Has Christian Music become a loose phrase?

[Typhon]

I have many friends who listen to music that they say is Christian, but I see no evidence of anything godly in the lyrics. Sure, there is nothing satanic, but there are some bands I just wouldn`t call "Christian" which include Relient K and Underoath. There are more, but I cannot name them off the top of my head. Someone please explain to me how these bands can be considered within the same realm as Third Day, Casting Crowns, Newsboys, Kutless, and all other music that speak of Gods greatness.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I have many friends who listen to music that they say is Christian, but I see no evidence of anything godly in the lyrics. Sure, there is nothing satanic, but there are some bands I just wouldn`t call "Christian" which include Relient K and Underoath. There are more, but I cannot name them off the top of my head. Someone please explain to me how these bands can be considered within the same realm as Third Day, Casting Crowns, Newsboys, Kutless, and all other music that speak of Gods greatness.

music cannot be christian. it does not have a soul.

[SmileyFreak1981]

Here are the lyrics to Relient K's "My Girlfriend" from their 2000 self-titled album.



Walk through the streets of PA and you may see her.
Go up to her and say you're a believer.
Disgusting trash on MTV it makes her smile.
That guy from Satan's embassy put him on trial.

Because... Marilyn Manson ate my girlfriend.
Satan consumed her mind, and he may do it again.
Marylin Manson ate my girlfriend.
She once believed in the truth, now she belives in sin.

She denies God when she has the chance to live for him.
The thought of it makes me cringe.
Her future looks dim.
She'd rather gaze in Satan's eyes than on a steeple.
I'm really starting to despise beautiful people.


Song: Everything Will Be, same album...

It smells so sweet outside today. The sun smiles down, I'm in the shade. I sit and think about all my friends and how good they are. But when today is yesterday, I know that things won't stay the same. But I know that the memories won't go too far. Round and round the world will turn. Lessons taught and lessons learned. Jesus gets us through the good and bad times. And lets us know that everything will be just fine. A year's passed since I wrote this song. A lot's gone right a lot's gone wrong. But I know that Jesus has been there right by my side. And I see the sun still shines. It shines outside and in my life, and I know that everything is gonna be just fine.


----------

Please excuse the poor formating; I just copied and pasted.

[Typhon]

music cannot be christian. it does not have a soul.

Wow, I had no clue someone would take that so literally...I meant music that speaks of Gods glory and such, which I wrote in my post.

SmileyFreak1981, you found 2 songs, out of how many?

[middletree]

There is no such thing as Christian music. You should write and sing songs about life, period. Hopefully, Jesus is a part of your life and you should write about Him and glorify Him. But it is possible to be a believer and sing about things that have happened in your life that have no overt references to Jesus.

Do you watch TV? Movies? Those are just ways of telling stories, and songs are just ways of telling stories. I don't think you should call for song lyrics to always be specifically about Jesus unless you only watch movies/TV shows explicitly about Jesus.

[Typhon]

There is a distinct difference. TV and Movies were not gifts from God to be used to glorify him. Music was. I say "Christian Music" for lack of a better way to describe it.

[SmileyFreak1981]

I found several songs, and if you'd like, later this evening I can post songs/links, since I'm fixin' to go back to work...

[Typhon]

I`ve got to get to work myself. Won`t be back till 10 so i`ll see responses then.

[Mr.Elwood]

Same way you call yourself a Christian but do not meet the standards set for by others...
Who are you, or me, to tell the artist they are not "Christian enough" to be called Christian??
That's a huge burden I'd rather not take on... I'll leave it to God to bring down those who do not Glorify Him... I think He's better equipped to deal with it...

[Jason]

There is a distinct difference. TV and Movies were not gifts from God to be used to glorify him. Music was. I say "Christian Music" for lack of a better way to describe it.

Why music and not movies or TV? Because music was in the Bible and tv and movies weren't? Creativity in any form is a gift from God to be used to glorify Him.

[Charlotte]

There is a distinct difference. TV and Movies were not gifts from God to be used to glorify him. Music was. I say "Christian Music" for lack of a better way to describe it.


It's funny, and I've done it, too. I will talk about how a "Christian group" does some songs I don't like. But, as Christians...would God be happy with what we are watching on TV and at the Movies? Yea, we're doing Experiencing God AGAIN...It's NOT fun!!! LOL

Just listen and watch what would please God. It surprises me...we all have fav. groups, many not Christians, fav. actors and actresses...DO WE PRAY for them? If we all did...Hollywood, could get turned upsidedown!!!

