Weeping statues

[NotMyOwn]

What do you think about these sorts of things?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051127/ap_on_re_us/statue_s_tears

[Aenon]

What do you think about these sorts of things?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051127/ap_on_re_us/statue_s_tears

I am not sure what I think about these occurances. I know that we are not to worship statues and idols. I will have to think about it???? I do believe in miracles. God is a God of miracles.

[mercyGurl]

Reminds me of Frank Peretti's book "The Visitation"

[Howlin' Wolf]

i dont buy it all. if anything, its demonic, because it takes the focus off of christ and onto the statue. i am also inclined to believe in a God that will provide miracles of substance and practicality. there is nothing practical about a statue that cries or stigmata for that matter.

[Trillamum]

Reminds me of Frank Peretti's book "The Visitation"
In which if I'm not mistaken everything turned out to be either faked or demonic...I tend to shy away from such things, yes, God is a God of miracles, but, He's also a God of purpose, why make a statue weep like that, it does no one any good, and distracts alot of people from ways that they could be pursuing God and working for Him. Not saying it's definitely not, I just tend to disbelieve it. Besides, most cases of them have been disproven.

[Aenon]

i dont buy it all. if anything, its demonic, because it takes the focus off of christ and onto the statue. i am also inclined to believe in a God that will provide miracles of substance and practicality. there is nothing practical about a statue that cries or stigmata for that matter.

Yeah, I think I agree. It does take the focus off of Christ. Why would God want thousands of people bowing down some statue? Maybe it is a deception.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yeah, I think I agree. It does take the focus off of Christ. Why would God want thousands of people bowing down some statue? Maybe it is a deception.

all of Jesus' miracles served a purpose. he healed, he fed, he calmed storms, he resurrected, so on and so forth

i echo trillamum...God is a God of purpose. a weeping statue in a church that doesnt teach fundamental orthodox doctrine serves zero purpose

[Aenon]

yeah, Satan wants to be worshipped. It is what he has always wanted. If he can get people bowing down to some statue...he gets what he wants.

[GuitarMan2387]

i dont buy it all. if anything, its demonic, because it takes the focus off of christ and onto the statue. i am also inclined to believe in a God that will provide miracles of substance and practicality. there is nothing practical about a statue that cries or stigmata for that matter.

yes because we definatly know how God works and everything. If he wanted statues to cry, why not? You have no place to say its bad, it turn others attention to the greatness of God.

I think it best not to comdemn something unless it is known for a fact that something is evil.

[draw627]

I have a couple of thoughts, first one is... it is a very strange occurrence and maybe someone drilled holes in the statue, put tubes in, and connected some kind of pump w/red substance in it :D . really now, God used a donkey to speak to get the attention of Paul, who says he can't use a statue to cry red to get people's attention :confused: I don't know, but if people are worshipping this statue, they better get on their faces and repent fast, God doesn't take idolizing lightly.

[GuitarMan2387]

agreed. worshipping the statue would be bad. very bad. But it can serve as some kind of reminder to people.

[Howlin' Wolf]

yes because we definatly know how God works and everything. If he wanted statues to cry, why not? You have no place to say its bad, it turn others attention to the greatness of God.

I think it best not to comdemn something unless it is known for a fact that something is evil.
when you acknowledge the authority of scripture over the church, then we'll talk

[Col. Mustard]

hmmmmm....
very interesting. i don't know.
anyone c 'catogory 7'? it was on a couple weeks ago. kinda reminds me of it.
i don know, if people take it as a sign, maybe its because god wanted them to. if you think into it deep enough, maybe theres one person, a lost sheep, who is turning away, and God had this happen just to save that lost sheep. anyone follow me on this? there could be some type of reason for this to happen. guess we'll just never know though. :confused: ;)

[GuitarMan2387]

when you acknowledge the authority of scripture over the church, then we'll talk

until you realize that they are equal nothing more can be said. :cool:

[fiddlefool]

any of you remember this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4034787.stm

[Godgrl Gomer]

This kind of thing is certainly of Satan. Very few may be drawn to God. And remember God uses ALL things to His good will and purpose. However what weeping statues do is bring attention to the statue itself and who it is representing - Mary. Thus people come to see the statue and pray and want to touch it because it is seen as divine or holy. Then people start their 'hail Mary's" - which is also a sin in itself.
We are to worship Jesus and Jesus only. (Well yeh the Trinity) Mary was not divine. She was obediant. She is not holy. Only God is holy.
Satan is very good at mimicking. He will show a road that looks like it is leading to the kingdom of God when in fact it does not. Many will be fooled by these events of statues. They flock to the Catholic church and start worshipping. Problem is that they don't worship Jesus, they start to worship Mary.

