Undocumented Immigrants--Need your thoughts

[Tim]

As an elected official, I was invited to a huge forum concerning immigration issues that was held Wednesday in Phoenix. Big, big hot topic. Anyhow, I left more confused as they had all the experts from all over the USA and video taped messages from the AZ delegation. Last year in AZ alone, 588,000 were detained crossing the border. Estimates are that less than 10% are caught. You can do the math. Also the estimate given to us is that 10% of the citizens of Mexico now live in the USA as undocumented immigrants. Realistically, I would like your open thoughts on the topic. You may be aware that both Senators from AZ have introduced legislation and both are different. McCain and Kennedy have one that is quite different from Senator Kyle's which sort of mirrors what President Bush stated on Tuesday. Your thoughts?

[wbthornton]

Tim, I understand this is a very sticky problem for politicians because emotions tend to run high on both sides of the issue. I read this from an daily update from Gary Bauer.....

"No Exceptions"

Yesterday, the Bush Administration attempted to grapple with the
controversial subject of immigration reform - another issue dividing the
president's conservative supporters. On the positive side, Secretary of
Homeland Security Michael Chertoff, testifying before the Senate, said,
"Our goal at [the Department of Homeland Security] is to completely
eliminate the 'catch and release' enforcement problem, and return every
single illegal entrant, no exceptions. It should be possible to achieve
significant and measurable progress to this end in less than a year." On
the downside, why has this not been the goal from day one?

It is true that the overwhelming majority of folks coming across the border
are here looking for jobs and a better life. But we undermine all of our
laws when we allow our immigration laws to be so blatantly mocked. At the
same time, it is undeniable that there are also tremendous numbers of gang
members, drug dealers and OTMs ("other than Mexicans") coming across the
border, too.

One gang in particular, Mara Salvatrucha or MS-13, has already attracted
the attention of federal officials, who estimate there are as many as 10,
000 MS-13 gang members in the United States. They are vicious thugs known
for using machetes to hack off the hands of their victims. In February,
one MS-13 leader, who was responsible for a bus bombing in Honduras that
killed 28 people, was arrested in Texas! These thugs have not come to this
country looking to better their families or to contribute to society. They
are a threat to our homeland security.

There are deep divisions on Capitol Hill over the best way to proceed, and
the administration is also suggesting that it wants a guest worker plan as
part of any reform package. But, the first reaction to that suggestion
from many conservatives in Congress and at the grass roots is that it's not
going to be enough to promise progress on the borders in a year, while
demanding immediate passage of a bill granting quasi-amnesty to illegal
immigrants. If you are serious about securing your home, you don't leave
your front door wide open while you consider other options. As a nation,
if we are serious about homeland security, we should secure our borders
first.

I tend to agree with Gary. Illegals are in this country illegally.

[Tim]

By rule of law illegal is illegal. What might be a solution.

[prayercloth sis]

By rule of law illegal is illegal. What might be a solution.


Man, that's a tough one.....

[VeggieFan05]

I don't see how we can assume we are in any way secure in the US from terrorists, as long as the southern border remains essentially wide open for anyone. I think that, especially in the mainstream media, illegal immigrants (I prefer 'illegal' to the euphemism 'undocumented') are represented as merely hard working, honest (except for that minor infraction of thumbing their noses at our immigration laws) and eager to experience prosperity in the US. However, even if that is mainly the case, how many illegals crossing the border are dangerous criminals, terrorists, or just people eager to live off our welfare? Well, we don't know, because they're 'undocumented'! That's what scares me, and I think the only true, complete solution is to send the military, state guard, or whatever down to the border to make sure that we know who is coming into this country. Until then, any homeland security is only partially effective, at best.

That's my two cents. :D

[sirlok]

Yeah! It's a problem! and I get into it with my fellow latinos at times.
And like I tell friends and acquaintances alike, Im not gonna jump on the fact that their are some people who want to better their lives by trying out this thing called the American Dream. The fact remains that a large amount of offenders and repeat offenders of violent crimes come from people who are here illegally.
It really bugs me when I hear of a Police Officer who is shot and the illegal who shot him runs to Mexico where they end up protecting the suspect.
But thats not my point.
My point is that we're in a post 9/11 era in where we have to worry about who crosses our borders. It has been reported that the MS from El Salvador gets paid a lot by Al Quida to smuggle people and Nuk3s over our borders.
This to me is Scary! I worry for my family and friends not to mention the strangers I see every day.
Los Angeles has been a mark for a long time and I worry.
And to be honest, I believe this whole attack on the US is something "they've" been planning for a long long time now...I just hope the Sleepers don't wake up! In fact, when I pray, I ask the Lord to confuse the enemy...but I understand that its the Lords will and Not mine own that will be done.
(My Trust is in the Lord, but nonetheless I can't help to worry about my children. I just place them in the Lords hands and not think about it.)

