disturbing legal decision

[middletree]

Want something that will really make your blood boil? Here's a link to a pdf of a decision by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (in CA; the same judges who have been attacking the Pledge lately)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0356499p.pdf

This is about a group of students who were asked to fill out a survey which asked them questions that were sexual in nature. The school never bothered informing the parents. Or more correctly, a permissions letter was sent out, but it was very misleading. (see the bottom of page 4 to read the letter)

By the way, did I mention that these were young elementary-school kids?

It's 23 pages, but here's the opening paragraph. Read every word. The last part, starting with the "We agree" phrase, is chilling.


REINHARDT, Circuit Judge:

When parents of schoolchildren in Palmdale, California learned from their sons and daughters that they had been questioned in their public elementary school about sexual topics such as the frequency of “thinking about having sex” and “thinking about touching other peoples’ private parts,” some of them exercised their constitutional right to take their grievance to the courts. The questioning was part of a survey the Palmdale School District was conducting regarding psychological barriers to learning. The parents brought an action in district court against the School District and two of its officials for violating their right to privacy and their right “to control the upbringing of their children by introducing them to matters of and relating to sex.” They brought both federal and state claims. The district court dismissed the federal causes of action for failure to state a claim upon which relief could be granted and dismissed the state claims without prejudice to their right to re-file in state court. We agree, and hold that there is no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children, either independent of their right to direct the upbringing and education of their children or encompassed by it. We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students. Finally, we hold that the defendants’ actions were rationally related to a legitimate state purpose.

[Psalm25Gomer]

:eek: :mad:

[Trillamum]

This is why if I have children, it will take God coming down and telling me himself to do it if they ever go to public school....Errrgh! That just makes me want to scream and wring someone's neck.

[DareDevil]

I don't have a problem with such surveys as such, but I wonder about the age of those kids. I mean, I am not REALLY aquainted with the US school system but aren't kids who are in an elementary school rather young? I wonder about their physical ability to have sex too. I mean, don't you have to be at least in your puberty??? And what about their psychological development? I mean, if you want to talk with kids about sex then it should be done in an age appropriate way... and those questions are definetly NOT age appropriate.

If I was a dad and I would have been asked to give my permission for my kids to participate in that survey then I would DEFINETLY have said no in order to protect them.

[middletree]

I don't have a problem with such surveys as such,
<snip>
If I was a dad and I would have been asked to give my permission

But that's the problem: they were given a consent letter to sign, but it was very misleading and didn't tell the parents what the nature of the questions was.

The other problem with this decision is that the court ruled that parents don't have the final say-so when it comes to what they get told about sex and other subjects.

[larryl]

The other problem with this decision is that the court ruled that parents don't have the final say-so when it comes to what they get told about sex and other subjects.

unforetunately this is the case. we don't. the school decides. if we want to decide, we must make the decision before hand, by choosing the school.

my daughter is in public school, but i have been blessed with wonderful teachers.....this year she is taught by our church music minister's wife. :D i can assure you she would tell me to keep my daughter home that day....she would, in fact, likely be out that day herself.

[DareDevil]

But that's the problem: they were given a consent letter to sign, but it was very misleading and didn't tell the parents what the nature of the questions was.

The other problem with this decision is that the court ruled that parents don't have the final say-so when it comes to what they get told about sex and other subjects.
Yep, I understood that and I agree that this is definetly another aspect that makes it impossible to take this survey scientifically serious. A serious scientiest should NOT "work" like that. It is just plain wrong.

Now, on the matter of sex education at school...
Well, I DO think that kids should receive an age appropriate education about that no matter what the parents think but this intrusion should be kept to a minimum. It is simply in the interest of the kids when they know where the little babies are coming from, how the monthly cycle of a woman works and schools should make sure that kids/teenagers know about these things.

The moral aspect though... I think the schools should restrain themselves to saying that sex in and of itself is neither evil nor dirty but that there are varying moral systems that differ on what they have to say on that subject. THAT is the point where the parents should come in.

[Sharon]

This just SCREAMS for an appeal....is the ACLJ involved???

[AshleeDru]

unforetunately this is the case. we don't. the school decides. if we want to decide, we must make the decision before hand, by choosing the school.
I think that if you want to decide, then you teach your children yourself. If you want to instill your values in your children, and protect them from certain things before a certain age, then raise them on your own. Honestly, the moment you send your children in to the public/private school system, you give up your parental rights for six hours a day to teachers. I DO NOT mean to offend anyone with this post, it is my opinion and I feel very strongly about it. Agree or disagree, it's fine with me! :)

[middletree]

Nobody's offended. You have stated the way things are. I wish it wasn't that way. As a taxpayer, I'd like to see things change.