[Criada Kitty]

any of you remember this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4034787.stm


Was I the only one temporarily spending a lot of time looking closely at my food for a little while after that?

Man, I could really use $20,000+ to pay off those student loans.... :D

[Criada Kitty]

This kind of thing is certainly of Satan. Very few may be drawn to God. And remember God uses ALL things to His good will and purpose. However what weeping statues do is bring attention to the statue itself and who it is representing - Mary. Thus people come to see the statue and pray and want to touch it because it is seen as divine or holy. Then people start their 'hail Mary's" - which is also a sin in itself.
We are to worship Jesus and Jesus only. (Well yeh the Trinity) Mary was not divine. She was obediant. She is not holy. Only God is holy.
Satan is very good at mimicking. He will show a road that looks like it is leading to the kingdom of God when in fact it does not. Many will be fooled by these events of statues. They flock to the Catholic church and start worshipping. Problem is that they don't worship Jesus, they start to worship Mary.

A Catholic friend of mine explained it like this...

They consider the saints a little like senators. They have just a little power in themselves due to the things they've done/sacrificed in their lives, but their real power is that they were honored and therefore "closer" to Jesus. Jesus is busy, having millions of "children" around the world. you go and talk to the senator that "specializes" in your situation/area to try to intercede on your behalf. Sort of like saying, "Aunt louise, you're mama's favorite sister and she loved ya so much...you understand my love for music, as you were a musician yourself...mama's so busy, can you quickly ask her, using your persuasive abilities, to see if she'd help me contact this guy about a record deal?"

weird, but it helped me a little understand what's going on with the patron saints. That and a class in mythology.

[Howlin' Wolf]

A Catholic friend of mine explained it like this...

They consider the saints a little like senators. They have just a little power in themselves due to the things they've done/sacrificed in their lives, but their real power is that they were honored and therefore "closer" to Jesus. Jesus is busy, having millions of "children" around the world. you go and talk to the senator that "specializes" in your situation/area to try to intercede on your behalf. Sort of like saying, "Aunt louise, you're mama's favorite sister and she loved ya so much...you understand my love for music, as you were a musician yourself...mama's so busy, can you quickly ask her, using your persuasive abilities, to see if she'd help me contact this guy about a record deal?"

weird, but it helped me a little understand what's going on with the patron saints. That and a class in mythology.
nice to know that their god gets busy and needs a little help. makes them lose even more credibility with me

[Criada Kitty]

ouch. that sounded a bit harsh.

I'm not condemning nor condoning that belief. I can see their point - it makes sense, considering the more "human" aspect of Jesus and forgetting about his sovereignty. sometimes it feels that way, too...when you feel like your prayers aren't being answered, it's easy to think of Jesus as just another human and that you need a little "credibility" with your "connections". I can see where they are coming from...I don't buy it, but I'm not going to be slamming it in their face, either. that's not my style.

[Howlin' Wolf]

ouch. that sounded a bit harsh.

I'm not condemning nor condoning that belief. I can see their point - it makes sense, considering the more "human" aspect of Jesus and forgetting about his sovereignty. sometimes it feels that way, too...when you feel like your prayers aren't being answered, it's easy to think of Jesus as just another human and that you need a little "credibility" with your "connections". I can see where they are coming from...I don't buy it, but I'm not going to be slamming it in their face, either. that's not my style.
thats the problem...our feelings will only lead us to damnation. our hearts are liars. we have to stand on the authority of scripture. catholics stand on the authority of the church, an institution ran by sinful men. scripture, however doesnt fail man. man fails scripture

[Criada Kitty]

thats the problem...our feelings will only lead us to damnation. our hearts are liars. we have to stand on the authority of scripture. catholics stand on the authority of the church, an institution ran by sinful men. scripture, however doesnt fail man. man fails scripture


Whoah...little confused here. Why are we suddenly condemning Catholics? Are they or are they not our brothers and sisters in Christ? I may pull my older sis' hair now and then, but I don't condemn her to Hell like your statment sounds. Oh, and aren't ALL churches run by sinful men, if you think of it, as all of them are run by humans, last I checked...