BUT yes, as we consider 'Christian Music'...I DO agree we all use the term loosley.

[middletree]

There is a distinct difference. TV and Movies were not gifts from God to be used to glorify him. Music was. I say "Christian Music" for lack of a better way to describe it.
I completely disagree with this statement. Jason did a good job of explaining why.

I'm looking in my bible for the verses which verify what you said about music, and I'm just not seeing them.

[middletree]

It's probably this one.

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Ephesians 5:19
That verse tells us that music can be used to glorify God. It doesn't say that other forms of storytelling cannot. It doesn't say that we cannot use music to tell stories about other parts of life which don't mention God directly. It doesn't say that that is the only purpose for music.

If one were to take this verse to extremes, it doesn't allow for musical instruments, because you have to make the melody in your heart. That'd be a problem for Third Day. And for some guy named David.

[Jason]

Just listen and watch what would please God. It surprises me...we all have fav. groups, many not Christians, fav. actors and actresses...DO WE PRAY for them? If we all did...Hollywood, could get turned upsidedown!!!


And pray for me as I attempt to write a screenplay that Christians won't cringe when watching the movie.

[middletree]

And pray for me as I attempt to write a screenplay that Christians won't cringe when watching the movie.
Ah, that brings up a good point. Lots of Christians will want a movie with an overtly Christian message to do well that they will go out of their way to try and like it, when often it's just pretty bad (ie China Cry, the Left Behind movies, Omega Code)

Not that your movie will be that way, Jason. Your post just reminded me of that.

[coldcupofjoe]

Oh thank GOD! Mitty, I WILL pray for that.

(put lots of explosions in people LOVE explosions!!!)

[Glennjamin]

Apologies for the long post, but I've been getting a few of my thoughts in order...

TV and Movies were not gifts from God to be used to glorify him. Music was.
As a writer, I'd have to say I have a slight problem with this... I write stories, scripts (hopefully in the movie industry one day) and songs... yet only one of those is an option for glorifying God?

In Biblical times, they may not have had movies or TV... but they did have teachers who told stories.
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." - Matthew 13:34-35, partially quoting Psalm 78.

Music is an art, and I believe that each individual who writes a song makes a song that is individual.
So true. Any band will have songs written from/about experiences in the band members' lives, issues they deal with, etc. Now if those band members are Christians, they're going to sing about God. But they're also going to sing about life. Love. Even... :eek:... girls.

BUT yes, as we consider 'Christian Music'...I DO agree we all use the term loosley.
Yeah, I find the phrases "Christian bands" or "Christian music" to be awkward myself, even if they are handy quick, convenient labels sometimes. I had a few good discussions with members of Australian "Christian bands" (see, I just used the phrase myself) around these topics... Steve Drinkall (from Rhubarb) phrased it this way: "We're a band, and all of us are Christians."

Creativity in any form is a gift from God to be used to glorify Him.
Or to put it the way Phil Usher said to me: "All gifts come from God. Some artists choose to acknowledge that. Others ignore it."

See Exodus 35:30-35...
Then Moses said to the Israelites, "See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic craftsmanship. And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others. He has filled them with skill to do all kinds of work as craftsmen, designers, embroiderers in blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen, and weavers—all of them master craftsmen and designers.

Just as there are god-honouring musicians, writers and directors out there, there are also those who use their talents for their own glory. Habakkuk 2:18 warns against the abuse of God-given creativity... Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak.


Oh, and Jason... you know I'm praying for ya. I know how you feel. And we so need top-quality, non-cringeworthy scripts out there. :)

[Consuming Fire]

Same way you call yourself a Christian but do not meet the standards set for by others...
Who are you, or me, to tell the artist they are not "Christian enough" to be called Christian??
That's a huge burden I'd rather not take on... I'll leave it to God to bring down those who do not Glorify Him... I think He's better equipped to deal with it...
I agree Elwood. im not gonna take on that role. God has all the power in the world. and im just living here for a moment. i'll let him do the work and i will just praise him for every thing that is given to me. cause i love the lord with all my heart. and nothing would come out right if it wasnt for him. Soooo i will leave it in Gods hands. and the holy ghosts Convictions. and i will leave it at that. :D Andddd i think it would be fun seeing hollywood turned upside down and inside out. ;)

[Jason]

Ah, that brings up a good point. Lots of Christians will want a movie with an overtly Christian message to do well that they will go out of their way to try and like it, when often it's just pretty bad (ie China Cry, the Left Behind movies, Omega Code)

Not that your movie will be that way, Jason. Your post just reminded me of that.

