Islamic Fundamentalism

[blacksheep]

I will be blowing of a little steam here for the next few sentances so if you stick around keep that in mind. Are the "fundamentalist" the "true" muslims? Meaning, that if you follow what the Qaran(however u spell it 'cause i don't feel like looking it up) really states, what side are you on. Are you peacefull or do you cut the heads of anybody isn't a muslim? I hold the opinion that you are the latter. This is steming from those quakers using the name "Christian" Peackeeper Teams who were captured a few weeks ago. These people have been in Iraq and Afganistan underming and putting at risk Coalition forces and missions in the region. They preach absolute non-violence. In reality, if a quaker saw a woman being raped and then blugened to death he/she would do nothing to stop it other than through up a prayer, given that they are a quaker who actually believes in God. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with prayer, it's the first thing I would do. Let's just say that I wouldn't stop there. The reality is that in Iraq and Afganistan we are fighting some very disturbed and blodd thirsty people. If you need an example go to micheal savage's website(not a fan myself) and watch the beheadings of civilians. It's extremely graphic but that is reality. These are not military or even people who had been fighting in the area. Most of the beheadings have been western contractors setting up basic utilities for the Iraqi's. It reminds me of when in Vietnam, US Special Forces would go into villages and inaculate the children for common ailments, then when the SF guys would come back later on, they would find the children of the village with an arm cut off. The viet-cong would cut off their freaking arms! Does anybody else find that outrages? Should something be done to stop that? I know that war is just a band-aid, or mabye even just a purging. I know that the real change will only come when the people change, but should we sit around and allow them to act like wild banchees?

[Ehud Elijah]

The Taliban, Wahabi's, "Extremists"...etc. are practicing Islam as Muhammad both intended, AND practiced himself (as is seen in the Hadith). The Islamic principle of "Naskh" is progressive revelation, meaning Muhammad's most recent revelations take precedent over all previous conflicting revelations. This is one reason why there are contradictions in the Koran. Muhammad became increasingly violent as he gained power.

Mark Gabriel, a former Muslim, has written several books on the subject. He was a Muslim, a prodigy in the study of Islam, and had memorized the entire Koran by the age of 14. He was the goldenboy of Al Azhar in Egypt (the oldest and most prestigious Muslim university in the world). He began questioning his faith, and then rejected it, which led on a long path to Christ.
We should pray for Muslims, that God would show them the Truth of Jesus Christ, and that works will not gain one's entry into heaven, but only faith in Christ. However, we should also not be deceived about true Islam.

[ReinaMissy]

What's your source of information for your statements, Ehud? Where did you learn these things?

[Ehud Elijah]

You can find Dr. Mark Gabriel's books at Amazon.com, or perhaps your local christian bookstore.
I've also read the Koran and some of the Hadith. The principle of naskh (abrogation) is referred to in the Qur'an itself and is not a later historical development, and is imperative in explaining the difference in Muhammad's Meccan and Medinan missions.

[ReinaMissy]

I'll check those out; thanks.

I don't know, so I'm not challenging you. I'm curious, though, because I have seen a lot of inter-faith dialogue between Christians and Muslims. The Muslims who are part of these talks are nothing like what you state. Are they not real Muslims, then, or do they take a very liberal view of the Qu'ran?

[Ehud Elijah]

They take a more liberal view of the Koran. They believe Jihad is, and should be, an internal spiritual struggle. Many of these liberal, or westernized, muslims do not advocate violence and do not agree with terrorism. In the West we will see scores and scores of these Muslims, but few fundamentalists. As is often true in any religion, the closer you get to a certain religions historical base, the more likely it is that the religion is being practiced in it's purer form, more traditional form. For example, Roman Catholicism here vs. in Rome. Or another example would be Hindiusm practiced here vs. in Calcutta India. Finally, Islam practiced here vs. in Mecca.

