Hey It's Christmas morning, Lets go to church! What, it's Closed?!?!? [Archive]

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 11:21 AM

1inamillion

12-15-2005, 11:25 AM

we are haveing church on Christmas eve and day :D

kh294God

12-15-2005, 11:34 AM

we are having church on Christmas day, too YEAH!!!! :D

1inamillion

12-15-2005, 11:34 AM

cool

Tony Trout

12-15-2005, 11:36 AM

We're having services on Christmas Day as well.

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 11:42 AM

Our church is having services Christmas Morning... I am sure it will be shorter than normal... but we are still gathering for worship.....

1inamillion

12-15-2005, 11:47 AM

i'm not sure about ours but it starts @ 10:30

middletree

12-15-2005, 11:49 AM

Growing up I was always told that there are only two days in which EVERYONE goes to church, The First being Easter, the Second being Christmas.

However this year Christmas falls on a Sunday, and some of the biggest churches all across this nation will forgo their normal sunday services for a 'family holiday'.
:rolleyes:

Ya know this is kind of sad, that on the very day of the birth of our blessed Savior, we seem so held to our families that we can't go worship our God for just a few hours. That this service might impose on us SO GREATLY on this one of our 'holiest' days....

Why isn't there revival in our churches, today? I will tell you why, because we would rather let little Johnny and little Susy stay at home and play with their new toys then spend just a couple hours in worship....

For the record, I see this completely different from you.

What we call a church "service" isn't really mentioned in the bible. It's basically an Americanized version of something that evolved over the years. So there's no biblical command to do what we do, with the bulletins, dressing up, all that business. But at the core, we see that the first Christians did get together, not only on Sunday, and they worshipped, prayed, and had teaching time.

The main focus, though, was on fellowship. A bunch of believers getting together to be with each other, with Christ as the center. This can happen today in a Sunday morning service, but also in a home group, bible study, camping trip, or whatever form you choose.

So if a family stays home the morning of Dec 25 and opens presents, but keeps Jesus as the focus, then they are having church service. If they invite a friend or neighbor who has no family to spend Christmas with, then there is no way Jesus isn't pleased.

So my suggestion to you, if your church isn't meeting that morning, is to invite someone over to share Christmas breakfast, brunch, lunch, or dinner with you. Find a way to bless someone. If the preacher isn't serving you by offering a sermon, then you go do the serving. It's a great opportunity, if you ask me.

middletree

12-15-2005, 11:52 AM

that on the very day of the birth of our blessed Savior,

OK, in the first place, Jesus wasn't born Dec 25. It's a date that man decided to celebrate.

That this service might impose on us SO GREATLY on this one of our 'holiest' days....

Please cite me the verse which says that this date is holy.

we seem so held to our families that we can't go worship our God for just a few hours.

So you can't worship at home?

12-15-2005, 11:53 AM

Isn't that what families are supposed to do?!!!

I'm talking about WORSHIPPING TOGETHER, building a family that puts Christ FIRST. Our church will not have Sunday School, but will have a worship service.... however, our YOUTH will have a HALO TOURNAMENT on December 23rd... grrrrrr... it seems like too many toys are being brought into our church to entertain our youth & YOUTH LEADER. Makes me :( that only a tiny portion of time is spent on Bible studies & a LOT is spent "fellowshipping" with a video game. Maybe this frustration is for a different thread...

But back on track... it is not only sad, but these churches that are forgoing their Sunday services on their Savior's birthday in order to have a "family HOLIDAY" are in big trouble!!! Are they now ALSO becoming politically correct... WIMPING OUT?! A church that is NOT ALL ABOUT Christ is doomed. They WILL be held accountable. Is that what's happening these days... trying to cater to the "family" in order to get families to fill the pews whenever it's convenient to have a service? I certainly hope they don't forgo Easter so that these same families can spend time together trading candies from their Easter baskets :eek: !

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 12:08 PM

Can you worship at home? Perhaps, but that is not the point...

The point is that some of the biggest churches in this country are closing and locking their doors on a day when the world goes to church...

I understand that throughout the year when Christmas doesn't fall on Sunday most churches have a Christmas Eve Service and then are done with it, however in this case we are cancelling NORMAL Sunday worship services... The one time a week everyone gets together to worship God together, in a corperate enviroment is just BAM gone, Eliminated this one week, because of a holiday... A holiday that celebrates the very birth of the savior of our faith.

I am not dissing homechurches... If you partake in a homechurch, thats great... but be consistant... But if your going to have your doors open for normal sunday service, be consistant even when it may be inconvienient....

Ehud Elijah

12-15-2005, 12:12 PM

We are having church. There are a few people who would rather not have church, and spend it with their family. Some peoples idols are their family.

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 12:17 PM

We are having church. There are a few people who would rather not have church, and spend it with their family. Some peoples idols are their family.
I wouldn't go so far to say that...

If people want to stay home, let that be their choice, but for a church to decide flat out that they are going to be closed on any sunday finds itself dangerously close being a Laodicean Church....

12-15-2005, 12:31 PM

OK, in the first place, Jesus wasn't born Dec 25. It's a date that man decided to celebrate.

Please cite me the verse which says that this date is holy.

So you can't worship at home?
The point is, it IS the date that has been set aside to honor the birth of Christ. That's the day we observe it no matter what day it really was. That's the day we consider to be holy BECAUSE the birth of Christ was an extremely holy event, a prophecy fullfilled. It's out of love & respect that we consider it to be holy in our modern times. Do we only do things if there is one particular verse that says to? I think if you take the Bible as a whole, you can see that it's a holy event that should be revered.
We can worship at home... but it's easy to get sidetracked by the excitement of what SANTA brought everyone & worship gets slighted... 10 minutes of reading the Bible together & a prayer, & then "start ripping, kids!" There are a lot of people that do only go to church twice a year & if there's no Christmas day worship service, then it's easy for these people to forget what Christmas means & now these twice-a-year-church-goers can become once-a-year-church-goers... or maybe not ever go at all. Why would it ever be important for them to go to church, if it's not important for active Christians to celebrate Christ's birth together in a service on the day that has been set aside to do so (yeah, we all know it's not really the day He was born). It's just not sending a good message to the people we are trying to reach. I see it as just another way churches have become lazy & are trying to widen that narrow road.
Some families will choose to worship whether there's a service or not, a lot will choose not to whether there's a service or not. The churches are not servants of families, but servants of Christ & should promote the observance of Christmas as a day to honor Christ, not a day to honor families.

middletree

12-15-2005, 12:50 PM

The point is, it IS the date that has been set aside to honor the birth of Christ. That's the day we observe it no matter what day it really was. That's the day we consider to be holy

I guess that's my problem. The date that we consider to be holy. Has nothing to do with what God thinks.

