"Hurricane Katrina"

[ICarlson99]

Am I missing something? Is there already a thread on this? If not...should we feel bad about that? I'd hate to think I'm just being overly sensitive :(

Anyone know anybody stuck in it? Anyone here directly affected by it? We got some tornadoes and storms here near Atlanta, but it's amazing what's happening in New Orleans.

Which begs another question - how do you build a city below sea level that's right on the coast???

[larryl]

we are in-directly affected here in the atlanta area.....i realized that when i saw gas at $3.25 on my way home a little while ago.....

apparently the pipe lines are down...

CNN Money (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm?cnn=yes)

[popetart]

Most people have been keeping up on Katrina over in the P&P forum.

Yes, some here have been directly affected. I had to evacuate from New Orleans. Sandi (believer) lives in the Covington area (north shore of lake pontchartrain).

[ICarlson99]

Most people have been keeping up on Katrina over in the P&P forum.

Yes, some here have been directly affected. I had to evacuate from New Orleans. Sandi (believer) lives in the Covington area (north shore of lake pontchartrain).

Glad to hear you made it out safely!

I'll go over to the other thread, thanks for enlightening me!

[Gandalf]

Am I missing something? Is there already a thread on this? If not...should we feel bad about that? I'd hate to think I'm just being overly sensitive :(

Anyone know anybody stuck in it? Anyone here directly affected by it? We got some tornadoes and storms here near Atlanta, but it's amazing what's happening in New Orleans.

Which begs another question - how do you build a city below sea level that's right on the coast???
There are threads about it in both P&P and maybe also the Zone. I think no one else thought it'd be a controversial topic that needed to be in the CE forum :)

My grandparents, and some cousins live in southern Mississippi; my grandpa's in Ocean Springs, just east of Biloxi. They're all fine though, and their house isn't severely damaged either.

As for NO, blame the French :)

[mat1583]

My cousin and his wife had a purse & t-shirt shop right there in the center of New Orleans. Their apartment was right above the store. They evacuated to Scottsboro before the cain. From what I hear, I think their shop is all under water, so it's probably going to be a complete loss for them along with the apartment.

-washboard

[*mz.confused*]

we're in central mississippi (louisville to be exact) lots of power still out here and most of it isn't expected to be on for another week and up to 3 weeks. and about gas.... there is none! every drop of gas in our town is gone! and there probably wont be any for about 10 days is what we're being told...

[ICarlson99]

My cousin and his wife had a purse & t-shirt shop right there in the center of New Orleans. Their apartment was right above the store. They evacuated to Scottsboro before the cain. From what I hear, I think their shop is all under water, so it's probably going to be a complete loss for them along with the apartment.

-washboard

If it wasn't washed away, it's probably been looted :mad:

[Howlin' Wolf]

The single, “Cry Out To Jesus,” was rushed to radio stations in the wake of the tragedy throughout the Gulf states. The band, the label, management and everyone involved have been shaken by the devastation that has occurred to our brothers and sisters in the south. Our hope is that this song will be like salve on the wounds of those who are hurting.

“"We can't turn on the news without our hearts breaking for the people suffering through the devastation left by Katrina. Our sincere desire for this record and "Cry Out To Jesus" is to offer hope to hurting people. We know people's lives will be forever changed by the storm that hit this week. Our prayers and thoughts are with our brothers and sisters and their families in the Gulf States. We hope this song can bring even a small amount of hope and light to this dark hour." - Mac Powell (Third Day)

why not give the proceeds of the sales to those in need?

[SnoopyFreak]

why not give the proceeds of the sales to those in need?

It doesn't say they're not going to. Maybe we should wait and see what's going to happen.

[*mz.confused*]

If it wasn't washed away, it's probably been looted :mad:

i heard earlier about some guy down there that took a tv... what good's that gonna do him! it's not like he's got any electricity or cable... :confused:

[Gandalf]

Considering the band's past affiliation with groups such as World Vision & Habitat for Humanity, they probably are personally helping those in need. What they do with the royalties from a specific song is hardly our concern.

[ali_jacobs]

We should probably see what we can do ourselves before we ask and expect others to give and keep on giving.

[roush2]

Considering the band's past affiliation with groups such as World Vision & Habitat for Humanity, they probably are personally helping those in need. What they do with the royalties from a specific song is hardly our concern.

I agree...actually...i'm thankful they even wrote the song...some things money can't help...emotions need to be lifted and helped too

[Gandalf]

We should probably see what we can do ourselves before we ask and expect others to give and keep on giving.
Agreed.

[ali_jacobs]

I agree...actually...i'm thankful they even wrote the song...some things money can't help...emotions need to be lifted and helped too

You make a very good point. People need help right now just as much, (if not more) emotionally and spiritually as they do physically.

[scudgie]

My heart is just breaking over everything that has happened because of Katrina. I want everyone in the affected states to know I'm praying. BTW, does anyone know whether the song was released just locally in the south or whether it was nationwide? My local Christian station is based just across the border from me in Washington state. I haven't heard anything about it yet.

Marta

[Eowyn]

Which begs another question - how do you build a city below sea level that's right on the coast???

The real question is WHY?!?!


we're in central mississippi (louisville to be exact) lots of power still out here and most of it isn't expected to be on for another week and up to 3 weeks. and about gas.... there is none! every drop of gas in our town is gone! and there probably wont be any for about 10 days is what we're being told...

My dad is in Biloxi on the tornado damage, when they get through with that, THEN they work on hurricane damage. He helps restore power, so you should be getting power soon!

[N0th1n9C0mpares]

The band that I'm in have gathered together and decided to put together a local event where people came come, see us play, have a fun time, but the important thing is we are accepting a free will Offering and we will take the money and give it to The American Red Cross, or World Vision, and it will go to the people, especially new orleans, who are in need of it. We decided to make this local, but it would be great if everyone could atleast give some heart, and donate some cash to the associations near you to help the people in need. I mean, think about it, what if this was you? Wouldn't you feel bad then? So take part in this event and contribute your money to groups and orginizations for the katrina victims. Now Who's with me?

[Skw0484]

now obviously, i don't think it was a good thing at all.

honestly, i get frustrated with trying to understand disasters of a large perportion while reconciling that God is still in control. but He's God. i am not. there it is. so, while all of the stuff that happens really sucks, it's ultimately what we do with our pain that counts. my choice is to bring it to Him.

i just wanted to post this bulletin so that you know that there are those claiming to belong to the body of Christ that might object to any of us feeling upset over this. westboro baptist church [an institution that i often speak of, mainly in the context that i regret that it even exists] made a press statement of sorts on the front page of their website. here's part of it:

"Pray for more dead bodies floating on the fag-semen-rancid waters of New Orleans.
Pray for more American bodies blown to smithereens by cheap home made Iraqi IEDs - like the IED America bombed WBC with August 20, 1995, hoping thereby to terrorize us into silence about America's fag sins."

i really really want to cry right now. yeah, i know it's not cool or whatever, but geez.

i can understand people having hidden motives [i.e. radical homophobia in WBC's case], and them using little news tidbits to nurture their bigotry, but a major natural disaster? they did this back when the tsunamis hit too, also claiming that God allowed them to hit because there were american and swedish tourists in the area, and both countries happen to have citizens of a certain kind that this church doesn't like, God really must've wanted to kill all those people.

so because these people don't like other people, God automatically agrees with them and decides to kill more than 150,000 people and leave many more homeless. this, to me, is a lesson to us in letting God be God and not putting our words and biases in His mouth.

i know that it probably won't do any good, but if you find a little time, send an email to these folks [info@godhatesamerica.com] and let them know that you don't appreciate their agenda being shoved into our God's mouth.

thanks for reading. later.

[Howlin' Wolf]

honestly, i get frustrated with trying to understand disasters of a large perportion while reconciling that God is still in control. but He's God. i am not. there it is. so, while all of the stuff that happens really sucks, it's ultimately what we do with our pain that counts. my choice is to bring it to Him.

why? the hurricane shows me that he is total control. it doesnt make me doubt his sovereignty at all. but only confirms it.

and as far as the westboro baptist stuff, back in 2000, i was banned from these boards for the very first time for posting a link to their website and exposing their hate.

[ObiShawn]

I was talking with a Christian woman the other day and she was commenting about how "Sin City" (New Orleans) only got what it deserved. Then, just moments later, she started talking about how she was gonna help with the relief effort . . .

It's amazing how much people don't understand about the nature of God. (no pun intended) There are so many out there that think God is out to "get them." If something unfortuate happens, they say that God was "getting them back."

Jesus took the full punishment, so why in the world would anyone else have to? That would make His death be in vain.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I was talking with a Christian woman the other day and she was commenting about how "Sin City" (New Orleans) only got what it deserved. Then, just moments later, she started talking about how she was gonna help with the relief effort . . .

It's amazing how much people don't understand about the nature of God. (no pun intended) There are so many out there that think God is out to "get them." If something unfortuate happens, they say that God was "getting them back."

Jesus took the full punishment, so why in the world would anyone else have to? That would make His death be in vain.

because God is still just

[ObiShawn]

because God is still just

So are you saying that you basically agree? That God was punishing New Orleans and the surrounding area because of sin?

[Howlin' Wolf]

So are you saying that you basically agree? That God was punishing New Orleans and the surrounding area because of sin?
god could have stopped the hurricane, he didnt. are u saying that God had nothing to do with this? that he's just sitting in heaven, surprised by everything that happens?

[ObiShawn]

You didn't answer my question. It's a simple yes or no . . .

god could have stopped the hurricane, he didnt. are u saying that God had nothing to do with this? that he's just sitting in heaven, surprised by everything that happens?

No, I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I do not believe that any one can say with certainty that God was punishing New Orleans.

[bholdj]

I have no idea why God allowed this to happen, or why clowns like the individuals at www.ihateamerica.com are having there way in internet, and local circles. I do know that the body of Christ will never have a clue as to why God allows bad things to happen, however the body of belivers can be comforted that He is with us nontheless...

John 16:29-33
25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”
29 His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! 30 Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.”
31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will[d] have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Oh yes, we have no idea when death will come for us, but as Christ was with his disciples during there darkest hour, so He is with us in ours! This is the answer to the "why does God allow bad things to happen" question people, that we are powerless yes Christ is powerful. Not in preventing disasters, but in Love of his children, and patching together what a horrible world has done due to the fall.

Christ saw tribulations coming, surley we as His children should see it as well, and take comfort in the fact that though we cannot stop nature, tradegy, hurricanes, we can know that Christ is with us and loves us through it all.

Jesus loves me, this i know. By the Grace of God may no hurricane, death, or satan himself tell me, or any of us different.

Sola Christos

John

[bridges]

First of all, I know that the Lord has His way in the whirlwind.

Secondly, the name Katrina means "cleansing". I figured somebody would point that out sooner.

Am I saying that God has punished New Orleans? I think the results of the storm speak volumes. It is a shame that many people who love the Lord dearly have been made to suffer because of this, but we live on the same planet with the wicked. Because the wicked aggravated God so much, Noah and his family had to smell manure, etc. in close quarters for months in the ark. Because the wicked aggravated the Lord, Lot ended up living in a cave, and Lot was a city man. Plus, he ended up fathering his own grandsons. The wicked bring a lot of grief on us all. The righteous can take the heat, because God will not let more come on us than we can bear. Faith without trials would not be strong.

I will say this in closing on behalf of the United States of America, in which I am so grateful to reside: of all nations, this one was founded by people whose chief motivation was to have a place where they could worship the Lord God Almighty according to their own good consciences toward him, founded on godly principles by men who insisted that the Bible be taught in schools, men who prayed. If you've never seen that picture of George Washington kneeling at Valley Forge, you have missed a powerful image that is forever indelibly etched into my mind's eye. We have become more tolerant of the ungodly who live in our midst, but nevertheless, as a nation, we have served, and will serve to the end, the purpose for which God caused us to be established. Hallelujah! And God Bless America.

[mercyGurl]

I, personally think that we confuse "goodness" with "safe".

Do I believe that God is a good God? Yes. Does that mean every decision that he wants me to make will be safe? No. God's goodness is beyond our understanding. One of my favorite quotes is, If God were small enough to understand, he wouldn't be big enough to worship. Whether this was in God's perfect will, or if he just let free will happen, it doesn't matter. What matters is that he is a good God.

"As for God, his way is perfect..."

[kiwisongbird]

Man! I find it really difficult to even think that Christians would write such hateful stuff about "fags and semen" - sure N.O. is a super sin city, sure the south of Thailand and areas that the tsunami struck have their evils too - how on earth will such people cope if something catostrophic happens somewhere that they think God thinks is ok???????

Sin is sin, I shout at my kids - I forget to think of others before myself - I take my life back from God at times - I think bad thoughts... sin is sin - it is horrible - there are no levels of sin - our good works are like filthy rags in His sight... go figure!!

My friends lost everything in the recent floods in Chiang Mai, they are really, really Godly people, doing His work here - other missionaries lost stacks as well, many arriving back here at the end of their summer in America to find their houses trashed by the waters - Godly people, doing His work - then I have people here say to me that God protected them and their houses didn't flood because they are doing what He wants so they get protected!

I find it harder to figure out why Christians think the way they do than to try to figure out why bad things happen to Godly people.

I think the disaster in the South of USA is now an awesome God-given opportunity for His people to show the world how much they care and how compassionate His church is...

Looking at the photos on the net I see amongst the survivors, amongst the victims, amongst those who have survived not only the floods but the horrors of the superdome - I see black people, I see poor people and I see elderly and sick people - I see people without a voice, without any of the necessary tools to get their message across in a materialistic society - yeah America has Christian foundation, but it is materialistic...

What an awesome opportunity for the true church in America to help these people who now have nothing - even less than they had before!!! Let those with insurance and families with money who can find help so easily help themselves, rally now and help those with no voice, no power, no insurance and maybe, just maybe they may end up with the full riches of heaven because God's people have stood in the gap for them.

Um, well, that's all I want to say - I hope you all still love me - I still love you - I just feel so sad and frustrated about what I've seen. :)

[sandie]

Sharon: What a wonderful post! :)

I was also thinking of your friends in Thailand who lost everything in the floods. Rain seems to fall on both the just and the unjust- not just rain from the skies, but hard times in our lives.

This is an opportunity for God's people to show His love to those whose lives have been so badly affected.

Sandra.

[prayercloth sis]

I know that in my heart Third Day will help. How much they help is their business alone. We do not know if they have personal needs, or family members that were involved. I am very thankful that they care enough to help and to allow God to work in their band and their lives. God Bless Third Day and all that they do!!!!

[prayercloth sis]

I think that the question should be what can I do? Pray, donate, volunteer, all of which I am doing. I give God all the glory for what he allows me to do. Thank you Lord for the love and the outpour of concern in this desparate time. Allow us all to help in one way or another. In Jesus Name Amen.

The burden is for us all to bear.

[tristen]

I know that in my heart Third Day will help. How much they help is their business alone. We do not know if they have personal needs, or family members that were involved. I am very thankful that they care enough to help and to allow God to work in their band and their lives. God Bless Third Day and all that they do!!!!
Amen! It is truly none of our business what they do. Plus, not everyone wants people to know what they have volunteered or donated....

[Corrine]

why not give the proceeds of the sales to those in need?
There are no "sales" of the song. It's on radios, and you can download it for free. This song is on radio stations across the country, including major market secular stations, and is moving people to reach down and give. That is helping on a larger magnitude than Third Day could do on their own. In additon, the band themselves have given $10,000 in matching funds this past weekend. At two shows, Kansas City, MO, and Sioux Falls,SD, the band raised over $51,000 for Katrina relief efforts.

[bridges]

Thank you, Ladies!

I was reminded the other day about what Jesus said about the eighteen upon whom the tower of Siloam fell. He asked the crowd gathered if they supposed that those folks were worse sinners than the rest of them, and He warned them that unless they repented, they would all die (and by that, He meant permanently).

I am certain that some of those who perished recently on the Gulf Coast were ready. The point that they were godly is secondary to this point: they were ready. Some were not. That urges me on.

Not everyone will repent at our word, any more than they did at the words of Noah, Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Samuel, John the Baptist, the Apostles, or our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. But just keep on planting the seeds. The harvest is always coming to fruition!

[ICarlson99]

From a logical argument perspective you might have a case had the hurricane only hit New Orleans, but it didn't. If you say God allowed the hurricane to hit New Orleans because it was "evil", why then did it destroy so much "non-evil" all along the Gulf Coast?

Hurricanes, and other disasters - natural or man-made, happen because we live in a fallen world. Disaster falls on good and bad alike - the bad often bring more upon themselves through the natural consequences of their behavior. Otherwise we're just left with the 'health-wealth' and similar philosophies.

[Howlin' Wolf]

You didn't answer my question. It's a simple yes or no . . .



No, I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I do not believe that any one can say with certainty that God was punishing New Orleans.


then why would God send the hurricane? for giggles?

why did he strike down sodom and gomorra? for fun? why send the floods? because he's bored?

and to answer your question in the word forum about "why would someone believe that God would punish a city and then christians go send aid"

that isnt a contradiction. its a contradiction to you because you do not fundamentally understand the God of scripture. if you did, then it would make sense. God is a god of justice. God hates sin. God is a God of righteous judgement. but he's also a God that is actively pursuing his church. he's also a God of compassion. and after his righteous judgement was poured out, he's equipped his church with the means to reach out and show grace to all those that survived. why? because in times of turmoil and struggle, trials and tribulations, people are humbled and are reaching out for something to save them. the harvest is white in the gulf now

[ObiShawn]

From a logical argument perspective you might have a case had the hurricane only hit New Orleans, but it didn't. If you say God allowed the hurricane to hit New Orleans because it was "evil", why then did it destroy so much "non-evil" all along the Gulf Coast? Another question you might ask is "how come God missed a few?" After the hurricane hit, there were people raping, looting, killing, and shooting at the very people trying to give them aid. If God was truly targerting New Orleans, I doubt He would have messed up.

