Ac/dc?

[abbershay]

I was looking at the picutures and one of the guys was wearing an Acdc ball cap . Whats with that? Is this the heathen band acdc that sings about their trip down the highway to hell or something else?


Kinda curious....

[middletree]

I was looking at the picutures and one of the guys was wearing an Acdc ball cap . Whats with that? Is this the heathen band acdc that sings about their trip down the highway to hell or something else?


Kinda curious....
Yeah, they played some Led Zepplin in concert last year and I complained a little. I'm personally not comfortable with it, but whattya do? The men in Third Day are strong believers who hear the voice of God, and if He wanted to convict them on it, I guess He'd do that.

[sandie]

Yes, you're talking about Acca Dacca, an iconic Australian Rock Band.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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AC/DC

Years active 1973–present
Origin Australia
Genre(s) Hard rock

AC/DC is an Australian hard rock band. The group formed in Sydney, Australia in December, 1973. Their albums have sold in colossal numbers, the total now being estimated at well in excess of 140 million copies worldwide (http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-best-selling-music-artists), with the 1980 album Back in Black among the ten top-selling albums ever made. The band has had two distinctive lead singers, and its fans tend to divide its history into the "Bon Scott era (1974–80)" and the "Brian Johnson era (1980–present)".

Although the group are generally considered to be a pioneer of hard rock and heavy metal music, the members have always referred to their music as rock 'n' roll. Their music is blues-based with a higher level of distortion in the lead and rhythm guitars. Overall, AC/DC is the most successful and well-known rock band, and probably band of any genre, to hail from Australia.

Sandra.

[abbershay]

I used to listen to them all the time , Now that i know better i cant believe i did it.

Hit albums are highway to hell, back in black, dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

One of the big hits is hells bells. They are clearly satanic .

[DareDevil]

AC/DC are not a satanistical band... though I am afraid that they might have met one "bible basher" too many. Combine that with a general non conformistic attitude and you get a rock band that will find it funny to sing EXACTLY about what will offend those "bible bashers". They do it because they CAN no matter what others want them to do and not because they necessarily believe in satan. I'd say that you can compare this with smokers who will always lit a cigarette whenever somebody tells them that smoking is bad.

But back to the music thing...
The Hells Bells album has been mentioned here too and I would like to remind you of the time it was written in, i.e. in 1980. If I get this right then the late 70s and early 80s were marked by public record burnings of so called "satanic" albums, general preachings against the evils of Heavy Metal and Hard Rock in the churches and a general "backward masking" hysteria. Loads of Christians wanted to tell people that they are neither allowed to listen nor to write Rock stuff. ACDC and also other bands reacted with a lot of devil's stuff in their songs upon this. They did not do it because they believe in satan, they did it because they wanted to show "those Christians" that they CAN write such music and that there is nothing that they can do against it.

One should not think though that this drove bands like ACDC into REAL satansim. To be honest, I think that bands like ACDC took/take the whole thing much less seriously than their "Christian" counterparts and that it is nothing ideological for them. It is even possible that a lot of people like ACDC have a lot of respect for Christians who try to reach out with others in a loving and brotherly way.

I mean, I have never met the guys from ACDC but I have encountered that attitude a LOT in the Metal scene. There are a lot of people there who would react with a "Hail Satan!" when you give them the feeling that you want to (spiritually) boss them around. The problem there is not the different attitude/faith though. The problem there is the lack of respect upon which most Metalfans will still react in a rather "annoyed" way. If you treat them with respect in a loving way then there is a fair chance that they'll listen, if you don't then you'll get a rather aggressive reply. Unfortunately it is also true that this can be difficult for people who are not into the scene. The way you come across can really differ a lot from the way you actually want to come across. That is also why I think that even a loving Christian shouldn't be too hard on himself when he finds out that he does not click with such people from the rock or Metal scene. Sometimes it is simply better to humbly trust God to use somebody else to do the preaching.

Now, when it comes to the question whether a Christian should listen to such music or not then I must say that the answer to this question will vary from person to person and that one has to trust the holy spirit there.

[Grank]

One of the big hits is hells bells. They are clearly satanic .

wow, zepplin wrote stairway to heaven. they are clearly christian...

[middletree]

AC/DC are not a satanistical band...

That is so not a word.

I didn't mean that the men themselves were satanic. That doesn't matter. What matters is what the songs say. You don't take the men home, you take their songs home and play them and sing along.

[larryl]

wow, zepplin wrote stairway to heaven. they are clearly christian...


fantastic.

i am too tired to climb up on this soapbox right now, but this post pretty much sums it up....

i will also say this...among most christian bands, you will find fans of secular bands.

[middletree]

I am a huge fan of secular music, but as a Christian, I have problems with Led Zep, and that song is one of the strongest reasons.

[Kyle's dad]

I was looking at the picutures and one of the guys was wearing an Acdc ball cap . Whats with that? Is this the heathen band acdc that sings about their trip down the highway to hell or something else?


Kinda curious....

Did you just say heathen band? :rolleyes:

[lilmikey]

My dad was talkin with me and I totally agree with him. The devil knows how to use words like heaven and God even Jesus oops! did I say that. Music is such a tool it can be used in a right way and a wrong way. Just because a band says heaven or God in their song does not mean they are christian

I agree that AC/DC is as Satanic as they come I dont care what anybody says I am very careful of the music I listen too, even when it comes to "Christian" music. I like Third Day because they dont hide their message like some do. Even my Dad likes em that tells ya something! LOL

[abbershay]

It would be funny if it wasnt so sad. You dont have to wonder they dont hide.

Their job on earth is to party and raise hell ......

Now as for led zeplin highway to heaven i am not sure but isnt that a song obout getting so high on drugs you kill yourself?

[sherri]

AC/DC are not a satanistical band... though I am afraid that they might have met one "bible basher" too many. Combine that with a general non conformistic attitude and you get a rock band that will find it funny to sing EXACTLY about what will offend those "bible bashers". They do it because they CAN no matter what others want them to do and not because they necessarily believe in satan. I'd say that you can compare this with smokers who will always lit a cigarette whenever somebody tells them that smoking is bad.

But back to the music thing...
The Hells Bells album has been mentioned here too and I would like to remind you of the time it was written in, i.e. in 1980. If I get this right then the late 70s and early 80s were marked by public record burnings of so called "satanic" albums, general preachings against the evils of Heavy Metal and Hard Rock in the churches and a general "backward masking" hysteria. Loads of Christians wanted to tell people that they are neither allowed to listen nor to write Rock stuff. ACDC and also other bands reacted with a lot of devil's stuff in their songs upon this. They did not do it because they believe in satan, they did it because they wanted to show "those Christians" that they CAN write such music and that there is nothing that they can do against it.

One should not think though that this drove bands like ACDC into REAL satansim. To be honest, I think that bands like ACDC took/take the whole thing much less seriously than their "Christian" counterparts and that it is nothing ideological for them. It is even possible that a lot of people like ACDC have a lot of respect for Christians who try to reach out with others in a loving and brotherly way.

I mean, I have never met the guys from ACDC but I have encountered that attitude a LOT in the Metal scene. There are a lot of people there who would react with a "Hail Satan!" when you give them the feeling that you want to (spiritually) boss them around. The problem there is not the different attitude/faith though. The problem there is the lack of respect upon which most Metalfans will still react in a rather "annoyed" way. If you treat them with respect in a loving way then there is a fair chance that they'll listen, if you don't then you'll get a rather aggressive reply. Unfortunately it is also true that this can be difficult for people who are not into the scene. The way you come across can really differ a lot from the way you actually want to come across. That is also why I think that even a loving Christian shouldn't be too hard on himself when he finds out that he does not click with such people from the rock or Metal scene. Sometimes it is simply better to humbly trust God to use somebody else to do the preaching.

Now, when it comes to the question whether a Christian should listen to such music or not then I must say that the answer to this question will vary from person to person and that one has to trust the holy spirit there.


great post!!!


- however I just wanted to add my two bits on the last paragraph..........(not having a go at you but just wanted to say).

If jesus wouldn't listen to it then it's sin - and as followers of christ, we're called to be doing as he would do.

(I kind of get a bit bugged about that whole 'whats sin for one isn't sin for another' thing - as far as I can see the bible just calls sin, sin!)
I really like your statements about the attitude thing though. Thats really well put. A lot of bands and people get into that kind of stuff just to rebel.
And I know what you mean - you can have the whole throwing the baby out with the bathwater too, they might have some stuff that jesus would listen to. You can't completely write all their music off unless you've heard it all and definately know.

[larryl]

I agree that AC/DC is as Satanic as they come I dont care what anybody says L

why do you think this?

[seeker]

If jesus wouldn't listen to it then it's sin

Prove it

There could have been plenty of music back in Jesus' time that he didn't listen to and not because it was a sin to listen to it.

Just because the bible doesn't talk about Jesus passing gas doesn't mean he didn't and it doesn't mean it's a sin if someone does.

Just trying to put your statement into perspective. :)

[abbershay]

Put on your thinking cap really ,,,, you actually think you would see and hear jesus singing the praises of hell. And vengence , Get a clue ......


It really to me isnt even a sin issue its a what side of the fence are you on issue.

I admit i did it but it was ignorance and stupidity on my part. I am far wiser than that now.

Acdc likes to sing that they are back in black but for me i want to be in the light and dressed in white inside and out.

I used to really like the songs and they are hard driving and make you want to party hardy. I know now there is a spirit behind the music and its not good.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Funny that the subject of this particular band (AC/DC, not Third Day ;) ) came up when it did.

In the local paper yesterday, there was a big writeup on the band, and one of the things mentioned was that Tai actually has the AC/DC song "For Those About to Rock (We Salute You)" as the ringtone on his cell phone.

Go figure. :)

[seeker]

Listening to music and "singing the praises of hell and vengance" are two completely different things.

Take my wife for example, who loves "soft rock". I cannot stand soft rock at all, but I listen to it when we are in the car. That does not mean that I stand for what that person is singing about. And it doesn't mean that I'm sinning because I'm listening to it.

The statement that if Jesus wouldn't listen to it means it's sin is totally (in my book) WAY off. Let's play the what if game, what if Jesus doesn't listen to John Mayer? Is that a sin?

I think that each individual needs to ask themselves about the music they listen to, and that if Jesus was right next to them in the flesh, would they still listen be listening to that particular song?

BTW- obviously Jesus would not be singing the praises of hell, c'mon. But what about if a gay man or woman was singing, would Jesus listen to them? Would it be a sin if He did? :eek:

[Unstereotypical]

One of the most over-rated Rock bands ever.

They only had 3 good CDs. Their other CDs are pathetic.

1. "Who Made Who" CD
2. "Blow Up your Video" CD
3. "Back in Black" CD

Everything else = Over-rated Rock.

[abbershay]

I suppose if you are a baby christian that is one thing but once you grow i cant imagine wanting to hang on to such obvious anti christian behavior.

[seeker]

^ I hope that is not directed at me, because first off you don't know me and second God is the only judge of me, not you.

What behavior are you talking about? Listening to secular music or music that "sings the praises of hell"?

[abbershay]

It is a general statement but if since you responded perhaps there is some convictions with you. I have no idea since i dont know you.

I used to listen to only heathen music but as i grew i knew that it was hindering my growth , i had no idea before i stopped . This is a spiritual thing that you will not notice without cutting off the subliminal influences that are clouding your heart and mind.

Many pastors call it the garbage in garbage out concept.

When it comes to music it will either bring glory to God or it is waste plane and simple.

Wether you believe it or not it is a proven fact that music has a subliminal messege. It itsnt put there on purpose but its there everywhere.

[seeker]

So you don't listen to anything non-christian? Not that it's a bad thing, just wondering. I used to be the same way.

And what about when there were slaves? When they sang about their freedom how did that "glorify" God? And yet what they sang about was a good thing, how could that be a waste?

[abbershay]

WEll if they were giving glory to God for their freedom then its a good thing because the truth is thats where the freedom came from.

God deserves all the glory for now and eternity. ITs good for us to give it to him . IT edifies us eternally and is constantly filling us who give it.

This is one thing that you can never get enough of . You can fool yourself into thinking that you dont need to but in the end you suffer because it is a fundamental need for good health in a born again christian.

[kiwisongbird]

when i got saved i thought amy grant was evil cos her music had drums - i came out of listening to the sex pistols etc the cramps and other pretty gross music - now i listen to loads of christian music but also non-christian - i also sing non-christian music but when i sing i long to bring Jesus' love to the audience even though i'm not singing about Him... i think i am managing to do this - don't personally like ac/dc don't like led zep - think both groups very likely aren't into God at all but don't think we should put each other down about these things - yes sin is sin... anger, fornication, stealing, homosexuality, hatred, carousing, gluttony etc... all sin - all the same in the sight of God - all icky!!! :)

[Grank]

So what about edgar allen poe... monet... or any other artist who didn't do christian work... are they to be placed in the bin of heathens to be neglected as well? I mean come on dude... you impress me... not in a good way

[seeker]

I have to agree with the 2 previous posts. Sharonlj keep up the good work, that's awesome what you are doing. And I also could care less for both of those bands :)

So your saying unless the slaves were directing their songs to God, their music was worthless. Listen to yourself! Songs were how the slaves could talk and think about their freedom as well find out where the underground railroad was. And what about all the people who help in third world countries with starvation and trying to help people. Because they may not be praising God or bringing glory to Him, is what they are doing "heathen"? C'mon man, get your head out of the sand (and that is said in a loving way).

Just because you may not agree with what someone is doing with their music or their time, does not make it wrong.

[larryl]

When it comes to music it will either bring glory to God or it is waste plane and simple.

Wether you believe it or not it is a proven fact that music has a subliminal messege. It itsnt put there on purpose but its there everywhere.

show me where this is proven, please. the subliminal message part.

and as to the first part.....there are thousands of songs, that do not directly bring glory to god, that are not a waste........

many of them by people like third day, steven curtis chapman, MWS, etc....

[larryl]

I suppose if you are a baby christian that is one thing but once you grow i cant imagine wanting to hang on to such obvious anti christian behavior.


i listen to music because i like the music......i do not base it on lyrical content. nor do i, or can i, base it on the heart of the ones making it, since i cannot know that.....

anti-christian behavior? give me a break.

[abbershay]

THe lyics are clearly antichrisian if you cant see that nothing i say will change your mind. Who made who ? hells bells highway to hell back in black , dirty deeds done dirt cheap..... if you cant see please take off the blinders.


As for the subliminal stuff it is in reverse if you play the music back words there are messeges that will come up . Christian songs at least the ones i have heard give praises to the Lord and speak of his soon coming, while the others are full of nasty things. This even goes into our everyday speach when played backwards if recorded.

This is not put in there on purpose its just a part of the unseen world .

[DareDevil]

A while ago there was a test. Scientists showed how a sound engeneer had smuggled a backward message into Pink Floyd's "The Wall" album. The message was about his suicidal tendencies and how he wanted to hang himself in the studio which he then did. Then they played those backward messages and you could really hear them.

Problem is that they then revealed that the whole sound engeneer story was completely made up. All those scientists wanted show was how easy it is to convince yourself to hear something that is not there, paticularly when it comes to backward masking.



