainly don't agree with the conspiracists who claim that the war was created so that Halliburton could get rich. But I think Bush honestly believed the bad information that he was given about Iraq's WMDs, and that he believed this to be the best solution.

I was on the record as being against the invasion when it started, and I was one of very few conservatives held that position at the time. Even if the WMDs were real, this was not the best solution. I just wish more people would get out of their Republican/Democrat cubby holes and think independently.

I dunno... we Hussein become the Monster he was...

Hussein did everything he could to convince his Generals that he still had WMD's... He still played the same cat and mouse game with the Inspectors as he did prior to them being kicked out in 1998... He still occassionaly flew into the no fly zone... He didn't obey the conditions of the ceasefire... Right there was enough reason for Bush to invade... the fact that the International Community didn't back him on this only shows their lack of fortitude...

Actually it also shows something else... The Oil for food programme that was designed to help Iraqi's feed themselves had it's funds diverted to Hussein and other important figures in the governements of France, Russia, and the UN itself. This is why those two nations, and the UN opposed Military action so... France and Russia were on board with believing that Iraq had WMD's.

Today we can look back and see that the intellegence was wrong, and there HAS GOT TO BE an investigation as to why.. This is one of those instances where the President and the GOP has really upset me.. We have to know what went wrong...

middletree

05-24-2006, 11:17 AM

Yes, Bush did believe that info. So did most of the world leaders and at least one former President (Clinton). There is a big difference between being wrong and lying.

I agree, and I never intended to come across as saying that Bush knowingly put thousands of soldiers in harm's way because of false info, lies, money, oil, or anything else. Hope I was clear on that.

Many people have said they remember Bush saying we were going to Iraq for WMDs, but have never been able to prove it. Interesting since transcripts of every speech he makes are available.

I could probably dig them up if I chose to spend my time in that manner, but to be truthful, I know what I heard at the time, and it's not my goal in life to prove it to others. I also don't have links to prove that JFK got shot, but I don't want to bother finding such proof. I'm not terribly concerned if others remember things the way I do, or that they agree with me.

Jesuslove

05-24-2006, 11:31 AM

First, our morality has gotten skewed.... Premarital sex is wrong plain and simple.... It is sin, and outside of God's plan. SO.. if people listened to God in the first place it would greatly diminish any percieved need for abortions..

Second, we have become a society where we can be held harmless for the results of our actions... Abortion is a great example of this. When we make a mistake, we simply erase the result..

Our society, our culture is so sex focused its really disturbing... I mean, if i went to a bar to watch cuts of beef get paraded around on stage you would think I have some serious food issues...

If our sitcoms and drama's were all about food.. you would say there is something wrong.. well the same goes for sex... our society is so out of ballance regarding sex.... And I hate to say it, it's the left... well the entertainers on the left such as Madonna, and the like who call us Christians Prudes that are leading the charge into more and more moral depravity...
While your comments are good, I still don't think they address the real issue. How do we care for an additional 50 million or so people that would have otherwise been aborted, or would be offspring of those aborted?

Jesuslove

05-24-2006, 11:33 AM

I was on the record as being against the invasion when it started, and I was one of very few conservatives held that position at the time. Even if the WMDs were real, this was not the best solution. I just wish more people would get out of their Republican/Democrat cubby holes and think independently.
It was NOT the best solution.. and I also felt that way before the war started. Our government seemed too anxious to invade.

middletree

05-24-2006, 11:36 AM

While your comments are good, I still don't think they address the real issue. How do we care for an additional 50 million or so people that would have otherwise been aborted, or would be offspring of those aborted?
It's a valid question, but the question is a diversion from the real issue: is it acceptable in God's eyes to allow legal abortions? If not, then we, as a nation, have grieved God. Just because you can find another situation that would possibly be tough to deal with, has no bearing on the horrific sin that abortion is.

cheewiee

05-24-2006, 11:39 AM

It's a valid question, but the question is a diversion from the real issue: is it acceptable in God's eyes to allow legal abortions? If not, then we, as a nation, have grieved God. Just because you can find another situation that would possibly be tough to deal with, has no bearing on the horrific sin that abortion is.
Exactly.... Well said...