[Howlin' Wolf]

then why would God send the hurricane? for giggles?

why did he strike down sodom and gomorra? for fun? why send the floods? because he's bored?

and to answer your question in the word forum about "why would someone believe that God would punish a city and then christians go send aid"

that isnt a contradiction. its a contradiction to you because you do not fundamentally understand the God of scripture. if you did, then it would make sense. God is a god of justice. God hates sin. God is a God of righteous judgement. but he's also a God that is actively pursuing his church. he's also a God of compassion. and after his righteous judgement was poured out, he's equipped his church with the means to reach out and show grace to all those that survived. why? because in times of turmoil and struggle, trials and tribulations, people are humbled and are reaching out for something to save them. the harvest is white in the gulf now

bump

[ObiShawn]

then why would God send the hurricane? for giggles?

why did he strike down sodom and gomorra? for fun? why send the floods? because he's bored? First of all, I don't beleive God sent the hurricane. I'll admit He didn't stop it but that doesn't mean He sent it. There is a difference. The people knew it was coming, they could have evacuated (most could have). Just because they stayed and ended up dying doesn't mean God was trying to kill them.

Second, He struck down Sodom and Gomorrah because of the greatness of their sin (Genesis 18:20-21). But we are under a New Covenant. Jesus suffered and died for the sins of the whole world, not just the precious "calvinistic elect." This means He took on the full extent of the punishment for every person that had lived up to that point and up until the day that He would return to call us home. That is how God showed His mercy and His judgement, by putting it all on His Son (Isaiah 53). This is what the New Testament teaches. To deny this is to rip out the last half of the bible and urinate on it.

and to answer your question in the word forum about "why would someone believe that God would punish a city and then christians go send aid" that isnt a contradiction. its a contradiction to you because you do not fundamentally understand the God of scripture. No, it is a contradiction. If God is as freaking vengeful as you and a few others have made Him out to be, if He were that tyranical, then He would indeed view Christians that help out the very people He tried to destroy as acting against His will. (By the way, He missed a few, see my previous post. In other words, that means God failed. And since it is impossible for God to fail, then that must mean He didn't intend to wipe out New Orleans).

in times of turmoil and struggle, trials and tribulations, people are humbled and are reaching out for something to save them. the harvest is white in the gulf nowRomans 2:4 teaches me that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. 2 Corinthians 7:9-10 also add that Godly sorrow leads men to repentance. God does use circumstances to get our attention, but that is where you make the distinction between Him dicsiplining His children (Hebrews 12:5-8) and killing off sinners.

Let me ask you something. Why would God kill off a bunch of sinners for doing what they can't help but do? They are lost, being a sinner is only natural. God knows this (Romans 8:7). I don't knwo what book you are reading, but the one I read says:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should parish but that allshould come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

And you tell me I don't understand the God of scripture . . . :rolleyes:

[Howlin' Wolf]

First of all, I don't beleive God sent the hurricane. I'll admit He didn't stop it but that doesn't mean He sent it. There is a difference. The people knew it was coming, they could have evacuated (most could have). Just because they stayed and ended up dying doesn't mean God was trying to kill them.

then the devil must have sent the hurricane :rolleyes: since he controls the weather and all. and nobody ever said that God was trying to kill every single person in new orleans. i never said that. so dont put words in my mouth to make your point.
your denial of sovereignty is disturbing

Second, He struck down Sodom and Gomorrah because of the greatness of their sin (Genesis 18:20-21). But we are under a New Covenant. Jesus suffered and died for the sins of the whole world, not just the precious "calvinistic elect." This means He took on the full extent of the punishment for every person that had lived up to that point and up until the day that He would return to call us home. That is how God showed His mercy and His judgement, by putting it all on His Son (Isaiah 53). This is what the New Testament teaches. To deny this is to rip out the last half of the bible and urinate on it.

jesus died for the sins of the church
see these verses
john 10:15, 17:6, 9, 19, 11:51-52
mark 10:45
matt 26:28
hebrews 9:28
ephesians 5:25-27
your argument, that jesus died for the sins of the whole world, so God wouldnt punish sins anymore directly contradicts every end times prophecy and directly contradicts the words and nature of God. Christ died to redeem sinners, not give sinners a free pass to sin at will without fear of condemnation. believers are the only ones who are to be without fear of condemnation because we are the ones that have received sonship
No, it is a contradiction. If God is as freaking vengeful as you and a few others have made Him out to be, if He were that tyranical, then He would indeed view Christians that help out the very people He tried to destroy as acting against His will. (By the way, He missed a few, see my previous post. In other words, that means God failed. And since it is impossible for God to fail, then that must mean He didn't intend to wipe out New Orleans).

God is as vengeful as the old and new testament to be. God is not some buddy God that loves all. he hates the wicked. he hates sin. after judgment comes grace. this was the same formula that worked after jesus' sacrifice. and just because God hates something, doesnt give me the right to hate them. a faith based on grace and love compels me to serve despite the fact that God is the author of the tragedy. remember Job. God allowed satan to punish him to strengthen his faith. the God you are preaching is a God that is in heaven with his hands bound, begging people to believe in him, and incapable of saving any.

Romans 2:4 teaches me that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. 2 Corinthians 7:9-10 also add that Godly sorrow leads men to repentance. God does use circumstances to get our attention, but that is where you make the distinction between Him dicsiplining His children (Hebrews 12:5-8) and killing off sinners.
do people live forever? why is "killing off sinners" as you so eloquently put it any different than what happened in the book of Joshua, in the desert in Exodus, when the red sea was parted, and when people die daily? what the heck is the difference? God could have stopped it all....but he didnt. once again, your denial of sovereignty sickens me

Let me ask you something. Why would God kill off a bunch of sinners for doing what they can't help but do? They are lost, being a sinner is only natural. God knows this (Romans 8:7).

all men are evil, born in sin and are enemies of God. it doesnt matter where they live or what they do, they are deserving of punishment.
romans 14:23
ephesians 2:1-3
romans 3:23
I don't knwo what book you are reading, but the one I read says: the book i am reading is read in context. you'd be wise to learn that principle. otherwise, you could come up with a verse better than the one you posted, which was written by Peter to the church. not to the judaizers or "sinners"
And you tell me I don't understand the God of scripture . . . i think your blatant denial of sovereignty backs me up on that one

[ObiShawn]

then the devil must have sent the hurricane :rolleyes: since he controls the weather and all.I thought George W. Bush cause the hurricane . . . (This is meant as humor, I'm not claiming you ever said this, it's a stab at the Liberals if anything). What's wrong with believing that the hurricane was actually formed as a pure act of nature?

and nobody ever said that God was trying to kill every single person in new orleans. i never said that. so dont put words in my mouth to make your point. That's funny because I didn't say it either. So I'll ask you to extend the same courtesy.

jesus died for the sins of the church
see these verses
john 10:15, 17:6, 9, 19, 11:51-52
mark 10:45
matt 26:28
hebrews 9:28
ephesians 5:25-27
your argument, that jesus died for the sins of the whole world, so God wouldnt punish sins anymore directly contradicts every end times prophecy and directly contradicts the words and nature of God. So then, the verses like 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 we should just neglect? We should find a way to explain them away because they don't line up with Calvinism? I can't so that, sorry. I'm a dicsiple of Christ, not John Calvin.

Christ died to redeem sinners, not give sinners a free pass to sin at will without fear of condemnation. believers are the only ones who are to be without fear of condemnation because we are the ones that have received sonship I have maintained this in all of my post so far. Nowhere will you find that I have supported the idea that Christ died so that we could sin all we want and get away with it.


God is as vengeful as the old and new testament to be. God is not some buddy God that loves all. he hates the wicked. he hates sin. after judgment comes grace. You have no concept of grace. Do not not realize that is why Jesus died? The judgement came to Him first, then grace came to us afterwards.

Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. - Romans 5:18 The free gift came to all men, not to just the ones might be saved. To all men. The gift came to them, that doesn't mean they accepted or that the lost are automatically saved.

do people live forever? why is "killing off sinners" as you so eloquently put it any different than what happened in the book of Joshua, in the desert in Exodus, when the red sea was parted, and when people die daily? what the heck is the difference? How many times must I explain that we are under a new covenant? God is still the same God as in the Old Testament, but the difference is in Jesus. God took His anger out on Him. As I said previously, you have no concept of grace.

all men are evil, born in sin and are enemies of God. it doesnt matter where they live or what they do, they are deserving of punishment.
romans 14:23
ephesians 2:1-3
romans 3:23I've never denied this. But again we come back to the point of Jesus dying in our place, something you just can't seem to wrap your head around. We did and still do deserve death, and even worse. But Jesus took our pain. He took our place. "The chastisement for our peace was on Him." - (Isaiah 53:5)

the book i am reading is read in context. you'd be wise to learn that principle. otherwise, you could come up with a verse better than the one you posted, which was written by Peter to the church. not to the judaizers or "sinners"True, the book was addressed to believers, but that doesn't disallow the truth that Peter presented. And this is not out of context, this is what it says: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should parish but that all should come to repentance."

Not willing that ANY should parish, not just those that might eventually get saved, not just those that Peter had writen to.

your denial of sovereignty is disturbing . . ., your denial of sovereignty sickens me . . ., i think your blatant denial of sovereignty backs me up on that one
But let's not confuse the sovereignty of God with the judgement of God. I said it before, and I'll say it until the day I die. God's judgment was poured out on Christ so that it wouldn't have to be poured out on us. That is the proof of God's sovereignty.

[Gandalf]

From a logical argument perspective you might have a case had the hurricane only hit New Orleans, but it didn't. If you say God allowed the hurricane to hit New Orleans because it was "evil", why then did it destroy so much "non-evil" all along the Gulf Coast?
The dozens of casinos in Biloxi and Gulfport are hardly a stellar example of moral excellence.
and to answer your question in the word forum about "why would someone believe that God would punish a city and then christians go send aid"

that isnt a contradiction.

...

God is a god of justice. God hates sin. God is a God of righteous judgement. but he's also a God that is actively pursuing his church. he's also a God of compassion. and after his righteous judgement was poured out, he's equipped his church with the means to reach out and show grace to all those that survived. why? because in times of turmoil and struggle, trials and tribulations, people are humbled and are reaching out for something to save them. the harvest is white in the gulf now
That just deserved to be quoted/reiterated - well stated.
God is as vengeful as the old and new testament to be. God is not some buddy God that loves all. he hates the wicked. he hates sin. after judgment comes grace.
I will point out one flaw in your wording here - God does love all; He says as much in Scripture. He also hates sin and righteously judges it. His love for all men and judgement of sin are not contradictory, if you "fundamentally understand the God of scripture" :)

We cannot entirely judge why God brought this hurricane - His motivations are beyond our ability to fully comprehend. But, we can see that He is sovereign, and has shown us a past pattern of judging unrighteousness in such manners. Historically, the punishment of God on nations or peoples as groups (rather than on individuals) often comes through natural disasters or war. It's not unreasonable to speculate that a part of the reason for this disaster occuring where it did is the justice of God. At the same time, we know that our part is to have compassion on people, and show them God's love. When they're naked and hungry, we should clothe and feed them, not just tell them to be warm and be fed!

[Gandalf]

I thought George W. Bush cause the hurricane . . . (This is meant as humor, I'm not claiming you ever said this, it's a stab at the Liberals if anything). What's wrong with believing that the hurricane was actually formed as a pure act of nature?
Saying that there's such a thing as "a pure act of nature" is saying that nature is beyond (and therefore superior to) God, rather than purely derivative. Nature is created, and God created it. Any natural event occurs because of the rules that God made to govern nature, and the past events He set in motion, even if it doesn't necessitate His direct interference at the point in time it occurs. That is, even if it's not miraculous in the sense that when it occured, God intervened to make it so, it still occurs because of something God did at some point in time, with the knowledge that this would be the consequence. Nothing He does is accidental, and He fully knows the consequences of it all. And, He's not restricted by time as we are, so if He intends for something to happen, He may just as easily cause it by arranging the air currents months, years, or centuries ago as by directly intervening the moment we see it occurring.

[larryl]

Saying that there's such a thing as "a pure act of nature" is saying that nature is beyond (and therefore superior to) God, rather than purely derivative. Nature is created, and God created it. Any natural event occurs because of the rules that God made to govern nature, and the past events He set in motion, even if it doesn't necessitate His direct interference at the point in time it occurs. That is, even if it's not miraculous in the sense that when it occured, God intervened to make it so, it still occurs because of something God did at some point in time, with the knowledge that this would be the consequence. Nothing He does is accidental, and He fully knows the consequences of it all. And, He's not restricted by time as we are, so if He intends for something to happen, He may just as easily cause it by arranging the air currents months, years, or centuries ago as by directly intervening the moment we see it occurring.


while i agree, there is a difference between knowing it will happen, and directly causing it to happen right now.......

to take your post to it's natural conclusion, God "makes" everything happen...just as he is now "making" me type this.....

[Gandalf]

while i agree, there is a difference between knowing it will happen, and directly causing it to happen right now.......

to take your post to it's natural conclusion, God "makes" everything happen...just as he is now "making" me type this.....
"Nature" doesn't have free will; that's something God has only given to man. Everything that happens must necessarily be the result of an act of will, either ours or God's. While our actions do influence the weather in an unintentional way, since we cause changes in the motion of the air even by breathing (the "butterfly effect"), God has the ability to directly control the weather and we do not. You could say the hurricane was partially due to some horse sneezing in the Middle East three years ago, but that's not the ultimate cause. Since the weather cannot decide its own destiny, we must attribute it to God, who is the only One with the ability to intentionally effect change in the weather.

[ObiShawn]

Saying that there's such a thing as "a pure act of nature" is saying that nature is beyond (and therefore superior to) God, rather than purely derivative. I disagree because of what you had to say right after that:
Nature is created, and God created it. Any natural event occurs because of the rules that God made to govern nature, and the past events He set in motion, even if it doesn't necessitate His direct interference at the point in time it occurs.

That is, even if it's not miraculous in the sense that when it occured, God intervened to make it so, it still occurs because of something God did at some point in time, with the knowledge that this would be the consequence. Nothing He does is accidental, and He fully knows the consequences of it all. And, He's not restricted by time as we are, so if He intends for something to happen, He may just as easily cause it by arranging the air currents months, years, or centuries ago as by directly intervening the moment we see it occurring.

I do not beleive that nature is out of God's hands, but I also don't beleive He predetermined for every occurence of nature to happen. I beleive he set the earth in motion and things happen "because of the rules that God made to govern nature." Just because something happens doesn't mean he planned it. But just because He didn't plan also doesn't mean He didn't know it was going to happen.

He knew way back in eternity past that my mother was going to be molested as a child, but that doesn't mean He planned it. You make it sound as if we are all robots (including the weather). We have no choice in the actions we take and the words we say.

[larryl]

"Nature" doesn't have free will; that's something God has only given to man. Everything that happens must necessarily be the result of an act of will, either ours or God's. While our actions do influence the weather in an unintentional way, since we cause changes in the motion of the air even by breathing (the "butterfly effect"), God has the ability to directly control the weather and we do not. You could say the hurricane was partially due to some horse sneezing in the Middle East three years ago, but that's not the ultimate cause. Since the weather cannot decide its own destiny, we must attribute it to God, who is the only One with the ability to intentionally effect change in the weather.


i see your point, and maybe my example is not perfect.....

so in your way of thinking, every time it rains, each time the wind blows, each time lightning strikes, it is carefully.....choreograph ed, for lack of a better word, by God?

[bridges]

From a logical argument perspective you might have a case had the hurricane only hit New Orleans, but it didn't. If you say God allowed the hurricane to hit New Orleans because it was "evil", why then did it destroy so much "non-evil" all along the Gulf Coast?

Hurricanes, and other disasters - natural or man-made, happen because we live in a fallen world. Disaster falls on good and bad alike - the bad often bring more upon themselves through the natural consequences of their behavior. Otherwise we're just left with the 'health-wealth' and similar philosophies.

From Lake Charles to Venice (including Lafayette, Bayou Vista, Empire, and Buras), and my mother's maiden name was Laurent, so if you're talkin' to me your barkin' up the wrong tree. If you never partied with the best in South Louisiana, you don't know; and if you can't see that the people who got hit the hardest in New Orleans were the street people (many of whom are drug dealers, cross dressers, prostitutes, addicts, perverts, thieves, and whetever else), then you don't see much. And if you didn't read my post about the righteous suffering with the wicked, then you're answering me without hearing me first. And if you don't think New Orleans was a wicked place; well, just go on down there next Fat Tuesday and hang out on the street. I have no doubt they'll get it all back up and going by then. The bars reopened on Monday afternoon right after the storm passed through, instead of worrying about the integrity of the levees, it was "how quick can we restart the party?"

[bridges]

There are so many posting so quickly that several posted while I was answering one, and it happened so quick that an old guy like me can't even remember whom I was talking to. God bless y'all anyway. :)

[larryl]

From Lake Charles to Venice (including Lafayette, Bayou Vista, Empire, and Buras), and my mother's maiden name was Laurent, so if you're talkin' to me your barkin' up the wrong tree. If you never partied with the best in South Louisiana, you don't know; and if you can't see that the people who got hit the hardest in New Orleans were the street people (many of whom are drug dealers, cross dressers, prostitutes, addicts, perverts, thieves, and whetever else), then you don't see much. And if you didn't read my post about the righteous suffering with the wicked, then you're answering me without hearing me first. And if you don't think New Orleans was a wicked place; well, just go on down there next Fat Tuesday and hang out on the street. I have no doubt they'll get it all back up and going by then. The bars reopened on Monday afternoon right after the storm passed through, instead of worrying about the integrity of the levees, it was "how quick can we restart the party?"

yes.....but there are just as many cities that are just as bad......why new orleans? heck....why not the whole country?

[Gandalf]

He knew way back in eternity past that my mother was going to be molested as a child, but that doesn't mean He planned it. You make it sound as if we are all robots (including the weather). We have no choice in the actions we take and the words we say.
Not at all - man has free will. "Nature" does not.
i see your point, and maybe my example is not perfect.....

so in your way of thinking, every time it rains, each time the wind blows, each time lightning strikes, it is carefully.....choreograph ed, for lack of a better word, by God?
Yes... though certainly not all events have equal importance. Nothing is truly random, or without a specific cause (even modern physics shows us this on some scales - look into chaos theory & nonlinear dynamics - directly applicable to weather), but the only importance of some events (such as a raindrop falling in just such a way into a puddle and changing a minute air current) may be in the causal effect they have on other events (such as a drought in one region, or a hurricane in another).