This does not mean that there are no backward messages though. Sometimes it happens that satanic bands like Cradle of Filth really put satanic messages into their songs and other bands use them only as a sound effect. Judas Priest's infamous "Give me a peppermint, baby" is a good example there... unless you assume that they have a deal with Wrigleys of course. :o

[abbershay]

i am not talking ab out back masking . This is automatically in there it is clear and very obvious . You will hear it in everything you hear, even in common everyday language. This is why it is so important to wash yourself in the water of the Word.

i think that there are likely subliminal content in the Word that actually washes away the subliminal sewege of this world from our minds.

[larryl]

sorry....i don't buy it....you said it's a proven fact.....where is the proof?

there are a lot of "christian" musicians doing all sorts of bad things, but singing about god.....to me that is far worse than ac/dc making the music they do...

there is a lot more i would love to say on this, but i have said it all before....

music is music.... i am listening to country right now......brent mason playing a smokin' guitar solo....i couldn't begin to tell you what the song is about.....

[abbershay]

Wether you believe or not doesnt make any difference if you care you will look into it. just look up reverse speach there is much to say about it .

There was a fellow who was looking into it in music i dont remember his name but it show the differences in who the music brought glory to.

[sherri]

Prove it

There could have been plenty of music back in Jesus' time that he didn't listen to and not because it was a sin to listen to it.

Just because the bible doesn't talk about Jesus passing gas doesn't mean he didn't and it doesn't mean it's a sin if someone does.

Just trying to put your statement into perspective. :)



I said wouldn't listen to, not 'didn't' listen to. Hello!!!

If jesus wouldn't listen to something it would be because it was sin to do so.

[coldcupofjoe]

just look up reverse speach there is much to say about it


I did just that and conducted some expirments using the website (http://www.reversespeech.com/Simple_Examples.htm) I found. When I read what they said it was supposed to say I could hear clearly what was supposed to be said but when I listened to the sound clip before hand I couldn't hear anything. It was only after i read what it was supposed to say and listened to it again that anything made any sense

Some of them are luaghable. There is one example with osama bin laden speaking in arabic yet his reverse speech is CLEARLY understood in english. As a matter of fact it's the first one i heard that I could understand without reading what they said it said first.

http://www.reversingmachines.com/

http://froogle.google.com/froogle_cluster?btnG=Sear ch+Froogle&hl=en&oid=7973884494352964424&pid=4694681141821585925&q=sony+stereo+tape+record er&scoring=p

[larryl]

Wether you believe or not doesnt make any difference if you care you will look into it. just look up reverse speach there is much to say about it .

There was a fellow who was looking into it in music i dont remember his name but it show the differences in who the music brought glory to.

i found several......none providing real proof......it's like those old classes from youth camp, where they played the backward masking on lp's....you hear what you want to hear in it...

[larryl]

I said wouldn't listen to, not 'didn't' listen to. Hello!!!

If jesus wouldn't listen to something it would be because it was sin to do so.


hmmmm.....i am not sure i totally agree.....

maybe he wouldn't listen to it because he didn't persoanlly care for the style :D

i have many christian friends who won't listen to southern gospel, while i love it.....

but who knows....it's a pretty odd way to look at the whole thing, i think....

[SnoopyFreak]

I'm not going to join the debate about AC/DC here....I'm just wondering what picture (and where did you see it) are you talking about? I've seen tons of Third Day pics, but I've never seen the one you're talking about. Can you post a link to it? Or post the picture? :)

[imperfect]

Ugh....hold on I can't see for the plank in my eye! Someone give it a pull will ya?

My own bachelorette party was at an AC/DC concert in 82. Even as an officer in the FCA I grew angry at the hypocritical Christians at my school and lobbied to have Highway to Hell as our Class of 81 song.

I still thank my fellow classmates for tolerating my foolishness at the time and Searching by Chicago was our class song. Whew!

I love Jesus with all of my heart. Yet, I have Audio Adrenaline, Michael W, Rich Mullins, The Winans, SCC, Beatles, Coldplay, Willie Nelson, Ray Charles, Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughn and Melissa Etheridge. Oh My!

So burn me at the stake, I'm in good company.

[g-man]

I'm gonna have to say I'd rather hear AC/Dc than the Winans. :D

[SnoopyFreak]

I'm gonna have to say I'd rather hear AC/Dc than the Winans. :D

LOL...that's funny stuff!! :p

[imperfect]

I'm gonna have to say I'd rather hear AC/Dc than the Winans. :D
If the Winans had a white child, I'd be it!

[imperfect]

'Criticism can be a nasty thing. We've all been on the giving and receiving ends of it, and even for the giver it's never pretty. However, it’s amazing how critical believers can be of one another at times. It's as if when we receive salvation, we are given the authority to hold everyone around us accountable, according to our own personal convictions and ideals. Sometimes we can give off the impression that we 'know it all'! Dealing with criticism is never easy and “How Do You Know” asks the question, 'How do you know what I'm supposed to be doing?” The tone of the chorus lyrics might give off a bit of a sharp attitude but the real expression of the song is a simple, honest question: 'How DO you know?' It's not to say that the line between sin and righteousness needs to be blurred, but often times there is more than one righteous, Godly response or action to take, i.e.: do I take this job, or that job?; should we put our kids in public school or home school them?; should we take our music to the mainstream audience or stay where it's safe? These are just a few examples of questions that no one but God and ourselves can really work out. Our job as fellow believers is to pray for one another and ask God to impart his wisdom to his saints. The high horse of legalism and piousness needs to be led to the water and drowned. When that happens, the freedom of God's grace as expressed through the church will change the face of our culture.' – David Carr (Third Day)

[lilmikey]

Let me say this about it if you dont agree then it is between you and God all I know is I will not listen to trash like Hell's Bell's and things like that any, The word lets us know whatever is in the heart the mouth speaketh if all the have in their heart is lyrics to songs like Hells Bells and HTH and DDDC.

Dont you see a problem there? I dont have to be Enstein to figure it out.

[g-man]

Let me say this about it if you dont agree then it is between you and God all I know is I will not listen to trash like Hell's Bell's and things like that any, The word lets us know whatever is in the heart the mouth speaketh if all the have in their heart is lyrics to songs like Hells Bells and HTH and DDDC.

Dont you see a problem there? I dont have to be Enstein to figure it out.

Hey Einstein it is between me and God. No problem here at all. I filter out garbage every day. At work. On the streets. If I wanna listen to a cool riff I'll listen. The words are on the ocean floor. :D

[imperfect]

[QUOTE=lilmikee142001]it is between you and God QUOTE]

You are totally right. And that makes us smarter than Einstein cuz grace confounds them intellectuals!

[sherri]

hmmmm.....i am not sure i totally agree.....

maybe he wouldn't listen to it because he didn't persoanlly care for the style :D

i have many christian friends who won't listen to southern gospel, while i love it.....

but who knows....it's a pretty odd way to look at the whole thing, i think....


ok, just to clarify things for the last time - if jesus 'wouldn't' do something as opposed to didn't, it wasn't mentioned in the bible, hadn't gotten around to it, it wasn't invented yet ..........if jesus wouldn't (everybody got that word clear) do something, it was because that thing was sin. Else why would he have a problem with it??

[larryl]

ok, just to clarify things for the last time - if jesus 'wouldn't' do something as opposed to didn't, it wasn't mentioned in the bible, hadn't gotten around to it, it wasn't invented yet ..........if jesus wouldn't (everybody got that word clear) do something, it was because that thing was sin. Else why would he have a problem with it??


ok...i was kinda just trying to lighten things up....... :D

[Kyle's dad]

One of the most over-rated Rock bands ever.

They only had 3 good CDs. Their other CDs are pathetic.

1. "Who Made Who" CD
2. "Blow Up your Video" CD
3. "Back in Black" CD

Everything else = Over-rated Rock.

Oh well if you say they're so overrated then it must be true. :rolleyes:

[Healing Oil]

I believe Jesus wouldn't listen to country music, therefore, it is heathen music and a sin! :p

I personally don't like the musical styles of AC/DC, but I do listen to other "non-christian" music. I even attend "non-christian" concerts. I personally prefer secular over Christian music. I haven't come across many catchy Christian bands, and the ones I have are not really around anymore.

It would be such a shame to look down on a band like Thirdday simply because they are sporting a secular T-shirt. The truth is that many many Christian artists are inspired by secular artists. If it wasn't for those heathens, maybe we wouldn't have some of the musical stylings that we do in the CCM world.

[Grank]

Oh well if you say they're so overrated then it must be true. :rolleyes:

well he's right.... they're no metallica...

[Healing Oil]

well he's right.... they're no metallica...Please tell me that this is sarcasm.

IF it isnt, it made me laugh anyways!

[Grank]

Please tell me that this is sarcasm.

IF it isnt, it made me laugh anyways!
Well I am sarcastic a lot but Metallica is the greatest band of all time... no sarcasm

[kiwisongbird]

Nah! Third Day are the greatest band of all time!!!! They rock!!! :p :p

[WeaselInYerFoot]

I was looking at the picutures and one of the guys was wearing an Acdc ball cap . Whats with that? Is this the heathen band acdc that sings about their trip down the highway to hell or something else?


Kinda curious....

Yeah it's the heathen band AC/DC. Sorry you're dissapointed. May I suggest that you try to expect perfection only from Jesus, Instead of a group of guys whos depravity is directly equivalent to yours and mine?

[lilmikey]

Yeah it's the heathen band AC/DC. Sorry you're dissapointed. May I suggest that you try to expect perfection only from Jesus, Instead of a group of guys whos depravity is directly equivalent to yours and mine?
We can be perfect the word says Be Ye perfect as I am perfect


Not in ourselves of course

[imperfect]

Metallica is the greatest band of all time

OH my goodness. And all of the U2, Stones, Aerosmith, Eagles and Grateful Dead fans gasp in disbelief!

You are a very courageous individual!

I don't know who the greatest of all time. It would depend on the criteria (record sales, longevity, genre, pioneering etc.)

Although they are not MY fave band of all time, I kinda lean towards the Beatles myself.

[middletree]

It would be such a shame to look down on a band like Thirdday simply because they are sporting a secular T-shirt.

It would be shame if someone did this. However, nobody did this, so why bring it up?

[Healing Oil]

It would be shame if someone did this. However, nobody did this, so why bring it up?
The initial post suggests something like it, ie: 'What's with that?' The word 'heathen' was used in reference to the band, and the band member was wearing the hat of this band.

As far as metallica, I kind of lost interest after the whole napster thing.

[Kyle's dad]

well he's right.... they're no metallica...

Maybe to you, but that doesn't make it fact. I just get really annoyed at people that state their opinion as fact.

Besides I am sure Metallica would list Ac/Dc as one of their biggest influences.

Personally, I think both bands are great. But I am humble enough to know that my opinion is not fact.

[Kyle's dad]

As far as metallica, I kind of lost interest after the whole napster thing.

Great point!!! I forgot about the whole napster fiasco. When that whole napster thing was going on, artists with integrity like Dave Matthews, Dave Grohl, Eddie Vedder etc. were laughing at it and saying it was ridiculous that an artist would complain about napster and suggest that it was having a detrimental effect on their finances.

Meanwhile, Metallica found themselves siding with artists like Sting, and Madonna, condemning people for downloading music and using it as justification to jack up concert ticket prices.

Angus Young or Brian Johnson would never do that.

[Healing Oil]

Angus Young or Brian Johnson would never do that.Who? Sorry, I guess Im not that hip :p

And I believe St. Anger probably disqualifies Metallica from being the greatest band of all time. But like you, I too agree that we can't make a fact out of opinion.

[Raven Diver]

The "Live At The Strand" Album, which has Third Day doing a medley of Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus/Can't Help Falling In Love/With Or Without You, also has a version of Back in Black done by Metropolitan (I have no idea who they are :confused: ).

[middletree]

The initial post suggests something like it, ie: 'What's with that?' The word 'heathen' was used in reference to the band, and the band member was wearing the hat of this band.


I didn't read that post as "looking down on the band" at all.



As far as metallica, I kind of lost interest after the whole napster thing.

If you are talking about how they stood up for themselves and their employees, I disagree. People should not copy music they didn't pay for, unless the ones who own rights to it approve. And for the record, I hate Metallica's music, so this isn't a case of a fan sticking up for them.

[larryl]

The "Live At The Strand" Album, which has Third Day doing a medley of Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus/Can't Help Falling In Love/With Or Without You, also has a version of Back in Black done by Metropolitan (I have no idea who they are :confused: ).


you should dig, and find out.....fine musicians. (i know, but even if i told you, you wouldn't recognize the names)

[Kyle's dad]

Who? Sorry, I guess Im not that hip :p

And I believe St. Anger probably disqualifies Metallica from being the greatest band of all time. But like you, I too agree that we can't make a fact out of opinion.


Brian Johnson is the lead singer of AC/DC and Angus Young is the lead guitarist.

[imperfect]

Thanksgiving and Xmas 83 I was in the hospital with menigitis. My best friends brought me a little Santa Teddy bear and we named him Angus. I then sent Angus to one of them when she was bedridden during her pregnancy and then she sent it back to me when my daughter had her tonsils out.

For over 20 yrs, Angus has traveled all over between the three of us by our bedsides, weddings, funerals and our high school reunion (even though it was in Oct and not Xmas time.) We aren't superstitious and we no longer attend AC/DC concerts but everytime I break him out I am not reminded of those cloudy years of my teens. He now represents a friendship between three shallow teen girls who have grown up and have seen it all together.

BTW did you know he made the list of most powerful short men at 5-2?
I can take him. Though his knickers are so passe!

[Healing Oil]

I didn't read that post as "looking down on the band" at all.

You didn't, I happened to a little. We all interpret posts differently.


If you are talking about how they stood up for themselves and their employees, I disagree. People should not copy music they didn't pay for, unless the ones who own rights to it approve. And for the record, I hate Metallica's music, so this isn't a case of a fan sticking up for them.This isn't even worth debating over to me personally. I think they made a huge deal and disapointed the fans that made them what they were.

[Grank]

as far as people stating their opinion as fact... why would you even get upset about that. During any sports season you can hear every college or high school saying their team is the best... i say the browns are awesome, but we all know the reallity of that situation. I mean... wow... in sports there is some objectivity as to who is the best as the teams can play (boo BCS)... but obviously when it comes to a field such as music who is the best is an opinion. For you to think I was meaning it as a fact is ridiculous... I might look stupid and I might be stupid but I'm not that stupid...

Metallica is the best band ever...
The Browns are the best NFL team ever...
The Buckeyes are the best NCAA football team ever...
Rick Patino is the greatest coach ever...
Blue is the most awesomest color ever...
Leonardo is the best Ninja Turtle...
Dogs are better than cats...
Tooth gel is superior to tooth paste...
Chevy is better than Ford...
IED's are not cool at all...
Chocolate is much better than vanilla...
Pepsi > Coke...

[coldcupofjoe]

OMGZERS!!! coke is SOOOOOOOO way better than pepsi!

[Ehud Elijah]

For those about to rock.....




...I salute you.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

OMGZERS!!! coke is SOOOOOOOO way better than pepsi!

but not better than captain Picard.

[Kyle's dad]

as far as people stating their opinion as fact... why would you even get upset about that. During any sports season you can hear every college or high school saying their team is the best...


