Evolution in the bible, says Vatican... [Archive]

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WeaselInYerFoot

11-07-2005, 03:20 PM

Apparently, (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html) , evolution is true. I guess they do know more about our geocentric world than we give them credit for.

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.

MadCatholicGomer

11-07-2005, 04:21 PM

WeaselInYerFoot

11-07-2005, 04:50 PM

It would be helpful to have a link...

Also, remember that the Catholic Church has NOT taken any position on evolution, even if some people in official positions within the Church have... on the other end of the spectrum, I have seen some Catholics arguing that the earth is the center of the universe. Neither theory is anathema in the Catholic Church.

Sorry, the link is the word "Apparently", I probably should have made it more apparent.

EDIT: I just noticed the irony of this post. Either I've had too much coffee or not enough.

WeaselInYerFoot

11-07-2005, 05:36 PM

Cardinal though he may be, he is completely ignorant of science to have made that statment. The Bible doesn not allow for Darwinian evolution, and it is unneccesary to even say that it does. Who is that cardinal trying to appease?

It's a common attempt (by certainly not only in the Catholic religion) to make a belief more acceptable by blending it with pop culture. It's possible that this statement has to do more with politics and very little with science.

Any evolutionist who has studied the subject enough will admit that the theories do not help you "understand things better" as the cardinal says. On the contrary, it raises alot more questions.

Howlin' Wolf

11-07-2005, 05:45 PM

Who is that cardinal trying to appease?

the antichrist, nicolae carpathia

GuitarMan2387

11-07-2005, 06:11 PM

There is nothing wrong with believing in evolution as long as you agree that at some point God instilled an eternal soul and the ablility to reason and called him "man."

God could have created the universe however he wanted, by direct creation or evolution. But we do know that at some point a soul and the ability to reason was given to man.

Howlin' Wolf

11-07-2005, 06:14 PM

GuitarMan2387

11-07-2005, 06:27 PM

and at that point, we became man. No longer ape.

I don't believe this way was the story of creation makes much more sense, but you can't say that that is wrong to believe in because you don't know how god created the world.

Howlin' Wolf

11-07-2005, 06:28 PM

GuitarMan2387

11-07-2005, 06:30 PM

Not neccesaraly as a complete fact.

In any case as long as you exept that God gave humans a soul at some point, I don't think it matters to much, worth argueing over.

Mugirl04

11-07-2005, 07:51 PM

There is a lot wrong with believing evolution as a christian. The Bible never said there was evolution. To believe evolution is to call God a liar. When God was done wiht the creation he said that it was good. This means there was no need for evolution.

WeaselInYerFoot

11-07-2005, 07:52 PM

Not neccesaraly as a complete fact.

In any case as long as you exept that God gave humans a soul at some point, I don't think it matters to much, worth argueing over.

If that's the case, that God at some point gave the pseudo-ape a soul, then where did sin fall in the story? where did Satan tempt Eve? or the story of Cain? I agree with you, that our salvation isn't dependant upon this. But it's still interesting to say the least. But these sad attempts at compensating truth for the sake of acceptance even before doing the proper research are worthy of discusison.

Even Darwin himself admited its improbability
"innumerable forms must have existed, why do we not find them imbedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? Why is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this perhaps is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

"The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed, with room to spare, inside a single coffin!" (Science Digest, vol. 90, May '82 p. 44.)

If you concider the amount of years in which our beloved man has evolved, there should be more remains than that. Significantly more. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Evolution is still speculation based on evidence that doesn't exclusively represent the theory. Ultimately, those who don't believe in God, have one choice - evolution. It's a personal belief, and giving up Creationism just so we can "get along" will do nothing, both in the name of Science of course, in the name of Christ.

Hebrew 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

GuitarMan2387

11-07-2005, 08:35 PM

If that's the case, that God at some point gave the pseudo-ape a soul, then where did sin fall in the story? where did Satan tempt Eve? or the story of Cain? I agree with you, that our salvation isn't dependant upon this. But it's still interesting to say the least. But these sad attempts at compensating truth for the sake of acceptance even before doing the proper research are worthy of discusison.

Even Darwin himself admited its improbability

If you concider the amount of years in which our beloved man has evolved, there should be more remains than that. Significantly more. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Evolution is still speculation based on evidence that doesn't exclusively represent the theory. Ultimately, those who don't believe in God, have one choice - evolution. It's a personal belief, and giving up Creationism just so we can "get along" will do nothing, both in the name of Science of course, in the name of Christ.

