Christmas Vs. Holiday

[cheewiee]

My Pastor has gone off on a few rants recently about the replacement of the word Christmas. Primarly Retail Outlets calling their sales, Holiday Sales vs. Christmas Sales... He denounced it as being PC gone mad...

Anyway On another board I post on an Anglican Priest was posting about the secularization of the Christmas Holiday. He celebrated Christmas as part of the Lutergical Calendar and such... So while I didn't agree with everything he said, He did say something that gave me Pause.. The fact that the current Secularization of Christmas is in fact using the Lords Name in vein...

Well this comment made me think about the use of the Term Christmas, specificly about my Pastor's comments... I suppose now that I think about it, Christians should be opposed to the use of Christ's name to promote a rabit materialistic drive to get retailers lifted out of the red and into the black during what they call their 'Golden Quarter'.

I relize that this may be an unpopular oppinion but how can we as Christians really get all upset about it... Sure it's one more step to remove Christ from our society... But atleast it is a step that isn't sullying the Name of the Lord with that of the moneychangers....

I dunno... Would the Jesus that cast the money changers from the Temple be ok with what has become of a celebration of his birth?

[kh294God]

You know...I've never thought about it that way (don't think any people has)...many people will jump on the boat to bash the way Halloween is celebrate (I am either or on that on)...but not the way we "celebrate" Jesus' birth...interesting stuff...makes you (well me at least) think....

[mcgreen311]

Interesting angle...I definitely think there are some who are making the Holiday vs. Christmas a bigger issue than it is. I got an email about it today as a matter of fact.

Retail stores are private enterprises that can mention whichever holidays they wish. It's about what is going to generate the most sales. We can't dictate to them what they can and cannot say to customer as they enter/exit (within reason). While they worry about the "left" imposing thier will upon the nation, the "right" tries to impose theirs as well, but justifying it by saying Christianity is the foundation of this nation.

Unbelievers are not subject to our "rules." Focusing on these relativity minor issues discredit us when dealing with major issues. We should be witnesses of God's love instead of thought/speech police. (Big Brother, anyone?)

Along the lines of what the Anglican priest posted, perhaps we could use that lovely abbreviation X-mas for retail Christmas and keep "Christmas" for its original intent.

How does one celebrate Christmas as part of the liturgical calendar?

[Howlin' Wolf]

i could care less. last time i checked, christmas was based off of a pagan holiday. and in america, there are jews, muslims, buddhists, kwanzaans, and secular people all celebrating a holiday.

what urks me is that churches get caught up in this and want to rant and rave about it from the pulpit. i highly doubt the presecuted church in china, where there is no christmas, is focusing on such trivial matters

[Gandalf]

i could care less. last time i checked, christmas was based off of a pagan holiday. and in america, there are jews, muslims, buddhists, kwanzaans, and secular people all celebrating a holiday.
The timing of Christmas may coincide with some old pagan holiday... who cares? The point of it today is still the celebration of the birth of Christ. Personally, I consider Easter a much more important Christian holiday though.

[cheewiee]

How does one celebrate Christmas as part of the liturgical calendar?

As I have never been in a Liturgical service I have no clue... So I went to the source.. This a quote from his post...
December 25th is as much a liturgical day as anything else anymore. For me, The Incarnation Cycle (Advent and Christmastide) runs from the First Sunday of Advent (usually the Sunday after thanksgiving) until Shrove Tuesday (the day before Ash Wednesday). Then the Paschal Cycle begins (Lent, Holy Week, Triduum, Pascha, Ascensiontide, Pentecost). It's a part of a liturgical calendar designed to teach the faith. I have no problem with that... I could really care less when Jesus was actually born (sometime between mid-March and mid-May being the best guess, which would attach it historically with the current feast of the Annuncation, which was the original (and for the first 300 years of the faith, the only) day dedicated specifically to the mystery of the Incarnation of Christ).


As far as Christmas being a Pagan holiday, that is not necessarly true... Christmas has always been held on the 25th of December, wereas the Winter Solstice (The Pagan Holiday) has always been on the 21st of December....

[cheewiee]

The timing of Christmas may coincide with some old pagan holiday... who cares? The point of it today is still the celebration of the birth of Christ. Personally, I consider Easter a much more important Christian holiday though.

While I don't quesiton the importance of the Ressurection... I find it odd that at the lack of ephasis placed on Good Friday by the Protestant Churches...

[Howlin' Wolf]

While I don't quesiton the importance of the Ressurection... I find it odd that at the lack of ephasis placed on Good Friday by the Protestant Churches...

i find it odd that christians dont celebrate passover. though we may be gentile in blood, we arent in history

[cheewiee]

i find it odd that christians dont celebrate passover. though we may be gentile in blood, we arent in history

My Dad and his weird ultra prohpetic church group does....

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying celebrating Passover is weird... Praying with a prayer Shaw is weird... well when your not Jewish it's weird...

But then Alot of Christians view the Passover as being replaced by Good Friday....

[kh294God]

Personally, I consider Easter a much more important Christian holiday though.
i'd have to agree with you...i don't understand why some companies pay holiday pay for thanksgiving, christmas, new years day, mardi gras (south Louisiana), but they won't think twice about telling no to holiday pay or time off to celebrate the day Jesus rose from the dead. :confused:

[kh294God]

Praying with a prayer Shaw is weird....
don't knock it until you have see or heard what miracles have come from praying with a pray shaw (or clothe)

[cheewiee]

don't knock it until you have see or heard what miracles have come from praying with a pray shaw (or clothe)

You underestimate my dad.. I have heard about the Miracles....

However it has nothing to do with a prayer cloth!

[middletree]

I saw this thread late, but am pleased with what I have read in the first few posts. It is amazing ot me that Christians get caught up in protesting Target or whatever because the word Christmas is getting replaced by "Holiday". Actually, it doesn't amaze me at all, and that is sad.