Yes, those movies were poorly done. And, yes, a lot of Christians want an overtly Christian message. But hopefully a lot of people would want to see a movie that doesn't preach but portrays life without the need to throw in foul language, unnecessary nudity and the like.

[Jason]

Oh thank GOD! Mitty, I WILL pray for that.

(put lots of explosions in people LOVE explosions!!!)

Hmm. Explosions? My main character imagines he's a superhero throughout the movie so I'm sure I could work in a few explosions.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Why music and not movies or TV? Because music was in the Bible and tv and movies weren't? Creativity in any form is a gift from God to be used to glorify Him.

Quote for Truth.

Ah, that brings up a good point. Lots of Christians will want a movie with an overtly Christian message to do well that they will go out of their way to try and like it, when often it's just pretty bad (ie China Cry, the Left Behind movies, Omega Code)


The very same can be said about most christian labeled music.

[dpandtammy]

Well, I have already touched on this HOT topic. And allow me to once again, voice my opinion. I think that:
1. There are too many mixed signals, being given to our YOUTH in particular. If you say you are a Christian artist, your songs should NOT glorify the devil.
Should they all MENTION God? Not necessarily. I agree with Tree about singing about things that go on in your life:
2. A person who labels him/herself as a "Chrisitan" artist has a HUGE responsibility. If we profess Christ, people are watching and WAITING for us to make a mistake, and kill our testimony. How much truer this is if you are a "famous" musician, or actor, or whatever the case may be. So maybe their latest realease does not say "God", at all. Don't make that mean the person is not a Christian. We don't know....
3. If we are Christians as we profess, our desire will be to please the Lord in whatever we do. I don't think He would be un-pleased for singing about our circumstances, if we are doing that in a way that does glorify Him. (this goes for movies, TV, and everything else.)
Back to the original question: Do we use the term "Christian Music" too loosely?? Yes, some really do. There are "christian" artists that my son listens to, and i do not see how any of that "noise" could glorify God.:) Just because someone gets on a stage and sings about God, does not make him a Christian. But again, as (someone?) said earlier, God should be the judge and not us. There are CDs in the Christian music section, and even at my local Christian bookstore, that I consider suspect. But as whoever said, it is not our place to judge.
I listen to music that glorifies God. If the person singing the song is not really a Christian, that is not really gonna affect how I worship and praise God in my car, going down the road.

[TeleGirl72]

There is no such thing as Christian music. You should write and sing songs about life, period. Hopefully, Jesus is a part of your life and you should write about Him and glorify Him. But it is possible to be a believer and sing about things that have happened in your life that have no overt references to Jesus.

Do you watch TV? Movies? Those are just ways of telling stories, and songs are just ways of telling stories. I don't think you should call for song lyrics to always be specifically about Jesus unless you only watch movies/TV shows explicitly about Jesus.


Very well said!!!
-Sam

[Corrine]

I have many friends who listen to music that they say is Christian, but I see no evidence of anything godly in the lyrics. Sure, there is nothing satanic, but there are some bands I just wouldn`t call "Christian" which include Relient K and Underoath. There are more, but I cannot name them off the top of my head. Someone please explain to me how these bands can be considered within the same realm as Third Day, Casting Crowns, Newsboys, Kutless, and all other music that speak of Gods greatness.
I think you'd do well to do a little more research into your claims. Have you read the lyrics of these bands' songs? Just because there is screaming, doesn't mean it's not godly. Much of that screaming is passion for God.

Take a look at my thread about Thrice's new CD. (http://www.thirdday.com/boards/showthread.php?p=1290381&posted=1#post1290381) And they don't even call themselves a "Christian band."

Below are the lyrics for just one Underoath song. There are many more that show their love for the Lord, and need for Him. And lyrics don't have to be black and white. There are many songs that are written by bands in prose or poetry, and you can't understand what they are about at all, but they are about the Lord. Sometimes you just have to put your own interpretation on a song.

Artist: Underoath
Album: They're Only Chasing Safety
Song: Some Will Seek Forgiveness, Others Escape

I heard a voice through the discord
A deluge of passersby
I saw one gaze frozen in time
Watching me passing by

I swear I'll know your face in the crowd
And I'll hear your voice so loud
When you're whispering

Hey unfaithful I will teach you
To be stronger
Hey ungraceful I will teach you
To forgive one another

Here's my kiss to betray
Desperate to brush the lips of grace
Do you feel hollow when you think of how I lied?