Jesuslove

05-24-2006, 11:39 AM

middletree

05-24-2006, 11:42 AM

I agree for the most part. But until we have developed another solution, what should we do?
I have no political solution. Abortion is not the problem in our country. The real problem is a nation that has rejected Jesus. Abortion is a symptom of the problem. The answer to your question is a spiritual one. The biblical answer is:

1. We should stop sinning (in this case, stop allowing abortion to happen)
2. We should repent as a nation and turn back to Him. By which I mean prayer, not any of the political things that most Christians think will save us.

ObiShawn

05-24-2006, 01:19 PM

How do we care for an additional 50 million or so people that would have otherwise been aborted, or would be offspring of those aborted?I'm not sure what the exact answer should be to that question, but I can tell you this, allowing all of the illegal immigrants to remain wouldn't help the solution.

middletree

05-24-2006, 01:31 PM

I'm not sure what the exact answer should be to that question, but I can tell you this, allowing all of the illegal immigrants to remain wouldn't help the solution.
J is talking about abortion, not immigration.

ObiShawn

05-24-2006, 01:52 PM

I know what he was talking about, but I am trying to make a point. As for the subject of this thread . . . take your pick. It is basically about debating all things that are seemingly conservative.

The point I was leading to is this; Jesuslove, while saying that he wasn't trying to provide justification for all of the abortions, pretty much implied that it is still a good thing that all of the abortions have happened. His point being that . . .

If these 40 million babies were alive, there would probably be 50 million or more unwanted (meaning "not properly cared for") people in America right now. We'd be a third world country. We have half a million children in foster care or up for adoption in America now. Our system would be overburdened. That's not to justify abortion, but you can't ignore the impact banning abortion would have.

1 - people wouldn't be properly cared for
2 - it would lead to us (the US) becoming a third world country
3 - our system would be over burdened
4 - and half a million children in fostercare or up for adoption.

Now, my point is this, what makes all of the hypothetical unaborted babies any different than the illegal immigrants that he wants to allow to become US citizens?

mikedevilsfan

05-24-2006, 10:36 PM

What follows in your post isn't really that nice, but let me address this, if I may. I think you make solid points (not that I agree with all of them), but then, instead of backing them up, you resort to sayings that are bound to cause hurt feelings. And to top it off, when one tries to tell you this, you play the part of the victim, saying that your political perspective is why people are "attacking" you. I've seen this pattern over and over here.

For example, instead of telling people who believe that trickle-down economics works, don't accuse them of burying their head in the sand (an exact phrase you used toward me a few weeks ago), but show numbers about why you are convinced that it doesn't work.

I'd love to engage you in a conversation about these things, but your tone was such a turn-off that I usually sit out.
I have never played the part of the victim. I could care less if you like the way I debate or not. Children are dying in mass numbers and you want to have tea and debate. Forget it.
Michael

mikedevilsfan

05-24-2006, 10:41 PM

Sure, but it is still not convincing. Where is your proof of all these things?

I'm more than willing to have a sensible debate/conversation about these things, but when you come here and just make a bunch of claims and accusations, especially when you do not provide proof to back them up, you just come off as a guy with an extreme bias.

Your position on these issues is based off of how you beleive the whole of the Bush Administration to be evil. So, again, I ask you, where is your proof?
My proof is you are blind.
Do you know who John NegroPonte or John Bolton are or what they did in the 80's? Have you watched the administration lie daily to the American people or do you watch Fox? Do you know that Bush said he gets a court order to look at phone records and that was a fargin' lie? He lied about WMD. He ignored Katrina. He is guilty of cronyism to a degree never before seen in this country. Many people including Republicans are saying we now live in a Fascist state. Do the home work your self, but be forwarned it's a full time job.
PS he stole both elections.
Michael

ObiShawn

05-24-2006, 10:43 PM

Do the home work your self, but be forwarned it's a full time job.The burden of proof is on you, the one making the accusations. When I do read a paper or see a news story, I see a lot of bias and a lot of twisting and omission of facts.

mikedevilsfan

05-24-2006, 10:45 PM

Perhaps it is because they don't view the war in Iraq as a money making scheme for Haliburton, but rather a crusade to remove a ruthless dictator that engaged in torture, murder, rape against his own people..

