What do you all think about... [Archive] - ThirdDay.com Message Boards

Stiffro

12-03-2005, 12:59 AM

Joel Osteen?

It seems this guy is all over the place nowadays. I see him on several different TV channels all throughout the week. Ive watched his messages a few times and he seems like a nice enough guy. But, his messages seem to be based around a God that wants to grant us Earthly wishes i.e. giving us a promotion, letting us get a good parking spot, or being upgraded to first class. I can see why he appeals to the masses of people who are or may not be Christians because he doesnt talk about the hard times of being a Christian, the struggle against a secular world, or the self sacrifice of being a Christian.

If anyone has seen him and wants to comment then I'd like to know what other people think about him and how he compares to other preachers of our time (Billy Graham, Adrian Rogers, David Jeremiah, etc.).

prayercloth sis

12-08-2005, 11:25 PM

TOOO Young...like silver in the hair of my ministers..means wisdom...

;)

Thirddaysweetie

12-08-2005, 11:31 PM

SmileyFreak1981

12-09-2005, 12:58 AM

I'm not impressed with Joel Osteen.

(Emphasis in proceding passage is mine.)
KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.

OSTEEN: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but I don't ever do anything ...

KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?

OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...

KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?

OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.
That's pretty wishy-washy if you ask me.

He's a great motivational speaker, but he's no Billy Graham.

My opinion, tho. :) The whole transcript can be read here. (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/20/lkl.01.html)

super

12-09-2005, 01:02 AM

ive never herd of him

chicken

12-09-2005, 06:07 PM

SmileyFreak1981 nailed it. On the few occasions I watched him preach on TV, I wasn't too crazy about his "everything is roses" message, then I saw his Larry King interview. He acted like he wasn't exactly sure how anyone got to heaven and was just so "Aw shucks!" about it.

middletree

12-09-2005, 06:36 PM

I can't say I've ever heard Osteen say anything doctrinally unsound. But something about him rubs me the wrong way.

I also have a preference of being in a church small enough that you can still know the pastor persoinally. But that's just me.

middletree

12-09-2005, 06:37 PM

Joel Osteen?

BTW, this is just a peeve of mine, but please try to put something in your subject line that tells us what the thread is about. I'll bet a lot of people are going to never read this thread and offer their thoughts because of your vague subject/title.

rossid

12-09-2005, 06:40 PM

middletree

12-10-2005, 05:40 PM

He really said that? I've always been just dumbfounded when I watch his sermons and can't hear the gospel. Why is he even on TBN if he doesn't preach salvation? I only use TBN as an example because that is the station he shows up on. Please do not use this thread as an opportunity to bash TBN. He reminds me of our former pastor, his looks anyway.
I'll take any and all opportunities to bash TBN.

But to answer your question, I don't think every sermon needs to include a Gospel presentation. People who already saved need to hear good teaching to helpthem grow. Two caveats:

1. If a preacher goes several years without mentioning the Gospel once, then there's a problem.

2. I am in no way defending Osteen.

GuitarMan2387

12-10-2005, 06:01 PM

I think he is just saying that he can't judge another persons soul, its up to God.

I don't see anythign wrong with that.

SmileyFreak1981

12-10-2005, 06:57 PM

I think he is just saying that he can't judge another persons soul, its up to God.

I don't see anythign wrong with that.
There isn't anything wrong with that. I agree with that idea. In fact, I can agree with what Osteen says, to a point.

However, my interpretation of what he said is maybe a little different. The way he phrased it seemed very relativistic to me. As in, "Jesus is my choice, but you can choose to love/worship God/your gods in the way that you want. Who am I to say that it's wrong?"

Maybe I'm reading more into it, maybe Osteen was trying to be PC since he was on CNN. I don't know.

But I do know that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." He wasn't a spoke on the wheel of God, He was the wheel. He is the only way. So to me, to say that you don't know if someone who doesn't believe in Christ will go to heaven shows an ignorance of scripture. Because Jesus said that He was the only way to get there. Osteen seemed afraid to speak the truth.

Again, my opinion. :)

mercyGurl

12-10-2005, 09:46 PM

I'll take any and all opportunities to bash TBN.

But to answer your question, I don't think every sermon needs to include a Gospel presentation. People who already saved need to hear good teaching to helpthem grow. Two caveats:

1. If a preacher goes several years without mentioning the Gospel once, then there's a problem.

2. I am in no way defending Osteen.

I agree with that.