[AshleeDru]

Nobody's offended. You have stated the way things are. I wish it wasn't that way. As a taxpayer, I'd like to see things change.
I wish it wasn't that way either. Seeing things change would be awesome, but I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon.

[Pouye]

I wish it wasn't that way either. Seeing things change would be awesome, but I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon.

We do have options: Send your kids to a Christian school or homeschool.

For those who say they simply cannot afford to send their kids to a Christian school, I would strongly disagree with you. This will feel like a slap in the face, but I can just about guarantee that my wife and I make less money than you do per year and we are currently sending our daughter to a Christian school while we are in the USA.

We are home on furlough from the field, but we decided to try our best to send our daughter (and later, daughters) to a Christian school. The school costs about $4000 per year per child (our daughter is in 1st grade). That is about $330 bucks a month. We decided to rent a smaller living space (small, two bedroom), dump the cable TV, shop smart by buying bulk groceries and freezing them, not eating out except on very rare occasions, and making due with a cheap "point A to point B" vehicle (no car payments). The result is we can afford to send her to a Christian school because her quality education is more important to us than other things.

If we have to live in a small place, drive a clunker, and eat lots of rice and beans, so our kids can get a good education, then so be it. I'm not saying we are better than you. This is our conviction, and it might not be yours, and that is fine. Our conviction is that it is better to sacrifice some modern conveniences for a time and have our daughter(s) get a good education with Christian teacher who love them are care about their educational and spiritual needs than to have all the "bling-bling" of life. I can bet that if any husband and wife had the same convinctions we do that they could find a way to afford to send their kids to a sound, Christian school. I've found that it is rarely a money issue for most folks, since they usually make about 6 to 10 times the money we make.

Rock

[middletree]

We do have options: Send your kids to a Christian school or homeschool.

I agree with that, but the case/decision is still disturbing even if my own kids aren't affected by it.

[prayercloth sis]

God help us....please...

Rhonie

[AshleeDru]

We do have options: Send your kids to a Christian school or homeschool.
Did you read my earlier post? I kinda just said what you said.

[labrousse]

This is disturbing. Although I have conflicting views on the subjects of education:

I went to public school, as did my four siblings. My parents thought we needed the public-school experience (please keep in mind that at 21, I'm the youngest, and things were different back in 1972, when my oldest sister started school). I look at what the school system is now, and I swear not to put my kids into it.

But I don't like the idea of home-schooling. Many people just aren't cut out to be teachers. And I know a lot of home-schoolers who have all the social skills of a turnip. They have what I'll call the "Ivory Tower" mentality (for those of you not familiar, that's the term used to describe many Ivy League professors). They are young and full of knowledge, but very little common sense and connection to the real world.

At the same time, I see some of those same things in many people who went to private school: elitism, socially inept, and disconnected from reality. So I really don't know how I'm going to educate my children (if/when I have them).

Anyone else caught in something like this?

[ICarlson99]

Heard the current head of the school district on the radio yesterday (he wasn't the head at the time of this survey) - he said this had previously been rejected, then was backdoored in by a specific social worker and hadn't at all been approved. The district apologized and is "taking action" against the worker.

This doesn't change the absurdity of the 9th Circuit decision, but it does show that it didn't have the support of the district. He also said if he was a parent, he'd have joined the protest.

All the more reason we need vouchers - it's not fair that those who don't want their kids exposed to this (or other teaching) should have to pay EXTRA (beyond their taxes).

Someone asked about the age of the students - they were 1st, 3rd, and 5th graders (about 6, 8, and 10 years of age) - clearly inappropriate.

There was a motion made in the House of Reps to break up the 9th Circuit. Can't happen soon enough. If you ever find yourself in agreement with their rulings, you should re-consider your position.

[ICarlson99]

This is disturbing. Although I have conflicting views on the subjects of education:

I went to public school, as did my four siblings. My parents thought we needed the public-school experience (please keep in mind that at 21, I'm the youngest, and things were different back in 1972, when my oldest sister started school). I look at what the school system is now, and I swear not to put my kids into it.

But I don't like the idea of home-schooling. Many people just aren't cut out to be teachers. And I know a lot of home-schoolers who have all the social skills of a turnip. They have what I'll call the "Ivory Tower" mentality (for those of you not familiar, that's the term used to describe many Ivy League professors). They are young and full of knowledge, but very little common sense and connection to the real world.

At the same time, I see some of those same things in many people who went to private school: elitism, socially inept, and disconnected from reality. So I really don't know how I'm going to educate my children (if/when I have them).

Anyone else caught in something like this?

I'm caught in it. We have two young kids (2 and 3), and will have to make a decision soon. Thankfully we live in Georgia where this is less of a problem than California (where we moved from).

