Immigration: WWJD?

[Jesuslove]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?

[Joshua24:15]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?
I think he'd boot the Democrats out of the country much like he did with the merchants in the Temple.

:p ;)

Actually, the real question you should pose is:
Was Jesus a nationalist?
Would Jesus support national sovereignty?
Would Jesus encourage border security?

I think asking those questions would garner a better, more thorough response than the heavily biased one you asked will recieve.

[Jesuslove]

I think he'd boot the Democrats out of the country much like he did with the merchants in the Temple.

:p ;)

Actually, the real question you should pose is:
Was Jesus a nationalist?
Would Jesus support national sovereignty?
Would Jesus encourage border security?

I think asking those questions would garner a better more thorough response than the heavily biased one you asked will recieve.
I think GWB would be the first one booted by Jesus. And I don't think Jesus would support national sovereignty.

[Joshua24:15]

I think GWB would be the first one booted by Jesus.Why just George? Who else would he boot (besides Rummy. :D)?

And I don't think Jesus would support national sovereignty.That's interesting. Why do you think so?

[Yippy]

I would say that he'd probably say something like, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." and then go about the Father's business. I don't think he'd make any political issue a cause. He came to do the will of the Father. What would Jesus have me do in the world he's placed me in? As an American I would vote to keep the US borders protected, endorsing LEGAL immigration, so that the USA could remain the country it is. As a Christian, I can cross borders and do whatever God wants me to do wherever He wants me to be. I can express His love and mercy in Mexico or here without having an open border here. The United States is not the church.

[kiwisongbird]

I think Jesus would remember that He is the Son of God first and an American second and work all things from that premise...

I have a non-Christian friend here who is convinced that if Jesus came to America now He would be crucified by some Christians within two weeks - so I guess if that happened, He wouldn't even have time to show us what He would do about immigrants.

Yes, I do sound cross - I can't get a grip on the immigrant problem - probably because it's just too far away from me and my understanding cos I'm not American and our borders are all ocean!

[kiwisongbird]

Maybe He would have a quick look around America then go live in Mexico.... :eek: :eek:

My brother had a dream one night that Jesus came to our church to visit - looked around and walked out the door - the people followed Him and asked Him where He was going - he said - "I came to see the children, where are they?" and He walked off to where the Children's Church was and spent the day with them.........

[bridges]

Two men from Mexico showed up on my doorstep one Saturday morning a few years back. I think I've already told that story on the boards. I fed them, took them in my home, let them use my phone, and kept them there at the house until their kinfolk could get there from four hours west of us. Why? Because illegals are people, Jesus died for them, they descended from Adam and Noah, are therefore my cousins (at the very least), and it behooves us to take the most Christlike possible action in any situation we find ourselves placed in.

As long as they are on the other side of the Rio Grande, however, the law says that's where they are supposed to stay unless and until they obtain the appropriate permission to come over. Same for us. It's an international border, it's lawful, ordained of God according to scripture, and must be respected. Jesus would support that, He is God, He sets up and puts down governments, and lets them make laws, and expects His children to respect and obey. So why didn't I turn Carlos and Francisco in to the authorities. Gray area there, for me..., my house is my house, when they're on MY porch, it's MY decision to do what I know is right. Rahab didn't rat out the Hebrew spies. Carlos and Francisco have kin out by Fort Worth, I used to have an Aunt in Rosarita. I was allowed to go see her, why should they get busted for coming to see them? Fair is fair.

"I counsel thee to keep the king's commandment," Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 8:2, "and that in regard of the oath of God."

East Texas translation: Obey the law, but with your duty to God in mind.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

This promises to be a very interesting thread if all involved are thoughtful. There are two subjects that can incite the most heated debates: politics and religion; and both are represented in this question.

It was the religion He established with Abraham that caused the Jewish leaders of His time to react to Him as they did, and it was the politics of the day that eventually brought them to the point of crucifying their own Messiah. Jesus never ran for office, it has oft been pointed out, and truly so; but even He, the King of Glory, paid his taxes, with miracle money from a fish's mouth. One must strike a balance. Where is the right path of action with regard to our Mexican neighbors? Let those who love the Lord state their views!

[Joshua24:15]

Well said, bridges! I understand your struggle with the issue of assisting illegal immigrants. I actually wrote a lengthy letter and appeared in court to contest the deportation of an illegal! But, as you point out, there's a difference between individual responsibilies and national responsibilities.

It is our country's duty to secure and defend its borders. This is no different than any nation anywhere. As you pointed out, God Himself established the institutions of nations and governments.

Individually, however, we are called to love our neighbor, feed the hungry, and shelter the traveller. Of course, there's also the bit about submitting to the laws of the land (those that aren't in opposition to the Laws of God, at least). So, it becomes a 'case by case' basis, which in turn means we must use wisdom and guidance from the Holy Spirit in making our decision.

One must strike a balance. Where is the right path of action with regard to our Mexican neighbors?
High fence and wide gate. It's the sensible answer that solves both problems.

[ali_jacobs]

I don't think he'd make any political issue a cause.

That statement holds the most truth in this thread.

[Yippy]

Let those who love the Lord state their views!
I thought I did.;)

[Joshua24:15]

That statement holds the most truth in this thread.Yeah, but if we listened to Yippy's cool, calm Common Sense, it'd take all the wind out of these sails and this thread would simply deflate.

We don't want limp, deflated threads hanging around, now do we? Of course not.

[ObiShawn]

I would say that he'd probably say something like, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." and then go about the Father's business. I don't think he'd make any political issue a cause. He came to do the will of the Father. What would Jesus have me do in the world he's placed me in? As an American I would vote to keep the US borders protected, endorsing LEGAL immigration, so that the USA could remain the country it is. As a Christian, I can cross borders and do whatever God wants me to do wherever He wants me to be. I can express His love and mercy in Mexico without having an open border here. The United States is not the church.
Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Jesuslove, your bias is shown before people even read your first post.
You should rename the topic to make it actually accurate. it should read: Illegal Immigration: WWJD.

[bridges]

I'll be back!

Love.

[mat1583]

*raises hand*

Leviticus 19:33-34

"When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

..and from Emma Lazarus, an exerpt from the poem that is on the Statue of Liberty:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I think that pretty much sums up my view on the whole immigration deal.

-washboard

[jwil59]

Two men from Mexico showed up on my doorstep one Saturday morning a few years back. I think I've already told that story on the boards. I fed them, took them in my home, let them use my phone, and kept them there at the house until their kinfolk could get there from four hours west of us. Why? Because illegals are people, Jesus died for them, they descended from Adam and Noah, are therefore my cousins (at the very least), and it behooves us to take the most Christlike possible action in any situation we find ourselves placed in.

As long as they are on the other side of the Rio Grande, however, the law says that's where they are supposed to stay unless and until they obtain the appropriate permission to come over. Same for us. It's an international border, it's lawful, ordained of God according to scripture, and must be respected. Jesus would support that, He is God, He sets up and puts down governments, and lets them make laws, and expects His children to respect and obey. So why didn't I turn Carlos and Francisco in to the authorities. Gray area there, for me..., my house is my house, when they're on MY porch, it's MY decision to do what I know is right. Rahab didn't rat out the Hebrew spies. Carlos and Francisco have kin out by Fort Worth, I used to have an Aunt in Rosarita. I was allowed to go see her, why should they get busted for coming to see them? Fair is fair.

"I counsel thee to keep the king's commandment," Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 8:2, "and that in regard of the oath of God."

East Texas translation: Obey the law, but with your duty to God in mind.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

This promises to be a very interesting thread if all involved are thoughtful. There are two subjects that can incite the most heated debates: politics and religion; and both are represented in this question.

It was the religion He established with Abraham that caused the Jewish leaders of His time to react to Him as they did, and it was the politics of the day that eventually brought them to the point of crucifying their own Messiah. Jesus never ran for office, it has oft been pointed out, and truly so; but even He, the King of Glory, paid his taxes, with miracle money from a fish's mouth. One must strike a balance. Where is the right path of action with regard to our Mexican neighbors? Let those who love the Lord state their views!


I think you did the right thing with carlos and francisco. However, you didn't commit a felony in order to see your aunt and there is also a legal and right way for them to see their kin. I think that our nation shares your sentiment, for the most part. That's why we are all in such an uproar trying to find a humanitarian way to deal with this issue. I don't know any scripture that advocates gaining entry into another nation illegally. I think Jesus would love them, clothe them, feed them, but in the end He has given the responsibility of enforcing man's law to man. I wonder why, He has to know we gonna screw it up somehow.

[jwil59]

[QUOTE=mat1583]*raises hand*

Leviticus 19:33-34

"When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

What we would do for the native among us is punish those who break the law, as they did in the land of Egypt. Im just sayin.............

What I really wanna say is ROLL TIDE ROLL

[mat1583]

What we would do for the native among us is punish those who break the law, as they did in the land of Egypt. Im just sayin.............



What do you mean by this statement? It's a little confusing.

-washboard

[Yippy]

I think that pretty much sums up my view on the whole immigration deal.

-washboard
But what about the ILLEGAL immigration deal?

[Kyle's dad]

I think GWB would be the first one booted by Jesus.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Good to see you're keeping this discussion unbiased and not throwing any political rheotoric around or anything.

[jwil59]

What do you mean by this statement? It's a little confusing.

-washboard


That's a reference to the verse you posted.

[ObiShawn]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?Why don't you answer your own question? You toss it out there for all of us "conservative republicans" to answer, knowing that we usually disagree with your political perspective and for why? Just so you can argue?

Why don't you answer the question yourself and back it up with scripture. It will make you look less like a troll.

[mat1583]

But what about the ILLEGAL immigration deal?

That is my view on immigration, whether it's called illegal by the United States or not. 100 years ago, our nation hardly had any immigration laws at all. Italians, jews, Scotts, Irish, etc...were all allowed to enter the nation as long as they didn't have any strange diseases and could answer a few simple questions about our nation. There was no bigotry, no hate towards foreigners. The immigrants settled in places like "Little Italy" and could hardly speak any English. Welfare programs and taxes were hardly an issue. Do you honestly think Egypt had immigrant laws?


-washboard

[mat1583]

Why don't you answer your own question? You toss it out there for all of us "conservative republicans" to answer, knowing that we usually disagree with your political perspective and for why? Just so you can argue?

Why don't you answer the question yourself and back it up with scripture. It will make you look less like a troll.

I answered the question and I'm not a "conservative republican". I think it was a great question and is a debate relevant to what's going on in our world today. His question is not trollish at all. I answered it with scripture in case you're actually interested in the debate at hand. Please get back on topic. If you feel that his question is trollish and should be changed or taken off, then please make such a request through the "report post" button. Thanks!

-washboard

[Sam!]

That is my view on immigration, whether it's called illegal by the United States or not. 100 years ago, our nation hardly had any immigration laws at all. Italians, jews, Scotts, Irish, etc...were all allowed to enter the nation as long as they didn't have any strange diseases and could answer a few simple questions about our nation. There was no bigotry, no hate towards foreigners. The immigrants settled in places like "Little Italy" and could hardly speak any English. Welfare programs and taxes were hardly an issue. Do you honestly think Egypt had immigrant laws?


-washboard
1) They also were not costing their country tens of millions of dollars and/or ducking taxes.

2) Egypt may not have had immigration laws, but Joseph's family (that is, the Hebrews) would not have been welcome (the Egyptians detested sheepherders) if Joseph had not had a position of authority in the Egyptian government.

[Grank]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?
well seeing as how Jesus addressed politics frequently...

i think Jesus would encourage people to follow the current laws. what kind of noob question is this anyway?

[jrmitch]

That is my view on immigration, whether it's called illegal by the United States or not. 100 years ago, our nation hardly had any immigration laws at all. Italians, jews, Scotts, Irish, etc...were all allowed to enter the nation as long as they didn't have any strange diseases and could answer a few simple questions about our nation. There was no bigotry, no hate towards foreigners....-washboardActually, our country has a lengthy history of bigotry and hatred towards foreigners. It litters the landscape of how America has reacted to waves of immigration - be it legal or illegal - throughout the 19th & 20th century. Some of our ugliest cultural racism has been targeted towards those of Irish, Italian, Jewish, and Asian backgrounds.

Sorry, if that sounds harsh, but it's a historical fact. While our response to the current issue regarding Mexico may have more legitimacy because of the existing laws, the behavior exhibited by many of the most vocal critics against immigrants from Mexico is no different from the treatment Chinese laborers recieved in the late part of the 19th century, or that my young grandfather recieved as an Irish immigrant in 1902, or Asians recieved during the mid-part of the 20th century. Bigotry is part of human nature, and we're very good at finding legitimate excuses to justify illegitimate hatred towards those whom we don't like.

I don't mean that to imply that we don't need to address the current crisis; we obviously do. But to come back to the original question, I don't think Jesus would address the legal side of the issue nearly as much as he would the moral dilemna facing our reaction to the human beings involved. I'm deeply saddened by the large number of supposedly loving Christians who seem unwilling to at least extend compassion and display an understandiing of what motivates many of those crossing the border to do so in the first place. Their motives are the same as those of many of our grandparents and great grandparents: they seek a better world than where they are. And as I've come to understand the heart of Jesus I think he'd be much more concerned about our reaction to their situation than He would about the legality of the issue.

[Jesuslove]

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Jesuslove, your bias is shown before people even read your first post.
You should rename the topic to make it actually accurate. it should read: Illegal Immigration: WWJD.
ObiShawn, your bias always comes through in your posts. No offense taken.