In case it isn't clear yet, I'm anti-Christmas. But I tolerate it.

BECAUSE the birth of Christ was an extremely holy event, a prophecy fullfilled.

Of course it was. But it happened already. We didn't get to witness the birth of Jesus. The moment is gone.

Seems to me that if God wanted us to celebrate it, He wouldn't have been so vague about the date.

you can see that it's a holy event that should be revered.

I think the actual event should be revered. I dont agree that just because a bunch of fallible humans decided on a date that that date should be revered.

We can worship at home... but it's easy to get sidetracked by the excitement of what SANTA brought everyone & worship gets slighted..

Of course it is, and that's why we don't do Santa Clause in our house.

There are a lot of people that do only go to church twice a year & if there's no Christmas day worship service,

Ah, now you have a point I can agree with. A seeker-friendly church should at least consider having something, even if it's just one pastor in the building, waiting to pray for anyone who drops by.

I see it as just another way churches have become lazy & are trying to widen that narrow road.

I don't understand this statement. Can you elaborate?

Ehud Elijah

12-15-2005, 12:52 PM

I wouldn't go so far to say that...

If people want to stay home, let that be their choice, but for a church to decide flat out that they are going to be closed on any sunday finds itself dangerously close being a Laodicean Church....

I'm not saying that is the case with everyone who won't be at church on Christmas - I'm sure there will be a myriad of reasons. However, I think your observation on the Laodicean church basically sums it all up quite succinctly.

middletree

12-15-2005, 12:52 PM

for a church to decide flat out that they are going to be closed on any sunday finds itself dangerously close being a Laodicean Church....

I think that's kind of harsh. Many churches are open for several services the day before.

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 01:05 PM

I think that's kind of harsh. Many churches are open for several services the day before.

Harsh? Ok lets look at this quote...

CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/07/national/main1103153.shtml)

Cally Parkinson, a spokeswoman for Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., said church leaders decided that organizing services on a Christmas Sunday would not be the most effective use of staff and volunteer resources. The last time Christmas fell on a Sunday was 1994, and only a small number of people showed up to pray, she said.

Services on Christmas Sunday would not be the most effective use of staff and volunteer resources?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

WHAT Kind of reason is that?

middletree

12-15-2005, 01:14 PM

Harsh?

I meant your statement about Laodicea was harsh if applied to each church that is closed that day.

Ok lets look at this quote...
Services on Christmas Sunday would not be the most effective use of staff and volunteer resources?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
WHAT Kind of reason is that?

I guess I just don't have a problem with the quote. It takes a lot of effort to put on a service every week, and if you know that very few people will show up, then you have to make a decision about whether that effort is well-spent.

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 01:25 PM

...I guess I just don't have a problem with the quote. It takes a lot of effort put on a service every week, and if you know that very few people will show up, then you have to make a decision about whether that effort is well-spent.

I know how much effort it takes to put on a service EVERY WEEK... But services are... or atleast SHOULD BE about worshiping God, and not about man... The WHOLE purpose of the church is to help people connect to God... It doesn't matter how many people show up?

What if Jesus sitting in the garden decided that not enough people were going to follow him to warrant his death....

middletree

12-15-2005, 02:10 PM

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 02:56 PM

I want to emphasize that I did acknowledge the point about having the church open for seekers and the unchurched.

I guess the main reason I'm not on board with you is that I'm not on board with the idea that what we call church services is mandated by God. I mean, to some extent, what we do is similar to what we read in Acts as the first church gatherings. But for the most part, modern church is a man-made event, and in this case, you're calling for the celebration of a man-made holiday to coincide with a man-made church service. So perhaps I shouldn't have even participated in this thread at all, given my general scroogeness.

In other words, I came into this conversation with some presuppositions about what church should be, and what Christmas should be (non-existent) that are different from yours. I respect your right to see it differently, but we're obviously on different wavelengths concerning this. I personally would be happy if Christmas and Easter never got celebrated again. So I'll bow out.

I understand where your coming from, I have a friend that is a Primitave Catholic Priest, that celebrates Advent on the 25th... and exchanges gifts on Epiphany 8 days later... And I respect that, atleast your being honest and true and consistant with your convictions....

But if as you say an Americanized Church holds service EVERY Sunday w/o fail, chooses to forgo the service on Christmas Day... the day that they readily acknolege they celebrate as Christs birth... their stance is inconsistant with their practices and their beliefs...

ReinaMissy

12-15-2005, 03:14 PM

Sabbath can be ANY day, chee.

Not having services for over 10,000 people on one Sunday of the year in no way makes them unChristian, for pete's sake.

mad4brad

12-15-2005, 03:17 PM

we normally have three services on sundays, but on Christmas day we're going to have only two...Christmas Eve we have our annual "candle light service"...it's really cool.

cheewiee

12-15-2005, 03:25 PM

Sabbath can be ANY day, chee.

Not having services for over 10,000 people on one Sunday of the year in no way makes them unChristian, for pete's sake.

I didn't call them unchristian.... I called them lukewarm....

But then in all honesty I find most seeker churches have alot in common with the church in Laodocia.

middletree

12-15-2005, 03:26 PM

Sabbath can be ANY day, chee.

Well this is a subject for another thread, but I don't agree with that statement. Sabbath never stopped being Saturday. Christians started meeting on Sundays, but meeting days and Sabbath are never tied together, as far as I can see, in Scripture.

