(Rant) The victim mentality in modern Christianity

[middletree]

I got yet another email last night from a well-meaning relative. It said something about how the ACLU wouldn't let some Marines pray at some ceremony. I placed it in the same folder (trash) as other emails I have received in recent years, describing how Madelyn Murray O'Hair is getting the FCC to force radio stations to end Christian radio programming, and then there's the one which says that Janet Reno is suspicious of Christians who go to home bible studies.

The above-mentioned stories turned out to be false, yet gullible people keep forwarding them anyway. I'm not sure why someone somewhere made these stories up, but it really bothers me that they would, and it saddens me that people believe them.

So part 1 of my rant is directed toward those who make up, and those who pass along, false stories like this without trying to see if they are true. (Snopes.com is a great way to check, but then again, so is common sense)

Now comes part 2: Even if those stories are true, so what? Jesus warned us that part of the package of being a Christian is that the world will be against you. But when I read about the great men and women of the bible, I don't see them whining about the deck being stacked against them. I suspect that if Paul came back today, and heard Christians complaining that we can't have the Ten Commandments in some court building in Alabama, he'd laugh his butt off, then he'd slap us all silly, and tell us to focus on advancing the Kingdom.


Imagine you’re watching a basketball game, and the camera focuses on only one end of the court: the goal that your opponent is shooting at. You watch the whole game, see 80 points get scored, and assume you’re losing. Meanwhile, your team has been scoring 120 points at the other end of the game, but you never know it because you were focused only on what the other side was doing well.

That’s what I mean by the victim mentality. Entire "ministries", like the American Family Association, seem to exist only to complain about liberals. How the heck is that ministering to anyone? Let’s quit worrying about whether or not we’re going to be able to have a nativity scene or say “under God” in the pledge, or have a big rock with the Ten Commandments on it, and instead, carry out the orders given to us:


James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

[kh294God]

I agree...i hate that people are always talking being offended or "I am the victim here"...you made so good points

[jrmitch]

.....and I fully agree. :D

Thought you and others responding to this thread - whether they agree or not - might also find this commentary interesting. My advice to all is to read it carefully and prayerfully... ;)

http://sierratimes.com/03/11/12/ar_dorothy.htm

[RevZeek]

Hear hear! Do you mind if I pass your rant along to some well-meaning friends of mine?

[Corrine]

So part 1 of my rant is directed toward those who make up, and those who pass along, false stories like this without trying to see if they are true. (Snopes.com is a great way to check, but then again, so is common sense)

Oh, how I hate that! I used to think it was just the people who had just gotten email for the first time in their lives, and didn't know any better. But I've been getting forwards like these from people who ought to know better for years! I keep telling them the same thing, DO NOT PASS ANYTHING ON UNLESS YOU FIRST VERIFY IT FOR YOURSELF! Otherwise, you are guilty of lying, spreading rumors, and fear mongering! Not to mention wasting people's time. I'd say about 85% of the forwards I get are false.

Satan is a thief. The more of your time he can steal with crap like this, the less time you have for important things like building the kingdom. I very rarely read anything with FW: in the subject line. It's even more rare for me to pass them on. I especially hate the ones that tell you that God will make your wish come true if you pass it on to 10 of your friends in the next hour. That is superstitious voodoo. (Sorry, I got a little off the subject.)

[shelleybeansMAN]

Oh, how I hate that! I used to think it was just the people who had just gotten email for the first time in their lives, and didn't know any better. But I've been getting forwards like these from people who ought to know better for years! I keep telling them the same thing, DO NOT PASS ANYTHING ON UNLESS YOU FIRST VERIFY IT FOR YOURSELF! Otherwise, you are guilty of lying, spreading rumors, and fear mongering! Not to mention wasting people's time. I'd say about 85% of the forwards I get are false.

Satan is a thief. The more of your time he can steal with crap like this, the less time you have for important things like building the kingdom. I very rarely read anything with FW: in the subject line. It's even more rare for me to pass them on. I especially hate the ones that tell you that God will make your wish come true if you pass it on to 10 of your friends in the next hour. That is superstitious voodoo. (Sorry, I got a little off the subject.)
...If you pass this along to all your friends, a special blessing will come into your life...but if you dont something bad could happen to you...yeah right! :p

[AshleeDru]

Great post. You're totally right.

[Aaron]

YES!!! This drives me crazy when I get these, after telling the person who sent them not to send them again. My sister and her friends foward those things all over the internet and they're getting in trouble.

[servant]

Oh, how I hate that! I used to think it was just the people who had just gotten email for the first time in their lives, and didn't know any better. But I've been getting forwards like these from people who ought to know better for years! I keep telling them the same thing, DO NOT PASS ANYTHING ON UNLESS YOU FIRST VERIFY IT FOR YOURSELF! Otherwise, you are guilty of lying, spreading rumors, and fear mongering! Not to mention wasting people's time. I'd say about 85% of the forwards I get are false.

Satan is a thief. The more of your time he can steal with crap like this, the less time you have for important things like building the kingdom.


Waiting for the tomatoes to start flyin but....

How much "Kingdom Building" is done while ranting on Third Day Boards? Just wondering -

servant-

[mpowell]

How much "Kingdom Building" is done asking this question...this could forever if you keep pointing your fingure.

[middletree]

Waiting for the tomatoes to start flyin but....

How much "Kingdom Building" is done while ranting on Third Day Boards? Just wondering -

servant-
Since I started this thread with a rant, I'll answer. I am not avoiding kingdom building by spending time here. I am avoiding work. So there. :p

[jrmitch]

Waiting for the tomatoes to start flyin but....