It doesn't bother me so much with sports. With sports I know why someone from Cleveland would say the Browns are #1. And with sports there is ultimately something that you can point to (Super Bowl, World Series etc.) that is the real indicator of who the best is.

But art is so subjective, that I don't think there really is a best. I think there are good artists and bad, and I would say there are great artists, but I don't think there is a best. It's all dependent on an artist's ability to connect. Plus, I never said that you meant it as fact, I said that I get annoyed when people state their opinion as fact.

Plus I wasn't so much responding to you but to another poster. I am not saying it annoys me all the time. In a forum like this, we all do it once in a while because we know that it's all in good fun. I was porbably overreacting, but the post didn't just say AC/DC was overrated. It said they were overrated, and then tried to support the statement with three more purely opinion-based statements. If they had just "AC/DC is overrated" and left it at that, I probably wouldn't have reacted. But to say that, and then act like you are trying to build a case to support that statement, and then have that support be purely opinion-based, to me goes beyond just stating an opinion. It reminded me of conversations that I have had with people who loved a movie or book that I didn't like. When I say that I didn't care for it, their response is to condescendingly tell me I didn't understand it.

I am sorry that you find it "ridiculous" that I sometimes get annoyed at people stating their opinion as fact. But it is what it is, I don't know what to tell you.

[rossid]

My baby brother was an AC/DC fan but I'm not sure if he listens to it anymore. I've never really listened to Metallica.

[DaveCarmack]

[QUOTE=Kyle's dad]Great point!!! I forgot about the whole napster fiascoQUOTE]

The main thing that started or even cought their eye on Napster was the fact that songs were on Napster of theirs as soon as they were recording them. They were making the song for the 007 movie I dissapear, they recorded several versions of it and as soon as they were recorded they were put out as bootlegs. Now I cant see that makign any band including TD happy about that. Did they take to far, imo yes. They should have found out who the rat was in the studio that was taking and sharing them.

I still listen to them though, and alot of secular groups. Do I live their lyrics no, but as a musician and just a fan of music you learn alot from bands like Metallica, AC/DC, RUSH, and Led Zeppelin. And if you ask just about any musician they have listened and learned how to play from prolly one or more of those bands. And I would bet at one time even learned how to olay one of their songs.
Oh and

RUSH is the best band ever...
The Bears are the best NFL team ever...
The Fighting Irish are the best NCAA football team ever...
John Wooden is the greatest coach ever...
Blue is the most awesomest color ever... I agree :)
Leonardo is the best Ninja Turtle... Yup :)
Cats are better than dogs... I have both, cats more entertaining
Tooth paste is superior to tooth gel...
FORD is better than Chevy or Dodge... I love my F-150 Super Crew :p
IED's are not cool at all... nope!
Chocolate is much better than vanilla...
Pepsi is waaaayyyyyyy better than coke!!!1

Dave

[Howlin' Wolf]

YOUR YOUTH PASTORS ARE ALL WRONG!!!!!!

there is nothing wrong with secular music. listening to and/or playing AC/DC is not inherently sinful. so get over yourselves

[Ehud Elijah]

YOUR YOUTH PASTORS ARE ALL WRONG!!!!!!

there is nothing wrong with secular music. listening to and/or playing AC/DC is not inherently sinful. so get over yourselves

Somebody must listen to AC/DC, or worse.................... .....................KISS

[Howlin' Wolf]

Somebody must listen to AC/DC, or worse.................... .....................KISS

eh, i'm not into 80's metal that much anymore

but its the whole "christians should have nothing to do with anything secular" argument that really gets me

[middletree]

eh, i'm not into 80's metal that much anymore

but its the whole "christians should have nothing to do with anything secular" argument that really gets me
I agree with you, and have been vocal about this in regards to secular music in general. However, there are one or two bands that don't just say something secular; they say something ungodly. Their lyrics are a problem for me, and I include ACDC and Zep in this group.

[GuitarMan2387]

what about bands like "lamb of god" that obviously mock christ?

I'd say theres a line ot be drawn, but where.

[lilmikey]

There should ne something deep down inside of Christians when we listen to seculer music that says "this aint right." sorta like conviction or sumthing

[middletree]

There should ne something deep down inside of Christians when we listen to seculer music that says "this aint right." sorta like conviction or sumthing
If by this, you mean all secular music, I disagree.

[Healing Oil]

There should ne something deep down inside of Christians when we listen to seculer music that says "this aint right." sorta like conviction or sumthingSecular music can not be boiled down to a universal conviction among all Christians. This is what legalism is.

Sex outside of marriage should be a universal conviction among all Christians.

[Grank]

Secular music can not be boiled down to a universal conviction among all Christians. This is what legalism is.

Sex outside of marriage should be a universal conviction among all Christians.

KER-PLAW!!!

[WeaselInYerFoot]

There should ne something deep down inside of Christians when we listen to seculer music that says "this aint right." sorta like conviction or sumthing

Question is, is it true conviction? or is this conviction based on the constant pounding on the same issue from fellow christians and/or parents? If you think it's a sin or a detriment to your relationship with God then by all means do follow. But ca... wait, I just noticed that I'm saying the same thing Healing Oil did. So I'll just agree with Healing Oil!

[Aenon]

What would Jesus do? What do you think? What kind or morals does AC/DC have? What about Led Zepp? What if the Antichrist was a rock star? Would we listen to his music? Would Jesus buy his CD and promote him with a baseball cap? Shouldn't we look deeper into the morals of the bands we listen to and question whether or not they believe in Jesus? Same thing with movies and games. We ARE influenced by these things.

[middletree]

What would Jesus do? What do you think? What kind or morals does AC/DC have? What about Led Zepp? What if the Antichrist was a rock star? Would we listen to his music? Would Jesus buy his CD and promote him with a baseball cap? Shouldn't we look deeper into the morals of the bands we listen to and question whether or not they believe in Jesus? Same thing with movies and games. We ARE influenced by these things.
I think there's some merit to what you say, but I don't totally agree. After all, do you find yourself concerned with the morals of the cashier at the grocery store? No, you just let her do her job.

Of course, with music, it's different because the job they do can contain lyrics which reflect their morals, so we have to watch what we put into our head. So any lyrics that are overtly anti-biblical are clearly wrong for believers. But secular music in general, just singing about life, is not wrong.

[lilmikey]

Secular music can not be boiled down to a universal conviction among all Christians. This is what legalism is.

Sex outside of marriage should be a universal conviction among all Christians.
good point!

[Aenon]

I think there's some merit to what you say, but I don't totally agree. After all, do you find yourself concerned with the morals of the cashier at the grocery store? No, you just let her do her job.

Of course, with music, it's different because the job they do can contain lyrics which reflect their morals, so we have to watch what we put into our head. So any lyrics that are overtly anti-biblical are clearly wrong for believers. But secular music in general, just singing about life, is not wrong.

The cashier at the counter doesn't influence me with music or other forms of entertainment. (unless of course she is a dancing,singing cashier...hee..hee) Yeah, I mean I do listen to some music(no lyrics) that isn't Christian. But, I guess that I would rather feed my head with lyrics about Jesus and watch movies that are filling me full of Jesus(which is rare this day and time). But, that 's my choice. He says to eat from his table...eat his food...drink his wine. So, to me that means feeding off of the stuff that is about him. Filling me with his influence.

[Grank]

Why is music one of the few arts people say should be only christian? It makes no sense. Nobody will ever tell you that you shouldn't look at monet's paintings or shouldn't read Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening. I could walk into church with a Roman statue of Venus and nobody would really care but if I were to listen to Ac/Dc in my car in the parking lot I'd be talked about for a while. That's what I love about church... the humanity that lies behind it all. It's funny sometimes.

Am I saying that ancient sculpting is bad... no. I'm saying let art be art. If y'all can accept a statue for what it is... art... there's no reason a song can't be art as well. Obviously this doesn't apply to a statue of something against God... say Satan killing an angel... as well as a song that talks about God badly too.

Art is art and christians always say music has to say something about God in it but they never make an arguement for any other art. That doesn't make sense dude.

[middletree]

But the cashier...
OK, then how about books. Movies. Sitcoms. Those are stories being told, and I assume you indulge in at least one of them, right? Well, music is just another way of telling a story. When the bible tells us about David's adultery, we can share in his pain. When a singer sings about lost love, we share their pain. Singing about life is not only acceptable, it's a given. It'd be a shame to cut that out of your life. We all gain when hearing stories that gifted storytellers tell.


But, I guess that I would rather... But, that 's my choice.


OK, I was responding to the idea that Christians are not to listen to secular music. If that is not what you were saying, we're on the same page. Or same sheet of music.

He says to eat from his table...eat his food...drink his wine. So, to me that means feeding off of the stuff that is about him. Filling me with his influence.

Ah, see, that's where I don't see it the same as you. Part of being human is that we get gifts. Some get the ability to tell a story. Of those, some do it in musical form. When someone exercises God-given abilities, it's a good thing.

Of course, someone can use these abilities in ways that are against God's principles. Balaam, for example, was given a gift of prophecy, and yet he sold his gift by telling kings what their fate was. But notice God didn't take the gift away. He simply used a talking donkey to get Balaam's attention and start using his gift for good. Comparitively, if a person has the gift of being able to create or perform music, and they use it to write or sing overtly satanic songs, then that is clearly wrong, and God will take care of them one way or another. But as long as they are not doing that, then, IMO, they are glorifying God simply by using their gift.

[Jake]

Wow....somehow I had missed this whole thread. Must have been hot while my PC was down.

I won't take long, and I have until about 3 to fend off the attacks before I go to work. The judgemental nature of some of you, namely the one (lilmike?) who made the call as to what should convict a Christian makes me realize that the stereotypical view that lost people have of Christians is true. Get the beam out of your own eye before you go after the speck in mine.

And to those of you who refuse to touch any of the world's filth, go have dinner with a hooker like a certain Biblical man I read of and call me. What was his name again????

[middletree]

You do realize that your post about judgmental people is very judgmental, don't you?

[Jake]

Yea. It was kinda tongue in cheek. I don't really care about people who gripe about musical tastes. I had enough of that crap at my old church. I laugh it off now.

[middletree]

Yea. It was kinda tongue in cheek. I don't really care about people who gripe about musical tastes. I had enough of that crap at my old church. I laugh it off now.
Oh, Ok. Seemed serious.

BTW, lilmikee is 13, so I tend to cut him slack.

[steffen]

As for the subliminal stuff it is in reverse if you play the music back words there are messeges that will come up . Christian songs at least the ones i have heard give praises to the Lord and speak of his soon coming, while the others are full of nasty things. This even goes into our everyday speach when played backwards if recorded.
Sorry, I know I haven't read the whole thread, but it was just when I read this...

It's not just in music, it's also in politics.

A (satirical) tv program in Denmark checked our prime minister's new year's eve speech for backward messages and found the words "I am clever enough... smart enough... tuff' enough... gonna kill some grown-up people on tv"

In an interview he supposedly said, "I have much humor" 14 times.

And (talking about people employed in government-run organizations) "I am of the opinion that they are to be shot"

Now go back to your serious debate, I'll continue to read along. :)

[imperfect]

This thread is growing in good debate. While it isn't productive to witnessing to non-Christians I don't mind my iron being sharpened by someone else’s either.

While I disregard sharp tongued judgemental words from brethren that feel it is their right to chastise me for the things THEY believe I am doing wrong in their eyes. I admit, I also must heed the counsel of those whose intentions are for my good as well as the witness of our Savior. Know what I mean? I also need to be held accountable for what I watch and listen to.

Perhaps the reason non-Christians are turned off Christianity is partially due to how easily Christians judge each other and non-believers. As I grow in Christ, I learn of the true darkness within my own soul and as I grow older, I realize I am less qualified to present my views on such matters as His final word.

Now...being a parent though, I have ensured that my kids are exposed to all positive messages in music, writings, movies, TV shows. I would no more exclude positive secular music, books, TV or movies anymore than I would require them to watch ONLY the INSP channel. Yikes.

My son is 20 now and is guided by his own moral compass. Man, some of his choices in music and movies drive me NUTS but he is no longer under my covering.

[Jake]

Oh, Ok. Seemed serious.

BTW, lilmikee is 13, so I tend to cut him slack.


The last part was. Jesus was proof that everything OF the world was not inherently evil. If it was, he wouldn't have touched it. But it wasn't.

And I didn't think to check the ages. His posts seem very well put together for a 13 year old.

[lilmikey]

Oh, Ok. Seemed serious.

BTW, lilmikee is 13, so I tend to cut him slack.

I am actually 18 I made up this name 4 yrs ago.

[lilmikey]

Why is music one of the few arts people say should be only christian? It makes no sense. Nobody will ever tell you that you shouldn't look at monet's paintings or shouldn't read Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening. I could walk into church with a Roman statue of Venus and nobody would really care but if I were to listen to Ac/Dc in my car in the parking lot I'd be talked about for a while. That's what I love about church... the humanity that lies behind it all. It's funny sometimes.

Am I saying that ancient sculpting is bad... no. I'm saying let art be art. If y'all can accept a statue for what it is... art... there's no reason a song can't be art as well. Obviously this doesn't apply to a statue of something against God... say Satan killing an angel... as well as a song that talks about God badly too.

Art is art and christians always say music has to say something about God in it but they never make an arguement for any other art. That doesn't make sense dude.

Well.. because remember the Bible talks about Lucifer being the angel of music. That is one of his main tools that he uses today and it is his strongest tool that is why bad music, bands whatever you wanna call it has such an influence on people because music is essentially what Satan/Lucifer was created for. Hence, when he fell he perverted music.

BTW I am not(or mean to be judgmental). All I am saying is we need to be careful of the music we listen too. Thats all

Here is an example of being judgmental(to me) "Christians who listen to "seculer" music are going to Hell" I never said or will say that. I am not judging your salvation that is not my place to do that!

[Yh!SlrpSpdr]

Well.. because remember the Bible talks about Lucifer being the angel of music.

Show me where it says this please. I want book chapter and verse. Also please find any place in the Bible where it talks about Lucifer.

[Grank]

i think it's isa 14:12 or something like that where it talks about lucifer...

[Jake]

You know, I've also always heard that whole thing about Lucifer being over the music, but I've never seen any scriptural proof. Is it just a tactic people use to make secular music seem evil?

BTW, I picked up an AC/DC and a Rolling Stones hoodie today at Wal Mart.

[Grank]

You know, I've also always heard that whole thing about Lucifer being over the music, but I've never seen any scriptural proof. Is it just a tactic people use to make secular music seem evil?

BTW, I picked up an AC/DC and a Rolling Stones hoodie today at Wal Mart.

ac/dc hoodie red or black?

[Jake]

It's black, and in Silver it has the AC/DC logo and under that, it says "Back in Black."

[imperfect]

[QUOTE=Jake]You know, I've also always heard that whole thing about Lucifer being over the music, but I've never seen any scriptural proof. Is it just a tactic people use to make secular music seem evil?
QUOTE]
I don't believe it's a tactic but simply his gift. Reason I don't believe it's a tactic is we all are given gifts as well as the freewill to use them. Some use their gifts to glorify God and some use it for self-glorification or worse to engage in sin.

Ok, scripture experts where is it? I thought it was in Ezekial. Yes, Ezekial 28 which talks about Lucifer was created as a perfect being and his music which was his voice was an instrument of praise.