Yeah, and I expect myself to fail scripture. I'm human. The difference is that God picks me back up and says, "That's ok, I've already paid for it. try again." It's a comforting picture, don't you think?

I also have a hard time buying the whole "you can't trust your emotions." God gave me my emotions for a reason. I know they are human, just like the rest of me, but I think my emotions can be useful, pleasing, and Godlike - after all, didn't He command us to be LOVING? I believe that's an emotional reference...

[Howlin' Wolf]

Whoah...little confused here. Why are we suddenly condemning Catholics? Are they or are they not our brothers and sisters in Christ? I may pull my older sis' hair now and then, but I don't condemn her to Hell like your statment sounds. Oh, and aren't ALL churches run by sinful men, if you think of it, as all of them are run by humans, last I checked...

Yeah, and I expect myself to fail scripture. I'm human. The difference is that God picks me back up and says, "That's ok, I've already paid for it. try again." It's a comforting picture, don't you think?

I also have a hard time buying the whole "you can't trust your emotions." God gave me my emotions for a reason. I know they are human, just like the rest of me, but I think my emotions can be useful, pleasing, and Godlike - after all, didn't He command us to be LOVING? I believe that's an emotional reference...
catholics deny salvation by grace through faith. they believe that scripture is errant. they believe in works based salvation....so you tell me, if they should be considered our brothers in the Lord

and just because protestant churches are run by sinful men isnt the same. prostestant churches stand on the authority of scripture. they dont place their own authority above scripture.

[Healing Oil]

I think it best not to comdemn something unless it is known for a fact that something is evil.
Like contraception?

Ill echo some here as well, I dont buy it as well. I like the "drilled holes with tubes" theory :)

[Healing Oil]

Whoah...little confused here. Why are we suddenly condemning Catholics? Are they or are they not our brothers and sisters in Christ? I may pull my older sis' hair now and then, but I don't condemn her to Hell like your statment sounds. Oh, and aren't ALL churches run by sinful men, if you think of it, as all of them are run by humans, last I checked...

Yeah, and I expect myself to fail scripture. I'm human. The difference is that God picks me back up and says, "That's ok, I've already paid for it. try again." It's a comforting picture, don't you think?

I also have a hard time buying the whole "you can't trust your emotions." God gave me my emotions for a reason. I know they are human, just like the rest of me, but I think my emotions can be useful, pleasing, and Godlike - after all, didn't He command us to be LOVING? I believe that's an emotional reference...All it is really is a complete difference in spiritual theology. I don't believe Jesus is too busy for me, or you, or anyone. I don't believe that He has hired help. I don't believe in requesting forgiveness from a human, unless Ive sinned against them. I dont believe Mary was holy, just obedient, as you said. I dont know everything the Catholic church is about, but what I do know, I dont believe in and/or agree. Tulip's frustration isnt completely without warrent.

Are they my brothers and sisters in Christ? I hope so. But as far as Ive been told and can tell, they dont consider us the same (Christians).

What was this thread about again? Like you, Im not here to play the "whose better" game.

[Howlin' Wolf]

All it is really is a complete difference in spiritual theology. I don't believe Jesus is too busy for me, or you, or anyone. I don't believe that He has hired help. I don't believe in requesting forgiveness from a human, unless Ive sinned against them. I dont believe Mary was holy, just obedient, as you said. I dont know everything the Catholic church is about, but what I do know, I dont believe in and/or agree. Tulip's frustration isnt completely without warrent.

Are they my brothers and sisters in Christ? I hope so. But as far as Ive been told and can tell, they dont consider us the same (Christians).

What was this thread about again? Like you, Im not here to play the "whose better" game.

you make me smile everytime i read your posts

[Criada Kitty]

All it is really is a complete difference in spiritual theology. I don't believe Jesus is too busy for me, or you, or anyone. I don't believe that He has hired help. I don't believe in requesting forgiveness from a human, unless Ive sinned against them. I dont believe Mary was holy, just obedient, as you said. I dont know everything the Catholic church is about, but what I do know, I dont believe in and/or agree. Tulip's frustration isnt completely without warrent.