It is sad that there are those who in attempting to fight our troops use methods that we find disgusting... But to be honest, I find Husseins Rape Rooms, and his use of Plastics shredders to kill his politicial enemies just as disgusting...

I am sorry if you would rather see such a tyrant in power, free to torment his own people and finance suicide bombers against our Allies in Israel. If you belive that leaving Hussein in power was the Christian alternative to what the current administration has done then more power too you... but I greatly disagree...
Right that is what this war is about helping people. SO the torture rooms that have signs up that say "under new management" literally mean what?
Michael

SacredHeart

05-24-2006, 11:17 PM

I know what he was talking about, but I am trying to make a point. As for the subject of this thread . . . take your pick. It is basically about debating all things that are seemingly conservative.

The point I was leading to is this; Jesuslove, while saying that he wasn't trying to provide justification for all of the abortions, pretty much implied that it is still a good thing that all of the abortions have happened. His point being that . . .

1 - people wouldn't be properly cared for
2 - it would lead to us (the US) becoming a third world country
3 - our system would be over burdened
4 - and half a million children in fostercare or up for adoption.

Now, my point is this, what makes all of the hypothetical unaborted babies any different than the illegal immigrants that he wants to allow to become US citizens?
I'm waiting with bated breath for your reply, Jesuslove! Don't keep us in suspense! :D :D :D

Mr.Elwood

05-24-2006, 11:22 PM

bated breath
why do I find this so hysterically funny!!

Mr.Elwood

05-24-2006, 11:29 PM

could it be that you enjoy the thought of me being asphyxiated? death by liberal idealogy?
yeah.... that's probably it...:p

kiwisongbird

05-25-2006, 12:03 AM

EEEeeeeewwwWWWWW - oh - and I thought you guys were all really intelligent - 'normal' people - oh that's right talking about poop and diapers is normal - duh I forgot!!! :eek: :eek: :p

Kyle's dad

05-25-2006, 12:46 AM

My proof is you are blind.

:confused: :rolleyes:

Glad to see you're sticking to your pledge to be more respectful.

Do you know who John NegroPonte or John Bolton are or what they did in the 80's? .

Why don't you tell us??? And of course you'll provide data to support these claims right. Oh wait, why would you start doing that now?

He ignored Katrina. .

Nope, sorry it was Blanko and Nagin that dropped the ball there.

Many people including Republicans are saying we now live in a Fascist state..

Examples please. Examples of anyone other than Ted Kennedy, Margaret Cho or Al Franken who has said that we live in a fascist state.

he stole both elections.

Explain how he stole the last one. It was close and it came down to Ohio, but he won Ohio clearly. How did he steal it?? I mean c'mon, I don't think Ted Kennedy has even suggested this.

Jason

05-25-2006, 01:12 AM

Honestly, Mike, after "you have been duped" I stopped reading.

May I suggest reading How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

Mr.Elwood

05-25-2006, 01:14 AM

Honestly, Mike, after "you have been duped" I stopped reading.

May I suggest reading How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
WOOT!!!! hahahahahahahaha!!! We have a winner folks!! best line in this thread!!:D :p :D

Jason

05-25-2006, 01:29 AM

ObiShawn

05-25-2006, 05:11 AM

What follows in your post isn't really that nice, but let me address this, if I may. I think you make solid points (not that I agree with all of them), but then, instead of backing them up, you resort to sayings that are bound to cause hurt feelings. And to top it off, when one tries to tell you this, you play the part of the victim, saying that your political perspective is why people are "attacking" you. I've seen this pattern over and over here.

For example, instead of telling people who believe that trickle-down economics works, don't accuse them of burying their head in the sand (an exact phrase you used toward me a few weeks ago), but show numbers about why you are convinced that it doesn't work.

I'd love to engage you in a conversation about these things, but your tone was such a turn-off that I usually sit out.I have never played the part of the victim. I could care less if you like the way I debate or not. Children are dying in mass numbers and you want to have tea and debate. Forget it.
MichaelGood luck with that one Jason.

middletree

05-25-2006, 07:52 AM

I have never played the part of the victim. I could care less if you like the way I debate or not. Children are dying in mass numbers and you want to have tea and debate. Forget it.
Michael
And how is your assertion that a trickle-down believer (just to take one example) has his "head in the sand" going to keep one child from starving?