[ObiShawn]

yes.....but there are just as many cities that are just as bad......why new orleans? heck....why not the whole country?Exactly. The following is a post I made in a similar topic in the Word Forum:

New Orleans was "sin city" by the way.when u think of New Orleans u think of mardi gras... and girls gone wild. mardi gras has become the most sinful day of the year down there....Just because one city, event, or group of people acting foolish gets pubicity doesn't mean it is more sinful than anywhere else, it just has more publicity.

And you want to bring up Girls Gone Wild . . . New Orleans isn't the only place that those DVDs are made. All of the major spring break hang outs are prime locations (South Texas and Florida beaches to be specific). Girls Gone Wild may be filmed in these locations, but they are sold to pervets all over the world. That doesn't make New Orleans or the spring break locations the centers of evil, its just proof that the same evil is all over the earth.

As for mardi gras, there are marti gras festivals in other places than New Orleans. One is held every year in a city not 20 miles from where I live.

How come God doesn't wipe out all the cities that have gay pride parades or that condone gay marriages?

How come God doesn't wipe out the marijuana fields in South America or even hit the meth labs here in the States with a bolt of lightning?

Why doesn't God just go ahead and taget the prisons with an earthquake or even a deadly virus? All of the "sinners" are there in one location, it would be easy to do.

We can't afford to be that naive.

But let's not confuse the sovereignty of God with the judgement of God. Amen.

[ObiShawn]

Not at all - man has free will. "Nature" does not.

You are right.

[Howlin' Wolf]

So then, the verses like 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 we should just neglect? We should find a way to explain them away because they don't line up with Calvinism? I can't so that, sorry. I'm a dicsiple of Christ, not John Calvin.
ad hominem. its nice to see you resort to that because you cant refute my position. claiming that i am not a disciple of christ is pure junk!
but to answer your question about 1 john 2:2 and john 3:16, neither of those verses support universal atonement.
i love how you dismiss the verses i posted by calling me a disciple of calvin. does that mean you read only what you want to read and ignore the verses that you are unable to isogete???



You have no concept of grace. Do not not realize that is why Jesus died? The judgement came to Him first, then grace came to us afterwards.

How many times must I explain that we are under a new covenant? God is still the same God as in the Old Testament, but the difference is in Jesus. God took His anger out on Him. As I said previously, you have no concept of grace.
so let me get this straight. because i believe in absolute sovereignty, i have no concept of grace? last time i checked, i am not the one isogeting scripture to fit my worldview. as far as the new covenant, that applies to salvation, not to the way that God deals with the world in general.

True, the book was addressed to believers, but that doesn't disallow the truth that Peter presented. And this is not out of context, this is what it says: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should parish but that all should come to repentance."
so if christ doesnt want us to suffer, then why does suffering happen? you must be word of faith.



I said it before, and I'll say it until the day I die. God's judgment was poured out on Christ so that it wouldn't have to be poured out on us. That is the proof of God's sovereignty.

you just posted that God isnt in control of the weather. seriously....i dont even know what to make of what youve written

[larryl]

you know nothing of sovereignty. you just posted that God isnt in control of the weather. seriously....i dont even know what tomakeof the bulljive youve written


ahhh.....good ol' tulip, all riled up and in fighting form ;)

seriously........noone said said he isn't in control. (at least not that i saw) it's a matter of how much he chooses to influence it....i just don't see any scriptural basis to say God choreographs, or orchestrates, each and every storm on earth......

yes....he COULD choose to do that, but i don't think he does....


though i have given myself a funny mental image...of God, sitting in heaven....."let's see....rain in georgia today, hot in arizona, let's give kansas a little tornado......" :cool:

[Howlin' Wolf]

ahhh.....good ol' tulip, all riled up and in fighting form ;)

seriously........noone said said he isn't in control. (at least not that i saw) it's a matter of how much he chooses to influence it....i just don't see any scriptural basis to say God choreographs, or orchestrates, each and every storm on earth......

yes....he COULD choose to do that, but i don't think he does....


though i have given myself a funny mental image...of God, sitting in heaven....."let's see....rain in georgia today, hot in arizona, let's give kansas a little tornado......" :cool:

while you have a "funny"image of a hands on sovereign God, youve given me an image of a God that has created a self-sustaining world, sitting back with his hands behind his head,thinking, "oh crap! a hurricane! i wish i could stop it! what can i do?"

[larryl]

while you have a "funny"image of a hands on sovereign God, youve given me an image of a God that has created a self-sustaining world, sitting back with his hands behind his head,thinking, "oh crap! a hurricane! i wish i could stop it! what can i do?"

why do you have to be harsh? i am one of the few people here who often agrees with you, and says so, and actually misses you during those times when you are not here (banned)

i said He COULD affect weather, but sometimes chooses not too.....

that is a lot different from what you said....i have never even insinuated that He is unable to control weather, so don't put words in my mouth.

i can keep my daughter from doing things, but sometimes i don't. i can make her do things, but i don't always......inspite of that, i am still in control at home. if i decide to exert my power, things happen.

(probably an example someone will shoot full of holes soon, but it seems to work for right now
:D )

[Howlin' Wolf]

ahhh.....good ol' tulip, all riled up and in fighting form ;)

seriously........noone said said he isn't in control. (at least not that i saw) it's a matter of how much he chooses to influence it....i just don't see any scriptural basis to say God choreographs, or orchestrates, each and every storm on earth......

yes....he COULD choose to do that, but i don't think he does....


though i have given myself a funny mental image...of God, sitting in heaven....."let's see....rain in georgia today, hot in arizona, let's give kansas a little tornado......" :cool:

while you have a "funny"image of a hands on sovereign God, youve given me an image of a God that has created a self-sustaining world, sitting back with his hands behind his head,thinking, "oh crap! a hurricane! i wish i could stop it! what can i do?"

[larryl]

i like how when you can't refute a statement, you just repost an earlier post. very effective.

[larryl]

while you have a "funny"image of a hands on sovereign God, youve given me an image of a God that has created a self-sustaining world, sitting back with his hands behind his head,thinking, "oh crap! a hurricane! i wish i could stop it! what can i do?"

why do you have to be harsh? i am one of the few people here who often agrees with you, and says so, and actually misses you during those times when you are not here (banned)

i said He COULD affect weather, but sometimes chooses not too.....

that is a lot different from what you said....i have never even insinuated that He is unable to control weather, so don't put words in my mouth.

i can keep my daughter from doing things, but sometimes i don't. i can make her do things, but i don't always......inspite of that, i am still in control at home. if i decide to exert my power, things happen.

(probably an example someone will shoot full of holes soon, but it seems to work for right now
:D )

[Howlin' Wolf]

why do you have to be harsh? i am one of the few people here who often agrees with you, and says so, and actually misses you during those times when you are not here (banned)

i said He COULD affect weather, but sometimes chooses not too.....

that is a lot different from what you said....i have never even insinuated that He is unable to control weather, so don't put words in my mouth.

i can keep my daughter from doing things, but sometimes i don't. i can make her do things, but i don't always......inspite of that, i am still in control at home. if i decide to exert my power, things happen.

(probably an example someone will shoot full of holes soon, but it seems to work for right now
:D )

nature doesnt have a will....your daughter does

and my computer froze

[larryl]

nature doesnt have a will....your daughter does

true.....i knew someone would shoot it full of holes......let's see.......

i can turn on the sprinkler in my front yard.....it might flip over from the water pressure, it might sit upright all calm....it might flip over, right itself again....i can go out nd change or control it, but i may or may not choose to....

(the obvious difference being, i don't know ahead of time what exactly it will do, and God does, i DO have the power to go out and correct it......)

does that work better? i think you see my point anyway, you are just being your normal stubborn self....God COULD choose to directly affect every single action that happens in the world. i just don't think he does. and you have yet to show scripture saying otherwise.



and my computer froze

cool. my apologies on my rampant sarcasm then :D

[Howlin' Wolf]

true.....i knew someone would shoot it full of holes......let's see.......

i can turn on the sprinkler in my front yard.....it might flip over from the water pressure, it might sit upright all calm....it might flip over, right itself again....i can go out nd change or control it, but i may or may not choose to....

(the obvious difference being, i don't know ahead of time what exactly it will do, and God does, i DO have the power to go out and correct it......)

does that work better? i think you see my point anyway, you are just being your normal stubborn self....God COULD choose to directly affect every single action that happens in the world. i just don't think he does. and you have yet to show scripture saying otherwise.

so how do you reconcile any and all prophecies concerning natural disaster if God is hands off? why the is God only in control of weather and nature when it concerns him most?

[Gandalf]

does that work better? i think you see my point anyway, you are just being your normal stubborn self....God COULD choose to directly affect every single action that happens in the world. i just don't think he does. and you have yet to show scripture saying otherwise.
The problem there is that even just given a basic knowledge of modern physics or meteorology (without adding Scriptural evidence), we can show that events such as the weather are deterministic, not stochastic. That is, meteorological events consist of effects proceeding directly from causes, and are not random. Since we know that God is omniscient (from Scripture), He knows that the way in which He set things in order will inevitably cause specific weather patterns to occur. You could make an argument about whether it was His will for the hurricane to occur in the sense that it's a desirable end, or whether like the fall of man (though that was due to free will, so may not be the best analogy), it was an inevitable negative consequence of an end that is desirable and outweighs such side effects, but whichever motivation is ascribed to Him, He undoubtedly caused it.

[Howlin' Wolf]

as far as scripture goes, i dont see the point of posting it, since it willbe glossed over and chalked up to me worshipping john calvin, but here it goes

proverbs 16:4
job 28:1-28

[ObiShawn]

as far as scripture goes, i dont see the point of posting it, since it willbe glossed over and chalked up to me worshipping john calvin, but here it goes I was the one that made that comment, not larryl. Good job of directing you frustrations at the right people.

i love how you dismiss the verses i posted by calling me a disciple of calvin. does that mean you read only what you want to read and ignore the verses that you are unable to isogete??? You are obviously a disciple of Christ, you just completely missed my point. But I guess I’ll lay it out for you as plainly as I can, though I don’t know what good that’ll do.


jesus died for the sins of the church
see these verses
john 10:15, 17:6, 9, 19, 11:51-52
mark 10:45
matt 26:28
hebrews 9:28
ephesians 5:25-27


Matthew 26:28, “For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” “Many,” not the church.

Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” “Many,” not the church.

John 10:15, “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.”

I’m really glad you posted this verse in the manner that you did. Now we see who is really taking things out of context and twisting scripture to fit his beliefs. If you would have ever bothered to read the very next verse . . .

John 10:16, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one Shepherd.”

10:15 refers to the Jews, and verse 16 refers to the gentiles.

John 11:51-52, “Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
52 “and not for the nation only, but also that he would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.”

I hate to break it to you, but this is referring to the nation of Israel, the Jews, not the church. A little history lesson for you: This was during the reign of the Roman Empire. Jews had traveled to all parts of the Empire, hence the phrase “scattered abroad.”

Ephesians 5:26-27, “that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.”

These verses aren’t dealing with the salvation of people, but sanctification of the church. Way to take another passage out of context! Big thumbs up! If this was dealing with the salvation of souls, Paul wouldn’t have used the analogy of an already married couple.

Hebrews 9:28, “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

“Many,” not the church.

The point:

You view the world through Calvinism, which I disagree with on 4 of the points. (The only point I agree on would be perseverance of the saints.) The verses you gave were all out of context or even twisted to say what you needed it to say. ad hominem? You better believe it.

as far as the new covenant, that applies to salvation, not to the way that God deals with the world in general. As I said, you have no concept of what true grace is. You cannot separate the way God deals with the world and salvation. That is the way He deals with the world. He has offered them the same gift He has given you and me. Jesus died for them just like He died for us. Jesus suffered the wrath of God so that we wouldn’t have to.

Isaiah53:5, “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him.”
Isaiah 53:6 “The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

Romans 5:18, “Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

And this is not out of context, this is what it says: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should parish but that all should come to repentance."
so if christ doesnt want us to suffer, then why does suffering happen? you must be word of faith.

There you go again twisting scripture to fit your argument. The verse is right there before your eyes and it clearly says that God isn’t willing that any should parish. Then you go off and say, “so if christ doesnt want us to suffer, then why does suffering happen?” Parish, suffer . . . two totally different words. Jesus Himself that in this world we would have trouble, but to take heart because he has overcome the world.

you know nothing of sovereignty. you just posted that God isnt in control of the weather I guess you missed the part where I conceded to Gandalf. I believe very much like larryl, God can control the weather, but that doesn’t mean He does every time something unfortunate happens.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I was the one that made that comment, not larryl. Good job of directing you frustrations at the right people.

i guess you read the bible the same way you read these boards. only seeing what you want to see.
God COULD choose to directly affect every single action that happens in the world. i just don't think he does. and you have yet to show scripture saying otherwise.



the verses arent taken out of context either. you said that jesus died for the whole world. i showed you that he died for many and before he did that, he only prayed for those that would believe. you missed the boat completely, but youre arminian, so thats expected.

You view the world through Calvinism, which I disagree with on 4 of the points. (The only point I agree on would be perseverance of the saints.) The verses you gave were all out of context or even twisted to say what you needed it to say. ad hominem? You better believe it
so you disagree with 4 points. which means that you believe that man can save himself and commit righteous acts. heresy. that God plays no role in salvation. heresy. that christ died for every single human being. refuted with the verses i posted. that man can deny God's will and impose his own over God's. heresy. which is exactly what the synod of dort decreed about arminianism.

As I said, you have no concept of what true grace is. You cannot separate the way God deals with the world and salvation. That is the way He deals with the world. He has offered them the same gift He has given you and me. Jesus died for them just like He died for us. Jesus suffered the wrath of God so that we wouldn’t have to.
jesus died for the sins of many. you bolded it. now you deny it. true ignorance. and to say that i have zero concept of grace is laughable, especially when you claim that man is capable of saving himself, which you did when you said you didnt buy total depravity.

isaiah was written to jews. romans was written to the church. not to every single person

There you go again twisting scripture to fit your argument. The verse is right there before your eyes and it clearly says that God isn’t willing that any should parish. Then you go off and say, “so if christ doesnt want us to suffer, then why does suffering happen?” Parish, suffer . . . two totally different words. Jesus Himself that in this world we would have trouble, but to take heart because he has overcome the world
so if God is willing that none should perish, then why do people perish? are you open theist?

[ObiShawn]

i guess you read the bible the same way you read these boards. only seeing what you want to see.Your last 5 posts were spent in a discussion with larryl. Larrl didn't make the "calvinist" comment, I did. Then you show up providing scritpures to support your side of the discussion you were having with larryl and say, "as far as scripture goes, i dont see the point of posting it, since it willbe glossed over and chalked up to me worshipping john calvin, but here it goes."

That's what I read, that's what I saw. Explain to me how I read/saw only what I wanted.

the verses arent taken out of context either. you said that jesus died for the whole world. i showed you that he died for many and before he did that, he only prayed for those that would believe. you missed the boat completely, but youre arminian, so thats expected.First of all, you said that Jesus died for "the church," you didn't say "many." You didn't say many until I pointed it out in scripture.

Second, just because I don't agree with Calvinism doesn't automatically make me Arminian. I don't know enough about Arminianism to make any comments about it. I do have a book on Calvinism called "Tulip: The Five Points of Calvinism in the Light of Scripture" by Duane Edward Spencer, and from what I've read the Calvinistic view blows things out of porportion. But that's a discussion for another topic.

so you disagree with 4 points. which means that you believe that man can save himself and commit righteous acts. heresy. that God plays no role in salvation. heresy. that christ died for every single human being. refuted with the verses i posted. that man can deny God's will and impose his own over God's. heresy. which is exactly what the synod of dort decreed about arminianism. As I said, I beleive that the Calvinistic view blows things out of porportion. And like I said, that's a discussion for another topic.

jesus died for the sins of many. you bolded it. now you deny it. true ignorance. and to say that i have zero concept of grace is laughable, especially when you claim that man is capable of saving himself, which you did when you said you didnt buy total depravity.You are taking the word "many" to mean "only a few." The Word doesn't say that. Also, I do not beleive man is capable of saving himself, but I do beleive he has free will. God has offered us all the gift of salvation, we have the option to accept it or reject it.

isaiah was written to jews. romans was written to the church. not to every single person Whoopty-freakin-doo. That doesn't mean that the truths written in the books aren't applicable. If you want to take that kind of mentality, we might as well throw out the entire bible.


so if God is willing that none should perish, then why do people perish? And once again we find ourselves back to the original point of this topic.

are you open theist?From what I've read of your post, you don't care about truth, you just like to argue. This quote proves it. I'm through with you. Counter my points all you want. It doesn't matter what is said, if a person doesn't agree with you 100%, you are going to be contentious. You can't just disagree with some one, you have to make it epic. And to prove my point, you won't stop and consider that I might be right. You'll go on some tirade about how I'm stupid and yadda, yadda, yadda. I may be wrong, but you won't even consider it.

[Howlin' Wolf]

From what I've read of your post, you don't care about truth, you just like to argue. This quote proves it. I'm through with you. Counter my points all you want. It doesn't matter what is said, if a person doesn't agree with you 100%, you are going to be contentious. You can't just disagree with some one, you have to make it epic. And to prove my point, you won't stop and consider that I might be right. You'll go on some tirade about how I'm stupid and yadda, yadda, yadda. I may be wrong, but you won't even consider it.

if i recall, you were the one that turned this into a calvinist debate with yourmockery of sovereignty and of me. so hello pot, this is kettle

"i read a book by duane edward spencer and he said calvinism is twisting scripture and even though i believe that jesus died for every single human, scripture says he died for many, not all. but i dont like that because it makes me uncomfortable, so i will stay in ignorance and interpret the bible from my own pre-suppositions. by no means will i read Piper or Edwards or any of the reformers to see what calvinism actually teaches."


ignoarance breeds more ignorance

[kiwisongbird]

and people will know that we are Christians by our love

by the love we have for one another

God is sad when the wicked perish

preach Christ and Him crucified

I know I'm a heart person not a head person so that's the main reason why I can't understand what you are all going on about, and I can't tell you where all the scriptures are that I've just 'quoted' - you guys probably can, the one about God being sad when the wicked perish is in Ezekiel...