How much "Kingdom Building" is done while ranting on Third Day Boards? Just wondering -

servant-You might be amazed. We all have a shared responsibility in the body of Christ to build up, edify, exhort, encourage, and, when necessary, correct one another. All of those happen regularly on these boards, and many of us can testify as to how our faith continues to be sharpened by ongoing dialogue in forms such as this.

One of the biggest mistakes I see many believers consistently make is to refuse to allow themselves to develop relationships - both within and outside of the church - that will challenge what they believe and why they believe it. I can vouch that Middletree (among several others) has constantly driven me to not only be sure of what I believe but has at times also shown me where I've been in error. And it often started with a rant just like this one. :)

[ObiShawn]

Now comes part 2: Even if those stories are true, so what? Jesus warned us that part of the package of being a Christian is that the world will be against you. But when I read about the great men and women of the bible, I don't see them whining about the deck being stacked against them. I suspect that if Paul came back today, and heard Christians complaining that we can't have the Ten Commandments in some court building in Alabama, he'd laugh his butt off, then he'd slap us all silly, and tell us to focus on advancing the Kingdom.
What about when Paul used his rights as a Roman citizen to avoid a scourging?
Acts 22:22-30
22 And they listened to him until this word, and then they raised their voices and said, "Away with such a fellow from the earth, for he is not fit to live!"
23 Then, as they cried out and tore off their clothes and threw dust into the air,
24 the commander ordered him to be brought into the barracks, and said that he should be examined under scourging, so that he might know why they shouted so against him.
25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who stood by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman, and uncondemned?"
26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the commander, saying, "Take care what you do, for this man is a Roman."
27 Then the commander came and said to him, "Tell me, are you a Roman?" He said, "Yes."
28 The commander answered, "With a large sum I obtained this citizenship." And Paul said, "But I was born a citizen."
29 Then immediately those who were about to examine him withdrew from him; and the commander was also afraid after he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.
30 The next day, because he wanted to know for certain why he was accused by the Jews, he released him from his bonds, and commanded the chief priests and all their council to appear, and brought Paul down and set him before them.
(NKJ)I could care less about hanging the Ten Commandments. If they want to take "In God we trust" off the money or "under God" out of the pledge, I could care less about that as well. But those things, as minor as they are, are just the first steps in neutralizing Christanity all together. There'll be plenty of time for persecution, as we all know that it will come eventually, but what is the problem with using our constitutionally given rights while we still have the freedom to spread the gospel?

[dpandtammy]

Excellent thread!!! I wholeheartedly agree with you, Tree!! Very well said. And I totally agree about the email forwards. I mean, God is NOT going to bless me more if I "send this to 10 people in the next 10 minutes", or get me out of debt in 2006 if "I just pray this prayer" and then forward to all my friends!! I have been telling my family that it is a form of "voodoo" for years, and still I get flooded.
All of the examples cited are satan's way of keeping us "too busy" for actual TIME WITH GOD...... Like you, I am all for putting the 10 commandments in public places, but if "they" are not all for it, who cares? That should not affect my day to day walk with God. THe Gospel is not spread by a rock with the 10 Commandments, or "in God We Trust" on our money. That all means nothing to an unbeliever. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Romans 10:17 No one is gonna be saved because we say "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance, while it is not a bad idea, but that is out number one purpose on this earth: to add to the Kingdom.
WoW! Thank you, Tree, for this refreshing word! Now I am going to open up the Word and study some more!! (which proves these boards are not idleness)
Many times after reading some of these posts, I am prompted to dig deeper!!

~~God Bless~~
Tammy

[RevZeek]

What about when Paul used his rights as a Roman citizen to avoid a scourging?
I could care less about hanging the Ten Commandments. If they want to take "In God we trust" off the money or "under God" out of the pledge, I could care less about that as well. But those things, as minor as they are, are just the first steps in neutralizing Christanity all together. There'll be plenty of time for persecution, as we all know that it will come eventually, but what is the problem with using our constitutionally given rights while we still have the freedom to spread the gospel?

I see what you're saying here Shawn, but I don't think that's what Middletree is saying at all. A lot of people have replaced actual sharing of the gospel with all of this political protesting etc.

[ReinaMissy]

But Zeek, what if Shawn is stating that in the course of protest, we proselytize?

Isn't that what we should do?

[jrmitch]

Not necessarily. (I know I'm not Zeek, but let me get my shot in anyway.......those who didn't use their tomatoes earlier may want to use 'em on me after I'm done. :D) We just started a study of Jesus parables tonight at church, and our pastor brought out one of the key reasons why Jesus used parables in the first place: not everyone has ears to hear.

I'll come back to what I said earlier: we can't avoid being around offensive behavior in the world because that is the world. I know that many believers feel obligated to correct misbehavior by those who are offensive to us, but that is not biblical. There's a very good reason why many non-believers find most Christians offensive: we deserve to be viewed that way. Many of us are pushy in our beliefs, arrogant in our faith, and condemning in our vilification of those who dare to feel challenged or threatened by our conduct.

Look, I'm not saying that we shouldn't share our faith or our hope in Jesus. But there's a vast difference between always being ready with an answer and forcing the answer on ears that don't want to listen. God's pretty good about drawing people our way who will be ready to hear what we have to share. But scripturally speaking, it's not our responsibility - or right - to convict people of sin or demand they adjust their conduct and lifestyle to accomodate our comfort level. The heathens around us are gonna continue to go on being heathens.......it's just what they do. And if we can't deal with it, then they're not the only ones who have a problem............ :(

[Grank]

Not necessarily. (I know I'm not Zeek, but let me get my shot in anyway.......those who didn't use their tomatoes earlier may want to use 'em on me after I'm done. :D) We just started a study of Jesus parables tonight at church, and our pastor brought out one of the key reasons why Jesus used parables in the first place: not everyone has ears to hear.