I think the stereotypes of homeschooled kids are out-dated. There are so many homeschool groups popping up that you can basically homeschool your kids as a community (does it really take a village? (shudder) ;) ).

I think the bottom line is that if parents are involved, the kids will turn out just fine. Some people use private schools as baby sitters as well, or assume that because they've sent their kids to an "elite" school, they (the parents) don't have to do anything. Most public school teachers are good people that don't want to get involved in these things either - my plan is to stay involved, find out from other parents what to expect from the teachers, and get to know the teachers themselves. (Sounds easy in theory, doesn't it?)

I'd have been much more concerned about public schools in California (where the curriculum is set at the state level), rather than places where the curriculum is set at the local level (i.e. the schools will more closely reflect the values of the immediate community).

My 2c

[Pouye]

I agree with that, but the case/decision is still disturbing even if my own kids aren't affected by it.

Very true!

Rock

[Pouye]

Did you read my earlier post? I kinda just said what you said.

Sorry... I did read your post, but I just wanted to add to it...
:D

Rock

[coldcupofjoe]

But I don't like the idea of home-schooling. Many people just aren't cut out to be teachers. And I know a lot of home-schoolers who have all the social skills of a turnip. They have what I'll call the "Ivory Tower" mentality (for those of you not familiar, that's the term used to describe many Ivy League professors). They are young and full of knowledge, but very little common sense and connection to the real world.

At the same time, I see some of those same things in many people who went to private school: elitism, socially inept, and disconnected from reality. So I really don't know how I'm going to educate my children (if/when I have them).


What's more important? That a person be 'socially well adjusted', the very thought of which makes me shudder btw, or having intelligence? As a Christian I would prefer to NOT be 'socially acceptable'. And as far as elitism goes. Well i was homeschooled, and as far as I can tell I'm not. My brother kinda is and he spent most of his educational career in public school. Elitism doesn't come from a style of education, it comes from thinking you are better than the rest. And from what I've seen it seems to be MORE rampant in public schools becuase of all the 'You can do ANYTHING you want' (really teacher i can kill people and get away with it?). I do agree that all parents aren't cut out to be teachers, there are PLENTY of cut and dried curriculums out there that are great. I had used a correspondance curriculum through Texas Tech University. BTW all it takes to be a teacher is to show interest in the student and some knoweldge of the subject.

[rossid]

We had a similar form come home and it was clearer regarding sexual questions that would be asked. We declined to let our children participate. Our kids are six and eight years old. The 9th district decision is VERY disturbing.

[labrousse]

What's more important? That a person be 'socially well adjusted', the very thought of which makes me shudder btw, or having intelligence? As a Christian I would prefer to NOT be 'socially acceptable'. And as far as elitism goes. Well i was homeschooled, and as far as I can tell I'm not. My brother kinda is and he spent most of his educational career in public school. Elitism doesn't come from a style of education, it comes from thinking you are better than the rest. And from what I've seen it seems to be MORE rampant in public schools becuase of all the 'You can do ANYTHING you want' (really teacher i can kill people and get away with it?). I do agree that all parents aren't cut out to be teachers, there are PLENTY of cut and dried curriculums out there that are great. I had used a correspondance curriculum through Texas Tech University. BTW all it takes to be a teacher is to show interest in the student and some knoweldge of the subject.

We may have different ideas on intelligence. To me, knowing lots of stuff about a subject doesn't mean squat if you can't apply it to the current situation. For example, it doesn't matter if I can recite all the important dates leading up to World War 2 if I don't understand how they connect, could have been prevented, and recognize a similar situation in today's world. Which is more useful?

Second, social skills are essential to successful living. I'm not talking about being "socially acceptable." No one who knows me would accuse me of being socially acceptable. I'm talking about the ability to interact successfully with others: debate a point without resorting to shouting and name-calling; being able to see a situation from someone else's perspective, whether you agree or not; be able to reach out and interact with people you're not familiar with in order to establish a relationship; having a realistic view of the world.

And BTW, it takes a little more than showing interest and having some knowledge of the subject to be a teacher. You have to be able to communicate an idea, possibly in more ways than one so that the student understands. And that's harder than most people think.

[AshleeDru]

But I don't like the idea of home-schooling. Many people just aren't cut out to be teachers. And I know a lot of home-schoolers who have all the social skills of a turnip. They have what I'll call the "Ivory Tower" mentality (for those of you not familiar, that's the term used to describe many Ivy League professors). They are young and full of knowledge, but very little common sense and connection to the real world.
Oh, yes. EVERYBODY thinks that homeschoolers are socially inept. Exactly how many homeschoolers do you know? I grew up my whole life being homeschooled along with my three younger brothers. I've been a secretary for our homeschool group for three years and have seen many, many homeschooled families. I've got a lot of experience with homeschooling, and out of 40 families, the only kids I can think of that are socially inept are two families. Other than those two families, all the kids I know and that I've known my whole life, have very good social skills and are very smart. And I'm not speaking (or typing ;)) knowing about only one side. I tutor kids at a public middle school, my dad is a teacher at that same school, and I've had many friends in the public school. All the homeschooled kids I know have been smarter and had great social skills. So please think before you make a generalization than that.