Look, I said what I said in response to your first post of this thread, in which you expressly said that you cared about how you were debating; how you were making your point come across. The fact that you have done a 180 and said you don't care to have a civilized debate reduces your credibility here, and is at the very root of the cause of why people respond to you the way they do.

middletree

05-25-2006, 07:53 AM

Good luck with that one Jason.
Who's Jason?

Yippy

05-25-2006, 09:25 AM

Who's Jason?
I think there are enough Jasons and James around here to keep everyone confused.:p

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:26 AM

I think there are enough Jasons and James around here to keep everyone confused.:p
Yup... I once considered signing all my posts Jason... but there are WAY to many of us here....

WeaselInYerFoot

05-25-2006, 10:21 AM

ObiShawn

05-25-2006, 05:49 PM

Who's Jason?I was talking to the Mod Jason and I quoted your post with Mike's reply to show him that his attempt probably wouldn't do any good since Mike blew off everything of quality you had to say by focusing on the one part that said he plays the victim.

So how many of these children have you saved during your non-tea-and-debate times?Excellent question!

EDIT -

I know what he was talking about, but I am trying to make a point. As for the subject of this thread . . . take your pick. It is basically about debating all things that are seemingly conservative.

The point I was leading to is this; Jesuslove, while saying that he wasn't trying to provide justification for all of the abortions, pretty much implied that it is still a good thing that all of the abortions have happened. His point being that . . .

If these 40 million babies were alive, there would probably be 50 million or more unwanted (meaning "not properly cared for") people in America right now. We'd be a third world country. We have half a million children in foster care or up for adoption in America now. Our system would be overburdened. That's not to justify abortion, but you can't ignore the impact banning abortion would have.

1 - people wouldn't be properly cared for
2 - it would lead to us (the US) becoming a third world country
3 - our system would be over burdened
4 - and half a million children in fostercare or up for adoption.

Now, my point is this, what makes all of the hypothetical unaborted babies any different than the illegal immigrants that he wants to allow to become US citizens?Still waiting on a reply . . . .

Jesuslove

05-25-2006, 07:32 PM

So how many of these children have you saved during your non-tea-and-debate times?
I saved one. Does that count?

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:19 PM

It's interesting that you mention Dobson here. I would really appreciate if you could substantiate that. While I have no doubt that he is a Bush supporter, I would never say he has gone the way of the dollar. He has let it be known repetatedly that he does not want donations to his minsitry to be taken away from people's tithes. On his radio and tv ministry he is constantly telling people that they should give to their home congregations first, and if they are willing to spare something after that than he is grateful, but if they can't the funds will come from somwhere else. He has said that he would rather see his ministry fold and local congregations continue than to see his ministry continue at the expense of local congregations. I know you weren't necessarily talking about how he funds his ministry but this attitude speaks to his character.
What good would an example do??? Ok you want one, how about Justice Sundayt 1 and 2 where he and bill frist piped in right wing propoganda 2 different sundays regarding the supreme court nominees. That was immoral an unethical. I used to be a fan of Dobson before he became a victim of the right wing machine.

I'm with you on Falwell and Robertson, but I really don't think Dobson has gone the way of the dollar.

So you must follow Sean Hannity around all the time??? He doesn't mention God in the sense of merely being a "God beleiver." He speaks very openly about his Catholic faith.
No, but I have heard him say the F word on his program and A-hole when he thought his mic was off. His tactics are also dispicable when it comes to debate.
Michael

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:25 PM

:confused: :rolleyes:

Glad to see you're sticking to your pledge to be more respectful.

Why don't you tell us??? And of course you'll provide data to support these claims right. Oh wait, why would you start doing that now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Negroponte
I'm sure this isn't a godd enough source though. No source would be good enough.

Nope, sorry it was Blanko and Nagin that dropped the ball there.

yeah that's why Bush was caught on tape saying that they were ready when they wern't. N.O. and L.A. didn't have the resources to help the people.