I heard some politician mention putting towers several hundred yards apart along both borders. With Cameras to go along with them. They should really consider it.
The people of California spoke loud and clear when they tried giving Liscences to Illigals...I simply think its just wrong to go there.

Well, this was one Mexicans thoughts on this "touchy subject".
ImOut!

[RevZeek]

Tim, this is an issue that must be addressed. I have my opinion (as does everyone) but that doesn't even begin to address the actual problem. We have to remember that we have an approximately 2000-mile border with Mexico. Stationing soldiers along this border at regular intervals, while a good sounding idea is impractical and easily got around. With so many other commitments that our military has around the world, we would not be able to station that many soldiers (or guardsmen, or reservists) to a border that large and still maintain a presence in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. (I understand there is some controversy about those conflicts but I'm just pointing out that our military is otherwise occupied)

Deportation also is one of those great sounding ideas. However, this is fiscally impractical. Also, what do we do if the other nations won’t take them back? I know that we can always have the attitude of “it’s their problem now” but is that what we should do?

Here's a thought on how maybe to address this (I don't really like it but I can't think of another way to handle the situation without extreme measures)

Perhaps allow amnesty for illegals for a limited period of time…give them provisional citizenship…if they commit a crime they are immediately deported to their home country. At the same time after the amnesty period has expired, immediately deport ANY illegal immigrant unless they are able to attain asylum or other condition that I cannot remember now.

I know this is a long post and I have tried not to put my political opinions in this response. Looking forward to reading further replies.
-Zack

[Debbie]

Would it not work the same as any other country where you would obtain a Visa, temporary to potentially permanent? Is there a reason I am not aware of why this has never been a requirement previously?

Since Mexico is a connecting part of the US, would there be concerns that it would become the 51st state? WOW, I am getting tired. Non the less....with US laws, rules and resources, would this build a better way of life and the Mexican population stays put. Just some way out there thoughts....

[Thomas508]

I grew up in Dalton GA (The carpet captial of the world) and still work there in a carpet mill most of our work force is now mexican. Growing up there in the early 80's there were no mexicans, now they make up more than 51% of this industry town and they think at least 1/3 are illeagl I had to fire one not long ago because HR somehow found out his papers were not real he admitted to me they were fake and left to move down the street to the next mill. I get along with most of them and enjoy learning how to fix Mex. food but I don't understand why we have so many illeagls is it so hard to get papers? or do they just not want to be a real part of our country? Alot of them say they hate the USA but they have to be here to feed their familys! Some refuse to learn english which I don't understand either they could make more money if they did! Some know alot more english than they let on though they think they wont have to do much if they don't speak your language! Now don't get me wrong alot of them try to fit in and work hard etc... and there are several I call Friends, But I think America needs to look at these illeagls and stop it, if they come here and follow our procedures then thats fine but at the rate they (the illeagls) are growing we are paying for them (they generaly clame 10 dep. on their pay check so they don't have to pay taxes then go home for a few weeks during Christmas and come back with a different name in mid Jan!)while the money goes back to Mexico!

Billy T

[WeaselInYerFoot]

I grew up in Dalton GA (The carpet captial of the world) and still work there in a carpet mill most of our work force is now mexican. Growing up there in the early 80's there were no mexicans, now they make up more than 51% of this industry town and they think at least 1/3 are illeagl I had to fire one not long ago because HR somehow found out his papers were not real he admitted to me they were fake and left to move down the street to the next mill. I get along with most of them and enjoy learning how to fix Mex. food but I don't understand why we have so many illeagls is it so hard to get papers? or do they just not want to be a real part of our country? Alot of them say they hate the USA but they have to be here to feed their familys! Some refuse to learn english which I don't understand either they could make more money if they did! Some know alot more english than they let on though they think they wont have to do much if they don't speak your language! Now don't get me wrong alot of them try to fit in and work hard etc... and there are several I call Friends, But I think America needs to look at these illeagls and stop it, if they come here and follow our procedures then thats fine but at the rate they (the illeagls) are growing we are paying for them (they generaly clame 10 dep. on their pay check so they don't have to pay taxes then go home for a few weeks during Christmas and come back with a different name in mid Jan!)while the money goes back to Mexico!

