I'm Back...

[mikedevilsfan]

We got the database cataloging 200 million Americans (every adult) and our Godly Christian President and his thugs are continuously lying to us on a daily basis. Thankfully the “Devine Strake” bomb in Nevada has been postponed.
The tax breaks for the rich were renewed and the poor lose again.
My question is when are you going to wake up to the truth? How many people have to be killed or tortured before you say enough is enough? How much of our freedom must be lost before you start to worry?
Michael

[ObiShawn]

The very manner in which you bring up this subject, especially without links to back up your accuasations (as per usual) has "troll" written all over it, not to mention the only time you post is when you want to stir the pot.

Arguing with you isn't worth the time.

[mikedevilsfan]

The very manner in which you bring up this subject, especially without links to back up your accuasations (as per usual) has "troll" written all over it, not to mention the only time you post is when you want to stir the pot.

Arguing with you isn't worth the time.

Maybe you need to pay some more attention to the world around you. Do you live in a cave. Call me a troll if you wish, but I hope a sleeping giant is waking in this country. The pot needs stirred.
Wake up before it's too late.
Michael

[wbthornton]

It continues to amaze me how folks continually beat this drum about "tax breaks for the rich." Let me ask a question? Do the poor pay income taxes? The obvious answer is no. It has been proven over and over and over again that tax breaks, at all levels benefit the entire economy. Take a look at the assessment of new jobs created for this year alone. Take a look at 4.7% unemployment. (An unemployment rate of less than 5% means that those who WANT to work are working.)

Which class or classes create the jobs in this country? That would be the rich and the middle class. Who benefits as a result? Everybody, including those who are poor that WANT to work.

[mikedevilsfan]

It continues to amaze me how folks continually beat this drum about "tax breaks for the rich." Let me ask a question? Do the poor pay income taxes? The obvious answer is no. It has been proven over and over and over again that tax breaks, at all levels benefit the entire economy. Take a look at the assessment of new jobs created for this year alone. Take a look at 4.7% unemployment. (An unemployment rate of less than 5% means that those who WANT to work are working.)

Which class or classes create the jobs in this country? That would be the rich and the middle class. Who benefits as a result? Everybody, including those who are poor that WANT to work.

That's a lie from the pit of hell.
The money of the rich doesn't trickle down and that has been proven again and again.
Michael

[Debbie]

Hi Michael,

Been a while, glad to see your back.

Since you are going to start a new thread, that will return to the same discussion as in past...I would like for your statements to have fact, "links to" and anything else you feel that is necessary to confirm your statements.

This will provide for a good debate/discussion.

[mikedevilsfan]

Hi Michael,

Been a while, glad to see your back.

Since you are going to start a new thread, that will return to the same discussion as in past...I would like for your statements to have fact, "links to" and anything else you feel that is necessary to confirm your statements.

This will provide for a good debate/discussion.
What would you like me to prove? That the NSA is spying on Americans? Just open a newspaper.
Michael

[Debbie]

That's a lie from the pit of hell.
The money of the rich doesn't trickle down and that has been proven again and again.
Michael



What exactly do you want us to do?

[Debbie]

What would you like me to prove? That the NSA is spying on Americans? Just open a newspaper.
Michael

That is not what you indicated in your 1st statement. You were talking about taxes, the bomb practices and people being tortured. I would like for you to be clear and if you want change, other than asking people to open their eyes, show them this truth that you talk about.

[middletree]

The tax breaks for the rich were renewed and the poor lose again. My question is when are you going to wake up to the truth? How many people have to be killed or tortured before you say enough is enough? How much of our freedom must be lost before you start to worry?
Michael

Who's getting tortured by tax breaks?

[mikedevilsfan]

What exactly do you want us to do?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10488458/

Stand up and be counted! Say it out loud- enough is enough. Jesus is not a liar, he is not a torturer, he is not an imperialist warmonger. _WE_ not the secular Humanists are the ones who should be promoting peace.
Gather round and start making noise= Iraqis need Jesus not bombs.
Stop protecting the wolves who are devouring in the name of Christ when the fruit is rotton.
Tell the world "not in my name" not in my Lord's name.
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

Who's getting tortured by tax breaks?
I was speaking of the torture centers all around the world.
But there are many Americans trying to live on an unlivable wage. I guess it's torture to watch your child starving.
Michael

[wbthornton]

That's a lie from the pit of hell.
The money of the rich doesn't trickle down and that has been proven again and again.
MichaelThe real lie is that the rich are uncaring, cold-hearted so-and-so's that don't give a rip about anyone but themselves.

Michael, that's economics, plain and simple. If you don't have the resources to invest or start a business, you certainly can't. Only those with means can. And if it wasn't for those with the means, there wouldn't be any jobs.

[larryl]

we don't need tax breaks for anyone right now.

never, in US history, has there been a tax cut in a time of war.

there has been rationing, sacrificing....no tax cuts. why are we doing it now? why would we?

trillions in debt, and people want to lower taxes....

[jwil59]

My my aren't we all a little testy this evening.

Mike's post looks like something one might hear at a Dixie Chicks show, but then again, I like their music so what can I say.

Mike has a point about the employment rate. The jobs created have been basically low paying with not much future. This isn't what Mr Regan intended when he PROVED the trickle down economic theory to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. What trickle down has created is a sense of GREED in this nation unmatched by any period of our history. Mike's categorization of the President's Administration as "thugs" does more to hurt his point than anything else he could possibly say.

Brian is also right in that it is the upper class that provides a living for the less fortunate. My opinion is that they have simply gotten too greedy and unwilling to "give back" to the ones and the nation that put em' on that pedestal to begin with.

[jwil59]

The real lie is that the rich are uncaring, cold-hearted so-and-so's that don't give a rip about anyone but themselves.

Michael, that's economics, plain and simple. If you don't have the resources to invest or start a business, you certainly can't. Only those with means can. And if it wasn't for those with the means, there wouldn't be any jobs.


The Government will be happy to issue you a small business loan with low intrest, it's there for the taking.

[mikedevilsfan]

The real lie is that the rich are uncaring, cold-hearted so-and-so's that don't give a rip about anyone but themselves.

Michael, that's economics, plain and simple. If you don't have the resources to invest or start a business, you certainly can't. Only those with means can. And if it wasn't for those with the means, there wouldn't be any jobs.

Why don't we consult the Bible on the heart of the rich? And why is it so hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. The bigger question is why do so called believers spend all their time defending the wealthy and ignoring the poor?
Michael

[jwil59]

we don't need tax breaks for anyone right now.

never, in US history, has there been a tax cut in a time of war.

there has been rationing, sacrificing....no tax cuts. why are we doing it now? why would we?

trillions in debt, and people want to lower taxes....


As conservative as I am, I would tend to agree on this one.

[wbthornton]

Instead of impugning tax cuts, we should be blasting congress for not cutting spending. In the 8 years of Reagan, tax recieipts soared. It's all on record for anyone to see. The resulting deficits were due to INCREASED spending. There is a direct corelation between the two.

