Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader

[Psalm25Gomer]

What do you think of Governer Schwarzenegger's ruling here?



http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html

[meak]

i agree with his ruling

[HotWireD]

We do not have the death penalty in the United kingdom, so I am not sure what I should say here.

Having read the news article you posted, it seems strange to me that this person's defence is that he only killed three of the four people he is accused of killing. Do you not have the death penalty for killing one person, let alone three or four?

I agree it is a hard decision for the governer to make - all life is sacred and having the rsponsibility for having someone executed must weigh heavy role on his mind. However, this person was sentenced to death long ago and it is a strange punishment to leave some one on 'death row' for such a long time.

So many people in the US are opposed to abortion on the grounds that life is sacred, yet support the death penalty. This confuses me.

NEWS ARTICLE QUOTE.
Earlier Sunday, attorney Verna Wefald said the legal team was asking for a stay on the basis that Williams should have been allowed to argue that someone else killed one of the four people he was convicted of slaying.

On Friday, the governor described his looming decision as "a very heavy responsibility."

Williams -- who would turn 52 on December 29 -- co-founded the Crips in Los Angeles and was convicted of killing four people in 1979, but has become an anti-gang crusader while on death row.

[ibanez_player]

So many people in the US are opposed to abortion on the grounds that life is sacred, yet support the death penalty. This confuses me.

these are totally different cases. abortion is murdering a helpless child who has done absolutely nothing wrong, and so is therefore innocent. the death penalty is for someone who conciously has commited awful crime(s).

[kh294God]

all i know is that i would hate to be the one that has to make the decision....because one hand we as Christians are supposed to believe that anyone can be forgiven of their sins by Jesus...even murders.....but then on the other hand...we as a society knows that a lot of death row inmates suddenly finds "religion"....I don't think i could make the decision.

[labrousse]

So many people in the US are opposed to abortion on the grounds that life is sacred, yet support the death penalty. This confuses me.

The thing that confuses me is the opposite: how one can be opposed to the death penalty, yet support abortion. As one of my English professors said, he cannot logically defend his position.

The pro-death penalty/anti-abortion view is not contradictory. Abortion is taking the life of the most defenseless among us: an innocent child whose only crime is to be unwanted. The death penalty is punishing those who have willfully committed the most heinous crimes we know of.

Just my .02

[HotWireD]

The thing that confuses me is the opposite: how one can be opposed to the death penalty, yet support abortion. As one of my English professors said, he cannot logically defend his position.

The pro-death penalty/anti-abortion view is not contradictory. Abortion is taking the life of the most defenseless among us: an innocent child whose only crime is to be unwanted. The death penalty is punishing those who have willfully committed the most heinous crimes we know of.

Just my .02

Thank you, you have answered my query about the perspective of abortion and execution.

I personally, am against abortion, but have never had to consider the death penalty.

I work in the Criminal Justice system catching criminals. The worse offences are when I investigate a child murder and then discover that the offender had actually killed a child before(or abducted and sexually assaulted a child), been to prison, been released, and gone out and done it again.

I understand that if the offender had been executed, there would not have been a second, third, etc victim.

Having thought about that I then consider 'we just lock them up forever', but that in itself is a cruel punishment - no chance of ever getting out again - so why waste money keeping the person in prison if they are going to die in prison, is that not the death penalty?

My mind goes round and round in circles...

Cheers for the reply

[Psalm25Gomer]

.....but not before problems arose.


Here's the link.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution/index.html

[kh294God]

so why waste money keeping the person in prison if they are going to die in prison, is that not the death penalty?

did you know that it cost less to house them in prison than to kill them? I have done the research cause I thought the same way. I am, also, in the Criminal Justice field. Well, actually I am 4 months away from graduating with a degree in Criminal Justice. I don't support the death penalty. I would rather see them stay in prison. The reason I think that way because they still have a chance (slim as it be) of truly finding the Lord and being saved. While if they are executed they lose that chance. I know some people will say "Well they had their chance before they committed their crime". As that maybe true in same causes, in other causes the criminal may have never heard the word of God in their homes, from their friends, or whatever. Sometimes the first time a criminal hears anything about God is from the prison chaplin. So should it be up to us to decide when is the last chance a person should be able to hear the word of God or should it be up to God?
Just my opinion.

[wbthornton]

did you know that it cost less to house them in prison than to kill them? I have done the research cause I thought the same way.
Not trying to be argumentative here, but I seriously doubt this statement. I'm not sure the breakdown in cost of what it costs to house a single inmate, but I assume that it's quite expensive. I think ministries like Prison Fellowship would have those sort of numbers. I guess an execution would be expensive as well, but it's a one time event.