Oh sweet angel of mercy
With your grace like the morning
Wrap your loving arms around me
Oh sweet angel of mercy
With your grace like the morning
Wrap your loving arms around me

Hey unfaithful I will teach you
To be stronger
Hey ungraceful I will teach you
To forgive one another

Hey unfaithful I will teach you
To be stronger
Hey unloving
I will love you
And will love you

Jesus I'm ready to come home
I'm ready to come
Jesus I'm ready to come home
Unfaithful
Ungraceful
And unloving
I will love you

[Love Them Like Jesus]

I think you'd do well to do a little more research into your claims. Have you read the lyrics of these bands' songs? Just because there is screaming, doesn't mean it's not godly. Much of that screaming is passion for God.

Take a look at my thread about Thrice's new CD. (http://www.thirdday.com/boards/showthread.php?p=1290381&posted=1#post1290381) And they don't even call themselves a "Christian band."

Below are the lyrics for just one Underoath song. There are many more that show their love for the Lord, and need for Him. And lyrics don't have to be black and white. There are many songs that are written by bands in prose or poetry, and you can't understand what they are about at all, but they are about the Lord. Sometimes you just have to put your own interpretation on a song.

Artist: Underoath
Album: They're Only Chasing Safety
Song: Some Will Seek Forgiveness, Others Escape

I heard a voice through the discord
A deluge of passersby
I saw one gaze frozen in time
Watching me passing by

I swear I'll know your face in the crowd
And I'll hear your voice so loud
When you're whispering

Hey unfaithful I will teach you
To be stronger
Hey ungraceful I will teach you
To forgive one another

Here's my kiss to betray
Desperate to brush the lips of grace
Do you feel hollow when you think of how I lied?

Oh sweet angel of mercy
With your grace like the morning
Wrap your loving arms around me
Oh sweet angel of mercy
With your grace like the morning
Wrap your loving arms around me

Hey unfaithful I will teach you
To be stronger
Hey ungraceful I will teach you
To forgive one another

Hey unfaithful I will teach you
To be stronger
Hey unloving
I will love you
And will love you

Jesus I'm ready to come home
I'm ready to come
Jesus I'm ready to come home
Unfaithful
Ungraceful
And unloving
I will love youAmen Mama~~~ Underoath rocks!!! :cool: i love them!!~~~~ and alot of people judge them and say they arn't a Christian band just b/cthey play them in mainstream and they have thier merch. in hott topics....that's not true tho, cuz like u said, if you look past thier awesome singing {;)} and u actually take a look at thier lyrics...they DO glorify God. :)

[Gandalf]

We must attack the enemy's line of communication. What we need is not more little books about Christianity, but more little books by Christians on other subjects - with their Christianity latent.

- C.S. Lewis


I agree, and I think it applies to music as well.

[Typhon]

I misspoke eariler and someone already covered that.

However, isn`t one of the points of music to be a tool in evangilism? When a band is seen as Christian by christians, but simply another band playing music to the rest of the world, how does that fit in? I have yet to meet anyone outside the christian faith that would classify Relient K anywhere near Christian music...they simply think it is a punk band. I have, however, seen quite a few start their walk to faith in Christ after listening to a Casting Crowns song, as well as songs from a variety of bands.

[Gandalf]

Some people could (as Switchfoot does) I suppose use music in a somewhat evangelistic manner. But, I've yet to meet anyone who was saved by listening to a song, and it's far from the only purpose of music. There's nothing wrong with using music to reach the lost. There's nothing wrong with using it to worship God. There's nothing wrong with using it to express one's feelings or entertain people or whatever... Different musicians have different goals and callings. I'm not going to get upset when a particular band does or doesn't do what I may do with the music.

[Typhon]

Some people could (as Switchfoot does) I suppose use music in a somewhat evangelistic manner. But, I've yet to meet anyone who was saved by listening to a song, and it's far from the only purpose of music. There's nothing wrong with using music to reach the lost. There's nothing wrong with using it to worship God. There's nothing wrong with using it to express one's feelings or entertain people or whatever... Different musicians have different goals and callings. I'm not going to get upset when a particular band does or doesn't do what I may do with the music.