I cannot stand Joel Osteen. I believe that he doesn't care about the Gospel. I don't believe he truly cares about bringing people closer to God, just to a "happier, more fulfilled" life. He is leading a whole generation of people to a faith that says "if something bad happens, either God doesn't love you or you are a bad person, because only good things happen to Christians". I have had too many of my friends get messed up by that philosophy to just be ok with it.

Jason

12-10-2005, 10:25 PM

leading a whole generation of people to a faith that says "if something bad happens, either God doesn't love you or you are a bad person, because only good things happen to Christians". I have had too many of my friends get messed up by that philosophy to just be ok with it.

I must be a bad person, Joel.

ReinaMissy

12-11-2005, 12:16 AM

He rubs me the wrong way, too, but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to claim that he must attend seminary.

After all, Peter didn't attend seminary, but it was okay with Jesus :p

prayercloth sis

12-12-2005, 01:56 PM

mercyGurl

12-12-2005, 02:19 PM

I believe Bro. Olsteen is very young and doing his best...not to say that I agree with all he has preached or said....because I do not.

Along with wisdom, and knowledge..you have to live through some things..he is very young in the Lord..as far a experience goes...he's starting to get some...

to compare him to a veteran minister..is unfair...we all have to start somewhere...and we all have to grow...and we all grow at diiferent rates of speed in our spiritual walk...

preacher bashing...doesn't impress anyone...especially God

so I will say this... if we prayed for folks as much as we "discuss" about them...how wonderful it would be?????

God Bless

Rhonie

Just curious--do you really think he's just young and doesn't know what he's doing and that's why he preaches what he does? Watch him on TV--he is very, very calculating, and you know that he knows exactly what he is doing. Yes, he may be young, but he also knows that this no-Jesus "gospel" he is preaching is bringing in money, fame, and parishoners. He knows that his "motivational speaking" preaching brings people in. When asked by MSNBC why people liked him he said this:

Osteen: Maybe it's the fact that I'm younger, I'm not beating people over the head, and that I'm saying that there are good things in store — you can make it in life. Most of the stuff that I minister [is] not real complicated deep things.

Staying drinking milk much, Mr. Osteen?

Rhonie, I do pray for Joel Osteen. I pray that God will change his heart and he will turn from his misleading ways. I pray for all those people at the Lakewood Church, that those who are deceived about Jesus and Christianity would see the light and when they fall that God would catch them and not let them turn away.

But there is nothing wrong with trying to tell people about how wrong the man is while he is still wrong.
-Sarah

ReinaMissy

12-12-2005, 02:48 PM

But mercy, you don't explain why you find him misleading.

Good things ARE in store for us; that is verified by the Gospel.

I've seen many pastors who are praised on this board who are very, very calculating.

cheewiee

12-12-2005, 06:52 PM

Joel Osteen...

Before I go in much depth about the Man, Let me say this, He has issued an apology about his comments on Larry King, and you should be able to find them if you google "Joel Osteen" "Larry King" "Apology" together.

And before I do Continue, let me say this, the week before his apperance on LKL Billy Graham essentialy said the same thing...

What we see of Joel Osteen is typical of Television Ministry. We see a Pastors Sermon cut down into a 30 minuite time frame, in an evangelical outreach to unbelievers. Is it effective? I don't know It is very difficult for us as outsiders to see the fruit of a Television Ministry.

But I do see a church of almost 50,000 believers who in the wake of Hurricane Katrina opened their hearts to the unfortionate people uncerimoniously dumped into an unprepaired city.

So what I see is a Pastor who SERIOUSLY misspoke on national television issue an apology in response to critics who rightfully demanded that he clarify his position on salvation. What is that? Humity...

As far as his general Message, "God Wants the Best for Us." As a believer and a son of God, I don't doubt that message one bit. Is it preached to an extreme? Sure but Fluffy preaching isn't new, and a topic just on that subject would be better than talking about it here

Also, I will say this,

He is leading a whole generation of people to a faith that says "if something bad happens, either God doesn't love you or you are a bad person, because only good things happen to Christians".