[Jake]

First of all, I meant people use the whole thing about Lucifer being over the music was a human tactic to make secular music seem evil.

Secondly, I just read Ezekial 28 and I don't see what you're talking about

[Yh!SlrpSpdr]

I don't believe it's a tactic but simply his gift. Reason I don't believe it's a tactic is we all are given gifts as well as the freewill to use them. Some use their gifts to glorify God and some use it for self-glorification or worse to engage in sin.

Ok, scripture experts where is it? I thought it was in Ezekial. Yes, Ezekial 28 which talks about Lucifer was created as a perfect being and his music which was his voice was an instrument of praise.

Uhm... Okay. Having read Ezek 28 this is God talking through Ezekial to the king of Tyre. He compared himself with a God saying we just as smart and rich and powerful as God. So God is saying he was gonna knock this little king down a few notches. NOWHERE does it say anything about Lucifer AT ALL!!! And I checked in FOUR translations!! Not a SINGLE one of them talked about Lucifer. If you have a translation that does tell me what it is, please. Otherwise read your scriptures before posting to make sure you can at least make an ATTEMPT to make it say what you want.

[imperfect]

Uhm... Okay. Having read Ezek 28 this is God talking through Ezekial to the king of Tyre. He compared himself with a God saying we just as smart and rich and powerful as God. So God is saying he was gonna knock this little king down a few notches. NOWHERE does it say anything about Lucifer AT ALL!!! And I checked in FOUR translations!! Not a SINGLE one of them talked about Lucifer. If you have a translation that does tell me what it is, please. Otherwise read your scriptures before posting to make sure you can at least make an ATTEMPT to make it say what you want.


I have no desire to make the word say anything I WANT nor was I attempting to do so. I was (with good intentions) simply offering you a place to begin a study on music and it's possible relation to Lucifer.

There are several excellent commentaries and studies about the various angels such as Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer regarding their duties in heaven as well as Lucifer's origin and fall. Michael has always been portrayed as the commander, Gabriel the messenger and Lucifer the celestial and worship leader type. One of my favorites, which is in story format is called the Fall of Lucifer and reads like a Frank Peretti or Left Behind story which is based on scriptural principles but it's authenticity is to be judged after all is said and done.

Almost all of the study bibles and commentaries have long believed that when the prophet starts going after the King of Tyre whom many scholars believe is Satan, that he is referencing the origin of Lucifer as a perfect created being as beautiful as the jewels referenced in vs. 13 with the gift of worship in tambourine (tambrets) and voice (pipes). Then Ezekial talks about his fall and future judgement.

I don't know and honestly, it has no affect on my walk one way or the other but makes for interesting reading and studying.

As far as the evils of secular music and it's relation to Satan, which was your original post. I feel the Word is silent on this subject, however, the Holy Spirit gives us the gift of discernment. We each know whether what we are reading, watching, or listening to feeds our spirit or not regardless of whether there is a bible verse to justify our actions.

But that's just my opinion not a message from on High.

[Yh!SlrpSpdr]

Isaiah 14:4

you will take up this tuant against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has ceased!
How his insolence has been broken!
nrsv

Isaiah 14 is talking about the king of Babylon. No where in that chapter is lucifer mentioned Grank. Why do you think Isaiah talks about the king of Babylon in one breath then moves on to Lucifer in the next. Falling from heaven is a common reference of kings losing power in that time. Kings were in some cultures equated with gods. So when a king fell from power it was a huge event. I.e. falling from heaven.




Imperfect I would ask you the same question why do you equate the king of Tyre with Lucifer? Becuase someone you think is smarter than you said so? In my understanding of the things I have read there are very few scholars who still equate the king of Tyre in the book of Ezekial to Lucifer. What are the names of these books you say I should study. I'll try to find some time to squeeze in some reading if I can find these books.

Lastly show me where the Bible says Lucifer and Satan are the same being.

[larryl]

As far as the evils of secular music and it's relation to Satan, which was your original post. I feel the Word is silent on this subject, however, the Holy Spirit gives us the gift of discernment. We each know whether what we are reading, watching, or listening to feeds our spirit or not regardless of whether there is a bible verse to justify our actions.

But that's just my opinion not a message from on High.

i couldn't agree more. well stated.

just remember....the spirit may not lead us all to the same conclusions.

[Godgrl Gomer]

For the record, AC/DC does not mean, Against Christ/Devil's Children. Just in case y'all were under that impression. It is the electrical currents...Adjacent Current/Direct Current.
AccaDacca are too heavy for me. But I do know a few of their songs. Especially Dirty Deeds and Thunderstruck. Now people can sing about things that they dont necessarily hold true to themselves. They sing about things that are going on in society or events that they found interesting and intriguing thus inspiration for their art.
These guys aren't satanic, but they arent good role models either. Satan could use their music if he so chose...definately. But as far as deliberately being Satanic, these guys are far from it. In fact they are quite respectable towards Christians...especially those who arent condeming others for every possible thing... you know the type.
So fine, ya don't like the band. Thats ok. Don't call them Satanic for that is actually issuing a curse upon them and then YOU are the one in the wrong. These boys I would say are misguided and lost. So pray for them or pray for their listeners. Just because a person listens to a band like this does not mean they are not open to or already belong to Christ. I fully understand the spiritual influences in music, so I understand where you are coming from. The world is NOT black and white and really neither is Christianity. One can still have Jesus as their Lord and savior and have a personal relationship with Him and listen to bands such as AC/DC.We are not to judge one another thus we sould refrain from condeming others. I dont not preach a fuzzy wuzzy Christianity. Far from it. I just want to remind people that by casting judgements and condemning is exactly what Satan wants us to do. he wants us to curse others and thus sin and cause disruption between believers. Dont fall into the evil one's trap. He is legalistic. Jesus is compassionate. Our salvation is due to our accepting Christ's Lordship not by the music we listen to or the type of lifestlye we live. It would be good to remember that. You will be surprised that many Christians are more religious than Christ is.

[mcgreen311]

Almost all of the study bibles and commentaries have long believed that when the prophet starts going after the King of Tyre whom many scholars believe is Satan, that he is referencing the origin of Lucifer as a perfect created being as beautiful as the jewels referenced in vs. 13 with the gift of worship in tambourine (tambrets) and voice (pipes). Then Ezekial talks about his fall and future judgement.

Slight hijack...I heard a great message on this subject and the preacher also referenced the jewels found on the King of Tyre with the jewels found in heaven. It also cross-referenced the custom of taking a portions of conquered king's train with Isaiah 6:1 about God's train filling the temple. /hijack

[Grank]

Isaiah 14:4

you will take up this tuant against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has ceased!
How his insolence has been broken!
nrsv

Isaiah 14 is talking about the king of Babylon. No where in that chapter is lucifer mentioned Grank. Why do you think Isaiah talks about the king of Babylon in one breath then moves on to Lucifer in the next. Falling from heaven is a common reference of kings losing power in that time. Kings were in some cultures equated with gods. So when a king fell from power it was a huge event. I.e. falling from heaven.


Lastly show me where the Bible says Lucifer and Satan are the same being.

we might have different Bible translations but mine says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning." in Isa 14:12. I'm using a KJV.... but, um.... yeah. As far as equating Satan and Lucifer... yeah, I don't think they're the same person. I think Lucifer was just a name used to relate the king of babylons wealth.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Slight hijack...I heard a great message on this subject and the preacher also referenced the jewels found on the King of Tyre with the jewels found in heaven. It also cross-referenced the custom of taking a portions of conqurered king's train with Isaiah 6:1 about God's train filling the temple. /hijack
what a useful sermon that will bring sinners into repentance aand equip the listeners to go out and reach their community


As far as the evils of secular music and it's relation to Satan, which was your original post. I feel the Word is silent on this subject, however, the Holy Spirit gives us the gift of discernment. We each know whether what we are reading, watching, or listening to feeds our spirit or not regardless of whether there is a bible verse to justify our actions.
why then only stop at music? what about TV, Movies, sporting events, secular books and art??

everyone wants to make the "secular music is evil" argument because that is a pillar they can set up and measure their spirituality by how well they keep their new law. yet everyone is silent when someone includes TV and movies into the mix.

things that make me go hmmmmm

[lilmikey]

I can definatly see your point. BUT music is still one of the worlds main source of influence(if not main). Can a book or tv show open up your spirit to worship God. Music can and God made it that way.

I am not disagreeing with you I can see where you are coming from

[HotWireD]

we might have different Bible translations but mine says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning." in Isa 14:12. I'm using a KJV.... but, um.... yeah. As far as equating Satan and Lucifer... yeah, I don't think they're the same person. I think Lucifer was just a name used to relate the king of babylons wealth.

It appears that the two threads intermingled in this post are down to personal opinion. If a person believes in their soul that AD/DC are a bad influence then avoid them. Personally I have not met the members of the band but the few lyrics I have heard to appear not to embody a Christian philosophy.

At to whether Isaiah refers to a being called 'Lucifer' or is a analogy for bad or good people in general is also down to translation and study of the events being described.

Hijacking as well: The hebrew word translated that appears to be causing some confusion is HEYLEL, which I think means 'golden/golden one' or 'shining one', or 'light bearer' (one of the first brands of matches were called 'lucifers').

Lucifer can be translated as 'shining one'.

The 'shining one' also relates to the planet Venus, which rises with the Sun in the morning (bearing news of the light to come - like an early alarm clock for sunrise).

The word 'lucifer' is not present in the hebrew texts, having appeared in the Latin Holy Bible, translated from the Hebrew and the Greek.

In the Latin Vulgate (Latin Holy Bible) Isaiah 14:12 "Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" <before anyone thinks I am a clever clogs - I copied the greek above from a greek scripture and cannot read it>.

Some commentators state that 'lucifer' is a description, others that 'Lucifer' is a name. I suppose each individual needs to look at the text in context with the whole chapter and make their own conclusions.

In my opinion, 'lucifer' is a description, 'the bringer of light'.

In 2 Peter 1:19 'We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the 'day star' ('lucifer') arise in you hearts'. KJV.

Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 2 Peter 1:19 'And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise - in your hearts'.

Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, Isaiah 14:2 'How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations'.

I have no idea as to whether this is describing a person as a star, or a star as a person.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I can definatly see your point. BUT music is still one of the worlds main source of influence(if not main). Can a book or tv show open up your spirit to worship God. Music can and God made it that way.

I am not disagreeing with you I can see where you are coming from
"can a book or TV show open your spirit to worship God"
there is this book and its called the Bible. you may have heard it

seriously...i cant believe you just said that. you are implying that the the only way God reaches people is through music!?!?!? that is the stupidest thing i have ever seen

[HotWireD]

"can a book or TV show open your spirit to worship God"
there is this book and its called the Bible. you may have heard it

seriously...i cant believe you just said that. you are implying that the the only way God reaches people is through music!?!?!? that is the stupidest thing i have ever seen


I agree, personally, music enriches the quality of my life. My spirit is enriched by books, the thoughts and ideals of others, open discussion and my friends and community.

I can honestly state that my spirit has been enriched by reading the scriptures much much more than any song I have heard (although some songs and music does reach my soul and cheers me up).

[Howlin' Wolf]

I agree, personally, music enriches the quality of my life. My spirit is enriched by books, the thoughts and ideals of others, open discussion and my friends and community.

I can honestly state that my spirit has been enriched by reading the scriptures much much more than any song I have heard (although some songs and music does reach my soul and cheers me up).

it drives me bannanas that people around here and in the church assume that music is the only platform for worship. part of worship is getting to know God. that is only done through reading scriptures. modern day praise teaches me nothing about God. very few songs even contain theological truths. so i very rarely sing at church. that time, to me is better spent, reflecting on my great sins and my great need for a savior. then i am ready to hear God's word spoken to me and to partake in his communion. that is true worship

Tulip the Hymn Snob

[Yh!SlrpSpdr]

Tulip is right! You can worship God by helping other people worship God. Whether that is running the slide show in the back so the words come up on screen or leading singing. Reading your Bible even when you don't want to is worshipping God. That's saying God is more important and you want to hear His voice. Prayer is worship. Teachingsomeone about God is worshipping God.

Song is NOT the only bastion of God praise you can partake in. Watch a sunset, but let the majesty of God'd creation overtake you! And you will have worshipped God.

[imperfect]

what a useful sermon that will bring sinners into repentance aand equip the listeners to go out and reach their community



why then only stop at music? what about TV, Movies, sporting events, secular books and art??

everyone wants to make the "secular music is evil" argument because that is a pillar they can set up and measure their spirituality by how well they keep their new law. yet everyone is silent when someone includes TV and movies into the mix.

things that make me go hmmmmm

Amen. I don't stop at music, I judge what I read, watch and listen to...you know "be careful little eyes what you see, etc.?"

However, I judge what I read, listen to and watch and no one elses. I see it the same as eating healthy and staying physically fit as well. Just trying to be a good steward of my own body and spirit. I don't need black and white rules for that.

I filter out just secular things, afterall, there are plenty of things on Christian TV, radio, and readiing material that make my spirit go hmmmm?

:) Nuff on this subject for me.
Post on Gomers.
Angie

[sandie]

I'm amazed that this topic is still being discussed, but I'll add to it.

I've listened to all sorts of music from the Beatles onwards and loved both secular and Christian music.

Like imperfect, I judge TV shows, radio and movies on a case by case basis. The Holy Spirit prompts me. If it offends, there is always an "Off" button, which was used quite a number of times when my son was growing up, with a quick explanation. It's no big deal.

We used to have a wonderful breakfast radio programme with a witty commentator, but when the new announcers started, I decided that I didn't need smutty sexual innuendo or toilet jokes on the way to work, so I changed to the Christian radio station here.

Sandra.

[larryl]

"can a book or TV show open your spirit to worship God"
there is this book and its called the Bible. you may have heard it

seriously...i cant believe you just said that. you are implying that the the only way God reaches people is through music!?!?!? that is the stupidest thing i have ever seen

as usual, i agree with tulip. the impact music has on our lives is far over rated

(well...on anything outside certain topics)

[Kyle's dad]

modern day praise teaches me nothing about God. very few songs even contain theological truths.

Amen to that!!! I'll take a small church with 40 people singing "A mighty fortress is our God" or "The Church's one foundation" over a mega-church with 5,000 people singing "Shout to the Lord" any day.

[HotWireD]

I did not mean to sound like I approved or disproved of AC/DC, I am indifferent, I do not know enough about them, or their music to feel competent to comment.

I read, listen to, and watch all sorts of stuff. I consider myself eclectic in my musical and reading tastes.

I do not however read or listen to anything, I prefer not to be offended by inappropriate language or offensive subjects so I censor my (own) viewing. This is easiest done by only visiting forums where there is a good chance I can communicate without having to read bad language or about inappropriate subjects, by not purchasing R-rated media and by reading reviews of movies before watching them. That way I can tailor my entertainment to my own personal tastes.

It is easy to switch over channels, or switch off. It is more difficult to know if a book is going to be inappropriate until you have finished reading it.

I rely on my ability to decide if a movie is not going to be suitable for myself ( I read the warnings about swearing, nudity and violence on the backs of the boxes ). I know that if a friend recommends a band or film or book, it will be suitable for me to get. My friends know me and know what I am like.