I know as a confirmed non-theologian that I prolly get many texts out of context, but God is a god of love, He sent His Son to die for everyone on the cross and doesn't want anyone to perish (I know there's all that pre-destination stuff - but man! that is one I will happily find out the answer to when I meet Jesus face to face) ....He is going to come back again for His church and He wants as many people as possible to be part of that....:)

I read what you guys write to each other sometimes and know that you get some sort of satisfaction writing it, you must or you wouldn't write it I guess...but... do you really think that you are helping each other understand stuff? :confused: it just majorly confuses me....

Again I ask that you take what I say in love - I don't mind if you think I'm a screwball, I just need to say this..... I'd love to meet you all face to face one day and know that I will cos we are all family :) Weird eh? When we are all so very different....

Blessings,
from your ANZAC sister, Sharon :)

[larryl]

tulip.....apparently you have forgotten a couple of things about me....

first, i am not armenian, as i do not believe one can lose their salvation

second, i will not discuss our differences about predestination/free-will on this board


you took something i said, and responded with something totally off the topic i was speaking about. this thread is NOT about that old argument. it is about (at this point) whether we believe God purposely sends each bit of weather to a specific spot, or if some of it is just His creation, acting in the way He made it.

Gandalf.......i certainly see your point, about physics and what not....my point is, while there is certainly cause and effect in weather, it could be earth just acting according to the laws (of phsyics, of nature, etc) set in place by God at creation, and not neccesarily by His specific direction every second of every day. just as if you wrote a piece of software, and placed on it certain rules. you could choose to let it run, and those rules govern how it did so, or choose to influence it directly.

[jrmitch]

Middletree - nothing personal in the following comments directed at you, alright? :)

Okay......I'll admit there's limited merit to the welfare angle, but there's also one glaring error that causes me to question the accuracy of the rest of Tracinski's logic.

Here's the mistake:
Then the "crawl"......gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects........A little math is in order here. Supposedly 75% of the people were gone, leaving about 300,000 - right? Wrong! According to the 2000 census the population of New Orleans is only 484,674. If 75% of them were supposedly gone at the time of the hurricane, how does that leave over 300,000 still there?!

Now, I don't mean to sound like the semantics police. But here's my point: if Tracinski is this careless with known figures, how can I trust him to be more careful with any of the rest of his reasoning? Sure, he brings up some valid issues. But right now there are still thousands of bodies floating in empty houses.......months of grisly cleanup and rebuilding......and hundreds of thousands who have had their entire past and future uprooted and destroyed. There's also comparable devastation in Biloxi, Gulfport, and numerous other communities that don't have the large percentage of welfare receipients that New Orleans does. My initial response is that this article smacks of one who saw an opportunity to use one of the largest humanitarian crises this country has ever seen as a forum to trot out his personal pet peeves without contributing anything worthwhile towards focusing attention on helping those whose lives have been shattered. :mad:

[tristen]

Please take no offense to my comment...I am just tired of people saying "they should have gotten out before..." "They deserve it..."etc. The fact of the matter is that it happened, we shouldn't be arguing over the details before the fact...there are thousands of people now that need our help and woulda-shoulda comments are pointless. I know you didn't want this to happen, I just didn't know where else to put this thread... In times like these we need to deal with the facts at hand, and those are that human beings are without food,water,homes...basic necessities. I just wish people would ban together to help our fellow Americans instead of bashing what the refugees have done, what the relief workers have failed to do...etc. Just my thoughts..as I know all of us on here have done what we could do to help. God Bless all of you..

[Pouye]

Please take no offense to my comment...I am just tired of people saying "they should have gotten out before..." "They deserve it..."etc. The fact of the matter is that it happened, we shouldn't be arguing over the details before the fact...there are thousands of people now that need our help and woulda-shoulda comments are pointless. I know you didn't want this to happen, I just didn't know where else to put this thread... In times like these we need to deal with the facts at hand, and those are that human beings are without food,water,homes...basic necessities. I just wish people would ban together to help our fellow Americans instead of bashing what the refugees have done, what the relief workers have failed to do...etc. Just my thoughts..as I know all of us on here have done what we could do to help. God Bless all of you..

Whenever this kind of thing happens, there are always a bunch of people who jump on the "blame" bandwagon. It is a typical, human nature response to grief and tragedy. First there is shock/denial, then there is anger/blaming, then there comes acceptance and action. We are not all powerfull or all knowing in the USA... so everyone needs to find out how they can help instead of pointing fingers.

Great points, tristen!

Rock

[jrmitch]

Please take no offense to my comment...I am just tired of people saying "they should have gotten out before..." "They deserve it..."etc. The fact of the matter is that it happened, we shouldn't be arguing over the details before the fact...there are thousands of people now that need our help and woulda-shoulda comments are pointless. I know you didn't want this to happen, I just didn't know where else to put this thread... In times like these we need to deal with the facts at hand, and those are that human beings are without food,water,homes...basic necessities. I just wish people would ban together to help our fellow Americans instead of bashing what the refugees have done, what the relief workers have failed to do...etc. Just my thoughts..as I know all of us on here have done what we could do to help. God Bless all of you..
Very well said! Definitely words of wisdom.

Uh -oh - I just violated the unwritten rule here in Colorado that we should never say something nice about someone from Nebraska. I may be in big trouble....... :D ;)

[tristen]

Very well said! Definitely words of wisdom.

Uh -oh - I just violated the unwritten rule here in Colorado that we should never say something nice about someone from Nebraska. I may be in big trouble....... :D ;)
\
Hey now! We aren't so bad here in ole Nebraska....I thank you very much! Of course, our Huskers are not so good this year...it's all in fun! :D

[ICarlson99]

Middletree - nothing personal in the following comments directed at you, alright? :)

Okay......I'll admit there's limited merit to the welfare angle, but there's also one glaring error that causes me to question the accuracy of the rest of Tracinski's logic.

Here's the mistake:
A little math is in order here. Supposedly 75% of the people were gone, leaving about 300,000 - right? Wrong! According to the 2000 census the population of New Orleans is only 484,674. If 75% of them were supposedly gone at the time of the hurricane, how does that leave over 300,000 still there?!

Now, I don't mean to sound like the semantics police. But here's my point: if Tracinski is this careless with known figures, how can I trust him to be more careful with any of the rest of his reasoning? Sure, he brings up some valid issues. But right now there are still thousands of bodies floating in empty houses.......months of grisly cleanup and rebuilding......and hundreds of thousands who have had their entire past and future uprooted and destroyed. There's also comparable devastation in Biloxi, Gulfport, and numerous other communities that don't have the large percentage of welfare receipients that New Orleans does. My initial response is that this article smacks of one who saw an opportunity to use one of the largest humanitarian crises this country has ever seen as a forum to trot out his personal pet peeves without contributing anything worthwhile towards focusing attention on helping those whose lives have been shattered. :mad:

Some census numbers refer only to the city limits - other numbers list the city as well as the immediate suburbs. It could be that the author, when using 75% was using the "New Orleans and surrounding area" population - but the majority of those left behind were mostly from the city itself. Just thought.

As to the larger point - it's not a coincidence that welfare state proponents that have led cities for decades (i.e. New Orleans) only get worse and worse. The demographics of Houston are not much different than New Orleans, except the leadership has a much different outlook.

[Pouye]

Gandalf.......i certainly see your point, about physics and what not....my point is, while there is certainly cause and effect in weather, it could be earth just acting according to the laws (of phsyics, of nature, etc) set in place by God at creation, and not neccesarily by His specific direction every second of every day. just as if you wrote a piece of software, and placed on it certain rules. you could choose to let it run, and those rules govern how it did so, or choose to influence it directly.

"He [Jesus] sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command."
Hebrews 1:3 (NLT)

"The Son... [is] sustaining all things by his powerful word."
(NIV)

"[Jesus is] upholding all things by the word of his power."
(KJV)

I think what we are dealing with, again, is the complexity of God's sovereignty, which we humans cannot fully comprehend. God wrote the software, He sustains the software, and the software runs under His sovereign will in a mysterious way that is hard for us to comprehend.

Like you, I do not believe God "sent" the hurricane in the sense that He was up in heaven the other day and decidede to cook it up and hurl it at the USA for the purpose of killing lots of people, both good and bad. Rather, I do believe God set things in motion and allows this fallen, broken earth to run off course and head towards disaster. In other words, I believe God voluntarily wrote the software and put a virus in it when it became corrupted by sin. This virus (the curse) is destroying the software, and God (who can enter in and change the course any time He so chooses in His eternal, sovereign wisdom) not only knows what is happening, but it is part of His mysterious "plan" (we do not know how God plans, but it is not in the way we plan things in our limited, linear, time-bound fashion).

In our finite minds, we have trouble making any distinctions about sovereignty. Human thinking entertains "the fact" that either God is a puppet master who just set everything (past, present, future) in cement, or He goes with the flow of what He started, fixing things here, curbing things there, being surprised by things here, making adjustments there... you get the picture.

There is a third option, but it is rarely discussed because it places things in a realm that is admittedly beyond our reasoning. It is admitting that because we do not fully understand the sovereignty of God, we can trust the Word of God to shed light on God's sovereignty, the will of humans and the movements of nature. We need to let the Word say what He wants to say regarding these things, and not pit verses against other clear verses which seem to stand in antinomy.

Antinomy: A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.

Rock

[ICarlson99]

From wikipedia:

The 2000 census put New Orleans's population at 484,674 and the population of Greater New Orleans at 1,337,726.

If 75% of the "greater New Orleans" population evacuated, that would leave 334,431. So the numbers cited may actually be correct.

[sirlok]

Interesting read. It breaks my heart to see all that has happened. I saw this article and just found it interesting. thats all.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46 178

[NotMyOwn]

There is no reason to believe that the USA support of Israel leaving Gaza having anything to do with a hurricane. If there was any revenge over the Israeli forced evacuation of Gaza, it would have been directed at Israel.

[larryl]

wow......thanks for that rock.

somehow you always seem to put stuff just right :D

[prayercloth sis]

Enjoyed your last post. Tremendous wording. I concur!!!

Please everyone continue to pray for the survivors, thousands are trying to get back to some type of normal living. I can't comprehend their loss!! I can only love and pray for them all!!! God Bless!!!

[DareDevil]

No offense intended, but why does anybody here listen to something what the guys from the Westboro Baptist Church say? They preach nothing but hate and probably the only thing what keeps them from burning homosexuals at a stake is the current law. Really, if I thought that THAT was what Christianity is about then I'd definetly NOT be a Christian now.

[jrmitch]

I truly don't believe He did. The question of whether or not the storm was Gods punishement has also been debated pretty thouroughly in the 'Word" section of the boards in a thread titled 'Why does God allow bad things to happen?'; I'd encourage y'all to check out that ongoing discussion.

The primary reason that I disagree is because for this to be Gods punishement would violate both scripture and Gods character. There are Jesus loving disciples throughout the entire gulf coast who were devastated; many also lost their lives. So it's fair to say that saved and heathen alike suffered equally from the storm.

And that's the core of the problem: we have no scriptural examples of the righteous being made to suffer with the wicked. However, there are several Old Testament accounts of Gods judgement upon a city where the righteous were spared punishment. So if this argument were true that directly contradicts how God has acted in the past.

We're also told in I Thessalonians 5 that God has not appointed us unto wrath. And in Romans 5:9 we're told that- "being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." If God used the hurricane as judgement, then that means that His character would have changed. Yet Malachai 3:6 tells us that His character doesn't change! So from my standpoint it's either Scripturally impossible for this to have been Gods judgement or all of scripture is now unreliable - in which case we're all in trouble! :eek: ;)

[NotMyOwn]

I agree. :D

[sirlok]

I did not intend for this tread to have a question answered. I was only pointing out an interesting article. Could the Lord have done this is another issue. Personally, I feel I could not say I was 100% sure whether God could, or would or didn't or couldn't. I can't see how one could be THAT sure when it comes to this. All I know that whatever happens my trust is in the Lord.
Like the rumers of a nuke in L.A. is heard about almost everyday...I must admit, it's a scary thought...actually, it's a lot more than scary, but I hear about it everyday almost...If something like that happened, and I pray with all my heart it never does, but if it did, well, many will probably come out and say for all the filth that comes out of Hollywood...Well, you know what I mean...All I know whatever happens, I put my trust in Him. I don't like standing in the middle of certain issues...I just can't put my finger on this one. I thank you for your thoughts though because it does help. Thanks.
Anyhow, I will save this comment for another Thread I suppose.
I will mention, the reason why I posted the title of this tread the way I did (with a question) was only to show the Title of the article I read. Nothing more.

[Howlin' Wolf]

The primary reason that I disagree is because for this to be Gods punishement would violate both scripture and Gods character. There are Jesus loving disciples throughout the entire gulf coast who were devastated; many also lost their lives. So it's fair to say that saved and heathen alike suffered equally from the storm.
suffering builds character. paul and the apostles most certainly suffered on a regular basis

We're also told in I Thessalonians 5 that God has not appointed us unto wrath. And in Romans 5:9 we're told that- "being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." If God used the hurricane as judgement, then that means that His character would have changed. Yet Malachai 3:6 tells us that His character doesn't change! So from my standpoint it's either Scripturally impossible for this to have been Gods judgement or all of scripture is now unreliable - in which case we're all in trouble!
the wrath you speak of refers to the wrath faced when one isnt justified by the blood of Christ. paul had a thorn that God woudnt remove. he was beaten, imprisoned, starved, was naked, and ship wrecked 3 times. now i know that you arent a health and wealth word of faith guy, so where were you going with your post?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Interesting read. It breaks my heart to see all that has happened. I saw this article and just found it interesting. thats all.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46 178

this article is crap. that is all.

[ICarlson99]

"He [Jesus] sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command."
Hebrews 1:3 (NLT)

"The Son... [is] sustaining all things by his powerful word."
(NIV)

"[Jesus is] upholding all things by the word of his power."
(KJV)

I think what we are dealing with, again, is the complexity of God's sovereignty, which we humans cannot fully comprehend. God wrote the software, He sustains the software, and the software runs under His sovereign will in a mysterious way that is hard for us to comprehend.

Like you, I do not believe God "sent" the hurricane in the sense that He was up in heaven the other day and decidede to cook it up and hurl it at the USA for the purpose of killing lots of people, both good and bad. Rather, I do believe God set things in motion and allows this fallen, broken earth to run off course and head towards disaster. In other words, I believe God voluntarily wrote the software and put a virus in it when it became corrupted by sin. This virus (the curse) is destroying the software, and God (who can enter in and change the course any time He so chooses in His eternal, sovereign wisdom) not only knows what is happening, but it is part of His mysterious "plan" (we do not know how God plans, but it is not in the way we plan things in our limited, linear, time-bound fashion).

In our finite minds, we have trouble making any distinctions about sovereignty. Human thinking entertains "the fact" that either God is a puppet master who just set everything (past, present, future) in cement, or He goes with the flow of what He started, fixing things here, curbing things there, being surprised by things here, making adjustments there... you get the picture.

There is a third option, but it is rarely discussed because it places things in a realm that is admittedly beyond our reasoning. It is admitting that because we do not fully understand the sovereignty of God, we can trust the Word of God to shed light on God's sovereignty, the will of humans and the movements of nature. We need to let the Word say what He wants to say regarding these things, and not pit verses against other clear verses which seem to stand in antinomy.

Antinomy: A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.

Rock

Word.

[jrmitch]

the wrath you speak of refers to the wrath faced when one isnt justified by the blood of Christ. paul had a thorn that God woudnt remove. he was beaten, imprisoned, starved, was naked, and ship wrecked 3 times. now i know that you arent a health and wealth word of faith guy, so where were you going with your post?Babbling, I guess...... :D

Actually, what I was trying to say was that judgement doesn't fit as the right term. That doesn't mean that God didn't allow this to happen or cause it, but in every case I can find in scripture where God destroyed a city as a form of punishment for their sin the righteous were spared.

Persecution, suffering, affliction, etc., are definitely part and parcel of the Christian life. but that's a completely different ball game from punishement for sinful behavior. It just doesn't fit Gods character that He would destroy a city for their sin and equally afflict those who love Jesus and those who don't - I can't find anything in scripture to support the concept. :confused:
I did not intend for this tread to have a question answered. I was only pointing out an interesting article. Could the Lord have done this is another issue. Personally, I feel I could not say I was 100% sure whether God could, or would or didn't or couldn't. I can't see how one could be THAT sure when it comes to this. All I know that whatever happens my trust is in the Lord.No offense intended :) It's just that when a hot topic gets thrown out we kinda become like sharks attracted to blood in the water and have to get our two cents worth in. I agree - my trust is in the Lord. Peace. ;)

[kiwisongbird]

I think it may have been a bit difficult for some of the people whose photos I have seen on the web to get out in time - quite a lot of them seemed to be really old and/or really poor - just an observation... anyway now is the time for God's people to do what they can to help and not keep on trying to figure it out - all we really need to figure out now is what can we do to be the hands of Christ for these people......

whatever happened to love??? :) :) :) :confused:

[Howlin' Wolf]

i have zero pity for the scum that is shooting at the rescue teams. zero.

[Mr.Elwood]

I'm still waiting for the reports of pillaging and raping from anywhere else other than New Orleans??? anyone have any? just to prove it not just "them" so to speak??

Please also note the defenders of the down-trodden are already blaming racism and white America for not solving this problem for them... er.. um.. there is really something screwy with that logic... but it's the talking points of the week right now..

[prayercloth sis]

Thank you for posting that info, I didn't have the specifics. God Bless you and God Bless Third Day and all that give of their time, monies and donations. We live in a great country. Thank you Lord.