[middletree]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I seriously doubt this statement.

Actually, I have read this several times. I'm pretty sure it's correct, although I have no links to back it up.

And for the record, even if it were incorrect, and it would save money to execute people, I question the heart of someone who would use that as a reason to support putting them to death.

[kh294God]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I seriously doubt this statement. I'm not sure the breakdown in cost of what it costs to house a single inmate, but I assume that it's quite expensive. I think ministries like Prison Fellowship would have those sort of numbers. I guess an execution would be expensive as well, but it's a one time event.
i won't argue....but i have seen the numbers....unless you actually see the numbers it's hard to believe....i believed the same way , too....give me a couple of days....and I'll get the numbers to show you....

[wbthornton]

Actually, I have read this several times. I'm pretty sure it's correct, although I have no links to back it up.I've never read that before, James.

And for the record, even if it were incorrect, and it would save money to execute people, I question the heart of someone who would use that as a reason to support putting them to death.While I am pro death penalty, that is not my reason for supporting it.

[wbthornton]

i won't argue....but i have seen the numbers....unless you actually see the numbers it's hard to believe....i believed the same way , too....give me a couple of days....and I'll get the numbers to show you....
Thank you. I would be happy to take a look and will change my opinion if I'm wrong. ;)

*Note to all*: For the record, I'm strictly talking about cost and not the reasoning for or against the death penalty. I don't want the two to be confused. And I'm not interested in debating why I support the death penalty.

[HotWireD]

did you know that it cost less to house them in prison than to kill them? I have done the research cause I thought the same way. I am, also, in the Criminal Justice field. Well, actually I am 4 months away from graduating with a degree in Criminal Justice. I don't support the death penalty. I would rather see them stay in prison. The reason I think that way because they still have a chance (slim as it be) of truly finding the Lord and being saved. While if they are executed they lose that chance. I know some people will say "Well they had their chance before they committed their crime". As that maybe true in same causes, in other causes the criminal may have never heard the word of God in their homes, from their friends, or whatever. Sometimes the first time a criminal hears anything about God is from the prison chaplin. So should it be up to us to decide when is the last chance a person should be able to hear the word of God or should it be up to God?
Just my opinion.

Good comment. i was just voicing different thoughts that come into my head. By the way, I read a comment a few days ago (it was about a judge who made two young people haul an *** (donkey) through their town after they defaced a statue in a church with '666'. He said that it is cheaper to humilate them this way than spend $45 a day to keep them in jail. Here in the UK, politicians are always complaining about how much it costs to keep a person in jail - I am sure I have heard the amount of £2000 - £3000 a week quoted. This appears (to me) to be a bit high. A really good hotel does not cost that amount!

Personally, I investigated a crime about 12 years ago where a man was found guilty of killing his neighbour. He was mentally below average and all the evidence pointed at him, although it was circumstantial, there was alot of it.

Six years later, at a retrial, he was found not guilty and released. If he had been executed quickly, (if we had the death penalty) then there would have been no reprieve (then again, there would have been no appeal). As it is, whoever did commit the crime got away with it because, after all that time, there was not much chance of catching the real perpetrator.

All in all, I find it difficult to think that the death penalty can be justified in all cases of murder, then again, I am sure that the courts in the US take into account all the circumstances of the offence and the background of the offender before deciding on the death penalty or life in prison.

In the UK, 'Life' hardly ever means 'Life' anyway.

What does amaze me, in the 23 years I have been detecting crime, is that injuries that used to lead to the death of the victim (and therefore life to the offender) are now, with the improvement of medical science, minor injuries (and therefore sometimes not even a custodial sentence). I had a young lad who I went to photograph his stab wound in his abdomen, it was 3 inches wide!, after I had took the picture, he said "don't you want to look at the other wound?". The knife that had stabbed him had gone right through his body! The exit wound was two inches wide!

Ten/twenty years ago he would have been dead. Today, he walks out of hospital less than a week later.

[kh294God]

Posted on Tue, Dec. 06, 2005
Death penalty costly
By Mary E. Forsberg
Philadelphia Inquirer
First, let's assume that New Jersey abolishes the death penalty today. No new inmates are added to death row, and each of the 10 men there now - ages 28 to 75 - is resentenced to life in prison without parole.

By the time the last of the current death-row inmates dies of natural causes, New Jersey taxpayers will have spent $15.1 million to house these men in a maximum-security prison.