[Jesuslove]

*raises hand*

Leviticus 19:33-34

"When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

..and from Emma Lazarus, an exerpt from the poem that is on the Statue of Liberty:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I think that pretty much sums up my view on the whole immigration deal.

-washboard
Amen! I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[Jesuslove]

But what about the ILLEGAL immigration deal?
It shouldn't matter. Helping our neighbor is what matters. That's what Jesus WOULD do!

[Jesuslove]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Good to see you're keeping this discussion unbiased and not throwing any political rheotoric around or anything.
guess you missed what was initially said... no problem.

[Jesuslove]

Why don't you answer your own question? You toss it out there for all of us "conservative republicans" to answer, knowing that we usually disagree with your political perspective and for why? Just so you can argue?

Why don't you answer the question yourself and back it up with scripture. It will make you look less like a troll.
Obi...don't be a hater.. Jesus taught us to love our neighbor. Stop trying to politicize this issue.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

It shouldn't matter. Helping our neighbor is what matters. That's what Jesus WOULD do!

Couldn't possibly agree with you more! Let's just do it the right way, and if we don't know what the right way is, let's figure a way out that makes sense, not sit around argue about it until the cows come home.

[cheewiee]

Obi...don't be a hater.. Jesus taught us to love our neighbor. Stop trying to politicize this issue.

Well, then, define love...

To me, love would be helping Mexico become a place of opportunity, not letting people come here illegially, to work for substandard wages, treated in a substandard mannor. And this Jesuslove seems to be what you advocate.. the status quo. Which is unsafe, unequality, all at the expense of American workers...

To me, the status quo isn't love, its racisim... something I would think Jesus would be opposed to...

[Jesuslove]

I think he'd be much more concerned about our reaction to their situation than He would about the legality of the issue.
I concur. Jesus lived by God's laws not man's laws.

[Jesuslove]

Couldn't possibly agree with you more! Let's just do it the right way, and if we don't know what the right way is, let's figure a way out that makes sense, not sit around argue about it until the cows come home.
To me, strengthening the Mexican economy would be the best way.

[cheewiee]

Couldn't possibly agree with you more! Let's just do it the right way, and if we don't know what the right way is, let's figure a way out that makes sense, not sit around argue about it until the cows come home.

There is a right way....

First, the right way is to close the border... The Second, is to develop a plan to help incorporate those who are here, and have been here for sometime into our society to make them ligetimate... Those who think we can simply toss out 12 million people need to get a grip on reality... And I don't want to pay for the imprisonment of 12 million people simply trying to make a better life for themselves... So there needs to be some sort of.. GASP Amnesty program..
Third, there needs to be a guest worker program... but it shouldn't be limited to just Mexico... It should be targed towards people of all nations, willing to take jobs that Americans won't take.

Oh wait, isn't that what the president's plan is.... ;)

[jrmitch]

.....Which is unsafe, unequality, all at the expense of American workers. To me, the status quo isn't love, its racisim... something I would think Jesus would be opposed to...I agree that Jesus would be opposed to racism - but Americans certainly aren't. Again, this is nothing new. For example, these same arguments were used against the Irish just after the turn of the century. We're not making up anything new here, just recycling the same cultural arguments 100 years later against a different ethnic group.

Look, I agree the border issue must be addresed, but so should the issue of the thousands of residents from many countries who are here illegally, yet have held jobs, paid taxes, owned property, and contributed in a worthwhile manner to their local community. While the thought of helping Mexico strengthen their economy is a good long term goal, that doesn't provide jobs and feed hungry kids right now. And as the purpose of this thread was to examine how Jesus would respond, I fail to see where just slamming the borders shut while detaining and deporting people from over 100 diffferent countries (not just Mexico) would display the compassion of Jesus towards the circumstances that drove many of them to be here in the first place. It's every bit as much a human issue as it is a legal one, and Jesus dealt with the human heart to a much greater degree than the political system He lived under. In light of much of the reaction I've seen both locally and nationally to this issue, I think He'd be disgusted with His church's inability to do the same. :(

[cheewiee]

I agree that Jesus would be opposed to racism - but Americans certainly aren't. Again, this is nothing new. For example, these same arguments were used against the Irish just after the turn of the century. We're not making up anything new here, just recycling the same cultural arguments 100 years later against a different ethnic group.

Listen, as the grandson of a Czech immigrant, I know that this type of racisim and prejiduce isn't unique... Do you wanna know how many Dumb Polock jokes I have heard in my life, because my last name sounds polish?

Look, I agree the border issue must be addresed, but so should the issue of the thousands of residents from many countries who are here illegally, yet have held jobs, paid taxes, owned property, and contributed in a worthwhile manner to their local community.

That's why I said, that an amnisty program is essential for any form of realisistic immigration reform to be successful...

While the thought of helping Mexico strengthen their economy is a good long term goal, that doesn't provide jobs and feed hungry kids right now. And as the purpose of this thread was to examine how Jesus would respond, I fail to see where just slamming the borders shut while detaining and deporting people from over 100 diffferent countries (not just Mexico) would display the compassion of Jesus towards the circumstances that drove many of them to be here in the first place.

America cannot suport the worlds poor. I wish we could, I wish we could get over our self centered materialistic ways... But as a nation as a whole, I just don't see that happening. The Hippies of the 60's assured that when they became the yuppies of the 80's and instilled in their offspring a desire for things.

Our economy cannot support open borders, we simply don't have the social dollars..we don't have the schools.. So then the reasonable thing is to figure out how many "Guest Workers" we need, and issue guest worker Visas....

It's every bit as much a human issue as it is a legal one, and Jesus dealt with the human heart to a much greater degree than the political system He lived under. In light of much of the reaction I've seen both locally and nationally to this issue, I think He'd be disgusted with His church's inability to do the same. :(

I disagree... Jesus talked alot about the human heart, but the primary purpose of his ministry was spiritual, not natural. While I don't argue against "Love your Neighbor" how does this apply to this particular problem? We must not forget that our Neighbors also include American Citizens here who get priced out of certain jobs because of these illegial workers...

[TheBus36(Retired)]

To me, strengthening the Mexican economy would be the best way.

That would certainly be a start, and probably one of the most effective actions to be taken. If we could only keep the Mexican government in check. That would be a huge feat.

[Jesuslove]

I agree that Jesus would be opposed to racism - but Americans certainly aren't. Again, this is nothing new. For example, these same arguments were used against the Irish just after the turn of the century. We're not making up anything new here, just recycling the same cultural arguments 100 years later against a different ethnic group.
At the risk of being criticized as I have been in the past, I AGREE with you. For some reason, I think we Americans look for a scapegoat... someone we can define as lesser than us. You are right, with every wave of immigration into America, we've had to deal with racism.

Look, I agree the border issue must be addresed, but so should the issue of the thousands of residents from many countries who are here illegally, yet have held jobs, paid taxes, owned property, and contributed in a worthwhile manner to their local community. While the thought of helping Mexico strengthen their economy is a good long term goal, that doesn't provide jobs and feed hungry kids right now. And as the purpose of this thread was to examine how Jesus would respond, I fail to see where just slamming the borders shut while detaining and deporting people from over 100 diffferent countries (not just Mexico) would display the compassion of Jesus towards the circumstances that drove many of them to be here in the first place.
I agree with you. We need to address the root of the problem, economics.

It's every bit as much a human issue as it is a legal one, and Jesus dealt with the human heart to a much greater degree than the political system He lived under. In light of much of the reaction I've seen both locally and nationally to this issue, I think He'd be disgusted with His church's inability to do the same. :(
Again I agree. Jesus focused on people's hearts and tried to change people's hearts with love. I too think Jesus would be disgusted with many people's reactions to this issue.

[Jesuslove]

That would certainly be a start, and probably one of the most effective actions to be taken. If we could only keep the Mexican government in check. That would be a huge feat.
Well it would be hard to control another government. I suggest we offer tax breaks to companies that open up operations in Mexico AND pay Mexicans a fair wage. That's the kind of effort I feel we need to support.

[jrmitch]

I disagree... Jesus talked alot about the human heart, but the primary purpose of his ministry was spiritual, not natural. While I don't argue against "Love your Neighbor" how does this apply to this particular problem? We must not forget that our Neighbors also include American Citizens here who get priced out of certain jobs because of these illegial workers...And again, that's not a new problem. But we also have the opposite side of this coin that no one has mentioned, which is American companies outsourcing jobs outside of the domestic US. (And this one has bit me in the butt, because a Call center where I was a manager here in Denver 2 years ago was closed down to ship the jobs to Canada; other companines such as Dell, Netscape, and G.E. Capitol have outsourced their customer service overseas and put thousands of Americans on the unemployment line as a result). Yet much of the argument against illegals who hold jobs is presented from the standpoint as though they're the only ones threatening domestic jobs, which couldn't be further from the truth.

As far as how it applies to this problem, if I knew that I'd have all of His wisdom.......:D . I do know this: he wouldn't view illegals with any less of a sense of worth than He would American citizens. While I don't have all the answers about how we should handle every aspect of this issue, I do know that I have a responsibility as a Christian to view the human side of it through the lens of one who is supposed to value each life - regardless of nationality - equally. And that's where I think Jesus would find fault with some of us, because many in this argument (not you, allright? ;) ) aren't doing so. I've personally encountered Christians who feel as though we're superior to those who are in this country illegally just because we're American citizens. I fail to find any example of Jesus using nationality as a basis for superiority.

[Aaron]

I would say that he'd probably say something like, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." and then go about the Father's business. I don't think he'd make any political issue a cause. He came to do the will of the Father. What would Jesus have me do in the world he's placed me in? As an American I would vote to keep the US borders protected, endorsing LEGAL immigration, so that the USA could remain the country it is. As a Christian, I can cross borders and do whatever God wants me to do wherever He wants me to be. I can express His love and mercy in Mexico or here without having an open border here. The United States is not the church.
Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Jesuslove, your bias is shown before people even read your first post.
You should rename the topic to make it actually accurate. it should read: Illegal Immigration: WWJD.
ditto.

[cheewiee]

And again, that's not a new problem. But we also have the opposite side of this coin that no one has mentioned, which is American companies outsourcing jobs outside of the domestic US. (And this one has bit me in the butt, because a Call center where I was a manager here in Denver 2 years ago was closed down to ship the jobs to Canada; other companines such as Dell, Netscape, and G.E. Capitol have outsourced their customer service overseas and put thousands of Americans on the unemployment line as a result). Yet much of the argument against illegals who hold jobs is presented from the standpoint as though they're the only ones threatening domestic jobs, which couldn't be further from the truth.

As somone who works for a company that does business with Big Box mart, I understand that point FULLY. The only reason Big Box Mart hasn't had my job outsourced, is because we deal with perishables... :D

It is the consumer that is threatening domestic jobs... Consumers that demand the most goods for the lowest price are especially culpable. Dell outsources jobs because of the demand for cheap computers is VERY HIGH. It's the same reason Farm Co-Ops hire illegials, because consumers demand cheap tomatoes and lettuce...

As far as how it applies to this problem, if I knew that I'd have all of His wisdom.......:D . I do know this: he wouldn't view illegals with any less of a sense of worth than He would American citizens. While I don't have all the answers about how we should handle every aspect of this issue, I do know that I have a responsibility as a Christian to view the human side of it through the lens of one who is supposed to value each life - regardless of nationality - equally. And that's where I think Jesus would find fault with some of us, because many in this argument (not you, allright? ;) ) aren't doing so. Much of the attitude I've personally encountered from Christians is that we're superior to those in this country illegally because we're American citizens. I fail to find any example of Jesus using nationality as a basis for superiority.

Your right, Illegials should never be viewed as having less worth than American Citizens... HOWEVER that is EXACTLY how they are viewed under the status quo, right now... That is why Immigration reform NEEDS to happen... Turning a blind eye to illegials working for less than minimum wage is just as racist and unchristian as counting a slave as 3/5ths of a man...

[jrmitch]

...Your right, Illegials should never be viewed as having less worth than American Citizens... HOWEVER that is EXACTLY how they are viewed under the status quo, right now... That is why Immigration reform NEEDS to happen... Turning a blind eye to illegials working for less than minimum wage is just as racist and unchristian as counting a slave as 3/5ths of a man...Very good point. ;)

[Jesuslove]

As far as how it applies to this problem, if I knew that I'd have all of His wisdom.......:D . I do know this: he wouldn't view illegals with any less of a sense of worth than He would American citizens. While I don't have all the answers about how we should handle every aspect of this issue, I do know that I have a responsibility as a Christian to view the human side of it through the lens of one who is supposed to value each life - regardless of nationality - equally. And that's where I think Jesus would find fault with some of us, because many in this argument (not you, allright? ;) aren't doing so. I've personally encountered Christians who feel as though we're superior to those who are in this country illegally just because we're American citizens. I fail to find any example of Jesus using nationality as a basis for superiority.
I agree. We are all human and loved by Jesus , no matter how rich or poor AND no matter how light or dark complected we are. If we keep Jesus' message in the front of our mind, I think many of us will view things differently.

I'm enjoying this debate. I find it interesting that both sides have been able to use the Bible to justify their positions. I also find it interesting that both conservatives and liberals have varying views on this issue; it's not cut and dry like other social issues that are viewed more along party or ideological lines.