Sincerely,

Rhonie

[Pouye]

why not give the proceeds of the sales to those in need?

You can pull your sneaker out of your mouth now... :p

Rock

[Pouye]

Please also note the defenders of the down-trodden are already blaming racism and white America for not solving this problem for them... er.. um.. there is really something screwy with that logic... but it's the talking points of the week right now..

But we owe them a living... and a darn good one, at that. Life sucks for them right now, so it must be the fault of racist white America and their glut of spending on selfish things other than safety and stronger levees!
*gag*
Makes me want to puke!

Rock

[ICarlson99]

But we owe them a living... and a darn good one, at that. Life sucks for them right now, so it must be the fault of racist white America and their glut of spending on selfish things other than safety and stronger levees!
*gag*
Makes me want to puke!

Rock

I wonder how many of these loud-mouths are actually taking in families. I guess they expect someone ELSE to do that. :rolleyes:

Heard a report that Louisiana actually received the largest amount of $$ for the Army Corps of Engineers (about $2 Billion) - all spent elsewhere. Also the Sierra Club had sued the Army Corps in '97 to PREVENT the rebuilding of the levees because of potential adverse affects on the wetlands :rolleyes: :mad:

Source: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/berlau200509080824.asp

At least the Greens can add flood victims to Africa malaria victims in their quest to make human life less important than the "environment".

[Ehud Elijah]

Many people who became trapped in New Orleans chose to remain there. Engineers, oceanographers, and FEMA had repeatedly warned that the levees could withstand only a category 3 hurricane. New Orleans had every evidence that Katrina could breach the levees. It's doubtful anyone can claim ignorance after many years of dodging this bullet. Remember, New Orleans is called "The Big Easy" for a reason, it's a way of thinking. Below is the smoking gun:

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
"As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness."
"The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane."
"The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed. ...
Evacuation procedures for small scale and localized evacuations are conducted per the SOPs of the New Orleans Fire Department and the New Orleans Police Department. However, due to the sheer size and number of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically directed long range planning and coordination of resources and responsibilities efforts must be undertaken."


I have a good friend who works with FEMA in disasters like this. He has said that even though Alabama and Mississippi were already prepared on a city and state level, the governors of both Mississippi and Alabama put in a formal request for federal assistance before Katrina even made landfall. New Orleans and Louisiana were unprepared on a local and state level. Furthermore, the governor of Louisiana refused to relinquish any of her power. Federal FEMA can only work with the state and local officials in organizing relief efforts such as food, water, and shelter, and can only take over when the state requests that they do so.
Governor Blanco herself has clearly stated that President Bush asked for a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans BEFORE the Hurricane hit landfall. On the Friday night before Katrina hit, the President sent Governor Blanco a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans. And finally, the National Guard is under the authority of State Government, not Federal, until asked – which is what Alabama and Mississippi did IMMEDIATELY.

Responding to the aftermath of the levee breaks is a governmental failure across the board. This is first a city, then a state, and finally a federal matter. City government was ill-prepared. The Mayor, whether Democrat or Republican I have no idea, seems intent on deflecting all blame. The Governor is responsible for National Guard, which were poorly positioned, as was state-controlled FEMA. The Superdome had little security and little food - a city and state problem. Alabama and Mississippi both had well-organized and executed cleanup and rescue plans which have gone off very well. Mississippi bore the brunt of Katrina, and yet we aren't seeing results of poor planning or leadership.

Also take into account the resources that were moving into eastern Louisiana and into Mississippi shortly after Katrina struck, and it was not until some time after the storm that the levees in New Orleans began to break. Was Bush slow to respond? I believe he should have responded sooner. Bureaucracy most likely takes the largest blame for the lethargy with which the federal government responded. The short answer to this problem is that there needs to be a restructuring to speed things up.

For some people to play the race card is believable - it's the only card they hold that keeps them in the spotlight. And for others to actually say or imply that response was slow due to race or class simply shows a lack of understanding of all issues involved.
The magnitude of this crisis was avoidable. It is not possible to respond to a crisis like this and keep everyone happy. Federal vs. State rights is a very big issue here. Furthermore, you ultimately only have 2 choices....declare martial law and remove everyone by force for their own good, or respect a person's choice and have adequate resources ready to respond if they are in need. Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act. However, this did not apply to the situation and would have been an abuse of power and authority. Once again, this is a city, then a state, and finally a federal issue.

Also, regarding improvement of the levees. No President, Republican or Democrat, was about to spend the estimated $20 billion to upgrade the levees on pure speculation that a category 4/5 hurricane might possibly hit New Orleans.
Was Federal response slow? Absolutely- a result of bureaucracy, not who maintains the office of President or Congress.
This country should do everything in its power to heal, provide for, and counsel the victims of Hurricane Katrina. Also, lets be honest about why the reasons for the tragic aftermath.

If anyone disagrees, please let me know. I’ll be happy to write it in crayon, or perhaps draw some nice pictures for you.

[ICarlson99]

Very well said - the Dems better be VERY careful how they play this one. The mayor and governor are going to look the worst when the preparation plans are evaluated.

As for the mayor, if you're not sure which party he belongs to - just look at his ranting quote where he said "Those two (the Pres and Gov) need to get together and figure this out". Ummm, mayor, it's YOUR city, what are YOU doing about it? Giuliani didn't take cover and complain through the media about what everyone else was going to do. The evacuation plan (which was posted on the city and state website) called for people to go to the Super Dome - so why were there no provisions pre-staged there? That's the MAYOR'S fault.

Had Bush forcibly taken control of the state like he technically could have and prevented the disaster - he would have been accused of grandstanding and violating states rights (because there wouldn't have been a huge disaster in the first place). And the governor would have been all ticked off about that.

Thankfully, most people are seeing through the garbage of the left - only 13% blame the president in the most recent CNN/USA Today poll - far more blame the governor and mayor.

FEMA also advises local authorities to be prepared for 48-72 hours of self-sufficiency before federal help will arrive. FEMA may have been slow to respond, and the director of FEMA may, deservedly so, be fired.

[MatthewHunt]

It seems to me that all of us have chosen sides on the issue of who is to blame. Right now is not the time for finger pointing and accusation. Now is the time for those who call ourselves Christian to stand up and make a sacrifice for those in need. By sacrifice I don't mean sending the $50 you would have spent on a movie and dinner to the Red Cross. By sacrifice I mean jumping in with both feet and helping, stepping out of where we feel comfotable and into the unknown for Christ. Forget your political bent or who you think is to blame and focus on how Christ would have you respond.
As for me I am heading south Saturday with tools packed ready to help in what ever way I can. Maybe we should all consider what God is calling us to do and not what our political leaders are calling us to do.

Matt

[ICarlson99]

It seems to me that all of us have chosen sides on the issue of who is to blame. Right now is not the time for finger pointing and accusation. Now is the time for those who call ourselves Christian to stand up and make a sacrifice for those in need. By sacrifice I don't mean sending the $50 you would have spent on a movie and dinner to the Red Cross. By sacrifice I mean jumping in with both feet and helping, stepping out of where we feel comfotable and into the unknown for Christ. Forget your political bent or who you think is to blame and focus on how Christ would have you respond.
As for me I am heading south Saturday with tools packed ready to help in what ever way I can. Maybe we should all consider what God is calling us to do and not what our political leaders are calling us to do.

Matt

Why can't we do both? Do you even know what any of us are or aren't doing - aside from maybe giving a "lousy" $50? What if God is calling us to better our society by figuring out what does and doesn't work?

If we offered to take people into our house (which we did), can we then discuss it? How about if we go to the local Red Cross and drop off our kids' baby clothes, some extra diapers, food, etc - then is it okay? If so, I'll bite my tongue until after this weekend, since our donation clearly wasn't sufficient.

Look, I don't know you from Adam, so I've no idea what your intention was, but that came across as completely self-righteous (at least to me). Not everyone has the flexibility you do of dropping everything and going down there. Some of us have to find ways to help out from off-site.

I look forward to your permission to further discuss the topic of government breakdowns (sarcasm)

Have a safe trip (not sarcasm) ;)

[Howlin' Wolf]

everybody appears self righteous to you

[Pouye]

Many people who became trapped in New Orleans chose to remain there. Engineers, oceanographers, and FEMA had repeatedly warned that the levees could withstand only a category 3 hurricane. New Orleans had every evidence that Katrina could breach the levees. It's doubtful anyone can claim ignorance after many years of dodging this bullet. Remember, New Orleans is called "The Big Easy" for a reason, it's a way of thinking. Below is the smoking gun....

REST OF POST BETWEEN HERE

....Also, regarding improvement of the levees. No President, Republican or Democrat, was about to spend the estimated $20 billion to upgrade the levees on pure speculation that a category 4/5 hurricane might possibly hit New Orleans.
Was Federal response slow? Absolutely- a result of bureaucracy, not who maintains the office of President or Congress.
This country should do everything in its power to heal, provide for, and counsel the victims of Hurricane Katrina. Also, lets be honest about why the reasons for the tragic aftermath.

If anyone disagrees, please let me know. I’ll be happy to write it in crayon, or perhaps draw some nice pictures for you.

I'm glad I'm on your side, Ehud... nice work!

Rock

[Ehud Elijah]

Like the great Jack Burton once said, "It's all in the reflexes."

[TX3DFan]

What people are getting across here, like Ehud and ICarlson, is not finger pointing, it's bringing the truth to light. We watch day after day as the media plays the blame game and let's the left wing kook talking heads place the blame squarely at the foot of George W Bush and FEMA. The truth isn't being reported anywhere other than conservative radio and media and Fox News.

The following link is an Op-Ed piece from the Wall Street Journal that explains the truth far better than I ever could:

Link (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219)

On top of that, there is news from the Red Cross that surfaced just last night that explains why there wasn't water,food and necessities at the Superdome when the people evacuated:

Gov. Kathleen Blanco's Bureaucrats Blocked Food and Water

The Red Cross was reportedly ready to deliver food, water and other supplies to flood-ravaged refugees who were sweltering inside New Orleans' Superdome last week - but the relief was blocked by bureaucrats who worked for Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco.

Fox News Channel's Major Garrett reported Wednesday that the Red Cross had "trucks with water, food, hygiene equipment, all sorts of things ready to go ... to the Superdome and Convention Center."

But the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security, Garrett said, "told them they could not go."

"The Red Cross tells me that Louisiana's Department of Homeland Security said, 'Look, we do not want to create a magnet for more people to come to the Superdome or Convention Center, we want to get them out,'" he explained.

"So at the same time local officials were screaming where is the food, where is the water, the Red Cross was standing by ready [and] the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security said you can't go."


This was reported on Fox News last night with Brit Hume because *gasp* :eek: someone actually called the Red Cross and asked them what happened. Imagine that! You won't see this reported anywhere else in the media however.

Call it finger pointing if you like, I call it the TRUTH.

[tigger72]

I would like to thank everyone for there spiritual, material, and financial assistance during this time of trials for Mississippians, Louisianans, and Alabamans. We were hit hard in Mississippi, contrary to the news, and we are struggling to help those who are worse off then we. Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers.

For those who have never been to Mississippi or met a Mississippian, please know that we are a unique bred of people. Blaming people will not get the job at hand accomplished, and we know that, thus we wish people would channel their blaming in to helping everyone effected by blessed Katrina, and we wish you'd pass this message along.

As my father - a pastor - always says, Christ rides on the winds, and He is in control, contrary to what people may think at this point. With His grace and mercy, we will prevail, and come out victorious over this storm.

In Christ,
Melissa

[TX3DFan]

It seems to me that all of us have chosen sides on the issue of who is to blame. Right now is not the time for finger pointing and accusation. Now is the time for those who call ourselves Christian to stand up and make a sacrifice for those in need. By sacrifice I don't mean sending the $50 you would have spent on a movie and dinner to the Red Cross. By sacrifice I mean jumping in with both feet and helping, stepping out of where we feel comfotable and into the unknown for Christ. Forget your political bent or who you think is to blame and focus on how Christ would have you respond.
As for me I am heading south Saturday with tools packed ready to help in what ever way I can. Maybe we should all consider what God is calling us to do and not what our political leaders are calling us to do.

Matt


I have the distinct pleasure to live in the great city of Houston, Texas where the relief effort is more in the forefront of my daily life than most in the rest of the US, just because it's right here in our face. My pastor has tasked our congregation with single-handedly feeding the folks at Reliant City (as we call it here in Houston during this relief effort) for the next month. My wife and I are also spending time this weekend helping with the FEMA effort in distributing these $2000 credit cards that you've all heard about. We're also helping our neighbor out in any way we can as they have 4 families currently staying with them.

I say these things, not to beat my chest or make myself sound great, but to say that God is truly doing miraculous work here in the greater Houston area.

With that being said, I will not stand idly by and let my President's good name and position be dragged through the mud just so that the left-wing kooks' plan of destroying Bush can be brought to fruition through the mainstream media. When I see the way they are trying to blame Bush for this and call him a racist and that he hates blacks, it disgusts me. In the face of all this filth being slung at him, I will stand strong and let the truth be known about what really happened in this disaster and what caused the failure of response.

[baker12]

Welcome to the board Melissa. I have two friends who live in Gulf Port. My wife, kids, and I drove down to visit them in 2004 (right before Mardi Gras). We drove through Hattiesburg to get to them, and then through Poplarville to get to Bogalusa for the MCCA parade. I love the Gulf Coast! My friends left Gulf Port early on Sunday before the storm came in, and returned this week. Their house is 1 1/2 miles from the beach, and was spared, thank God.

[ICarlson99]

TX3DFan - thanks for that post about the Red Cross being kept out of New Orleans. Apparently the same happened to the Salvation Army. Shameful.

I also read a report elsewhere that said the 3 levees that broke were all considered "completed projects" - I believe it was in the Washington Post, but I couldn't find it (I don't like citing anonymous sources :p )

And God Bless You for what you're doing there in Texas.

[mercyGurl]

I thought these were interesting cartoons--all in the USA Today from....today;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/mercyGurl/bilde2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/mercyGurl/bilde.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/mercyGurl/19372660.gif

[ICarlson99]

That picture with the school buses just sitting there is every bit as depressing as anything else coming out of New Orleans. In the immortal words of Metallica, "Sad, but True".

[jrmitch]

That picture with the school buses just sitting there is every bit as depressing as anything else coming out of New Orleans. In the immortal words of Metallica, "Sad, but True".On a related note, anyone see the interview on CNN the other night with the 3 students from Duke who decided to drive to New Orleans and see what they could do to help?

For those unfamiliar w/the story they forged press passes, were able to use those to get by the National Guard, and literally drove to the steps of the convention center where they took about a half dozen people up to shelters in Baton Rouge. The also took photographs showing them in front of and in the convention center, including shots with some of those whom they helped get out.

Now, I'm not sure of their motive, whether it was truly to help (which they claim) of just a publicity stunt. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt for just a sec. If they're on the money, how on earth were they able to get in when others were claiming they couldn't? And why did they pass over 150 empty buses on their way into New Orleans without seeing a single bus full of people?

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. And yes, the focus right now should be on helping those afflicted and we should save the blame game for later. But at some point in the future it's crucial they figure out what happened. People died as a result of the delays in receiving food and water........and there were at least two infants that died from dehydration at the Convention Center. Whether it be local officials, state officials, or Federal officials, there's blood on someone's hands - and if they don't figure out what went wrong it's highly likely to happen again. :(

[ICarlson99]

On a related note, anyone see the interview on CNN the other night with the 3 students from Duke who decided to drive to New Orleans and see what they could do to help?

For those unfamiliar w/the story they forged press passes, were able to use those to get by the National Guard, and literally drove to the steps of the convention center where they took about a half dozen people up to shelters in Baton Rouge. The also took photographs showing them in front of and in the convention center, including shots with some of those whom they helped get out.

Now, I'm not sure of their motive, whether it was truly to help (which they claim) of just a publicity stunt. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt for just a sec. If they're on the money, how on earth were they able to get in when others were claiming they couldn't? And why did they pass over 150 empty buses on their way into New Orleans without seeing a single bus full of people?

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. And yes, the focus right now should be on helping those afflicted and we should save the blame game for later. But at some point in the future it's crucial they figure out what happened. People died as a result of the delays in receiving food and water........and there were at least two infants that died from dehydration at the Convention Center. Whether it be local officials, state officials, or Federal officials, there's blood on someone's hands - and if they don't figure out what went wrong it's highly likely to happen again. :(

There are a LOT of questions to be answered, no doubt. A report just came across the AP that the FEMA director's been pulled out of Katrina duties. Quite rightly, I'd say.

As for the buses, they belonged to the mayor. They could have been used to get people out BEFORE, as well as after - and neither happened. As is now being reported, the Red Cross was prevented by the state authorities (reporting to the Governor) from reaching the people the Duke students did - that applied to the Convention Center, the Superdome and I believe the now-infamous highway.

I suppose, off the top of my head, the buses could have been heading to higher ground in order to be mobilized for later?? Maybe they were filled with supplies and the students just couldn't see in? I'm trying to give the mayor some slack, but that's about the best I can do...

[Gapeach3DFan]

I think it may have been a bit difficult for some of the people whose photos I have seen on the web to get out in time - quite a lot of them seemed to be really old and/or really poor - just an observation... anyway now is the time for God's people to do what they can to help and not keep on trying to figure it out - all we really need to figure out now is what can we do to be the hands of Christ for these people......

whatever happened to love??? :) :) :) :confused:

Actually, Sharon, they did have a way out. One of our local radio stations had a police man from New Orleans in the studio yesterday. They're each having to take a couple days off b/c of all the hours they've been putting in. He had brought his family here as soon as he heard that the storm was heading in their direction. Then, he'd gone back to work. So, he came up here to be with his family during those couple of days. Anyway, he said that everyone was offered a bus ride out of the city for free. That was even before the Superdome was set up as the last-resort shelter. He also said that Mayor Nagin pleaded with the people to leave. And, that they were not arresting people that were stealing food or water, only those that were stealing plasma tvs, Nike shoes, things like that. And, the prisoners were not released. They were transported to other jails. He said they actually have plenty of individual volunteers to help. He said they need companies to step up and help, though.