Your really going to need to back that up with a source, because I have never heart this guy say such a thing, or MANY CRITICS of WOFers in General INCLUDING OLE ANTHONY say he said such a thing!

cheewiee

12-12-2005, 07:17 PM

I wanted to back up what I said about Billy Graham's comments the week before.

KING: But what about those faiths -- the Mormons and the others that you mentioned -- believe in Christ. They believe they will meet Christ. What about those like the Jews, the Muslims, who don't believe they ...
GRAHAM: That's in God's hands. I can't be the judge.

KING: You don't judge them?

GRAHAM: No.

KING: How do you feel...

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: ... going to hell and all that.

KING: How do you feel when you see a lot of these strong Christian leaders go on television and say, you are condemned, you will live in hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ, and they are forceful and judgmental?

GRAHAM: Well, they have a right to say that, and they are true to a certain extent, but I don't -- that's not my calling. My calling is to preach the love of God and the forgiveness of God and the fact that he does forgive us. That's what the cross is all about, what the resurrection is all about, that's the gospel. And you can get off on all kinds of different side trends, and in my earlier ministry, I did the same, but as I got older, I guess I became more mellow and more forgiving and more loving. And the Jerry Falwells and people like that, I love them, I thank God for their ministry, he has a great university and two or three of my grandchildren have gone there, they have had a tremendous change in their lives for being there, and some of the other people are the same way, but at the other end of the extreme.

Found Here http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/26/lkl.01.html

As you see Osteen's words merely echo the words of 'The Great Evangelist'. While I love Billy Graham, and he is one of my favorite ministers of the 20th Century, his words to represented a very weak presentation of the Gospel...

TLJ

12-12-2005, 10:57 PM

I can only comment from the one time I watched him on television one morning. His sermon was about how to change negative habits & get more organized in your daily life. It was nice & feel good & generic with not much scripture. That may appeal to some people, but I personally like a lot of scriptural references. On the other hand, I think there is a forum for what he does. Perhaps he is reaching people who might not otherwise give a "preachy" preacher a chance. God brings you in & then he grows you up in His word.

mercyGurl

12-13-2005, 12:55 AM

Also, I will say this,
[quoted me]

Your really going to need to back that up with a source, because I have never heart this guy say such a thing, or MANY CRITICS of WOFers in General INCLUDING OLE ANTHONY say he said such a thing!

If you look closely I never said that he claimed that, I said that the faith he preached said that.

Frankly nothing I say will change your mind if you believe nothing is wrong with what he says.

I guess one of the main reasons I view Joel Osteen as such a big issue is because he is accepted generally by the public as a great Christian leader and this great man who has such strong and amazing faith, while obviously he is ok with leading these people into a weak faith. Most WOF preachers aren't generally accepted by the public.

And cheewiee, you forgot to show further down on that transcript:

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: ... going to hell and all that.

KING: How do you feel when you see a lot of these strong Christian leaders go on television and say, you are condemned, you will live in hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ, and they are forceful and judgmental?

GRAHAM: Well, they have a right to say that, and they are true to a certain extent, but I don't -- that's not my calling. My calling is to preach the love of God and the forgiveness of God and the fact that he does forgive us. That's what the cross is all about, what the resurrection is all about, that's the gospel. And you can get off on all kinds of different side trends, and in my earlier ministry, I did the same, but as I got older, I guess I became more mellow and more forgiving and more loving. And the Jerry Falwells and people like that, I love them, I thank God for their ministry, he has a great university and two or three of my grandchildren have gone there, they have had a tremendous change in their lives for being there, and some of the other people are the same way, but at the other end of the extreme.

Ron (INAUDIBLE) here in New York years ago, preached against me, or spoke against me. I loved him with all my heard. I went to see him, and all these people.

KING: We'll be back with the extraordinary Reverend Billy Graham right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM: But Jesus made this astounding claim. Jesus said: I am the truth. Jesus said, I am the truth! I am the embodiment of all truth. And if you're going to get to heaven, you've got to believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

I have very strong feelings about many things. I have a very strong intuition--first of all naturally(the woman's intuition), and secondly I have a very strong spiritual intuition. I know other people who do too, but I have a very sharp trigger in terms of if something bad is going to happen. Like the day my car broke down was the day I was running late and walked out the door with my cell phone, knowing that something was going to happen and I was going to need it.