Billy T


Yeah, it's extremely difficult to get papers. Atleast in Colombia, the irony is there's a certain social status you must have in order to get a visa. In other words, you can't be poor, and you must be competent in a high level academic field. I say it's ironic, because most of the poor - middle class people that I knew and tried to get visas, are the same ones that are willing to do the jobs that many spoiled Americans don't.

For example, I worked in landscaping in Florida for about 6 months. My boss, had no choice but to hire an illegal because anyone else he offered the job to would either complain that they were working too many hours and leave (which, in landscaping, there's ausually 8 to 10 hour days) or they would say that they could start their own company and make much more than 9 dollars an hour. Now granted, 9/hr is pretty low for landscaping, but it's good starting pay. There was a huge amount of illegals wiling to work however, and I talked to some, and one of them said he'd come to the US and work for a fiew months, then go home with more money than what he could make in a lifetime if he stayed within the boundaries of his own country. So the biggest reason as to why there's illegals here, is because of the oportunities. We say that they're taking away our jobs, but in all honesty, a great percentage of them are doing the things we feel embarassed to do ourselves. That's why the stereotipical cleaning lady is always a spanish speaking lady (in movies that is). That's why the yard guy is a mexican (again, in movies).

I think if the US takes all the illegal immigrants out of this country then we will be economically in trouble. I'm also sure that doing so will not prevent the terrorists from comming in anyway.

As far as them not learning english, or disliking the US, it really has nothing to do with the US being what it is. It's more of a personal issue. When you start enjoying your stay in another country and get more benefits from living there than yours, there is a sense of betrayal that you can't shake off. It's almost like you're betraying your country, family and friends that you left back in your home city. That was my case anyways. If you are highly patriotic, and you move to another country, you will try not to like it, or you will atleast express disdain towards it with your fellow compatriots. And the same goes with learning english, as you get older, the more difficult it is to learn another language. No one should be obligated to learn another language just so we can feel more confortable with them, or make our jobs easier. It's a very good help, but maybe it's just me, but I really like running into people who don't know english, and just trying to understand them and hearing them speak, it's kind of like that feeling you get when you discover something cool about the other side of the globe.

/rant off

EDITED for grammar (http://grammartime.ytmnd.com/)

[larryl]

No one should be obligated to learn another language just so we can feel more confortable with them, or make our jobs easier. It's a very good help, but maybe it's just me, but I really like running into people who don't know english, and just trying to understand them and hearing them speak, it's kind of like that feeling you get when you discover something cool about the other side of the globe.

/rant off

EDITED for grammar (http://grammartime.ytmnd.com/)

wow.....this seems crazy to me....there are many other countries where you must learn their language to get a good job, why should we be any different? i think we take our "tolerance" a little too far sometimes.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

wow.....this seems crazy to me....there are many other countries where you must learn their language to get a good job, why should we be any different? i think we take our "tolerance" a little too far sometimes.

Define "good job". I seems to me that being a line worker at a turkey factory doesn't have the same requirements as an HR personel. Most illegal immigrants don't come here to do office work. Those who do, either know english or will learn. But obligating every foreign individual that comes to live even in legal terms to learn english is a little short sighted.

[ICarlson99]

I don't think there needs to be any more justification as to why illegal immigration needs to be stopped ASAP. That's pretty well established. So what should be done?

1 - More border guards, and make it known publicly (heck, overstate how many there are - word will travel and make the coyotes more skittish)

2 - Give authority to local and state authorities to enforce immigration laws as well (come up with some kind of misdemeanor if it doesn't already exist, even if it's a technicality that allows them to detain and then turn over to feds). This would require undoing the damage by things like Special Order 40 in Los Angeles which actively prevents cops from detaining a known illegal even if that exact cop has arrested and had the person deported the day before. This is especially true for the cops on gang patrol.

3 - Crackdown on business. This is a tough one - but not because of conventional wisdom. I think most businesses try and do things on the up and up, but don't have the resources to check up on all social security cards, fake documents, etc. You can't expect a contractor to spend half his time in administrative work trying to find out if the person that they hired (or want to hire) is legit. But we HAVE to make that process easy and efficient for the willing employer to play by the rules.