I think we all mature in our tastes sooner or later. What is dangerous, prohibited and extreme when we are young pales into significance when we get new priorities in life. As I have grown older, I discovered that my tastes have changed as I realised that what I see hear and eat effects my body not only physically but spiritually.

I may have listened to heavy rock when I was younger, it has not made me a bad person, did not turn me to the 'dark side', make me violent or make me sexually promiscuous. I have no particular interest in listening to it any more than my other music in my collection.

One point, it is difficult to read a book with AC/DC on in the background lol.

At some point in our lives we are expected to have enough experience to make the right decisions. If one of my friends wanted to listen to AC/DC I would not mind. If I had a young child, I may take an AC/DC album off them (particularly if they played it over and over again), but I would return it once I thought they were experienced enough to make an informed decision. If they still liked it, so be it, they would be able to listen to it (just not over and over again, not in my home anyway lol).

[oohmercyme]

I'll take a small church with 40 people singing "A mighty fortress is our God" or "The Church's one foundation" over a mega-church with 5,000 people singing "Shout to the Lord" any day.

Agreed! Those repetitive praise songs drive me nuts!

[Howlin' Wolf]

Amen to that!!! I'll take a small church with 40 people singing "A mighty fortress is our God" or "The Church's one foundation" over a mega-church with 5,000 people singing "Shout to the Lord" any day.

have you ever heard of indelible grace? they redo old hymns from the Reformed Hymnal. they are pretty darn good....and i generally dont say that about christian music

[Kyle's dad]

have you ever heard of indelible grace? they redo old hymns from the Reformed Hymnal. they are pretty darn good....and i generally dont say that about christian music

No, but I'll have to check that out. Thanks.

[larryl]

have you ever heard of indelible grace? they redo old hymns from the Reformed Hymnal. they are pretty darn good....and i generally dont say that about christian music

jars of clay used some of them for "redemption songs" fantastic stuff. even if they are reformed :D

[Howlin' Wolf]

jars of clay used some of them for "redemption songs" fantastic stuff. even if they are reformed :D

redemption songs may be the greatest christian album ever made. i listen to that album, and i learn things about myself and about Christ. i am drawn to repentance every time i listen to it, especially the song, "God, be merciful to me"

[middletree]

Amen to that!!! I'll take a small church with 40 people singing "A mighty fortress is our God" or "The Church's one foundation" over a mega-church with 5,000 people singing "Shout to the Lord" any day.
I am on board with you regarding the 5000 vs. the 40 people, but can you elaborate on "Shout to the Lord"? I am pretty sure that song is theologically accurate. (I mention this because you said this in reponse to another post that mentioned modern songs being theologically unsound.)

[Jake]

redemption songs may be the greatest christian album ever made. i listen to that album, and i learn things about myself and about Christ. i am drawn to repentance every time i listen to it, especially the song, "God, be merciful to me"

You are so right about that CD. It really may be the best Christian music ever compiled

[Kyle's dad]

I am on board with you regarding the 5000 vs. the 40 people, but can you elaborate on "Shout to the Lord"? I am pretty sure that song is theologically accurate. (I mention this because you said this in reponse to another post that mentioned modern songs being theologically unsound.)


It's not so much the theology of "Shout to the Lord" that bothers me, but the fact that it just doesn't say much. For example there is one part that says "I want to praise the wonders of your mighty love." I hear that, and I think, so do it. Don't sing about doing it, do it.

It's also pretty much completely void of any real proclamtion. There is no mention of the cross. There is no mention of the ressurection. There is no mention of sin. There is no mention of forgiveness.

The closest Darlene Zsheck comes to proclamation is the line that says "Nothing compares to the promise that I have in you." She mentions the promise, but doesn't really say what it is. Plus she writes of the promise as something God has done for her. And most of the song is sung from that same perspective. Proclamation is telling someone what God had done for them.

This might sound overly-critical, but it's hard for me to really comment on the theology that is in "Shout to the Lord" because there really isn't a whole lot of theology there.

[Godgrl Gomer]

This might sound overly-critical, but it's hard for me to really comment on the theology that is in "Shout to the Lord" because there really isn't a whole lot of theology there.
Shout to the Lord
All the earth let us sing
Power and majesty
Praise to the King
Mountains bow down
And the seas will roar
At the sound of Your name
I sing for joy at the work of Your hand
Forever I'll love You
Forever I'll stand
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You.
Well now...I think the chorus right there has a whole lotta scripture and theology packed into it. Now I agree that at times it is repetative and all that. But this happens to be the first Christian praise and worship song I learnt at church.
The verses speak scripture...
Also the song speaks of:
My Jesus,
My Saviour,
Lord there is none like You

Just in those few lines it speaks of Jesus as The Saviour. Thus the promise referred to later would indicate Salvation.

I just wanted to stand up for my Aussie buddy Darlene....haha :p ;)
I sooo understand exactly where y'all are coming from in regard to repeatative songs. And I also know and understand and am one to preach it often that, singing is not the only form of worship. Our whole lives, our attitude to living, our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is what counts. That is what worship is. Taking pride in cleaning the bathroom can be a form of worship, appreciating and taking care of what Jesus has given. Doing chores with a heart that sings praises, not grumbling about having to clean. At least ya have a home to clean, many do not. Now believe me, I am not always so cheerful in cleaning my bathroom! haha But I think ya get my point.

When I sing Shout to the Lord at church, and we reach the part of where the singer is making a promise to God - I'll sing for joy. Well I mean it when I sing it. I focus in on my Lord and sing it TO Him. My heart becomes so free and I know that He has received it. Yes it is good to sing of our faith and theology etc. But it also good to sing of our joy we have in Him. We are telling our First Love how much we care. And our Abba Father really takes great pride in that.

[Kyle's dad]

Shout to the Lord

Well now...I think the chorus right there has a whole lotta scripture and theology packed into it. Now I agree that at times it is repetative and all that. But this happens to be the first Christian praise and worship song I learnt at church.
The verses speak scripture...
Also the song speaks of:
[B]My Jesus,
My Saviour,
Lord there is none like You

Just in those few lines it speaks of Jesus as The Saviour. Thus the promise referred to later would indicate Salvation.



She mentions the promise and He who gives the promise, but does not go into any great detail of what the promise means. The meaning of the promise should not be implied, it should be proclaimed. As I mentioned before, there is no mention of sin or forgiveness or the cross or the ressurection. There is also no real sense of proclamation.

I was not suggesting that it should never be sung by anyone. For some people "Shout to the Lord" can be a great song to sing in church. That's great for them. I just prefer something with a little more substance. When I read the lyrics to "Shout to the Lord" it seems more like a poem of personal reflection, and not a hymn. (I gues it's not a hymn, but a praise song.) Martin Luther once said that one of the reasons that we sing hymns as a congregation is to hear the Word of God dwelling among the people. I really don't sense that with "Shout to the Lord."

[Pamster]

I haven't been around these boards, or any of the places I tend to visit for what seems like forever. But, this thread is pulling me back I guess...

Before I became a Christian, AC/DC kinda scared me. But then again, I was in high school when they hit the scene...and well, everthing scared me back then LOL. Their music was off the charts then. I remember hearing it just about everywhere I went. All my friends had their albums. Me, I was into Adam Ant.

I did see an interview done by these guys a few years back...and about the death of their first lead singer...and I have to say it broke my heart. Probably not for the reasons you guys think. It broke my heart because these guys were just guys, and they were still in a lot of pain over Bon Scott's death.

And while I am reading all of this, pages and pages of arguing...and I probably quit about page 8...I do have to say something....

If Jesus was wandering around the earth today, I would give my last dollar to bet that he would be hanging out with the boys of AC/DC. Why? Because they would need it...and some of you don't...you already know everything.

[middletree]

KD:

As I said, I brought up the theology aspect of Shout to the Lord because your post was in response to someone's post about modern songs being theologically unsound. So thanks for clarifying.

Not sure I agree that the Cross isn't mentioned, because the first line is "My Jesus, my Savior". But more important is the fact that lots of great songs don't mention the Cross any more specifically than that.

"Great is Thy Faithfulness", "How Great Thou Art", "Amazing Grace". Those tunes don't overtly mention the Cross, just as most Third day songs don't. But they do mention bits of spiritual truth. No one song captures all that God is about.

Also, I'd point out that what are being called "modern" songs are being contrasted with "classic" hymns. The implication (not nesssarily from you) is that the classics are closer to the original church, or disciples, or something. But most of those songs are less than 200 years old. So they were "modern" at one time, and most likely offended some traditionalists at one time. And one day in the not-too-distant future, "Shout to the Lord" will be remembered fondly as a classic, and will make people in their 50's long for the good old days.

[Col. Mustard]

I was looking at the picutures and one of the guys was wearing an Acdc ball cap . Whats with that? Is this the heathen band acdc that sings about their trip down the highway to hell or something else?


Kinda curious....
ooooo! i love that song!!!!! its got a good beat
:D
NO STOP SIGHNS, SPEED LIMITS!!!!!! :D

[Kyle's dad]

KD:
Not sure I agree that the Cross isn't mentioned, because the first line is "My Jesus, my Savior". But more important is the fact that lots of great songs don't mention the Cross any more specifically than that.


When I say that a song doesn't mention the cross, I don't necessarily mean literally mentioning the cross but rather what the cross represents; in a nutshell, Christ taking on or literally becoming the sin of all of mankind and defeating sin, death, and the devil, through His death and ressurection, so that we might have eternal life with the Father. These are excerpts from two of the hyms that you mentioned, and I would consider this mentioning the cross because they speak of what the cross means.

From How Great Thou Art

And when I think, that God, His Son not sparing;
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the Cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin.

From Great is thy Faithfulness

Pardon for sin and a peace that endureth
Thine own dear presence to cheer and to guide;
Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow,
Blessings all mine, with ten thousand beside


Yes "Shout to the Lord" mentions Jesus but what does it say about Him?

My Jesus, My Saviour
Lord there is none like you
All of my days, I want to praise
The wonders of your mighty love
My comfort, My Shelter
Tower of refuge and strength
Let every breath, all that I am
Never cease to worship you

OK, Jesus is her savior. But why? What did He do to save her? OK, there is none like Him. Why? What or who is this comparison being made against? What does He provide comfort and shelter from?

Shout to the Lord, all the earth
Let us sing. Power and majesty, praise to the king.
Mountains bow down and the seas will roar
At the sound of your name
I sing for joy at the work of your hands
Forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand
Nothing compares to the promise I have in you

OK, she's got a little Isaiah 64 thing there with the mountains bowing down and the seas roaring, but why will they bow and roar at His name?

Now compare that to

The Church's one Foundation

The church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ her Lord;
she is his new creation
by water and the Word.
From heaven he came and sought her
to be his holy bride;
with his own blood he bought her,
and for her life he died.


In that you have the doctrine of the church being the bride of Christ. You have baptism and communion, and you have Christ dying so that His "Bride" might have eternal life. And that is just the first stanza.

Or this one by Martin Luther.

Christ Jesus Lay in Death's Strong Bands

Christ Jesus lay in death's strong bands,
For our offenses given;
But now at God's right hand He stands
And brings us life from heaven;
Therefore let us joyful be
And sing to God right thankfully
Loud songs of hallelujah!
Hallelujah

Right there in only one stanza you have sin, death, and the ressurection.

I am not trying to change anybody's mind. If you like "Shout to the Lord" etc. that's fine. But when it comes to worship I prefer something with a little more substance.

As far as Third Day, I don't sing their music in a worship service, except maybe once a year if we have Captive-Free (ELCA youth-led worship team) help us out with VBS, they may lead a worship service and they may do "Your Love oh Lord."

Other than that I listen to Third day in my car or at home, or when I'm playing around with my sons etc.

[Howlin' Wolf]

It's not so much the theology of "Shout to the Lord" that bothers me, but the fact that it just doesn't say much. For example there is one part that says "I want to praise the wonders of your mighty love." I hear that, and I think, so do it. Don't sing about doing it, do it.

It's also pretty much completely void of any real proclamtion. There is no mention of the cross. There is no mention of the ressurection. There is no mention of sin. There is no mention of forgiveness.

The closest Darlene Zsheck comes to proclamation is the line that says "Nothing compares to the promise that I have in you." She mentions the promise, but doesn't really say what it is. Plus she writes of the promise as something God has done for her. And most of the song is sung from that same perspective. Proclamation is telling someone what God had done for them.

This might sound overly-critical, but it's hard for me to really comment on the theology that is in "Shout to the Lord" because there really isn't a whole lot of theology there.
i agree
and all modern praise songs are void of any real theological points. its all sensationalistic crappy music, intended to make people feel good.

[Kyle's dad]

i agree
and all modern praise songs are void of any real theological points. its all sensationalistic crappy music, intended to make people feel good.

Thanks again for the reccomendation on indelible grace. I downloaded a few of the songs from Lime Wire just to check them out. They sound great and I am probably going to be ordering the first 2 IG CDs off of amazon.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Thanks again for the reccomendation on indelible grace. I downloaded a few of the songs from Lime Wire just to check them out. They sound great and I am probably going to be ordering the first 2 IG CDs off of amazon.

awesome!!!!

[DareDevil]

i agree
and all modern praise songs are void of any real theological points. its all sensationalistic crappy music, intended to make people feel good.
I wish we had that problem in our churches here. Over here most church songs are so old and boring that most people would prefer to avoid them completely.. They don't say so though but you can see it in their eyes when the community is singing such a song. Problem is that our pastors here seem to like them but I can definetly not understand why. I mean, are they using them as fillers so that they don't have to prepare a long script for each church service or do they really believe that they belong to a church service???



BTW, how on earth did the discussion shift from ACDC to church songs? :o

[middletree]

BTW, how on earth did the discussion shift from ACDC to church songs? :o

I think it has something to do with Hillsongs and AC/DC both being from Australia.

[imperfect]

I think it has something to do with Hillsongs and AC/DC both being from Australia.

As well as sitting in a church with boring praise and worship can feel like the "Highway to Hell."
J/K
Though I admit to taking a potty break during a dead version of traditional hymn.
Hey and for the record, I like those "crappy" sensational songs that make me feel good. I had enough years of feeling bad in church.

[Kyle's dad]

I wish we had that problem in our churches here. Over here most church songs are so old and boring that most people would prefer to avoid them completely.. They don't say so though but you can see it in their eyes when the community is singing such a song. Problem is that our pastors here seem to like them but I can definetly not understand why.

Well is the problem with the pastors sticking to the traditional "boring" hymns, as you call them, or is it with a laity that is too apathetic to say anything? My guess is that most of these pastors have a music director or organist who is actually picking out most of the hymns. If the laity isn't saying aything, and you admitted they aren't, then I think that's the bigger problem.

Regardless, my criticism of modern praise songs was not so much at the music, but at the lyrics. I have no problem with a contemporary music style in worship. But what I don't like is when the lyrics to a praise song or hymn are lacking in any serious theological truths, as Tulip says.

[Kyle's dad]

I had enough years of feeling bad in church.

With all due respect, this remark is symptomatic of, I believe, one of the biggest problems I have with so much of what I see in big contemporary mega-church worship services. And I am not assuming that you go to a mega-church. I remember, a few weeks ago I was watching dateline and they were doing a piece on mega-churches. Tom Brokaw interviewed this pastor from Colrado Springs, I think his last name was Savage. Brokaw went to one of his services and noticed that, at no point was there any confession of sin or declaration of forgiveness. Brokaw asked the pastor why they didn't do that, and he basically said that because Jesus died on the cross, then they didn't have to think about their own sin any more.