12-15-2005, 03:42 PM

I guess I just don't have a problem with the quote. It takes a lot of effort to put on a service every week, and if you know that very few people will show up, then you have to make a decision about whether that effort is well-spent.
Just proves my point about churches becoming lazy. The effort is well-spent in that it's being done out of love for Christ & if one person comes, that's one person that was right where God wanted them to be. I've worked with youth before & at one particular event, the turnout was disappointing, but it became one of the best opportunities to reach one particular boy by speaking & praying with him one on one... which would not have happened if a lot of kids had shown up. Our efforts are not always rewarded here on this earth & we shouldn't be putting forth effort just to be rewarded by a large crowd & pats on the back. As Cheewiee said, "What if Jesus sitting in the garden decided that not enough people were going to follow him to warrant his death...."

Middletree, you asked me to elaborate on "widening the road"... Matthew 7:13 & 14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." I meant that some churches are becoming lax & lenient in what's acceptable... they want to get to heaven on the 6 lane expressway, not the narrow road.

When I said Christmas is holy BECAUSE the birth of Christ was an extremely holy event, a prophecy fullfilled, you responded:

"Of course it was. But it happened already. We didn't get to witness the birth of Jesus. The moment is gone.
Seems to me that if God wanted us to celebrate it, He wouldn't have been so vague about the date."

I worked in a nursing home for several years & as an activity to stimulate the minds of the elderly, we often discussed the past. This one particular day we were discussing our favorite birthday memories. One of our oldest ladies was soon to turn 99. To make a long story short, she had been adopted & her real birthdate was not known for whatever reason, just the year. So... her "new parents" assigned her a birthday. If I were to follow your logic, then this lady's birth should never have been celebrated in all her 99 years. I'm sure there weren't many witnesses to your birth, the moment's gone, it happened already... should no one ever celebrate that you were ever born?

On a positive note, inviting others into your home to share is a wonderful idea. Too many people spend Christmas alone.

I do have a question for you though, why are you're anti-Christmas? Or are you just anti-commercial Christmas or anti-Santa (which I totally agree with)? Setting aside a day to remember Jesus' birth is what Christmas is to me. Without that, it's a Bible story, like Moses' birth or Noah & the ark... & it really deserves to be much more special & celebrated somehow. Since you're anti-Easter, too, I guess I'm wondering if you are a church goer at all... are you?

MalletKAT_Gomer, for the benefit of others that may be looking forward to it, you shouldn't "hope" that your church will lay off their Christmas day service. If you and your family are too wiped out to go, then don't go. There's no rule that you have to be in church every time they open the doors.

silly4HIM

12-15-2005, 03:47 PM

Our church is adding services this year - one on Saturday late afternoon, one late Saturday evening and a late afternoon serivce on Sunday - plus the two Sunday services we normally have on Sunday.

middletree

12-15-2005, 05:02 PM

When I said Christmas is holy BECAUSE the birth of Christ was an extremely holy event, a prophecy fullfilled, you responded:
<snip>
If I were to follow your logic, then this lady's birth should never have been celebrated in all her 99 years. I'm sure there weren't many witnesses to your birth, the moment's gone, it happened already... should no one ever celebrate that you were ever born?

Totally different. Saying that something is worthy of celebrating and saying something is holy are two different things. Only God decides what's holy. Yet we know that man decided that Dec would be Christmas day. Even though they had good intentions, they cannot make that day holy.

I do have a question for you though, why are you're anti-Christmas?

I think this should be answered in another thread, as I don't want to hijack this one any more than I already have. But to make it short, it's a combination of the greediness & materialism, the bad songs, the lying to kids, etc. But one thing that is very big to me is all the elements of ancient occultic religions that have made their way into Christmas. I fully realize that one cannot go a day without incorporating other paganistic stuff into their lives, such as when you say "bless you" when someone sneezes, or when you wish upon a star(astrology). But Christmas incorporates these things into a celebration of Jesus. And that's something I have a problem with.

Since you're anti-Easter, too, I guess I'm wondering if you are a church goer at all... are you?

Easter goes one step further than Christmas, in that it incorporates the name of an idol which was mentioned in the bible (Astoreth=Easter).

Yes, I'm a Christian. See www.middletree.net

Yes, I'm a church-goer. My church is a non-denom in Arlington, TX, about 1400 people. (www.gracearlington.com)

Yes, the full-time leaders (I'm a lay leader myself) celebrate Christmas and Easter and other stuff I am not on board with. But I don't think we are called to find a church that consists of people we agree with 100% of the time. We are to find out which church God wants us to be in. God wants me to be in this church, and fulfill whatever role He has for me there, so I don't sweat it when the pastor says something I disagree with.

And for the record, my own wife loves Christmas. We have a tree, and do the whole thing. We meet in the middle on some things (I allow a tree, but she allows me to forbid the easter eggs). I don't want to be legalistic about things and impose my will on someone who is a mature Christian and who can hear God's voice as much as I can.

ReinaMissy

12-15-2005, 07:01 PM

Well this is a subject for another thread, but I don't agree with that statement. Sabbath never stopped being Saturday. Christians started meeting on Sundays, but meeting days and Sabbath are never tied together, as far as I can see, in Scripture.

I'm aware of the fact that the Sabbath never stopped being Saturday, but that's not what I stated.

A meeting day is not a Sabbath.

middletree

12-15-2005, 07:26 PM

I'm aware of the fact that the Sabbath never stopped being Saturday, but that's not what I stated.

A meeting day is not a Sabbath.
I said that in response to a statement you made where it seems that you tied Sunday meetings to Sabbath. Perhaps I misunderstood.

MusicianaryMary

12-16-2005, 07:02 AM

Maybe I'll throw a little perspective on this that hasn't been mentioned very much.

Ok, so I'll admit it, I'm a PK!

As a PK, I constantly share my parents with the world. I do it gladly because I know that it is what God wants of them, and that the Lord will bless our family because of it.

That being said, it is incredibly difficult to go every day knowing that at any time the demands of the church could take the time that your dad has for you, or that at any moment the phone can and does ring and there will be another crisis that we sacrifice our family time for. We aren't cancelling Christmas morning service, and quite honestly, it's really hard for me. I love the church, and I love Christ, and I am wholly commited to sacrifice for His kingdom, and honoring Him. Christmas morning has always been the time that I know dad will be uninterrupted and we can laugh, fellowship, play games, be silly, pray, read scripture together, and bless each other with gifts, without him having to say, "Be Right Back, Sally needs prayer" or "I have to answer this phone call because . . . ". Sunday mornings are the same way. I know that I will not be able to talk to or interact with my dad for a few hours. That honestly makes Christmas look like kind of a bummer to me. Why?