Sometimes, I'll see things and watch things and be perfectly fine with it. Other times I get HUGE red flags in my heart. Before I ever really knew what Joel Osteen was about, I used to watch Lakewood services on TV. We sing Lakewood songs at our church so I figured it'd be something interesting to watch. And even then I got this feeling that something was really wrong with him, and it made me very, very uncomfortable.

I never could or can watch him. I'll start to watch him on TV now, to be like "This is why his sermons are weak" and I just can't. I have to change the channel.

And so that's probably why I can't just leave it alone. I can't just say "whatever, he's just somewhat ineffective, it's ok, he has a niche market". There's no way I can feel this way and leave it alone.
-Sarah

Pouye

12-13-2005, 02:02 AM

He rubs me the wrong way, too, but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to claim that he must attend seminary.

After all, Peter didn't attend seminary, but it was okay with Jesus :p

Ok, let Joel spend three years personally with Christ incarnate (like Peter did), and I might let him slide... ;)

Rock

prayercloth sis

12-13-2005, 02:12 AM

Just curious--do you really think he's just young and doesn't know what he's doing and that's why he preaches what he does? Watch him on TV--he is very, very calculating, and you know that he knows exactly what he is doing. Yes, he may be young, but he also knows that this no-Jesus "gospel" he is preaching is bringing in money, fame, and parishoners. He knows that his "motivational speaking" preaching brings people in. When asked by MSNBC why people liked him he said this:

Staying drinking milk much, Mr. Osteen?

Rhonie, I do pray for Joel Osteen. I pray that God will change his heart and he will turn from his misleading ways. I pray for all those people at the Lakewood Church, that those who are deceived about Jesus and Christianity would see the light and when they fall that God would catch them and not let them turn away.

But there is nothing wrong with trying to tell people about how wrong the man is while he is still wrong.
-Sarah

I haven't spent alot of time listening to him or reading his books... but to put him down and talk ill of him and not know him personally...I just can't get on that train...maybe he is doing wrong maybe not...maybe he's doesn't have wise godly counsel maybe he doesn't take it into consideration...I do not know..I just find that several folks love to bash preachers instead of praying for them...if he is preaching Jesus...then....I put him in the hands of a just God...

just for the record what specifically do you disagree with him on???

not trying to argue..just to understand your viewpoint...please...

I personally tend to listen to elders that have had years of experience and have been living for God a long time...hoping I will learn from them ...

Sarah..please do not think I am showing you any disrespect...just haven't heard of him doing something really bad wrong...

Rhonie

ReinaMissy

12-13-2005, 02:13 AM

I'm not defending him out of hand, Pouye. Frankly, I find it extremely odd in this day and age that a leader of a church that size would have not attended seminary.

One thing to add to the whole issue, as a student currently in seminary, is that training in Biblical exegesis and field education in parish ministry is only part of the seminary experience. It is meant to make us grow as people, to challenge us in every way and, frankly, to make us uncomfortable. We'll never be effective as spiritual leaders if we don't deal head-on with our issues about beliefs and our own personal issues.

ObiShawn

12-13-2005, 02:23 AM

We'll never be effective as spiritual leaders if we don't deal head-on with our issues about beliefs and our own personal issues.And you feel one must go to a seminary in order to do that?

ReinaMissy

12-13-2005, 02:51 AM

If one is to be a spiritual leader - specifically, an ordained minister who leads a church - seminary is essential in my opinion.

If you disagree, why?

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 02:59 AM

If you look closely I never said that he claimed that, I said that the faith he preached said that.
WHAT?!?!?! That makes no sense whatsoever....

Frankly nothing I say will change your mind if you believe nothing is wrong with what he says.
Never said that... But I am going to want quotes that can be verified if your going to make statements about his teaching... Accusing a pastor of what you said he tought is VERY DANGEROUS!! If he does infact teach that bad things don't happen to good people as you stated, You need to back it up.

I guess one of the main reasons I view Joel Osteen as such a big issue is because he is accepted generally by the public as a great Christian leader and this great man who has such strong and amazing faith, while obviously he is ok with leading these people into a weak faith. Most WOF preachers aren't generally accepted by the public.

No he isn't... He is seen as the Happy Preacher by the public... And unless you know the people at his church, and the faith the people of his church have, your making assumptions that you are not qualified to make!

You are judging the fruit of his ministry without even seeing the fruit, and your making assumptions by your....