Yes, it's true that we all have the assurance of knowing that, through faith in Christ Jesus, we will one day be able to stand righteous in front of God, and we will one day join Him in eternity. And, I don't want to presume to speak for anyone else. But, I know that for me, sin is something that I struggle with every day, heck every hour, heck every minute, every second. So when I experience confession of sin, I don't mind it at all, because it is always followed by declaration of forgiveness, and in the end I am just reminded that much more of the grace that I have been given through Christ. The light of Christ shines brightest in the darkness.

That is the essence of the problem that I have with so much of the lyrics of contemporary praise songs. They seem to focus so much on making people feel good, that there is rarely if ever any mention of sin or the cross. Yes, they mention Jesus, but the praise is always so vague and ambiguos like calling Him awesome and wonderful, without stating why He is awesome and wonderful or what He did for us or why we need Him.

[DareDevil]

Well is the problem with the pastors sticking to the traditional "boring" hymns, as you call them, or is it with a laity that is too apathetic to say anything? My guess is that most of these pastors have a music director or organist who is actually picking out most of the hymns. If the laity isn't saying aything, and you admitted they aren't, then I think that's the bigger problem.

Regardless, my criticism of modern praise songs was not so much at the music, but at the lyrics. I have no problem with a contemporary music style in worship. But what I don't like is when the lyrics to a praise song or hymn are lacking in any serious theological truths, as Tulip says.
Well, most communities here are rather old which is sad but a fact and most of the old members cannot be bothered to change anything at all. To be honest, I doubt that they are even aware that one should change a few things. It is the old "it has been like that, it is like that and it will stay like that" attitude. :( Our churches here are definetly in a crisis.

[Hawkeye Childs]

i personally think it's awesome that whoever it was was wearing the hat! :) i love classic rock (even though i'm not a huge AC/DC fan)..but hey....i think it's awesome. at least they appreciate other forms of music. and i think it's GREAT that they played some Zeppelin at a concert! to me that makes Third Day even cooler!!!!

i dont find all secular bands evil or sinnful..course i'm a strange one on the boards...but hey...i'm entitled to my own opinion.

[rossid]

Our church has a good mix of traditional hymns and contemporary songs.

:)

[Kyle's dad]

Well, most communities here are rather old which is sad but a fact and most of the old members cannot be bothered to change anything at all. To be honest, I doubt that they are even aware that one should change a few things. It is the old "it has been like that, it is like that and it will stay like that" attitude. :( Our churches here are definetly in a crisis.


Not trying to be argumentative, but maybe they honestly just like things the way they are.

[imperfect]

With all due respect, this remark is symptomatic of, I believe, one of the biggest problems I have with so much of what I see in big contemporary mega-church worship services. And I am not assuming that you go to a mega-church. I remember, a few weeks ago I was watching dateline and they were doing a piece on mega-churches. Tom Brokaw interviewed this pastor from Colrado Springs, I think his last name was Savage. Brokaw went to one of his services and noticed that, at no point was there any confession of sin or declaration of forgiveness. Brokaw asked the pastor why they didn't do that, and he basically said that because Jesus died on the cross, then they didn't have to think about their own sin any more.

Yes, it's true that we all have the assurance of knowing that, through faith in Christ Jesus, we will one day be able to stand righteous in front of God, and we will one day join Him in eternity. And, I don't want to presume to speak for anyone else. But, I know that for me, sin is something that I struggle with every day, heck every hour, heck every minute, every second. So when I experience confession of sin, I don't mind it at all, because it is always followed by declaration of forgiveness, and in the end I am just reminded that much more of the grace that I have been given through Christ. The light of Christ shines brightest in the darkness.

That is the essence of the problem that I have with so much of the lyrics of contemporary praise songs. They seem to focus so much on making people feel good, that there is rarely if ever any mention of sin or the cross. Yes, they mention Jesus, but the praise is always so vague and ambiguos like calling Him awesome and wonderful, without stating why He is awesome and wonderful or what He did for us or why we need Him.

I have read your posts and don't feel as if you are being argumentative or non-flexible. You are just a traditional kinda guy and that's cool.

I have experienced both the Mega and small church environments. I have found God in both, been fed in both and hurt in both. You know the saying, as long as people are in the Church, it won't be perfect.

I have been brought to my knees by both a traditional hymn as well as one of those "feel good" ones such as Chris Tomlin's How Great is Our God. It doesn't say a whole lotta anything, but when one of my best friend's suddenly died last year, I didn't need to hear about the blood of the cross. I was hurt and honestly even mad at God for not sparing his life. I needed to proclaim that even though I didn't feel it at the time, I needed to say:

The splendor of a King, clothed in majesty
Let all the earth rejoice
All the earth rejoice

He wraps himself in Light, and darkness tries to hide
And trembles at His voice
Trembles at His voice

How great is our God, sing with me
How great is our God, and all will see
How great, how great is our God

Age to age He stands
And time is in His hands
Beginning and the end
Beginning and the end

The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son
The Lion and the Lamb
The Lion and the Lamb

Name above all names
Worthy of our praise
My heart will sing
How great is our God

How great is our God, sing with me
How great is our God, and all will see
How great, how great is our God

I want my kids to open their minds and spirits to the traditional hymns as well as contemporary worship. I have found as we study the story behind the hymns they appreciate it more. But they would still prefer the Sonicflood version of it over Andy Griffith :)

[Howlin' Wolf]

i want my kids to not base their spiritual growth on how often they get God goosebumps and how good church makes them feel

kyle's dad and i arent being argumentative or non-flexible. we just have no room for fluff in our lives or our churches

[Grank]

i want my kids to not base their spiritual growth on how often they get God goosebumps and how good church makes them feel

kyle's dad and i arent being argumentative or non-flexible. we just have no room for fluff in our lives or our churches

Fluff... like whinney the pooh, he was stuffed with fluff.

[middletree]

i want my kids to not base their spiritual growth on how often they get God goosebumps and how good church makes them feel


You got kids?

Anyway, I agree with you here.

kyle's dad and i arent being argumentative or non-flexible. we just have no room for fluff in our lives or our churches

I agree with you, but I don't agree with you about specific songs being fluff.

[mcgreen311]

what a useful sermon that will bring sinners into repentance aand equip the listeners to go out and reach their community


I'm guessing that was sarcasm? I didn't post the entire extent of the message, because it was a hijack.

[lilmikey]

Not saying that those contempory praise songs are bad im not even suggesting that but most of that stuff just entertains me. I want more than just entertainment. I want feel the living presence of God when I listen to worship music. A need to be honest there are very few Third Day songs that do that. Most of their stuff is feel good entertainment to me. That does not mean I wil stop listening to them though

[TLJ]

One of the most over-rated Rock bands ever.

They only had 3 good CDs. Their other CDs are pathetic.

1. "Who Made Who" CD
2. "Blow Up your Video" CD
3. "Back in Black" CD

Everything else = Over-rated Rock.

This is funny to me. Back when they made them, they were called Albums....gosh I'm old....

[TLJ]

'Criticism can be a nasty thing. We've all been on the giving and receiving ends of it, and even for the giver it's never pretty. However, it’s amazing how critical believers can be of one another at times. It's as if when we receive salvation, we are given the authority to hold everyone around us accountable, according to our own personal convictions and ideals. Sometimes we can give off the impression that we 'know it all'! Dealing with criticism is never easy and “How Do You Know” asks the question, 'How do you know what I'm supposed to be doing?” The tone of the chorus lyrics might give off a bit of a sharp attitude but the real expression of the song is a simple, honest question: 'How DO you know?' It's not to say that the line between sin and righteousness needs to be blurred, but often times there is more than one righteous, Godly response or action to take, i.e.: do I take this job, or that job?; should we put our kids in public school or home school them?; should we take our music to the mainstream audience or stay where it's safe? These are just a few examples of questions that no one but God and ourselves can really work out. Our job as fellow believers is to pray for one another and ask God to impart his wisdom to his saints. The high horse of legalism and piousness needs to be led to the water and drowned. When that happens, the freedom of God's grace as expressed through the church will change the face of our culture.' – David Carr (Third Day)

And that horse, unfortunately, is a good swimmer.

[Pouye]

To my ears, AC/DC sucks. The current lead singer sounds like he has a frog in his throat -- gutteral and scratchy sounding. But this is just my educated opinion - for to another he sounds like an angel from heaven (how, God only knows!)

Also, I personally don't respect anyone who writes and sings lyrics that are satanic or have satanic themes, even if the band members aren't "really" Satanists, but instead just punks who like to sing about the devil, illicit sex, rebellion, suicide etc. to make millions of dollars.

Heavy metal bands are laughable to watch, too... they jump around and look like complete idiots... like fake WWF wrestlers putting on a big act (and bad acting is another thing I've always disliked, by the way). For some people this is entertaining -- but I don't see how.

I'll take anything genuine.

Music is communication. What it communicates varies per individual, but overtly satanic lyrics, images and themes are not good for the soul of a believer... for the Bible is clear that we are to think not on things that are evil but rather on those things which are good, pure and wholesome in God's sight.

Visual/Audio signals themselves are not evil. They must be received and interpreted/decoded by each individual. I hear a song like "Hells Bells" and it sounds like cheesy satanic lyrics pounded away by worldly dudes who don't give a rip about Jesus. That's all I hear. They have the right to be in the world and do their worldly music... for God will be their judge, not me. As for me, I will focus my attention on Christ in music that honors Him. This is the same reason I don't watch TV. There is truly nothing on, trust me. After being away from TV (yes, completely) for over 2 and a half years and then watching it at a friends house, I can't believe anyone with an IQ of more than 3 can enjoy most of what is coming out of that box. To each his own.

People love to try to justify themselves and the things they like to do. I know I do. Over the years I've justified all kinds of garbage. But I'll tell you a secret directly from God's Word -- there is nothing like consciously and continually making Jesus your treasure. Whenever He leads me to places in my heart that are not surrendered to Him, He does so for my own good to make me more like Jesus. I'm grateful for how He continually works in me and other believers -- convicting of sin, healing their hearts, binding up the broken and shattered pieces of our hearts.

Some of you might be thinking that I am one of those people who thinks AC/DC or KISS might affect a mature Christian and influence them to the dark side. I say, no way. Mature Christians have their foundations in Christ, and they can see past all of the "bling bling" and not be afraid of secular music, TV, or whatever. However, the various media of the secular world does influence even mature Christians -- and those who are too prideful to admit that are the ones who are suckered.

Rock

[shelleybeansMAN]

i want my kids to not base their spiritual growth on how often they get God goosebumps and how good church makes them feel

kyle's dad and i arent being argumentative or non-flexible. we just have no room for fluff in our lives or our churches

Agreed... but let's not forget that praise and worship is about GOD, to GOD, and for GOD. Worship is adoration of our Father, not necessarily for spiritual growth... and I dont see singing or talking about how great GOD is as being " fluff " You know, it's not hard to imagine David as a boy singing " How great is our GOD " PS. 113 comes to mind...

[imperfect]

To my ears, AC/DC sucks. The current lead singer sounds like he has a frog in his throat -- gutteral and scratchy sounding. But this is just my educated opinion - for to another he sounds like an angel from heaven (how, God only knows!)

Also, I personally don't respect anyone who writes and sings lyrics that are satanic or have satanic themes, even if the band members aren't "really" Satanists, but instead just punks who like to sing about the devil, illicit sex, rebellion, suicide etc. to make millions of dollars.

Heavy metal bands are laughable to watch, too... they jump around and look like complete idiots... like fake WWF wrestlers putting on a big act (and bad acting is another thing I've always disliked, by the way). For some people this is entertaining -- but I don't see how.

I'll take anything genuine.

Music is communication. What it communicates varies per individual, but overtly satanic lyrics, images and themes are not good for the soul of a believer... for the Bible is clear that we are to think not on things that are evil but rather on those things which are good, pure and wholesome in God's sight.

Visual/Audio signals themselves are not evil. They must be received and interpreted/decoded by each individual. I hear a song like "Hells Bells" and it sounds like cheesy satanic lyrics pounded away by worldly dudes who don't give a rip about Jesus. That's all I hear. They have the right to be in the world and do their worldly music... for God will be their judge, not me. As for me, I will focus my attention on Christ in music that honors Him. This is the same reason I don't watch TV. There is truly nothing on, trust me. After being away from TV (yes, completely) for over 2 and a half years and then watching it at a friends house, I can't believe anyone with an IQ of more than 3 can enjoy most of what is coming out of that box. To each his own.

People love to try to justify themselves and the things they like to do. I know I do. Over the years I've justified all kinds of garbage. But I'll tell you a secret directly from God's Word -- there is nothing like consciously and continually making Jesus your treasure. Whenever He leads me to places in my heart that are not surrendered to Him, He does so for my own good to make me more like Jesus. I'm grateful for how He continually works in me and other believers -- convicting of sin, healing their hearts, binding up the broken and shattered pieces of our hearts.

Some of you might be thinking that I am one of those people who thinks AC/DC or KISS might affect a mature Christian and influence them to the dark side. I say, no way. Mature Christians have their foundations in Christ, and they can see past all of the "bling bling" and not be afraid of secular music, TV, or whatever. However, the various media of the secular world does influence even mature Christians -- and those who are too prideful to admit that are the ones who are suckered.

Rock

I like your thinking and how you communicate your thoughts so eloquently.

As I have matured, my tastes in everything are more diverse and refined. And I admit that there are times when I am on the road there is nothing I love more than listening to loud music and singing along while I am driving. But there are so many artists releasing positive music in all genres, I don't feel the need to support the ones with vulgar lyrics and themes. I also believe the radio spoon feeds its listeners for the record labels' sake, so I make a concerted effort to find independent or unique artists who appeal to me.

Now when I was in high school I became so disillusioned with the world, my parents, school and the church, that I lobbied really hard to have Highway to Hell as our graduation song. I was even an officer in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes! Thankfully, I lost my case. However, during my first high school reunion, my class president shared the story of how "little miss born again" lobbied to have that song as our class song. I heckled him back saying "Hey buddie, if the shoe fits!"

Now every five years it's a running joke at our reunion and last time I actually got up and karaoked it. I did the whole running all over the stage and flipped my hair and skipped across stage like they do. Next time the Girls and I are thinking about wearing that dumb tie and knickers with bobby socks. They all know how much I love Jesus, but I am secure enough in myself and Him to be the object of such hilarity. :0

I gave up TV for 12 yrs. None in the house. In 1999, I bought one. There's alot of some good stuff on there and love the parental control features. But I listen more to Internet and Satellite radio than have the TV on. Now during UNC basketball season, girlfriend develops ricketts.

Do they have TV in New Guinea? Can you watch Panthers football? UNC basketball? If not, I would pitch the box too!

[Pouye]

I like your thinking and how you communicate your thoughts so eloquently.

As I have matured, my tastes in everything are more diverse and refined. And I admit that there are times when I am on the road there is nothing I love more than listening to loud music and singing along while I am driving. But there are so many artists releasing positive music in all genres, I don't feel the need to support the ones with vulgar lyrics and themes. I also believe the radio spoon feeds its listeners for the record labels' sake, so I make a concerted effort to find independent or unique artists who appeal to me.