[AshleeDru]

What's more important? That a person be 'socially well adjusted', the very thought of which makes me shudder btw, or having intelligence? As a Christian I would prefer to NOT be 'socially acceptable'. And as far as elitism goes. Well i was homeschooled, and as far as I can tell I'm not. My brother kinda is and he spent most of his educational career in public school. Elitism doesn't come from a style of education, it comes from thinking you are better than the rest. And from what I've seen it seems to be MORE rampant in public schools becuase of all the 'You can do ANYTHING you want' (really teacher i can kill people and get away with it?). I do agree that all parents aren't cut out to be teachers, there are PLENTY of cut and dried curriculums out there that are great. I had used a correspondance curriculum through Texas Tech University. BTW all it takes to be a teacher is to show interest in the student and some knoweldge of the subject.
Right.

[labrousse]

To let ya'll know, I didn't/don't plan on bashing all homeschoolers. I'm just pointing out problems that I've seen. I haven't met just one or two home-schoolers. I have friends who were homeschooled, I've had several college classes with people who were homeschooled, a number of home-schooled students go to my church (which means I interact with them regularly, since I'm a youth leader at my church). On average, they're not as socially adjusted as other students. That's been my observation.

Some of you think I'm going to homeschool. I probably won't, unless my wife is in charge. I don't think I'd be a good teacher. I can't teach what I can't stand, and while I think education is important and very beneficial, I don't like school. I've never been a good student, and have never been able to stand school. Individual classes, yes (generally history or English classes), but not school. So unless my wife is a good teacher/is willing to do it, my kids won't be homeschooled.

Back on subject: someone mentioned the 9th Circuit being split up. I remember talking about that in a political science class. The reason for that possibility has absolutely nothing to do with the decisions being made, and everything to do with the size of their caseload (look at how much area they have to cover).

[Mugirl04]

I believe in sending your kids to public school, for the reason that it is a mission field and plus I believe that you have to teach your children to live in a world w/ different view where you are the minority and have to stand strong. I had a homeschool roomate in college and she was smart and knew how to study, but she didn't know how to act around people her own age or what to do in social situations

[AshleeDru]

To let ya'll know, I didn't/don't plan on bashing all homeschoolers. I'm just pointing out problems that I've seen. I haven't met just one or two home-schoolers. I have friends who were homeschooled, I've had several college classes with people who were homeschooled, a number of home-schooled students go to my church (which means I interact with them regularly, since I'm a youth leader at my church). On average, they're not as socially adjusted as other students. That's been my observation.

Some of you think I'm going to homeschool. I probably won't, unless my wife is in charge. I don't think I'd be a good teacher. I can't teach what I can't stand, and while I think education is important and very beneficial, I don't like school. I've never been a good student, and have never been able to stand school. Individual classes, yes (generally history or English classes), but not school. So unless my wife is a good teacher/is willing to do it, my kids won't be homeschooled.
It's the parents fault. It's up to them on whether or not their children interact well. It's not neccesarily homeschooling, kids in public school with the kind of parents some homeschooled kids have would turn out the same way.

[Mugirl04]

Originally Posted by Pouye
We do have options: Send your kids to a Christian school or homeschool

I wouldn't agree we have to learn to live in this world as Christians but not to be of the world. If we seprate our kids from the world we will not teach them the importance of a witness, or how to love other non-christians to bring them to Christ.

[AshleeDru]

I wouldn't agree we have to learn to live in this world as Christians but not to be of the world. If we seprate our kids from the world we will not teach them the importance of a witness, or how to love other non-christians to bring them to Christ.
Kids don't need to be in the world. They shouldn't be isolated or anything, but they need to be out of the world and have a strong walk with God before they are in the world. After they've established a good walk, then you can teach them how to witness. My opinion. ;)

[kh294God]

why don't understand why people are surprised by this....(i am against teaching elementary students about sex by the way)....look at what state this came from....didn't make sex marriage legal....you've got wonder about criminal justice system over there....

[middletree]

why don't understand why people are surprised by this....(i am against teaching elementary students about sex by the way)....look at what state this came from....didn't make sex marriage legal....you've got wonder about criminal justice system over there....
I didn't title this thread "surprising legal decision." I titled it "disturbing legal decision." Nobody was especially surprised. Doesn't make it any less problematic.