[middletree]

But there are many Americans trying to live on an unlivable wage. I guess it's torture to watch your child starving.
MichaelOf course it is. Anyone who lets his child starve, when there are so many resources in our country which will prevent that, should be prosecuted.

Between the govt organizations and non-profits and charities out there, anyone who lets his child starve is not doing his job as a parent. And that's the parent's fault, not W's. They have a responsibility to get help when needed, and to get a better-paying job. (And yes, there are good-paying jobs out there for anyone able-bodied who's willing to do the work)

[mikedevilsfan]

My my aren't we all a little testy this evening.

Mike's post looks like something one might hear at a Dixie Chicks show, but then again, I like their music so what can I say.

Mike has a point about the employment rate. The jobs created have been basically low paying with not much future. This isn't what Mr Regan intended when he PROVED the trickle down economic theory to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. What trickle down has created is a sense of GREED in this nation unmatched by any period of our history. Mike's categorization of the President's Administration as "thugs" does more to hurt his point than anything else he could possibly say.

Brian is also right in that it is the upper class that provides a living for the less fortunate. My opinion is that they have simply gotten too greedy and unwilling to "give back" to the ones and the nation that put em' on that pedestal to begin with.

Well thugs is a harsh term, but the truth hurts. Negroponte and his "death squad" past makes him not a thug per say, but rather a murderer. Same with John Bolton another killer. So sorry about being so lite with the lingo.
The time for dancing around issues is over. Let the truth be told. This admnistration is filled with killers thieves and warmongers-period. It's up to you to decide whether you want to support them or not.
This doesn't nessesarliy mean becoming a Socialist like myself. Maybe it's just writing your president or represenitive and saying- look I am tired of the death already, stop doing it in my name.
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

Of course it is. Anyone who lets his child starve, when there are so many resources in our country which will prevent that, should be prosecuted.

Between the govt organizations and non-profits and charities out there, anyone who lets his child starve is not doing his job as a parent. And that's the parent's fault, not W's. They have a responsibility to get help when needed, and to get a better-paying job. (And yes, there are good-paying jobs out there for anyone able-bodied who's willing to do the work)

Oh I love the personal responsibility argument.
Hey Mr. Johnson you can't have that Cancer treatementbecause YOU didn't save up for it.
Michael

[Yippy]

The bigger question is why do so called believers spend all their time defending the wealthy and ignoring the poor?
Michael
Who's spending all their time defending the wealthy and ignoring the poor? You could NEVER know who's ignoring the poor. And I personally know a lot of wealthy people who are extremely generous. Where do you get your info?

[ObiShawn]

you to decide whether you want to support them or not.Then why are you trying to change our minds? Why do you waste your time with topics like these?

[mikedevilsfan]

Who's spending all their time defending the wealthy and ignoring the poor? You could NEVER know who's ignoring the poor. And I personally know a lot of wealthy people who are extremely generous. Where do you get your info?

Part of my info comes from polls, part comes from talking to folks like you and your ilk on the board who theorize about how the Republicans are doing such a great job while people are dying. Part of it comes from the cheerleading that goes on in the churches I have been to. Part comes from watching Christians tell beggars to get jobs etc. And part come from the scripture that is in Matthew that talks about all the Christians who will be shocked when they are called goats instead of sheep.
Michael

[wbthornton]

Why don't we consult the Bible on the heart of the rich? And why is it so hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. The bigger question is why do so called believers spend all their time defending the wealthy and ignoring the poor?
Michael
The "spiritual kingdom" and the "physical kingdom" are two different things. Personally, my worldview is one that God, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are part of everything I do, not just my Sunday go-to-church world. That isn't so for much of the church and isn't true at all of the world. However, we live in the "physical world" where money is the currency used. We co-exist with that which we consider evil, in this world. To say that all who are rich are ungodly.....no way.

As for the poor. The poor in this country have more than the poor anywhere else in the world. It might be shocking, but some people are poor because of their own "poor" choices. I know people personally that are almost always broke because they spend their money buying booze, cigarettes and drugs. How responsible is that? Should people continue bailing them out? No way.

[mikedevilsfan]

Then why are you trying to change our minds? Why do you waste your time with topics like these?

I guess because my conscience is bothering me. There is a 100 lb elephant in the room and everyone is walking around it. If it were trivial that would be one thing, but Biblically it is deadly serious. When you give to the poor, take care of the poor etc. you do it unto Christ.
Christ is worth standing up for.
Michael

[larryl]

Oh I love the personal responsibility argument.
Hey Mr. Johnson you can't have that Cancer treatementbecause YOU didn't save up for it.
Michael


and you'd rather see the gov't just bail people out who are too irresponsible to plan ahead.....or plan at all...

[wbthornton]

Part of my info comes from pollsMost polling data is a bunch of non-sense. The media has been telling us for months how bad Bush is, how bad the economy is, how everything is bad, bad, bad. Then when pollsters ask what we think about Bush, the economy, etc. we reply that it's bad. Hmmmm....I wonder why that is?

[larryl]

If it were trivial that would be one thing, but Biblically it is deadly serious. When you give to the poor, take care of the poor etc. you do it unto Christ.
Christ is worth standing up for.
Michael


the church is called to do this, not the government.

[mikedevilsfan]

The "spiritual kingdom" and the "physical kingdom" are two different things. Personally, my worldview is one that God, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are part of everything I do, not just my Sunday go-to-church world. That isn't so for much of the church and isn't true at all of the world. However, we live in the "physical world" where money is the currency used. We co-exist with that which we consider evil, in this world. To say that all who are rich are ungodly.....no way.

As for the poor. The poor in this country have more than the poor anywhere else in the world. It might be shocking, but some people are poor because of their own "poor" choices. I know people personally that are almost always broke because they spend their money buying booze, cigarettes and drugs. How responsible is that? Should people continue bailing them out? No way.

A. it's not for you to stand in judgement of what poor people buy. Keep up that mentality and you will be living in a cardboard box your self according to the Judge not lest be judged scripture states.
B. You are right- 1/4 of the world makes less than a dollar a day. And 1/4 makes less than 2 dollars a day. You are right about that. We pay our baseball players millions of dollars as children starve and where does the Church stand on this issue? They don't. Most just defend tax cuts etc.
Michael

[ObiShawn]

I guess because my conscience is bothering me. Well, if it is up to us to choose who we want to support, why dont' you let our own consciences convicts us, as you let yours convict you?

When you give to the poor, take care of the poor etc. you do it unto Christ.
Christ is worth standing up for.Where's this coming from? I'm talking about your futile effort to change our minds and you want to change the subject to giving? :rolleyes:

[mikedevilsfan]

and you'd rather see the gov't just bail people out who are too irresponsible to plan ahead.....or plan at all...

Like I said, I would be very, very careful talking like that or you may wind up with nothing but a reminder of this post. Try and remember that these are children of God you are speking of and it's not yours to spend.
Michael

[SacredHeart]

you tell us that we cannot stand in judgment of what poor people buy and yet you can stand in judgment of the rich? Hmm....methinks there's a bit of a double-standard here.