Are they my brothers and sisters in Christ? I hope so. But as far as Ive been told and can tell, they dont consider us the same (Christians).

What was this thread about again? Like you, Im not here to play the "whose better" game.

Very good point - I feel very much the same...everyone is allowed to be frustrated, but the lines of communication seemed to have gotten a little crossed between us. Maybe i read wrong...maybe I didn't. Either way, I have close friends who are Catholic, I definitely am not Catholic, and I believe that we will all be in Heaven someday as we all believe the same basics of salvation - maybe that makes them the "non-typical" Catholics, but that's just my experience with these girls.

I'm not trying to say anyone is better than anyone else - even Jesus pointed that out. I just hate it when a group is typified and condemned based on stereotypes and assumptions. Trust me, not all Germans were Nazis, not all Chinese are communists, and not all Catholics are not Christians.

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say, and clears up any offenses I may have made.

[GuitarMan2387]

catholics deny salvation by grace through faith. they believe that scripture is errant. they believe in works based salvation....so you tell me, if they should be considered our brothers in the Lord

and just because protestant churches are run by sinful men isnt the same. prostestant churches stand on the authority of scripture. they dont place their own authority above scripture.

Hmmm... if we belived exactly what you just said, i think something would be outa line.

We are saved by faith, but our faith is defined by the good works that we do. So in itself you could say that since faith without works is dead. Good works are neccessary.

We do not deny that salvation is through faith. Salvation definatly has to do with faith.

We also do not believe scripture is errant. I don't know where your getting this, but scripture is the word of God, God cannot be wrong, therefore scripture is not errant.

I find it also strange that you say that we place tradition above scripture. That is not true at all they are considered equal. And by tradition I am referring to the Pope's office and official dogma of the catholic faith that was translated and completed after the death of the Apostles.

Unfortunately everything you just said is completly wrong. Until you can get the facts straight and actually attack doctrine that we actually teach, please stop making rash comments.

I would be happy to discuss things that we actually believe rather than pointing out that we don't teach what you say we do.

Again, why all the bashing?

[Stinky Sam]

catholics deny salvation by grace through faith. they believe that scripture is errant. they believe in works based salvation....so you tell me, if they should be considered our brothers in the Lord

and just because protestant churches are run by sinful men isnt the same. prostestant churches stand on the authority of scripture. they dont place their own authority above scripture.

I shall avoid repeating what Guitarman has pointed out about the validity of your accusations against the Catholic Church, i want to make a point about the second paragraph your wrote.

So, because protestant churches stand on the authority of scripture, and not their own they are okay in your book. If, as you have said, these men are sinful, if, as you have said, our hearts are liars. How can I trust a Pastor's interpretation of scripture? Scripture, in many instances, is not black and white, therefore, to interpret it, Protestant churches, in fact, have no choice but to use their own authority over some abitrary 'scriptural authority'.

Sure, your pastor doesn't say his interpretation is the sole authority, but if he is prepared to get up and preach about a passage in the bible, he is implying that very thing. The idea of pure 'sola scriptura', because of literary differences, cultural differences and simple personality differences, is an impossibility. Again, if our hearts are liars and we are sinful, how the heck are we meant to interpret scripture ourselves?

Okay, so we rely on the Holy Spirit. But then, how can my sinful and lying heart discern if a prompting is really the Holy Spirt, not my intellect, my flesh, a demon, or a tradition?

When it comes down to it, a protestant must rely on the authority of someone (themselves, their pastor, a friend, anyone) when interpreting scripture.

It saddens me greatly that you can throw out such falsities against the Catholic Church, without any backup, nor with even a valid defense of your own interpretation of the faith. Visit http://www.catholic.com for more information, if you are truly interested in seeking the truth about the Catholic Church, if not, feel free to keep on bashing away.

[Grank]

GO CATHOLICISM!! I mean... you know... other than that whole heliocentric misunderstanding... oh yeah, and that part where y'all killed a bunch of ppl for God... and i guess I almost forgot those couple of times you combined a few pagan celebrations with some holidays to appease recently conquered natives... well, there is that part where it says Jesus is my intercessor too, but He could always use some help right? Other than that i mean, you know... GO CATHOLICISM!!!