I have very strong feelings about many things. I have a very strong intuition--first of all naturally(the woman's intuition), and secondly I have a very strong spiritual intuition. I know other people who do too, but I have a very sharp trigger in terms of if something bad is going to happen. Like the day my car broke down was the day I was running late and walked out the door with my cell phone, knowing that something was going to happen and I was going to need it.

Sometimes, I'll see things and watch things and be perfectly fine with it. Other times I get HUGE red flags in my heart. Before I ever really knew what Joel Osteen was about, I used to watch Lakewood services on TV. We sing Lakewood songs at our church so I figured it'd be something interesting to watch. And even then I got this feeling that something was really wrong with him, and it made me very, very uncomfortable.

Your statements are in conflict... You said you had a strong spiritual intuition, yet you said you watched Lakewood services on tv, and it wasn't untill you got interested to watch that you started feeling uncomfortable with him...

Something tells me that when you just casualy listened and your flags wern't going off you really didn't relize he was WOF... but when you relized it that's when your flags wen't off...

ObiShawn

12-13-2005, 05:52 AM

If one is to be a spiritual leader - specifically, an ordained minister who leads a church - seminary is essential in my opinion.

If you disagree, why?You didn't really answer the question . . . .

We'll never be effective as spiritual leaders if we don't deal head-on with our issues about beliefs and our own personal issues. Do you feel a person must go to a seminary in order to do that?

SmileyFreak1981

12-13-2005, 06:00 AM

WHAT?!?!?! That makes no sense whatsoever....

It made complete sense to me.

I believe what they were trying to say was that the things he "preaches", could mislead someone into believing that if something bad happens to them, that they are a bad person, and that it's consequential of something they've done. Bad things do happen to good people.

That being said, it concerns me greatly that a man heading a church with that many members, cannot boldly proclaim Christ as the only way to heaven, when his feet are put to the fire (And I won't even get into the part in the transcript with LKL where he says that being a Christian isn't hard...). He probably does believe in Christ with all his heart...but I don't know his heart. But, yet, at the same time, I have to wonder if maybe he's ever gone to the place where he questioned things, and dug for truth, or if he's just spent his whole life around Christianity and never really has been questioned before. (Which brings up the whole "being a Christian isn't hard" issue...)

For me personally, and for many, many people I know, their greatest growth in faith came after their greatest questioning and digging and desire to know truth, to know it for certain, with out a doubt, which often came through those not-so-easy times. My questioning, my digging, and what I discovered through that have strengthened my faith, to where I know that Jesus is the only way. Without a doubt. And believe me, there were times in my life when I wondered if the whole Jesus story was real, and there was a time when I thought that the idea of Christianity being a spoke on the wheel of God, along with Hinduism, and Islam, etc was appealing.

My only hope and prayer now is that God will use this as a catylist for growth with Joel Osteen. It would be cool to hear him say that experience taught him something, and led him to dig deeper. I guess we'll have to see if that happens...I just wish more Christians who go on Larry King and other shows like it, would be willing to answer the question, "Is Jesus the only way to go to heaven?" with a blunt, bold, resounding, "Yes."

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 11:39 AM

It made complete sense to me.

I believe what they were trying to say was that the things he "preaches", could mislead someone into believing that if something bad happens to them, that they are a bad person, and that it's consequential of something they've done. Bad things do happen to good people.

That being said, it concerns me greatly that a man heading a church with that many members, cannot boldly proclaim Christ as the only way to heaven, when his feet are put to the fire (And I won't even get into the part in the transcript with LKL where he says that being a Christian isn't hard...). He probably does believe in Christ with all his heart...but I don't know his heart. But, yet, at the same time, I have to wonder if maybe he's ever gone to the place where he questioned things, and dug for truth, or if he's just spent his whole life around Christianity and never really has been questioned before. (Which brings up the whole "being a Christian isn't hard" issue...)

For me personally, and for many, many people I know, their greatest growth in faith came after their greatest questioning and digging and desire to know truth, to know it for certain, with out a doubt, which often came through those not-so-easy times. My questioning, my digging, and what I discovered through that have strengthened my faith, to where I know that Jesus is the only way. Without a doubt. And believe me, there were times in my life when I wondered if the whole Jesus story was real, and there was a time when I thought that the idea of Christianity being a spoke on the wheel of God, along with Hinduism, and Islam, etc was appealing.