I'll come back to what I said earlier: we can't avoid being around offensive behavior in the world because that is the world. I know that many believers feel obligated to correct misbehavior by those who are offensive to us, but that is not biblical. There's a very good reason why many non-believers find most Christians offensive: we deserve to be viewed that way. Many of us are pushy in our beliefs, arrogant in our faith, and condemning in our vilification of those who dare to feel challenged or threatened by our conduct.

Look, I'm not saying that we shouldn't share our faith or our hope in Jesus. But there's a vast difference between always being ready with an answer and forcing the answer on ears that don't want to listen. God's pretty good about drawing people our way who will be ready to hear what we have to share. But scripturally speaking, it's not our responsibility - or right - to convict people of sin or demand they adjust their conduct and lifestyle to accomodate our comfort level. The heathens around us are gonna continue to go on being heathens.......it's just what they do. And if we can't deal with it, then they're not the only ones who have a problem............ :(

it's very unfortunate that you are in the minority of Christians in seeing that

[ObiShawn]

I may have misunderstood middletree's original post and meaning. I am not in favor of getting up at arms about issues and with political protesting. I think that is silly and unproductive.

What I was trying to say is that under the constitution, we as Christians have certain rights. And there are certain groups, liberals, the ACLU, or whatever other groups, that are trying to neutralize Christanity. I was trying to say that since we do have rights, we should use them in stead of letting the groups run us underground just because pursecution is going to come anyway.

[jrmitch]

I may have misunderstood middletree's original post and meaning. I am not in favor of getting up at arms about issues and with political protesting. I think that is silly and unproductive.

What I was trying to say is that under the constitution, we as Christians have certain rights. And there are certain groups, liberals, the ACLU, or whatever other groups, that are trying to neutralize Christanity. I was trying to say that since we do have rights, we should use them in stead of letting the groups run us underground just because pursecution is going to come anyway.Obishawn, I understand what you're saying and agree: the constitution definitely gives us certain rights, and I'll also agree that those rights are challenged on many fronts.

However, that doesn't change our responsibility in how we respond to those challenges: no matter how justified it may seem, it must always reflect the nature of Jesus in what we say and how we say it. But that's often not the case; I've seen (and continue to see) many more occasions where well intentioned believers have destroyed any testimony they have by the vindictiveness of their response. If our conduct itself is offensive then there's something wrong with our conduct - even if it's in the name of Jesus.

[ObiShawn]

However, that doesn't change our responsibility in how we respond to those challenges: no matter how justified it may seem, it must always reflect the nature of Jesus in what we say and how we say it. But that's often not the case; I've seen (and continue to see) many more occasions where well intentioned believers have destroyed any testimony they have by the vindictiveness of their response. If our conduct itself is offensive then there's something wrong with our conduct - even if it's in the name of Jesus.I agree completely. I hope my posts do not seem to suggest that I feel differently.

There may be a fine line between defending one's own rights and pushing a political agenda, but in no way to I approve of Christians trying to force their own political convictions on to others. As you said, " . . . scripturally speaking, it's not our responsibility - or right - to convict people of sin or demand they adjust their conduct and lifestyle to accomodate our comfort level. " I agree with you 100%.

[ReinaMissy]

I agree, Shawn. It bugs me, though, that the rights of those with other religious beliefs seem to be afforded more protection these days than do the rights of Christians.

At least that's the way it seems to me.

[jrmitch]

I agree completely. I hope my posts do not seem to suggest that I feel differently.

There may be a fine line between defending one's own rights and pushing a political agenda, but in no way to I approve of Christians trying to force their own political convictions on to others. As you said, " . . . scripturally speaking, it's not our responsibility - or right - to convict people of sin or demand they adjust their conduct and lifestyle to accomodate our comfort level. " I agree with you 100%.Nah, you're fine - I read you loud and clear.

And ReinaMissy is right: it does seem as though other beliefs are granted more protection than Christianity. However, that in itself is part and parcel of how our faith will always be treated. The Gospel itself is offensive; the world will continue to fight it tooth and toenail. Always has; always will until Jesus takes us all home. What truly bothers me is the large number of believers I continue to encounter who can't handle opposition to their faith because they don't understand that. :(

[ObiShawn]

and you're flawed... when did i say i disagree with you dude... maybe you should take a look at my post again... so how about instead of lashing out at me you actually read what i say and not into what i say... In jrmitch's defense, I gotta say that when I read your post, I had no idea how to take it. I could actually see it both ways (how you meant it and how Mitch took it) and it left me wondering which you really meant.

[jrmitch]

and you're flawed... when did i say i disagree with you dude... maybe you should take a look at my post again... wow... i said it is unfortunate that you are in the minority of Christians in that it seems like the majority of them do whatever makes them feel good about themselves in a self righteous manner that irks me dearly... in other words i was agreeing with you... so how about instead of lashing out at me you actually read what i say and not into what i say... i would never force any type of belief on anyone... if somebody wants to be wrong that's their right......and humbly ask that you'll accept my apology. :)

I've literally lost count of the number of similar discussions I've been in over the last few years, and I guess I didn't realize how much baggage I carried into this thread. So when I read your response I just reacted instead of thoughtfully responding. I know better; I obviously lost my head.

You certainly didn't deserve to be publicly flogged and I've removed that post from the thread. Thanks for the clarification and please forgive the harshness of my tone - I was out of line. :o

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Not necessarily. (I know I'm not Zeek, but let me get my shot in anyway.......those who didn't use their tomatoes earlier may want to use 'em on me after I'm done. :D) We just started a study of Jesus parables tonight at church, and our pastor brought out one of the key reasons why Jesus used parables in the first place: not everyone has ears to hear.