[Jesuslove]

As a Christian, I can cross borders and do whatever God wants me to do wherever He wants me to be. I can express His love and mercy in Mexico or here without having an open border here. The United States is not the church.
Yes, but Mexicans don't have the same right to cross the border as they wish.

[SacredHeart]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?
Yep, I think Jesus would build bridges. Which is what America has done on paper but not in practice.

I do not think it is immoral for any country to demand that foreigners enter their country properly. What I find immoral is the lack of respect this country has shown for its own laws. For years we've turned a blind eye at illegal immigration for reasons that are probably far more complex than any of us realize and then all of a sudden we decide to enforce our own laws. We shot ourselves in the foot regarding illegal immigration, and while Bush's handling of this issue absolutely baffles me, the problem existed long before he was in office.

I have no problem with ANY country deciding who can and cannot enter said country and by what means. I am sick and tired of people thinking they are entitled to something when they are not. If you want to be an American, God bless you....you are more than welcome to come...THRU PROPER CHANNELS! I also think that we MUST protect our borders now more than ever. I am stupified to understand why our borders weren't locked down after 9/11. THAT would have been the appropriate time....not 5 years later. Ugh...drives me nuts just thinking about it.

I also don't think this is an issue of racism but more an issue of entitlement. I'm an American and with that comes certain responsibilities AND privileges as with ANY country. I DO resent people coming into this country and expecting those same entitlements without taking on any of the responsibilities. And instead, using up my tax dollars (for health care, etc) while sending their money back to their country. And coming here to give birth so their child can be a legal citizen....there is just something SO wrong with this but I blame our politicians. Why wouldn't people take advantage of a flawed system that benefits them?

The immigration situation is highly complex because we allowed it to be. We have a mess on our hands and it's our own fault. The illegal immigrants will be the ones to pay for this country's unwillingness to enforce her own laws, but THAT is the risk they took when they chose to come here illegally. What a sad mess with no winners.


And for the record, lest I be called a racist, my mother's maiden name is "Valenzuela" and my grandfather spoke English as a second language.

[Healing Oil]

It shouldn't matter. Helping our neighbor is what matters. That's what Jesus WOULD do!
I dont presume to know what Jesus would do or not. Im not Jesus.

There are bridges for the Mexicans to cross, but many of them choose to go around them.

[Jesuslove]

I dont presume to know what Jesus would do or not. Im not Jesus.

There are bridges for the Mexicans to cross, but many of them choose to go around them.
Saying you don't know what Jesus would do, to me is a cop out. God gave us brains to use, to think. I know you are not Jesus (per your comment), but you (much like any of us here) have opinions on a wide variety of social issues and trying to understand what Jesus would do or think is critical to how we respond to others.

[mat1583]

First of all, it seems like a lot of people are labeling every single illegal immigrant as a drain to the society, sucking up tax dollars, and getting free health care.

STOP

There are illegal immigrants who work jobs in which the employer takes out the taxes before the paycheck ever reaches the employee. Not every single illegal immigrant is some dirtbag that doesn't pay taxes, and shouldn't be treated like one.

Secondly, if you have a problem with immigrants receiving free health care and not paying for it through taxes, why not get rid of government welfare altogether and address the real problem? The welfare system is not just abused by illegal immigrants, it's also abused by our own citizens. It creates people who lack responsibility because they can have the government take care of everything else for them. Here's an example....

For your whole life until age 21, your parents always washed your clothes, cleaned your dishes, drove you places, bought food, clothing, gave you a home. You had come to depend on them for that long for everything and never had a job. One day, your parents decide to totally cut every bit of funding and help. What do you do? Well, if you learned no responsibility to the whole time, it's possible you could be homeless for a while. Or maybe even if they housed you, you didn't have enough money for food. What do you do now? You get off your butt and get a job so you can provide for yourself. you start buying your own clothes, your own food, and eventually get your own apartment. Wow, amazing! You learned a bit of responsibility even when your parents stopped providing for you!

And to those still worried about the tax issue: Make it easier for immigrants to become legal and to obtain a ssn, then you will have more of them beginning to pay income taxes. Why are so many of them doing it illegally right now? Because it is so hard for them to become legal in the first place, thus they don't make an attempt to obtain a social security card, and thus don't pay taxes. And has it ever occured to anyone that the employers should also be at fault? Maybe they should be punished for hiring illegals in the first place.

p.s. The farmers hire illegals because Americans don't want to get their hands dirty and do a little fruit picking. They want better jobs, so nobody is left but the immigrants.

-washboard

[Jesuslove]

First of all, it seems like a lot of people are labeling every single illegal immigrant as a drain to the society, sucking up tax dollars, and getting free health care.
STOP
There are illegal immigrants who work jobs in which the employer takes out the taxes before the paycheck ever reaches the employee. Not every single illegal immigrant is some dirtbag that doesn't pay taxes, and shouldn't be treated like one.

Secondly, if you have a problem with immigrants receiving free health care and not paying for it through taxes, why not get rid of government welfare altogether and address the real problem? The welfare system is not just abused by illegal immigrants, it's also abused by our own citizens. It creates people who lack responsibility because they can have the government take care of everything else for them. Here's an example....

For your whole life until age 21, your parents always washed your clothes, cleaned your dishes, drove you places, bought food, clothing, gave you a home. You had come to depend on them for that long for everything and never had a job. One day, your parents decide to totally cut every bit of funding and help. What do you do? Well, if you learned no responsibility to the whole time, it's possible you could be homeless for a while. Or maybe even if they housed you, you didn't have enough money for food. What do you do now? You get off your butt and get a job so you can provide for yourself. you start buying your own clothes, your own food, and eventually get your own apartment. Wow, amazing! You learned a bit of responsibility even when your parents stopped providing for you!

And to those still worried about the tax issue: Make it easier for immigrants to become legal and to obtain a ssn, then you will have more of them beginning to pay income taxes. Why are so many of them doing it illegally right now? Because it is so hard for them to become legal in the first place, thus they don't make an attempt to obtain a social security card, and thus don't pay taxes. And has it ever occured to anyone that the employers should also be at fault? Maybe they should be punished for hiring illegals in the first place.

p.s. The farmers hire illegals because Americans don't want to get their hands dirty and do a little fruit picking. They want better jobs, so nobody is left but the immigrants.

-washboard
Thanks.. Very well put!

[cheewiee]

p.s. The farmers hire illegals because Americans don't want to get their hands dirty and do a little fruit picking. They want better jobs, so nobody is left but the immigrants.

WRONG Farmers hire illegals because Americans don't want to get paid less than minimum wage doing those jobs....

[mat1583]

WRONG Farmers hire illegals because Americans don't want to get paid less than minimum wage doing those jobs....

better jobs, better pay:same thing. Sheesh!

Interesting article on the issue (of hiring illegals for farm work):
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4015411

And some exerpts from it (but please read the whole article ;)):

"Growers and contractors like Rodriguez say the root of the problem is a federal immigration policy that is broken. What is needed, they say, is a guest worker program that will allow the immigrant laborers they need into the county."

"They hope to avoid what they're predicting is a 20 percent shortfall in pickers this winter. Last year, when the Border Patrol started a crackdown that snared illegal workers on the buses, farmers protested. They say the crackdowns scared away workers."

"Kyl is the co-sponsor of one immigration reform bill that would require illegal aliens to return home and then apply for a guest worker program. But he said he doesn't oppose a program allowing temporary Mexican workers, such as the ones the farmers are proposing, because it is short term.

"For them the pay is not bad, so if we can take advantage of that labor supply when we need it and not make people permanent legal residents, because they're not permanently needed, we should come with a way to do it," Kyl said."

-washboard

[ObiShawn]

Jesuslove, your bias is shown before people even read your first post.
You should rename the topic to make it actually accurate. it should read: Illegal Immigration: WWJD.ObiShawn, your bias always comes through in your posts. No offense taken.And exactly what bias is that? You can't accuse me of a political bias. As a matter of fact, I challenge you to. Check out my post history.

If I have any bias at all it is a bias against those pushing a bias.


Why don't you answer your own question? You toss it out there for all of us "conservative republicans" to answer, knowing that we usually disagree with your political perspective and for why? Just so you can argue?

Why don't you answer the question yourself and back it up with scripture. It will make you look less like a troll.Obi...don't be a hater.. Jesus taught us to love our neighbor. Stop trying to politicize this issue.I'm not being a hater :rolleyes: . I'm challenging you to answer the very question you have handed the boards. the most you have done is quote some one and say, "I agree!" Why don't you actually state what you stand for.

And show me exactly where I have politicized the issue. If I'm not mistaken, you are the one that said -
I think GWB would be the first one booted by Jesus. And I don't think Jesus would support national sovereignty.


To me, strengthening the Mexican economy would be the best way.In theory, yes, this would be ideal. But it shouldn't be America's responsiblity to do it and especially not on American soil, since illegal immigrants do not pay taxes to either the US or Mexico.

[mat1583]

In theory, yes, this would be ideal. But it shouldn't be America's responsiblity to do it and especially not on American soil, since illegal immigrants do not pay taxes to either the US or Mexico.

While I agree with the first part of your post (Americans shouldn't be responsible for the wealth of another nation), your second statement is so broad that it carries no factual value to me. Which illegal immigrants? How many illegal immigrants? Certainly not all. Which illegals don't pay taxes to Mexico? How many? Which taxes? All people pay taxes, whether it's in the form of income tax, excise taxes, food tax, service, etc.

-washboard

[ObiShawn]

Well, if you read my post in the context of this whole thread, then it should be obvious I am referring to the illegal Mexican immigrants.

[mat1583]

Well, if you read my post in the context of this whole thread, then it should be obvious I am referring to the illegal Mexican immigrants.

But once again, I addressed this earlier if you had read all of MY posts. Many illegal immigrants do in fact pay taxes including excise taxes, sales tax, and even income taxes. Not all illegal immigrants work jobs in which taxes aren't taken out before the paycheck is handed over. Therefore, your statement is not factual.

And, if you had read the article I posted, there groups of illegal immigrants in border states that are there temporarily just to work the crops across the border. They live permanently in Mexico for the cheaper cost of living, and DO pay taxes in Mexico and in the US.

-washboard

[ObiShawn]

Therefore, your statement is not factual.I concede, but you cannot say that it is true 100% of the time. Just because some do pay doesn't mean all do. And that is the point I am trying to make; if they are not paying taxes to either country then it hurts the economy of both.

[mat1583]

I concede, but you cannot say that it is true 100% of the time. Just because some do pay doesn't mean all do. And that is the point I am trying to make; if they are not paying taxes to either country then it hurts the economy of both.

Unless they never buy one single consumer good, never eat, and never buy gas, then all people (immigrants, illegal or not) pay taxes. There are two things certain about life: death and taxes.

-washboard

[ObiShawn]

I was referring to state and federal taxes. Not to mention medicare, which they benefit from even though most dont' contribute to it.

[Jesuslove]

I concede...
Strong words....

[Jesuslove]

I was referring to state and federal taxes. Not to mention medicare, which they benefit from even though most dont' contribute to it.
I doubt very much all illegals benefit from medicare shawni.

[mat1583]

I was referring to state and federal taxes. Not to mention medicare, which they benefit from even though most dont' contribute to it.

Sales and excise taxes fall under state taxes, and some excise taxes are federal taxes. I believe the only tax you could be partially truthful with is the federal income tax, which is really just the gov't stealing hard earned money from Americans anyway.

Steal: 1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

When did I ever give the government permission to take money I worked hard to earn to spend on projects and a war in which I do not support? hmmm, something is wrong here...

-washboard

[jwil59]

Well it would be hard to control another government. I suggest we offer tax breaks to companies that open up operations in Mexico AND pay Mexicans a fair wage. That's the kind of effort I feel we need to support.


Yeah that's the ticket, move the major corporations to Mexico and put a couple million American families out of work like NAFTA did. The only people who would benefit from that would be the corporations. I agree with this angle as a whole, but the Mexican government must lead the charge.

[jwil59]

[QUOTE=cheewiee]... :D

It is the consumer that is threatening domestic jobs... Consumers that demand the most goods for the lowest price are especially culpable. Dell outsources jobs because of the demand for cheap computers is VERY HIGH. It's the same reason Farm Co-Ops hire illegials, because consumers demand cheap tomatoes and lettuce...



QUOTE]

The price of tomatoes and lettuce has not decreased since the labor has been primarily performed my illegal immigrants. It has just been bigger profits for the fat cats. I do know Jesus would not exploit these immigrants for the sake of the almighty dollar, and that's what's happening in that area. JMO

[mat1583]

The price of tomatoes and lettuce has not decreased since the labor has been primarily performed my illegal immigrants. It has just been bigger profits for the fat cats. I do know Jesus would not exploit these immigrants for the sake of the almighty dollar, and that's what's happening in that area. JMO

Who are these fat cats you speak of? Having known many farmers, farming is hardly a profitable business. They hire illegals just to keep from losing whole crops because nobody is there to pick them. And guess what pays for lost crops? Government subsidies which taxpayers paid for.

-washboard

[jwil59]

Sales and excise taxes fall under state taxes, and some excise taxes are federal taxes. I believe the only tax you could be partially truthful with is the federal income tax, which is really just the gov't stealing hard earned money from Americans anyway.

Steal: 1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

When did I ever give the government permission to take money I worked hard to earn to spend on projects and a war in which I do not support? hmmm, something is wrong here...

-washboard

My friend, you gave them permission when you signed your tax form. The only way you can change the way it is spent is through your vote. We can all agree I think that paying taxes is Biblical.