[larryl]

A. it's not for you to stand in judgement of what poor people buy. Keep up that mentality and you will be living in a cardboard box your self according to the Judge not lest be judged scripture states.


if they want to use money given to them by me...either personally, or through some gov't hand-out program, then it IS for me to say they should be held accountable for where they spent it.

[larryl]

Like I said, I would be very, very careful talking like that or you may wind up with nothing but a reminder of this post. Try and remember that these are children of God you are speking of and it's not yours to spend.
Michael


your reply did not address my post in the least.

you have no idea of my economic situation, so don't pretend to be able to make assumptions about me, or my money.

[mikedevilsfan]

you tell us that we cannot stand in judgment of what poor people buy and yet you can stand in judgment of the rich? Hmm....methinks there's a bit of a double-standard here.

I haven't made any reference to the rich other than the scripture- take thatup with God. I just wonder why people (espescially Christians) are so quick to defend those who do not need defending, and quick to abandon those who need us.????
Michael

[Yippy]

Part of my info comes from polls, part comes from talking to folks like you and your ilk on the board who theorize about how the Republicans are doing such a great job while people are dying.
Well, you obviously haven't been paying close attention, and maybe your bias is clouding your judgement, but I personally am a middle of the roader. Not to mention, that there are many here who have differing opinions regardless of political party and differing opinions within political parties. Name calling and assuming doesn't teach anybody anything. People died all the time under the Democrats. The world existed long before the Democrats came along to save the day. Our loyalty should be to the Lord Jesus Christ and not to any politcal party. Remember that when the woman "wasted" her expensive perfume on the Lord and the disciples rebuked her because it could have been sold and the money given to the poor, Jesus told them that they will have the poor with them always. Our first priority should be worshipping our Lord extravagantly...
Part of it comes from the cheerleading that goes on in the churches I have been to. Part comes from watching Christians tell beggars to get jobs etc.
You might want to broaden your horizons and experience more of the body of Christ. You'd be surprised at how benevolent it is. We just don't toot our horns. Our right hand doesn't know what the left is doing.:)
And part come from the scripture that is in Matthew that talks about all the Christians who will be shocked when they are called goats instead of sheep.
Michael
Or those who said, "Lord, Lord, I did this for you and that for you and this in your name and that in your name." (my paraphrase) That should humble us right on the spot and keep us from being angry with one another.:)

[mikedevilsfan]

if they want to use money given to them by me...either personally, or through some gov't hand-out program, then it IS for me to say they should be held accountable for where they spent it.

Always about YOU, YOU, YOU and YOUR money isn't it.
Can you give me a scripture to back this up?
Michael

[ObiShawn]

Can you give me a scripture to back this up?
MichaelCan you give scripture to back up any of the lunacy you've been ranting and raving about?

[larryl]

Always about YOU, YOU, YOU and YOUR money isn't it.
Can you give me a scripture to back this up?
Michael


my point mike, is the church should handle these things, not the gov't. i have been known, on many occasions to buy food for people in need, or such things......i will not, however, give them $5 to go buy a 40oz beer...i do not believe that is being a good steward of what God has given me.

can you give me a scripture to back-up gov't handouts?

[mikedevilsfan]

Well, you obviously haven't been paying close attention, and maybe your bias is clouding your judgement, but I personally am a middle of the roader. Not to mention, that there are many here who have differing opinions regardless of political party and differing opinions within political parties. Name calling and assuming doesn't teach anybody anything. People died all the time under the Democrats. The world existed long before the Democrats came along to save the day. Our loyalty should be to the Lord Jesus Christ and not to any politcal party.
My loyalty is always to Christ first. I agree.


You might want to broaden your horizons and experience more of the body of Christ. You'd be surprised at how benevolent it is. We just don't toot our horns. Our right hand doesn't know what the left is doing.:)

My wife and I had to switch to a non Charasmatic denomination becuse all the Churches down here are Republican havens. We would settle for a Church that didn't bring up politics at all. Don't you think that a couple having trouble finding a non Conservative church is a problem?

Or those who said, "Lord, Lord, I did this for you and that for you and this in your name and that in your name." (my paraphrase) That should humble us right on the spot and keep us from being angry with one another.:)

Well if the scripture was about arguing on a message board I would probably be freaked out, but it's not. It's about Christians who ignore the poor and suffering in the world. It stinks that so much of the body (or so-called body) is so resistant to this scripture.
Michael

[wbthornton]

A. it's not for you to stand in judgement of what poor people buy. Keep up that mentality and you will be living in a cardboard box your self according to the Judge not lest be judged scripture states.I can stand in judgement of behavior like that. When someone chooses to buy drugs, alcohol or cigarettes instead of food or basic necessities.....it's poor stewardship of what they have. If someone chooses to "waste" their money, it's not my responsibility to "fix" their problem.

B. You are right- 1/4 of the world makes less than a dollar a day. And 1/4 makes less than 2 dollars a day. You are right about that. We pay our baseball players millions of dollars as children starve and where does the Church stand on this issue? They don't. Most just defend tax cuts etc.
MichaelMike, baseball players in the this country making millions of dollars has nothing to do with those around the world who are making less than $2 a day. In many cases there are perfectly logical reasons that the people have nothing. Typically it's because of despotic governments. Dare I say communist/socialist? There hasn't been one.....not one......socialist economy that has benefit it's citizens. The benefits goes to those who own everything, the government.

[mikedevilsfan]

my point mike, is the church should handle these things, not the gov't. i have been known, on many occasions to buy food for people in need, or such things......i will not, however, give them $5 to go buy a 40oz beer...i do not believe that is being a good steward of what God has given me.

can you give me a scripture to back-up gov't handouts?

I have heard this from pastor after pastor. Usually in Churches that have lincoln town cars filling up the lot. Here is the deal we DON'T do it.
Do me a favor and listen to this:
http://www.tonycampolo.org/media.php
Listen to the sermon called "The Church: God's Instrument for Changing the World" you will understand where I am coming from.
Michael

[ObiShawn]

Well if the scripture was about arguing on a message board I would probably be freaked out, but it's not. It's about Christians who ignore the poor and suffering in the world. It stinks that so much of the body (or so-called body) is so resistant to this scripture.
Michael

That passage says absolutely nothing about ignoring the poor or suffering, but it does mention people that prophesied, cast out devils (no pun intended) and did many wonderful works. (Matthew 7:22) Good job taking scripture out of context, mike.

[larryl]

you make a lot of generalizations.

they don't change the fact that Christ and the apostles never said....'church, support the poor and the widows, and if you don't, insist that the gov't do it'

[mikedevilsfan]

I can stand in judgement of behavior like that. When someone chooses to buy drugs, alcohol or cigarettes instead of food or basic necessities.....it's poor stewardship of what they have. If someone chooses to "waste" their money, it's not my responsibility to "fix" their problem.