Hebrew 11:3

Once again I'm not advocating evolution, I don't believe in it. But if God wanted to do it that way, well cool. If not, ok. Its just one of those things we'll have to ask Him when we get there.

I guess the whole story of adam and eve would take place after God gave man souls or w/e, I dunno I'm not sayin this is correct, I'm just saying if God wanted to create man like that, then ok.

1inamillion

11-07-2005, 08:50 PM

Apparently, (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html) , evolution is true. I guess they do know more about our geocentric world than we give them credit for.
i can't belive you just said that..how can you think we all got here by one big boom and we just "happened" to have every star where it goes and when a human has a baby its not a monkey wanna know why cuz evolution is WRONG and not TRUE

GuitarMan2387

11-07-2005, 08:53 PM

If God wanted to do it that way, he could.

Remember he IS omnipotent.

WeaselInYerFoot

11-08-2005, 12:20 AM

i can't belive you just said that..how can you think we all got here by one big boom and we just "happened" to have every star where it goes and when a human has a baby its not a monkey wanna know why cuz evolution is WRONG and not TRUE

Well, I'm glad that you don't believe I said that.

Cause I didn't.

Well, I did, but sarcastically. That you would of found out if you read the rest of the thread :)

Healing Oil

11-08-2005, 01:23 AM

Also, remember that the Catholic Church has NOT taken any position on evolution, even if some people in official positions within the Church have... For a church that claims to be the one and true holy body of Christ, Id expect them to take a stand on an issue like this. How can this church take stands against birth control, priests the right to marry, etc, yet have no opinion or in stone belief of how this world came to be? I think it makes a big difference whether or not we let it be known that we do not believe the world was just made from nothing.

Once again I'm not advocating evolution, Nor are you condeming it.
But if God wanted to do it that way, well cool. If not, ok. But God did not want to do it that way, and He did not do it that way. This point you can not argue, and yes, it is a subject matter worth discussing. In fact, it is more worth discussing than whether or not birth control is a sin.
Its just one of those things we'll have to ask Him when we get there.
No, it wont be. I imagine God hangs his head in shame just hearing that His own believers arent condemning such an opposite theology from His own.

I guess the whole story of adam and eve would take place after God gave man souls or w/e, I dunno I'm not sayin this is correct, I'm just saying if God wanted to create man like that, then ok.I just dont understand how the CC can say "I guess...we dont have a position on this matter" when it comes to solid, concrete, non-refutable words of the bible, but can preach with such certainty that grey areas of life have a strict right or wrong to them.

:confused:

GuitarMan2387

11-08-2005, 03:46 PM

God could have been speaking figuretivly, you don't know.

Everything in the Bible wasn't to be taken exactly literally, although some things were.

Howlin' Wolf

11-08-2005, 03:54 PM

God could have been speaking figuretivly, you don't know.

.

this exact statement is why people dont like discussing things with you. when you have no argument left, you just resort to this statement instead of coming here with an open mind

GuitarMan2387

11-08-2005, 04:07 PM

no comprendo

how are u too know what is supposed to take literally and figuretivly?

GuitarMan2387

11-08-2005, 04:08 PM

If you look at thing from literary point of view, and read carefully as to how the dialogue runs in the Bible, God rarely, if ever, spoke in rhyme or riddle.

then what about John 6: 60 and the teaching about the eucharist? we catholics take this literally? sooo?

coldcupofjoe

11-08-2005, 04:12 PM

I like something my Bible professor, Doctor of Theology Charles Stephenson said it makes it real easy to understand, "If it makes sense, it's literal if it doesnt its figurative." Of course everything has to be taken in the perspective that their culture was very different than ours and it was written with their culture in mind not with ours in mind.

coldcupofjoe

11-08-2005, 04:23 PM

It wasnt? So the Lovers in Song of Songs were kinda funny looking then. And Lady Wisdom and Lady Foolishness from proverbs are real too. Habakkuk really stood on watch-towers waiting for the Babylonians. Isreal really was a woman and was married to God. Hmmm interesting... Puts a WHOLE new spin on the old testament then...