[ICarlson99]

And if they'd taken the president's advice the week before the storm and manditorily evacuated (as he asked the Governor and Mayor to do), it wouldn't have required a last-minute scramble.

On the positive side, the death toll now appears to have been largely over-estimated. Let's hope that ends up being the case...

[TX3DFan]

That picture with the school buses just sitting there is every bit as depressing as anything else coming out of New Orleans. In the immortal words of Metallica, "Sad, but True".

It isn't nearly as depressing as a picture of the real thing. This is a shot of the Ray Nagin Memorial Motor Pool, 255 buses flooded.

http://static.flickr.com/28/40217125_002c0fb411_o.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/26/40217127_c4499b3641_o.jpg

[ICarlson99]

That bottom one you posted was the one I was talking about, but I couldn't find a picture.

:mad:

Some more uplifting news, if you go to Yahoo! and click on the Red Cross logo, it takes you to a page with donation options, but also gives the totals donated and number of donors:

Total Collected: $53,803,320
Number of Donors: 378,772

Amazing. :)

[Pouye]

That bottom one you posted was the one I was talking about, but I couldn't find a picture.

:mad:

Some more uplifting news, if you go to Yahoo! and click on the Red Cross logo, it takes you to a page with donation options, but also gives the totals donated and number of donors:

Total Collected: $53,803,320
Number of Donors: 378,772

Amazing. :)

It looks like the average gift is about 140 dollars. The other night I did the math and it came out to almost exactly 100 dollars.

Rock

[Yippy]

Wow, I'm really enjoying this conversation. And I really appreciate the thoughtful posts. Today I kind of lit into one of my coworkers, poor guy, who was doing the Bush bashing thing over Katrina. I'm just getting so tired of the ignorance. I didn't tell him that, but I did give him a little education on the basics of how the government works. This was all after we had a discussion about Green Day. (He just loves the message in their songs. I told him that I'm not all that appreciative of their message eventhough I respect their right to have one. It's easy to tear down and complain...what's their solution?) Anyway, I was watching a little blip on CBS, and an anchor actually asked a reporter on location in Louisiana if people were specifically angry at Bush... :rolleyes: It's like is that the most important question you can come up with amid all this devestation? Later on CBS (I know...but I was channel surfing), there was actually a report on Katrina with the sole focus being on the federal gov'ts failure.

Why am I telling you this? I don't know. :p I'm just ranting. :D

[Mr.Elwood]

Why am I telling you this? I don't know. :p I'm just ranting. :D

WELL! I for one am glad that REAL civics courses have been cut so we can make sure the determinedly lazy can still get through school and feel good about themselves without any clue on how government really works other than what’s “rightfully theirs” (Thank you Al and Jesse and Ted and Hillary and Bill…etc). That way, when situations like this happen, those self-esteem bloated students can help in the evacuation and be creative thinkers, problem solvers, and leaders. Or they can sit around and wait for others to tell them where they need to be and how to feel…etc.. and they can then help by ranting and raving why everything wasn’t done for them.. .etc..

Tis a real shame in this age of instant information that there is as much ignorance in the educated elite (Press corps) as there is in the thugs that cause problem while people die..

Ok… that was my rant… I’m done.. fer now..

[jrmitch]

Glad to have you aboard - welcome!

My home church here in Denver had 5 sister churches destroyed by Katrina (one in Biloxi was just 3 blocks from the Gulf). I'd like to give a link to a relief organization affiliated with our network of churches that is also providing manpower and supplies to the area.

Calvary Chapel has established a disaster relief fund, and there are numerous relief teams that have come to the Gulf Coast from Calvary affiliates all over the country. For more info on how you can help - either in person or financially - you can use these links:
http://www.calvarychapel.com/gulfcoast/
http://www.calvarychapel.com
(click on the tab for "hurricane Katrina" relief).

Melissa, many folks here in Denver are sending both prayers and help your way. Please keep us posted as things progress, okay? We want to hear from you!

Blessings and prayers/Jim ;)

[jrmitch]

There are a LOT of questions to be answered, no doubt. A report just came across the AP that the FEMA director's been pulled out of Katrina duties. Quite rightly, I'd say.......As I write this I'm listening to the Dateline special on NBC regarding what went wrong in New Orleans, and there's one question I just can't find an answer to......wait a minute, based upon something I just heard make that two questions:

1. How does a disaster relief team from Vancouver, British Columbia, get to New Orleans before FEMA?

2. How does a guy like Mike Brown, who has only a 3 year stint as emergency services manager for Edmond, Okla., and had done no disaster planning or management for more than 20 years get hired as FEMA's general counsel? If anyone has a clue please fill me in........ :eek: :eek:

[maxx]

Didn't I also read they were donating $1 for each time the song is downloaded?

[bholdj]

why not give the proceeds of the sales to those in need?

Dude, Jason Im going to give you the benifit of the doubt, and assume you have been hiding on mars while thirdday raised a comined 82,000 dollars this week for the hurricane victims.

By the way, on a hyjacking note. Do you have a copy of the reformation bible? Those arn't popular in Lubbock and i would like to know were to order a copy.

Hope things are well.

John

[Howlin' Wolf]

Dude, Jason Im going to give you the benifit of the doubt, and assume you have been hiding on mars while thirdday raised a comined 82,000 dollars this week for the hurricane victims.

By the way, on a hyjacking note. Do you have a copy of the reformation bible? Those arn't popular in Lubbock and i would like to know were to order a copy.

Hope things are well.

John

i made this thread when thirdday had only released a song. it confused me. its like, "hey, youre world just got rocked! have a free song!"...but in true fashion, third day has stepped up.

i do have a reformation study bible. i got mine at lifeway, but a cheaper version is available at the westminster seminary bookstore. i dont have the link, but i have ordered a few things from there and they have great prices. i bought Calvin's institutes from them

[jrmitch]

Hey all,

Thought it'd be a good idea to start a thread for those who want to physically and/or financially help with churches supporting relief efforts in the Gulf states. If your church/denomination/organization is offering ongoing assistance please post that info here.

Please also keep those currenty assisting in rescue and restoration efforts in prayer, as they are attempting to minister to the emotional and spiritual devastation as well as the physical needs.

My church affiliation (Calvary Chapel) has established a disaster relief fund, and there are numerous relief teams that have come to the Gulf Coast from Calvary affiliates all over the country. For more info on how you can help - either in person or financially - you can use these links:
http://www.calvarychapel.com/gulfcoast/
http://www.calvarychapel.com
(click on the tab for "hurricane Katrina" relief).

Peace/Jim

[bholdj]

i made this thread when thirdday had only released a song. it confused me. its like, "hey, youre world just got rocked! have a free song!"...but in true fashion, third day has stepped up.

i do have a reformation study bible. i got mine at lifeway, but a cheaper version is available at the westminster seminary bookstore. i dont have the link, but i have ordered a few things from there and they have great prices. i bought Calvin's institutes from them

Lifeway will do it for me. I might ask you later about your link, my brother chris is at RTS seminary in Jackson mississippi, maybe he can help me out to.

Are you a football fan? University of Texas just fought its butt off to a 25-22 win. Great football game.

As for my football aliigance. Alabama beat Southern Miss 30-21, Bama's 2-0 :D

[Howlin' Wolf]

Lifeway will do it for me. I might ask you later about your link, my brother chris is at RTS seminary in Jackson mississippi, maybe he can help me out to.

Are you a football fan? University of Texas just fought its butt off to a 25-22 win. Great football game.

As for my football aliigance. Alabama beat Southern Miss 30-21, Bama's 2-0 :D

bill callahan has taken a bowl team and reduced them into a 5-6 team with zero ability to pund the football. sucks to be a husker fan now

[MusicianaryMary]

USC is the best college football team in the country. Go Trojans!! Fight On!! ;) :D

[Kyle's dad]

OK here is mine.

http://www.elca.org/disaster/article.asp?id=47&mode=3

Most, if not all of the church related disater relief funds are set up where 100% of the money goes to hurricane relief. That is not the case with the Red Cross. I'm not bashing the Red Cross, they are a great orgnization, and if you give to the Red Cross, no matter where the money goes, it's going to a good cause. I am just saying if you want all your funds to go hurricane relief, give through a church related relief fund.

[bholdj]

bill callahan has taken a bowl team and reduced them into a 5-6 team with zero ability to pund the football. sucks to be a husker fan now

Really? rumor has it Nebraska's "blackshirts" are back. They have pounded the last two teams they've faced on defense.

I live in Lubbock, Tech beat the crud out of a florida international team. But no chance they stay with nebraska or Texas. 15 penalites and giving up over 140 yards rushing won't do it.

Anyway, have a good day hoss.

[Gandalf]

Either way, all you college football fans can be glad Martz isn't running your organizations :rolleyes:

The man is a brilliant offensive coordinator, but once in charge, has managed to destroy a team that Vermeel left with a shot at having a dynasty.

[Gandalf]

1. How does a disaster relief team from Vancouver, British Columbia, get to New Orleans before FEMA?
FEMA is basically a federal gov't insurance agency - they come in and write checks. Their average response time is between 48 and 72 hours, and this time they were right on par with that. They can't legally do anything until requested by the state to do so (the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction - it's a states' rights issue). Private organizations can always respond more quicly than a federal bureaucracy that's really set up to just analyze the situation and write checks.

The incompetence of the mayor and governor is appalling, but FEMA's never been any better than this, or any worse. All they can do is provide assistance, mostly financial and some emergency supplies, when the states request it in areas that have been declared to be in a state of emergency. They can't come in and take over; the local governments have the authority in the matter.

Regardless of the blame game though, helping the people in need is more important than blaming someone for events that were beyond anyone's control.

[bholdj]

Either way, all you college football fans can be glad Martz isn't running your organizations :rolleyes:

The man is a brilliant offensive coordinator, but once in charge, has managed to destroy a team that Vermeel left with a shot at having a dynasty.

Brian,

Considering the work vermiel has done in K.C. You have hit it on the mark. Feel bad for you st. louis guys with your football...

Heck, theres always the cards right :p

[ICarlson99]

Heard an interesting observation today:

The groups that performed the best are those despised by the left (churches, military and big business - i.e. Wal Mart), while the organizations trumpeted by the left - big government - failed miserably.

Yet the cry from the left will be "more government" (i.e. more taxes) :rolleyes:

[ICarlson99]

FEMA never has been and never will be a first responder - like Gandalf said, they're basically just a governmental insurance company. Individuals, private groups (that can avoid beaurocracy) will ALWAYS beat FEMA to the scene. Same thing happened after Hurricane Andrew (no matter what Hillary says :rolleyes: )

If the people of this country want FEMA to be first responders, just put them under the military. If you want the government to accomplish something - put it under the military. It's the only part of the government that's efficient and effective.

As for Mike Brown - he was an attorney for 18 years before he joined FEMA, it's not like they pulled him out of grad school. And I'm not saying he was qualified to be the head of FEMA - but he clearly had legal experience.

[JCF]

FEMA never has been and never will be a first responder - like Gandalf said, they're basically just a governmental insurance company.

It's not exactly an accurate statement to say that FEMA is basically a governmental insurance company that just comes in to write checks....at least according to FEMA.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is the independent Federal agency responsible for leading America’s efforts to prepare for, prevent, respond to, and recover from disasters. FEMA was formed in 1979 by executive order of the President, combining Federal programs that deal with all phases of emergency management, for disasters of all types, into a single agency.


The first two goals of FEMA...


Goal 1. Reduce loss of life and property.
Objective 1.1: Provide hazard and risk information using the best-suited technologies.
Objective 1.2: Ensure that the Nation’s most vulnerable areas are covered by emergency management plans that can be implemented.
Objective 1.3: Ensure the capabilities of Federal, State, Territorial, Tribal, local, and other partners are in place to plan and prepare for disasters
Objective 1.4: Help individuals, local governments, States, Territories, Tribal Nations, and Federal agencies make good risk management decisions.
Objective 1.5: Develop and implement a comprehensive training and education plan for emergency management planners and responders.

Goal 2. Minimize suffering and disruption caused by disasters.
Objective 2.1: Respond quickly and effectively when States, Territories, Tribal Nations, and local governments are overwhelmed.
Objective 2.2: Use the full range of State, Territorial, Tribal, and Federal capabilities in determining the most effective delivery mechanisms for disaster recovery and mitigation programs.
Objective 2.3: Provide timely and appropriate disaster assistance and payment of flood insurance claims.
Objective 2.4: Mitigate against potential future losses as part of every disaster recovery effort.

[Gandalf]

Those are their goals. But, the fact that the States retain higher authority and they basically have only limited jurisdiction even in federal disaster areas makes them rather ineffective at anything but check writing if they're not paired with competent leadership at the state and local level. When they're working with competent state leaders, they can do more than just write checks, and even when not, they do manage to bring in some supplies, rescue some people, etc. but their effectiveness is largely tied to what those who actually hold the authority in an area (governors, etc.) do, and ask them to do.

[jrmitch]

Those are their goals. But, the fact that the States retain higher authority and they basically have only limited jurisdiction even in federal disaster areas makes them rather ineffective at anything but check writing if they're not paired with competent leadership at the state and local level. When they're working with competent state leaders, they can do more than just write checks, and even when not, they do manage to bring in some supplies, rescue some people, etc. but their effectiveness is largely tied to what those who actually hold the authority in an area (governors, etc.) do, and ask them to do.Brian, can you (or anyone else) clarify something? I thought that in the event that a state of emergency had been declared by the President that local/state government was immediately under FEMAs authority. If that's the case (and I'm not sure, which is why I'm asking to begin with) why would they need permission from local officials to hustle teams into the affected area? :confused:

[JCF]

Those are their goals. But, the fact that the States retain higher authority and they basically have only limited jurisdiction even in federal disaster areas makes them rather ineffective at anything but check writing if they're not paired with competent leadership at the state and local level. When they're working with competent state leaders, they can do more than just write checks, and even when not, they do manage to bring in some supplies, rescue some people, etc. but their effectiveness is largely tied to what those who actually hold the authority in an area (governors, etc.) do, and ask them to do.

Yes, I stated that those were FEMA's goals. Surely those goals aren't just lip service. ;)

I believe FEMA has more than limited jurisdiction in a federal disaster area.

The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, as amended, 42 U.S.C. 5121 et seq. This statute authorizes the President to provide assistance to State and local governments, as well as some nonprofit entities and individual disaster victims, in the aftermath of Presidentially-declared emergencies and major disasters. Most of the Stafford Act authorities have been delegated to the Director of FEMA pursuant to Executive Order 12148, as amended.


The following is included in The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act.


§ 5170b. ESSENTIAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 403}

1. In general

Federal agencies may on the direction of the President, provide assistance essential to meeting immediate threats to life and property resulting from a major disaster, as follows:

1. Federal resources, generally

Utilizing, lending, or donating to State and local governments Federal equipment, supplies, facilities, personnel, and other resources, other than the extension of credit, for use or distribution by such governments in accordance with the purposes of this Act.

2. Medicine, food, and other consumables

Distributing or rendering through State and local governments, the American National Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief and disaster assistance organizations medicine, food, and other consumable supplies, and other services and assistance to disaster victims.

3. Work and services to save lives and protect property

Performing on public or private lands or waters any work or services essential to saving lives and protecting and preserving property or public health and safety, including--

1. debris removal;
2. search and rescue, emergency medical care, emergency mass care, emergency shelter, and provision of food, water, medicine, and other essential needs, including movement of supplies or persons;
3. clearance of roads and construction of temporary bridges necessary to the performance of emergency tasks and essential community services;
4. provision of temporary facilities for schools and other essential community services;
5. demolition of unsafe structures which endanger the public;
6. warning of further risks and hazards;
7. dissemination of public information and assistance regarding health and safety measures;
8. provision of technical advice to State and local governments on disaster management and control; and
9. reduction of immediate threats to life, property, and public health and safety.

[Gandalf]

They have virtually unfettered access to federal resources. But, they're still subject to a State's wishes when operating within that State. The feds don't have the authority, Constitutionally, to just come in and take over unless the State government has been destroyed - the State still has overall control of disaster relief efforts within the state, evacuations or lack thereof, etc. FEMA can't tell the State what to do; they only have authority over the federal resources.

So, if the State doesn't cooperate with FEMA, doesn't want FEMA assistance, or just doesn't do a very good job of organizing things so that FEMA can help them, there's not much FEMA can do about that. The State is still the rightful legal authority. That was my only point - I didn't mean to imply that FEMA doesn't have control of federal aid to the region, but that the federal government does not have authority over the States in the sort of way that would allow them to just come in and disregard the State's wishes in such a situation. Sorry if I was unclear.

[JCF]

They have virtually unfettered access to federal resources. But, they're still subject to a State's wishes when operating within that State. The feds don't have the authority, Constitutionally, to just come in and take over unless the State government has been destroyed - the State still has overall control of disaster relief efforts within the state, evacuations or lack thereof, etc. FEMA can't tell the State what to do; they only have authority over the federal resources.

So, if the State doesn't cooperate with FEMA, doesn't want FEMA assistance, or just doesn't do a very good job of organizing things so that FEMA can help them, there's not much FEMA can do about that. The State is still the rightful legal authority. That was my only point - I didn't mean to imply that FEMA doesn't have control of federal aid to the region, but that the federal government does not have authority over the States in the sort of way that would allow them to just come in and disregard the State's wishes in such a situation. Sorry if I was unclear.

I understand that FEMA can't tell the State what to do and that the Federal Gov. just can't come in and just take over. But, once the State asks for help, the Feds have more jurisdiction than one might think. The text below is taken from the same Act I quoted in an earlier post.

Appointment of Federal coordinating officer

Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency,
the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate
in the affected area.