For the record, the bible never tells us to celebrate Jesus' birth, and in fact, seems to go out of its way to avoid telling us when He was born. Sure, we can guess with what we know about the culture at that time, but that's not the same as God telling us directly.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating it, either. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that anyone who thinks that they are being more biblical by celebrating it is incorrect. It's a man-made holiday, pure and simple. As has been noted already here, we have bigger things to be concerned about.

[HotWireD]

i could care less. last time i checked, christmas was based off of a pagan holiday. and in america, there are jews, muslims, buddhists, kwanzaans, and secular people all celebrating a holiday.

what urks me is that churches get caught up in this and want to rant and rave about it from the pulpit. i highly doubt the presecuted church in china, where there is no christmas, is focusing on such trivial matters

The timing of Christmas may coincide with some old pagan holiday... who cares? The point of it today is still the celebration of the birth of Christ. Personally, I consider Easter a much more important Christian holiday though.

I agree with Tulip and I agree with Gandalf.

I am pretty sure that Jesus was not born on December 25TH (or the equivalent date in Roman times). December 25 was one of the dates of the Roman pagan celebration of the birth of the Sun God Mithras

It was a sort of official birthday celebration for the Roman emperor (who was considered a god by his pagan subjects). The early Christians adopted it because they could then celebrate the Christ's birth without fear of being persecuted/found out. I think it may have also assisted conversion of pagans - they could understand that Christ was God as he was a king (emperor) as well and could then celebrate his birth too. I am not sure of the exact date of Jesus' birth, apparently there was a census in Palestine around August?

I accept that the opinion I have given here is my own and may be innacurate as to the date of the Christ's birth.
Jesus' birthday date is not that important to me. The fact he was born is.

Easter was a pagan celebration to Eastre (also spelled 'Easter', 'Ostara' and 'Eastre'), the pagan goddess of Fertility. Her symbol is the egg.

Just because a date is shared with a pagan deity does not mean that the days should not be celebrated. We all must share our birthdays with lots of other people and events, good and bad.

As to the 'recent' commercialisation of Christmas, I agree, what has spending lots of money got to do with the birth of the Christ. There is also a false sense of friendship, lots of people saying 'Happy Christmas' to strangers who they would not normally give the time of day to.

I work in crime prevention and detection. I can categorically state that the 'festive season' is a time of noise, violence, over eating, over drinking and crime in general. I also recognise that the people doing the above things are not the Christians, but the people who just need an excuse to be obnoxious.

In my office, we have decided to forego getting greetings cards for each other and pool the money together to give to people less fortunate than outselves (which is what I do anyway every year)..

As to how recent the commercialisation of Christmas is ...

(Seneca, AD50)
'It is now the month of December, when the greatest part of the city is in a bustle. Loose reins are given to public dissipation; everywhere you may hear the sound of great preparations, as if there were some real difference between the days devoted to Saturn and those for transacting business.'

So, even the pagans were concerned about commercialisation of their celebrations.

As far as Christmas being a Pagan holiday, that is not necessarly true... Christmas has always been held on the 25th of December, wereas the Winter Solstice (The Pagan Holiday) has always been on the 21st of December....

The Winter Solstice (Equinox) is the longest night, which is usually the 21st or (rarely 20th or 22nd) December. This is a different pagan celebration than that of Mithras (25TH) and Saturnalia (17TH to 25TH). It is amazing how many celebrations are held by various different pagan groups and other religions in the period from about the 17th to 25th December.

Christmas in the Western Christian tradition began being celebrated on 25th December about AD350, although I believe the first reference to the birth of the Christ being on 25th was around AD170.

[Wikipedia]
Christmas is now celebrated on December 25 in Catholic, Protestant, and most Orthodox churches. The Coptic, Jerusalem, Russian, Serbian, Macedonian and Georgian Orthodox churches celebrate Christmas on January 7.

Last point, why do some people celebrate the birth of the Christ on one day only? Should not Christians celebrate his birth every minute of every day?

PS: I abhore the term 'Xmas'. I have seen it used in chat rooms by pagans to annoy Christians.

[HotWireD]

I saw this thread late, but am pleased with what I have read in the first few posts. It is amazing ot me that Christians get caught up in protesting Target or whatever because the word Christmas is getting replaced by "Holiday". Actually, it doesn't amaze me at all, and that is sad.

For the record, the bible never tells us to celebrate Jesus' birth, and in fact, seems to go out of its way to avoid telling us when He was born. Sure, we can guess with what we know about the culture at that time, but that's not the same as God telling us directly.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating it, either. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that anyone who thinks that they are being more biblical by celebrating it is incorrect. It's a man-made holiday, pure and simple. As has been noted already here, we have bigger things to be concerned about.

If I had seen this post, I would not have posted mine - this is much clearer and makes more sense.

[cheewiee]

PS: I abhore the term 'Xmas'. I have seen it used in chat rooms by pagans to annoy Christians.

Don't get annoyed... It also Means Christ...

From Wiki:
Xmas (or X-mas) is an abbreviation for Christmas. It is derived from the word ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ, transliterated as Christos, which is Greek for Christ. Greek is the language in which the whole New Testament was written.

Originally, in "Xmas", X represented the Greek letter χ (see chi). It was pronounced with a hard [kh], which is the first letter of Christ's name in Greek. However, because of the modern interpretations of the letter X, many people do not know this and assume that this abbreviation is meant to drop Christ from Christmas as a means of secularization or a vehicle for political correctness.

Somone used the term X-Mas verbally to me once trying to get my goat, when I laughed at them, and proceded to explain to them the fallacy... I think it got them madder than they were trying to get me...

[HotWireD]

Don't get annoyed... It also Means Christ...