This nation has yet to define this issue. Is it legal or humanitarian? I'm not sure if we can have it both ways.

The scripture you posted earlier from Leviticus says we should treat the strangers among us as we do our own. When our own break the law, they are punished by the government, which is also Biblical.

On the humanitarian side, these people can and do recieve entitlement funds and health care free.

[jwil59]

Who are these fat cats you speak of? Having known many farmers, farming is hardly a profitable business. They hire illegals just to keep from losing whole crops because nobody is there to pick them. And guess what pays for lost crops? Government subsidies which taxpayers paid for.

-washboard

I'm going to edit this in an effort not to offend anyone who may work for or be connected to some of these companies. Watch the news. Virginia just passed a new law punishing several of these corporations. Construction companies who pay at or near minimum wage for a 16 buck/hr job is a good start. They work these guys 14 hrs/day and provide their housing, usually 12 or so per apartment. They rent entire buildings in complexes, which is just a tax write off, stuff these folks in there and work their tounges out framing houses. It's sad. The immigrants live in poverty, which is still better than their home I suppose, and send the money home so their kin can get to the border. It's an endless cycle.

[jwil59]

Matt, it isn't the farmers I am speaking of. The truth is, any product is usually packaged and sold by a huge corporation. The farmers take about the same hit in this area the illegals do.

[ObiShawn]

Yep, I think Jesus would build bridges. Which is what America has done on paper but not in practice.

I do not think it is immoral for any country to demand that foreigners enter their country properly. What I find immoral is the lack of respect this country has shown for its own laws. For years we've turned a blind eye at illegal immigration for reasons that are probably far more complex than any of us realize and then all of a sudden we decide to enforce our own laws. We shot ourselves in the foot regarding illegal immigration, and while Bush's handling of this issue absolutely baffles me, the problem existed long before he was in office.

I have no problem with ANY country deciding who can and cannot enter said country and by what means. I am sick and tired of people thinking they are entitled to something when they are not. If you want to be an American, God bless you....you are more than welcome to come...THRU PROPER CHANNELS! I also think that we MUST protect our borders now more than ever. I am stupified to understand why our borders weren't locked down after 9/11. THAT would have been the appropriate time....not 5 years later. Ugh...drives me nuts just thinking about it.

I also don't think this is an issue of racism but more an issue of entitlement. I'm an American and with that comes certain responsibilities AND privileges as with ANY country. I DO resent people coming into this country and expecting those same entitlements without taking on any of the responsibilities. And instead, using up my tax dollars (for health care, etc) while sending their money back to their country. And coming here to give birth so their child can be a legal citizen....there is just something SO wrong with this but I blame our politicians. Why wouldn't people take advantage of a flawed system that benefits them?

The immigration situation is highly complex because we allowed it to be. We have a mess on our hands and it's our own fault. The illegal immigrants will be the ones to pay for this country's unwillingness to enforce her own laws, but THAT is the risk they took when they chose to come here illegally. What a sad mess with no winners.


And for the record, lest I be called a racist, my mother's maiden name is "Valenzuela" and my grandfather spoke English as a second language.

Very well said.

[mat1583]

My friend, you gave them permission when you signed your tax form. The only way you can change the way it is spent is through your vote. We can all agree I think that paying taxes is Biblical.


I gave them no such permission my friend. If I did not fill out my tax form and report my income, that is not denying them permission. If I decide I don't want to fill out my tax form, the IRS will send a policeman to my apartment and try to arrest me by force and gunpoint. I have no choice in the matter, no way to deny them permission.

Yes, we are to abide by the laws of the land and obey them. That does not mean all laws are "Biblical" or right. Do you think Jim Crowe laws were also "Biblical"? I mean, we're supposed to abide by the laws of the land, right?



The scripture you posted earlier from Leviticus says we should treat the strangers among us as we do our own. When our own break the law, they are punished by the government, which is also Biblical.


But instead of welcoming them and treating the strangers among us as our own, Americans are showing their bigotry by criminalizing those we should treat as our own just because they came from a different country. Do you also think this is Biblical?


-washboard

[ObiShawn]

Americans are showing their bigotry by criminalizing those we should treat as our own just because they came from a different country. Do you also think this is Biblical?If it is infact bigotry, by no means is it biblical, moral, and to my understanding, legal (would it not constitute a hate crime?)

But it is a mighty bold statement to say that we are bigots. They criminalize themselves by entering in the improper way, thus the term illegal immigrants.

Should we not (as a nation) have a proper way of accepting immigrants or should we just let who ever come in as they will?

[Grank]

It shouldn't matter. Helping our neighbor is what matters. That's what Jesus WOULD do!
way to go. thanks for that keen insight. Jesus helps people... very insightful. i believe we're all in accordance there. i believe the debate is in what way are we to help and when do we go from helping others to hurting ourselves? saying jesus would help is like a politician saying they'll lower taxes. sounds good, but how are you going about it?

[jrmitch]

If it is infact bigotry, by no means is it biblical, moral, and to my understanding, legal (would it not constitute a hate crime?)

But it is a mighty bold statement to say that we are bigots. They criminalize themselves by entering in the improper way, thus the term illegal immigrants.

Should we not (as a nation) have a proper way of accepting immigrants or should we just let who ever come in as they will?I don't think it's such a bold statement to say we're culturally bigoted regarding immigration when you examine our track record. As I stated previously I think the only major difference between the current situation and previous waves of mass immigration is the legality issue. But the attitude of intolerance and contempt doesn't seem to have changed much in the last 150 years.

[Healing Oil]

Saying you don't know what Jesus would do, to me is a cop out. God gave us brains to use, to think. I know you are not Jesus (per your comment), but you (much like any of us here) have opinions on a wide variety of social issues and trying to understand what Jesus would do or think is critical to how we respond to others.
I dont go around stating my opinions as fact and then using what I think Jesus would do as my confirmation. You are trying to force your opinion down the throats of everyone here and when we ask you to back it up and elaborate instead of just stating it, you use the whole "it is what Jesus would do". It's not as black and white to me as it is to you.

These drive by threads are starting to become trollish.

[jwil59]

I gave them no such permission my friend. If I did not fill out my tax form and report my income, that is not denying them permission. If I decide I don't want to fill out my tax form, the IRS will send a policeman to my apartment and try to arrest me by force and gunpoint. I have no choice in the matter, no way to deny them permission.

Yes, we are to abide by the laws of the land and obey them. That does not mean all laws are "Biblical" or right. Do you think Jim Crowe laws were also "Biblical"? I mean, we're supposed to abide by the laws of the land, right?



But instead of welcoming them and treating the strangers among us as our own, Americans are showing their bigotry by criminalizing those we should treat as our own just because they came from a different country. Do you also think this is Biblical?


-washboard

I have nothing to add to the tax bit other than what God says in His Word. Figure it out for yourself.

I do welcome them. many of my youngest son's friends are hispanic, some legal, some not. I have taken them fishing, camping, bowling, etc for many years. However, I am not the Government and am not charged with the God given duty of enforcing the law. I think Congress is trying to find some middle ground and I hope they do.

Jim Crowe???? How does that apply? To call this a bigotry issue is nothing more than making light of the sacrafice paid during true acts of bigotry like the civil rights movement or the events of WW2. I guess you might be a little young to remember the acts of true bigotry commited in our great state about 40 years ago but I lived it, not a pretty sight. I've seen bigotry and this issue ain't it.

[SacredHeart]

While I fervantly disagree that the issue at hand has its roots in bigotry, many here seem to be implying that bigotry is a condition of the American heart and not a condition of the human heart. Bigotry did NOT start in this country nor will it end here. To infer that people who speak out against illegal immigration are bigots is such a cop-out and really quite despicable. How easy it is to use the bigotry card and then watch people back pedal. I am against illegal immigration; I am for legal immigration--neither makes me a bigot.

[ObiShawn]

But the attitude of intolerance and contempt doesn't seem to have changed much in the last 150 years.That is a matter of perspective, not fact. It is true that our track record isn't all that impressive nor is it anything to be proud of. But we have come a long way from the civil rights era and WWII and communism. Without a doubt, there are some that are racially motivated, but it is inaccurate to say that we are as a whole.

To me it isn't a matter of race, it is about them becoming US citizens the legal and correct way.

[jwil59]

That is a matter of perspective, not fact. It is true that our track record isn't all that impressive nor is it anything to be proud of. But we have come a long way from the civil rights era and WWII and communism. Without a doubt, there are some that are racially motivated, but it is inaccurate to say that we are as a whole.

To me it isn't a matter of race, it is about them becoming US citizens the legal and correct way.


You are right Obi. For me, it's not race. I feel my position does not dishonor the illegals, as much as it honors the people who have done it the right way.

[jrmitch]

That is a matter of perspective, not fact. It is true that our track record isn't all that impressive nor is it anything to be proud of. But we have come a long way from the civil rights era and WWII and communism. Without a doubt, there are some that are racially motivated, but it is inaccurate to say that we are as a whole....I can agree with that to an extent, but I've also seen (at least locally) the bigot angle played on both a social and political level. If I said that most of those calling for immigration reform here on the boards are bigots - which I don't think I did - that was unintentional, and I apologize to any whom I offended. But much of the rhetoric I'm hearing mirrors the same dialogue that was used against the Chinese in the late 1800s and the Irish and Italians in the early part of the 20th century. The only difference is that in those former cases we changed our immigration laws after that particular wave of immigration, where here the laws are already in place. But while we now have the law on our side, the fear of losing jobs to people from another culture is nothing new and has been an excuse many in our country have used against immigration for over 100 years.

[jrmitch]

While I fervantly disagree that the issue at hand has its roots in bigotry, many here seem to be implying that bigotry is a condition of the American heart and not a condition of the human heart. Bigotry did NOT start in this country nor will it end here. To infer that people who speak out against illegal immigration are bigots is such a cop-out and really quite despicable. How easy it is to use the bigotry card and then watch people back pedal. I am against illegal immigration; I am for legal immigration--neither makes me a bigot.SacredHeart, I agree that anyone supporting legal immigration is not a bigot for doing so (I support it as well). However, if you go back and look at the way the Irish and Italians were treated as legal immigrants in the great wave of immigration right after the turn of the 20th century you'll find that the same kind of intolerance we're hearing from some residents of this country - including some of the same logic - was also used then. While I agree that bigotry is a universal condition of the human heart, it's also something that our country has consistently displayed towards each great wave of immigration during the last 150 years. And that comes back to the original question of this thread, which was what Jesus would do. While I don't know how He would have handled things such as border security and guest worker programs, I do know that He would have valued the lives of those in this country illegaly as much as He does any of us. That's been my main argument all along: some of those involved in this debate have become so arrogant in our legitimacy as citizens that we've lost the ability to extend grace and compassion to those who are illegal residents of this country.

[Mr.Elwood]

Maybe it’s just me…

Jesus changed minds and hearts. He did not politically debate issues like this. He gave us the Word of the Father to KNOW what is right through listening to the Holy Ghost.

We are to obey the laws of the men elected to govern us unless those laws contradict the fundamental and moral absolutes we live by in the Bible. We might not agree with the laws in place, or being discussed, but I do not see a moral argument that needs to be railed against on Biblical fundamentals.

While it's nice to look compassionate and act offended, what purpose is being served by these threads like this and debates like this? Unless you are going to be a single issue voter -or- give all your money to a immigrant poverty program -or- go stand on the border -or- some other form a ACTIVE immigrant work in the argument, all this posturing is disrespectful to the One you claim to follow.

IF I read my Bible correctly.. Jesus would give them the Word, some food and clothes and sent them about THEIR business. Those immigrants, now fresh with God’s word, would then be responsible (with full knowledge of right and wrong) for their own actions. They would now understand that their choices will have repercussions no matter how important and desperate a choice it is. (Example: protest for workers and jobs and be jailed in Mexico– or come across the border illegally and look for work and potentially be deported…etc.)

See.. it’s nice to put your nobility heart on you internet sleeve and get all righteous and try to prove how morally martyred your heart is by things out of your grasp, but it begs the question: "why I constantly see these debates in here, and what if any good has ever come out of them except offense and disagreement?".

What would Jesus do with all of us who continue to engage is these frivolous debates?

[Jesuslove]

way to go. thanks for that keen insight. Jesus helps people... very insightful. i believe we're all in accordance there. i believe the debate is in what way are we to help and when do we go from helping others to hurting ourselves? saying jesus would help is like a politician saying they'll lower taxes. sounds good, but how are you going about it?
If you read back through my comments instead of injecting sarcasm into the debate, you would see that I have some solutions.

[Jesuslove]

I dont go around stating my opinions as fact and then using what I think Jesus would do as my confirmation. You are trying to force your opinion down the throats of everyone here and when we ask you to back it up and elaborate instead of just stating it, you use the whole "it is what Jesus would do". It's not as black and white to me as it is to you.

These drive by threads are starting to become trollish.
I am not trying to force my opinion on anyone OIL. I never said it was a black and white isse... that's why I posted the question in the first place. I also came up with possible solutions to end illegal immigration if you read back through the thread.

Furthermore, this is not a drive by trollish thread. I posed a legitimate question. You are like an trollish attack dog challenging everything I say without reading back through what I've written. Frankly your comments have added no value to this thread; they have only been criticisms of me. That's old and boring.