I'll come back to what I said earlier: we can't avoid being around offensive behavior in the world because that is the world. I know that many believers feel obligated to correct misbehavior by those who are offensive to us, but that is not biblical. There's a very good reason why many non-believers find most Christians offensive: we deserve to be viewed that way. Many of us are pushy in our beliefs, arrogant in our faith, and condemning in our vilification of those who dare to feel challenged or threatened by our conduct.

Look, I'm not saying that we shouldn't share our faith or our hope in Jesus. But there's a vast difference between always being ready with an answer and forcing the answer on ears that don't want to listen. God's pretty good about drawing people our way who will be ready to hear what we have to share. But scripturally speaking, it's not our responsibility - or right - to convict people of sin or demand they adjust their conduct and lifestyle to accomodate our comfort level. The heathens around us are gonna continue to go on being heathens.......it's just what they do. And if we can't deal with it, then they're not the only ones who have a problem............ :(


Quoted for Truth. Something highly applicable to the Christian employees thread (http://www.thirdday.com/boards/showthread.php?t=83809) as well. We tend to forget that this isn't a battle against men as Paul says. Trying to make everything look christian does nothing but sooth ones comfort zone. Telling someone about Christ, and telling somoeone to act like Christ (for your own spectating sake) are two very different things.

[RevZeek]

It appears we all pretty much agree but are all saying it a bit differently. That's how things usually end up anyway isn't it? :D

[bholdj]

I got yet another email last night from a well-meaning relative. It said something about how the ACLU wouldn't let some Marines pray at some ceremony. I placed it in the same folder (trash) as other emails I have received in recent years, describing how Madelyn Murray O'Hair is getting the FCC to force radio stations to end Christian radio programming, and then there's the one which says that Janet Reno is suspicious of Christians who go to home bible studies.

The above-mentioned stories turned out to be false, yet gullible people keep forwarding them anyway. I'm not sure why someone somewhere made these stories up, but it really bothers me that they would, and it saddens me that people believe them.

So part 1 of my rant is directed toward those who make up, and those who pass along, false stories like this without trying to see if they are true. (Snopes.com is a great way to check, but then again, so is common sense)

Now comes part 2: Even if those stories are true, so what? Jesus warned us that part of the package of being a Christian is that the world will be against you. But when I read about the great men and women of the bible, I don't see them whining about the deck being stacked against them. I suspect that if Paul came back today, and heard Christians complaining that we can't have the Ten Commandments in some court building in Alabama, he'd laugh his butt off, then he'd slap us all silly, and tell us to focus on advancing the Kingdom.


Imagine you’re watching a basketball game, and the camera focuses on only one end of the court: the goal that your opponent is shooting at. You watch the whole game, see 80 points get scored, and assume you’re losing. Meanwhile, your team has been scoring 120 points at the other end of the game, but you never know it because you were focused only on what the other side was doing well.

That’s what I mean by the victim mentality. Entire "ministries", like the American Family Association, seem to exist only to complain about liberals. How the heck is that ministering to anyone? Let’s quit worrying about whether or not we’re going to be able to have a nativity scene or say “under God” in the pledge, or have a big rock with the Ten Commandments on it, and instead, carry out the orders given to us:


James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

James,

This is on of the best post's I have seen you write in a long time. The "victim" mentality does get old. Yet I must say I have claimed that mentality many times.

Thanks for the wakeup call.

John

[bholdj]

I'll come back to what I said earlier: we can't avoid being around offensive behavior in the world because that is the world. I know that many believers feel obligated to correct misbehavior by those who are offensive to us, but that is not biblical. There's a very good reason why many non-believers find most Christians offensive: we deserve to be viewed that way. Many of us are pushy in our beliefs, arrogant in our faith, and condemning in our vilification of those who dare to feel challenged or threatened by our conduct.

Look, I'm not saying that we shouldn't share our faith or our hope in Jesus. But there's a vast difference between always being ready with an answer and forcing the answer on ears that don't want to listen. God's pretty good about drawing people our way who will be ready to hear what we have to share. But scripturally speaking, it's not our responsibility - or right - to convict people of sin or demand they adjust their conduct and lifestyle to accomodate our comfort level. The heathens around us are gonna continue to go on being heathens.......it's just what they do. And if we can't deal with it, then they're not the only ones who have a problem............ :(

Fantastic point, (begins to count the hairs on my head the amount of times i used to, and sometimes still do that!).

Very well written post.

Sola Christos

John

[prayercloth sis]

You might be amazed. We all have a shared responsibility in the body of Christ to build up, edify, exhort, encourage, and, when necessary, correct one another. All of those happen regularly on these boards, and many of us can testify as to how our faith continues to be sharpened by ongoing dialogue in forms such as this.

One of the biggest mistakes I see many believers consistently make is to refuse to allow themselves to develop relationships - both within and outside of the church - that will challenge what they believe and why they believe it. I can vouch that Middletree (among several others) has constantly driven me to not only be sure of what I believe but has at times also shown me where I've been in error. And it often started with a rant just like this one. :)


Amen...here...here...God Bless...and we all need to let off a little steam sometimes...and that's another reason why I love everyone here...for the most part we just allow everyone to be who they are...

scriptural reference...confess your faults one to another...

Confession is good for the soul...which is building on the kingdom...for we are the church...and it helps makes us better...so we can better help others...

I thank God for all the blessings that I have received since coming to these boards...