Healing Oil

11-08-2005, 06:25 PM

no comprendo

how are u too know what is supposed to take literally and figuretivly?How do you not take how God said the earth was made literally?

This is absolutely beyond me, and I truly have no words to say....

Gandalf

11-08-2005, 09:54 PM

How do you not take how God said the earth was made literally?
It's entirely possible to believe that God created the earth, but read the Genesis account as figurative rather than as a detailed historical description. One could for instance, believe that the days of creation were not literal 24-hour days, but that God did create things in their current form in some timeframe. Some people believe in a thiestic evolution - that God's sovereign hand directed things to evolve. There are plenty of things in Scripture that aren't literal (I'm sure Solomon's lover didn't actually have woolen teeth).

Personally, I think biological evolution is rather far-fetched. It's never been shown to happen in the sense of life changing from one form to another (relative predominance of traits already possible within the genetic code certainly does change in response to changing conditions, but this does not allow apes to become men, reptiles to become birds, etc.) But, it's possible for people to take Genesis as being symbolic and still believe the gospel, and that God is the Creator, etc.

Healing Oil

11-08-2005, 10:53 PM

Yea I hear you. But in my mind, the word "evolution" relates to the theory that it just happened, monkeys, apes, the whole enchilada. The theory that God had nothing to do with how earth came to exist.

I had no idea that the Catholic church has no opinion on the matter, and havent desided whether to accept or reject the idea. It took me by suprise, as Im sure you could tell.

It is just a little concerning that any believer could even consider evolution.

MadCatholicGomer

11-09-2005, 01:02 PM

"The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure.... Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question....
The faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth" (Humani Generis 36-37, encyclical promulgated by His Holiness Pope Pius XII on August 12, 1950).

Mugirl04

11-09-2005, 04:57 PM

I believe you have to literally read the whole Bible. I believe that you can read Genesis literally and show evidence that it happen just like God said

cheewiee

11-09-2005, 05:03 PM

Healing Oil

11-10-2005, 02:36 AM

coldcupofjoe

11-10-2005, 12:24 PM

I believe you have to literally read the whole Bible. I believe that you can read Genesis literally and show evidence that it happen just like God said

So then it IS possible to get a camel through the eye of a needle? Hmm ill have to go try that one. The Lovers in Song of Solomon were really freaky looking too too.

Mugirl04

11-10-2005, 12:28 PM

You have to take the Bible in context, but i believe that the bible is 100% true, and that you can literally read the Bible. You took the camel scripture out of context, Jesus is describing something using a symbol.

coldcupofjoe

11-10-2005, 12:30 PM

Yes I know. I was commenting on what you said about the Bible being literal. The way you said it you didnt leave any room for figurative language at all in the Bible.

Angel777

11-10-2005, 12:36 PM

So then it IS possible to get a camel through the eye of a needle? Hmm ill have to go try that one. The Lovers in Song of Solomon were really freaky looking too too. Why Not?!did God not say anything is possible?!

coldcupofjoe

11-10-2005, 12:41 PM

Yes with God's help or a significant large needle or an extremely tiny camel it would be possible to thread a camel through a needle. And I also suppose that God could have made a woman who had a neck like the tower of babylon and hair like flocks of goats.

Thirddaywannabe

11-10-2005, 01:46 PM

"Evolution", in its original context, is entirely true, and cannot be refuted. This is "Darwanian Evolution", and we have evidence of this all around us. For example, take into account the ever changing nature of microbiology...and how they are "evolving" literally, right as we speak, gaining new strenghts against our antibiotics and what not. This is a simple state of fact that can be proved in a very basic lab. And, also, when you hear about the growing lack of viable antibiotics. However, that is a different issue at hand.

Darwin did not propose that humans were evolved from a lower form of life, such as apes. He simply proposed that because of the random nature of genetics, and various effects of the environment, along with the ever changing nature of genetic codes(mutations and such) that organisms evolve over time, and that this affects the world by means of "Natural Selection" which basically means, those who can survive can, and pass on their genes, and those who can't will eventually have their genes removed from the genetic pool, by means of dying.