[Jesuslove]

See.. it’s nice to put your nobility heart on you internet sleeve and get all righteous and try to prove how morally martyred your heart is by things out of your grasp, but it begs the question: "why I constantly see these debates in here, and what if any good has ever come out of them except offense and disagreement?".

What would Jesus do with all of us who continue to engage is these frivolous debates?
This board is called Current Events / Hot Topics. I thought the purpose of this board was to debate social topics of the day, not to engage in bashing. As one who has been bashed often for being in the minority position, it's not easy. But I think healthy debates on issues helps us all gain a better understanding of these issues... there is something we can all learn.

[Mr.Elwood]

This board is called Current Events / Hot Topics. I thought the purpose of this board was to debate social topics of the day, not to engage in bashing. As one who has been bashed often for being in the minority position, it's not easy. But I think healthy debates on issues helps us all gain a better understanding of these issues... there is something we can all learn.
And yet… although not directed at you alone, you take the opportunity to lift the cross and carry it yourself.

And of course find yourself not agreeing, and defending yourself, against my statement/question that was not meant as a personal attack, but rather a general observation from a person that has been here reading these threads for years.

At some point we have all be singled out in one form or another for rude/boorish/hurtful actions by another group of people. It is either by choice of our own beliefs, or because of the idiocy of someone else’s beliefs…... it just a fact of life. Being a victim is not a badge to be worn as a battle commemorative to pull out like some veteran when you need to give yourself credibility in a opinion based debate. The sooner we all get past using “having been a victim of (insert you own martyrdom qualifier here), so I know what I’m talking about…etc”. then maybe we can get to constructive discussions about gathering together to actually make a difference in others lives for the glory of God, and not just arguing to justify out own actions. I have been around here for a while and I don’t see a single person with a different view than the one they had 4 years ago..

But.. rather than continue to argue the obvious.. I think I'll go read a book instead.

Peace and happy typing everyone..:D

[ObiShawn]

. . . . this is not a drive by trollish thread. I posed a legitimate question. And it just so happens to be the 6th immigration/border control topic on the first page of the Hot Topics form. My point? Why not continue the discussion in one of the other 5 topics? I hope I'm wrong, but maybe it is because you have a personal agenda you are trying to push?


You are like an trollish attack dog challenging everything I say without reading back through what I've written.I gotta say, for me, it is because of things you have written that I post questions that challenge you. I understand there is a fine line between challenging a person's statements and trolling, it is determined by the heart of the one doing the challenging and that motive doesn't always come across clear on the internet.

Frankly your comments have added no value to this thread; they have only been criticisms of me. That's old and boring.You know, I could understand how you might think that way of Healing Oil, but the only time you ever engage her in any form of conversation is right here in Hot Topics. My point is that you only see her when she is debating. You don't see the other side of her personality. If you had, you would know that she is not being trollish to you but just asking honest questions. And the nature of honsty, especially when presented in a blunt fashion, seems rude.

[Jesuslove]

And it just so happens to be the 6th immigration/border control topic on the first page of the Hot Topics form. My point? Why not continue the discussion in one of the other 5 topics? I hope I'm wrong, but maybe it is because you have a personal agenda you are trying to push?.
Like what? I have no personal agenda.

You know, I could understand how you might think that way of Healing Oil, but the only time you ever engage her in any form of conversation is right here in Hot Topics. My point is that you only see her when she is debating. You don't see the other side of her personality. If you had, you would know that she is not being trollish to you but just asking honest questions. And the nature of honsty, especially when presented in a blunt fashion, seems rude.
Most of my time on this forum is on Current Events because I enjoy current events. I post on other topics too though. Healing Oil has historically challenged me. I don't go after her like she goes after me. There is no need to engage her on other issues in other parts of this forum as I don't go trolling around looking for her posts.

Not sure what you mean by your last sentence.

[Jesuslove]

And yet… although not directed at you alone, you take the opportunity to lift the cross and carry it yourself..
Nah.. I'm no martyr. I defend my beliefs, which happen to be in the minority on this board.

But.. rather than continue to argue the obvious.. I think I'll go read a book instead.
Happy Reading

[ObiShawn]

If I said that most of those calling for immigration reform here on the boards are bigots - which I don't think I did - that was unintentional, and I apologize to any whom I offended. I know in this quote you were talking to all the members of this board, not just me, but I just wanted to say that nothing you've said offended me. You almost always do an excellent job of making eloquent posts, or at least diplomatic, non-accusing posts.

There is no need to engage her on other issues in other parts of this forum as I don't go trolling around looking for her posts. I didn't say you did follow her around trolling her. I was saying that since you do not talk to her in other settings, you haven't gotten to see that she is just an honest person and that she isn't singling you out. That was my point. You haven't experienced the "non-debating Healing Oil."

Not sure what you mean by your last sentence.What is meant was that some people just have a straight forward way of speaking. It doesn't mean they are correct in what they are saying, it just means that they are just laying out what they say in the most honest manner they know how. And a lot of times honesty seems rude. If your (hypothetical?) wife asks you if she looks fat and you say, "Yes," - you didn't say that to insult her, but that is how she took it. You were just being honest.

My point is just because some people have been posting honest opinions and honest questions that may challenge things you have said, that doesn't mean they are trolling you. Like I said previously, there is a fine line between trolling and challenging a person. Just because some one disagrees with you doesn't mean they are attacking you.

[Healing Oil]

And it just so happens to be the 6th immigration/border control topic on the first page of the Hot Topics form. My point? Why not continue the discussion in one of the other 5 topics? I hope I'm wrong, but maybe it is because you have a personal agenda you are trying to push?


I gotta say, for me, it is because of things you have written that I post questions that challenge you. I understand there is a fine line between challenging a person's statements and trolling, it is determined by the heart of the one doing the challenging and that motive doesn't always come across clear on the internet.

You know, I could understand how you might think that way of Healing Oil, but the only time you ever engage her in any form of conversation is right here in Hot Topics. My point is that you only see her when she is debating. You don't see the other side of her personality. If you had, you would know that she is not being trollish to you but just asking honest questions. And the nature of honsty, especially when presented in a blunt fashion, seems rude.

Thank you Obi, I truly appreciate that :)

Jesuslove- Your "initial" question in the first post did not come across as a genuine question seeking genuine opinions. Your bias and opinion on the issue were written all over that post, even if it wasnt in so many words. You may not think Ive added any value to this discussion, fine. I wont lose any sleep over this thread :)

By the way, if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, Ive only debated illegal immigration with you. I cant recall any other issues we have discussed here. So to say that I have historically challenged everything you've said is stretching it a bit, I think. This is also the first thread in the CE/HT forum that Ive posted in since a little while ago.

[Jesuslove]

Thank you Obi, I truly appreciate that :)

Jesuslove- Your "initial" question in the first post did not come across as a genuine question seeking genuine opinions. Your bias and opinion on the issue were written all over that post, even if it wasnt in so many words. You may not think Ive added any value to this discussion, fine. I wont lose any sleep over this thread :)
This is also the first thread in the CE/HT forum that Ive posted in since a little while ago.
What specifically in my initial post came across as bias? I asked a SIMPLE QUESTION.
You challenged me on another thread about immigration recently.

[Healing Oil]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?

It shouldn't matter. Helping our neighbor is what matters. That's what Jesus WOULD do!
I honestly dont think you were asking us our opinions on what we really think Jesus would do in this situation. You asked us what Jesus would do, and then you tell us what he would do. You stated it as if it were fact when it is really only your opinion.


And about the other illegal immigration thread, it is exactly what I said. You and I have only discussed illegal immigration. I dont remember speaking about any other issue with you other than this one. So your comment that I have historically challenged you holds little water. By the way, what is wrong with challenging someone's posts or opinions? Arent you doing that with ours? Just wondering :confused:

[SacredHeart]

SacredHeart, I agree that anyone supporting legal immigration is not a bigot for doing so (I support it as well). However, if you go back and look at the way the Irish and Italians were treated as legal immigrants in the great wave of immigration right after the turn of the 20th century you'll find that the same kind of intolerance we're hearing from some residents of this country - including some of the same logic - was also used then. While I agree that bigotry is a universal condition of the human heart, it's also something that our country has consistently displayed towards each great wave of immigration during the last 150 years. And that comes back to the original question of this thread, which was what Jesus would do. While I don't know how He would have handled things such as border security and guest worker programs, I do know that He would have valued the lives of those in this country illegaly as much as He does any of us. That's been my main argument all along: some of those involved in this debate have become so arrogant in our legitimacy as citizens that we've lost the ability to extend grace and compassion to those who are illegal residents of this country.
Thank you so much for the gracious manner in which you presented your position--it is very much appreciated. :)

I agree with your post--bigotry does exist and, yes, I'm sure there are many people who are motivated by it, but, again, that doesn't mean that every person, or most people or even the political powers-that-be are motivated by it. I agree that compassion should be shown--love being the higher law--but I think where we part ways is in how that compassion is played out on a national/governmental level.

[Grank]

If you read back through my comments instead of injecting sarcasm into the debate, you would see that I have some solutions.
yes, this is clearly an either/or situation. i can either be sarcastic or i can read through your comments. i couldn't have done both. that's pure craziness...

i have yet to see a solution befitting both parties and i don't think Jesus would make a stand either way. He'd let the gov't do it's thing, He'd vote(i think He'd vote) and then He'd abide by the laws of the land. that's how Jesus rolls. so since we have laws in place what's wrong with making sure that they are enforced? why must the laws change? there's really no need for them to.

[Grank]

...bigotry...
"bigot" sounds funny.

it's not like we're make'n the illegals go pick cotton or build railroads, amirite? am i being a bigot if i don't let somebody into a country? it's not like we can let everybody in that wants to be here. space happens to be limited. it's like owning an apt building... there are only so many rooms to fill, you have to meet certain standards to become a tenent, you're gonna have to pay for it, etc. now to exclude somebody becasue of race would be not cool...but i hardly think that's the case here.

[Jesuslove]

i have yet to see a solution befitting both parties and i don't think Jesus would make a stand either way. He'd let the gov't do it's thing, He'd vote(i think He'd vote) and then He'd abide by the laws of the land. that's how Jesus rolls. so since we have laws in place what's wrong with making sure that they are enforced? why must the laws change? there's really no need for them to.
I think the solution benefitting both would be to foster the economy of Mexico so that Mexicans feel they can remain in Mexico, earn a decent wage, and live a decent life.

[ObiShawn]

I think the solution benefitting both would be to foster the economy of Mexico so that Mexicans feel they can remain in Mexico, earn a decent wage, and live a decent life.That is not an American responsibility. That would only hurt us as a nation even more than having the illegals over here already. We are doing well to keep our own economy running good, which has just happened in the past year.

Every news report I hear from Fox, CNN, ABC, and some others (in other words, both sides of the political bias) say that our economy has been doing better and better and that unemployment has been decreasing. We haven't been able to say that for years. It has taken the US however many years to get to this point and you think the solution to the illegal immigration problem is for the US to help increase the Mexican economy? I thank God you aren't the President.

The solution for the illegal immigration problem is for the US to enforce the immigration laws, create more if they are needed, and to beef up border security. That is not a racist statement. If people want to come over here, great and fine, I dont' blame them one bit, but they need to do it the right way.

since we have laws in place what's wrong with making sure that they are enforced? why must the laws change? there's really no need for them to.
JL, I'd like to see your answer to those questions grank asked.

[Mugirl04]

i don't know if anyone has touch on this but doesnt' the bible say support the government laws respect those in power

[ObiShawn]

i don't know if anyone has touch on this but doesnt' the bible say support the government laws respect those in powerOh, it has been touched on numerous times but people don't care to acknowledge it.

[Yippy]

Yes, but Mexicans don't have the same right to cross the border as they wish.
I was speaking in a spiritual sense back there. Also, some Christians risk life and limb answering the call to cross closed borders - not just open borders- to get the Word in...which is why I said as a Christian, I can cross borders...prayerfully or physically.

And it just so happens to be the 6th immigration/border control topic on the first page of the Hot Topics form. My point? Why not continue the discussion in one of the other 5 topics?
I am also wondering why we are all repeating ourselves in all of these threads. This thread had a different slant in the title but ended up the same old thread. I agree, Steve, that discussion is good, and I love hearing everyone's point of view, but right about now, I can tell you what each person is going to say about illegal immigration, who's going to confuse immigration with illegal immigration, who's going to get upset with whom, who's going to have personal attack issues, who's not going to read the whole thread...yada yada. Some people have had some really thoughtful things to say, which tend to get overshadowed by the squabbling, and it seems that no matter what a thread is titled it ends up the same. I doubt very seriously that everyone here is going to suddenly agree that we should open the borders and let everyone in without order. We all have agreed on so much..let's stop being so nitpicky and bring something fresh to the table.

[kiwisongbird]

:) :) :)

It's raining and we have poisonous centipedes in our garden :) :) :)

love you all :) :) :)
xxxxxxx

[bdfwinn]

*raises hand*

Leviticus 19:33-34

"When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

-washboard



Leviticus 19:20-22 (NIV)

20 “ ‘If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

matt. sorry but you cannot pick things out of the Levitical law to support your particular view with out accepting ALL of the Levitical law (which was given to Ancient Israel) If so then 20-22 infers that I can have slaves and have sex with my slaves as long as I pay her fiance'. and offer the proper burnt offering :(

I've been in NJ at a conference but I am baaaaaaack!
This thread caught my eye so I wanted to respond to that. I read most of the 7 pages I'll read more tomorrow.