Did you miss the part where I said "start their walk to faith in Christ"? That dosen`t mean be saved, that just means they`re started on the path. I don`t have a problem with the bands, I have a problem with them being called "christian" and being put together with music that plainly and obviously glorifies the Lord with every word.

[Gandalf]

Didn't miss it, just misread/misunderstood it. Sorry.

If there are a bunch of Christian people making music, why is it a problem to call them a Christian band? (or not to)

[Typhon]

I don`t think you`re following what i`m saying here...heh.

First of all, I don`t agree with the classification of music in the first place. All it does is bring divisions down among people. Fans of just rock and fans of just rap have been divided for a long time, as well as fans of just metal. And they`re all divided against "Christian" music. At least, music that is obviously about God. While bands like Relient K and Underoath have bridged this barrier, what is the point if it isn`t effecting the rest of the music world? I`d think that with a large non-christian fanbase, their music could be used very effectivly in evangilism. Unfortunatly, one reason why they may not be is big record labels end up talking some bands out of being as open as they would be. I never considered the possibility with Underoath and Relient K as I don`t know what record label they are under. Might be easier with Casting Crowns/Newsboys/many others being on indie labels, but now i`m really off topic. Lol.

[mat1583]

I misspoke eariler and someone already covered that.

However, isn`t one of the points of music to be a tool in evangilism? When a band is seen as Christian by christians, but simply another band playing music to the rest of the world, how does that fit in? I have yet to meet anyone outside the christian faith that would classify Relient K anywhere near Christian music...they simply think it is a punk band. I have, however, seen quite a few start their walk to faith in Christ after listening to a Casting Crowns song, as well as songs from a variety of bands.

"Isn't one of the points of music to be a tool in evangilism." Let me rephrase that. One of the many tools of evangilism CAN be music. Sure, music can be a wonderful tool for evangiilsm, but that doesn't mean it always has to be. Of course, that's where you and many other people disagree. Actually, by your example of Relient K you brought up a very good point.

I've also had a couple of friends that listen to Relient K. I was in the car with one of them listening to I think "Anatomy..". I love Relient K and said something to the effect of "Hey, I didn't know you listened to them. They were playing this song last night at our Devotional." My friend was a little surprised. "I didn't know they were a Christian band." Well, they're a Christian band, but the songs aren't always overtly about God. They have some good songs about life in general. From there we just discussed more about Christian bands. It was a great discussion.

My point in the story is that sometimes these 'Christian' bands that don't always sing just about God or Jesus can have a positive effect on un-believers and can even lead them into discussions like the above...and maybe eventually their salvation. You see, un-believers are not going to just pick up a Third Day CD at Wal-Mart and start listening. They aren't interested in worship songs and praise songs. But if they pick up a Switchfoot CD, P.O.D., Relient K...there's a good chance that somewhere along the way seeds will be planted and someday sprout into something truly amazing.

And lastly, I leave you with a favorite Relient K song of mine that I played in church one day during our service...just in case you still aren't convinced. (I don't really feel the need to defend their Christianity, it's just a wonderful song :) )

"For The Moments I Feel Faint"

Am I at the point of no improvement?
What of the death I still dwell in?
I try to excel, but I feel no movement.
Can I be free of this unreleasable sin?

[Chorus:]
Never underestimate my Jesus.
You're telling me that there's no hope.
I'm telling you your wrong.

Never underestimate my Jesus
When the world around you crumbles
He will be strong, He will be strong

I throw up my hands
"Oh, the impossibilities"
Frustrated and tired
Where do I go from here?
Now I'm searching for the confidence I've lost so willingly
Overcoming these obstacles is overcoming my fear

[Chorus]

I think I can't, I think I can't
But I think you can, I think you can
I think I can't, I think I can't
But I think you can, I think you can
Gather my insufficiencies and
place them in your hands, place them in your hands, place them
in your hands

-washboard

[Buttabean]

I have many friends who listen to music that they say is Christian, but I see no evidence of anything godly in the lyrics. Sure, there is nothing satanic, but there are some bands I just wouldn`t call "Christian" which include Relient K and Underoath. There are more, but I cannot name them off the top of my head. Someone please explain to me how these bands can be considered within the same realm as Third Day, Casting Crowns, Newsboys, Kutless, and all other music that speak of Gods greatness.



I think you need to re-listen to all of Relient K's music. As an AVID Relient K fan since before their first album came out, I can totally tell you they sing songs with a Christian message. They just like to throw fun songs on their albums also. Nothing wrong with that.