My only hope and prayer now is that God will use this as a catylist for growth with Joel Osteen. It would be cool to hear him say that experience taught him something, and led him to dig deeper. I guess we'll have to see if that happens...I just wish more Christians who go on Larry King and other shows like it, would be willing to answer the question, "Is Jesus the only way to go to heaven?" with a blunt, bold, resounding, "Yes."

Saying what he preaches can be mistaken, is definatly different than saying he preaches, and that's what she said... IF that isn't what she ment, Fine... But If your going to accuse a brother of preaching such a thing, you really need to back it up with Scripture...

*************

Well... once again if your going to knock Joel Osteen for not going onto Larry King and bluntly boldly answering the question the way you would prefer, then as I pointed out You also need to knock Billy Graham, because he did not bluntly and boldly say "Yes Jesus is the only way to goto heaven" during his interview the week before.....

Also, Let me say this.... When somone say's christianity isn't hard they are more right than they are wrong...

The fact is no part of christianity is our responsiblity save, getting close to God... God sent his Son in grace to sacrifice himself, God gave to each man the same measure of faith to believe, it is God who through a relationship with him changes us, removes from us our wicked nature and clothes us with his righteousness.....

The "Hard Part" of christianity is done by God....

Any part of christianty that is hard by our pathetic American Standards is imposed on us by our soul and flesh....

If you really want to see 'Hard Christianity' I suggest a trip to Pakastan, or China....

middletree

12-13-2005, 12:05 PM

If one is to be a spiritual leader - specifically, an ordained minister who leads a church - seminary is essential in my opinion.

If you disagree, why?

1. Because seminaries are an invention of men, not God. They serve their purpose, but God can and does bring people into professional ministry any way He chooses.

2. It's just as possible for someone to enter a seminary and draw farther away from God than when he went in. I have seen this happen twice, to people I knew quite well.

One eventually left his wife for another woman, after deciding that the bible isn't reliable, an opinion he derived while doing his research for classes.

The other hasn't left his wife yet, but has decided that he wants nothing to do with Christianity at all. This man was very gung-ho for God when he entered the seminary, and wanted to change the world. It was during his time at seminary that did his spiritual about-face.

3. We are all ministers. I minister as a home-group leader and through some writing I have done. Others at my church minister by greeting people at the door, teaching Sunday school, filling the communion cups, playing musical instruments, etc. Who among these should go to seminary in order to carry out their duties?

If seminary works for you, fine; but if you are of the opinion that it is necessary for anyone who wants to minister to anyone, then I feel for you. You have a view of ministry that is very narrow and, ultimately, not as robust as it could be.

ObiShawn

12-13-2005, 01:17 PM

Exactly!

1. Because seminaries are an invention of men, not God. They serve their purpose, but God can and does bring people into professional ministry any way He chooses.

2. It's just as possible for someone to enter a seminary and draw farther away from God than when he went in. I have seen this happen twice, to people I knew quite well. Just to hit on points 1 and 2, I know a pastor that went to seminary 3 times. Of course he learned things while in there, but he said for the most part, the main thing he learned was to trust God more than he did before he went in, but the seminary didn't teach him that directly. It was a result of having to pay so much for the schooling. He had to trust God for his next follar and for his next meal, which usually consisted of a loaf of bread and a can of Beanie Wennies from a convenience store.

3. We are all ministers. I minister as a home-group leader and through some writing I have done. Others at my church minister by greeting people at the door, teaching Sunday school, filling the communion cups, playing musical instruments, etc. Who among these should go to seminary in order to carry out their duties?Eph 4:11-12
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry
(NKJ, bold is mine)We are all ministers.

But now I reverse the question ReinaMissy, why do you feel attending a seminary is essential?

middletree

12-13-2005, 02:12 PM

But now I reverse the question ReinaMissy, why do you feel attending a seminary is essential?

Well, she answered this in a post on the previous page:

It is meant to make us grow as people, to challenge us in every way and, frankly, to make us uncomfortable.

I don't agree with her here. You can grow as a person whether or not you go to seminary. Reminds me of when I got out of the Army, several people asked me if I felt the Army had made me into a man. I replied that I went in as a teenager, came out as a 22-year-old. So of course I matured.