Meeting within the church walls is not "church". That is a topic for another thread, but in my opinion, going to a service means nothing to churches who are not acting as the church. In that way, cancelling Christmas morning service is no more lukewarm than the thousands of people who go to church on Sunday mornings and sit on their rear ends, trusting someone else to make them grow spiritually, and uninterested in what it means to advance the kingdom of God. The people who are said to be "In church" twice a year, are there for the Christmas Eve service, and they are there . . . well, twice a year. Wouldn't it be better if the "church" showed them a reason to be in a lifestyle of serving God? How does giving up one of the times set aside to worship God as a family help this?

All this to say, that the pastors who have carefully considered the matter, and decided to invest quality time (whether it's ripping paper off of things doesn't matter - spending fun and quality time with your wife and children is THE MOST IMPORTANT MINISTRY YOU HAVE) into their families, I applaud and greatly respect. Why do I say that it is ministry?

Those of you who are not in pastor's families have no idea what the children of those families go through. The pressures, and the hurts, the disillusionment and the expectations. Their dad is not only their dad, but their pastor, and so he is the closest example to God that they can find. It is difficult when your dad is absent all the time to meet the needs of others in the name of serving God to come out the other side with a correct view of who God is. The same could be said for Christian families who are not in pastoral leadership. It is easy to take your kids to church and let someone else show them a perspective of God. It is a lot harder to show them a picture of God that they are incapable of getting from anyone else.

I say cancel the silly service, and start being the church instead.

MusicianaryMary

12-16-2005, 07:32 AM

One more thing - a quote from a friend, "in regards to the controversy---"tell the congregation to come to the christmas eve service and spend sunday morning with their families. the fact that its a controversy shows what a sad state Christianity is in---to get all worked up about dumb stuff and forget whats really important".

I think that I agree with him.

Sam!

12-16-2005, 12:19 PM

The fact is, people for the most part go to Christmas Eve and not Christmas Day services. And yes, a church has to decide if its "worth it" to put together a service on any particular day. When your volunteers and staff are burned out (many churches put together 3 or 4 services Christmas Eve), then they lose their effectiveness. However, those churches that are closing their doors Sunday morning had BETTER be making the point that their congregations DO need to still BE the church. The most important "youth ministry" is the family. The most effective evangelism is not done in churches but from person to person. Rather than question the Spiritual fervor of these church leaders, maybe we should let the pastors and the people they are accountable to worry about what God wants them to and we should trust them.

I tend to be somewhere closer to middletree personally. When we have children, I hope Santa doesn't figure into our family traditions. But that is something my wife and I will have to discuss.

rossid

12-16-2005, 12:22 PM

My wife did not want to go but then she changed her mind. We'll open gifts, go to service, then open gifts and have lunch at my parents.

Just hope there are some good P & W songs at church and not a bunch of Christmas songs. Silent Night would be okay. [end of rant]

middletree

12-16-2005, 12:24 PM

That being said, it is incredibly difficult to go every day knowing that at any time the demands of the church could take the time that your dad has for you, or that at any moment the phone can and does ring and there will be another crisis that we sacrifice our family time for.

Thanks very much for this perspective! Your paragraph above hopefully will prove to all that it's not a matter of laziness.

Meeting within the church walls is not "church".

YESSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(pumps fist)

jesusnewspaper

12-16-2005, 02:22 PM

NO CURCH ON CRISTMAS? you have to be kidding me! I will be at my curch around midnight Christmas eve and am still going to curch the next day! By the way curch goes on in the middle of a field tonight! no prep work needed! so dont talk about how much work it is! you wanna see work try walking around isreal for 3yrs!

heres a hypothetical leter my pastor sent out to the whole curch!

Dear Sir / Madam 12/12/2005

As you well know, we are getting closer to my birthday. Every Year there is a celebration in my honor and I think that this year the celebration will be repeated. During this time there are many people shopping for gifts, there are many radio announcements, TV commercials and in every part of the world everyone is talking that my birthday is getting closer & closer.

It is really very nice to know, that at least once a year, some people think of me. As you know, the celebration of my Birthday began many years ago. At first, people seemed to understand and be thankful of all that I did for them but in these times, no one seems to know the reason for the celebration. I remember that last year there was a great feast in my honor. The dinner table was full of delicious foods, pastries, fruits, assorted nuts and chocolates. The decorations were exquisite and there were many beautifully wrapped gifts.

But, do you want to know something? I wasn’t invited. I was the guest of honor and they didn’t remember to send me an invitation. The party was for me, but when the great day came, I was left outside, they closed the door in my face… and I wanted to be with them and share their table. In truth, that didn’t surprise me because in the last few years they all closed their doors to me.

Since I was not invited, I decided to enter the party without making any noise. I went in and stood in a corner. They were all drinking; there were some who were drunk and telling jokes and laughing at everything. They were having a great time. To top it all, this big fat man all dressed in red wearing a ling white beard entered the room yelling, HO, HO, HO! He seemed drunk. He sat on the sofa and all the Children ran to him saying Santa Claus… as if the party were in his honor. At 12 midnight all the people began to hug each other; I extended my arms waiting for someone to hug me and do you know… no one hugged me. Suddenly they all began to share gifts. They opened them one by one with great expectation. When all had been opened, I looked to see, if maybe there was one for me. What would you feel if on your birthday everybody shared gifts and you did not get one? I then understood that I was unwanted at the party and quietly left. Every Year it gets worse. People only remember to eat & drink, the gifts, the parties and nobody remembers me. I would like this Christmas that you allow one to enter into your life. I would like that you recognize the fact that almost 2000 years ago, I came to this world to give my life for you on the cross to save you. Today I only want that you believe this with all your heart. I want to share something with you. As many didn’t invite me to their party, I will have my own celebration, a grandiose party that no one has ever imagined. I’m still making the final arrangements. Today I am sending out many invitations and there is on invitation for you. I want to know if you wish to attend and I will make a reservation for you and write your name with Golden Letters in my great guest book. Only those on the guest list will be invited to the party. Those who don’t answer the invitation will be left outside. Do you know how you can answer this invitation? It is by extending it to others whom you care for.

I’ll we waiting for all of you to attend my party this year.