Examples please. Examples of anyone other than Ted Kennedy, Margaret Cho or Al Franken who has said that we live in a fascist state.

Republican retired Supreme court justice Sandra day O'Connor said we were in the beginnings of a dictatorship. She was apointed by Reagan.

Explain how he stole the last one. It was close and it came down to Ohio, but he won Ohio clearly. How did he steal it?? I mean c'mon, I don't think Ted Kennedy has even suggested this.
It's already been widly reported that there was massive voter fraud and intimidation, but because your guy won, you don't care.
Michael

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:32 PM

Mike, I decided to try to reword what you said in a nicer way. Let me know what you think:

Folks, as I've gotten older, I've realized that none of the political parties have the exclusive truth. I think that before we go to vote, we should carefully look at each candidate and prayerfully compare their views and their character with God's Word and our own personal convictions.

That's not too bad Jason, except I would add:
If you vote for a Republican -people will die.
THe Democrats aren't much better. Although there are some good one.
Michael

Jason

05-25-2006, 08:36 PM

That's not too bad Jason, except I would add:
If you vote for a Republican -people will die.
THe Democrats aren't much better. Although there are some good one.
Michael

And adding that is why people on this board will never think you speak nicely.

Good day.

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 08:37 PM

yeah that's why Bush was caught on tape saying that they were ready when they wern't. N.O. and L.A. didn't have the resources to help the people.

Everyone thought they were ready... You point?

Republican retired Supreme court justice Sandra day O'Connor said we were in the beginnings of a dictatorship. She was apointed by Reagan. Source Please, otherwise this goes into the MSU (Made Stuff Up) file...

It's already been widly reported that there was massive voter fraud and intimidation, but because your guy won, you don't care.
Michael
:rolleyes: Man Mike.... your posts fill up my MSU file

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:40 PM

And adding that is why people on this board will never think you speak nicely.

Good day.
How about you let me post a picture of an iraqi child who is missing her arms due to white phosepherus and we'll put this whole thing into perspective.
Michael

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:41 PM

Everyone thought they were ready... You point?

Source Please, otherwise this goes into the MSU (Made Stuff Up) file...

:rolleyes: Man Mike.... your posts fill up my MSU file

Ok Chewie I have posted it once, if I post it again will you consider what it says?
Michael

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:42 PM

Everyone thought they were ready... You point?

Source Please, otherwise this goes into the MSU (Made Stuff Up) file...

:rolleyes: Man Mike.... your posts fill up my MSU file
http://www.yuricareport.com/Law%20&%20Legal/OConnorWarnsOfDictatorshi p.html

Jason

05-25-2006, 08:44 PM

How about you let me post a picture of an iraqi child who is missing her arms due to white phosepherus and we'll put this whole thing into perspective.
Michael

How about I post pictures of millions of aborted babies? Either of our postings would be ludicrous.

Mike, go read Dale Carnegie's book and get back to us.

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 08:46 PM

How about I post pictures of millions of aborted babies? Either of our postings would be ludicrous.

Mike, go read Dale Carnegie's book and get back to us.
What good what that do? I am Pro Life, and sometimes showing those pictures is nessesary.
What happend to my thread about the satanic bible right wing connection?
Michael

Jason

05-25-2006, 08:53 PM

What good what that do? I am Pro Life, and sometimes showing those pictures is nessesary.
What happend to my thread about the satanic bible right wing connection?
Michael

It was moved until the other mods can look at it.

Mike, most dems and liberatarians (sp?) are pro-choice. And this is one reason many Christians vote Republican. I'm glad to hear you are pro-life. So do you find it difficult to find non-Republican candidates to vote for?

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 09:03 PM

It was moved until the other mods can look at it.

Mike, most dems and liberatarians (sp?) are pro-choice. And this is one reason many Christians vote Republican. I'm glad to hear you are pro-life. So do you find it difficult to find non-Republican candidates to vote for?

This is a myth propogated by the right wing bigtime.
Abortion is a wedge issue. What has Bush done about it?
There are plenty of Pro Life Dems out there believe me, just as there are plenty of pro choice republicans.
I don't find it hard to vote at all- I voted for Clinton twice and for Kerry. I also voted for Gore. He lost and children died.