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 03:09 PM

I would say that All Full time Ministers should have some form of Ministerial Training, weather that is Seminary, Bible School, Masters Program, Mentorship, Discipleship etc....

Jesus spent Three years getting his 12 Disciples to where they could become apostles....

I would like for more pastors, especialy in the Charasmatic, Nondenominational circles to have more theological background... but that is just me...

ObiShawn

12-13-2005, 03:38 PM

I would like for more pastors, especialy in the Charasmatic, Nondenominational circles to have more theological background... but that is just me...That's a rather arrogant statement. I know plenty of non-denoms that have more "theological background" than most of the traditional denominationalist I know.

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 04:11 PM

That's a rather arrogant statement. I know plenty of non-denoms that have more "theological background" than most of the traditional denominationalist I know.

Really...

I find that hard to belive considering most denominations require Seminary or some form of Ministarial training for pulpit ministry... and to start your own Nondenominational church, you can just pick up a recent copy of Charisma Magazine, and send any of the dozen or so companies that advertise in the back 49.99 and they will send you your ministarial credentals... another 100 bucks and they will help you form your own 5013C Non profit entity....

ObiShawn

12-13-2005, 04:20 PM

I find that hard to belive considering most denominations require Seminary or some form of Ministarial training for pulpit ministry... "Some form of ministarial training?" How about one that only lines up and re-enforces that denomination's doctrines and traditions? I suppose its possible, but I've never heard of a Baptist attending a Pentecostal seminary.

. . . and to start your own Nondenominational church, you can just pick up a recent copy of Charisma Magazine, and send any of the dozen or so companies that advertise in the back 49.99 and they will send you your ministarial credentals... another 100 bucks and they will help you form your own 5013C Non profit entity....Really? I didn't know that. IF this is true, then I agree with your appeant disapproval of it. But my original point is that you should lump all non-denoms in together. That's like an unbeliever saying that all Christains are hypocrits and self-righteous just because of the few bad apples he's encountered.

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 04:40 PM

"Some form of ministarial training?" How about one that only lines up and re-enforces that denomination's doctrines and traditions? I suppose its possible, but I've never heard of a Baptist attending a Pentecostal seminary.

Then your disagreement isn't with the a need for Ministerial Training, rather the content of the training, and with that I couldn't be in any more agreement!

Really? I didn't know that. IF this is true, then I agree with your appeant disapproval of it. But my original point is that you should lump all non-denoms in together. That's like an unbeliever saying that all Christains are hypocrits and self-righteous just because of the few bad apples he's encountered.

It is true, go to Barnes and Noble, and in the Magazine section pick up the latest issue of Charisma, flip to the back of the magazine and you will see advertisements for stressed membrane churches, acrylic pulpits, and Ministerial Creditentals and Ordinations.... (Along with services to help people start their own church).

I would also Like to point out that I attend a non-denominational Church, and my Pastor is somone who had no formal Schooling, rather was Mentored and raised up by his pastor... However My Pastor is still under submission to the Authority of his pastor....

All I am trying to point out is, there are LOTS of churches out there right now being pastored by people who simply feel 'called'. They have no training to look to in how to handle situations, they have little or nor experience in actually handeling situations, and they have no covering (MOST IMPORTANT) in guiding them through situations they may not have training for or experience in....

To me a small church, with an inexperienced, unknowledged, uncovered Pastor who simply 'operates from the guidance of the spirit' is FAR more dangerious than somone like Joel Osteen.... JMHO....

ObiShawn

12-13-2005, 04:48 PM

I would also Like to point out that I attend a non-denominational Church, and my Pastor is somone who had no formal Schooling, rather was Mentored and raised up by his pastor... However My Pastor is still under submission to the Authority of his pastor....

All I am trying to point out is, there are LOTS of churches out there right now being pastored by people who simply feel 'called'. They have no training to look to in how to handle situations, they have little or nor experience in actually handeling situations, and they have no covering (MOST IMPORTANT) in guiding them through situations they may not have training for or experience in....Ok, I see what you're saying now and I agree. There has to be accountability, there needs to be a covering. My only argument in the beginning was against the premise that seminary was the only source for ministry validation.

middletree

12-13-2005, 05:05 PM

They have no training to look to in how to handle situations, they have little or nor experience in actually handeling situations, and they have no covering (MOST IMPORTANT) in guiding them through situations they may not have training for or experience in....