Examples:

Softer to me
Be my Escape
I am Understood
For the moments I feel faint
Falling Out
Getting into You
Those words are not enough

etc...the list goes totally on. These are just ones that I can think of off the top of my head. Look up the lyrics, buddy.

[Typhon]

No one will pick up a Third Day CD on their own, for sure, but i`ve had people over to my house and played it, as well as other bands, and they were surprised how much they enjoyed it. Sure, some of them didn`t get saved, but a few did, partly because they listened to the right song about God on the right day, realised that the music was, in fact, good, bought the CD themselves, started listening to it, started looking at the bible, going to my Youth Group, and eventually comming to faith in Jesus. Sure, the music wasn`t the direct cause, but you can easily see how without it they might have never found Jesus.

[Jason]

Gandalf quoted:
We must attack the enemy's line of communication. What we need is not more little books about Christianity, but more little books by Christians on other subjects - with their Christianity latent.

- C.S. Lewis


Beautiful. And something I aspire to with my writing.

[mat1583]

No one will pick up a Third Day CD on their own, for sure, but i`ve had people over to my house and played it, as well as other bands, and they were surprised how much they enjoyed it. Sure, some of them didn`t get saved, but a few did, partly because they listened to the right song about God on the right day, realised that the music was, in fact, good, bought the CD themselves, started listening to it, started looking at the bible, going to my Youth Group, and eventually comming to faith in Jesus. Sure, the music wasn`t the direct cause, but you can easily see how without it they might have never found Jesus.

Well of course. We all know that Third Day's music can be used in that way. It just seemed as if you're trying to say, "I don't see why [insert band here] is in the Christian music section, because I do not view their music as music that glorifies God directly, thus it cannot be an evangelical tool." The example I gave about those bands being an evangelical tool is not just anecdotal. It happens all the time.

I have a question for you. Do you own "Wire" by Third Day? Did you like it? Why/why not.

-washboard

[dpandtammy]

Beautiful. And something I aspire to with my writing.


I AGREE!!! Wow!! Where exactly did this quote come from?? (the one by CS Lewis...) I have never really read any of his stuff..... Not to get off the subject..... (Sorry)
But some other EXCELLENT points have been made here....

[middletree]

Quote for Truth.
The very same can be said about most christian labeled music.

Well, I almost said that, but wanted to show some restraint.

[prayercloth sis]

Apologies for the long post, but I've been getting a few of my thoughts in order...


As a writer, I'd have to say I have a slight problem with this... I write stories, scripts (hopefully in the movie industry one day) and songs... yet only one of those is an option for glorifying God?

In Biblical times, they may not have had movies or TV... but they did have teachers who told stories.
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." - Matthew 13:34-35, partially quoting Psalm 78.


So true. Any band will have songs written from/about experiences in the band members' lives, issues they deal with, etc. Now if those band members are Christians, they're going to sing about God. But they're also going to sing about life. Love. Even... :eek:... girls.


Yeah, I find the phrases "Christian bands" or "Christian music" to be awkward myself, even if they are handy quick, convenient labels sometimes. I had a few good discussions with members of Australian "Christian bands" (see, I just used the phrase myself) around these topics... Steve Drinkall (from Rhubarb) phrased it this way: "We're a band, and all of us are Christians."


Or to put it the way Phil Usher said to me: "All gifts come from God. Some artists choose to acknowledge that. Others ignore it."

See Exodus 35:30-35...
Then Moses said to the Israelites, "See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic craftsmanship. And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others. He has filled them with skill to do all kinds of work as craftsmen, designers, embroiderers in blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen, and weavers—all of them master craftsmen and designers.

Just as there are god-honouring musicians, writers and directors out there, there are also those who use their talents for their own glory. Habakkuk 2:18 warns against the abuse of God-given creativity... Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak.


Oh, and Jason... you know I'm praying for ya. I know how you feel. And we so need top-quality, non-cringeworthy scripts out there. :)


Enjoyed reading this post.

Rhonie

[kiwisongbird]

I beleive all good gifts come from God...

I read an article once years ago about how The Beatles had been given very special gifting from God but they did not use it to further His Kingdom... it was very interesting - they were an exceptionally talented bunch of guys, but used their talents for extending their kingdom and other weird spiritual stuff...

I spent days imagining what they could have achieved for the Lord if they had been Christians...

About MOVIES.... God has spoken to me through movies often - spoken to me about my life, about how to consider other people - all sorts of stuff....... watching Braveheart changed my prayer life for a while..........even though you slay me you will not take away my freedom......as they pulled his guts out!!!!