This just shows where your heart is at. I speak of the homeless and your mind goes to beer and cigarettes. Let me clue you in on something, give from your heart and God will honor that no matter what they do with the money. But try and see where they are at. You ever been hungry? Ever been homeless?


Mike, baseball players in the this country making millions of dollars has nothing to do with those around the world who are making less than $2 a day. In many cases there are perfectly logical reasons that the people have nothing. Typically it's because of despotic governments. Dare I say communist/socialist? There hasn't been one.....not one......socialist economy that has benefit it's citizens. The benefits goes to those who own everything, the government.

So if every Christian in this country started a Christian Socialist party and I was the president and -
1. Stopped spending billions on a lying war (does this bother you?)
2. Immediatly taxed corporations and instituted a living wage.
3. Put money in to feeding and clothing the poor.
This wouldn't make a change. We could feed the poor in this country by just taxing the rich and corps.
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

you make a lot of generalizations.

they don't change the fact that Christ and the apostles never said....'church, support the poor and the widows, and if you don't, insist that the gov't do it'

No that's where the intelect comes in. That's where give to Ceaser comes in. This is why govt. is an institution made by God. Otherwise we would have a bunch of selfish greedy people running around and chaos.
Michael

[Yippy]

My wife and I had to switch to a non Charasmatic denomination becuse all the Churches down here are Republican havens. We would settle for a Church that didn't bring up politics at all. Don't you think that a couple having trouble finding a non Conservative church is a problem?
THere is no shortage of non-conservative churches here. Our church never brings up politics. During the last presidential election, we had Bush and Kerry supporters. I live and work in an area that is extremely liberal. I have a problem with extremists on both sides.

Well if the scripture was about arguing on a message board I would probably be freaked out, but it's not.
You might want to re-read Romans 14 & 15...

Also, the Church isn't about American politics...

[mikedevilsfan]

you make a lot of generalizations.

they don't change the fact that Christ and the apostles never said....'church, support the poor and the widows, and if you don't, insist that the gov't do it'

By the way the apostles shared everything. They were more to the left than I am.
Michael

[SmileyFreak1981]

I think it's perfectly fine to want to withhold monetary assistance for someone who's spending tons of money on drugs, alcohol, etc. Those aren't necessities for living. Is that "judgmental" of me? No. I don't think it is. We don't help people by enabling them to continue in destructive behavior. We hurt them.

[Yippy]

By the way the apostles shared everything.
THat's another thread entirely. The circumstances and time they were living in had a lot to do with that..

[mikedevilsfan]

THere is no shortage of non-conservative churches here. Our church never brings up politics. During the last presidential election, we had Bush and Kerry supporters. I live and work in an area that is extremely liberal. I have a problem with extremists on both sides.


You might want to re-read Romans 14 & 15...

Also, the Church isn't about American politics...

well I agree with that for sure. But, Christians in other cultures don't seem to have the same problem we do. In other parts of the world the poor is much more a priority for Christians than here in the USA. My theory for this is because we are so extremely capitalistic here. Mammon rules our country.
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

THat's another thread entirely. The circumstances and time they were living in had a lot to do with that..

No it didn't. When Jesus said sell everything and follow me he meant it. It was about where their heart was at--about the gospel.
Michael

[larryl]

By the way the apostles shared everything. They were more to the left than I am.
Michael


so they helped each other? and depended on the church to help them?

you mean they didn't get welfare?

i have been unemployed. i have been beyond broke. i depended on my church family, and my blood family to help me. they respected my feelings about gov't hand-outs, and understood when i refused to accept any such monies.....and they fed me, put gas in my car, gave me odd jobs to do to earn money......that's how it is supposed to be. that's why when i say the church should handle this, i know it can happen.

[ObiShawn]

I guess because my conscience is bothering me. Well, if it is up to us to choose who we want to support, why dont' you let our own consciences convicts us, as you let yours convict you?

When you give to the poor, take care of the poor etc. you do it unto Christ.
Christ is worth standing up for.Where's this coming from? I'm talking about your futile effort to change our minds and you want to change the subject to giving? :rolleyes:

[mikedevilsfan]

I think it's perfectly fine to want to withhold monetary assistance for someone who's spending tons of money on drugs, alcohol, etc. Those aren't necessities for living. Is that "judgmental" of me? No. I don't think it is. We don't help people by enabling them to continue in destructive behavior. We hurt them.

Show me a scripture that back this line of thinkin up and I'll agree. For now I'll stick with "give to everyone who begs of you"
Michael

[Yippy]

well I agree with that for sure. But, Christians in other cultures don't seem to have the same problem we do. In other parts of the world the poor is much more a priority for Christians than here in the USA. My theory for this is because we are so extremely capitalistic here. Mammon rules our country.
Michael
Christians in other countries can be killed for their faith. They don't have time to reply to threads on message boards. They're lucky if they have a Bible nearby. We could probably use a good time of persecution here. That'd probably separate the sheep from the goats in a hurry. We in America have our own challenges. I think wealth and entertainment are harder on the Christian life than persecution. Money does rule here. Our job as Christians is to be wise stewards of what God gives us.

[larryl]

Show me a scripture that back this line of thinkin up and I'll agree. For now I'll stick with "give to everyone who begs of you"
Michael


so if i tell you i spent my check at the bar, and now i need $10 for a 12 pack, i can expect you to give it to me?

[ObiShawn]

Show me a scripture that back this line of thinkin up and I'll agree. For now I'll stick with "give to everyone who begs of you"
MichaelHere you are again demanding people show you scriptures and yet you have provided none. And the only one you allude to you got completely wrong. Show some scriptures yourself.

[mikedevilsfan]

so they helped each other? and depended on the church to help them?

you mean they didn't get welfare?

i have been unemployed. i have been beyond broke. i depended on my church family, and my blood family to help me. they respected my feelings about gov't hand-outs, and understood when i refused to accept any such monies.....and they fed me, put gas in my car, gave me odd jobs to do to earn money......that's how it is supposed to be. that's why when i say the church should handle this, i know it can happen.

Well be glad you had a family and were able to refuse help. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had that?
Michael

[ObiShawn]

Well be glad you had a family and were able to refuse help. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had that?
Michael

You didnt' answer his question -


so they helped each other? and depended on the church to help them?

you mean they didn't get welfare?

[larryl]

Well be glad you had a family and were able to refuse help. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had that?
Michael


my church family did as much as anyone.......my family wasn't able to totally support me.

yes, it would be wonderful if everyone were in church....

[mikedevilsfan]

so if i tell you i spent my check at the bar, and now i need $10 for a 12 pack, i can expect you to give it to me?
If you told me that, I would ask you if you had an addiction and try and pray with you and direct you to somewhere to help. I would probably buy you a sandwich or whatever I could do.
How did this discussion derail from the poor to those who are alcoholics.
Michael

[wbthornton]

This just shows where your heart is at. I speak of the homeless and your mind goes to beer and cigarettes. Let me clue you in on something, give from your heart and God will honor that no matter what they do with the money. But try and see where they are at. You ever been hungry? Ever been homeless?Now your judging my heart? You have no idea what my wife and I do with our finances. He does honor our giving. But, I will not knowingly give my money to someone who will use to it to buy alcohol, cigarettes or drugs. I certainly don't think God will bless that. It's poor stewardship. There are many, many people that are homeless tonight because they are drug users and because they are alcoholics.