I don't quarrel that a minister needs training. The person who ministers by greeting people at the door needs to be shown what to do, and how to handle various situations. Same for the person who ministers by teaching Sunday School, or playing bass on the worship team.

Where I differ from you is on the following two points:

1. That such training must be in a seminary. The bible isn't real clear, but it seems that the church should be responsible for the training. The seminary is just one way for that to happen.

2. That there is something special about full-time ministers, as opposed to other Christians, which requires formal training.

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 05:07 PM

Ok, I see what you're saying now and I agree. There has to be accountability, there needs to be a covering. My only argument in the beginning was against the premise that seminary was the only source for ministry validation.

Seminary, is only one of many avenues one could travel through in order to become prepared for ministry...

Personally I think Mentorship is one of the best, and yet often overlooked forms of Ministry Training. Timothy didn't attend Seminary, he Mentored and studied under Paul.

But I also don't diss seminary training either... A Seminarian after God will come out with the knowledge necessary to not only preach the gospel, but to ensure that Believers are not stumbling into theological pits and the like...

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 07:22 PM

I was simply saying that comparing "Joel not going to seminary" to a disciple who walked personally on earth with Jesus for three years (including seeing the resurrected Christ and having lunch with Him) doesn't really work, for obvious reasons....

Rock

Well, What about working hand and hand with your father in his ministry for 20 years? Afterall that's what Joel Osteen did.

Pouye

12-13-2005, 08:37 PM

Well, What about working hand and hand with your father in his ministry for 20 years? Afterall that's what Joel Osteen did.

So he learned the ropes from dad... but what's holding him back? He can always get a seminary degree... even online, at home, and at his own pace. That would shut his critics up, too.

I simply do not like Joel's messages, period. They are feel good Christianity at its finest, with a good dose of Social Gospel in the mix. I'm sure he's a great guy who learned how to be a preacher like his dad... a chip off the old block... but his milktoast approaches do not do much for me, that's all. God can use just about anyone, though... even a donkey.

Rock

cheewiee

12-13-2005, 09:58 PM

So he learned the ropes from dad... but what's holding him back? He can always get a seminary degree... even online, at home, and at his own pace. That would shut his critics up, too.

I simply do not like Joel's messages, period. They are feel good Christianity at its finest, with a good dose of Social Gospel in the mix. I'm sure he's a great guy who learned how to be a preacher like his dad... a chip off the old block... but his milktoast approaches do not do much for me, that's all. God can use just about anyone, though... even a donkey.

Rock

Actually you would be supprised.... His father was much more of a firebrand... he was thrown out of the SBC after he had an 'encounter' with the Holy Spirit.....

Pouye

12-13-2005, 11:22 PM

Actually you would be supprised.... His father was much more of a firebrand... he was thrown out of the SBC after he had an 'encounter' with the Holy Spirit.....

Maybe he should be more like his dad, then...

Rock

ReinaMissy

12-14-2005, 01:56 AM

Nowhere did I state that seminary is absolutely necessary for every spiritual leader, middle, so don't insult me by stating such extreme things and telling me I have narrow views. That's laughable, considering some of the narrow views I have seen expressed on these boards.

You're being unrealistic if you think that the pastor of a large congregation simply reaches that point without preparation.

1. Because seminaries are an invention of men, not God. They serve their purpose, but God can and does bring people into professional ministry any way He chooses.

2. It's just as possible for someone to enter a seminary and draw farther away from God than when he went in. I have seen this happen twice, to people I knew quite well.

One eventually left his wife for another woman, after deciding that the bible isn't reliable, an opinion he derived while doing his research for classes.

The other hasn't left his wife yet, but has decided that he wants nothing to do with Christianity at all. This man was very gung-ho for God when he entered the seminary, and wanted to change the world. It was during his time at seminary that did his spiritual about-face.

3. We are all ministers. I minister as a home-group leader and through some writing I have done. Others at my church minister by greeting people at the door, teaching Sunday school, filling the communion cups, playing musical instruments, etc. Who among these should go to seminary in order to carry out their duties?

If seminary works for you, fine; but if you are of the opinion that it is necessary for anyone who wants to minister to anyone, then I feel for you. You have a view of ministry that is very narrow and, ultimately, not as robust as it could be.