Functions of federal coordinating officer

In order to effectuate the purposes of this chapter, the Federal
coordinating officer, within the affected area, shall--

(1) make an initial appraisal of the types of relief most urgently
needed;

(2) establish such field offices as he deems necessary and as are
authorized by the President;

(3) coordinate the administration of relief, including activities of
the State and local governments, the American National Red Cross, the
Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief or
disaster assistance organizations, which agree to operate under his
advice or direction, except that nothing contained in this chapter
shall limit or in any way affect the responsibilities of the American
National Red Cross under the Act of January 5, 1905, as amended (33
Stat. 599) [36 U.S.C. 1 et seq.]; and

(4) take such other action, consistent with authority delegated to
him by the President, and consistent with the provisions of this
chapter, as he may deem necessary to assist local citizens and public
officials in promptly obtaining assistance to which they are entitled.

(c) State coordinating officer

When the President determines assistance under this chapter is
necessary, he shall request that the Governor of the affected State
designate a State coordinating officer for the purpose of coordinating
State and local disaster assistance efforts with those of the Federal
Government.

I was thinking the President declared a federal emergency when Katrina was two days from landfall....I could be wrong. I don't know when the Gov. of Louisana asked for help. But, I just can't believe that FEMA's hands were tied as tight as some might suggest.

[jrmitch]

CNN and ABC both reported that Bush had declared a state of emergency 48 hours before the storm hit. That's partially why I brought up incidents such as the guys from Duke and the relief team from Vancouver. It took more than a week after the hurricane for FEMA crews to arrive in New Orleans, Gulfport/Biloxi, and Mobile. If they had 48 hours before the storm to start working out the clearances and logistics why did it take so long - and how many people died as a result of what may have been just a local/Federal Government turf war?

Brian's right in saying that relief efforts should be the biggest current priority. But since these questions have to be eventually addressed why not start figuring it out now? That way those responsible for implementing disaster relief in the future can learn from whatever mistakes were made while it's fresh in everyones mind.

[ICarlson99]

I could be wrong, but I think declaring a state of emergency only frees up federal dollars. It doesn't give the feds control of the scene - that's still up to the governor, which is why they were still trying to get her to give up authority (or at least have equal authority over the situation) even during the weekend after the hurricane.

Mike Brown resigned today. Seems the right thing, but to make him out to be the scapegoat misses the larger point I think. The locals are the ones that put the feds in the position in the first place. Reminds me of a quote: "Failure to prepare on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". Okay, it's more effective when your boss uses it :D , but I think the point still holds.

[Gandalf]

I could be wrong, but I think declaring a state of emergency only frees up federal dollars. It doesn't give the feds control of the scene - that's still up to the governor, which is why they were still trying to get her to give up authority (or at least have equal authority over the situation) even during the weekend after the hurricane.
It also frees up federal resources from other restrictions - the military, etc. can be used as needed, etc. But you're right, it does not remove the authority of the State (and its governor), who still control the scene.

[oncelost1224]

Very well said - the Dems better be VERY careful how they play this one. The mayor and governor are going to look the worst when the preparation plans are evaluated.

As for the mayor, if you're not sure which party he belongs to - just look at his ranting quote where he said "Those two (the Pres and Gov) need to get together and figure this out". Ummm, mayor, it's YOUR city, what are YOU doing about it? Giuliani didn't take cover and complain through the media about what everyone else was going to do. The evacuation plan (which was posted on the city and state website) called for people to go to the Super Dome - so why were there no provisions pre-staged there? That's the MAYOR'S fault.

Had Bush forcibly taken control of the state like he technically could have and prevented the disaster - he would have been accused of grandstanding and violating states rights (because there wouldn't have been a huge disaster in the first place). And the governor would have been all ticked off about that.

Thankfully, most people are seeing through the garbage of the left - only 13% blame the president in the most recent CNN/USA Today poll - far more blame the governor and mayor.

FEMA also advises local authorities to be prepared for 48-72 hours of self-sufficiency before federal help will arrive. FEMA may have been slow to respond, and the director of FEMA may, deservedly so, be fired.

It's thinking like this that I can't stand. Not necessarily for its content or aim, just its approach. ICarlson99, everything you wrote was overshadowed by its blatant desire to turn this into a black and white republican vs. democrat brawl. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty of left-wing democrats who would approach this or any other situation as blindly committed to their party as you have done in this instance, but that method of thinking tends to leave the facts in the dust. I'm not saying you don't have a factual grasp of the situation. In fact, you've demonstrated quite the opposite, but the more partisan propoganda that one inserts between bits of truth, the faster his argument disintigrates. Again, I'm only critical of your presentation of your opinion, not your opinion itself. I just think arguments like these do more to distract people from the real issue than to help improve the situation.

I urge everyone to do what they can when they can for the hurricane victims and to not allow themselves to be distracted or even concerned with all the finger pointing that's flying back and forth.

God's Peace,

Jake

[JCF]

It also frees up federal resources from other restrictions - the military, etc. can be used as needed, etc. But you're right, it does not remove the authority of the State (and its governor), who still control the scene.

I don't think the authority of the state is in question. The federal government can still deliver supplies and step in when lives are at stake without being in control as long as the governor of the state has declared an emergency. That's what the The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act is all about. I've already posted part of this Act that says that the Feds can come in and, on the direction of the President, provide assistance essential to meeting immediate threats to life and property resulting from a major disaster and perform on public or private lands or waters any work or services essential to saving lives and protecting and preserving property or public health and safety.

President Bush announced on Wednesday after the hurricane that "the federal government's first priority is to rescue those still trapped and provide medical assistance. FEMA, the Coast Guard and the Department of Defense have sent resources to help with the search-and-rescue effort." Gov. Blanco didn't request national guard troops until Thursday. ICarlson has posted she didn't even begin to give up authority or even share authority until the weekend after the hurricane. Was President Bush breaking any laws or stepping on state's rights by announcing what he did Wednesday? I personally don't think so. Gov. Blanco declared a state of emergency on Friday, Aug 26th. President Bush declared a Federal emergency for Louisiana on the same day. This is not to say the Feds could come in and take over, but it does say that they can take an active role in relief.

Now, I believe the local and state authoritites really messed this thing up. It starts with them hands down. But, I don't think it's correct to make the statement that FEMA is basically there to write checks and be an insurance company.

[ICarlson99]

It's thinking like this that I can't stand. Not necessarily for its content or aim, just its approach. ICarlson99, everything you wrote was overshadowed by its blatant desire to turn this into a black and white republican vs. democrat brawl. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty of left-wing democrats who would approach this or any other situation as blindly committed to their party as you have done in this instance, but that method of thinking tends to leave the facts in the dust. I'm not saying you don't have a factual grasp of the situation. In fact, you've demonstrated quite the opposite, but the more partisan propoganda that one inserts between bits of truth, the faster his argument disintigrates. Again, I'm only critical of your presentation of your opinion, not your opinion itself. I just think arguments like these do more to distract people from the real issue than to help improve the situation.

I urge everyone to do what they can when they can for the hurricane victims and to not allow themselves to be distracted or even concerned with all the finger pointing that's flying back and forth.

God's Peace,

Jake

On the contrary, I've criticized the feds plenty - just trying to give a fair assesment of the situation. How am I the one making it a black/white, Republican/Democrat thing? I believe that was done by the Congressional Black Caucus quite swiftly, as well as the local and state officials who pointed the finger almost immediately for their own failings. I'm just responding. The leaders on the left are the ones unwilling to put the facts before their hateful rhetoric.

What's the "partisan propaganda" I've inserted? The Dems were the ones trying to use this to their advantage - I'm just saying they better be careful what they ask for because a thorough investigation is probably going to make their people look bad. But they don't care because they'll do anything to find blame with the President.

The only other remark I made about political party was the mayor insisting that OTHER people fix a situation that HE could have prevented or at least mitigated. That's very much a leftist mentality. When asked by Tim Russert what he would have done differently, he said - I kid you not - "I'd scream louder". Not "I'd get people on the buses before the hurricane and get them out after", not "I'd have declared a mandatory evacuation more than 24 hours before the storm hit so more elderly could be evacuated". Nope, he'd just yell louder for someone else to do something. Ridiculous.

There are significant issues being hashed out RIGHT NOW about the role of government and it is critical to be engaged in that AS WELL as helping those in need right now. It's not one or the other.

[Yippy]

One of our friends from church is from Slidell. His family lost pretty much everything. He's down there now...

http://www.hilltoprescue.org

[cheewiee]

http://www.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=Hurri caneKatrina

Lakewood Church in Houston Texas is providing assistance to those evacuee's who are in Houston.

[Howlin' Wolf]

do you go to lakewood?

[cheewiee]

Nope...

[prayercloth sis]

I have family in Gulf Port, MS. Anne's house was really hit hard, the roof expounded with the wind and it will take thousands to repair, her daughter Courtney lost all. but praise the Lord the are physically okay. We could have lost them as well as their home. Thank God he protected them all through this tragedy. My prayers and love and support go out to all. Here in Texarkana there are several places sending aid as well as the rest of the country. Thank God we live in the USA!!!! In God we still TRUST!

[thirday]

I have just returned home this morning from Hattiesburg, where I have been assisted in restoring power. I clear the trees so that the lineman can get the poles and wires back up. I arrived in Hatttiesburg on Aug 30th and started right away. I know that my crew and I helped in the restoring of power to thousands of homes, but I was totally blessed by the people there. Mississippians are truly great people. Even though some have lost everything, I was treat with such hospitality, that it brought tears to my eyes. One family, Tommy Bennet, invited us to Sunday dinner this past week and we were treated as "kin". This was a break that we so needed. I was fortuned enough to have a hotel room. We had six crews in the area. We would leave the hotel at 5:30am and not return until 9pm at the earliest. It was very hard, but rewarding work.
I will wrap up with this final story. We had stopped at this house to check the power lines. A huge oak tree had smashed a corner of the house exposing the interior. The tree completely covered this nice house. As I stood there looking, I was thinking "Nobody can live there with the house in the condition. I wonder where they are staying?" No sooner then I thought this, the front door openned from under the tree. A lady came crawling thru the tree to where we were. She inquired about the power, and we answered her that the lineman follow us within the week. Then she asked a question that blew me away. "Can I get ya some water or ice? Can I fix ya something to eat?" Southern Hospitality at it's greatest. THANK YOU MISSISSPPI. God bless you all. Paul B.

[triciaplumley]

Please take no offense to my comment...I am just tired of people saying "they should have gotten out before..." "They deserve it..."etc. The fact of the matter is that it happened, we shouldn't be arguing over the details before the fact...there are thousands of people now that need our help and woulda-shoulda comments are pointless. I know you didn't want this to happen, I just didn't know where else to put this thread... In times like these we need to deal with the facts at hand, and those are that human beings are without food,water,homes...basic necessities. I just wish people would ban together to help our fellow Americans instead of bashing what the refugees have done, what the relief workers have failed to do...etc. Just my thoughts..as I know all of us on here have done what we could do to help. God Bless all of you..

Amen sister!!!

[triciaplumley]

My heart is just breaking over everything that has happened because of Katrina. I want everyone in the affected states to know I'm praying. BTW, does anyone know whether the song was released just locally in the south or whether it was nationwide? My local Christian station is based just across the border from me in Washington state. I haven't heard anything about it yet.

Marta
Hi Marta, I'm also in Washington state. They have a free download of the song on this website (Third Days).....awesome song btw!!!! And, you can call Scott and Sam (Spirit 105.3fm) and they'll play it for you. God Bless!

[triciaplumley]

now obviously, i don't think it was a good thing at all.

honestly, i get frustrated with trying to understand disasters of a large perportion while reconciling that God is still in control. but He's God. i am not. there it is. so, while all of the stuff that happens really sucks, it's ultimately what we do with our pain that counts. my choice is to bring it to Him.

i just wanted to post this bulletin so that you know that there are those claiming to belong to the body of Christ that might object to any of us feeling upset over this. westboro baptist church [an institution that i often speak of, mainly in the context that i regret that it even exists] made a press statement of sorts on the front page of their website. here's part of it:

"Pray for more dead bodies floating on the fag-semen-rancid waters of New Orleans.
Pray for more American bodies blown to smithereens by cheap home made Iraqi IEDs - like the IED America bombed WBC with August 20, 1995, hoping thereby to terrorize us into silence about America's fag sins."

i really really want to cry right now. yeah, i know it's not cool or whatever, but geez.

i can understand people having hidden motives [i.e. radical homophobia in WBC's case], and them using little news tidbits to nurture their bigotry, but a major natural disaster? they did this back when the tsunamis hit too, also claiming that God allowed them to hit because there were american and swedish tourists in the area, and both countries happen to have citizens of a certain kind that this church doesn't like, God really must've wanted to kill all those people.

so because these people don't like other people, God automatically agrees with them and decides to kill more than 150,000 people and leave many more homeless. this, to me, is a lesson to us in letting God be God and not putting our words and biases in His mouth.

i know that it probably won't do any good, but if you find a little time, send an email to these folks [info@godhatesamerica.com] and let them know that you don't appreciate their agenda being shoved into our God's mouth.

thanks for reading. later.
This is a christian church here in America??? :eek: Wow! The devil does walk among us hu?

[jrmitch]

"He [Jesus] sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command."
Hebrews 1:3 (NLT)

"The Son... [is] sustaining all things by his powerful word."
(NIV)

"[Jesus is] upholding all things by the word of his power."
(KJV).....I think what we are dealing with, again, is the complexity of God's sovereignty, which we humans cannot fully comprehend......RockVery well said. In other words - trust God, period. He's God; we're not. Sometimes that just has to be enough.

[jrmitch]

....There are significant issues being hashed out RIGHT NOW about the role of government and it is critical to be engaged in that AS WELL as helping those in need right now. It's not one or the other.Agreed. No matter who is at fault - and there are plenty of them, on all levels - people died from the lack of preparation and cooperation. To wait very long until addressing those issues removes a sense of urgency from finding out what caused them in the first place.

Here's a related story from the Associated Press:

Money that Congress set aside for evacuation plan went elsewhere

By RITA BEAMISH
Associated Press Writer

As far back as eight years ago, Congress ordered the Federal Emergency Management Agency to develop a plan for evacuating New Orleans during a massive hurricane, but the money instead went to studying the causeway bridge that spans the city's Lake Pontchartrain, officials say.

The outcome provides one more example of the government's failure to prepare for a massive but foreseeable catastrophe, said the lawmaker who helped secure the money for FEMA to develop the evacuation plan.

"They never used it for the intended purpose," said former Rep. Billy Tauzin, R-La. "The whole intent was to give them resources so they could plan an evacuation of New Orleans that anticipated that a very large number of people would never leave."

In Hurricane Katrina's aftermath, attention has focused on the inability of local and federal officials to evacuate or prepare for the large number of poor people, many of them minorities, who had no access to transportation and remained behind.

That possibility was one of the concerns that led Congress in 1997 to set aside $500,000 for FEMA to create "a comprehensive analysis and plan of all evacuation alternatives for the New Orleans metropolitan area."

Frustrated two years later that nothing materialized, Congress strengthened its directive. This time it ordered "an evacuation plan for a Category 3 or greater storm, a levee break, flood or other natural disaster for the New Orleans area."

The $500,000 that Congress appropriated for the evacuation plan went to a commission that studied future options for the 24-mile bridge over Lake Pontchartrain, FEMA spokesman Butch Kinerney said.

The hefty report produced by the Greater New Orleans Expressway Commission "primarily was not about evacuation," said Robert Lambert, the general manager for the bridge expressway. "In general it was an overview of all the things we need to do" for the causeway through 2016.

Lambert said he could not trace how or if FEMA money came to the commission. Nor could Shelby LaSalle, a causeway consulting engineer who worked on the plan.

LaSalle said it would be "ludicrous" to consider his report an evacuation plan, although it had a transportation evacuation section, dated Dec. 19, 1997. That part was tacked on mainly to promote the causeway for future designation as an official evacuation route, LaSalle said.

"We didn't do anything for FEMA," he added.

[prayercloth sis]

All of you prayer Warriors

Please pray for this part of our country it is looking really bad, the storm is sitting out in the gulf and getter bigger by the minute. 170 mph, last report.

I have two nephews, Tom and Chad and a Sister and brother-in-law Deb and Bill weathering out this storm. They are in the Humble/Kingwood area. Kingwood floods really bad!!!! All of them live there but Deb and Bill.

The last time this happened the whole place flooded and the flood stopped at the edge of the driveway at my sister's house. Everyone else aound her flooded. This is even ground, so we all know God performed a miracle!!!

My niece Christian and her husband and baby boy are on their way out as of this morning. She is expecting in a couple of months.

The roads are packed and my husband called and said that a friend at work has family on the road that left there last night and after 13 hours had only gone 75 miles.

Pleae pray that God would protect my loved ones and the La. and Tx. folks that are in the path of this storm.

I pray that God would have mercy and provide divine intervention and stop this hurricane in it's tracts in Jesus Name. Lord allow the power to die down before it gets to land in Jeus name Amen

Pray everyone, we do not need another devastation in our country and prayer works. God is still on the throne and sitting on the mercy seat!!!!

Rhonie

[jrmitch]

Colorado is praying....... :)

[jrmitch]

Serious question, guys. Here's the deal - one thing FEMA won't do in the Gulf coast is supply manpower to clean up damaged property sites. In this aspect, there's a huge need for good old fashioned muscle and tools such as chain saws, shovels, etc. And since a significant portion of those whose properties have been destroyed are either elderly and/or don't have the financial resources to get cleanup done, they're stranded with no real help. So a number of churches across the country are developing plans to come alongside local government and church leadership in hurricane ravaged communities and pledge supplies, manpower, and spiritual support to assist w/long term rebuilding efforts.

We got involved because my pastor is a former chaplain for the Denver Broncos; recently a former player (Steve Foley) called and begged for help. (Steve is from New Orleans, and was a college classmate of their police Chief). So, to make a long story short we're developing a plan to come alongside Long Beach (MS) and work with them over the next 5 years to help rebuild the community.

The mayor of Freeport told my pastor, "we've got more water than the hurricane brought ashore, and I don't think I ever want to see a can of Vienna sausage or Spam again. Our biggest crisis is lack of manpower; we need tools and muscle to clean this mess up and rebuild". What we're going to do is establish a tent city for those going down to help and send teams of people down for week long shifts. In fact, at our pastors suggestion we've had several people able to go to their employer and say "Uh...my pastor pleaded with me to go to Missisippi to help with hurricane clean up. Would you donate me - with pay - for a week? You could consider this a tax deductible business donation. Except instead of sending money or supplies you're sending me".... and their employers have agreed!