So if every Christian in this country started a Christian Socialist party and I was the president and -
1. Stopped spending billions on a lying war (does this bother you?)
2. Immediatly taxed corporations and instituted a living wage.
3. Put money in to feeding and clothing the poor.
This wouldn't make a change. We could feed the poor in this country by just taxing the rich and corps.
MichaelHow about we stop paying for bridges that go to know where too? Or for office buildings full of steel and glass that will never be occupied?

We tax the rich and corporations now!!! Again, I ask the question "Who pays taxes in this country? The poor? No way. The rich pay the largest portion of taxes by far. The poor don't pay income taxes. That's a fact.

I've not got the time to follow this line through, but do you know what would happen if we raised the minimum wage just $1? Millions of jobs would cease to exist. Again, that's simple economics. Those who would be most hurt by that are teenagers looking for summer work, those who are in transition from one job to another, and those who are not skilled enough to work anywhere but low paying, service industry jobs. In the end, it would hurt the people the most, who it was intended to help. It might be good hearted, but it just doesn't jive with reality.

[larryl]

If you told me that, I would ask you if you had an addiction and try and pray with you and direct you to somewhere to help. I would probably buy you a sandwich or whatever I could do.
How did this discussion derail from the poor to those who are alcoholics.
Michael


you would be in charge of where the money went? it's not your money. what gives you the right to do that? i didn't ask for food...i asked for beer.

it got derailed there because you said we have no right to say where people spend the money we give them.

[mikedevilsfan]

Here you are again demanding people show you scriptures and yet you have provided none. And the only one you allude to you got completely wrong. Show some scriptures yourself.

Show some scriptures? How much time you got?
Do me a favor ObiShawn, just for laughs.
Pick a gospel, any gospel. Take a highliter and start at the begining and everytime Jesus helps the poor, or heals someone or feeds someone (before he preaches to them) underline it. By the time you get finished go back and look at what is highlited. It will shock you.
Then ask yourself, why would God go through so much trouble to include all this information if it wasn't important.
Then ask yourself: why is this only preached about on a rare occasion in the evangelical Church?
Then ask yourself what the root of all evil is and -- make the connection.
Michael

[wbthornton]

well I agree with that for sure. But, Christians in other cultures don't seem to have the same problem we do. In other parts of the world the poor is much more a priority for Christians than here in the USA. My theory for this is because we are so extremely capitalistic here. Mammon rules our country.
Michael
Name for me one country that is predominately poor that can help more than our capitalistic society can. We give literally tons of dollars to other countries.

[SmileyFreak1981]

Show me a scripture that back this line of thinkin up and I'll agree. For now I'll stick with "give to everyone who begs of you"
Michael
So, if some skinny, strung out dude came up to you, askin' if he could have some money...like, maybe he says he needs it for his kid or something...but he's obviously going through withdrawls, and you know he's just gonna go buy some smack and get his fix...you'd still give him the money?

Give me your reasoning in chapter and verse form, so I can look it up in context...because never have I read that Jesus commanded us to never say no to people...

[mikedevilsfan]

you would be in charge of where the money went? it's not your money. what gives you the right to do that? i didn't ask for food...i asked for beer.

it got derailed there because you said we have no right to say where people spend the money we give them.

I am saying that Biblically speaking- Christ says "when you do it to the least of these, you do it unto me" his words not mine.

And i don't know I might just give the person some money and sit down with them and try and plant a seed. Even if they were drinking.
Michael

[ObiShawn]

Show some scriptures? How much time you got?
I've got all the time in the world babe. And giving isn't the only issue I've challenged you to back up with scripture. I'm referring to all of your talking points. I mean, if you are trying to get us to see your point of view, it would be much more convincing than all of the repetative ranting you've been doing.

[larryl]

Show some scriptures? How much time you got?
Do me a favor ObiShawn, just for laughs.
Pick a gospel, any gospel. Take a highliter and start at the begining and everytime Jesus helps the poor, or heals someone or feeds someone (before he preaches to them) underline it. By the time you get finished go back and look at what is highlited. It will shock you.
Then ask yourself, why would God go through so much trouble to include all this information if it wasn't important.
Then ask yourself: why is this only preached about on a rare occasion in the evangelical Church?
Then ask yourself what the root of all evil is and -- make the connection.
Michael


so in other words, you're more interesting in arguing than backing up your argument?

you just throw it out there, it's up to us to go find scripture to back it up?

pass.

[larryl]

I am saying that Biblically speaking- Christ says "when you do it to the least of these, you do it unto me" his words not mine.

And i don't know I might just give the person some money and sit down with them and try and plant a seed. Even if they were drinking.
Michael


odd how your action changed when you realized you had just contradicted yourself.

[mikedevilsfan]

So, if some skinny, strung out dude came up to you, askin' if he could have some money...like, maybe he says he needs it for his kid or something...but he's obviously going through withdrawls, and you know he's just gonna go buy some smack and get his fix...you'd still give him the money?
Look at your language,"some skinny strung out dude"
You better pray you never become that person.

Give me your reasoning in chapter and verse form, so I can look it up in context...because never have I read that Jesus commanded us to never say no to people...
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
michael

[mikedevilsfan]

odd how your action changed when you realized you had just contradicted yourself.
I said even if they were drinking.
Haven't you ever witnessed to a drunk person?
The point is you care more about proving me wrong than the topic.
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

so in other words, you're more interesting in arguing than backing up your argument?

you just throw it out there, it's up to us to go find scripture to back it up?

pass.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.


Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.


Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.


Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.


You want more this took 30 seconds
michael

[larryl]

I said even if they were drinking.
Haven't you ever witnessed to a drunk person?
The point is you care more about proving me wrong than the topic.
Michael


you changed the topic...or someone did.

no, i care about you seeing the fault in your logic.

and yes, i have. and i have been the drunk being witnessed to (which was sorta fun, since i knew more scripture than the other person)......

but i would certainly have thought it odd if they had given me money for more beer, without knowing if i might have hungry kids at home.

[mikedevilsfan]

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

you changed the topic...or someone did.

no, i care about you seeing the fault in your logic.

and yes, i have. and i have been the drunk being witnessed to (which was sorta fun, since i knew more scripture than the other person)......

but i would certainly have thought it odd if they had given me money for more beer, without knowing if i might have hungry kids at home.

Well obviously you ask the person if they have eaten or not.
But the people who stand out on the road at the intersection all day. There isn't time to ask.
Michael

[ObiShawn]

Well obviously you ask the person if they have eaten or not.
But the people who stand out on the road at the intersection all day. There isn't time to ask.
Michael
They need your time (prayer and ministry) far more than they need your money.