I am in no way equating Catholicism with Hinduism or Islam, and firmly believe every christian should watch Father Corapi on EWTN.

[jesusnewspaper]

i have to agree with you! i have afreind who is a muslim but not devout and her grand parents who live in India are devout Muslims so she gets alot of steem for being my freind in her grandparents i should be converted or murdered!

[Howlin' Wolf]

impressive ehud. i had no clue you were aware of the principle of abrigation(naskh) as it pertains to the koran.

i lived in the middle east for 2 years. i never met a "terrorist". i had friends affiliated with Hamas and Hezbollah. ive dialogued with muslims from all over. to say that only the western muslims are liberal is incorrect. 99 percent of all muslims care about the same things you do. they want to provide for the families, be in love, send their kids to school...etc etc. they view jihad as a holy war that occurs within themselves, in the same way that we do. the only time they justify war is self defense. and it warrants mentioning, that i never met 2 muslims that had the same views outside of those contained in the 5 pillars. the koran is extremely hard to understand. most muslims will acceot whatever the imam tells them in reference to hard passages. and most imams and mosque leaders arent out calling for suicide bombings. it is not wise to confuse the politics of islam with the spiritual side. islam doesnt motivate terror attacks. islam only justifies it. if there was no islam, there would still be terror attacks. our foreign policy is the reason for these attacks

[jesusnewspaper]

sorry didnt mean they all take that veiw but it is there and believe me i dont plan on see my freinds grandparents anytime soon! if i did id be dead! were caqlled to be witnsesses not dead men! i understand many muslims are not so literal vwith the koran but we still have to remember who THEIR god is if we ever want them to become christians! now if youd rather they not jion us fine but be carful our calling as christiuans is to bring them to christ not kill them!

[middletree]

our foreign policy is the reason for these attacks

No, Satan is. Just like he's behind every instance of adultery, embezzling, murder, and other sins. People who don't like our support of Israel do not have to carry out terrorist attacks.

[Grank]

No, Satan is. Just like he's behind every instance of adultery, embezzling, murder, and other sins. People who don't like our support of Israel do not have to carry out terrorist attacks.

yeah... so blame satan... satan's punishment is already in store for him... people need to be held accountable for what they do... it's not the devil's fault if i cheat on a test or shoot somebody in the face... it's my fault. So we can't blame satan for what they do and we can't blame our policies for what they do... the only person that can be held accountable for ones actions is the person himself...

tulip, i usually agree with the things you say dude, but i see the "terrorist" attacks. it sucks man... to see somebody come in who has just gotten hit with a roadside or vehicle bourne improvised explosive device and then have to treat them and load them on a bird is not cool. The guys who don't make it just look like hamburger meat... so don't tell me it's our fault that we get attacked.

[middletree]

You're missing my point. I probably didn't word it very well. Let's put it this way: Suicide bombing, and other forms of terrorist attacks are bad. Mature people with more brains than an average bowl of Cool Whip will not be forced into doing such bad things simply because the US supports Israel's right to exist.

Issat better?

[ObiShawn]

our foreign policy is the reason for these attacksThen what about the attacks in Madrid or in England? Do they share the same foreign policies as the US? It's racism founded on religous beliefs. It's Nazi-ism all over again.

[HotWireD]

Then what about the attacks in Madrid or in England? Do they share the same foreign policies as the US? It's racism founded on religous beliefs. It's Nazi-ism all over again.

The attacks in Madrid and in London were because (or so they said) our (Spain's and Great Britain's) supprt of US policy in Iraq and Afganistan.

I own opinion is that killing and terrorising people because you do not agree with their policies is wrong. The people who die in these attacks are not responsible for foreign policy. Most people, regardless of race or religion just want to get on with their lives without persecution. I hear this from Christians, pagans and Muslims all the time.

There are always going to be 'angry young men' who can be taken advantage of by these organisations.

The Irish Terror organisations were funded by some Americans, these organisations killed British and Irish people, it never made me want to kill Americans.