But if New Jersey continues the current system, with prosecutors continuing to seek the death penalty and inmates added to death row, the cost could reach $845 million during the same period.

this one example i'll find later

[HotWireD]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution/index.html

News article on internet: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 Posted: 1348 GMT (2148 HKT)

[kh294God]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution/index.html

News article on internet: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 Posted: 1348 GMT (2148 HKT)
yes i know he was executed....i'd hate to be in the governor's shoes when he had to play "GOD" in deciding whether or not this man found Jesus and turned his life around...I am not saying that he did or he didn't is just that I don't think that no man on earth has the right....to decide if this person lives or dies....JMO

[wbthornton]

First, let's assume that New Jersey abolishes the death penalty today. No new inmates are added to death row, and each of the 10 men there now - ages 28 to 75 - is resentenced to life in prison without parole.

By the time the last of the current death-row inmates dies of natural causes, New Jersey taxpayers will have spent $15.1 million to house these men in a maximum-security prison.

But if New Jersey continues the current system, with prosecutors continuing to seek the death penalty and inmates added to death row, the cost could reach $845 million during the same period.
Please understand that I'm not impugning you in way. I'm simply asking the question, where did these statistics come from? I don't, typically, believe statistics given by reporters, especially those that aren't sourced. I understand that the person on the other end, no matter their viewpoint, has an agenda. $15.1 million sounds very low to me, to house all the deathrow inmates in New Jersey for the rest of their lives. Are these numbers taking into account all the costs associated with incarcerating a prisoner?

I have no idea how many men and women are on death row in New Jersey. Nor do I have any idea what the cost of an actual execution may be. But $845 million seems steep to me.

Again, I'm not arguing with your viewpoint, I'm just doubting the numbers.

[kh294God]

He was mentally below average
In the UK, 'Life' hardly ever means 'Life' anyway.

if i am not mistaken it's unconstitutional in the US to execute someone that's mentally retarded....in the great state of Louisiana LIFE means LIFE

[kh294God]

I have no idea how many men and women are on death row in New Jersey. Nor do I have any idea what the cost of an actual execution may be. But $845 million seems steep to me.

i am still looking for the EXACT cost of ONE execution....it'd be hard to find...because they include the cost of the trial, lawyers. appeals (20yrs worth in some cases) and the actual execution....the 15.1 million....also includes the trial, lawyers minus the appeals and execution....845 mill is higher because you get lawyers that want to make a name for themselves and they take the case as the taxpayers cost they don't care about whether their client is guilty or not....they don't care that their appeals is costing the taxpayers more money than they need to pay....

[kh294God]

A Duke University study found... "The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life." ( The costs of processing murder cases in North Carolina / Philip J. Cook, Donna B. Slawson ; with the assistance of Lori A. Gries. [Durham, NC] : Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy, Duke University, 1993.)

"The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level." (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988).

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution."
(Miami Herald, July 10, 1988).

"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)

Figures from the General Accounting Office are close to these results. Total annual costs for all U.S. Prisons, State and Federal, was $17.7 billion in 1994 along with a total prison population of 1.1 million inmates. That amounts to $16100 per inmate/year.

[kh294God]

Again, I'm not arguing with your viewpoint, I'm just doubting the numbers.
go to www.1000executions.org and click on the article 1000 executions at what cost

[wbthornton]

i am still looking for the EXACT cost of ONE execution....it'd be hard to find...because they include the cost of the trial, lawyers. appeals (20yrs worth in some cases) and the actual execution....the 15.1 million....also includes the trial, lawyers minus the appeals and execution....845 mill is higher because you get lawyers that want to make a name for themselves and they take the case as the taxpayers cost they don't care about whether their client is guilty or not....they don't care that their appeals is costing the taxpayers more money than they need to pay....
I'm guessing, that a lot of different dollar figures can be found, but they all probably take different things into account. In other words, each set would be like comparing apples to oranges. I know that it's beneficial to know the actual cost, the costs of the entire process gives us a more acurate picture. But like in the case of figuring the costs of incarceration, just what do include? Do we include the costs of new prisons and expansions of existing ones? I don't know myself. Maybe an accurate cost isn't at all possible.