I think God can use any talent He gives to people in many more ways than we think they can be used.....

.....even the talent of being able to give someone a drink of water!!!

:) :)

[Typhon]

Well of course. We all know that Third Day's music can be used in that way. It just seemed as if you're trying to say, "I don't see why [insert band here] is in the Christian music section, because I do not view their music as music that glorifies God directly, thus it cannot be an evangelical tool." The example I gave about those bands being an evangelical tool is not just anecdotal. It happens all the time.

I have a question for you. Do you own "Wire" by Third Day? Did you like it? Why/why not.

-washboard

Well, I love some of the CD and I don`t really have strong feelings for some of it. It really depends what song in particular.

[middletree]

I beleive all good gifts come from God...

I read an article once years ago about how The Beatles had been given very special gifting from God but they did not use it to further His Kingdom... it was very interesting - they were an exceptionally talented bunch of guys, but used their talents for extending their kingdom and other weird spiritual stuff...



A Colorado pastor named James Ryle said this, and took a lot of heat for it. But he's right.


I think God can use any talent He gives to people in many more ways than we think they can be used.....

Amen!

[Psalm25Gomer]

Same way you call yourself a Christian but do not meet the standards set for by others...
Who are you, or me, to tell the artist they are not "Christian enough" to be called Christian??
That's a huge burden I'd rather not take on... I'll leave it to God to bring down those who do not Glorify Him... I think He's better equipped to deal with it...



Exactly.

[Gandalf]

Where exactly did this quote come from?? (the one by CS Lewis...) I have never really read any of his stuff.....
It's from the essay "Christian Apologetics" in God in the Dock - here's a longer excerpt:
We must attack the enemy's line of communication. What we want is not more little books about Christianity, but more little books by Christians on other subjects --- with their Christianity latent. You can see this most easily if you look at it the other way round. Our faith is not likely to be shaken by any book on Hinduism. But, if whenever we read an elementary book on geology, botany, politics, or astronomy, we found that its implications were Hindu, that would shake us. It is not the books written in direct defense of materialism that make the modern man a materialist; it is the materialistic assumptions in all the other books. In the same way, it is not books on Christianity that will really trouble him. But he would be troubled if, whenever he wanted a cheap popular introduction to some science, the best work on the market was always by a Christian. The first step to the reconversion of a country is books produced by Christians.

[Glennjamin]

Thanks, Gandalf. That's a great quote from C.S. Lewis... and it's so true.


And something I aspire to with my writing.
:cool: Awesome, Mitcho. Me too. :)

[mat1583]

It's from the essay "Christian Apologetics" in God in the Dock - here's a longer excerpt:

Ah! Thanks for posting it in the whole. Man...awesome :)

-washboard

[dpandtammy]

Ah! Thanks for posting it in the whole. Man...awesome :)

-washboard

Yeah, ditto for me. That was great!!

[Gandalf]

Just about everything that man wrote is excellent. I'd seriously recommend reading all of Lewis' writing to anyone at some point or another.

For those of you looking for his apologetic works, etc. there are a couple of compilations I've found that have many of them combined (so you don't have to search out a dozen small books to find them): The Collected Works of C.S. Lewis and The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Collection together have a broad sampling of his more well known non-fiction works (probably around half overall, and most of the famous ones, actually also including Screwtape Letters, which is fiction). As for fiction, everyone knows about Narnia; I'd also recommend his Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) - great sci-fi/fantasy writing.

[Jason]

Just about everything that man wrote is excellent. I'd seriously recommend reading all of Lewis' writing to anyone at some point or another.

For those of you looking for his apologetic works, etc. there are a couple of compilations I've found that have many of them combined (so you don't have to search out a dozen small books to find them): The Collected Works of C.S. Lewis and The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Collection together have a broad sampling of his more well known non-fiction works (probably around half overall, and most of the famous ones, actually also including Screwtape Letters, which is fiction). As for fiction, everyone knows about Narnia; I'd also recommend his Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) - great sci-fi/fantasy writing.

Mere Christianity by Lewis helped bring me to Christ.

[bholdj]

There is a distinct difference. TV and Movies were not gifts from God to be used to glorify him. Music was.

Yea, that movie "The Passion of the Christ" wasn't a godly movie at all :rolleyes: .

[bholdj]

Just about everything that man wrote is excellent. I'd seriously recommend reading all of Lewis' writing to anyone at some point or another.