See you soon, “I Love You” –

JESUS

Sam!

12-16-2005, 03:37 PM

cheewiee--

Q: will your church home be offering any services on Sunday?

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 03:46 PM

cheewiee--

Q: will your church home be offering any services on Sunday?

My Home Church will be having our Normal Sunday Morning Service...

We are not having a Christmas Eve service.... and that Irks me as well...

MusicianaryMary

12-16-2005, 04:30 PM

I have read that "letter" before. It makes me sick. It is NOT an accurate portrayal of Christians on Christmas morning. I think it can be, but it's main intent is to condemn and judge people that the author doesn't even know.

Do you know the meaning behind WHY we give gifts?

In Roman Tradition, the people were required to give gifts to each other when a king was born. In essence, giving gifts is our declaration of Christ as king, and honoring His birth. That is the focus that my family has on gift giving, and so it, in and of itself, is an act of worship.

As to Santa Claus, don't forget who the original Santa was, and why he is considered ST. Nicolas. His acts were also for the Lord. My parents taught me who Santa was and why he did what he did when I was very young. In this way, even Santa became a way to honor the Lord. They never lied to me about him, and I always knew where things came from, but I also always knew WHY we did things they way that we did.

I don't question that people have forgotten the true meaning of Christmas. They do, every year. But scrapping gifts and parties and putting yourself in a "church" building, doesn't make you anymore spiritual. It is this kind of attitude that honestly troubles me about the church today. Christianity is not a formula. It's renewal of the mind and heart, and the transforming power of Jesus in your EVERYDAY life. How you treat your family, how you talk when you're at home, how you are aware of the needs of other around you . . . etc.

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 04:36 PM

Do you know the meaning behind WHY we give gifts?

In Roman Tradition, the people were required to give gifts to each other when a king was born. In essence, giving gifts is our declaration of Christ as king, and honoring His birth. That is the focus that my families have on gift giving, and so it in and of itself is an act of worship.

As to Santa Claus, don't forget who the original Santa was, and why he is considered ST. Nicolas. His acts were also for the Lord.

It went beyond the Roman Tradition of giving gifts when a King was born...

It goes back to Pagans who exchanged gifts in celebration of the solstice...
Just like the Tree... Pagan Symbol that Jermiah tells us in Chapter 10 of his book to Not to do...

The Wreath, Mistletoe.... all pagan symbols...

If we wanted to follow tradition, gifts would be given on January 2nd, on Epiphany....

That's *IF* we wanted to follow tradition....

middletree

12-16-2005, 04:49 PM

cheewiee, I think you picked on one thing in Mary's post and missed what she was really saying. What she says is something you should give some thought.

I don't question that people have forgotten the true meaning of Christmas. They do, every year. But scrapping gifts and parties and putting yourself in a "church" building, doesn't make you anymore spiritual. It is this kind of attitude that honestly troubles me about the church today.

HotWireD

12-16-2005, 04:58 PM

So perhaps I shouldn't have even participated in this thread at all, given my general scroogeness.

In other words, I came into this conversation with some presuppositions about what church should be, and what Christmas should be (non-existent) that are different from yours. I respect your right to see it differently, but we're obviously on different wavelengths concerning this. I personally would be happy if Christmas and Easter never got celebrated again. So I'll bow out.

Please do not stop contributing to threads, even given your scrooginess.

I agree that the date of Christmas is not important, that it happened is.

I have not quoted all your posts, but, yes, yes, Good point, I agree, yes and I agree completely.

Regarding churches being closed on Christmas day. If that particular church makes a big thing about Christmas being sacred, and then does not open, that does not appear right.

But we can celebrate the Birth of the Christ (if we want to) with our family and friends, strangers in the road and on any, and every other day of the year.

Oliver Cromwell and his puritans, whilst in charge of England many years ago, made it law that Christmas day should not be celebrated. No food or singing or services were allowed that would not be eaten, sung or performed on any other day were allowed.

This made it against the law to have a special Christmas dinner, unless you could proove that was what you ate every day. He also made it against the law to give presents on Christmas day.

Apparently - and this may be an old wive's tale - it is still against the law to celebrate Christmas in the United kingdom, because the laws were never repealed.

Gandalf

12-16-2005, 05:14 PM

It went beyond the Roman Tradition of giving gifts when a King was born...

It goes back to Pagans who exchanged gifts in celebration of the solstice...
Just like the Tree... Pagan Symbol that Jermiah tells us in Chapter 10 of his book to Not to do...
Hmm... let's think. When Christians in times past decided to give gifts in honor of Jesus' birth, is it more likely they were trying to emulate the pagans, or honor Jesus? The latter seems more likely to be the case. Who cares if the pagans also give gifts?
The Wreath, Mistletoe.... all pagan symbols...
There is surely some ancient pagan idol that was symbolized by a fish. Maybe we should throw out all the little Ichtus symbols as being demonic. ;) I don't think the "pagans may've had a tradition so we can't" argument holds any more weight than the opposite extreme of thinking that Christmas is something that people must observe on December 25, according to someone's tradition, in order to be pious. The pagans were worshipping the imitations; we're worshipping the real God. Why should it bother us if some of their traditions and some of our own overlap?

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 05:16 PM

cheewiee, I think you picked on one thing in Mary's post and missed what she was really saying. What she says is something you should give some thought.

No.. I didnt pick out anything... It wasn't there when I posted...

Either way... If a Church is going to Celebrate December 25th as Christs Mass, or as we call it Christmas, if Christmas falls on a Sunday and said church meets on Sunday it shouldn't close...

It isn't about when and where you have church... I am not questioning the ability for people to have church at home... But there is something about setting presents aside, getting dressed, and going to gather with others to worship our King, and what he did when he became flesh....

I understand we as humans have frailities... we get tired and week.. Even Peter and John slept in the garden when they needed to be praying...

We have thrown aside religion to the point that we no longer have conviction... Somone questions the state of the church and they are called legalistic... And yet we ask why God isn't moving in our society, and why our society is falling into such moral decay...

I am not saying that A church closed on Christmas is the cause for all this, but it is a sign of continuing apathy and lack of conviction in the church in America...

We show up to church 10 mins late, but we goto movies 15 mins early...
We show up to church in flip flops, but we go out on the town in nice clothes...