[larryl]

Well obviously you ask the person if they have eaten or not.
But the people who stand out on the road at the intersection all day. There isn't time to ask.
Michael


then there isn't time to give......

[ObiShawn]

Show some scriptures? How much time you got?
I've got all the time in the world babe. And giving isn't the only issue I've challenged you to back up with scripture. I'm referring to all of your talking points. I mean, if you are trying to get us to see your point of view, it would be much more convincing than all of the repetative ranting you've been doing.

C'mon, don't forget about me now.

[larryl]

They need your time (prayer and ministry) far more than they need your money.

indeed......this guy was far happier, i think.........



Acts 3

1One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.

6Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God.

[larryl]

C'mon, don't forget about me now.


he DID post a whole list of verses for us......

of course, most were the same story from each Gospel....but he did as we asked.

[ObiShawn]

he DID post a whole list of verses for us......

of course, most were the same story from each Gospel....but he did as we asked.
Very true, but I have read those very verses hundreds of times and I still dont' see everything from Mike's perspective. Without a doubt, we should help the poor, but Mike had so many other talking points . . . I'd just like to see his scriptural backing for all of that.

[SmileyFreak1981]

Look at your language,"some skinny strung out dude"
You better pray you never become that person.
I won't become that person...I've seen too many friends and aqaintences become that person, and quite frankly it makes me very sad...aside from that, you didn't answer my question, Mike. Would you give them money knowing full well that they would go and get something to get high?

Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
michael
I can see how you can glean that from that verse, although it's within a section of scripture refering to loving one's enemies. But notice verse 31, which says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The famous Golden Rule. If I were a drug addict, I wouldn't want someone enabling me by giving me money, even if I lied to them and said I was going to buy me something to eat with it, when I really would go buy whatever substance I was after.

Giving money to someone who you know is going to buy smack, is like watering a near dead tree with poison instead of Miracle Grow. It does them no good.

[jwil59]

I thought this thread was started cause Bush and company are killers. Im just sayin.................... .......................

I log out for less than an hour and yall have posted 6 pages. Impressive.

[kiwisongbird]

I read the first three pages - sorry can't read it all but is it still ok if I post a bit??? She says in a little shy voice??? :)

Sometimes people who are poor drink and smoke and gamble and spend far too much on KFC etc because they are trapped in a poverty cycle - I was fairly sad when I saw that people I respect put poor people down for doing this... the gambling is a stab at trying to get some money... if you have a low education and can only see that you will be a factory worker for the rest of your life - well? I guess it kind of makes it feel better if you do the other stuff...

I agree with a lot of what you say Mike, but get saddened when you throw mean comments at people - there is hope for us all.

The poor in America are really well off compared to the poor in other countries... the poor here in Thailand are really well off compared to other countries, but they live in shacks and pick over other people's garbage to sell at the recycling station... sometimes we feel poor - we rely on other people giving to us so we can have a home and eat and live - we only have to look around us to see that we are not!! Unless we look at some of the missionaries here who are super-supported!! Then we feel poor again! :) :)

I find it difficult when people say stuff like "people who want to work" - it kind of makes me think they think that people who don't work are lazy - sure there are lazy people around who sponge off the government - in New Zealand too - but at times you can't get a job or a man may have reached the end of himself and has no self esteem left to even get out of bed in the morning.... when comments like this are made I sometimes feel sad cos I think we always, always need more compassion.

Love you all
Sharon :)

[kiwisongbird]

Mike, Mike, Mike - my apologies it was ObiShawn who said to you that you aren't worth the time!!!! I'm sorry.

ObiShawn - that is really mean to say that - everyone is worth the time - go ask Jesus. :) :) :) :) It brought tears to my eyes reading that.

[Evanescence]

Hi Mikedevilsfan....good to see you back.

Yes, I was about to post a new thread about the borderline communist activity in the cataloging of Americans as well. I for the life of me, can't figure out why people are so stubborn and non-sensitive to this. It is appaling that our Govt is abusing the constituion and/or making excuses for spying. Big brother is here....right now.

Check out my post on Insurance companies and their corrupt practices. They along with many employers are now doing credit checks as a means to set rates and/or judge people. It was a good discussion. We had an ex insurance agent who was defending them but he hasn't been seen since. Pride goes before the fall....

Rebel on dude!!!! :cool:

[Kyle's dad]

Mike, Mike, Mike - my apologies it was ObiShawn who said to you that you aren't worth the time!!!! I'm sorry.

ObiShawn - that is really mean to say that - everyone is worth the time - go ask Jesus. :) :) :) :) It brought tears to my eyes reading that.


Oh please!!! If he's gonna dish it out then he's gotta expect to get a little back. Starting out a thread by essentially accusing everyone of not knowing whats going on in the world isn't exactly what I would call nice.

He has no interest in discussion or dialogue. In his world, an opinion other than his can only come from someone who is simply hiding their heads in the sand.

[cheewiee]

we don't need tax breaks for anyone right now.

never, in US history, has there been a tax cut in a time of war.

there has been rationing, sacrificing....no tax cuts. why are we doing it now? why would we?

trillions in debt, and people want to lower taxes....

It seems that this particular post was overlooked... and it brings up a very valid point....

The Bush Administration has not asked once for the American People (outside of the armed forces) to make sacrifice. No government propiganda posters promoting war bonds... no Ration posters... Instead we ask soldiers to sacrifice for tax cuts....

[cheewiee]

Hi Mikedevilsfan....good to see you back.

Yes, I was about to post a new thread about the borderline communist activity in the cataloging of Americans as well....

It isn't communist... Its Authoritarian perhaps... but not communisitic...

[Gandalf]

It seems that this particular post was overlooked... and it brings up a very valid point....

The Bush Administration has not asked once for the American People (outside of the armed forces) to make sacrifice. No government propiganda posters promoting war bonds... no Ration posters... Instead we ask soldiers to sacrifice for tax cuts....
This argument overlooks a key factor here. When the tax rates are too high, tax revenues will be depressed because the taxes will hold back the economy. It's just like basic market economics in other areas - if you set the price too high, your profits will go down because sales will decrease. There's an optimal tax rate just as there's an optimal price, and we're far above that. So, by cutting the tax rate, we've increased the tax revenues by removing part of that anchor on the economy and can better afford to fight this war.

As for the history aspect of it... JFK cut taxes substantially, and it had the same effect - the economy grew stronger, and revenues increased. That was also in wartime. Prior to WWII, our tax rates weren't above that break-even point, so tax increases were necessary. After the massive socialist entitlement programs were instituted, the tax rate shot far beyond the economy's ability to support it, and has slowly been edged back to a more sustainable level by JFK, Reagan, and now Bush. It's still too high, but it's merely impeding the economy now, rather than strangling it.