Why do you need another moderator to look at the thread. Would you like me to send you a link regarding it. Just look up Ayn Rand on Wikipedia.
Michael

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:04 PM

Ok Chewie I have posted it once, if I post it again will you consider what it says?
Michael

I have never once seen you post legitimate citations for your accusations... That's not to say you havn't made them... but go ahead and post them and Let me look at them...

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 09:08 PM

I have never once seen you post legitimate citations for your accusations... That's not to say you havn't made them... but go ahead and post them and Let me look at them...

I just did go read it. Look above your post.
Michael

larryl

05-25-2006, 09:12 PM

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:15 PM

I just did go read it. Look above your post.
Michael

March 10, 2006

Katherine Yurica

Speaking at Georgetown University, former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor warned against the danger of a potential American dictatorship that begins with intimidation of the judiciary. Citing specific examples, without naming either Tom Delay or Sen. John Cornyn, both Repuplican critics of the courts and both from Texas, she stated their attacks pose "a direct threat to our constituional freedom." Freedom is not possible without an independent judiciary to protect individual rights she said. O'Connor warned against "nakedly partisan reasoning."

O'Connor's remarks were unusually forthright and forceful and were reported by NPR's Nina Totenberg. The former Justice warned that the path to dictatorship must be avoided. She said avoid the ends of dictatorship by avoiding the means." Interference with the judiciary, O'Connor said, was the path taken historically to form a dictatorship in other countries.

And this has to do with President Bush HOW??

I don't discount what she said, that freedom is not possible without an independent judiciary, but if she thinks that freedom IS possible With an out of control Judiciary that legislates from the bench (A Bench for life mind you) then her old age is catching up with her...

The fact is the Left have used the judicial system in this country to further their own agenda because they lacked power in the legislative branch to do it. They have brought lawsuits designed to remove every aspect of God from public life in our nation. Do you think that this Honors God? Do you think God is in heaven saying to Jesus, "Isn't that sweet, they took the Ten Comandments down?" or Jesus saying to God, "Hey Dad, look, the City of Los Angeles has to take the cross off there seal because of the ACLU... You know the cross that has been on that seal for over 100 years..."

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 09:16 PM

i heard most of o'connor's speech. mike is quoting her accurately.

not that you should take my word for it either, but i am usually on the polar opposite side from mike, so that should hold some weight....

Pretty heavy when a Supreme Court Justice says we are in the beginnngs of a dictatorship wouldn't you say? THere is plenty of others out there saying the same thing believe me.
Michael

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:19 PM

Pretty heavy when a Supreme Court Justice says we are in the beginnngs of a dictatorship wouldn't you say? THere is plenty of others out there saying the same thing believe me.
Michael
Do you honestly belive that in 2 years Bush will refuse to hand over the reigns to the newly elected president?

Anyone who belives he won't is as crazy as my Dad was when he said Bill Clinton was going to use Y2K to enact permanent martial law...

The Military is sworn to the Constitution, not to the President... If Bush has the gumption to do that, It would be no longer than a few short hours before he was starring down the barrel of an M-1 Abrams sitting outside the White House

larryl

05-25-2006, 09:21 PM

Do you honestly belive that in 2 years Bush will refuse to hand over the reigns to the newly elected president?

Anyone who belives he won't is as crazy as my Dad was when he said Bill Clinton was going to use Y2K to enact permanent martial law...

The Military is sworn to the Constitution, not to the President... If Bush has the gumption to do that, It would be no longer than a few short hours before he was starring down the barrel of an M-1 Abrams sitting outside the White House

she never implied that. she said if we keep letting right-wingers get their way with the courts, that is the 'direction we are heading' .....meaning down the road...not that bush would refuse to leave.

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:22 PM

she never implied that. she said if we keep letting right-wingers get their way with the courts, that is the 'direction we are heading' .....meaning down the road...not that bush would refuse to leave.

The problem is though, is that over the past 12 years, it has been leftwingers using the courts to get an unelected agenda through...

Courts are not for making law... and that has to stop...

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 09:25 PM

she never implied that. she said if we keep letting right-wingers get their way with the courts, that is the 'direction we are heading' .....meaning down the road...not that bush would refuse to leave.