Goodnite,
Bill

[Evanescence]

Immigration-WWJD?

First impeach Bush and Cheney... :D :D :D

Then he would

[Yippy]

:) :) :)

It's raining and we have poisonous centipedes in our garden :) :) :)

love you all :) :) :)
xxxxxxx
That's not what I had in mind.:)

[SacredHeart]

I am also wondering why we are all repeating ourselves in all of these threads. This thread had a different slant in the title but ended up the same old thread. I agree, Steve, that discussion is good, and I love hearing everyone's point of view, but right about now, I can tell you what each person is going to say about illegal immigration, who's going to confuse immigration with illegal immigration, who's going to get upset with whom, who's going to have personal attack issues, who's not going to read the whole thread...yada yada. Some people have had some really thoughtful things to say, which tend to get overshadowed by the squabbling, and it seems that no matter what a thread is titled it ends up the same. I doubt very seriously that everyone here is going to suddenly agree that we should open the borders and let everyone in without order. We all have agreed on so much..let's stop being so nitpicky and bring something fresh to the table.


We would all be wise to heed President Bush's words in his speech (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/15/washington/15text-bush.html) from a few nights ago:

America needs to conduct this debate on immigration in a reasoned and respectful tone. Feelings run deep on this issue — and as we work it out, all of us need to keep some things in mind. We cannot build a unified country by inciting people to anger, or playing on anyone's fears, or exploiting the issue of immigration for political gain. We must always remember that real lives will be affected by our debates and decisions, and that every human being has dignity and value no matter what their citizenship papers say.

[mat1583]

Leviticus 19:20-22 (NIV)

20 “ ‘If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

matt. sorry but you cannot pick things out of the Levitical law to support your particular view with out accepting ALL of the Levitical law (which was given to Ancient Israel) If so then 20-22 infers that I can have slaves and have sex with my slaves as long as I pay her fiance'. and offer the proper burnt offering :(

I've been in NJ at a conference but I am baaaaaaack!
This thread caught my eye so I wanted to respond to that. I read most of the 7 pages I'll read more tomorrow.

Goodnite,
Bill

So then why even have those books to begin with. Might as well burn all those pages, right?

What I posted is not LAW. It's what God said on how to treat those strangers around you from a different land. It was one of many paths to righteousness and holiness that God provided as a way to live one's life. Do you think we should just ignore the values that God found Holy in OT times just because the law side of it was done away with?

-washboard

[Yippy]

We would all be wise to heed President Bush's words in his speech (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/15/washington/15text-bush.html) from a few nights ago:
THanks for that, Pam.:)

I feel my position does not dishonor the illegals, as much as it honors the people who have done it the right way.
We seem to forget while discussing all this that there are actually people going through the process to come here legally.

[ObiShawn]

So then why even have those books to begin with. Might as well burn all those pages, right?Well, if we are gonna do that, let's throw Romans 13 in the fire as well.

[SacredHeart]

Awww...couldn't we just throw you in, instead?!? ;)

[ObiShawn]

Awww...couldn't we just throw you in, instead?!? ;)We could, but you wouldn't be able to handle the smell.

[SacredHeart]

We could, but you wouldn't be able to handle the smell.
I'm pretty sure I could work around that. :p

[kiwisongbird]

EEEeeeeeewwwwWWWW...... mind you, the smell's not too bad - they do that here all the time - mostly it just adds to the smog really :D :D

On a more serious note (although - it's true what I said - Thai people don't get buried and their crematorium's aren't like western ones!!).......

I really like what Bush said about the immmigration issue - I really don't know what Jesus would do. I think He would take each individual and/or family at face value because that seems to be His track record.

I kind of like the idea of America helping Mexico to kind of 'upgrade' - sounds like a great idea. America helps other countries in the world - maybe that would be a good solution - enable Mexico to be better and have more jobs so people would stay there more.

I guess corruption would be a big issue if aid was extended - that's an issue with many countries - how do you ensure that the money gets to the people it is intended for? Huge problem.

:) :) :)..... and the centipedes are really horrible - not to mention all the other stuff out there!!!!! :D

[Yippy]

I kind of like the idea of America helping Mexico to kind of 'upgrade' - sounds like a great idea. America helps other countries in the world - maybe that would be a good solution - enable Mexico to be better and have more jobs so people would stay there more.

I guess corruption would be a big issue if aid was extended - that's an issue with many countries - how do you ensure that the money gets to the people it is intended for? Huge problem.


A corrupt government IS a huge problem. I would love to hear a solution to Mexico's problems. I don't think that handing them money or moving US jobs to Mexico are the answers. The infrastructure of Mexico needs to change. But I know very little of how international politics works. I just know that Viggo Mortensen wears a UN t-shirt and that some of my friends think that the UN is corrupt...;) :p Other than that, I don't know how the US could "fix" Mexico's problems, and I don't think that the US is responsible for Mexico's citizens unless Mexico wants to be the 51st state...

Keep in mind that the US is not the CHURCH...I'm sure my international Christian friends would agree.

[kiwisongbird]

I agree with the comment the US isn't the CHURCH - but as a non-American I am often puzzled about how the US government decides which countries to 'help' and which to not 'help' ??

Wouldn't it make sense for them to 'help' a country so close to them that is affecting them so badly??

Would Mexico want to become a 51st state? Would that muck up their system too much?

and... Vigo - I used to think that he was sooooo lovely until I saw 'him' in reality and not as Aragorn!!!!!! :) :) :eek: funny looking dude! :)

[Jason]

Would Mexico want to become a 51st state?


No. In fact, many Mexicans want some of our states back, like Arizona.

[kiwisongbird]

Ah, ok - so maybe you should give it back then :p :p did you guys buy it? did they give it to you? did you guys nick it off them? :D :D

[Jason]

Ah, ok - so maybe you should give it back then :p :p did you guys buy it? did they give it to you? did you guys nick it off them? :D :D

The U.S. bought it.

[jwil59]

Can we keep Texas?

I'm just sayin.............

[Yippy]

Can we keep Texas?

I'm just sayin.............
Is Texas a state?:confused: I thought it was a country...:p

[Jason]

Is Texas a state?:confused: I thought it was a country...:p

Key word: was :p

[kiwisongbird]

Oh, I thought it was Taaacksus!!! :) Well, you learn something every day don't you!!!!! I'll have to change the dictionary on my computer! :) :) :)

Jason, how much did the US pay for Arizona? I wonder if the Mexicans invested it wisely?? :) :) If they did it would be paying pretty high interest by now wouldn't it??? :) :) :)

[Jason]

James Gadsden was appointed U.S. Minister to Mexico and instructed to purchase, from Mexico, a strip of land south of the Gila River and lying in what is now southwestern New Mexico and southern Arizona. The Gadsden Purchase formalized the deal, providing Mexico with $10,000,000, the United States with 45,535 square miles of land and a clarified the U.S./Mexico boundary. The Gadsden Purchase also provided James Gadsden with a route for his transcontinental railroad.

From:
http://www.netstate.com/states/intro/az_intro.htm

[Jason]

This was $10,000,000 in 1853.

[kiwisongbird]

Whoooooo....... someone got a nice little amount of money to spend didn't they??? That would certainly have accrued some interest by now!!!!

Trouble with things like that is usually the 'people' don't benefit greatly from it do they?

I wouldn't mind selling my bit of land in NZ for that amount :D :D

[jwil59]

$10,000,000 as in million in 1853 is equal to a gizzilion now. Think we got our money's worth? A lot of desert and the Cardinals......Sounds like a ripoff!!!!!


It's just a joke.........

"waits for the flood of alabama jokes"

[mikedevilsfan]

If Jesus were here in America today, do you think he'd be building bridges to Mexico or putting up fences?

This is a good question and everyone who reads it must ask themselves what is their purpose in life is-
A. To have secure borders and a predominitly white culture
or
B. To invite all to come and hear the message of Christ.
The answer to your question JL is found in the scripture--Jesus never turned anyone away. Only pharaisees and lovers of mammon consider this.
Michael

[Yippy]

This is a good question and everyone who reads it must ask themselves what is their purpose in life is-
A. To have secure borders and a predominitly white culture
or
That is probably the most ridiculous statement I have read in this "discussion." As a Christian, our purpose is to act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with our God. The purpose of the US is to uphold the Constitution and protect the rights of its citizens, among other things. So, what would you tell a Mexican American who has come here legally when he tells you that he is opposed to an open border and wants the gov't to enforce immigration laws? You can't pull the race card then.
B. To invite all to come and hear the message of Christ.
The answer to your question JL is found in the scripture--Jesus never turned anyone away.

He didn't heal everybody either and he never became a political zealot demanding that the authorities follow God's law.

[SacredHeart]

I think your argument is weak, Mikesdevilsfan. My Bible says that the responsibility is ours to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28 :19)

[mikedevilsfan]

I think your argument is weak, Mikesdevilsfan. My Bible says that the responsibility is ours to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28 :19)

I say let all the people from Mexico come on over where the food is.
Michael

[SacredHeart]

I say let all the people from Mexico come on over where the food is.
Michael
No problem as long as you're buying. :p

[mikedevilsfan]

No problem as long as you're buying. :p

I do what i can.

[SacredHeart]

I do what i can.
And to do more would bankrupt you, just as it would bankrupt our country. Thanks for proving my point.

[mikedevilsfan]

And to do more would bankrupt you, just as it would bankrupt our country. Thanks for proving my point.

If it bankrupts me so be it. I find the more I give, the more God gives to me.
Try and remember- it's not my money- it's his.
Michael

[Evanescence]

This is a good question and everyone who reads it must ask themselves what is their purpose in life is-
A. To have secure borders and a predominitly white culture
or
B. To invite all to come and hear the message of Christ.
The answer to your question JL is found in the scripture--Jesus never turned anyone away. Only pharaisees and lovers of mammon consider this.
Michael

Mikey,

Jesus loved all, but also spoke of the law of the land and to respect the Govt...when it should be respected. Jesus wasn't about lawlessness and disorder, he was about FAIR treatment of all.

I think he would say that if people wnat to come here, they need to do it in a lawful, dignified manner. They can hear his teachings in Mexico, they want to come here for our food and money. Thats not fair to the ones who worked for it and/or folk that don't have it HERE either.

Balance my friend....balance!!

[mat1583]

And to do more would bankrupt you, just as it would bankrupt our country. Thanks for proving my point.

Oh yeah, just like the other millions of legal and illegal immigrants that have come into the US over the past 200 years, right?

-washboard

[bdfwinn]

So then why even have those books to begin with. Might as well burn all those pages, right?

What I posted is not LAW. -washboard It is a statute binding as a law to Ancient Israel. It's what God said TO ANCIENT ISRAEL on how to treat those strangers around you from a different land. It was one of many paths to righteousness today our pathway to righteousness is through impunity and holiness that God provided as a way to live one's life. Do you think we should just ignore the values that God found Holy in OT times just because the law side of it was done away with?

-washboard

We should never ignore scriptural value or values, but even the values in Leviticus do not apply to you and I. It is not about Old Covenant or New Covenant it is about the fact that Levitical Law was given to a Nation that does not exist any longer.
The Levitical law points us to grace. It reminds us that we need a Perfect Sacrifice. It just does not apply to us TODAY. What you quoted was a statute and was as binding as law for the Ancient Israelite. If you want to quote principle then the parable of the Good Samaritan would be better. I'm just saying it stands out to me to see Leviticus used to back up a point in the New Covenant Church. That's all. I have not ripped those pages from my bibles and I recommend that others do not as well.

I did not mean to get your hairs up washboard I was simply trying to be helpful. In my current study I am zeroing in on the details of the Levitical Law and its application by those who were bound to it.

I agree being nice to strangers is a good thing, it is found many places in scripture including Lev. Slavery however is bad and that too may be found in Lev. because God allowed it then. I think even using Leviticus one would have a hard time convincing Christians its okay to own slaves.

I hope you see my point. We can agree to disagree. Its all good, lets go fly fishing, the striped bass are in the James River right now!:)

Bill

[mat1583]

It is a statute binding as a law to Ancient Israel. TO ANCIENT ISRAEL today our pathway to righteousness is through impunity

We should never ignore scriptural value or values, but even the values in Leviticus do not apply to you and I. It is not about Old Covenant or New Covenant it is about the fact that Levitical Law was given to a Nation that does not exist any longer.
The Levitical law points us to grace. It reminds us that we need a Perfect Sacrifice. It just does not apply to us TODAY. What you quoted was a statute and was as binding as law for the Ancient Israelite. If you want to quote principle then the parable of the Good Samaritan would be better. I'm just saying it stands out to me to see Leviticus used to back up a point in the New Covenant Church. That's all. I have not ripped those pages from my bibles and I recommend that others do not as well.

I did not mean to get your hairs up washboard I was simply trying to be helpful. In my current study I am zeroing in on the details of the Levitical Law and its application by those who were bound to it.

I agree being nice to strangers is a good thing, it is found many places in scripture including Lev. Slavery however is bad and that too may be found in Lev. because God allowed it then. I think even using Leviticus one would have a hard time convincing Christians its okay to own slaves.

I hope you see my point. We can agree to disagree. Its all good, lets go fly fishing, the striped bass are in the James River right now!:)

Bill
Although this may be a little off topic, where in the new Testament is slavery prohibited by either the gospels or Jesus...or anyone for that matter?


Taken also from Chapter 19:
2:"Speak to all the congregation of the songs of Israel and say to them, 'You shall be holy, for I am the Lord your God.'
4:"Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods; I am the Lord your God"
10:"Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God."