Look, I know not all churches have either the finances or manpower to be able to offer assistance; we're fortunate in that we're a large church that has a history of putting our money where our mouth is. But if you think your church has the resources and heart to come alongside our newest third world country (aka the gulf coast) beg them to find a way to help if they're not doing so already. This is a national crisis, guys - it's time for the body of Christ to step up.

Blessings/Jim

[servant]

Sensible comments here, and it isn't very long.


To my friends and family: From a Mc Comb Resident





What I have seen since Katrina:

The poor and the wealthy hurt by the storm.

Black, white, Hispanic, Oriental and Indian all hurt by the storm.

Christian people giving, giving, giving.

Churches going all out to minister in Jesus' name.

Neighbors going door to door helping one another.

Thugs and hoodlums going door to door looking for someone vulnerable.

Ice and water being fought over as police tried to keep the peace.

People coming up from New Orleans taking over empty houses because shelters are full.

Out of town volunteers coming with food and staying for now a week still serving it.

The Churches all over this part of the country doing what Christians do in a crisis.

The Red Cross doing a great job in the shelters.

The Salvation Army doing a great job in the community.

Four Hundred crewman from everywhere bring back the power to our homes, churches and businesses.

Lines at service stations a block to a mile long.

National Guardsman patrolling the streets of Mc Comb along with Kentucky policemen protecting us from the hoodlums and thugs of Mc Comb, Pike County and New Orleans (the most dangerous city in the world before Katrina.)

Drug dealers working outside shelters.

Doctors, nurses and other hospital personnel working tirelessly, even sleeping in the hospital to do the job.


WHAT I HAVE NOT SEEN;

The ACLU setting up a feeding line.

People for the American Way helping in the shelters.

The NAACP doing any work whatsoever.

The American Atheist organization serving meals in the shelters.

Jesse Jackson directing traffic at the gas stations.

I could go on but you get my message.. Its the Christian people with love and compassion who do the work.

The gripers in Congress should come on down and get in line to pass the water and the ice. Are you listening Hillary, Chuck, Teddy and all the sorry loafers we call Senators and Congressmen.. They don't have a clue as to what this life is all about here on the Gulf Coast.



PLEASE PASS THIS ON.

[Yippy]

We're in a relatively small church but have sent many people and funds to Slidell already...one of our church members (and dear friend) has family there who have set up a command center with a laundromat and bathrooms on their property.

Like jrmitch says, they really need manpower as well as funds down there for a long time...

This website will give you a lot info you can use to help the various communities down there:

http://www.hilltoprescue.org

We are thinking of going down there as a family to help out instead of "doing Christmas" or sending the money we would spend doing Christmas. Of course we got the collective moan from the kids ;) as far as the skipping Christmas stuff, but it's important to us that they know how really serious things are outside of their little world. We can be so self centered (grownups included :p ). This is a great opportunity to be "others-centered." Not to mention that people are in dire need of help. The kids really do want to help...

[ICarlson99]

Each political party has a trained physician in its leadership (Bill Frist, Howard Dean). One spent the aftermath of Katrina on the ground finding ways to help people. The other spent the aftermath complaining about the other party not doing enough to help people. Sadly all-too typical :rolleyes:

[jrmitch]

Grrrrr :mad: :mad:

Taken fom todays online Chicago Tribune:

Two days after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, as images of devastation along the Gulf Coast and despair in New Orleans flickered across television screens, the head of one of the nation's largest bus associations repeatedly called federal disaster officials to offer help.

Peter Pantuso of the American Bus Association said he spent much of the day on Wednesday, Aug. 31, trying to find someone at the Federal Emergency Management Agency who could tell him how many buses were needed for an evacuation, where they should be sent and who was overseeing the effort.

"We never talked directly to FEMA or got a call back from them," Pantuso said.

Pantuso, whose members include some of the nation's largest motor coach companies, including Greyhound and Coach USA, eventually learned that the job of extracting tens of thousands of residents from flooded New Orleans wasn't being handled by FEMA at all. Instead the agency had farmed the work out to a trucking logistics firm, Landstar Express America, which in turn hired a limousine company, which in turn engaged a travel management company.

Over the next four days, those companies and a collection of Louisiana officials cobbled together a fleet of at least 1,100 buses that belatedly descended on New Orleans to evacuate residents waiting amid the squalor and mayhem of the Superdome and the city's convention center.

The story of the bus evacuation of New Orleans is partly one of heroism by a handful of people who, when called upon, acted quickly and improvised in the face of desperate need. But the story also underscores a critical failure in the disaster plan: the inability of government to provide even the most rudimentary transportation to take people out of harm's way.

The day before the storm hit Aug. 29, the city of New Orleans had ordered its residents to flee but had not made provisions for upwards of 100,000 residents too old, too poor or otherwise unable or unwilling to leave. Mayor C. Ray Nagin has acknowledged in television interviews that the city had hundreds of transit and school buses available to at least begin an evacuation ahead of Katrina's arrival but couldn't find enough drivers willing to chance getting caught in the huge storm.

When Katrina's storm surges breached the city's levees, putting much of the city under water, it was up to state officials and FEMA to oversee a gigantic evacuation. But they, too, were caught unprepared.

Though it was well-known that New Orleans, much of it below sea level, would flood in a major hurricane, Landstar, the Jacksonville company that held a federal contract that at the time was worth up to $100 million annually for disaster transportation, did not ask its subcontractor, Carey Limousine, to order buses until the early hours of Aug. 30, roughly 18 hours after the storm hit, according to Sally Snead, a Carey senior vice president who headed the bus roundup. Landstar inquired about the availability of buses on Sunday, Aug. 28, and earlier Monday, but placed no orders, Snead said.

She said Landstar turned to her company for buses Sunday after learning from Carey's Internet site that it had a meetings and events division that touted its ability to move large groups of people. "They really found us on the Web site," Snead said. A Landstar spokeswoman declined comment on how the company responded to the hurricane.

Messages left for a FEMA spokeswoman were not returned.

Snead said she tapped Transportation Management Services of Vienna, Va., which specializes in arranging buses for conventions and other large events, to help fill an initial order for 300 coaches.

"It's like taking your phone book and dividing it in half and saying, `You take half and I'll take half,'" Snead said.

Unbeknownst to them, two key players who could reach the owners of an estimated 70 percent of the nation's 35,000 charter and tour buses had contacted FEMA seeking to supply coaches to the evacuation effort.

The day the hurricane made landfall, Victor Parra, president of the United Motorcoach Association, called FEMA's Washington office "to let them know our members could help out."

Parra said FEMA responded the next day, referring him to an agency Web page labeled "Doing Business with FEMA" but containing no information on the hurricane relief effort.

On Wednesday, Aug. 31, Pantuso of the American Bus Association cut short a vacation thinking his members surely would be needed in evacuation efforts.

Unable to contact FEMA directly, Pantuso, through contacts on Capitol Hill, learned of Carey International's role and called Snead.

Pantuso said Snead told him she meant to call earlier but didn't have a phone number.

Finally, sometime after 5 p.m. on Wednesday, Pantuso and Parra had enough information to send an SOS to their members to help in the evacuation.

By the weekend, more than 1,000 buses were committed to ferrying stranded New Orleans residents to shelters in Houston and other cities.

[prayercloth sis]

The site of those buses that could have been used just makes me nauseated.

I don't mind helping folks but who's to say at least try to help yourself, the buses were there, maybe not enough for everyone, but it would have saved some.

TThere are those that worked hard all their life to have something and have lost it all.

I have mixed emotions. Regardless of my opionions concerning some, like the ones that shot at the rescue teams?????I can't figure that out.

I do have compassion for all. They are human beings and deserve any help we can give. Especially those that have no hope and lost everything they have worked for and those that have lost loved ones.

It's just a terrible devastation to our country, and we have to stay united and help one another no matter what.

If it happened to me I would want help from my fellow countrymen.

I do not blame anyone, no one could have ever been fully prepared for this devastating hurricane. I do hope that we can at least learn from it so that we can respond better in the future.

God Bless

Rhonie

[ICarlson99]

I wonder if we'll be seeing retractions of all the erroneous reporting on what happened at the New Orleans Convention Center. (Don't hold your breath)

This from the New Orleans Times-Picayune. Turns out almost all of the reports were completely false. This is why I said the Party of Hysteria better be very careful in trying to manipulate this. This was a tragic event, but once again, hysteria ruled the day with the media and with the left (good luck distinguishing between those two).

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_26.html#082732

[bholdj]

Sensible comments here, and it isn't very long.


To my friends and family: From a Mc Comb Resident





What I have seen since Katrina:

The poor and the wealthy hurt by the storm.

Black, white, Hispanic, Oriental and Indian all hurt by the storm.

Christian people giving, giving, giving.

Churches going all out to minister in Jesus' name.

Neighbors going door to door helping one another.

Thugs and hoodlums going door to door looking for someone vulnerable.

Ice and water being fought over as police tried to keep the peace.

People coming up from New Orleans taking over empty houses because shelters are full.

Out of town volunteers coming with food and staying for now a week still serving it.

The Churches all over this part of the country doing what Christians do in a crisis.

The Red Cross doing a great job in the shelters.

The Salvation Army doing a great job in the community.

Four Hundred crewman from everywhere bring back the power to our homes, churches and businesses.

Lines at service stations a block to a mile long.

National Guardsman patrolling the streets of Mc Comb along with Kentucky policemen protecting us from the hoodlums and thugs of Mc Comb, Pike County and New Orleans (the most dangerous city in the world before Katrina.)

Drug dealers working outside shelters.

Doctors, nurses and other hospital personnel working tirelessly, even sleeping in the hospital to do the job.


WHAT I HAVE NOT SEEN;

The ACLU setting up a feeding line.

People for the American Way helping in the shelters.

The NAACP doing any work whatsoever.

The American Atheist organization serving meals in the shelters.

Jesse Jackson directing traffic at the gas stations.

I could go on but you get my message.. Its the Christian people with love and compassion who do the work.

The gripers in Congress should come on down and get in line to pass the water and the ice. Are you listening Hillary, Chuck, Teddy and all the sorry loafers we call Senators and Congressmen.. They don't have a clue as to what this life is all about here on the Gulf Coast.



PLEASE PASS THIS ON.

Didn't see the rev Jesse doing anything in New Orleans to help indeed. How funny that he points at American racism when he can't help his own "people" :rolleyes:

[prayercloth sis]

We are all fine with very minor damage. Praise God.

God Bless you

Rhonie

[jrmitch]

Not making a political statement with this, other than to point out that while these shenanigans are happening people are still in desperate need of help. All the more reason why donating to programs such as Samaritans Purse and private church groups make sense as alternatives to the Red Cross and the Federal Government.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050928/ap_on_go_co/katrina_congress_hk4_12;_ ylt=ApfyeA8i2jH0hbsN8qNyW ywbLisB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04 NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[dpandtammy]

And, to add to all of this, I cannot believe how many people are trying to make this a racial issue!!! HELLO!!!! God does not favor one race over another. I see that both black and white have suffered, and the ones most affected are the "lower income" that maybe could not affor dto get out. Those people were NOT stuck in N.O. because of what color their skin is.
Also, I have had a lot of emails coming to me, debating on whether or not we should consider this the "Judgment of God" on New Orleans and the coastal casinos.....?? Anyone have an opinion they would like to share????

[KatrinaMemorial]

As winter draws closer, many are still homeless. Many are living in tents. Some of those that have returned home have no roofs, mold in their homes and little if anything left.

You are invited to view this emotionally moving Video Memorial from a Hurricane Katrina Award Winning Website. Please have you sound turned on and click on this link http://www.gmagic.com/katrina.
After viewing the video please take the time to look around and make a contribution directly to the charity of your choice. In addition to the video now being used by congress to introduce bills to the help victims, a powerful image depicting the struggles of the victims of Hurricane Katrina was created on the 2nd of September and was put online with the video. Because of the requests from numerous victims to have this image as a reminder, a T-shirt was created with proceeds going directly to the victims of Katrina. It is an amazing piece of artwork, be sure to click on the T-Shirt link and check it out as well.

If you or anyone you know is having difficulties dealing with FEMA, be sure to access the information on the femainfo.us site. It is highly recommended that you read this information and learn about helping victims learn how to receive what they are entitled to and justice in the event they are mistreated.

We are all one people living here on this planet and it is up to us to aid each other in matters such as these. Yours as well as my assistance is still needed. To those of you that have already given, Thank You. To those of you who have not donated as of this time, please do so and feel proud knowing that whatever it is that you can contribute will affect someone’s life in more ways than you know.

Proud to be an American, God Bless.

[Psalm25Gomer]

Hey y'all......FEMA has gotten a lot of attention.....and the media coverage of it seems to vary....

Last week...I heard that FEMA had already covered cost for trailers for the Katrina victims.

Only to find today....this link here....


Your thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/13/katrina.trailers/index.html

[Pouye]

Hey y'all......FEMA has gotten a lot of attention.....and the media coverage of it seems to vary....

Last week...I heard that FEMA had already covered cost for trailers for the Katrina victims.

Only to find today....this link here....


Your thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/13/katrina.trailers/index.html

Predictable and typical. Try getting a building permit, and you will see what I mean. You have to have all of your ducks in a row before they will do anything, but when it comes to their side of things, (like getting an inspector to come out), they take their own sweet time.

FEMA is stalling. Plain and simple. The need to cough up, or shut up.

Rock

[Psalm25Gomer]

Predictable and typical. Try getting a building permit, and you will see what I mean. You have to have all of your ducks in a row before they will do anything, but when it comes to their side of things, (like getting an inspector to come out), they take their own sweet time.

FEMA is stalling. Plain and simple. The need to cough up, or shut up.

Rock


I know very well about building, permits and all that. And yes, you do have to have everything lined up. FEMA had more than enough time for all that.

But they said they had ALREADY covered the cost ....so in other words.....they got everyone's hopes up....someone is finally helping them....and now this.

These people need help NOW. And you're right, Rock...they need to cough up or shut up.

[Pouye]

I know very well about building, permits and all that. And yes, you do have to have everything lined up. FEMA had more than enough time for all that.

But they said they had ALREADY covered the cost ....so in other words.....they got everyone's hopes up....someone is finally helping them....and now this.

These people need help NOW. And you're right, Rock...they need to cough up or shut up.

"Already" means that money has been allocated, but it cannot be released until all of their criteria are met. The problem is, the criteria cannot be met without first having the money. Catch 22.

Rock

[Gandalf]

And people think having these people run our health care system would be a good idea ;)

[kh294God]

at the same time have you seen the news report on what some of the people are doing with the money they received already from FEMA??? In short, not what they are suppose to be doing with it

[Psalm25Gomer]

And people think having these people run our health care system would be a good idea ;)

You kinda gotta weigh it out....


FEMA..........or President Bush? (Talking about his "confusing" Medicare plan)

[Gandalf]

I meant the government in general... don't want to derail the thread though.

[Psalm25Gomer]

I meant the government in general... don't want to derail the thread though.


I know....I was trying to "make light of it". ;)


Ok...back to the thread.

[Pouye]

at the same time have you seen the news report on what some of the people are doing with the money they received already from FEMA??? In short, not what they are suppose to be doing with it

FEMA can't really control that, but they could keep track of who they have given to and not give any more after they blow the money given. If the person then squeaks, they at least have it on record that they already helped them.

Have you seen what happens to village aid for the hungry when it is "distributed"? Just because there are abuses, doesn't mean they shouldn't give the money that they have promised to give (and has already been allocated).

Rock

[blacksheep]

I was in New Orleans after the hurricane, and yes a lot of people's lives got jacked up. However, we do not live in a socialist country. The reality of the situation is that these people, especially in New Orleans, built their house on the "sand". The U.S. government's job is to protect us, not bail us out of the mistakes that we've made, even though they do this all the time. Not to paint the government as bunch of do gooders who have nothing but our best interest at mind. That's the second part of what I'm saying. You can't expect a big lumbering giant to move efficiently, effectively, or gracefully. The government has done a lot already, including moving two active duty, combat ready Army divisions in to act as New Orleans own personal security detatchment, bending dozens of laws to do so. I know because that is how I ended up there. This is a situation were the church should have rocketed in to save the day. Some did a lot and a lot did some, but if you're going to blame FEMA then mabye you should do some more yourself.

[Pouye]

I was in New Orleans after the hurricane, and yes a lot of people's lives got jacked up. However, we do not live in a socialist country. The reality of the situation is that these people, especially in New Orleans, built their house on the "sand". The U.S. government's job is to protect us, not bail us out of the mistakes that we've made, even though they do this all the time. Not to paint the government as bunch of do gooders who have nothing but our best interest at mind. That's the second part of what I'm saying. You can't expect a big lumbering giant to move efficiently, effectively, or gracefully. The government has done a lot already, including moving two active duty, combat ready Army divisions in to act as New Orleans own personal security detatchment, bending dozens of laws to do so. I know because that is how I ended up there. This is a situation were the church should have rocketed in to save the day. Some did a lot and a lot did some, but if you're going to blame FEMA then mabye you should do some more yourself.

You have some very valid arguments here, but I don't think we are blaming FEMA. I think people are simply wanting them to give the money they already have set aside to give. Red tape is keeping the money from getting where they agree it should go.

I'm with you that people shouldn't expect to be bailed out by the government. Churches and charity organizations have (and continue to) helped out a bunch. Some people have money in savings and can pick up the pieces. There were a lot of millionares in New Orleans, and not all of them lost everything. But there will be quite a few people who just need a bit of help to get back on their feet again. Some of these people have family who can help them do this. Others have friends who can help. But some from the lowest classes (especially immigrants) just do not have the networks available to them to recover, and legitimately need some help.

Of course there are many that were bums before the hurricane and they see this as their big break in life.

Rock

[NewsboySteficek]

Im Not With You!!!!!