We have no honor for God anymore... and we wonder why our nation is in the state it is...

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 05:19 PM

Hmm... let's think. When Christians in times past decided to give gifts in honor of Jesus' birth, is it more likely they were trying to emulate the pagans, or honor Jesus? The latter seems more likely to be the case. Who cares if the pagans also give gifts?

There is surely some ancient pagan idol that was symbolized by a fish. Maybe we should throw out all the little Ichtus symbols as being demonic. ;) I don't think the "pagans may've had a tradition so we can't" argument holds any more weight than the opposite extreme of thinking that Christmas is something that people must observe on December 25, according to someone's tradition, in order to be pious. The pagans were worshipping the imitations; we're worshipping the real God. Why should it bother us if some of their traditions and some of our own overlap?

It doesn't bother me... I am just saying... If you look at the history of the practice of Solstice and such... much of the 'Secular' elements of Christmas pattern those celebrations...

sandie

12-16-2005, 05:21 PM

Christmas Day this year: Sunday 9:30am Service as normal, and morning tea afterwards under the awning and tree. And I'm on the morning tea roster this year. :)

I know Christ was not born on 25th December, but the Christmas Day Service at my church is always wonderful. There's always a little extra something present - extra smiles for our brothers and sisters in Christ, extra joy as we sing to our Lord and hear His Word, extra hugs after the Service. It's great to be part of a caring, worshipping, body of believers. I wouldn't miss it for the world! :) :) :)

Gandalf

12-16-2005, 05:37 PM

No.. I didnt pick out anything... It wasn't there when I posted...
:confused: You quoted her...

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 05:40 PM

:confused: You quoted her...

Yes I did.... She edited that part in...

MusicianaryMary

12-16-2005, 05:49 PM

It's true I edited it, because I have a fever of 101 and realized that what I said needed more explanation.

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 05:55 PM

It's true I edited it, because I have a fever of 101 and realized that what I said needed more explanation.
I am sorry to hear that, I will pray for you... I myself have a fever of 100.... so I understand where your coming from...

Like I said... I suppose my frustration is right now the church has a real issue of honoring God....

middletree

12-16-2005, 06:27 PM

I am sorry to hear that, I will pray for you... I myself have a fever of 100.... so I understand where your coming from...

Like I said... I suppose my frustration is right now the church has a real issue of honoring God....
It's possible to honor God without meeting at a building. Apparently, this is where you and I disagree.

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 06:49 PM

It's possible to honor God without meeting at a building. Apparently, this is where you and I disagree.

No... your seeing things I am not saying...

If you goto X church... X church identifies as a christian church... X church conducts Sunday Morning Services normally... X Church Celebrates Christmas as Christs Birth... I have a problem if X church decides that offering an opportunity for people to come and worhsip is to much of a hassle, so they cancel their NORMALLY scheduled Sunday Morning Worship service....

Think of it this way....

What if a church cancelled their normally Sunday Evening Service so people can watch the Superbowl?

mercyGurl

12-16-2005, 07:02 PM

What if a church cancelled their normally Sunday Evening Service so people can watch the Superbowl?

Funny you mention that because my church once went bowling Superbowl Sunday night, and we all gathered and had a chili cook-off and bowled and watched the Superbowl. I think they called it "Souper Bowl Sunday" or something like that;)

And you know what? We got to go out and invite people to come and fellowship who wouldn't come to church and really show God's love to the workers at the bowling alley. They said we were the most respectful group they'd ever had, but that it was amazing to see us have fun.

So was my church wrong in going to the bowling alley rather than having Sunday night services??

-Sarah

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 07:07 PM

Funny you mention that because my church once went bowling Superbowl Sunday night, and we all gathered and had a chili cook-off and bowled and watched the Superbowl. I think they called it "Souper Bowl Sunday" or something like that;)

And you know what? We got to go out and invite people to come and fellowship who wouldn't come to church and really show God's love to the workers at the bowling alley. They said we were the most respectful group they'd ever had, but that it was amazing to see us have fun.

So was my church wrong in going to the bowling alley rather than having Sunday night services??

-Sarah

Once again, did I say that?

You are assuming I am saying something I didn't say....

I asked a question... What do you think about a church canceling Sunday Evening Services because of Superbowl Sunday... I said nothing about having a fellowship on superbowl sunday.... Cancelling service... Please do not assume I am saying something I DID NOT SAY!

Gandalf

12-16-2005, 08:07 PM

Our youth group, which meets on Sunday nights, traditionally has a Super Bowl party in the church cafeteria - set up a projector and put the game up on the big screen, etc. - it's a great event :)

I don't think it's a problem to cancel church services for whatever reasons, so long as the motives are reasonable - it's not as if Christianity were about meetings. But, I do find it rather ironic when services get cancelled for church holidays - the very point of the holiday is Christianity; it just seems a little silly to cancel church services for it. Not wrong necessarily. Just something I kind of laugh and shake my head at. :)

mercyGurl

12-16-2005, 08:14 PM

Once again, did I say that?

You are assuming I am saying something I didn't say....

I asked a question... What do you think about a church canceling Sunday Evening Services because of Superbowl Sunday... I said nothing about having a fellowship on superbowl sunday.... Cancelling service... Please do not assume I am saying something I DID NOT SAY!

But can't someone have fellowship at home? Isn't that fellowship too? What's the difference in having fellowship at the bowling alley and having fellowship with your relatives at home?

I haven't been to church in 2 and a half weeks. I've missed Wednesday night services for the past two weeks because I felt like it, and I missed last Sunday because I felt like it, (The Sunday before that, I couldn't go). Why did I miss on Sunday? Because I knew that I would not be in the right attitude and wouldn't really be in an attitude to worship. But I stayed home and spent a lovely morning with God, just going around my house and getting stuff done.

So my point in telling that story is to ask whether or not being at home instead of going to church makes a difference. Our church is having one service on Christmas, but I don't know if we're going. I can see why a church wouldn't want to have services on Christmas. I would rather worship at home.