From Wiki:

Somone used the term X-Mas verbally to me once trying to get my goat, when I laughed at them, and proceded to explain to them the fallacy... I think it got them madder than they were trying to get me...

I should have known that. Thank you for the clarification. I will not let it annoy me anymore, Cheers, :p

[middletree]

The fact that the current Secularization of Christmas is in fact using the Lords Name in vein...

This is incorrect. His name is Jesus. The Father's name is Yahweh. Neither of these names appears in the term "Christmas." The word Christ is a title, not a name.

Christ is not part of Jesus' name anymore than "H." is His middle initial.

[cheewiee]

This is incorrect. His name is Jesus. The Father's name is Yahweh. Neither of these names appears in the term "Christmas." The word Christ is a title, not a name.

Christ is not part of Jesus' name anymore than "H." is His middle initial.

While you are right, Christ is not Jesus' name, it still sully's the title..

[middletree]

Actually, there was a very interesting special on the History Channel that made a good case for Jesus being born in what is our April.


Cases can be made for Fall (late Sept/early October) or early Spring.

And if I'm not wrong, Christmas was set up in early AD Europe to draw some primitive tribes away from worshipping their pagan deities on the same night.

The Dec 25 part of Christmas is the least of the paganistic characteristics of the holiday. The tree, for example, comes directly from idol worship. Do a search for the phrase "green tree" in the Old Testament, and you'll see lots of verses like:

Isaiah 57:5 "being inflamed with idols under every green tree, killing the little sons in the valleys under the clefts of the rocks"

The word for green there, and in other verses, is actually for evergreens. Long after the bible stopped being written, the Druids practiced cultic rituals involving evergreens.

In fact, all kind of cultic things have made their way into Christianity, from Christmas, to steeples, to Easter. I hate Easter. Absolutely hate it. It's named specifically for Ashtoreth(fertility goddess), one of the two most prominent idols in Scripture. To celebrate Jesus in the name of an idol is just wrong. To add fertility symbols such as the rabbit and egg is just a slap in the face.

[HotWireD]

And if I'm not wrong, Christmas was set up in early AD Europe to draw some primitive tribes away from worshipping their pagan deities on the same night.

A lot of churches in Europe were built on pagan sacred groves for the same sort of reason. You can get the pagans to visit the church because it is on their sacred ground, they then worship side by side with the early Christians, who then eventually converted them.

I will stick to celebrating every day as it comes and leave particular days to those who want them. I can never remember a particular date anyway. I have even missed my own birthday on more than several occasions.

The giving of presents and the Green Tree appear (to me) to be of Northern Europe origin. The Norse used to hang things (not always nice) on their trees. Votive offerings to Woden. Mistletoe and Holly also have a place in pagan rituals and lore.

[GuitarMan2387]

i like mistletoe, haha, hahaha, for obvious reasons. lol

[HotWireD]

i like mistletoe, haha, hahaha, for obvious reasons. lol

Obviously, lol :rolleyes:

[GuitarMan2387]

haha im just messing around.

I think converting pagan holidays to christian ones is a great idea.

You get a whole other religion to possible convert.

[Jason]

I abhore the term 'Xmas'. I have seen it used in chat rooms by pagans to annoy Christians.

Its origins are hardly annoying. X is the Greek letter Chi which is the first letter of Christ. Just a shortened form of Christ.

[Jason]

Whoops. Someone already posted that.

[GuitarMan2387]

thats interesting, i used to not use that, but now I see its the same.

[prayercloth sis]

This guy at wal-Mart today told me he couldn't wish me a Merry Christmas..they weren't allowed too!!! But he could wish me Happy Holidays?!?!?

Oh well


It will always be Christmas to me...and those of us who know Jesus..will use and celebrate this time correctly...

Merry Christmas everyone...

Rhonie

[TLJ]

My concern is not so much about where the tree originally came from or what day Jesus was really born. My concern with the whole thing is that it is becoming politically incorrect, offensive in fact, to acknowledge God/Jesus/Christ/Christianity in this country in any public fashion. It's eeking into almost every aspect of life in this country now. Schools, government, businesses, and now even our Christian holidays. The whole purpose of the establishment clause in the constitution was to prevent the government from establishing the religion. Now it seems to me with what has been going on, it is working to do exactly that, by slowly establishing an anti-theistic system in this country.

[NotMyOwn]

The timing of Christmas may coincide with some old pagan holiday... who cares? The point of it today is still the celebration of the birth of Christ. Personally, I consider Easter a much more important Christian holiday though.


I agree Brian.

[ICarlson99]

From a secular perspective I just think it's ignorant to not realize that if it wasn't for Christmas, there wouldn't be any vacation time for anyone (which is how most people define holidays nowadays anyways - A for alliteration :p )

[cheewiee]

My concern is not so much about where the tree originally came from or what day Jesus was really born. My concern with the whole thing is that it is becoming politically incorrect, offensive in fact, to acknowledge God/Jesus/Christ/Christianity in this country in any public fashion. It's eeking into almost every aspect of life in this country now. Schools, government, businesses, and now even our Christian holidays. The whole purpose of the establishment clause in the constitution was to prevent the government from establishing the religion. Now it seems to me with what has been going on, it is working to do exactly that, by slowly establishing an anti-theistic system in this country.

Lemme ask you this, if it does become politically incorrect, or offensive to acknowledge God/Jesus/Christ/Christianity in this country really change anything? Does that somehow magicly make the bible untrue somehow, or make our individual faith invalid? Does it somehow mean that the Great commission no longer exists?

Are we christians because we live in a supposed Christian Nation?!? Do we carry out the great commission because we have the freedom to? Lemme tell you this, in 33Ad when the church was founded on the Day of Pentacost, Rome was not a Christian Nation, and for a period Christianity had the protections of the Jewish faith, however that did change, and there were times in the first 3 centuries where being a christian would cost you your life. Peter didn't live in a Christian Nation and look at the works he did. He eventualy paid with his life for his faith.