[kh294God]

when you consider everything that's involved (not inlcluding new prisons and whatever) life in prison is cheaper

[Gandalf]

I think the financial cost is quite irrelevant when deciding whether to use capital punishment... but, I'm fairly sure that those elevated death penalty costs include the cost of prosecutors dealing with the ridiculously drawn out appeals process, etc. (I'm not opposed to an appellate process - it's necessary and just - but, there's no reason it should take 26 years)

[kh294God]

I think the financial cost is quite irrelevant when deciding whether to use capital punishment... but, I'm fairly sure that those elevated death penalty costs include the cost of prosecutors dealing with the ridiculously drawn out appeals process, etc. (I'm not opposed to an appellate process - it's necessary and just - but, there's no reason it should take 26 years) you're right it shouldn't take 26 years....i mean how many times do you need to to hear the word "no" (feels like i am talking to my son) ;)
And it's not the only reason i feel the death penalty is wrong.....i have other issues with it....

[middletree]

I agree that it shouldn't take multiple appeals and 26 years, but on the other hand, read a story like this and you'll see that a jury can convict someone and send them to the Chair when they didn't do anything wrong.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/

[Pouye]

when you consider everything that's involved (not inlcluding new prisons and whatever) life in prison is cheaper

Why not include the cost of new prisons?

Also, I think they should privatize executions. Bob's Discount Executions would do it for less... ;)

Rock

[kh294God]

I agree that it shouldn't take multiple appeals and 26 years, but on the other hand, read a story like this and you'll see that a jury can convict someone and send them to the Chair when they didn't do anything wrong.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/
i have read numerous stories like that an ex-warden David Cabana (i think that's how you spell his name) wrote a book about executing a man that he had no doubt didn't deserve to die....i don't think under any (i mean any) circumstances should a human being decide if another human being should die.

[kh294God]

Also, I think they should privatize executions. Bob's Discount Executions would do it for less... ;)

what would that accomplish?

[Pouye]

what would that accomplish?

Cheaper executions?
:eek:

Rock

[kh294God]

Cheaper executions?
:eek:

Rock
why execute? what would that accomplish (that's what I mean)truthfully what would it accomplish?

[Pouye]

why execute? what would that accomplish (that's what I mean)truthfully what would it accomplish?

No chance of escaping and re-offending.

Rock

[Gandalf]

That, and justice:
Rom 13:3-4 NKJV
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

[Pouye]

That, and justice:

Oh... and that too.

Victims are rarely brought up. They deserved to live, too -- but instead someone took their life. God instituted the death penalty in the Old Testament, so it is not an inherently flawed concept. There was a time in history when God saw that it was just for people to be killed for murder.

To say that God no longer sees this as just (which is stretching it) is irrelevent when it comes to a nation carrying out capital punishment. Nobody will ever die and be able to say to God, "If you just would have gave me a little more time I would have come to you".

Rock

[DareDevil]

I'm not really concerned for those who have to face the death penalty for a crime they really committed, but what about those who are actually innocent? I mean, let's face it. Mistakes DO happen indeed and it is kind of hard to undo the death penalty...

[kh294God]

I'm not really concerned for those who have to face the death penalty for a crime they really committed, but what about those who are actually innocent? I mean, let's face it. Mistakes DO happen indeed and it is kind of hard to undo the death penalty...
see that's my point...if you did the crime then you must be punished...i just don't like the fact that we have a system that tends to ignore tampered evidence, tampered juries, crooked cops, or anything else that might send an innocent person to their death....it's possible that there's more innocent people on death row than you think

[wbthornton]

Why not include the cost of new prisons?

Also, I think they should privatize executions. Bob's Discount Executions would do it for less... ;)

RockLet me add something to this. Privatization is not a bad thing. Now, I'm not talking about executions, because I know Rock is saying this with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek.

A recent issue in Kentucky regarded a state prison that was built in the eastern part of the state. The governor wanted to bid the prison out of private companies to run. But the county officials where the prison was located threw a fit. They wanted the prison to remain in state hands for one reason, and one reason only: state jobs. The state workers would have a much higher wage scale, unbelievable benefits and basically, near guaranteed lifetime employment. It would cost the taxpayers of the state much less money if it were privatized, but no, we can't have that.

I know this is a completely different topic, but already, more than 1/3 of the citizens of this country work for government or a government entity. My wife does.....she's a public school teacher. But gevernments are not producers.....they depend on tax dollars for their very existence. So, it's no wonder the residents of this particular county want the prison to remain in state hands.

[ICarlson99]

The cost-benefit analysis is a little tricky when this should really be a moral issue.

The most important aspect is whether or not justice is done. Not deterrent, not revenge, probably not cost (although I acknowledge there is a practical component to cost that is not irrelevant).

What societal justice is there when a murderer gets to keep their own life? Now, you can argue that there are inequalities which prevent us from being able to know "truth" - which is why I only favor the death penalty for certain convicted murderers, not all of them. I think the standard must be quite high, in both the heinousness and far beyond a reasonable doubt.