Gandalf

12-16-2005, 08:18 PM

mercyGurl

12-16-2005, 08:20 PM

cheewiee

12-16-2005, 08:36 PM

On any given day, sure... in general, remember that we're admonished in Scripture not to forsake gathering together. We can worship God on our own, but fellowshipping with other believers requires being with them :) - the Church is one body, and we do need each other. (I am not saying you were wrong to miss church a few times or that church services are the only place to fellowship with believers and worship corporately, just making sure your statement isn't taken as a license to distance ourselves from other Christians).

I went through a period of time at the middle of 2004 where I just didn't feel like going to church... I still went most Sunday mornings, but skipped Sunday night and Wedensday night.. for a while my pastor didn't mention anything about it for a while as i was recently married, eventually he took me aside after about 3 or 4 months, and asked me what was going on... I told him that I just didn't feel like going... He responded to me by saying this...

You don't have to goto church every week... but if you find yourself not wanting to come you should honestly look at your heart and and find out why...

Legalisim is only doing things because you have to do them... But If we don't want to goto church and be around other brothers and sisters in Christ we need to check out our heart and find out why...

Legalisim is doing something that you should do, not because you want to, but because you have to....

Col. Mustard

12-16-2005, 09:33 PM

So you can't worship at home?
i have to agree there I don't belong to a church, and never go to church. its not the church that makes the christian, its the christian that makes the church. going to church is not the only place you can worship at.

jesusnewspaper

12-18-2005, 08:13 PM

i have to agree there I don't belong to a church, and never go to church. its not the church that makes the christian, its the christian that makes the church. going to church is not the only place you can worship at.
yes i used to be just like you ;) ! and you CAN worship at home but please remember its alot easer to be a christian around christians !

middletree

12-19-2005, 02:50 AM

I do find it rather ironic when services get cancelled for church holidays - the very point of the holiday is Christianity;

The problem is that many Christians think that Christianity is about the holiday.

Gandalf

12-19-2005, 04:42 AM

Do they actually? Or is that perception more based on a secular portrayal rather than the thoughts of actual Christians?

prayercloth sis

12-19-2005, 05:03 AM

Jake

12-19-2005, 01:50 PM

We cancelled our Sunday School but we're having church at 11. As soon as it was brought up, our pastor said, "If there's one day when we really ought to have church, I think this is it."

middletree

12-19-2005, 01:55 PM

We cancelled our Sunday School but we're having church at 11. As soon as it was brought up, our pastor said, "If there's one day when we really ought to have church, I think this is it."
I agree we should have church. We just don't need the church building or the pastor or anyone else to have church. I'm having church in my living room with my family and invited friends this Sunday.

krazy4him0518

12-19-2005, 05:37 PM

Church's arent being lazy. Not all church's are this way. Only well..yours. and you can pray at home. and me being 15 i know that i would rather stay home and open up presents and spend little time with the family that i have rather than going to church. That may sound non-christian but very few children want to actually get up and go to church THAN come home and open the presents. no. they want to open up the presents first and than after that they want to play with them and EAT. very few kids want to go to church early in the morning. You can worship at home though through prayer, singing, and reading the bible and remembering what we actually celebrate Christmas for. You dont have to go to Church to worship.

cheewiee

12-19-2005, 05:53 PM

Church's arent being lazy.

Sure... Would you like to argue your point...

Not all church's are this way. Only well..yours. and you can pray at home. and me being 15 i know that i would rather stay home and open up presents and spend little time with the family that i have rather than going to church. That may sound non-christian but very few children want to actually get up and go to church THAN come home and open the presents. no. they want to open up the presents first and than after that they want to play with them and EAT. very few kids want to go to church early in the morning. You can worship at home though through prayer, singing, and reading the bible and remembering what we actually celebrate Christmas for. You dont have to go to Church to worship.

So your saying that on a day that celebrates Christmas, Children would rather stay at home open presents, play with presents and EAT than to goto church?!?!?!?! ::DUMBFOUNDED LOOK HERE::

That is why children do not make important discisions.... Everythink you listed there is completly and udderly flesh derived....

Do you think that Jesus WANTED to leave the Glory of heaven and come to the Earth?! Do you think that Jesus WANTED to beaten beyond all recognition and hung on a cross to save our sorry selfs?!

I am not a legalistic person... but this lack of conviction in the church is frightening... The fact that we would not want to celbrate the birth of our Savior with others in our church body is scarry... I am officially convinced that the church has labeled conviction as legalisim and thrown it away...

TShafer

12-19-2005, 09:24 PM

Cheewiee, are you arguing from the standpoint of someone who attends church or someone (staff or volunteer) who has a family, but who is at church from 6am to 4pm on Sundays working?

Tom

TLJ

12-19-2005, 11:34 PM

It's hard for me to judge the churches that have opted to close. I have to admit it makes me raise an eyebrow, it's kind of weird to close for what has been considered by everyone to be a Christian holiday. We have several of each kind in the area. One reason might be because at Christmas a lot of people have to travel to see family. Sometimes it is the only time certain relatives can get together. Church staff and congregation may be out of town. I've volunteered on worship service planning committees & I know the logistics of putting a service together can be a pretty big task, especially when key people are not present on a Sunday. Our church is going to have only 1 service instead of 2 this coming Sunday. It will be pretty interesting to see how many people actually go this Sunday.

cheewiee

12-20-2005, 11:49 AM

Cheewiee, are you arguing from the standpoint of someone who attends church or someone (staff or volunteer) who has a family, but who is at church from 6am to 4pm on Sundays working?

Tom

What does it matter?!?!?!

I am the Director of Media Ministries... So I spend a good chunk of my normal Sunday at church, I don't have a problem spending 3 or so hours so people can gather to worship God, their King, on the day we celebrate as his birth...

jesusnewspaper

12-20-2005, 12:59 PM

I am a teenager and i know what MOST teenagers want but then agian thats why we still have parents isnt it? to tell us when weve been overruled! in my case i WANT to attend church on christmas my family dosnt so i go without them!

TShafer

12-20-2005, 10:14 PM

What does it matter?!?!?!

I am the Director of Media Ministries... So I spend a good chunk of my normal Sunday at church, I don't have a problem spending 3 or so hours so people can gather to worship God, their King, on the day we celebrate as his birth...