I am not suggesting that we simply ignore the political, but we need to get a grip on ourselves... The United States of America is a secular nation, it is not a theocracy (Rule by judges and a Prophet as was Israel before Saul). When Israel wanted to be ruled by a secular king, God gave them their wishes... If America wants to be ruled by secular law, God will give us our wishes... Sure in the Past we may have been a nation of Godliness, however this nation is still part of the world system, in rebellion against God's order... Most of us have been fortionate to have a country that respects the God Given freedoms that we enjoy, but if that Changes, it should not change us!

[ExtravagantlyLoved]

At church camp this weekend one of my friends/mentors got really hyped up about this same subject. He doesn't like sayings such as "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings." He gets pretty upset about it.

[kiwisongbird]

i find it odd that christians dont celebrate passover. though we may be gentile in blood, we arent in history
We celebrate Passover with friends in our own little way - it's wonderful and meaningful, but we also celebrate Christmas and the birth of Christ.. celebrating Passover really opens up the birth of Christ in an awesome way.... :)

[Eowyn]

I think somewhere in the state they where thinking of officially changing the name of the parade from "Christmas" to "Holiday"! :eek:

[prayercloth sis]

My concern is not so much about where the tree originally came from or what day Jesus was really born. My concern with the whole thing is that it is becoming politically incorrect, offensive in fact, to acknowledge God/Jesus/Christ/Christianity in this country in any public fashion. It's eeking into almost every aspect of life in this country now. Schools, government, businesses, and now even our Christian holidays. The whole purpose of the establishment clause in the constitution was to prevent the government from establishing the religion. Now it seems to me with what has been going on, it is working to do exactly that, by slowly establishing an anti-theistic system in this country.

Excellent point....thank you for posting this...

Rhonie

[prayercloth sis]

Just to note..some folks I know refer to "easter" as Resurrection Day"....

I have to admit i like thier reference of Jesus Resurrection...

posted this after seeing someone's post about the meaning of Easter..

God Bless

Rhonie

[ICarlson99]

Lemme ask you this, if it does become politically incorrect, or offensive to acknowledge God/Jesus/Christ/Christianity in this country really change anything? Does that somehow magicly make the bible untrue somehow, or make our individual faith invalid? Does it somehow mean that the Great commission no longer exists?

Are we christians because we live in a supposed Christian Nation?!? Do we carry out the great commission because we have the freedom to? Lemme tell you this, in 33Ad when the church was founded on the Day of Pentacost, Rome was not a Christian Nation, and for a period Christianity had the protections of the Jewish faith, however that did change, and there were times in the first 3 centuries where being a christian would cost you your life. Peter didn't live in a Christian Nation and look at the works he did. He eventualy paid with his life for his faith.

I am not suggesting that we simply ignore the political, but we need to get a grip on ourselves... The United States of America is a secular nation, it is not a theocracy (Rule by judges and a Prophet as was Israel before Saul). When Israel wanted to be ruled by a secular king, God gave them their wishes... If America wants to be ruled by secular law, God will give us our wishes... Sure in the Past we may have been a nation of Godliness, however this nation is still part of the world system, in rebellion against God's order... Most of us have been fortionate to have a country that respects the God Given freedoms that we enjoy, but if that Changes, it should not change us!

You're right it changes nothing about God or the truth, but it's sad for this nation. We were founded, like it or not, on the Judeo-Christian ethic - which is what made us a great nation and a light to the rest of the world. To remove that from our present is to change the course of our country. If the United States ever loses it's clout in this world, the world will be worse for it. And a huge step towards a bleak future for all is to minimize our past and the foundation of our nation.

[cheewiee]

You're right it changes nothing about God or the truth, but it's sad for this nation.

What is sad for this nation, is that we as Christians have become so vile and bitter towards sinners, that we would rather engage in hateful dialogue (Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson), than to show them that there is a way out from their wickedness...

We were founded, like it or not, on the Judeo-Christian ethic - which is what made us a great nation and a light to the rest of the world.

Can you define the Judeo-Christian ethic for me? An example, Interest charged on loans is not part of the Judeo-Christian Ethic, and yet it is the very basis of our economic system. C.S. Lewis points out in Mere Christianity that a Christian Society would be more socialist in nature.

And a huge step towards a bleak future for all is to minimize our past and the foundation of our nation.

I disagree, My future is in my savior, not in any nation. I am not an American first Christian Second, my alegience isn't to a flag, rather to my God! I do not for one second flinch at the thought of a secular America, because a secular America doesn't change anything for me. My life is the same, my God is the same, my call and commission is the same. We should not... We Cannot allow this secular religion of patriotism to be more important to us than our faith in our God, otherwise we have an Idol... And yes American can be an Idol.

[Chaser]

I am a Canadian living in Sweden.

I am very happy I am here for Christmas, here its is celebrated for what it is, a Christian holiday. In Canada they have taken all mention of what the holiday is out of our schools and most retailers have as well. This worries me to no end, why do this? To appease a growing population of other religons? To ensure a state of "PC"ness that is sickening. I don't get it, other faiths have thier holidays (Ramadam, Hanaaka Sorry for the spelling and others) all of which are celebrated for what they are, why not put Christ back in Christmas?

Lets get to the root of this, Christmas is a Christian holiday, period, end of story. Should we as Christians turn a blind eye to this? Should we sit idly by and watch this? I for one will not, I have and will continue to verbally protest.

Thats my rant.

[ICarlson99]

What is sad for this nation, is that we as Christians have become so vile and bitter towards sinners, that we would rather engage in hateful dialogue (Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson), than to show them that there is a way out from their wickedness...