[Gandalf]

i am also inclined to believe in a God that will provide miracles of substance and practicality. there is nothing practical about a statue that cries or stigmata for that matter.
This I generally sympathize with. God certainly heals people, etc. I don't see how making a statue cry would help a person, either spiritually or physically, so I'm inclined to be skeptical. As often as not, it's discovered how some optical illusion (trick of the light) or other natural phenomenon (condensation due to temperature changes, etc) causes such apparitions. I won't discount that God could do such things, however. And in one sense, if it happens, God was responsible for it - He is soveriegn. But, I generally doubt that most such events are because of God's supernatural intervention rather than the nature of what He's created.

I don't see how doing these things would be much more productive to a demon than to God - it may draw the attention to some particular dead saint for a time, but people who are drawn to the Church (whatever portion of it - Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc) will more likely encounter God than those who are oblivious and pay no attention to it. Not many such statues lead many people directly into idolatry (though some do). So, while it's possible that such things could be demonic, I suppose, I don't think assuming the enemy is always responsible is any more rational than assuming it's always a direct act of God.

[Healing Oil]

you make me smile everytime i read your postsYay for me :)

Criatta- I didnt take your post the wrong way, and I understood it. I take Catholicism pretty seriously. My brother-in-law's side of the family is Catholic and my sister and my side are not. My sister and her husband are at a cross roads as to how to raise my nephew. My sister's mother-in-law wants to take him to her church, but she wants him to go to a Christian church. My bro-in-law doesnt know what to deside because he is not a practicing Catholic, and my sister is hardly a practicing Christian. They just both know they want my nephew in church.

So it is difficult because I do not want my nephew growing up on some of the things Ive learned about the CC, naturally. To me, what it really boils down to is your personal relationship between God. Not what traditions you follow, or how you conduct your life through grey areas.

[Pouye]

I've always found this famous bleeding and weeping statue to be interesting because it was actually subjected to scientific scrutiny and the test results were conclusive.

Bleeding Statue (http://www.visionsofjesuschrist. com/weeping68.htm)

I don't believe everything I see on TV, btw. However, the interesting thing about this statue is something not natural is happening, since it truly bleeds human blood with human DNA. The interesting part is that the blood, when analyzed, was female blood. That makes sense, being that Jesus did not have a truly earthly Father. Something is happening with this statue that cannot be chalked up as simply condensation or tubes with a pump.

So what does it mean? I don't know. This one will go in my "Ask God when I see Him" file (which is getting thicker by the day).

Rock

[GuitarMan2387]

yea there is some cool stuff like that, i think that the blood coming from the staue would be female because it would be mary's, however i dont know if they've tested it.

Also with the Eucharist, there have been instances where it has turned into real human flesh and blood.

Scientists anaylsed it and determined it was human heart tissue, that it was approximatly 2000 years old, and that the blood type was AB, the universal reciever type.

Interesting. Real. And proven. I'll have to search for some sources.

[HotWireD]

I've always found this famous bleeding and weeping statue to be interesting because it was actually subjected to scientific scrutiny and the test results were conclusive.

Bleeding Statue (http://www.visionsofjesuschrist. com/weeping68.htm)

I don't believe everything I see on TV, btw. However, the interesting thing about this statue is something not natural is happening, since it truly bleeds human blood with human DNA. The interesting part is that the blood, when analyzed, was female blood. That makes sense, being that Jesus did not have a truly earthly Father. Something is happening with this statue that cannot be chalked up as simply condensation or tubes with a pump.
Rock

There have been a number of cases recently where religious relics have been examined by the scientific community and found the statement of the priests to be slightly less than 'fallible'. When one result showed the red powder that turns into a liquid was not blood, the church in question just said that the scientists were wrong and that they were going to continue to bring the 'Holy Relic' out every year for the local people (and the thousands that also visit) to see.

yea there is some cool stuff like that, i think that the blood coming from the staue would be female because it would be mary's, however i dont know if they've tested it.

Also with the Eucharist, there have been instances where it has turned into real human flesh and blood.

Scientists anaylsed it and determined it was human heart tissue, that it was approximatly 2000 years old, and that the blood type was AB, the universal reciever type.

Interesting. Real. And proven. I'll have to search for some sources.

I would love some sources. I have worked in forensic recovery and analysis of chemical and biological material for 23 years.
We often get articles of interest about analysis of 'unusual' samples and have yet to see any evidence that has stood up to scrutiny.