Now when I was in high school I became so disillusioned with the world, my parents, school and the church, that I lobbied really hard to have Highway to Hell as our graduation song. I was even an officer in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes! Thankfully, I lost my case. However, during my first high school reunion, my class president shared the story of how "little miss born again" lobbied to have that song as our class song. I heckled him back saying "Hey buddie, if the shoe fits!"

Now every five years it's a running joke at our reunion and last time I actually got up and karaoked it. I did the whole running all over the stage and flipped my hair and skipped across stage like they do. Next time the Girls and I are thinking about wearing that dumb tie and knickers with bobby socks. They all know how much I love Jesus, but I am secure enough in myself and Him to be the object of such hilarity. :0

I gave up TV for 12 yrs. None in the house. In 1999, I bought one. There's alot of some good stuff on there and love the parental control features. But I listen more to Internet and Satellite radio than have the TV on. Now during UNC basketball season, girlfriend develops ricketts.

Do they have TV in New Guinea? Can you watch Panthers football? UNC basketball? If not, I would pitch the box too!

You are a good communicator, yourself... not to mention honest. I enjoy reading your posts.

I do agree that as Christians we have a lot of freedom. This planet, even in its fallen state, is absolutely beautiful, and it took me a while to realize that God wants his children to enjoy Him and His incredible creation. There are things in secular and Christian circles that I enjoy making fun of.


Now every five years it's a running joke at our reunion and last time I actually got up and karaoked it. I did the whole running all over the stage and flipped my hair and skipped across stage like they do. Next time the Girls and I are thinking about wearing that dumb tie and knickers with bobby socks. They all know how much I love Jesus, but I am secure enough in myself and Him to be the object of such hilarity. :0


I love it!!!

I was called "irreverent" one time because I was in a Charismatic meeting (it hadn't started yet) and I started chanting, "should'a-bought-a-honda" (just to be goofy). One of the ladies came unglued and told me if I don't believe in the gift of tongues to stop making fun of others who do. I replied that, in all actuality, I do believe in the gift... I was just having a little fun. I apologized, of course - but it was one of those, "I guess I should say I'm sorry for her sake, even though I don't feel like I did anything wrong" moments.

Rock

[Gandalf]

I was called "irreverent" one time because I was in a Charismatic meeting (it hadn't started yet) and I started chanting, "should'a-bought-a-honda" (just to be goofy). One of the ladies came unglued and told me if I don't believe in the gift of tongues to stop making fun of others who do. I replied that, in all actuality, I do believe in the gift... I was just having a little fun. I apologized, of course - but it was one of those, "I guess I should say I'm sorry for her sake, even though I don't feel like I did anything wrong" moments.
Well, of course you offended people, suggesting that you prefer foreign cars! What did you expect? ;)

[Chaser]

Well, most communities here are rather old which is sad but a fact and most of the old members cannot be bothered to change anything at all. To be honest, I doubt that they are even aware that one should change a few things. It is the old "it has been like that, it is like that and it will stay like that" attitude. :( Our churches here are definetly in a crisis.

So true, my Church here in Sweden is suffering badly from lack of attendance and seeing as I am from a very vibarant Church in Canada it makes me wonder if we listen to much to the elder deacons too much and not listen to the young voices of the Church, our future.

[Pouye]

Well, of course you offended people, suggesting that you prefer foreign cars! What did you expect? ;)

Come to think of it, she did drive an older cadillac... ;)

Rock

[DareDevil]

To my ears, AC/DC sucks. The current lead singer sounds like he has a frog in his throat -- gutteral and scratchy sounding. But this is just my educated opinion - for to another he sounds like an angel from heaven (how, God only knows!)

(...)

Well, I wouldn't call his voice an "angel's voice" but it is raw and intense... and I like it. But hey, I also like Motorhead. :o ;)


Heavy metal bands are laughable to watch, too... they jump around and look like complete idiots... like fake WWF wrestlers putting on a big act (and bad acting is another thing I've always disliked, by the way). For some people this is entertaining -- but I don't see how.
*puts on a live DVD from Manowar*

[Pouye]

Well, I wouldn't call his voice an "angel's voice" but it is raw and intense... and I like it. But hey, I also like Motorhead. :o ;)



*puts on a live DVD from Manowar*

I guess some people enjoy being screamed at...;)

I somewhat understand... I used to listen to Petra as a teen (This Means War!). I still think Greg X Volz is a better vocalist than John Schlitt, because I do tend to prefer smoother vocals. Maybe that is why I like Third Day.

Rock

[DareDevil]

You could have a point there. :p ;)

But seriously, usually I prefer clean(er) vocals too and both ACDC and Motorhead are definetly on the rougher end of my personal musical preferences. Still, that is what it boils down to: personal musical preferences

We all have more or less different personal musical preferences. We don't have to understand why one likes this style or that style but I do think that people have to be able to tolerate other people's preferences there. This does not mean that we should be forced to remain quiet about our personal likes/dislikes for the sake of "not offending anybody" though. Everybody should be allowed to say that a paticular band rocks or sucks without being called an idiot and without having to worry about a fanboy who reacts upon a critical comment on "his fav band" like you have just insulted his mom. Personally I would even say that such extreme "band worshipping" is a form of idolatry. I can only shake my head for instance when I see pics of how grown up people have turned their living room into a kind of temple for a band. That's just not right imho.

[HotWireD]

Isaiah 14:4

Lastly show me where the Bible says Lucifer and Satan are the same being.

I agree - 'lucifer' is a Greek word, I wonder how it gets into the Hebrew texts.

lucifer - the Shining One.
The hebrew word translated that appears to be causing some confusion is HEYLEL, which I think means 'golden/golden one' or 'shining one', or 'light bearer' (one of the first brands of matches were called 'lucifers').

lucifer - the morning star.
The 'shining one' also relates to the planet Venus, which rises with the Sun in the morning (bearing news of the light to come - like an early alarm clock for sunrise).

In the Latin translation of the Hebew texts
Isaiah 14:12 "Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" (note: no capital letter).

2 Peter 1:19 (KJV) 'We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the 'day star' ('lucifer') arise in you hearts'. I do not know what other people interpret this to mean, but it appears to me that the word 'lucifer' ('day star') in this verse is describing Jesus.

Young's literal Translation of the Holy Bible translates the same verse as:
(2 Peter 1:19) 'And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise - in your hearts'. (Young's 'literal' just directly translates the words (in Hebrew, aramaic, or Greek) directly into English, making no attempt at punctuation or meaning).

John Milton's Paradise Lost - an epic poem from the 1500's (or thereabouts) mentions the fall of Lucifer (the battle between Lucifer and the Heavenly Host). Although it is a powerful poem, it is not part of the biblical texts (obviously).

They came, and Satan to his Royal seat
High on a Hill, far blazing, as a Mount
Rais'd on a Mount, with Pyramids and Towrs
From Diamond Quarries hew'n, and Rocks of Gold,
The Palace of great Lucifer, (so call
That Structure in the Dialect of men
Interpreted) which not long after, he
Affecting all equality with God,
In imitation of that Mount whereon
Messiah was declar'd in sight of Heav'n,
The Mountain of the Congregation call'd;
For thither he assembl'd all his Train,
Pretending so commanded to consult
About the great reception of thir King,
Thither to come, and with calumnious Art
Of counterfeted truth thus held thir ears.
(In Olde English).

This uses the word 'Lucifer' with a capital letter, whereas the entries in the Holy Bible (Greek Scriptures) uses it without a capital, as a descriptive word, not a name.

Another entry in Paradise Lost - 'Quantus in ætheriis tollit se Lucifer armis!
Atque ipso graditur vix Michaele minor!' (Capital letter for 'Lucifer' (name), capital letter for 'Michael' (also name).

I cannot add any commentary to Paradise Lost, although it is a great read (particularly the creation of ADM) I enjoy it but do not particularly understand all the Biblical references. C. S. Lewis did fine with his.

References
Lewis, C. S. Perelandra: A Novel. New York: Macmillan, 1958, c1944.

Lewis, C. S. A Preface to Paradise Lost. New York: Oxford University Press, 1956.

Lewis, C. S. Http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/intro/text.shtml
(This link (quotes from C. S. Lewis also links to the poem itself).

I apologise for posting a section of a previous post on the same subject.

[HotWireD]

This is funny to me. Back when they made them, they were called Albums....gosh I'm old....

And we would reverentially remove them from their 'covers', carefully wipe the dust from the 'grooves' and place them on the 'turntable' and lower the 'needle' down onto the 'vinyl'.

And they had music on both sides (I think some CDs do too).

It was also much harder to mislay an 'Album' than a 'CD'.

Ironically, if (when) the world collapses, CDs will be unplayable (requiring electrictity and lasers). 'Albums' will be able to be played even without electricity a revolving turntable and a needle and a cone of paper is all that is required). So the last music played may be on an 'Album' and definately not on a CD.

[faithwalker_98]

I know for me, the Lord dealt with myself and music years back and for me, it's because He wanted me to put life in my thinking and life. I cant say for others what they should or shouldn't do, Since that time when I was told by God to throw the AC/DC stuff away and Ozzy Osbourne stuff away and so on it is because life and death are in the power of the tongue. I only listen to Christian music because I don't want to be cursed from a world of death as this world is. We have to be in the world but as the Word of God states not of it. So I have to say we all need to be careful with what we listen to, say, or even write down because if we are not we could be cursing someone with a word that speaks to them in the area of death. I am not saying that someone would die right now, if I called them a jerk or idiot. But in a manner of time if I continue to do that they will become depressed and frustrated with their lives and if they don't go to God about it the their whole lives will be worse. The thing is that it all stemmed from me speakin curses over their lives. Music does speak and it could speak over our lives so we need to be careful. Later all

[Grank]

i wonder if some ppl are immune to that word/curse of death then... cuz i don't think anybody could cause me ot get depressed with words unless it was somebody i cared about.

[Pouye]

i wonder if some ppl are immune to that word/curse of death then... cuz i don't think anybody could cause me ot get depressed with words unless it was somebody i cared about.

That's right, Grank... you are wearing your immunity amulet. All oppressive lyrics and words, when they hit that amulet, are magically transformed into Ultra-High-Frequency (UHF) photon waves which are then beamed back into outer space. The problem is, the poor alien Yengthala on planet Antherios just got hit by one of those rays and is now far too depressed to visit Earth. She will postpone her journey now, and I will not get to see her in my lifetime... all because of you.

And that just makes me mad. :mad:

Rock

[imperfect]

That's right, Grank... you are wearing your immunity amulet. All oppressive lyrics and words, when they hit that amulet, are magically transformed into Ultra-High-Frequency (UHF) photon waves which are then beamed back into outer space. The problem is, the poor alien Yengthala on planet Antherios just got hit by one of those rays and is now far too depressed to visit Earth. She will postpone her journey now, and I will not get to see her in my lifetime... all because of you.

And that just makes me mad. :mad:

Rock

Rock - see what happens when u give up TV?
:p

You boys have fun. - Angie

[meak]

i know i'm coming in on the tail end of this thread, but i read a few pages and just had to respond. sorry if you've already moved past this.

someone made that comment that "if Jesus wouldn't do it then it is a sin". i don't believe that to be true. i can't see Jesus going out and riding go-carts with the boys, or heading out to watch monday night football throwing up high fives and yelling when his team makes some big plays. i can't see Jesus watching shrek, finding nemo or any television, for that matter. i can't see Jesus standing in front of a mirror fixing his hair to make sure it looks good before he leaves the house. i can't see Jesus going to theme parks riding a rollercoaster. i can't see Jesus skydiving or bungee jumping. i can't see Jesus doing a lot of things us humans do for entertainment. these things are fleshly desires. it doesn't make these things a sin, though. if you're going to tell me not to listen to secular music then you better make sure that you don't watch secular television, buy secular books from secular stores. if you tell me it's a sin to listen to secular music and you go to the theater and watch secular movies(even if they are G), stay at home and watch secular shows, or buy secular books then you are a hypocrite. something else, i don't think God would make degrading remarks towards others and say things like "well that may be fine if you're a baby christian, but once you've matured i don't see how you could hang on to such things". i say that is religion and i don't care to be that way. work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling. ;)

[Jaymze13]

Well, I wouldn't call his voice an "angel's voice" but it is raw and intense... and I like it. But hey, I also like Motorhead. :o ;)
*puts on a live DVD from Manowar*

Lemmy. Now THERE'S an angelic voice!! LOLOLOL!!

Manowar.......... "H*** On Earth" part whatever?

[Hawkeye Childs]

i know i'm coming in on the tail end of this thread, but i read a few pages and just had to respond. sorry if you've already moved past this.

someone made that comment that "if Jesus wouldn't do it then it is a sin". i don't believe that to be true. i can't see Jesus going out and riding go-carts with the boys, or heading out to watch monday night football throwing up high fives and yelling when his team makes some big plays. i can't see Jesus watching shrek, finding nemo or any television, for that matter. i can't see Jesus standing in front of a mirror fixing his hair to make sure it looks good before he leaves the house. i can't see Jesus going to theme parks riding a rollercoaster. i can't see Jesus skydiving or bungee jumping. i can't see Jesus doing a lot of things us humans do for entertainment. these things are fleshly desires. it doesn't make these things a sin, though. if you're going to tell me not to listen to secular music then you better make sure that you don't watch secular television, buy secular books from secular stores. if you tell me it's a sin to listen to secular music and you go to the theater and watch secular movies(even if they are G), stay at home and watch secular shows, or buy secular books then you are a hypocrite. something else, i don't think God would make degrading remarks towards others and say things like "well that may be fine if you're a baby christian, but once you've matured i don't see how you could hang on to such things". i say that is religion and i don't care to be that way. work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling. ;)


YES! thank you thank you thank you! EXACTLY!...exactly what i wanted to say....thank you! i totally agree with you

[JoFro1524]

i know i'm coming in on the tail end of this thread, but i read a few pages and just had to respond. sorry if you've already moved past this.

someone made that comment that "if Jesus wouldn't do it then it is a sin". i don't believe that to be true. i can't see Jesus going out and riding go-carts with the boys, or heading out to watch monday night football throwing up high fives and yelling when his team makes some big plays. i can't see Jesus watching shrek, finding nemo or any television, for that matter. i can't see Jesus standing in front of a mirror fixing his hair to make sure it looks good before he leaves the house. i can't see Jesus going to theme parks riding a rollercoaster. i can't see Jesus skydiving or bungee jumping. i can't see Jesus doing a lot of things us humans do for entertainment. these things are fleshly desires. it doesn't make these things a sin, though. if you're going to tell me not to listen to secular music then you better make sure that you don't watch secular television, buy secular books from secular stores. if you tell me it's a sin to listen to secular music and you go to the theater and watch secular movies(even if they are G), stay at home and watch secular shows, or buy secular books then you are a hypocrite. something else, i don't think God would make degrading remarks towards others and say things like "well that may be fine if you're a baby christian, but once you've matured i don't see how you could hang on to such things". i say that is religion and i don't care to be that way. work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling. ;)
I agree with this and thats a very good way to say it. I see lots of people listening to secular music such as AC/DC for the instrumentals and not for lyrics... this still does not make it right because your still exposing yourself to lyrics that can be harmful to your walk. But thats how I see most people get hooked on bands such as that. I have struggle with the very same thing myself with listening to band suchs as Lynyrd Skynyrd and Jimi Hendrix not for the lyrics but for the instrumentals, mostly the guitar. But i have found that musically speaking their is a christian band with the same or close to the same instrumentals as that secular band. Thank God for Third Day's music! :D

[Grank]

you think third day musically sounds any secular bands? i haven't heard any band that has the sound of metallica, jimi, ac/dc or trivium. I always hear ppl say when they wanna listen to something secular they put in somethign christian that souns like it but i don't know of any really good christian rock bands... only ones i can think of are kutless(not very hard), skillet(ok, but not very hard either), third day(not rock), thousand foot krutch(once again, soft), and 12 stones... if anybody can help i'd appreciate it...