I'm not a fan of any of those (nice how you let them define "us") - but perhaps you should read up on something called "Liberty Godparent Foundation", a group founded by Falwell which provides pregnancy services as well as academic classes, bible study and pretty much takes care of all their needs - FREE OF CHARGE - for any girl aged 12 to 21 that's pregnant.


Can you define the Judeo-Christian ethic for me? An example, Interest charged on loans is not part of the Judeo-Christian Ethic, and yet it is the very basis of our economic system. C.S. Lewis points out in Mere Christianity that a Christian Society would be more socialist in nature.


It would probably take a few hours to give a full definition - but to summarize, it's based on the idea that the relationship between God and man is the foundation of our society. The God of the Old and New Testament (hence the Judeo-Christian ethic). C.S. Lewis fundamentally misuderstood socialism. Government isn't the conduit by which we should care for each other, the church is.


I disagree, My future is in my savior, not in any nation. I am not an American first Christian Second, my alegience isn't to a flag, rather to my God! I do not for one second flinch at the thought of a secular America, because a secular America doesn't change anything for me. My life is the same, my God is the same, my call and commission is the same. We should not... We Cannot allow this secular religion of patriotism to be more important to us than our faith in our God, otherwise we have an Idol... And yes American can be an Idol.

You don't have to pledge your allegiance to America over God to see that America has brought more freedom and more religious liberty to the world than any other nation on earth. America is the first nation on earth which has integrated Judaism and Christianity. Patriotism in itself means nothing, but patriotism defined as bringing a better way of life to the rest of world is something all people should rally around, not just Christians.

Anti-Americanism is a much more dangerous idol than Americanism.

Don't remove yourself so far from the world that you completely abandon it.

[cheewiee]

I'm not a fan of any of those (nice how you let them define "us")
I don't let them define us... We do.. When you ask somone in the world to name a Evangelical that's what you get, not the Billy Grahams or the Luis Palaus...

C.S. Lewis fundamentally misuderstood socialism. Government isn't the conduit by which we should care for each other, the church is.
I would say you fundamentally misunderstand Government... If you read through the Pauline epistles you will learn that the first level of government IS the church... and for those who will not submit to the Church, they have the secular government. If you read the early church, they were socialist in nature, those that had shared with those that had not, and no one wanted for anything (Within the Church mind you).

You don't have to pledge your allegiance to America over God to see that America has brought more freedom and more religious liberty to the world than any other nation on earth. America is the first nation on earth which has integrated Judaism and Christianity. Patriotism in itself means nothing, but patriotism defined as bringing a better way of life to the rest of world is something all people should rally around, not just Christians.

Patriotism is fine, as long as it is not blind. Like I said, God gave Israel a Secular King because that is what she wanted. If America wants a Secular Nation God will give her what she wants. The only thing we can do here is to show people the better way... Show people that God's system is better than mans system, Show people the love and power of God so that by it they can change.. And when ENOUGH people change, America will again be a Christian Nation.

Anti-Americanism is a much more dangerous idol than Americanism. Nothing I said was Anti-American...

Don't remove yourself so far from the world that you completely abandon it.

I am not abandoning the world, But It is Much easier to save somone drowning from outside the water than inside.

[ICarlson99]

I agree with most of what you said except for the role of government. The role of government is not to alleviate everyone's problem, it's to provide for the physical security of it's people.

It's one thing for individuals to choose to sell their possessions and give to those in need as they see fit (this is the model of Paul's epistles). It's quite another to say that the government should get one's possessions and redistribute as it sees fit (that's the socialist model). I think the track record of socialism speaks for itself.

Capitalism is much closer to the Christian model than socialism and is a far more effective economic system (less inefficiency) - just look at the quality of life for the "poor" in a capitalist system versus the "poor" in a socialist system. It's not a coincidence that when a disaster strikes, the capitalist societies give FAR more (and quickly and efficiently as well) than any socialist society (or any other society for that matter).

Part of the Judeo-Christian ethic is working and providing for yourself as much as possible, now compare the unemployment rate in the US (5%) to the unemployment rate in any socialist system (double digits in France and Germany - heavily socialist economies). That's just one of many examples where socialism works against the Judeo-Christian ethic. Not to mention all the mass murders ;)

[cheewiee]

It's one thing for individuals to choose to sell their possessions and give to those in need as they see fit (this is the model of Paul's epistles). It's quite another to say that the government should get one's possessions and redistribute as it sees fit (that's the socialist model). I think the track record of socialism speaks for itself.

That isn't socialism... That is the capitalist strawman version of socialisim... This world hasn't seen a true socialistic state...

This is primarly for two reasons, 1 limited resources, 2 wickedness of man...

But the Capitalistic nature of our economy has become Me first, everyone else second, and that definatly isn't scriptural whatsoever...

[ICarlson99]

That isn't socialism... That is the capitalist strawman version of socialisim... This world hasn't seen a true socialistic state...

This is primarly for two reasons, 1 limited resources, 2 wickedness of man...

But the Capitalistic nature of our economy has become Me first, everyone else second, and that definatly isn't scriptural whatsoever...

So......you want a socialist society which is impossible to create? What do you mean by socialism then?

Capitalism feeds of the natural self-interest in all business - but the result of competition and efficiency of resources is the best quality of life for all involved. The quality of life of the poor is most definitely a scriptural issue - and capitalism provides the highest quality.

[coldcupofjoe]

So......you want a socialist society which is impossible to create? What do you mean by socialism then?

Capitalism feeds of the natural self-interest in all business - but the result of competition and efficiency of resources is the best quality of life for all involved. The quality of life of the poor is most definitely a scriptural issue - and capitalism provides the highest quality.