Now, if he had said it'd have been better for the Senate to make the income tax rate cuts permanent rather than merely extending the capital gains and AMT cuts for a few years, I'd agree whole-heartedly. The Senate's just playing politics with that and other issues. But Bush's original tax cut plan is good, and should be permanent.

[mikedevilsfan]

then there isn't time to give......

At the stop sign there is. Just not a time to have a conversation.
Michael

[kiwisongbird]

I meant "worth the time to debate." I thought that was obvious, sorry I didn't make it clear enough.




Sorry for mis-reading - I guess that's the thing with writing rather than talking face - to face...

I agree with a lot of what Mike says but think that when these topics come up - you're right - it all ends up in a big argument... Kyles' Dad - I'm never going to stop not liking the icky comments - that's just how I'm made...

I live amongst expats here many of whom think Mr Bush can do no wrong - that frightens me because he is just a man... I know people who talk about him being God's chosen leader for this time - when I say so was Clinton, they freak out - oh no, written on their faces...I feel sad that it seems that America will be at war for the rest of time - I know lots of boys who may one day be fighting in war, because they are American - I have three sons and thank God that I am not American.

That said, I did like what Mr Bush said about immigration - it made sense. :) :)

[kiwisongbird]

I won't become that person...I've seen too many friends and aqaintences become that person, and quite frankly it makes me very sad...aside from that, you didn't answer my question, Mike. Would you give them money knowing full well that they would go and get something to get high?


We were taught to give food or drinik to alcoholics who begged outside our church - really stupid to give them food - I buy food for the beggars here and give it to them and they look really puzzled - but at least they can eat it and not have to give it to their bosses!!!

When I was a druggie I asked my brother-in-law for $100 dollars to buy a train ticket to get back home - he bought me a train ticket - I was so angry - I was going to spend it on drugs and hitch-hike home!!!!!!

Giving money doesn't help - even monetary hand-outs to other countries is only a quickfix - esp if they have corrupt government - the people don't get it.... need to teach them to take care of themselves. :) :)

[Debbie]

Today, I changed the original title given this thread and planned to wait until the thread developed to decide a better suited one. I have not done this yet because the thread has not.

I will say that we as adults should be able to carry on conversations with less bickering and direct challenging of others as some of you are doing. If you have no fruit to add, refrain from posting or commenting with regards to the response of others that you may or may not agree with.

Also, all are welcome here unless they abuse the priviledge extended to them. No one on these boards except the administration has any right to ask or tell another person to keep out, nor badger them about any choices made, yet change their mind.

Only civil debating allowed from this point forward. Continue....

[Mugirl04]

At the stop sign there is. Just not a time to have a conversation.
Michael
In today's society I believe you should give to organizations that help the poor not the poor themselves because some are just taking advantage, they can find help at a lot of organization there's no reason they should be beggin on the streets and why don't they get a job

[mikedevilsfan]

In today's society I believe you should give to organizations that help the poor not the poor themselves because some are just taking advantage, they can find help at a lot of organization there's no reason they should be beggin on the streets and why don't they get a job

If I remember right your a young person.
When you get out in the world and discover whats going on with the "jobs" get back to me.
Michael

[ObiShawn]

If I remember right your a young person.
When you get out in the world and discover whats going on with the "jobs" get back to me.
Michael

She said "organizations that help the poor" not "jobs." Though I do agree with your implication Mike, I do not trust the Red Cross after hurricane Rita hit my area and I got to see first hand just how benevolent they were with their funds.

But what would be wrong with supporting/giving to an organization (maybe a local church) that you know and trust will do the right thing with the money? At least you would then know that it is serving the purpose that you intended for it.

[SacredHeart]

If I remember right your a young person.
When you get out in the world and discover whats going on with the "jobs" get back to me.
Michael
ya know...was it really all that necessary to be so condescending towards Mugirl04? Just because she may be young gives you no right to treat her like her opinion has no value. She is entitled to state her thoughts without being arrogantly dismissed by the likes of you. You owe her an apology.

[Healing Oil]

ya know...was it really all that necessary to be so condescending towards Mugirl04? Just because she may be young gives you no right to treat her like her opinion has no value. She is entitled to state her thoughts without being arrogantly dismissed by the likes of you. You owe her an apology.
Sad isnt it? She most likely wont get one either. Murgirl04- I agree a lot with your post actually, and it made me think and recheck myself and what I am doing with my money :).

Young and smart ;)

[kiwisongbird]

...don't let people despise you because of your youth...

sometimes our boys 'get it' better than we do - they are 13,11 and 9!

I'm personally a little wary of giving to organisations and governments and trusting that the help will filter down to the ones who need it - that's a personal thing though... here we give to people we know and trust - then we know that the money will get to the people who need it most...mind you where we are, it's easy cos there is sooooo much need - orphans galore, displaced people, refugees, child prostitutes (sold by their parents) etc etc :) :)

How old are you Mike? Doesn't say on your profile - I was just wondering.. :) :)

[middletree]

If I remember right your a young person.
When you get out in the world and discover whats going on with the "jobs" get back to me.
Michael
Well, I'm not young (41) and I know that there are plenty of jobs out there. I see signs for places all the time, begging for employees, and at wages higher than minimum. Often, much higher. And it isn't just in my area (Dallas), either. I have spent a lot of time in other states this year, and I see Help Wanted signs everywhere.

Then, there's always the opportunity to start a business. One can mow lawns or design websites without a lot of startup cash, compared to other businesses.

[Jesuslove]

Well, I'm not young (41) and I know that there are plenty of jobs out there. I see signs for places all the time, begging for employees, and at wages higher than minimum. Often, much higher. And it isn't just in my area (Dallas), either. I have spent a lot of time in other states this year, and I see Help Wanted signs everywhere.

Then, there's always the opportunity to start a business. One can mow lawns or design websites without a lot of startup cash, compared to other businesses.
If there are so many jobs in Texas and you see Help Wanted signs everywhere, why are we worried about illegal immigrants filling the jobs no one will take?

[Gandalf]

There aren't jobs people won't take. There are just employers that aren't offering enough to entice people to work for them in as competitive a job market as we have with the economy this strong.

But that aside, pretty much everyone is in favor of allowing a greater level of legal immigration, and most people support increasing the level of temporary work permits also. Those are different issues than securing the borders and enforcing immigration laws.

[Yippy]

Those are different issues than securing the borders and enforcing immigration laws.
But we LIKE confusing the issues here...;)

[middletree]

If there are so many jobs in Texas and you see Help Wanted signs everywhere, why are we worried about illegal immigrants filling the jobs no one will take?
I never said I was worried. You are mixing things up here. Or putting words in my mouth.

[middletree]

If there are so many jobs in Texas and you see Help Wanted signs everywhere, why are we worried about illegal immigrants filling the jobs no one will take?
Besides, I specifically said in my post that it wasn't just Texas. I have spent time in Florida and Virginia in recent weeks, and I'm seeing signs everywhere. I am working with a client in Virginia that has increased from 50 to 150 employees since January, and they aren't done hiring. I see signs for everything from retail to bricklaying. Jobs for the able-bodied are out there, despite what the anti-Bush crowd likes to tell themselves. Even in places where employment isn't so great, it still match up with Mike's scenario of starving children with no recourse.