Thats not what she said at all. She was speaking to the fact that the 3 branches of government are not equal anymore. The Executive branch has all the power now. Look at the NSA stuff. Bush is not gettting court approval to spy on Amricans and people like Chewie are letting him get away with it.
Michael

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:29 PM

Thats not what she said at all. She was speaking to the fact that the 3 branches of government are not equal anymore. The Executive branch has all the power now. Look at the NSA stuff. Bush is not gettting court approval to spy on Amricans and people like Chewie are letting him get away with it.
Michael

First, What is it exactly that you think the NSA is doing?

ESPECIALLY considering that ALL three Telecoms said to have handed over their records have said that they have not acted Illegally...

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6073179.html#correction

Verizon said Tuesday said that it was "not asked by NSA to provide, nor did Verizon provide, customer phone records." It went on to say that "none of Verizon's businesses--wireless or wireline--provided customer records or call data."

AT&T has not confirmed or denied it was approached by the NSA. The company said in a statement that it "does not allow wiretapping without a court order nor has it otherwise given customer information to law enforcement authorities or government agencies without legal authorization."

On Monday, BellSouth said it had conducted an internal review and confirmed that it had "not provided bulk customer calling records to the NSA."

(BTW That's just an example of how to cite a source in an argument)

mikedevilsfan

05-25-2006, 09:39 PM

First, What is it exactly that you think the NSA is doing?

ESPECIALLY considering that ALL three Telecoms said to have handed over their records have said that they have not acted Illegally...

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6073179.html#correction

(BTW That's just an example of how to cite a source in an argument)

They are cataloging every call made in the US when Bush said they wern't. THis is just the first step, because you obviously have no problem with this activity or Bush's lies about it.
Michael

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 09:40 PM

They are cataloging every call made in the US when Bush said they wern't. THis is just the first step, because you obviously have no problem with this activity or Bush's lies about it.
Michael

Ok and how does cataloging every call infringe on your rights?

larryl

05-25-2006, 09:57 PM

Ok and how does cataloging every call infringe on your rights?

weren't you the one saying your right to privacy supercedes even the 1st amendment?

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 10:08 PM

weren't you the one saying your right to privacy supercedes even the 1st amendment?
Your right... My right to privacy supercedes somone elses right to free speech..

However the laws are merky regarding privacy over public telephone lines... The NSA definatly can't evesdrop... and from what I can gather, they are basicly having computers play connect the dots with calling patterns... and then taking the results of that to Courts for warrants as needed...

Also from what I have heard they are working strickley off of Phone numbers there are no names or addresses atached...

If this is how the program works I am not sure it is a violation of one's privacy... How can a computer invade your privacy?

And don't necessarly take what I type as a defense of the program... I am simply trying to pull what Mike is trying to say outta him...

jwil59

05-25-2006, 10:11 PM

http://www.yuricareport.com/Law%20&%20Legal/OConnorWarnsOfDictatorshi p.html

Yeah that's the ticket. The record ( which others here aparantly don't know about) clearly shows that O'Conner has come down on the radical side of most decesions. Mike, are you aware that she cast the swing vote in the landmark eminent domain case. Thanks to the liberals and Sandra, the Government can take your home to build a shopping center and increase the tax base, not a school or hospital, but a shopping center. It has already happen thanks to Sandra and the libs. She also has come down on the side of unfettered and unabridged abortion in every case before the court. Posting her opinion of Bush means jack, minds well be posting quotes from Teddy.

You mentioned Bush has done nothing about abortion. Not true. He did sign the partial birth abortion ban that passed Congress. Under Clinton, the same bill passed the house and senate almost unanimously and he and hillary vetoed it.

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 10:13 PM

Yeah that's the ticket. The record ( which others here aparantly don't know about) clearly shows that O'Conner has come down on the radical side of most decesions. Mike, are you aware that she cast the swing vote in the landmark eminent domain case.

No she wasn't... That was David Souter (Bush '41 nominee) that was the swing vote in th eminent domain case...

jwil59

05-25-2006, 10:40 PM

No she wasn't... That was David Souter (Bush '41 nominee) that was the swing vote in th eminent domain case...