[SmileyFreak1981]

you think third day musically sounds any secular bands? i haven't heard any band that has the sound of metallica, jimi, ac/dc or trivium. I always hear ppl say when they wanna listen to something secular they put in somethign christian that souns like it but i don't know of any really good christian rock bands... only ones i can think of are kutless(not very hard), skillet(ok, but not very hard either), third day(not rock), thousand foot krutch(once again, soft), and 12 stones... if anybody can help i'd appreciate it...
Skillet isn't very hard, and Third Day isn't rock??? Whuuuh?? :confused:

Ever heard Underoath, or Zao? Disciple? :cool: Just some suggestions...

[Grank]

there are people under country labels that are more rock then third day is now... underoath isnt the best musically talented band... skillet only has one album i like, the other ones i thought were poorly done... i like disciple, they're from around my area and i've heard them in conert many times. i really like how they conduct their shows. i don't know of zao... i'll look into them though, thanks.

[Kyle's dad]

you think third day musically sounds any secular bands? i haven't heard any band that has the sound of metallica, jimi, ac/dc or trivium. ..



Dude, do some research. Check out Living Sacrifice, Demon Hunter, Training for Utopia, Theocracy, Extol, Mindrage etc. The bands are out there. These guys make Metallica sound tame.

[Grank]

Dude, do some research. Check out Living Sacrifice, Demon Hunter, Training for Utopia, Theocracy, Extol, Mindrage etc. The bands are out there. These guys make Metallica sound tame.
demon hunter i know... they're not bad... i'm not exactly look'n for a bad that makes metallica look tame... i know a lot of bands that can do that... i'm jsut say'n i don't know of any Christian songs with the riffs, drive, and solos of songs like master of puppets, for whom the bell tolls, hero of the day, one, or sanitarium... but thanks for the other bands... it's always fun listening to a band that's new to you

[Squid]

Acca Dacca are great! And just for the record, Jesus hung out with hookers and tax collectors, I'm sure the boys from Acca Dacca would have been good company for him too!
As Christians, we are meant to be in the world, but not of the world. How are we to reach the lost if we cannot communicate with them? We need to understand where they are at, and what makes them tick. We need to hang out with them. They are not going to come to the church, the church has to go to them.
In regards to the issue of clothing, we should all walk around nude, because I have no doubt whatsoever that at least some of the money we spend on clothing would be going to some non believer.
So here's the plan: we all go and build little stick houses and live as hermits.
I think you can see what I am getting at.
Time to put some Soulfly on and get this place rocking... actually I'd better not, it's 3am....

[Squid]

One more thought before I go to bed. I don't know if anyone here is a Paul Colman fan, but he wrote a song called 'My Brother Jack'. I was privelidged enough to hear him explaining the story of it, and it was moving to say the least. Here's the lyrics:

We got into the car with the true believers
We could tell they were by the words they spoke
They were talking of Jesus and all He was doing
They were sharing their favourites from the Holy Book
And I was with them every step of the way
'Cause I'm a believer saved by grace
And they didn't know in the back seat was my brother Jack

We travelled on the 2 hour journey
Singing along to gospel radio
The my brother Jack quite unexpected said
"Do you mind if I listen to my favourite band?"
And maybe it was when the singer let out a word
Four syllables long and not ever heard
In their church circles
That the believer's attacked

How could you play music that evil?
How could you speak of someone's mother like that?
Whatever is pure, whatever is holy
We think on these things "so here's your record back!"
And maybe it was just 'cause we arrived at the place
My fellow believer's didn't see his face
But red was the anger all over my brother Jack

Well I pulled then aside just before our performance
And told them the story of my brother Jack
He's not a believer but one who is searching
And I told him that Jesus loves him where he's at
And when I was speaking well suddenly I
Wondered if we, really knew why
Millions of people felt like my brother Jack
They've come to our churches and there not coming back
Please God save our souls
And my sweet brother Jack

[Evanescence]

IF IT HAS DRUMS...IT'S EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

IT'S STRAIGHT FROM THE PIT OF HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Healing Oil]

IF IT HAS DRUMS...IT'S EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

IT'S STRAIGHT FROM THE PIT OF HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Who said that? Now Ive come from churches who (though they wouldnt specifically say it in those words) pretty much believed this. But who here said that?

Did I miss it?

[Howlin' Wolf]

IF IT HAS DRUMS...IT'S EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

IT'S STRAIGHT FROM THE PIT OF HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

ha ha ha ha

[Evanescence]

Sorry I had to...

It's the Southern Baptist coming out in me...:rolleyes: :cool:

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Sorry I had to...

It's the Southern Baptist coming out in me...:rolleyes: :cool:

Southern Baptists don't mind drums, as long as they're played with straws instead of sticks.

[TheBus36(Retired)]

I cannot believe this thing started in November and is still going. Aren't we a bunch.

[Joshua24:15]

I'm amused by Brian's revision of Tulip's post.

'ha ha ha ha'

That's classic... and he even kept the spirit by using no capitalization or punctuation. Well done, I must say.
I cannot believe this thing started in November and is still going. Aren't we a bunch.
A bunch of what?

[Gandalf]

That part was original. I just removed a line.

[Joshua24:15]

That part was original. I just removed a line.

It was? I recall it only being the insult, but perhaps I'm so conditioned to his posts that I just tuned that part out. That must be it. ;)

[kiwisongbird]

Just talking with Andre (13) about music today - we don't listen to much non-Christian in our house - if it is then it's jazz - Sarah Vaghan, Ella Fitzgerald etc or in Kevin and Andre's case then it's Bruce Springsteen! Nicodemus (11) and I love to listen to Beethoven, Bach etc as well but some classical music is of course church music anyways...

There is so much Christian music around now - man! 20 years ago it was just about impossible to find any 'fun' Christian music...

Andre said he would like to get some old punk music and both K and I said that we wouldn't really like him to listen to that - for me, personally it's cos it would arouse too much of the 'old man' (or woman) in me!!

You can listen to Day of Fire or Kutlass and enjoy heavy music where the anger is directed at Satan - we (and we think Andre agrees - at least at this stage he does) don't think you need to listen to heavy music with depressing or negative lyrics when there is so much cool music with more positive results in the lyrics...

My twenty cents worth :) :) :)

PS: We have friends here who beleive the drums are evil thing and their kids now are getting into all sorts of strange music - we've been much more relaxed with our kids and they mostly still listen to what we enjoy!!!! :) :)

[Howlin' Wolf]

once you listen to the white stripes, its impossible to give anything else modern the time of day

[mikedevilsfan]

once you listen to the white stripes, its impossible to give anything else modern the time of day
Yeah I noticed that from your website, maybe you should listen to some bands that preach truth?
Michael

[lilmikey]

My Pastor told me that the reason the drums used to be considered a sin was because the church wanted people to concentrate on the words not the beat. When the music is so loud that you cant understand the lyrics. I think that it's wrong.



thats my 2 cents

[Gandalf]

once you listen to the white stripes, its impossible to give anything else modern the time of day
Every good rock 'n roll band needs a bass player ;)

[Grank]

Every good rock 'n roll band needs a bass player ;)
signed

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yeah I noticed that from your website, maybe you should listen to some bands that preach truth?
Michael

maybe you should debate me. you make some big statements that youve yet to back up. you can debate me here, my blog, pm...whatever

if i want to hear truth preached, i'll go to church or listen to a hymn. i will not listen to this fluff known as CCM

[mikedevilsfan]

maybe you should debate me. you make some big statements that youve yet to back up. you can debate me here, my blog, pm...whatever

if i want to hear truth preached, i'll go to church or listen to a hymn. i will not listen to this fluff known as CCM

Just what excactly is fluff about CCM the lyrics? I am interseted in this answer.
If it's the musical style you mention, perhaps Demon Hunter, Extol or pillar are less fluff.
Tell me what's fluff about it.
Michael

[Howlin' Wolf]

Just what excactly is fluff about CCM the lyrics? I am interseted in this answer.
If it's the musical style you mention, perhaps Demon Hunter, Extol or pillar are less fluff.
Tell me what's fluff about it.
Michael

7 lines 11 times

[mikedevilsfan]

What does that mean?
Michael

[Howlin' Wolf]

What does that mean?
Michael

figure it out yourself

sincerly,
tulip the hymn snob

[mcgreen311]

My Pastor told me that the reason the drums used to be considered a sin was because the church wanted people to concentrate on the words not the beat. When the music is so loud that you cant understand the lyrics. I think that it's wrong.



thats my 2 cents

I can tell you from my fairly conservative Christian college days that it also might lead to more than tapping your foot to the beat. It works its way up to hip swaying which leads to other other things...The first year I was there, they had someone give lectures on how some music was evil, but that's another story.

I must say, I like some kicking percussion every now and then.

[mikedevilsfan]

I can tell you from my fairly conservative Christian college days that it also might lead to more than tapping your foot to the beat. It works its way up to hip swaying which leads to other other things...The first year I was there, they had someone give lectures on how some music was evil, but that's another story.

I must say, I like some kicking percussion every now and then.

there is not a shred of evidence anywhere to support that drums do anything one way or another. After God partd the Red sea you know what Miraim did? She beat a drum (tamboril). That's right the first drummer was a woman.
Michael

[mcgreen311]

there is not a shred of evidence anywhere to support that drums do anything one way or another. After God partd the Red sea you know what Miraim did? She beat a drum (tamboril). That's right the first drummer was a woman.
Michael
You mean it wasn't Sheila E? That's not even funny. I should probably delete, but I won't. Btw, I hope you didn't think I was advocating that drums were evil. I can't tell if your comment is directed at me or the college, because as I said, I do like some good percussion and that's not just a drum set. I'd like a nice section with congas and bodhrans...anyway.

I guess if the other side was arguing, they might say that the drum beat of Miriam was probably only a steady quarter note beat or something. My school did have an orchestra with timpanis, so they can't be opposed to a beat entirely. Come to think of it, you could consider the piano a percussion instrument as well. None of these would have a beat conducive to dancing, though. But, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Oh, I just took in your first sentence. So if you hear a really awesome percussion line, you don't start grooving?

ETA: I think I caught all the typos, but if you see a stray one, snag it for me, please.

[Yippy]

You mean it wasn't Sheila E? That's not even funny. I should probably delete, but I won't.
I thought it was funny. I took conga lessons from a guy who studied with her father, Pete. I wasn't very good. I'm counting on a drum section in heaven for us drummer wannabes who have no rhythm here. David has my dream job.:)

[mcgreen311]

I thought it was funny. I took conga lessons from a guy who studied with her father, Pete. I wasn't very good. I'm counting on a drum section in heaven for us drummer wannabes who have no rhythm here. David has my dream job.:)

Aw...thanks. I'm thinking we should have time to try out all the instruments. There's a few I've been longing to play. And just for you, here is a smiley. :D

[Drummer Dude Go]

When the music is so loud that you cant understand the lyrics. I think that it's wrong.
I'm a drummer myself, so I cant say that drums are "Evil," but I do hate it when people are driving down my dead end street in the middle of the night, just so they can show off that thier base notes can be played so loud that you cant hear anything in the song, not the words or any other instruments, all you hear is the beat, and it is so annoying! Especially at 12:00 at night, when I am trying to SLEEP! I dont know if thoose people ever sleep or not-maybe they dont know what sleeping is, because they are seen (And heard) driving all over town, thier stereos booming and vibrating cars around them all day and all night. The police around here give about 200 tickets per week just for loud stereos, and our town only has 14,000 people in it! You would think theese people would turn thier stereos down, but they never learn! I like to hear EVERYTHING in my music, the lyrics, and ALL the instruments, not just the thump of the base drum, even though I myself played base drum in the marching band last season ('05 football season).
GO 24/48!! WAR EAGLE!! God Bless You All!!:cool:

[Drummer Dude Go]

I wasn't very good. I'm counting on a drum section in heaven for us drummer wannabes who have no rhythm here. David has my dream job.:)
I practice my drumset, and dream of someday playing like David Carr, but alas, I have no rythim either, and I'm in the marching band!:p I am good at one drum at a time, but when you put me on a drum set, I loose all the rythim. I cant do more at the same time than the high hat and snare, or I get thrown off rythim.:(
One day I will get better, but if not, I will be really good when I get to the Drummer's Mansion in heaven (I like to think there is one for all us drummers!), and I can do really good beats all day to praise my God!!
GO 24/48!! WAR EAGLE!! Drummers RULE!! God Bless You All!!:cool:

[lilmikey]

I'm a drummer myself, so I cant say that drums are "Evil," but I do hate it when people are driving down my dead end street in the middle of the night, just so they can show off that thier base notes can be played so loud that you cant hear anything in the song, not the words or any other instruments, all you hear is the beat, and it is so annoying! Especially at 12:00 at night, when I am trying to SLEEP! I dont know if thoose people ever sleep or not-maybe they dont know what sleeping is, because they are seen (And heard) driving all over town, thier stereos booming and vibrating cars around them all day and all night. The police around here give about 200 tickets per week just for loud stereos, and our town only has 14,000 people in it! You would think theese people would turn thier stereos down, but they never learn! I like to hear EVERYTHING in my music, the lyrics, and ALL the instruments, not just the thump of the base drum, even though I myself played base drum in the marching band last season ('05 football season).
GO 24/48!! WAR EAGLE!! God Bless You All!!:cool:
I am a druumer myself and the drums is my fav instrument(probably because that is the only instrument I know how to play). Anyway that loud beat thing was why the church considerd the drums to be a bad thing. Drums themselves cant do anything to a person. But I do think that some types of music can open us up to certain feelings and emotions. Even sometimes when we dont realize it. Music is one of the keys that opens the door to our heart. Out of every medium I think it has the biggest influence on us(in my opinion).
That is why we as Christians should be careful what we listen to(I am speaking for myself anyway).

[hefdaddy42]

Wow. A lot of the posts in this thread left me speechless.

[Drummer Dude Go]

I am a druumer myself and the drums is my fav instrument(probably because that is the only instrument I know how to play). Anyway that loud beat thing was why the church considerd the drums to be a bad thing. Drums themselves cant do anything to a person. But I do think that some types of music can open us up to certain feelings and emotions. Even sometimes when we dont realize it. Music is one of the keys that opens the door to our heart. Out of every medium I think it has the biggest influence on us(in my opinion).
That is why we as Christians should be careful what we listen to(I am speaking for myself anyway).
I agree!! Christians should be carefull what they listen to! The music you listen to, as well as the TV you watch, influences you, whether you think it does or not! BTW: If you want to see some really "Evil" drums, check theese out!:D