As for the conventional wisdom about companies wanting cheap labor - I think that's a cop out. If I was a politician, which I'd love to be someday, I would openly solicit funds from businesses that want to crack down on illegal immigration. I'd play up the angle that those who play by the rules are being hurt by companies that don't - they can charge less for the same product or service. So challenge those companies that play fair to support me and I'll pledge to level the playing fields.

The irony is that unions should be adamantly behind this because it's costing jobs and undercutting wages of the lower-wage workers (who they allegedly are trying to protect).

And having spent 7 years in California, it's a complete falsehood that speaking against illegal immigration will cost someone the Hispanic vote - every time something came up on the ballots to cut back on services illegals could apply for, etc - it won the majority of the Hispanic vote. Why? Crime. Illegal immigration hurts the Hispanic community the hardest - competition for jobs, and gangs.

This issue is a no-brainer, but everyone's scared to death of the activists. It's pathetic.

[MadCatholicGomer]

"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing" (Deut. 10:18).

"And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt" (Deut. 10:19).

"Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns" (Deut. 24:14).

"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge" (Deut. 24:17).

"'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!'" (Deut. 27:19).

"The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked" (Ps 146:9).

"This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place" (Jer. 22:3).

"'So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty'" (Malachi 3:5).

[ICarlson99]

Not sure what your point is....

I'm not convinced the government is to be the arm of God. My read is that the scripture tells us how individuals are to behave.

Wouldn't "withholding justice from the alien" mean allowing them to be the victims of crime without charging the perpetrator? I don't see the relevance.

What about giving an illegal food and clothing while they're deported - is that against scripture?

Do you think there even EXIST such things as illegal immigrants? If so, what should be done? If not, then what is the purpose of a government?

[lilmikey]

They need to stop worrying abot the ones coming throgh from Mexico and start worrying about the sleepers who own all the convienent stores

[Gandalf]

There are two basic issues here, and people seem to get them confused:
1. Legal Immigration
2. Illegal Immigration
We must take action against the latter; people who oppose such action usually make arguments that are related to the former. We must fund the border patrol to a level that they can catch most of the illegal aliens crossing the border, and not do the "catch & release" type actions that are currently happening with non-Mexican illegals. Any person who is caught illegally entering the United States should be detained until they can be deported. Anyone who is caught illegally entering the United States should be barred from ever legally entering the United States in the future as well, to discourage people from circumventing legal channels. Anyone who's currently here illegally should be deported as well, except possibly people who were brought here as children, rather than breaking the law themselves, and who wish to stay and become citizens. (e.g. the college student in Utah a while back whose parents brought her here at age 2, and who thought she was here legally)

Legal immigration should be simplified, and opened up to a large extent. But, I think the "jobs Americans won't do" argument is a load of... well, you can fill in the blank. It's not that Americans won't do agricultural jobs; it's that people don't want to work for dirt-cheap wages when they have alternatives. The job isn't the issue: the pay is. We should, however, allow more law-abiding people to legally enter our country and become part of our society. America was built on immigration, and it should be encouraged.

[Tim]

Some interesting points.

Amnesty for all was done in about 1986. Those who have become citizens the legal way oppose this idea.

I heard the guy who runs this website http://www.cis.org/ debate and he had some interesting points.

Biblical scriptures were interesting to read in the argument. Obviously many an "alien" get taken advantage of hindering wage growth for many.

Punishing businesses that hire might prove effective. Not done very often.

From the stats above it was noted that an undocumented immigrant costs the US taxpayer about $89,000 in services exceeding the taxes paid over a lifetime in the US. Services would include any type of public assistance. Anyhow, for some info check out:

http://spaces.msn.com/members/timfruth/ I have listed some other websites and info.

[ICarlson99]

Punishing businesses that hire might prove effective. Not done very often.


Any true reform must include this. And in a serious way, not a token, unrealistic way. At least outsourcing is done above board. Businesses that employ illegals cost the country tax revenues as well.

[ICarlson99]

Tim,

Here is a great article from the City Journal, mostly focusing on illegal immigration impact in Los Angeles - largely from the criminal/gang activity perspective. You might find it interesting. (Oh, and I agree with you on your website that Kyl's bill is better than McCain's - just make sure you take the "e" off the end of "Kyl" :p )

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.ht ml

Here are some highlights:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

[Tim]

Thanks for the article link.