11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive one another.
12 "'Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
13 "'Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. "'Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.
14 "'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.
15 "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.
16 "'Do not go about spreading slander among your people. "'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD.
17 "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

So do we also ignore these ways to live your life as well? I guess if the new testament doesn't lay it out, then we just have to make a guess about how God wants us to live our lives?

-washboard

[bdfwinn]

Wash,

You are missing my point. If you live by the Levitical law you must observe the Saturday Sabbath, and the annual Holy Days

Night To Be Much Remembered
Passover
Days of Unleavened Bread (1st Day High Day 7 days with no leavening and Last Day High Day)
Pentecost
Feast of Trumpets
Feast of Atonement (24 hours no food or water)
Feast of Tabernacles (Booths)
Last Great Day

You must also pay 3 tithes. Two tithes every year and a third tithe every 3 years in 7 year cycles.

Also there is that messy part about the animal sacrifices.

Every book in the OT in some way points to Christ. This is the prime value of the OT for the New Covenant Christian.

The nature of God does not change. We are admonished to live pleasing the same God that Israel was in similar ways but it is not the same for us as we are not Israelites. That is all I am saying. I would NEVER preach from Leviticus in an effort to describe what type of conduct God expects from us.


That is all I am saying. If you want to live by Levitical law you must live by ALL of it.
Bye Bye pork chops and shrimp. Say goodbye to Friday night football games and Saturday soccer with the kids.

While Leviticus offers great history and evidences of God's nature in dealing with man it is not applicable to us as mandated to the Ancient Israelites.

"That's all I have to say about that."
Bill

[kh294God]

*raises hand*

Leviticus 19:33-34

"When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

..and from Emma Lazarus, an exerpt from the poem that is on the Statue of Liberty:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I think that pretty much sums up my view on the whole immigration deal.

-washboard

well, what about the ones that come over and have no intention of making an honest living? what about the ones that plans to live here and not abide by the laws? what about the ones that intends to defraud our social security by buying fake ssn? what about the ones that intend to live in our country in quiet terrorist cells until it is made active and they bomb us again? I say close off the borders and the ones that are here give them a certain time period to become american citizens and if they don't deport them....we have to protect our country. we can still be christians and protect our borders.

Pete

[Griffan]

I haven't read the whole thread, so someone may have already said this, but here's my 2 cents:
I think Jesus would have loved the illegal immigrants. But you can love and still disagree. I don't think it's so much a political issue as it is a legal one. Jesus still wants people to follow the law of the land. Whether He supports governments or not, I still believe He wants people to follow the governing law. I think He would hate the sin, love the sinner. Show the immigrants love, caring, etc., but also encourage them to follow the law and immigrate the right way, red tape or not.

[mat1583]

If you want to live by Levitical law you must live by ALL of it.

Bill

In Levitical law, I find that there are some BIG distinctions between traditional law of the Jewish religion concerning worship, sacrifice pactices, and purity before God (like not eating shrimp, bacon, ways to sacrifice, washing of hands, etc.) and moral ways of living your life (like not stealing, not slandering, treating your neighbors as yourself, etc.)

In this distinction, I see a law that has been abolished, yet I still see the moral commandments of the time as holding weight in my life. I don't steal just because the new Testament says I shouldn't. I don't steal because those were areas of morality that God made clear to us in both the OT and NT. I'm not going to just call all OT morality issues irrelevant since we now have a new testament.

All things aside, take into account the scripture once again...

Leviticus 19:33-34

"When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

Now I ask you these things.

If a stranger resides in our land, should we do him wrong, treat him with contempt, and let bigotry enter our hearts? Should you not love him as yourself?

-washboard

[chrysanthemum]

perhaps we should ask a native american, ( they went through illegal immigration, and know the outcome)

[chrysanthemum]

well, what about the ones that come over and have no intention of making an honest living? what about the ones that plans to live here and not abide by the laws? what about the ones that intends to defraud our social security by buying fake ssn? what about the ones that intend to live in our country in quiet terrorist cells until it is made active and they bomb us again? I say close off the borders and the ones that are here give them a certain time period to become american citizens and if they don't deport them....we have to protect our country. we can still be christians and protect our borders.

Pete .....not making an honest living?,not abbide by the laws?, defraud the social security system?. they will fit in very well....jk

[Joshua24:15]

In Levitical law, I find that there are some BIG distinctions between traditional law of the Jewish religion concerning worship
By what objective measure do you determine which Levitical laws are only traditional and no longer apply versus which are moral and still need to be obeyed?
In this distinction, I see a law that has been abolished, yet I still see the moral commandments of the time as holding weight in my life. I don't steal just because the new Testament says I shouldn't.
Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'* This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'* On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

The 'law' of grace is much, much simpler. However, this is a very different topic more appropriate for the Word. Prolly should move it over there if we want to pursue it.
All things aside, take into account the scripture once again...

Leviticus 19:33-34

Now I ask you these things.

If a stranger resides in our land, should we do him wrong, treat him with contempt, and let bigotry enter our hearts? Should you not love him as yourself?
When a stranger enters your land and conducts himself in opposition to the laws of your country, demands full and unrestricted access to your social programs, fails to pay the full amount of taxes, and otherwise shirks the majority of duties of other citizens; do you then simply turn the other cheek?

I'm getting fairly fed up with the strawman of bigotry being tossed around. It has nothing to do with racism, people. Stop calling me a racist.

I'm as opposed to illegal immigrants from Germany and Switzerland as I am from Mexico and India. I don't give a rolling donut what color their skin is... if they didn't come into this nation BY THE MEANS ESTABLISHED IN LAW then they need to GET OUT.

It's all about national sovereignty and enforcing laws that are already in place.

Sheesh. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

[Jesuslove]

I say let all the people from Mexico come on over where the food is.
Michael
Amen Michael.. welcome back!

[Jesuslove]

No problem as long as you're buying. :p
I am buying.. I'm paying taxes.

[ObiShawn]

I am buying.. I'm paying taxes.Yeah, you are supporting them with your taxes, meanwhile, in stead of paying taxes themselves, they are sending their income back to Mexico. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

[Jesuslove]

Yeah, you are supporting them with your taxes, meanwhile, in stead of paying taxes themselves, they are sending their income back to Mexico. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
Obi... most illegal aliens in America do pay some taxes. they purchase goods and services in the US, thus they pay sales tax.

[ObiShawn]

Sales tax is but a fraction compared to what is taken from my pay check. But even if it were equivilent, it still wouldn't justify them being illegal.

[cheewiee]

Obi... most illegal aliens in America do pay some taxes. they purchase goods and services in the US, thus they pay sales tax.

Yes but so do you...

You pay..
Fica Tax
SS Tax
Sales Tax
Property Tax
School Tax
Estate Tax

Illegals pay...
Sales tax

and that is fair, How exactly?

[Joshua24:15]

Sales tax is but a fraction compared to what is taken from my pay check. But even if it were equivilent, it still wouldn't justify them being illegal.
Don't bother, Shawn. Nobody here wants to respond to the fact that illegal immigrants are here illegally, because acknowledging that would undermine their entire position.

It's been brought up several times and conviniently ignored.

[ObiShawn]

Don't bother, Shawn. Nobody here wants to respond to the fact that illegal immigrants are here illegally, because acknowledging that would undermine their entire position.

It's been brought up several times and conviniently ignored.

Yeah. You know, for a person that spends his time under KBall's thumb, you've got a lot of good points.

[Joshua24:15]

Yeah. You know, for a person that spends his time under KBall's thumb, you've got a lot of good points.
Being pwned like a n00b gives one a unique perspective of the world. :)

[Yippy]

It's been brought up several times and conviniently ignored.
I've noticed that.
I say let all the people from Mexico come on over where the food is.
Michael
Why stop with Mexico? There are many other nations who need food. The rest of the world's poor aren't any less important than Mexico's. Let's let everybody in and find out how long it will take for our resources to be depleted and we become a third world country. You're ignoring the fact that we already do send millions and millions outside our borders.

Why stop with the US? Why aren't you demanding that all nations with Christians live according to scripture and take in the needy of the world?

Must I say it again? The US is not the church. We in the US are privileged enough to live and work in a country where we can worship God freely and use our resources to help those in need. We can do that because we have laws that are in place to protect the country and its citizens.

Discrimination is making those from every other country but Mexico obey our immigration laws.

Mike, do you have children? Have you sold all to follow Him? Where are you living? Do you live in a house, drive a car? If all the homeless in your area knocked on your door, would you let them in and eat all your food and your children's food? What if they asked for all of your clothes and all of your money? Would you sacrifice your children's welfare for the sake of the poor in your area? This is what would happen if one followed your line of thinking. I think it's admirable that you care so much for the poor. But when the food runs out, what are the poor going to do then? And what are you going to do when you're one of them?

For a Christian, I think the answer lies in obeying what the Spirit would have you do in any given situation. For a nation, I think that the answer is far more complicated and one requiring a well thought out plan.

[Healing Oil]

I do what i can.No offense, Im sure you try, but you don't do everything that you can. If you did you wouldnt be living in the house that you live in, driving the car that you drive, or typing on the computer that you type on. If you really give all that you can, you would probably be living among the Mexicans in Mexico. So why arent you?

[mat1583]

When a stranger enters your land and conducts himself in opposition to the laws of your country, demands full and unrestricted access to your social programs, fails to pay the full amount of taxes, and otherwise shirks the majority of duties of other citizens; do you then simply turn the other cheek?


I'm assuming you're ok with how much our social welfare programs are abused by our very own LEGAL citizens, not even immigrants. I'm assuming you're also ok with the government taking your money and spending it on whatever they choose to, whether you want to support it or not. And if that is a wrong assumption, then your problem shouldn't be with the illegal immigrants taking advantage of a terrible system, but should be with the terrible system itself!


I'm getting fairly fed up with the strawman of bigotry being tossed around. It has nothing to do with racism, people. Stop calling me a racist.


Bigotry: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I just visited Texas and I live in Alabama, and I can tell you that there are VERY many bigots in the South and Southeast. I'm not sure the same is true up North. I've seen people on here suggest we start shooting Mexicans that try to cross the border illegally. I've also heard many people say that they should not have to learn to speak any spanish at all, that the mexicans should not try to change our "American Culture" (whatever that is?). How can you not call that bigotry. It's intollerance any way you put it.

-washboard

[jwil59]

I'm assuming you're ok with how much our social welfare programs are abused by our very own LEGAL citizens, not even immigrants. I'm assuming you're also ok with the government taking your money and spending it on whatever they choose to, whether you want to support it or not. And if that is a wrong assumption, then your problem shouldn't be with the illegal immigrants taking advantage of a terrible system, but should be with the terrible system itself!



Bigotry: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I just visited Texas and I live in Alabama, and I can tell you that there are VERY many bigots in the South and Southeast. I'm not sure the same is true up North. I've seen people on here suggest we start shooting Mexicans that try to cross the border illegally. I've also heard many people say that they should not have to learn to speak any spanish at all, that the mexicans should not try to change our "American Culture" (whatever that is?). How can you not call that bigotry. It's intollerance any way you put it.

-washboard

You are right about the bigotry in the South but it isn't any worse than anywhere else.

How would you address the legal issue Matt. We gonna allow everyone to break the law or just this group, and if we are going to forgive the felonies committed, how does that fit into the definition of bigotry you just posted? Looks like the opposite to me. If we hold our own citizens accountable, why not this group?

[ObiShawn]

I've noticed that.

Why stop with Mexico? There are many other nations who need food. The rest of the world's poor aren't any less important than Mexico's. Let's let everybody in and find out how long it will take for our resources to be depleted and we become a third world country. You're ignoring the fact that we already do send millions and millions outside our borders.

Why stop with the US? Why aren't you demanding that all nations with Christians live according to scripture and take in the needy of the world?

Must I say it again? The US is not the church. We in the US are privileged enough to live and work in a country where we can worship God freely and use our resources to help those in need. We can do that because we have laws that are in place to protect the country and its citizens.

Discrimination is making those from every other country but Mexico obey our immigration laws.

Mike, do you have children? Have you sold all to follow Him? Where are you living? Do you live in a house, drive a car? If all the homeless in your area knocked on your door, would you let them in and eat all your food and your children's food? What if they asked for all of your clothes and all of your money? Would you sacrifice your children's welfare for the sake of the poor in your area? This is what would happen if one followed your line of thinking. I think it's admirable that you care so much for the poor. But when the food runs out, what are the poor going to do then? And what are you going to do when you're one of them?

For a Christian, I think the answer lies in obeying what the Spirit would have you do in any given situation. For a nation, I think that the answer is far more complicated and one requiring a well thought out plan.

Washboard and Jesuslove, how come you guys do not reply to Yippy's post (and others like it)? You go off and have these little side battles to dispute whether a point you tried to make is valid or not but in the process ignore the posts that are dealing with the real problem, and that is that these immigratns are illegal.

And since when is it bigotry to want people to obey the law?

[mat1583]

Washboard and Jesuslove, how come you guys do not reply to Yippy's post (and others like it)? You go off and have these little side battles to dispute whether a point you tried to make is valid or not but in the process ignore the posts that are dealing with the real problem, and that is that these immigratns are illegal.

And since when is it bigotry to want people to obey the law?

Try reading any of my posts. Actually, I'll make it easier for you. Read these in order:

#'s: 52, 73, 65, 159.