Sincerely

Rhonie

[jabob]

This is a great thread. Be prepared, the next "attack" people will start complaining about is the new show "The Book of Daniel". Yesterday at church, I was saying hello to someone and without even saying hello back, they asked, "Have you seen that show 'The Book of Daniel'"? I simply answered no and that I did not intend to see it. He asked if I had seen the previews and when I answered yes he went off on a rant about how it was unfair that "they" (whoever that is) could mock Christianity but "we" (again, a pronoun missing an antecedent) weren't allowed to say anything about homosexuality. I told him that whether he liked it or not, they have the right to put such programming on the air. He then began in on it being put out there for children to watch and ruin their minds. That's when I went into my standard answer about it being the parents', not the networks' responsibility to monitor what children watch. This rarely seems popular with those who have children and this time was no exception.
This brings me to a question I have asked for years now, "Why do Christians think they have a right to television?" This is not found in the Bible or the Constitution. Why do we (Christians) think we have a right to anything? I have a theory that these things are popular to rant about for two reasons. First, it is easy. "Howard Stern is bad!" Wow, way to take a stand.
Second, it allows us to distract others and more importantly ourselves from dealing with our own failings.
Sorry this was so long, but this has become a serious issue for me.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

This is a great thread. Be prepared, the next "attack" people will start complaining about is the new show "The Book of Daniel". Yesterday at church, I was saying hello to someone and without even saying hello back, they asked, "Have you seen that show 'The Book of Daniel'"? I simply answered no and that I did not intend to see it. He asked if I had seen the previews and when I answered yes he went off on a rant about how it was unfair that "they" (whoever that is) could mock Christianity but "we" (again, a pronoun missing an antecedent) weren't allowed to say anything about homosexuality. I told him that whether he liked it or not, they have the right to put such programming on the air. He then began in on it being put out there for children to watch and ruin their minds. That's when I went into my standard answer about it being the parents', not the networks' responsibility to monitor what children watch. This rarely seems popular with those who have children and this time was no exception.
This brings me to a question I have asked for years now, "Why do Christians think they have a right to television?" This is not found in the Bible or the Constitution. Why do we (Christians) think we have a right to anything? I have a theory that these things are popular to rant about for two reasons. First, it is easy. "Howard Stern is bad!" Wow, way to take a stand.
Second, it allows us to distract others and more importantly ourselves from dealing with our own failings.
Sorry this was so long, but this has become a serious issue for me.


Funny you mention that, because my pastor talked about it last night. He said that we should all do our part and email the local station urging them not to air it. I was a bit anoyed at that because he seems to have picked up on the whole political agenda a little more that usual :(.

That show actually seems kind of interesting. And if Christians wanted to, they could take it and run with it. From what I understand, it's about a pastor's disfunctional family, were he's addicted to some kind of medicine (can't remember the name), the wife is a borderline alcoholic and the kids have dramatic issues and so on, much like my family was but just not as problematic (my dad wasn't addicted to medicine and my mum wasn't an alcoholic but like any family, we had our issues). If the shocked and offended Christians wanted to, they could strip themselves of all their "perfection", admit that they too have problems like anyone else and then explain the reason for Grace.

[Jake]

I actually watched a little bit of that show. What I saw, it seemed like an OK half hour of entertainment. Do I agree with it theologically? No. Do I depend on NBC to get my theology? No. I would have watched the whole thing, but I was playing pool at a place up the road from our church when it was on.

Stop depending on the networks to be theological, or even moral, havens.

[bholdj]

This is a great thread. Be prepared, the next "attack" people will start complaining about is the new show "The Book of Daniel". Yesterday at church, I was saying hello to someone and without even saying hello back, they asked, "Have you seen that show 'The Book of Daniel'"? I simply answered no and that I did not intend to see it. He asked if I had seen the previews and when I answered yes he went off on a rant about how it was unfair that "they" (whoever that is) could mock Christianity but "we" (again, a pronoun missing an antecedent) weren't allowed to say anything about homosexuality. I told him that whether he liked it or not, they have the right to put such programming on the air. He then began in on it being put out there for children to watch and ruin their minds. That's when I went into my standard answer about it being the parents', not the networks' responsibility to monitor what children watch. This rarely seems popular with those who have children and this time was no exception.
This brings me to a question I have asked for years now, "Why do Christians think they have a right to television?" This is not found in the Bible or the Constitution. Why do we (Christians) think we have a right to anything? I have a theory that these things are popular to rant about for two reasons. First, it is easy. "Howard Stern is bad!" Wow, way to take a stand.
Second, it allows us to distract others and more importantly ourselves from dealing with our own failings.
Sorry this was so long, but this has become a serious issue for me.

When the whole Janet Jackson thing happened, my first question was. "Why are we surprised that this happend, when we shurg off the fact that a porn shop is just a click away on the internet?"

Seriously, im glad this is being talked about. I thought I was alone in my wakeup call to such things.

Anything close to God related in the world today should be seen as a privledge not a right. Regardless of what the Declearation of Independence says.

Sola Christos

John

[middletree]

This is a great thread. Be prepared, the next "attack" people will start complaining about is the new show "The Book of Daniel".

Actually, there have been at least three threads about this here already. Not to mention all the emails I got.

[jabob]

Actually, there have been at least three threads about this here already. Not to mention all the emails I got.
Sorry, I guess I should have checked to see if it had already been brought up.

[kiwisongbird]

Interesting thread...

I don't believe any country can give Christians rights that we can try to 'get' or 'keep'.... I think the only right I have is to be called a child of God.... and lots of other stuff comes with that - promised eternal life in the presence of God and persecution among other things...


When Nicodemus was really young he once said to us something like this........ we have Jesus - we have nothing else... He must be all we need eh??

I have to admit I used to read those silly emails but have stopped since a few really full on ones upset me when I found out they were NOT true... I find the ones that say if you pass them on then you will get a blessing - too much like chain letters or some kind of magic thing... God's not our magician who does tricks for us...