[tugboat]

There are two basic issues here, and people seem to get them confused:
1. Legal Immigration
2. Illegal Immigration
We must take action against the latter; people who oppose such action usually make arguments that are related to the former. We must fund the border patrol to a level that they can catch most of the illegal aliens crossing the border, and not do the "catch & release" type actions that are currently happening with non-Mexican illegals. Any person who is caught illegally entering the United States should be detained until they can be deported. Anyone who is caught illegally entering the United States should be barred from ever legally entering the United States in the future as well, to discourage people from circumventing legal channels. Anyone who's currently here illegally should be deported as well, except possibly people who were brought here as children, rather than breaking the law themselves, and who wish to stay and become citizens. (e.g. the college student in Utah a while back whose parents brought her here at age 2, and who thought she was here legally)

Legal immigration should be simplified, and opened up to a large extent. But, I think the "jobs Americans won't do" argument is a load of... well, you can fill in the blank. It's not that Americans won't do agricultural jobs; it's that people don't want to work for dirt-cheap wages when they have alternatives. The job isn't the issue: the pay is. We should, however, allow more law-abiding people to legally enter our country and become part of our society. America was built on immigration, and it should be encouraged.


I was about to write essentially the same thing as Brian so I just took the lazy mans way out and used the quote button. :p

I agree, especially with his last paragraph. The main reason the illegal immigration problem is what it is today, stems from employers who want to get something for nothing. I'm all for free enterprise and making money and trying to make improvements to the old "bottom line", but if your business requires labor so cheap that you have to hire an illegal to do it, I'd say something was wrong with your business.

So yes, tighten up border security, but work on the employer side too.
If you dry up the demand, the supply should dry up too.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Legal immigration should be simplified, and opened up to a large extent. But, I think the "jobs Americans won't do" argument is a load of... well, you can fill in the blank. It's not that Americans won't do agricultural jobs; it's that people don't want to work for dirt-cheap wages when they have alternatives. The job isn't the issue: the pay is...

True, the pay could be better... much better.. But I think that if the pay was raised, and all foreigners working for them were gone, then as a reasult prices would be raised. Supermarkets would spend more on food, and by extention so would we. And that's only if wal-mart decides to spend the extra money, which, like most companies (whos obligation is to take care of their shareholders) they would most likely go for outsourcing overseas if at all possible. This is just speculation so correct if I'm wrong of course. It's hard to keep me interested in economics
:p

[Tim]

One of the conservative arguments is that agriculture relys on cheap labor and it has actually kept them from improving production techniques through technology. They have no incentive to improve as long as they are dependent on cheap labor.

[kiwimobro]

Cheap labour has always been around. Technology keeps advancing (especially in the last 100 yrs)
Maybe if cheap burgers and coffee were not in such demand multinational companies would not have bought out farmer's fields in 'overseas' nations and their farmers would still have land to provide themselves food and not have to venture further away from their traditional livelyhoods.
Consider a subsistance farmer (yes, there a millions who live like this in the world today ~ if not billions) who has little grasp of his own language (especially written) and NO idea of US laws concerning immigration. He has no idea what we are discussing here - he has a family to feed, crops that have failed and not much hope of anything other than what rumors there are of the grass being greener somewhere else.

Thanks for the scriptural input MadCatholicGomer.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Ultimately, I believe the solution to the Immigration problem is a lot simpler than what people make it. First of all, let me explain what it is that a person with high ambition, good work ethics, and a little extra money (just enough to travel) goes through. He can't make a decent living in his homecoutnry, one that'll take care of his family as well as provide some security. He knows that there's better opportunities in other places and therefore sets out to change his life. So he applies for a Visa to travel to the U.S. only to get rejected by a self-concieved, moronic interviewer who only gives visas to the son a rich kid who will most likely never work while he stays in the US and spends most of his lifetime taking up space and asking dad for money.

So the biggest problem here, is not that there are too many illelgals, but that there are to fiew legals and even fiewer of those that actually came here to have a chance at a new life. The process by which a visa or greencard is obtained is what needs to change. The poor and frustrated immigrants deserve a greater chance of obtaining a better life. A snot nosed idiot who will provide nothing to society save for some income for the local metrosexual beauty shop is ecnomicaly fine and his family is taken care of.

These past decades, the immigration policy has changed from "What can the US do for you to improve your quality of life?" to "Do you meet our standards of life and can you fit in with our high-end society?"