Most importantly, read 52 over and over and over again so I don't have to repeat myself. Thanks! :)

-washboard

[ObiShawn]

First of all, it seems like a lot of people are labeling every single illegal immigrant as a drain to the society, sucking up tax dollars, and getting free health care.

STOP

There are illegal immigrants who work jobs in which the employer takes out the taxes before the paycheck ever reaches the employee. Not every single illegal immigrant is some dirtbag that doesn't pay taxes, and shouldn't be treated like one.

Secondly, if you have a problem with immigrants receiving free health care and not paying for it through taxes, why not get rid of government welfare altogether and address the real problem? The welfare system is not just abused by illegal immigrants, it's also abused by our own citizens. It creates people who lack responsibility because they can have the government take care of everything else for them. Here's an example....

For your whole life until age 21, your parents always washed your clothes, cleaned your dishes, drove you places, bought food, clothing, gave you a home. You had come to depend on them for that long for everything and never had a job. One day, your parents decide to totally cut every bit of funding and help. What do you do? Well, if you learned no responsibility to the whole time, it's possible you could be homeless for a while. Or maybe even if they housed you, you didn't have enough money for food. What do you do now? You get off your butt and get a job so you can provide for yourself. you start buying your own clothes, your own food, and eventually get your own apartment. Wow, amazing! You learned a bit of responsibility even when your parents stopped providing for you!

And to those still worried about the tax issue: Make it easier for immigrants to become legal and to obtain a ssn, then you will have more of them beginning to pay income taxes. Why are so many of them doing it illegally right now? Because it is so hard for them to become legal in the first place, thus they don't make an attempt to obtain a social security card, and thus don't pay taxes. And has it ever occured to anyone that the employers should also be at fault? Maybe they should be punished for hiring illegals in the first place.

p.s. The farmers hire illegals because Americans don't want to get their hands dirty and do a little fruit picking. They want better jobs, so nobody is left but the immigrants.

-washboard

That's nice and all, and I agree with quite a bit of that, but it still doesn't adress the issue of the fact that they are illegal. It is hard for them to become legal citizens so it is justifiable for them to break the law? Also, you didn't answer my question -

And since when is it bigotry to want people to obey the law?

[JoFro1524]

Yes but so do you...

You pay..
Fica Tax
SS Tax
Sales Tax
Property Tax
School Tax
Estate Tax

Illegals pay...
Sales tax

and that is fair, How exactly?
yeah thats what i think..... i have no problem with people from other countries coming over to the U.S., but they still have to go through the legal issues that the rest of us do.... if you want to immigrate to the U.S. great, but i think they should stop them from coming if its being done illegally. Its not fair for everyone else in America. They might make 10 dollars an hour for a job, but with no income tax, its about the same amount that someone else would get who makes 14 or 15 dollars an hour legally. That's not right.

[Grank]

whoa... i'm not a biggot because i think we should use force to stop people from illegaly come'n across. (I was joking at the time, but now i think i'll go with it.) using force to maintain order isn't biggotry. i'm not biased against their culture either. Obviously, I prefer my culture seeing as how I'm part of it and if i didn't like mine more i could just adopt another one. I really don't care about any other culture as long as it isn't self detructive or just destructive in general. the use of violence doesn't constitute biggotry. there needs to be a cap on how many people we let into our country. rescources are limited. it's not like we have an infinite amount of space, oil, water, electricity, lumber, etc. there also needs to be a way to enforce our stance. violence is almost always the way laws are upheld. this is no different.

[Mr.Elwood]

Interesting thing yesterday.

These two women (mom/daughter and her two young children) were checking out in front of us using food stamps or government issued checks of some kind. Here’s the problem we encountered. The women spoke no English at all. They were barely capable of reading the checks to know what items they could get except baby formula. The daughter had to run back to exchange some cereal, and then I ran back to grab another item because they were entitled to two of them and didn’t know it.

Now here are my thoughts: I did what I did because I should have.. they needed help and I did what I could at that time. They are doing what they can to get established so I can’t fault them for taking so very long (several people were getting irritated) and holding everyone up in line.

But here’s the question… how do you change the situation so that they are not put in that position (you could clearly tell how embarrassed and uncomfortable it made them) so that either the checks are in the correct language, or the issued person gets some minimal training to be able to read the checks. They were speaking Spanish, but what if it had been Russian?

Do we cater to each individual ethnicity, or do we require people make and effort to assimilate into the American culture where English is the predominate language used for the printed and spoken word.

If I side on the debate wanting people to assimilate into English (to a minimum survivable level) does that make me a racist or bigot or whatever?? or if I say we need to print the items according to home country does that make me a pinko liberal?

(for the record I say immigrants need to learn some basic English to be able to drive and purchase...etc.) just like I would have too if I go to another country for an extended period of time.. just seems prudent and makes sense in a survival type of way)

[mat1583]

That's nice and all, and I agree with quite a bit of that, but it still doesn't adress the issue of the fact that they are illegal. It is hard for them to become legal citizens so it is justifiable for them to break the law? Also, you didn't answer my question -

And since when is it bigotry to want people to obey the law?

Was my answer not implied or clearly stated in my thesis? I feel like I'm writing an English paper or something.

I'll repeat myself since obviously it's necessary.

Make it easier for them to be legal and abolish the social welfare system and at least a MAJOR MAJOR tax reform. Easier for them to be legal means they'll more likely get a SSN, which means they will more likely pay taxes. Abolish the social welfare programs and there won't be any program to abuse (immigrants, illegal or not, and US born citizens.). Stop the extreme taxation we face in this nation. There's a reason people try to avoid it!

-washboard

[mat1583]

(for the record I say immigrants need to learn some basic English to be able to drive and purchase...etc.) just like I would have too if I go to another country for an extended period of time.. just seems prudent and makes sense in a survival type of way)

In a way, I do agree. They should know at least a little English if they do want to survive and actually be more effective economically. The funny thing is that most toursist spots you go to overseas, they know at least enough English to do transactions and continue business. Could we say that here in the US? I guess if you went to Miami as a Hispanic this could be very true.

What exactly is the "American culture" anyway? Has it always been the same thing for the past 200 years. What defines it? How has it changed? Why are people so afraid of "it" changing?

-washboard

[Healing Oil]

Do we cater to each individual ethnicity, or do we require people make and effort to assimilate into the American culture where English is the predominate language used for the printed and spoken word.

If I side on the debate wanting people to assimilate into English (to a minimum survivable level) does that make me a racist or bigot or whatever?? or if I say we need to print the items according to home country does that make me a pinko liberal?

They ought to assimilate into the American culture. We should not have to cater to them. This doesnt make you a racist or a bigot :)

When I was younger and trying to obtain my driving permit, I of course had to take a written exam. While waiting in line to have my test graded, there was an older oriental woman in front holding up the line because she knew little to no English and didnt understand that she had failed her test. People like this do not need to be on the road.

Ive been to Mexico a few times and I have had to go shopping there. I made sure that I knew what Spanish I needed in order to purchase what I wanted. It is only out of curteousy and respect. I would not and should not go into any other country expecting them to know, understand or cater to my English.

Basically, I agree with you...happy? ;)

[mat1583]

Ive been to Mexico a few times and I have had to go shopping there. I made sure that I knew what Spanish I needed in order to purchase what I wanted. It is only out of curteousy and respect. I would not and should not go into any other country expecting them to know, understand or cater to my English.


But you see, the thing is most foreign countries do cater to English speaking people because it is beneficial to them economically. As a business owner, they know they will do better business if they cater to certain groups of customers they expect to see. Would it not be the same in the US if more of our tourist spots learned to speak various languages and catered to certain groups of foreigners? (This is off track from immigration really. I'm just talking about any kind of foreigner.)

-washboard

[Mr.Elwood]

They ought to assimilate into the American culture. We should not have to cater to them. This doesnt make you a racist or a bigot :)

When I was younger and trying to obtain my driving permit, I of course had to take a written exam. While waiting in line to have my test graded, there was an older oriental woman in front holding up the line because she knew little to no English and didnt understand that she had failed her test. People like this do not need to be on the road.

Ive been to Mexico a few times and I have had to go shopping there. I made sure that I knew what Spanish I needed in order to purchase what I wanted. It is only out of curteousy and respect. I would not and should not go into any other country expecting them to know, understand or cater to my English.

Basically, I agree with you...happy? ;)
Happy that you agree with me??? YIKES!!!:eek: ;) :D

I think that’s probably the root to the entire question.. Are we going to define “American” to a political certainty so there is a basis on which to judge people??

Or do we continue to just go with the flow (yes.. a purposely bad pun :p ) and let people choose to work it out amicably. Since commerce is the universal language it would seem prudent, like Matt stated, that we at least learn some survival in a second language (dictated by your region and immigrant population of course).

I was educated in the 70’s and 80’s in an area where a second language was mandatory curriculum and integration was not an issue for anyone. And I was considered lower middle class in a trendy white upper-class area.. Just wondering where that attitude went.. I know my girls are not required to take a second language?? We do have them slowly learning Spanish and that will ramp up as soon are their core groups are completed and they have more than short-period elective choices....etc..

When politics get involved is when we seem to draw sides and hard lines on issues. But...yeah, along with my request for them to learn some English would be for us to make an effort (offer a hand of friendship) to know a second language so we can more effectively spread the Love of Christ

[Jesuslove]

I was considered lower middle class.
I don't judge people based on economics, but instead what's in people's hearts.

When politics get involved is when we seem to draw sides and hard lines on issues. But...yeah, along with my request for them to learn some English would be for us to make an effort (offer a hand of friendship) to know a second language so we can more effectively spread the Love of Christ
I personally don't view US vs. THEM as a Christian attitude.

[Jason]

I personally don't view US vs. THEM as a Christian attitude.

I didn't see Rob talking about US vs. THEM. I saw Rob say US reaching to THEM and THEM reaching to US so we all become US.

[kiwisongbird]

I agree that immigrants need to learn the local language - at the same time I have to confess that I only know survival Thai - but so much here is in English - and I can speak Thai shopping and Thai eating food and Thai get myself around the city language...I can't read much Thai - have you seen their alphabet?? :) :) :)

I am always thankful for people who smile sweetly at me and help me - thankfully Thailand is full of people like that. :) :)

I think that if there is a large amount of immigrants from certain countries in an area then brochures etc need to be printed in those languages too - isn't that just good manners helping people?

Pizza Hut here is always in English and Thai - some brochures are in Thai, English, Japanese, Korean, German, and Chinese... :) :)

[Yippy]

I don't judge people based on economics, but instead what's in people's hearts.

You are far more gifted than anyone on this planet.:) From what I understand, only God knows what's in people's hearts. Are you going to be at the gate judging people's hearts as they come in this country?:)

:) :) :) :) Just so you all know that I'm not being sarcastic..;)

[Jesuslove]

You are far more gifted than anyone on this planet.:) From what I understand, only God knows what's in people's hearts. Are you going to be at the gate judging people's hearts as they come in this country?:)

:) :) :) :) Just so you all know that I'm not being sarcastic..;)
How do YOU judge people. I make judgements based on what I see and believe is in people's hearts. I have been wrong on occasion.

[cheewiee]

How do YOU judge people. I make judgements based on what I see and believe is in people's hearts. I have been wrong on occasion.
You are not to judge people's hearts.. You are to judge their fruit...

[Jesuslove]

You are not to judge people's hearts.. You are to judge their fruit...
Who you callin' a fruit????? LOL.. just kidding.... what do you mean by their fruit... what they produce?

[cheewiee]

Who you callin' a fruit????? LOL.. just kidding.... what do you mean by their fruit... what they produce?
Compare somone's actions to what Paul in Galations lists as the "Fruit of the Spirit".

Do then exhibit love, joy, peace, patience...etc..

But you must also keep in mind that some of these things appear skewed... Take a 20 year old drug addicted Child living at home... You see to me, Kicking that kid out of the house is a demonstration of Love... while permitting him to stay would be an act of selfishness on the part of a parent....

if that makes sense...

[stratguy1]

pple have wrote jesus died 4 them, and they are God's pple too, but doesnt the bible say follow the rules of the land. they are breaking the law. they are illegal! i have no problem w/ immigration just do it legally. and with that maybe congress or our pres. should be more diligent in getting a bill passed to increase worker permits, give more green cards, etc. everyone needs a chance. we can do immigration legally but this is our contry. they dont have any right to come over illegally. that's sayin in the very first minutes of them being here that " i cant follow the rules of this society"! come legally or dont come at all.

[Drummer Dude Go]

people have written that Jesus died 4 them, and they are God's people too, but doesnt the Bible say follow the rules of the land. They are breaking the law. they are illegal! i have no problem w/ immigration just do it legally. Everyone needs a chance. we can do immigration legally but this is our contry. they dont have any right to come over illegally. that's sayin in the very first minutes of them being here that " i cant follow the rules of this society"! come legally or dont come at all.
I agree! I dont have any problem with Mexicans living in our country, as long as they do it the legal way, and pay the same taxes as us, and are forced to have insurance, and other stuff, like we are. If they want to live in our free country, they can follow U.S. laws, and pay the price, just like all us legal Americans.

[kh294God]

I agree! I dont have any problem with Mexicans living in our country, as long as they do it the legal way, and pay the same taxes as us, and are forced to have insurance, and other stuff, like we are. If they want to live in our free country, they can follow U.S. laws, and pay the price, just like all us legal Americans.
i totally argee