Now, taking this theory, even applying it to billions and billions of years, it would still be VERY hard to explain that humans (and all modern life forms) came from a common ancestor, that being some fish or bug or whatever it is that they say it came from. Even to say that humans evolved from apes, taking into account billions and billions of years, would also be improbable. Why? Because, why would we still have modern apes, the way we do now? Why haven't we seen any major, species-defining changes in the time (limited time, yes) but since the history of study began, and we began to record traits and such of animals and such? Given, we wouldn't see anything in the generously proposed 200 years or so (don't quote me on that statement....blind statement there) but over time...through various documents of civilizations, both gone and still remaining, it would still be somewhat more obvious. If you take into account the complexity of the Homo Sapian brain, it is simply illogical to think that it could have just happened to have happened the way it did. Compared to the brains of all of the other life forms of the world, it is simply very hard to say that it just happened to turn out this way. Our brains are thousands of times more complex than anything the world has ever seen before. (Given, as a species, we don't always use them)

So, realistically speaking, the "Divine Design" theory is really the only answer to accept, in my opinion. I actually think it would take more faith(not faith in God) to believe in the other theories, personally.

So, evolution is undeniable, simply put. But that doesn't mean that we came from a 'lower life form', in whatever fashion you can truly use that statement.

Oh yeah...Gandalf, once again, very well posted.

WeaselInYerFoot

11-10-2005, 03:43 PM

You're talking about microevolution, where a being adjusts to it's surroundings for the sake of survival, also DNA mutation as well as gene flow of drift (Larger thorax at higher altitude for example). That is true. And as you say Darwin did propose, but he also took it a bit further and mentioned the idea of species changes by the means of a "clustered micro evolutionary step" so to speak, where the changes were so great that a signifact transformation occurred, which is macroevolution. Obvously, in todays science they are both very distinct and seperate from eachother, by the means of DNA mapping this has been determined. Not to mention, that an extreme amount of microevolution, even via forced mutation does not grow new or unique organs. You may be able grow three or four wings on a fruit fly (seeing that the design of a wing is already existant in the DNA) but you can't grow a finger (whos combination does not exist in the strands). Pretty much what Gandalf said.

So you're really simply twisting words. Calling what we asumed to be macroevolution, microevolution for the sake of getting along :p

MadCatholicGomer

11-10-2005, 04:18 PM

As a Protistent I had a great deal of respect for the Vatican, until I relized how complacent they were in the Sex Abuse Scandal... Continuing to Support Bishops who knew of the wrongdoing and just shuffled offending priests to other parishes...

This is just further Evidence, that God does not speak to the Pope, nor is he the Apostolic head of the "Christian church"....

I don't understand this. From what I have heard, sexual abuse has been worse in non-Catholic Christian denominations. I agree that there were mistakes made, but you don't (and nor do I) know what bishops and popes knew and when they knew it. You don't know what their intentions were and how much they understood about the mental diseases and problems that go with this sort of thing. I am not saying that none of them are to blame, but throwing out all respect because of mistakes is simply not fair. My guess is that a lot of them really wanted to believe that this is a problem that could be solved with professional help. Obviously looking back on it now, we see that that was not a prudent decision.

And... since when has the Church's teaching on the Pope said that "God speaks to him directly." Also, as far as leaders in the Church making mistakes, I seem to recall a few apostles betraying and denying Jesus, yet I don't remember Jesus revoking their calls to be Apostles...

1inamillion

11-10-2005, 04:24 PM

Well, I'm glad that you don't believe I said that.

Cause I didn't.

Well, I did, but sarcastically. That you would of found out if you read the rest of the thread :)
oops :o

SueQ

11-10-2005, 07:48 PM

I love the bumper sticker that says, " I believe in the Big Bang theory.....God said it and "Bang!"...it happened..."....God created everything...I am open to the possibilty that some organisms evolved to some degree since then...but I am not a descendant of apes...."

Howlin' Wolf

11-10-2005, 07:53 PM

I believe you have to literally read the whole Bible. I believe that you can read Genesis literally and show evidence that it happen just like God said

how then can we eat jesus' flesh and drink his blood then?

MadCatholicGomer

11-10-2005, 08:06 PM

how then can we eat jesus' flesh and drink his blood then?

:Hand Raised: I know! I know! Let me answer, teacher!

SueQ

11-10-2005, 10:05 PM

Yes, MCG, you may answer...

Mugirl04

11-11-2005, 12:35 AM

Let me recant and say that there are symbolic language in the Bible, we can literally read creation though

Angel777

11-11-2005, 04:24 AM