For those of you looking for his apologetic works, etc. there are a couple of compilations I've found that have many of them combined (so you don't have to search out a dozen small books to find them): The Collected Works of C.S. Lewis and The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Collection together have a broad sampling of his more well known non-fiction works (probably around half overall, and most of the famous ones, actually also including Screwtape Letters, which is fiction). As for fiction, everyone knows about Narnia; I'd also recommend his Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) - great sci-fi/fantasy writing.

I fixen to start "the problem of pain" as soon as school winds down. "Mere Christianity" is awesome.

"Shadow lands" a movie about C.S Lewis and his wife, starring anthony hopkins, is very well done.

[Glennjamin]

As for fiction, everyone knows about Narnia; I'd also recommend his Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) - great sci-fi/fantasy writing.
My brother tracked down a hardback copy of C.S. Lewis' novel Till We Have Faces (which is apparently out of print) on eBay.co.uk for my birthday recently. :D It was Lewis' favourite of his own fiction works, and I've never read it... it'll be part of my inflight reading in a couple weeks, I think.

[Glennjamin]

I read an article once years ago about how The Beatles had been given very special gifting from God but they did not use it to further His Kingdom... it was very interesting - they were an exceptionally talented bunch of guys, but used their talents for extending their kingdom and other weird spiritual stuff...

I spent days imagining what they could have achieved for the Lord if they had been Christians...
Me too... John had quite a talent for wordplay and wit... could've been used in so many ways... :rolleyes: :D

I think God can use any talent He gives to people in many more ways than we think they can be used.....
I think that's quite true as well...

[cheewiee]

I am just now reading Mere Christianity... It is up until this point been incredible It has forced me to rethink some preconceptions about Christianity I have had for a long time... and the Natural Law bit is an Argument For God that I don't think an Athiest could shoot down logicly...

But anyway... back to Topic...

Christian Music isn't a genre... and I think MANY people think it is a genre unto itself.. Christian Music describes Target Marketing... That is It is Music that is targeted towards christians... And within that Target you can have as many Genre's as you want....

Now then, I think that there have been, and will continue to be bands that while I woulnd't begin to question their Salvation, I would ask them why they feel compelled to make Christian Music... I think for MANY it's a paycheck, its a way to express themselves artisticly... but they do not consider it Ministry....

If a band doesn't have the attitude of what they are doing is ministry then I know I would prefer not to listen to them...

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yea, that movie "The Passion of the Christ" wasn't a godly movie at all :rolleyes: .

the Jesus Film that missionaries use must be crap too

[cheewiee]

the Jesus Film that missionaries use must be crap too

And since Campus Crusade for Christ is the one Behind the Jesus Film Project... they must be crap too...

The world's largest Parachurch organization crap... who woulda thought...

[Howlin' Wolf]

And since Campus Crusade for Christ is the one Behind the Jesus Film Project... they must be crap too...

The world's largest Parachurch organization crap... who woulda thought...

and all who give and support CC must be losers

[larryl]

are we still having this same argument?

yes....there are many in christian music for the money......it is a proven fact that many bands who could never make it in the general market get into CCm instead....(i won't name names, and i could)

yes....there are a lot of christians in the general market, making their living, using their talents....(ty tabor of king's x, buddy miller, bill mallonee, bono[yes, i said bono], fleming and john, matt slocum...the list goes on)

of course there are also good, devout, god-serving christians in CCM, who are also immensely talented. they feel called to make music for the church. more power to them. (third day, steven curtis chapman, wes king(pray for wes), etc)

aside from the folks in CCM for the paycheck, are any of these better or worse than the others? i don't think so......

i think we err when we think that a christian should only make music that fits in the CCM mold.

do we ask that christian painters paint only pictures of god? or of the church? or do we see beauty in his landscapes?

do we demand that christian's who are writers write only books on theological subjects? or do we enjoy their fiction as well?

go a step further.....do any of you consider yourselves "christian <insert your job title here>"? i am not a christian sales person. i am a computer sales person. hopefully my christianity comes out in some way in what i do.

one last point.......some artists do consider their music as ministry, and themselves ministers; this is a whole different subject. but many do not. they are just folks who have talent (in some cases) to make music, and are christians as well....

[middletree]

are we still having this same argument?


Actually, for the most part, no we're not. Just one or two stragglers left behind.

[larryl]

Actually, for the most part, no we're not. Just one or two stragglers left behind.

:D