There are certain acts committed by man that are so grievous, only the taking of their life allows justice to be done. To NOT do so cheapens the life of the murdered.

[ICarlson99]

Let me add something to this. Privatization is not a bad thing. Now, I'm not talking about executions, because I know Rock is saying this with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek.

A recent issue in Kentucky regarded a state prison that was built in the eastern part of the state. The governor wanted to bid the prison out of private companies to run. But the county officials where the prison was located threw a fit. They wanted the prison to remain in state hands for one reason, and one reason only: state jobs. The state workers would have a much higher wage scale, unbelievable benefits and basically, near guaranteed lifetime employment. It would cost the taxpayers of the state much less money if it were privatized, but no, we can't have that.

I know this is a completely different topic, but already, more than 1/3 of the citizens of this country work for government or a government entity. My wife does.....she's a public school teacher. But gevernments are not producers.....they depend on tax dollars for their very existence. So, it's no wonder the residents of this particular county want the prison to remain in state hands.

I've actually thought about this over the last couple of years - and I think prisons should be turned into for-profit businesses. The inmates can learn skills and trades that allow them to be productive members upon their release, and it would offset the cost of imprisoning them. For crimes other than murder and possibly rape, I think the prison should be used, as much as possible, as a place where inmates develop the abilities to function back in greater society. To take people out of society (justifiably so) for crimes, but then assume they'll be able to pick up where they left off is unrealistic. I think your idea of privatization would ease budgets and lower recidivism rates - a win-win seems to me.

[wbthornton]

There are certain acts committed by man that are so grievous, only the taking of their life allows justice to be done. To NOT do so cheapens the life of the murdered.
I agree completely. Even in the old testament law, there were crimes that were worthy of capital punishment.

[ICarlson99]

Genesis 9:6 says capital punishment was REQUIRED by God BECAUSE man was made in His image.

And yes, I understand the distinction between the Old/New Testament, but it cannot be denied that capital punishment was commanded by God. Therefore, capital punishment in and of itself cannot be immoral. Arguments against it are certainly possible on other grounds (cost, deterrent, etc) - I just don't find them convincing. Justice should be the first and foremost priority in determining whether or not capital punishment is, well, just.

[wbthornton]

I've actually thought about this over the last couple of years - and I think prisons should be turned into for-profit businesses. The inmates can learn skills and trades that allow them to be productive members upon their release, and it would offset the cost of imprisoning them. For crimes other than murder and possibly rape, I think the prison should be used, as much as possible, as a place where inmates develop the abilities to function back in greater society. To take people out of society (justifiably so) for crimes, but then assume they'll be able to pick up where they left off is unrealistic. I think your idea of privatization would ease budgets and lower recidivism rates - a win-win seems to me.
Again......I absolutely agree.

I know the men and women inmates can choose to work, but the wages are extremely low. Because of this, the prisons that have industry that actually manufacturers goods and services can sell their products for less than the going market rate. I've read of some entities that will not buy from prison industries because it undercuts other manufacturers. I wish I could remember some actual examples but I'm pulling this one out of my memory.

[ICarlson99]

Again......I absolutely agree.

I know the men and women inmates can choose to work, but the wages are extremely low. Because of this, the prisons that have industry that actually manufacturers goods and services can sell their products for less than the going market rate. I've read of some entities that will not buy from prison industries because it undercuts other manufacturers. I wish I could remember some actual examples but I'm pulling this one out of my memory.

Good point about market rates. I wouldn't allow the prisoners to be paid, they'd be in effect, paying off their debts as part of their sentence. How to make it a fair part of a market system would be the trick. Perhaps have them produce something that only the government supplies. Like......license plates :D

[Pouye]

I'm not really concerned for those who have to face the death penalty for a crime they really committed, but what about those who are actually innocent? I mean, let's face it. Mistakes DO happen indeed and it is kind of hard to undo the death penalty...

You have a point...

I sort of like the idea of freezing people in carbonite, myself. I guess you could undo that if necessary.

Rock

[Pouye]

Again......I absolutely agree.

I know the men and women inmates can choose to work, but the wages are extremely low. Because of this, the prisons that have industry that actually manufacturers goods and services can sell their products for less than the going market rate. I've read of some entities that will not buy from prison industries because it undercuts other manufacturers. I wish I could remember some actual examples but I'm pulling this one out of my memory.

I agree, too. Actually, I only think dangerous criminals should be seperated from society. Tax evaders and the like should just be house arrested (just so they don't run away) and sent to factories to work off their debt to society.

Rock