[Howlin' Wolf]

yeah... so blame satan... satan's punishment is already in store for him... people need to be held accountable for what they do... it's not the devil's fault if i cheat on a test or shoot somebody in the face... it's my fault. So we can't blame satan for what they do and we can't blame our policies for what they do... the only person that can be held accountable for ones actions is the person himself...

tulip, i usually agree with the things you say dude, but i see the "terrorist" attacks. it sucks man... to see somebody come in who has just gotten hit with a roadside or vehicle bourne improvised explosive device and then have to treat them and load them on a bird is not cool. The guys who don't make it just look like hamburger meat... so don't tell me it's our fault that we get attacked.

there is no such thing as a terrorist attack in war. you see war injuries. what occurred on 9/11 and more recently in amman are terror attacks. what is occuring in iraq guerilla warfare

[middletree]

there is no such thing as a terrorist attack in war. you see war injuries. what occurred on 9/11 and more recently in amman are terror attacks. what is occuring in iraq guerilla warfare
I agree with this. Good explanation for the distinction, Jason.

Now, I'll ask you: A Palestinian in Israel brings a bomb onto a busy bus full of Israelis. Terrorism? Justifiable?

[Evanescence]

I read a non-slanted book about the Koran and Islam.

The way they treat their women is horrible and the Koran gives them license to do so.

If you read the Koran, you can tell they are way out there and God isn't with them.

I have no respect for the Koran. I respect Muslims and believe that many WILL go to heaven. But the Koran promtes evil.

Jihad is a big part of the Koran and is encouraged.

E

[Grank]

there is no such thing as a terrorist attack in war. you see war injuries. what occurred on 9/11 and more recently in amman are terror attacks. what is occuring in iraq guerilla warfare

there is when the people injured are civilians who come it to get medical care from us...

[Howlin' Wolf]

there is when the people injured are civilians who come it to get medical care from us...

and how many of these civilians did the coalition forces injure?


Now, I'll ask you: A Palestinian in Israel brings a bomb onto a busy bus full of Israelis. Terrorism? Justifiable?

i'd say it was terrorism. if it were a bus full of soldiers, maybe i'd say different. to understand the israeli-palestinian conflict, you have to put yourself in both parties' shoes. in the palestinian mind, the israeli settler is the enemy, whether he be civilian or soldier, because he is the invader. in the israeli mind, the palestinian has no rights and is not under a brutal occupation.

islamic fundamentalism stems from sub par socioeconomic conditions. islamic fundamentalism is secular politics dressed up in religion. people dont tend to question religion. islamic fundamentalism will always arise when the people are oppressed, and never the other way around. in short, its an excuse to fight. its a cause to fight for. and it empowers the downtrodden and equips them with the tools to fight.

often times in america, we like to label any one that is against our policies as terrorists. hezballah has never attacked israel in israel. they drove israel out of lebanon in the civil war, yet because they are funded from iran, they are considered terrorists.

[HotWireD]

i'd say it was terrorism. if it were a bus full of soldiers, maybe i'd say different.

I cannot confirm this anecdote but I have been told by several ex-soldiers that served in Northern Ireland that the Real IRA only attacked government institutions and the armed forces. They called themselves an 'army' and so only fought the 'occupying forces'.

Other groups attacked civillians as well and were considered terrorists by the Real IRa and the British Government. I think the British Government called the Real IRA terrorists as well.


often times in america, we like to label any one that is against our policies as terrorists. hezballah has never attacked israel in israel. they drove israel out of lebanon in the civil war, yet because they are funded from iran, they are considered terrorists.

The IRA were funded by organisations in the US. Although the US Government labelled them terrorists, NorAid labelled them as 'Freedom fighters' I believe.

'Horses for courses' if they kill civillians, I say.

[Grank]

and how many of these civilians did the coalition forces injure?






none on purpose and not as many as saddam...