I am not saying your statement is inaccurate, just that i follow these items very carefully and have yet to see any result that is as conclusive as your anecdote about the Eucharist.

Just out of curiosity, how many chromosomes did the blood have? I'm serious.

And about the whole weeping statue thing, I personally do not hold with Mary being a queen in heaven, sinless, or even that she stayed a virgin her whole life. But that's been bantered back and forth a dozen times. I say that to say this, I'm skeptical by default of things of this nature. In my humble opinion, a parishioner got bored, pricked his/her finger and dripped blood on the statue's eyes.

I have however, read articles that have concluded that a member of the church has 'created' the effect. Whether they have done this to trick people, or because they truly believe that their falsifications will bring people closer to their faith is another matter of debate.

Personally, I agree with malletKAT. People play around with other people's faith, which is acruel thing to do to people who truly believe.

I cannot understand why people need these relics to reinforce their faith. Praying to graven images, whether they cry real blood, fake blood, or no blood at all seems quite strange to me. Who needs a statue or a saint to communicate with Jesus. Is it not possible to 'go direct'?

A Catholic friend of mine explained it like this...

They consider the saints a little like senators. They have just a little power in themselves due to the things they've done/sacrificed in their lives, but their real power is that they were honored and therefore "closer" to Jesus. Jesus is busy, having millions of "children" around the world. you go and talk to the senator that "specializes" in your situation/area to try to intercede on your behalf. Sort of like saying, "Aunt louise, you're mama's favorite sister and she loved ya so much...you understand my love for music, as you were a musician yourself...mama's so busy, can you quickly ask her, using your persuasive abilities, to see if she'd help me contact this guy about a record deal?"

Weird, but it helped me a little understand what's going on with the patron saints. That and a class in mythology.

I agree that it is weird. I also cannot accept that these saints are 'closer' to Jesus than any other Christian. Sounds a little like spiritualism - getting someone else. living or dead, to intercede with Jesus for you.

Thank you, Criada Kitty, at least now I have an idea of the Catholic perspective. I did not know that was how they saw saints before your post.

[GuitarMan2387]

The Catholic perspective on Saints interceding for us:

The Saints are in Heaven with Christ and can hear our prayers. If we ask them to pray or intercede for us, it would be no different from me asking you to pray for me. Since we are all part of the communion of saints, we can all pray for each other as one body. Sure we can go directly to Christ, but why not go to Him and have others do the same as well?

hope this clears some stuff up, know to find those sources.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

check that out.

[GuitarMan2387]

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

that ones pretty sweet.

[HotWireD]

The Catholic perspective on Saints interceding for us:

The Saints are in Heaven with Christ and can hear our prayers. If we ask them to pray or intercede for us, it would be no different from me asking you to pray for me. Since we are all part of the communion of saints, we can all pray for each other as one body. Sure we can go directly to Christ, but why not go to Him and have others do the same as well?

hope this clears some stuff up, know to find those sources.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

check that out.


http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

that ones pretty sweet.

Cheers for those GuitarMan. :D

[GuitarMan2387]

lol so what do u think?

[HotWireD]

lol so what do u think?

Lol, not finished reading yet.

[HotWireD]

lol so what do u think?

Lots of stuff to read....

I am not (and I hope it was clear) saying that these sort of miraclesa do not occur. I am just still waiting for the evidence so I can study it myself.

You have given me a lot to read and reference. lol.

The host becoming heart reference does not convince me. Yes, I can agree with the findings of the scientists, it is heart and blood material. It would be nice if the histological specimen pictures could be enlarged. I still remember all my biology, and have (when I was much younger) dissected hearts and produced slides from them. As to if it is 'holy flesh' or part the woman 12 centuries ago who coughed it up is another matter. <still reading, still (I hope) open minded>

And... lots more to study to go. Thanks.

[GuitarMan2387]

no no man, its not a women, it is christ's flesh and blood.

[HotWireD]

no no man, its not a women, it is christ's flesh and blood.

I can accept it is flesh and blood, even thousand year old flesh and blood, my apologies but I am not convinced of who's flesh and blood it is.