When you add fallen man to the equation, yes capitalism is better. If you take the fallen part out of the equation then socialism would be better (completely ignoring the fact that any sort of economic system would be unecesary ;) )

[Gandalf]

When you add fallen man to the equation, yes capitalism is better. If you take the fallen part out of the equation then socialism would be better (completely ignoring the fact that any sort of economic system would be unecesary ;) )
Nah, socialism would still suck; communism would be better in an ideal, non-fallen world, since it's effectively the lack of possession or economy entirely. Capitalism is the only system that works in the real world. Communism is an unattainable ideal that neglects human nature. Socialism is a weird bastard child of the two - it tries to compromise, and ends up neither ideal nor effective.

[coldcupofjoe]

Nah, socialism would still suck; communism would be better in an ideal, non-fallen world, since it's effectively the lack of possession or economy entirely. Capitalism is the only system that works in the real world. Communism is an unattainable ideal that neglects human nature. Socialism is a weird bastard child of the two - it tries to compromise, and ends up neither ideal nor effective.


Yeah thats true.

[Sam!]

For me what the "Christmas" vs. "Holiday" issues boils down to is this...

If you as the shopper want a retail clerk to say "Merry Christmas" to you instead of "Happy Holidays", then you have to allow for a clerk who is Jewish to wish you a Happy Hannukah or for a Muslim clerk to wish you a happy month of fasting for Ramadan, or someone who is atheistic to simply wish you a happy winter.

If we had a Jewish president, would you be happy if he or she mailed out cards for Passover every year? I would bet the religious right would throw a conniption about it.

If you are demanding that evergreen tree in front of city hall be a Christmas Tree, you have to be OK with having a giant star of david on display instead or in addition to, or some Islamic symbol being hung from a window at the court house.

Let's face it, most Christians simply want everything public to enhance their Western Christian worldview and make life easier.

Let's say Company X asks their employees not to say Merry Christmas for WHATEVER reason, but is run by Christians and supports conservative causes. Let's say Company Y allows the Salvation Army to be outside and permits their employees to use whatever greeting they want, but is known to support causes like the "pro choice" (abortion) and evolution-only movements. Are you going to boycott one? Which? Both?

Are we making too big a deal about it? Should the GOVERNMENT issue a directive forcing retail sales people to use a PC greeting instead of "merry Christmas" then we have crossed a line. But shoot, if I'm not a Christian and I own a store, why should I have my employees wishing you a Merry Christmas? Does that make sense?

[ICarlson99]

The problem is not that people SHOULDN'T be allowed to say Happy Hanukkah or whatever - it's that people SHOULD be allowed to say Merry Christmas without fear of a lawsuit.

[fablov]

I am concerned about our rights as Christians (just as anyone else has rights in this country) slowly disappearing in the name of being "PC". I don't really mind about the "holiday" sales and such. I really became concerned when my mom (a teacher) shared with me that she could not tell the Christmas story to her students. The problem is, she can tell many other stories (like that of Kawanza, Hanukkah, etc) because of their "cultural value". Last I checked, there was vast cultural value in the Christian Christmas story. Just because a group is considered to be a majority in the country, doesn't mean that their culture doesn't need to be told. I am sure there are numbers of children who don't know the real story of Christmas... even if they are "Christian".

~Tracey

[Sam!]

See, that is a problem.

[TLJ]

Lemme ask you this, if it does become politically incorrect, or offensive to acknowledge God/Jesus/Christ/Christianity in this country really change anything? Does that somehow magicly make the bible untrue somehow, or make our individual faith invalid? Does it somehow mean that the Great commission no longer exists?

Are we christians because we live in a supposed Christian Nation?!? Do we carry out the great commission because we have the freedom to? Lemme tell you this, in 33Ad when the church was founded on the Day of Pentacost, Rome was not a Christian Nation, and for a period Christianity had the protections of the Jewish faith, however that did change, and there were times in the first 3 centuries where being a christian would cost you your life. Peter didn't live in a Christian Nation and look at the works he did. He eventualy paid with his life for his faith.

I am not suggesting that we simply ignore the political, but we need to get a grip on ourselves... The United States of America is a secular nation, it is not a theocracy (Rule by judges and a Prophet as was Israel before Saul). When Israel wanted to be ruled by a secular king, God gave them their wishes... If America wants to be ruled by secular law, God will give us our wishes... Sure in the Past we may have been a nation of Godliness, however this nation is still part of the world system, in rebellion against God's order... Most of us have been fortionate to have a country that respects the God Given freedoms that we enjoy, but if that Changes, it should not change us!
I never said anything should change us/does change us/changes the bible/changes the great commission....I don't know where you are coming from with all those questions that have nothing to do with what I said. I said that the political correctness attacks on Christianity concern me. I think that I am appropriate to be concerned.

[jesusnewspaper]

I refuse to sit idoly by and let the governmet CHRISTIANS came up with to turn on us and steal our rights! if aithiests can whine about hearing about creation or christmas then i can whine right back! ive got my own ways of denying them! i have right to freedom of speech assembly press and petition! all of the above of which i can take part in! including the local press! the ACLU can not stand in my way! OR GODS!!!

[jrmitch]

I am concerned about our rights as Christians (just as anyone else has rights in this country) slowly disappearing in the name of being "PC"......~TraceyBut......... ..:)

This is a hard word, and I don't necessarily want to do this.......but obedience dictates that I do so.

What 'rights' do we have as Christians? Not culturally, but Scripturally - what did Jesus model, the Apostles teach, and the early church practice regarding their 'rights'?