[larryl]

If I remember right your a young person.
When you get out in the world and discover whats going on with the "jobs" get back to me.
Michael


i am a 32 yr old college drop-out, and have no issue finding a job, for the most part, except for that one 6 month stretch, which had some other extenuating cirumstances.....and i can't work for minimum wage, either, or anything close to it.

i have been in the real world for a long time, and believe me, if you want to work, there are jobs.

[jwil59]

There aren't jobs people won't take. There are just employers that aren't offering enough to entice people to work for them in as competitive a job market as we have with the economy this strong.

But that aside, pretty much everyone is in favor of allowing a greater level of legal immigration, and most people support increasing the level of temporary work permits also. Those are different issues than securing the borders and enforcing immigration laws.

Right you are!!

What is there to motivate employers to pay a living wage if the illegals will do it for less? That's where we miss out. My brother in law and I had a vinyl siding business many moons ago making great money. We worked new apartment complexes for a huge builder in Atlanta. The hispanics pulled up one day and offered to do the work for about 2/3 our price. Them in, us out. Months later the builder called us back to fix the shoddy workmanship done by these folks. We told him to stick it.

[jwil59]

i am a 32 yr old college drop-out, and have no issue finding a job, for the most part, except for that one 6 month stretch, which had some other extenuating cirumstances.....and i can't work for minimum wage, either, or anything close to it.

i have been in the real world for a long time, and believe me, if you want to work, there are jobs.

Does running around town in a grass skirt and a parrot hat constitute looking for a job? I'm just sayin.................... ...

Those pencil thin mustaches just ain't in style anymore.

[larryl]

Does running around town in a grass skirt and a parrot hat constitute looking for a job? I'm just sayin.................... ...

Those pencil thin mustaches just ain't in style anymore.


:D

[mikedevilsfan]

i am a 32 yr old college drop-out, and have no issue finding a job, for the most part, except for that one 6 month stretch, which had some other extenuating cirumstances.....and i can't work for minimum wage, either, or anything close to it.

i have been in the real world for a long time, and believe me, if you want to work, there are jobs.

That wasn't directed to you larry.
Michael

[larryl]

That wasn't directed to you larry.
Michael


but my point stands....if you want a job badly enough, you will find one.

i do appreciate your pointing out you weren't directing your commment at me.

[mikedevilsfan]

but my point stands....if you want a job badly enough, you will find one.

i do appreciate your pointing out you weren't directing your commment at me.

What kind of job we talking about here? One with a living wage or McDonalds?
Michael

[larryl]

What kind of job we talking about here? One with a living wage or McDonalds?
Michael


as i pointed out, i cannot live on anything near minimum wage. i am talking about jobs that pay a good living wage (or more). they are out there. it depends on how bad you want it.

[mikedevilsfan]

as i pointed out, i cannot live on anything near minimum wage. i am talking about jobs that pay a good living wage (or more). they are out there. it depends on how bad you want it.

Well I'll tell you who wants it bad, the Mexicans. I say let them have it.
Michael

[larryl]

Well I'll tell you who wants it bad, the Mexicans. I say let them have it.
Michael


i am not talking about construction.....how about sales?

[larryl]

i don't mean to insinuate that construction is all hispanics can do, i am just saying i am not just talking about manual labor jobs..

[mikedevilsfan]

i don't mean to insinuate that construction is all hispanics can do, i am just saying i am not just talking about manual labor jobs..

I know what you meant.
Michael

[larryl]

i am not talking about construction.....how about sales?

so?

[mikedevilsfan]

so?

So what?
Our economy in terms of the people is in the toilet. What do you want?
Michael

[larryl]

So what?
Our economy in terms of the people is in the toilet. What do you want?
Michael


i was asking how about sales?

sales jobs are notoriously hard to fill, inspite of being the highest paying jobs in the country.

[Gandalf]

Our economy in terms of the people is in the toilet. What do you want?
Are you a Mexican? 'Cause that's simply not true in the US.

[Jesuslove]

Are you a Mexican? 'Cause that's simply not true in the US.
We have amassed the largest deficit in the history of the US, yet Bush is still giving tax cuts to the rich. Our children will be repaying this debt for generations. And our leader proports to be a fiscal conservative.

[Gandalf]

We have a large spending deficit because the Congress keeps increasing spending and Bush won't veto the bills. Federal tax revenues are up substantially due to the tax cuts - that's not the problem. Spending does need to be decreased.

But, no one in the Senate wants their pet earmarks touched, and no one has the courage to actually touch the social welfare programs that are poorly structured, poorly managed (not to mention unconstitutional in principle), and have been bankrupting us. They'd rather all just keep dumping federal money back into pet projects at home and ignore the bigger picture. It's a problem across all of Congress - none of the leadership is being fiscally conservative or even keeping spending in check. It needs to be dramatically reduced.

[Jesuslove]

We have a large spending deficit because the Congress keeps increasing spending and Bush won't veto the bills. Federal tax revenues are up substantially due to the tax cuts - that's not the problem. Spending does need to be decreased.

But, no one in the Senate wants their pet earmarks touched, and no one has the courage to actually touch the social welfare programs that are poorly structured, poorly managed (not to mention unconstitutional in principle), and have been bankrupting us. They'd rather all just keep dumping federal money back into pet projects at home and ignore the bigger picture. It's a problem across all of Congress - none of the leadership is being fiscally conservative or even keeping spending in check. It needs to be dramatically reduced.
The fiscally conservative Republicans are in control of Congress. Furthermore, the President has to sign off on the budget, so he is responsible.
I agree with you about pet projects. It's horrible how taxpayer dollars are wasted. Evanescence is right... we need a viable third party in America.... both parties have too much power.

[cheewiee]

The fiscally conservative Republicans are in control of Congress. Furthermore, the President has to sign off on the budget, so he is responsible.
I agree with you about pet projects. It's horrible how taxpayer dollars are wasted. Evanescence is right... we need a viable third party in America.... both parties have too much power.

We don't need A viable third Party.... We need a multitue of viable parties to rise up...

[Gandalf]

The fiscally conservative Republicans are in control of Congress. Furthermore, the President has to sign off on the budget, so he is responsible.
I agree with you about pet projects. It's horrible how taxpayer dollars are wasted. Evanescence is right... we need a viable third party in America.... both parties have too much power.
I wouldn't call most of the Republicans fiscally conservative at present, based on their records... moreso than the Democrats, certainly, but that's not saying much of anything. Both parties apparently want to spend more; the Republicans just realize that cutting taxes will not only be good for people, but also will give them more to spend. :rolleyes:

I don't think we necessarily need a third party though... we'd have a whole lot of pull in at least one of the parties, if we'd learn to use it effectively. Much easier to influence the platform of an existing party that's close on some issues than to generate adequate support for a new one.