The unleavened bread staying fresh for 250 years is impressive. I can think of a scientific explanation for them staying intact, but it would be highly unlikely that even under the most perfect conditions available in the last 12 centuries for them to have stayed fresh, without some assistance, either 'from high' or a succession of clever people who had scientific knowledge that was not around in those times. So that one has me stumped.

Cheers, :)

[GuitarMan2387]

yea that ones pretty cool too, haha they are all nice. I love God he rocks.

[ObiShawn]

The Catholic perspective on Saints interceding for us:

The Saints are in Heaven with Christ and can hear our prayers. If we ask them to pray or intercede for us, it would be no different from me asking you to pray for me. Since we are all part of the communion of saints, we can all pray for each other as one body. Sure we can go directly to Christ, but why not go to Him and have others do the same as well?I understand that to be the tradition, but can you show me where scripture supports this? The Word says in many places that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us, but no where have I seen anything referring to dead saints making intercession for us, or even us asking them to pray for us.

[Stinky Sam]

GO CATHOLICISM!! I mean... you know... other than that whole heliocentric misunderstanding... oh yeah, and that part where y'all killed a bunch of ppl for God... and i guess I almost forgot those couple of times you combined a few pagan celebrations with some holidays to appease recently conquered natives... well, there is that part where it says Jesus is my intercessor too, but He could always use some help right? Other than that i mean, you know... GO CATHOLICISM!!!

You've convinced me. That is it. I am not going to be Catholic anymore. The research and evidence you've supplied to back these statements up make me wish i had thought this whole Catholic thing through a lot earlier. I can't belive how blind i was.

Then again.

Perhaps not.

This just proves more clearly that the majority of Protestants aren't even remotely interested in actually seeking the truth about Catholicism, and makes me more and more pleased that i am a Catholic.

[ObiShawn]

This just proves more clearly that the majority of Protestants aren't even remotely interested in actually seeking the truth about Catholicism, and makes me more and more pleased that i am a Catholic.Then maybe you missed my post:


The Catholic perspective on Saints interceding for us:

The Saints are in Heaven with Christ and can hear our prayers. If we ask them to pray or intercede for us, it would be no different from me asking you to pray for me. Since we are all part of the communion of saints, we can all pray for each other as one body. Sure we can go directly to Christ, but why not go to Him and have others do the same as well?

I understand that to be the tradition, but can you show me where scripture supports this? The Word says in many places that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us, but no where have I seen anything referring to dead saints making intercession for us, or even us asking them to pray for us.

[Grank]

I understand that to be the tradition, but can you show me where scripture supports this? The Word says in many places that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us, but no where have I seen anything referring to dead saints making intercession for us, or even us asking them to pray for us.
they get that from revelations where it talks about the saints in heaven offering up the insence that represents our prayers to God

[Grank]

You've convinced me. That is it. I am not going to be Catholic anymore. The research and evidence you've supplied to back these statements up make me wish i had thought this whole Catholic thing through a lot earlier. I can't belive how blind i was.

Then again.

Perhaps not.

This just proves more clearly that the majority of Protestants aren't even remotely interested in actually seeking the truth about Catholicism, and makes me more and more pleased that i am a Catholic.

and by the way, i know quite a bit about catholicism...all i did was state facts

[Drummermomgomer]

God has worked in so many ways people consider foolishness. People have bowed down to angels and to God's chosen people. They, as God's true servants, have said, "Don't worship me." It is in my opinion that if someone goes to see this statue looking for God and they pray and seek God with all of their hearts, they will find him. Once I was in Honduras and went into an amazing huge beautiful church. They had this incredible and nearly life-sized statue of Jesus (among other statues) hanging on the cross, bloody and all. The second I saw it I was gripped with the reality of the suffering of Jesus and I knelt on the padded prayer bench they had in front of it and started to pray, but I kept looking up at the statue. It may have been a catalyst for some to see the suffering of our Savior. The longer I stared at it, the more it seemed to be breathing. And then I wasn't praying anymore. So I went outside the church to pray. As people we are so visual. I am certain nothing was actually happening and it was just my imagination....I was an on-fire teen Christian and my eyes deceived me. But when people have something like an "engraved image" in front of them, it's hard to concentrate on worshipping God "in Spirit and in truth." I think it's better to be safe and extra careful not to break the 2nd Commandment, but if an unbeliever who doesn't understand scripture sees something like that and goes home and seeks God out, then I believe God can turn that which was meant for harm into good.