I think most of us tend to base what we feel are our supposed 'rights' as a believer in the principles upon which this country was founded and the freedoms expressed in our constitution. However, sometimes in doing so we also lose track of the following:

1. Jesus gave up all of His rights for us, and promised us that we (the church) would be persecuted as He was persecuted.....that we would be hated....and that the day would come when the world would think it was worthwhile to kill those who believed in Him;

2. The Apostles rights were violated to the point of martyrdom. They also clearly taught that we would face discrimination, hostility, and constant conflict for our faith;

3. Between the death of Jesus and the turn of the 3rd century over 7 million believers were executed by Rome for their faith, including many women and children. The early church paid for their faith with their own holocaust;

4. As has been mentioned earlier the church still suffers horribly in places such as China, Manchuria, and India; yet they worship the same Jesus and celebrate both His birth and His lordship in spite of their rights being nonexistent.

I think our 'rights' are primarily based upon one thing: selfishness. After all, we're Americans; don't mess with us or our freedoms, because they're God ordained and we're a nation set apart by God with his special favor......:rolleyes:

I realize this may offend some of you, and for that I apologize, because that's not my intent. But our rights stopped at the foot of the Cross. Jesus is very clear that what He wants from us is an obedient heart willing to serve Him, whether it's comfortable for us or not......whether it's culturally acceptable or not......and whether it's inconvenient for us or not. The Son of God laid down all of His rights on our behalf. Who do we think we are we to demand ours? :(

[jrmitch]

.....so as to get this back on track.

I want to just share a personal observation. Many years ago I went through a brutal 7 year period where something bad happended every holiday season. It culminated in year 6 with the death of my father 3 days before Christmas, then spending Christmas of year 7 homeless in the streets of Denver.

Though I wouldn't wish those experiences on any of you, they forever altered my outlook on the Christmas season to the extent that the gifts and cultural trappings became - and have remained - non essential. Much of what we've incorporated into our Christian observance of the holiday has nothing to do with Jesus, His birth, or the reason He was born in the first place. Let me just gently encourage all to remember that as believers, our focus should remain on the fact that we celebrate a child who was born not so that He could recieve His rights as a man, but so that He could be obedient to the will of His father. He was a child born to die........that's the most important thing that any of us can share during this or any holiday season. Even though our world stresses the material aspect of Christmas over everything else, we can choose to not get caught up in the mindset and values of our culture. The best Christmas gift you can give is to share your faith and apply it in how you live your daily life with those around you - whether it's comfortable or not.

Peace to all/Jim

[Gandalf]

born to die
As are we all.

[middletree]

year 6 with the death of my father 3 days before Christmas,

Your dad died Dec 22? So did mine.

Killed himself, 12-22-2000. (Same day our pregnancy started, BTW.) I had to preach the funeral (Dec 26) because we couldn't find anyone to do it in that small town.

[Pouye]

Who do we think we are we to demand our [rights]? :(


It is not a matter of demanding rights... for you must remember that we are members of a republic. A republic is a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. As Christians our ultimate allegiance is to Christ, but as an American citizen, and a member by birth and participation of this republic, I have obligations. One of my obligations is not to infringe on the obligations of others... or do you disagree?

If you agree, then it is not a matter of MY (or other people's) inherent rights, but rather the responsibility to allow others the freedom to meet their obligations in society and to move upward in a way that does not hinder others in meeting their obligations and upward movement. That is exactly why our government was formed in the United States -- to protect the idea of liberty and justice for all.

I believe that to say that we have no rights is a mistake... for WE are the government in a republic, and therefore we must base our decisions on those things that are important for the good of all.

Let's take reading the Bible as an example. The Bible says this:

Jesus replied, “But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice.” Luke 11:28

As a Christian I have a desire to hear the word of God and to put it into practice. In fact, many people gave their lives so that the Gospel message could be spread and so I could have the Bible in my language. I would say that part of my obligation to God is to read/hear the world of God and put it into practice. This is one way I can move upward in every way.

Because I live in a republic, I have the opportunity to vote for leaders who respect this obligation (to worship God by reading His Word and putting it into practice) and who will protect me from people who would like to oppose me from meeting this obligation to God.

I do believe there are some inherent rights. I believe people have the inherent right to worship God through speech and actions. When Jesus was told to silence the crowds, He said that if those crowds were forcefully silenced, even the stones would cry out.

Liberty is not demanding rights, but protecting the obligations (or rights) of others. That is what law is supposed to be all about. I believe that telling people about Jesus Christ's birth (which is part of the Gospel message) is important to help people understand the Gospel. When my own government elected officials deny me this obligation (for Jesus said for me to go into all the world and preach the Gospel), I have the opportunity (and possibly the obligation) to oppose this inherently faulty (unjust) law by the means of the legal system. It is not fighting for my rights, but fighting to protect my obligations and the obligations of others.

Rock

[Pouye]

Your dad died Dec 22? So did mine.

Killed himself, 12-22-2000. (Same day our pregnancy started, BTW.) I had to preach the funeral (Dec 26) because we couldn't find anyone to do it in that small town.

Wow... :(

Rock

[jrmitch]

Your dad died Dec 22? So did mine.

Killed himself, 12-22-2000. (Same day our pregnancy started, BTW.) I had to preach the funeral (Dec 26) because we couldn't find anyone to do it in that small town.Ouch.....:(

My dad was in a nursing home in Quincy (IL), and I was planning on spending the Christmas of 1985 here in Denver. I was initially told that he'd had a heart attack; however, my mom told me 14 years later that he'd apparently choked to death on a bite of food (due to a recent stroke he had to be spoon fed by an aide) and the nursing home tried to cover it up. My mom had never told me because she didn't feel she had the mental strength to deal with the issue at the time.

Come to think of it, my mom went home to Jesus about a month before you lost your dad. I pray that God will continue to heal your heart regarding the holidays as he continues to heal mine........ ;) :)

[middletree]

I pray that God will continue to heal your heart

Thanks. Not a lot of healing to do here, as I barely knew my dad. It's a shame he didn't get to meet his grandkids, but he kind of brought it on himself.