[musicjaytee]

Okay, so I totally agree with the forwarding of false and guilting e-mails, especially the Christians ones. However, the victim mentality is kinda true. I'm involved in this department at college that is an interfaith calling to ministry program. The point is to feel strong and proud in your faith, whatever it is, and to grow in your calling. The head of the department is the kind of person who causes the victim mentality. When the Christmas party came along, we were not allowed to put up anything Christian, it couldn't say Christmas, nothing. Two weeks later, there was a Hanukkah display. The reason why so many Christians feel 'attacked' isn't because there is resistance and suppression to Christianity, but but because there isn't this kind of stifling for other religions. It's kind of like the work place thread. It's offensive to people if you put a Christian music station on the radio, but it's ok to talk about the one night stand last week while swearing up a storm or listening to some station where they're bleeping every other word. Equal rights, fine. But this country can't seem to give one group basic rights without taking them from another.

[jrmitch]

Okay, so I totally agree with the forwarding of false and guilting e-mails, especially the Christians ones. However, the victim mentality is kinda true. I'm involved in this department at college that is an interfaith calling to ministry program. The point is to feel strong and proud in your faith, whatever it is, and to grow in your calling. The head of the department is the kind of person who causes the victim mentality. When the Christmas party came along, we were not allowed to put up anything Christian, it couldn't say Christmas, nothing. Two weeks later, there was a Hanukkah display. The reason why so many Christians feel 'attacked' isn't because there is resistance and suppression to Christianity, but but because there isn't this kind of stifling for other religions. It's kind of like the work place thread. It's offensive to people if you put a Christian music station on the radio, but it's ok to talk about the one night stand last week while swearing up a storm or listening to some station where they're bleeping every other word. Equal rights, fine. But this country can't seem to give one group basic rights without taking them from another.*Venting* - Grrrrrr......(not directed at you, musicjaytee......;) )

I don't think we're disputing whether it's true or not; it's pervasive in this country - but you don't really hear about it anywhere else. Much of the church has confused our cultural freedoms and constitutional protections with our scriptural obligations as believers - and they're not the same!!

I'm going to make a very strong statement here: I don't see how anyone who has seen the darkness of their own nature (apart from Jesus) and identifies with the obedience and suffering of Christ can embrace the mindset of the victim mentality. After all, what do we really have to complain about? 3 million believers were murdered by Rome in the first 300 years after Christ; all the Apostles were martyred; Paul himself wrote that we are to submit to all legal authority as unto God while at the same time Nero was beheading believers and using their heads to light his portico at night; even today thousands of Christians in other countries are jailed and even killed for their beliefs......and yet, we still have the freedom to gather together in public worship; openly publish and distribute Christian literature; and carry on web based discussions about our faith such as this one without fear of being jailed for sharing and talking about our faith. In it's self-centerdness much of the American church continues to complain about how the world finds our faith offensive and even *gasp* persecutes us for it while conveniently ignoring the clear teaching of scripture that it's gonna do so anyway. It reminds me of a two year old who's holding his breath and pouting because he didn't get his way. Give me a break!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I posted this earlier in the thread, but since I know many don't read through every single post I'll do so again, with an invitation to those who buy into the victim mentality mindset: read this first, then come back with a scriptural argument supporting the victim mentality. I'm serious - if anyone can provide solid scriptural support for what I see as primarily self-centered righteousness, I'd love to see it. Read on, people.........:)
http://sierratimes.com/03/11/12/ar_dorothy.htm

[bholdj]

*Venting* - Grrrrrr......(not directed at you, musicjaytee......;) )

I'm going to make a very strong statement here: I don't see how anyone who has seen the darkness of their own nature (apart from Jesus) and identifies with the obedience and suffering of Christ can embrace the mindset of the victim mentality. After all, what do we really have to complain about? 3 million believers were murdered by Rome in the first 300 years after Christ; all the Apostles were martyred; Paul himself wrote that we are to submit to all legal authority as unto God while at the same time Nero was beheading believers and using their heads to light his portico at night; even today thousands of Christians in other countries are jailed and even killed for their beliefs......and yet, we still have the freedom to gather together in public worship; openly publish and distribute Christian literature; and carry on web based discussions about our faith such as this one without fear of being jailed or legally punished in any manner for sharing and talking about our faith. In our self-centerdness the American church continues to complain about how the world finds our faith offensive and even *gasp* persecutes us for it while conveniently ignoring the clear teaching of scripture that it's gonna do so anyway. We're about as spoiled as a two year old who's holding his breath and pouting because he didn't get his way. Give me a break!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

]

Amen, coudn't agree more.

[steffen]

Great article, great thread!

I would say, though, that there's an exception when it comes to abortions. Those are not our rights, and shouldn't it be a Christian's job to fight for those who can't fight for themselves? I think part of the reason why people think it's a "religious thing" to be against abortion is that it drowns in all the other religious morals that the "church" try to spread.
Because in fact, abortion is not a matter of religion, it is a matter of how you view the fetus. If it's human you would be a rather bad person, even by the world's standard if you knowingly supported it. So shouldn't the whole debate be about whether the fetus is a human being? If we could all agree on that...

[musicjaytee]

I am going into prison ministry. I think I got the whole 'the world can't effect the message'. I'm also not going as far as to compare social persecution to martyrdom. I got that people will be offended and that we will be persecuted and it says so in the Bible. However, not everything in the world should be blamed on the white Christians. It's a matter of the double-standard double-talk and blatent denial of constitutional rights. These rights were written up by Christians to protect the right to hold and express your own personal beliefs, free from persecution. This constitution is supposedly upheld in a democracy, where the fundamental belief is that the majority rules. The frustration is rooted entirely in the fact that here we are, in the majority, being told that we cannot hold fast to the right we are given as citizens because the minority feels that if we express our faith in the same ways that they do, it denies their right. I don't doubt the ability of God to overcome any political bulldozing that may come about. However, I'm also not going to just sit back and pretend that the injustice doesn't exist. Someone posted before about how the heroes in the Bible didn't complain when they were persecuted and put through hardships. They didn't have a document that gave them the right to free speech and religious freedom and expression. We do.