Sure, and no one would dispute that over 3 hours, I don't think. I know we decided not to have services (and it's not like we have a building, so that makes things even tougher) because we didn't want our volunteers to go home and tell their families "sorry, I'm not going to be home at all today. I know we always spend family time together on Christmas, but I'm going to be at church for 9 hours (16 if we did youth services) and when I get home, I'll be exhausted." Sure, most of them would do it because they love making the corporate services happen, but it's not fair of us to ask that of their families.

Having said that, I also certainly have no problem with churches who ARE holding services. Neither, for the most part, do I have a problem with people asking questions of those churches that don't. Debate is healthy. Questions are HEALTHY and vital to our Faith. The name-calling that seems to be going on around this topic is a bit childish, but in the grand scheme of things it is terribly insignificant. It doesn't mess with my faith to see churches not meeting corporately this Sunday. My faith isn't built on church buildings or congregations or on the Christmas holiday and this whole mess doesn't conflict with that at all.

That is my personal conviction. Yours is obviously different, and that's fine. It also doesn't mess with my faith to see that others disagree with me. There may NOT be a "right" answer. Maybe there is and one of us can't see it. I don't know. I do know that calling names like "lazy" or "selfish" or "legalistic" is a surefire way to cause problems.

It's so interesting to me that in many areas God requires the the one thing we can so easily fake - pure motives. Who am I to call into question your motives for creating this thread? Do I know you? Am I in your situation with your experiences? Of course not, so I have no view into your motives, deep inside where it counts. Could you simply be trying to cause trouble? Sure. Could you be trying to spark a debate? Certainly. Could you be trying to raise awareness of something you see as wrong? More than likely. I may have my ideas, but that's all they are - vague and almost certainly wrong as they are. I make no claims as to knowing what your motives are behind this very thread. I would hope no one would try. How much harder, then, would it be for us to try to correctly ascertain the motives of entire church bodies for why they do things? How much more difficult is it to jump into a discussion in which we don't know all the players? I can speak for my church in saying that we wrestled with this decision for a long time. We prayed about it. We worked through it. In the end, this is the decision we came to and we've had both positive and negative feedback.

I can't speak for any other church, just my own; and that's the entire point. Unless you intend to play god for a bit, there is no way to simply look at a situation and 100% correctly know what motives were behind a given set of actions. Maybe some churches were simply "lazy." But I'm willing to bet that more went into these decisions than you might think.

Tom

sandie

12-21-2005, 02:45 AM

Tom: There's a song around that you might have heard of. ;) :D

It has a chorus that begins:
How do you know, how do you know
What I'm suppose to be doing?

As you say, let's not assume motives for Churches (or individuals) making their decisions.

BTW: Is there a typo. in the words of the chorus in the booklet that comes with WEYA?

Sandra.

12-21-2005, 11:41 AM

Pastors, deacons, & church staff are not the only people that would like to be "off" on Christmas day. My husband works in a hospital which is, obviously, open every day of the year whether it's a holiday, a Sunday, a hurricane, a birthday, etc. I can't remember the last time he was off on Christmas. Now that our kids are older (& two of them have worked Christmas day, too, at the movie theater), if he's not scheduled, he usually volunteers to work at least a few hours of someone else's shift who has small children so that they can spend time with their families. We've always arranged our Christmas day around jobs (I used to work in a nursing home). It also was my father-in-law's birthday (he's been gone 4 yrs now) & we always tried to keep that celebration separate from the Christmas one, so that he could feel special. I know there are a lot of jobs that require a committment of time & service, no matter what day it is... military men & women, policemen, firemen, drs, emts, pharmacists, funeral home workers, tow truck drivers, etc. There will always be someone that would love to be home for Christmas, BUT, there will always be someone that NEEDS something on Christmas day (church workers included)... a forgotten ingredient for Christmas dinner, gas, a tow out of a snowy ditch, diapers, a prescription for a sick child, a visit to the ER after falling on the ice... and when people need these things, they expect someone to be available to meet those needs. It's the same with church goers on Christmas. If they feel they need to be in church, they'll expect someone to be there to meet that need. Christmas doesn't fall on a Sunday every year... but Sunday is always Sunday to them. I agree, it's up to each church to decide whether to hold services or not. It would be nice if everything would close on Christmas day so that everyone could spend it however they wanted, with whoever they wanted... unfortunately, nurses can't just leave patients without care for a whole day & firemen can't just let fires burn. Just because it's Christmas day doesn't mean everyone can have that perfect family holiday. Life happens everyday and there will always be the unexpected, requiring someone to have to give up some of their own Christmas to meet someone elses needs. If YOU should be so unfortunate to have to seek medical care, or need a jump or a tow, or a stick of butter, please be sure to take a minute to thank the person that meets YOUR need.
I have really gotten a lot out of reading everyone's posts here. I think I came into this discussion biased by my first initial reaction. I apologize if I offended anyone & my prayer is that each of you here, will have the Christmas day you're wishing for. Whatever that may be, I also pray that you will be touched by the Spirit & feel His love throughout your celebrations. And... while I initially felt churches needed to be open, I see that it really all comes down to what's in each one's heart. I've decided I'll forgo church afterall myself and go down to the soup kitchen to serve up a few plates of warm meals to the homeless. I think that would be more pleasing to the Lord than to serve up my rearend on a warm pew.
Merry Christmas all!

middletree

12-21-2005, 01:10 PM

when people need these things, they expect someone to be available to meet those needs. It's the same with church goers on Christmas. If they feel they need to be in church, they'll expect someone to be there to meet that need.

If they feel the need to go to a church, they should find an open one. They're not all closed.

I would like to see my church open, with one pastor their to pray with anyone who shows up. So even though I side with the churches who opt to close, I acknowledge that both sides have some merit to their argument.

If YOU should be so unfortunate to have to seek medical care, or need a jump or a tow, or a stick of butter,

This is where I am not on board with you. Nobody needs a stick of butter.

When I had to work 7 Thanksgivings in a row while working for a grocery story, I was furious just looking at the people who came in to shop. Their insistence on shopping that day was the only reason we were open, and therefore the only reason I couldn't have Thanksgiving with my family. Medical needs are unexpected and their is no way to plan for them. Thanksgiving is always the 4th Thursday in November, and people should plan for it.

go down to the soup kitchen to serve up a few plates of warm meals to the homeless. I think that would be more pleasing to the Lord than to serve up my rearend on a warm pew.

Now, that is a great idea!