[ICarlson99]

It is not a matter of demanding rights... for you must remember that we are members of a republic. A republic is a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. As Christians our ultimate allegiance is to Christ, but as an American citizen, and a member by birth and participation of this republic, I have obligations. One of my obligations is not to infringe on the obligations of others... or do you disagree?

If you agree, then it is not a matter of MY (or other people's) inherent rights, but rather the responsibility to allow others the freedom to meet their obligations in society and to move upward in a way that does not hinder others in meeting their obligations and upward movement. That is exactly why our government was formed in the United States -- to protect the idea of liberty and justice for all.

I believe that to say that we have no rights is a mistake... for WE are the government in a republic, and therefore we must base our decisions on those things that are important for the good of all.

Let's take reading the Bible as an example. The Bible says this:

Jesus replied, “But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice.” Luke 11:28

As a Christian I have a desire to hear the word of God and to put it into practice. In fact, many people gave their lives so that the Gospel message could be spread and so I could have the Bible in my language. I would say that part of my obligation to God is to read/hear the world of God and put it into practice. This is one way I can move upward in every way.

Because I live in a republic, I have the opportunity to vote for leaders who respect this obligation (to worship God by reading His Word and putting it into practice) and who will protect me from people who would like to oppose me from meeting this obligation to God.

I do believe there are some inherent rights. I believe people have the inherent right to worship God through speech and actions. When Jesus was told to silence the crowds, He said that if those crowds were forcefully silenced, even the stones would cry out.

Liberty is not demanding rights, but protecting the obligations (or rights) of others. That is what law is supposed to be all about. I believe that telling people about Jesus Christ's birth (which is part of the Gospel message) is important to help people understand the Gospel. When my own government elected officials deny me this obligation (for Jesus said for me to go into all the world and preach the Gospel), I have the opportunity (and possibly the obligation) to oppose this inherently faulty (unjust) law by the means of the legal system. It is not fighting for my rights, but fighting to protect my obligations and the obligations of others.

Rock

Hear Hear!

[ICarlson99]

Thanks. Not a lot of healing to do here, as I barely knew my dad. It's a shame he didn't get to meet his grandkids, but he kind of brought it on himself.

Sorry to hear about that (both that you barely knew him and about his death), but his kid turned out pretty good ;)

[jesusnewspaper]

im sorrry christians are the majority! we not only colonized fouded and made up this counrty for 200 years but are still the large majority in america!

[jrmitch]

It is not a matter of demanding rights... for you must remember that we are members of a republic. A republic is a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. As Christians our ultimate allegiance is to Christ, but as an American citizen, and a member by birth and participation of this republic, I have obligations...... Rock, I certainly can't argue with that (or the rest of your excellent post, which I didn't quote in it's entirety only to conserve space). That's part of why I drew a distinction between our cultural rights as Americans and the biblical viewpoint on how our beliefs are viewed by a world hostile to our faith.

I also apologize if I sounded as though I was trying to be anyone's conscience, because that was certainly not my intent. However, I also firmly believe that many well-intentioned Christians that I know have become so enamored with their cultural freedoms that they're unequipped to deal with conflict and persecution resulting from their faith. Towards that end I offer the following commentary (which I discovered after doing my initial post). I hope I'm not derailing the thread with this, but I feel this article is pertinent to the overall topic of the thread:

http://sierratimes.com/03/11/12/ar_dorothy.htm

Peace to all during the rest of the holidays/Jim ;)

[Pouye]

http://sierratimes.com/03/11/12/ar_dorothy.htm

Peace to all during the rest of the holidays/Jim ;)

Good article. I can see where you are coming from a little better, and the clouds are parting, with sunbeams shining through...

Peace to you,

Rock

[jesusnewspaper]

Sorry if i sounded like i was saying we shouldnt be persecuted and i know we should but please eemember that we did found this nation! the least we can do is defend it for those who come after us! we are not expected to sit passivly by while our enemies destroy our vioce in the world! tell the truth all the way! Cause im actully happy that at last im going home!

[middletree]

Sorry if i sounded like i was saying we shouldnt be persecuted and i know we should but please eemember that we did found this nation! the least we can do is defend it for those who come after us! we are not expected to sit passivly by while our enemies destroy our vioce in the world! tell the truth all the way! Cause im actully happy that at last im going home!
I have no problem with defending spiritual truths about Christianity any way I have to, if God calls me to. However, we are never commanded by God to celebrate it. It's a man-made holiday, so I cannot conclude that God wants me to defend it any more than He want me to defend football. To say that we must defend Christmas is tying that holiday together with biblical Christianity in ways that are not warranted. It's as if we all got together and decided that Christians should consider popcorn to be holy, then got offended if someone dissed popcorn.

[jesusnewspaper]

no its not anything like popcorn but i know man made it and i get your piont but i still defend the thought that we should at least be aloud to keep our traditions including saying merry christmas!

[middletree]

no its not anything like popcorn but i know man made it and i get your piont but i still defend the thought that we should at least be aloud to keep our traditions including saying merry christmas!


You are still allowed to say Merry Christmas. The ones that Dobson and Falweel are whining about are stores such as Target. They are private companies, and certainly allowed to avoid saying Christmas if they choose.

[jesusnewspaper]

know that still dont like it!

[ICarlson99]

You are still allowed to say Merry Christmas. The ones that Dobson and Falweel are whining about are stores such as Target. They are private companies, and certainly allowed to avoid saying Christmas if they choose.

And Dobson and Falwell are certainly allowed to tell people to avoid Target ;)

Not that I'm going to....

[middletree]

And Dobson and Falwell are certainly allowed to tell people to avoid Target ;)

Exactly. They are allowed to do so. In this country, our freedom of speech and religion have not been taken away, yet many who complain about the holiday vs. Christmas thing seem to take it as if the govt is telling us we have to stop being Christians.