[steffen]

Jesus didn't protest, though he had the right... but then again, he didn't want to be free.

[musicjaytee]

However, we have freedom through Christ. That freedom is reinforced in the constitution. Supposedly.

[bholdj]

However, we have freedom through Christ. That freedom is reinforced in the constitution. Supposedly.

Constantine reinforced the Christianity of Rome by drafting documents (the name of the document escapes me), but that dosen't mean Rome, or the "2nd rome" (Constaintinople) was successful in maintaining its "Christian nation" image. Rome fell by tradition in 476, and Constaintinople fell to the ottoman turks in the 1450's.

Lets see, Russia got its Christian origins from Constaintinople, Vladimir was told that his messengers didn't know if they "were on heaven or earth" the city was so glorious.

Of course , we all know what happened to Russia's "Christianity" now do we? Stalin and communist rule made anything remotley Christian in russia a distant memory, execpt in small orthodox circles.

Any country that clings to Christianity as a state religion has fallen. Christ, as C.S Lewis eloquently put it, is "a Deity of Theological, not political pursuits "and it should stay that way.

"In the world" Christ said "you will suffer persecution." But "fear not!!" Jesus said "I have over come the world!"

To bad individuals of the "victim" mentality try to overcome through courts, instead of Christ's main weapon, love.

Sola Christos

John

[jrmitch]

However, we have freedom through Christ. That freedom is reinforced in the constitution. Supposedly.No, it's not. Our spiritual freedoms through Christ (as discussed throughout the New Testament; specifically in Romans, Galations, and Colossians), have absolutely nothing to do with constitutional protection or freedom from persecution based upon the view of the majority. Even though many in the church believe those are supposedly our rights, there's no historical church precedent or scriptural support for such a view. :)

[bholdj]

No, it's not. Our spiritual freedoms through Christ (as discussed throughout the New Testament; specifically in Romans, Galations, and Colossians), have absolutely nothing to do with constitutional protection or freedom from persecution based upon the view of the majority. Even though many in the church believe those are supposedly our rights, there's no historical church precedent or scriptural support for such a view. :)

what he said :cool:

[musicjaytee]

The feeling of persecution has nothing to do with the strength of faith or knowledge of God's word. When a battle is launched to make it illegal to preach certain things that do not fall into the category of hatred or infringement upon the safety of individuals, that is persecution. When only one religion is attacked, while that same government also allows public rallies by groups like the KKK, that is going against the constitution. I can laugh when TV shows make fun of Christianity because many times it is true. However, when I am told that I cannot express my faith because we must not offend anyone, amidst people who can express theirs, I have a problem. I go to a school where there is a class on Judaism, Muslim and a general world religions. There is a single Christian ethics class in which Christians are blamed for every problem in the world. Our school paper includes in every issue a guy who writes about how stupid and insulting to God all conservatives are, and another who writes in every issue that all whites are racist, and if they don't think they are, it's subconscious. Many people have tried to join the paper, but any pro-christian writer is not allowed to write any article that doesn't simply cover an event. We also recently had, in our chapel, a Muslim footbath installed. We are not allowed to display a cross in the chapel in a place where it will remain in plain sight. Both the cross and the Bible sit in an alcove on the 'stage' (not the altar) where a curtain can be drawn to hide it when needed. They also recently tried to organize a Wiccan group on campus. My school is affiliated with the UCC and the Niebuhrs. The student population is Roman Catholic by a 45% majority. Our chaplain scheduled three pro-homosexuality speakers (including the annual pride week, which leads to the end of the week event of coming out day), faught against Robert Gagnon and refused to allow a rally to be held or promoted on campus then organized a counter one. Don't twist it around into bellyaching for lack of faith or understanding. Don't think that we don't find our own way to get the message out anyways. It is simply a recognition of the truth that we are denied the right to express our faith just as freely as everyone else is. If the KKK can hold their own rally and the government will protect their rights, they should protect ours.

[musicjaytee]

Forgot this in my rantings ;) . I'm not looking to make Christianity the official religion of America. I'm just saying we should be able to openly be Christians just like everyone else, especially since we are the majority. We shouldn't have to shut up just so everyone else can speak. We should all be able to converse freely. Let them keep talking, let them keep their rights, just give us ours TOO.

[jrmitch]

......because our culture certainly doesn't reflect it.

Think about it for a second: supposedly a vast majority of those in this country claim to be 'Christians'. So it makes sense that if that's true, then that should be reflected in all aspects of our culture. But.....

In a September 2001 poll done by U.S. News and World Report over 80% of those responding claimed to be Christians. Yet less than 20% of those same people believe that their so called Christian faith is the only true religion. Now, what did Jesus tell us? "I am the way, the truth and the life.......no one can come to the father but through me...." Jesus said there is no other way; yet only one in four so called Christians responding to that poll believed that to be true.

Okay, so that's only one poll. But if you take a good hard look at our society what evidence do you see that the majority of this country is Christian? C'mon, think about it: if the majority of this country were commited believers whose lives have been transformed by Jesus it would be reflected in every aspect of our society. We'd see the evidence in our schools; in our entertainment; in our political choices and the things that we support with our time, our talent, and our resources. There would be overwhelming evidence of the Lordship of Jesus in all aspects of our culture just as there was in the early Christian church, which had even unbelievers finding nothing threatening in their conduct or beliefs; in fact, Acts tells us that the Church had the "favor of all the people".