According to Anderson Cooper and the Supreme Court record I read, It was the 4 libs and O'Conner who voted for this. If not, I stand corrected

jwil59

05-25-2006, 10:44 PM

Upon further review, Cheewie is right. It was Ginsburg I was thinking about. Sorry and I stand corrected. Thanks Cheewie.

cheewiee

05-25-2006, 10:46 PM

According to Anderson Cooper and the Supreme Court record I read, It was the 4 libs and O'Conner who voted for this. If not, I stand corrected

Sorry, but According to this Fox News Article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160479,00.html
This CNN News Article
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/scotus.property/
This Washington Post Article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783_pf.html

Not only was Sandra Day O'Conner on the descenting side with Justices Rhenquest, Thomas, and Scallila, but she also authored the discent.

jwil59

05-25-2006, 10:58 PM

I looked it up again in the Supreme Court Records. You are right.

Kyle's dad

05-26-2006, 12:46 AM

What good would an example do??? Ok you want one, how about Justice Sundayt 1 and 2 where he and bill frist piped in right wing propoganda 2 different sundays regarding the supreme court nominees. That was immoral an unethical. I used to be a fan of Dobson before he became a victim of the right wing machine.

Well if he did that then it is wrong but it's not surprising. Like I said I never doubted that he was a Bush supporter, I just wouldn't put him in the same category as Falwell and Robertson and I still wouldn't say he's gone for the money. But thanks for the example anyway.

No, but I have heard him say the F word on his program and A-hole when he thought his mic was off. His tactics are also dispicable when it comes to debate.
Michael

Well if that's really what you heard, not that I think you're lying but I think you could be mistaken. I think you maybe heard him say something and it was cut off before he finished saying it andpartly because you clealrly don't have a high opinion of him as it is, you assumed that he was saying the F-word and A-hole.

But if it is true, it just shows that he got careless. It hardly proves that he is being insincere when he talks of his faith.

Mr.Elwood

05-26-2006, 12:57 AM

Sorry, but According to this Fox News Article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160479,00.html
This CNN News Article
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/scotus.property/
This Washington Post Article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062300783_pf.html

Not only was Sandra Day O'Conner on the descenting side with Justices Rhenquest, Thomas, and Scallila, but she also authored the discent.
Nice job….

This is what people are asking for when the rhetoric starts flying. Post some links from a fairly trustable source to make your arguments. There is more than enough opinions and spittle around here to fill an outhouse. Please try to be more diligent when posting rants about specific actions taken by the target of you criticism…
thanks...

Kyle's dad

05-26-2006, 01:06 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Negroponte
I'm sure this isn't a godd enough source though. No source would be good enough.

No it's fine and thanks for providing the link. I honestly didn't know what you were referring to. I'd heard his name before and I knew he was involved in the Contra scandal but I didn't know if you were talking about something else.

I am guessing you were also referring to the opinions of some people had that he ran death squads.

yeah that's why Bush was caught on tape saying that they were ready when they wern't. N.O. and L.A. didn't have the resources to help the people..

Whats so scandlaous about that?? I remember someone from the whitehouse saying that, as far as they knew, they were ready the day before Katrina. This is nothing they are hiding from. Michael Brown said that Bush called Blanko and Nagin and asked him if they wanted to start evacuating and they said no. Thats the main reason why Bush thought they were ready because Blanko and Nagin said they were. It was their call.

Republican retired Supreme court justice Sandra day O'Connor said we were in the beginnings of a dictatorship. She was apointed by Reagan...

I read your little link and it's secondhand info and whats there has her warning against the danger of a potential American dictatorship. There is a big difference between that and saying that we are in the beginnings of dictatorship. And what I asked for was someone saying that we are in a fascist state.

It's already been widly reported that there was massive voter fraud and intimidation, but because your guy won, you don't care.

No, if there really was voter fraud and intimidation then I care, but hey thanks for thinking you can read my mind. You simply saying that it was widely reported hardly proves anything. I voted for Bush, but I would hardly say he's my guy. I was really not pleased with any of the choices we had in the last election. I've got no problem with your opinion, I just don't like how you can't express yourself without insulting people.