So, where's that evidence today? I certainly don't see it here in Colorado; many others also don't see it in their part of the country. And dude, if the majority of those around you in your community are living stones that reflect the Lordship of Jesus in your community then consider yourself extremely blessed, because it sure ain't happening anywhere else.

My pastor has a saying I love: claiming you're a Christian just because you go to church and believe in God is the same as going to McDonalds and claiming to be a cheeseburger just because you drink milk and they both come from a cow. You can't be a Christian in name only - the proof is in your conduct and how it affects those around you. And if the evidence around us is the only guage of what it's like to be a Christian then I'll just go back to being a heathen again; I had more fun and more hope.

Yeah, I know what the constitution says, and I hear your point that we should be given a fair stage to share with the rest of the world. But we won't; human nature will not allow us to do so. It is opposed to the things of God; has always been opposed to the things of God, and will continue to be opposed to the things of God until Jesus comes back. To expect it to be any other way is a scriptural impossiblity, no matter what the constitution says.

[musicjaytee]

To jrmitch; I must say that I honestly agree with everything you said. No doubt about it (especially the cheeseburger quote). It's just frustrating is all. Oh well, so goes the life of following Christ :rolleyes:

[bholdj]

It is simply a recognition of the truth that we are denied the right to express our faith just as freely as everyone else is.

Huh?

1.CCM is a beacon of christian faith expression through music.
2.Relevant magazine is the "rollin stone" of magazines.
3.www.thirdday.com would be illegal in China
4.As of last Sunday, to my knowledge church services across the country went uninterupted by gun fire (Christians in israel ring a bell?)
5. For goodness sakes, the freaking president has more than proclaimed the God he belives in.
6. Charlie Brown Christmas special comes on evrey year on cbs. You really think that would fly in say... russia? China?
7. Watch local T.V in Europe, as a Christian i coudn't stand the idea of evrey other channel devoted to porn.
8. Hello, Lord of the Rings? Lion, wicth, wardrobe? Passion of the Christ? All arguably for two of those, very Christian movies?




Again, Jesus saw all of what u stated coming. Are you really that shocked??

Sola Christos

John

[musicjaytee]

Yeah dude, missed my point. I stated before that I do not compare social persecution to martyrdom. But thanks for showing the love of Christ in your insults.

[bholdj]

Yeah dude, missed my point. I stated before that I do not compare social persecution to martyrdom. But thanks for showing the love of Christ in your insults.

I did delete a few things I should not have said. I do however feel that the whole "victim" mentality is very childish. American Christians are extremly blessed, your post just set off a firestorm of emotions that i feel that american christians really don't know how good we have it here.

All the emotion however, came off as insulting to you, it was not my intention for it to do so. I apologize. Peace in Christ :D

John

[musicjaytee]

Admittedly so, American Christians do have it MUCH better than pretty much anywhere else in the world (except maybe parts of Ireland and Austria. what wonderful examples of God's creation and people). My college is UCC affiliate and my church is UCC (but evangelical reformed in roots), so lately I've had political correctness shoved down my throat constantly, many times by *self-claimed* Christians. We're the kind of school that boasts the anti-Alito posters about strip-searching little girls, a 30' rainbow flag for pride week and a Muslim footbath in the chapel (that was used for an 'erotic' human auction). It's just a touchy subject because of my personal experiences in my own situation. I apologize for my own strong words. Loving God is enough for me, but a little less supression would be nice. :D

[bholdj]

Loving God is enough for me, but a little less supression would be nice. :D

woudn't it though???!!! I can't wait till heaven, I can walk anywere and evreybody can talk about anything and not have to worry about the aclu lol!

Have a good day dude.

John

[musicjaytee]

woudn't it though???!!! I can't wait till heaven, I can walk anywere and evreybody can talk about anything and not have to worry about the aclu lol!


LOL. AMEN!!!

[middletree]

Don't twist it around into bellyaching

I didn't twist anything. In my opinion, it's bellyaching.

And for the record, I had a hard time reading this post. Please consider breaking it up into smaller chunks. It's not your fault, just the way things read on the screen when they're all bunched up together like that.

[cheewiee]

Admittedly so, American Christians do have it MUCH better than pretty much anywhere else in the world (except maybe parts of Ireland and Austria. what wonderful examples of God's creation and people). My college is UCC affiliate and my church is UCC (but evangelical reformed in roots), so lately I've had political correctness shoved down my throat constantly, many times by *self-claimed* Christians. We're the kind of school that boasts the anti-Alito posters about strip-searching little girls, a 30' rainbow flag for pride week and a Muslim footbath in the chapel (that was used for an 'erotic' human auction). It's just a touchy subject because of my personal experiences in my own situation. I apologize for my own strong words. Loving God is enough for me, but a little less supression would be nice. :D
When you say UCC, do you mean United Church of Christ or United Church of Canada?

[jrmitch]

Musicjaytee and Bholdj:

Thanks for demonstrating how to cool down and deescalate an emotional issue. Well done! :D

[musicjaytee]

When you say UCC, do you mean United Church of Christ or United Church of Canada?

United Church of Christ

[cheewiee]

United Church of Christ
Obviously you feel the denomination is oppressive towards Christians of all people, so why are you still involved in the church (I understand the school)

[musicjaytee]

My church still holds on to many of its evangelical reformed traditions and mentalities. However, because I am technically associated with the UCC and my church bears the name, it is assumed that I follow the main social beliefs of the denomination. Plus, I'm a sunday school teacher so I miss a lot of the politics going on beyond the ones dealing with the kids.

[bholdj]

Musicjaytee and Bholdj:

Thanks for demonstrating how to cool down and deescalate an emotional issue. Well done! :D

all in it together right ? :D

Im sleepy, 2 days back in college and im ready for summer lol.

[kiwisongbird]

Matthew 5:10 - 12

Blessed are those who are presecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

:) :)