Why is God against homosexuality?

[Love Them Like Jesus]

why is God against gay people? my good guy friend is gay. and i know it's not right, and i think it's really gross!!, but why does God not like it? someone asked me thta today and i didn't know how to explain it to them. :o

[middletree]

God wants what's best for us. He loves us enough to tell us to keep from those activities which will bring harm to us.

He's not against gay people any more than He is against straight people. It's the action that is the problem.

Now, if your friend is not saved, it matters not if he is straight or gay. He i still separated from God.

[Love Them Like Jesus]

God wants what's best for us. He loves us enough to tell us to keep from those activities which will bring harm to us.

He's not against gay people any more than He is against straight people. It's the action that is the problem.

Now, if your friend is not saved, it matters not if he is straight or gay. He i still separated from God.no, he's not saved.:(..... and this might be alittle to much info, but he ain't a virgin.:( and let's just say, he didn't "do it" with a girl.:(:(:(

[larryl]

why is God against gay people? my good guy friend is gay. and i know it's not right, and i think it's really gross!!, but why does God not like it? someone asked me thta today and i didn't know how to explain it to them. :o


i think the simplest answer is that it's just not a part of his plan. why is God against fornication? why is he against adultery? (note i am saying the act, not the person, so he is not against gay people, he is against "gay-ness" or...homosexuality). all of the above are wrong because they do not fit into God's plan for us, as people.

i almost equate it with a parent saying "because i said so". there is a better reason, but we do not always know it, other than, we know (might not realize right then.....) that our parents want what is best for us. so does God.

now.......to an unbeliever, none of that means anything, because they could care less what God wants. so we should focus on the person, not the sin, when talking to them about God, or about salvation, etc....

[Love Them Like Jesus]

i think the simplest answer is that it's just not a part of his plan. why is God against fornication? why is he against adultery? (note i am saying the act, not the person, so he is not against gay people, he is against "gay-ness" or...homosexuality). all of the above are wrong because they do not fit into God's plan for us, as people.

i almost equate it with a parent saying "because i said so". there is a better reason, but we do not always know it, other than, we know (might not realize right then.....) that are parents want what is best for us. so does God.

now.......to an unbeliever, none of that means anything, because they could care less what God wants. so we should focus on the person, not the sin, when talking to them about God, or about salvation, etc....that's what i meant.;) i know he isn't against him personally, just his homosexuality..... and is it true that God distoryed awhole city b/c He was mad that they were "gay"? my mom said He did so i dunno.....

[larryl]

here is the topical study from biblegateway.....

take a look at it...

biblegateway.com topical study (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019:1-29;%20Deuteronomy%2029:23 ;%20Isaiah%2013:19;%20Jer emiah%2049:18;50:40;&version=31;)

[Imwierdlikethat]

Well,

God loves him regardless of his sin. Why is it that it is a sin. I think it is because God intened for us to be fruitful. Why he said this is a sin? I do not ultimatly know I mean why did he say murder is a sin? It is just wrong it does not fit into Gods plan. However, the person is sill a part of gods creation yeah sure he is not perfect but let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

And yes God destroyed one (maybe two) cities (Sodom and Gomorrah I think) because of this sin. I know that is not how you spel gomorrah but it is kinda how it sounds.

[Healing Oil]

He's not against gay people (as Im sure someone has already mentioned, I would hope so) but he is against homosexuality.

He is against it because he did not make men to be this way.

It doesnt matter how nice of a gay man/woman someone is, they are still living in open sin.

[The Unknown Gomer]

*sneaks out of 'lurk-mode', posts quietly...*

...He is against it because he did not make men to be this way... :confused: Looking at this in its simplest terms, if God made everything (which He did), and some men/women ARE "that way" (which they are), would that not mean that He made them that way?

*... and sneaks right BACK into 'lurk-mode' and off into the night...*

[seeker]

God didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah just because the people were practicing homosexuality. It came down to the fact that both cities were so wicked and so covered with sin ie: murder, rape, worshiping false idols, etc that not one person could be found in them to sway God's wrath. For example take what is happening in N.O. with children being raped and killed and multiply that to every person in those cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and you will come to a little understanding of just how horrible those cities were.

On the next note, I believe that you should love you friend with all your heart. Don't preach to him about his sinfulness, because we all sin and in God's eyes all sin is the same. Show him Jesus by how you live. Was Jesus too good to go to a prostitutes house and dine? No. Jesus hung out with the lowest of lows, the dirtiest (both physically and spiritually) people and HE LOVED THEM! Do this for your friend and for yourself. The best way we can show God's love is to live it everyday. People will see that and respect you for it a whole lot more than you standing on a street corner preaching fire and brimstone to "the sinfull masses".

And something that comes to mind about why is homosexuality wrong is that God told Adam to be fruitfull and multiply and such, but that is impossible if you are gay. As of right now the only way a gay couple can have a child is by adoption, or artifical insemination, both which requre someone from the opposite sex. If everyone was gay the human race would vanish. So basically it comes down to going agiast God's design and deciding for ourselves what we think is best.

Hope that helps and remember that God is faithful even when we are not.

[Healing Oil]

sherwood- Do you believe people are born gay? I dont. We are made in God's perfect image. He knew us before we were in our mother's womb. I believe a man chooses to be gay. Homosexuality is a sin, and we choose to sin (Yes I know, we are born sinners). God knows we are going to sin. I do not believe we are born to a particular sin, but we are born in a world where we are going to sin.

But you can say that God is allowing men and women to be gay. There is alot of things God allows that I highly doubt He condones.

Let me add something as well. To be a christian means to be "Christ-like". To do as Christ would do, be as Christ is. Was/Is Jesus a homosexual?

I hope this helps you to see how I see it :)

[Unstereotypical]

Read Romans chapter 1. That should answer your question.

It's that simple.

[Gandalf]

I'm moving this to the Word forum, for discussion of the Biblical perspective on homosexual (and I suppose maybe other) perversions. May be a little too much for the Zone.

Good job so far of everyone keeping it clean and calm; let's remember to stick to the topic and keep it that way :) Thanks!

[middletree]

if God made everything (which He did), and some men/women ARE "that way" (which they are), would that not mean that He made them that way?

God did not make anyone gay. The supposed biological causes that you hear people talking about have no backing scientifically. Studies have shown some biological differences between gay and straight men, but they may very well be the result of, not the cause of, homosexual behavior. In other words, there's nothing genetic about it.

However, many studies have shown that homosexuals are likely to have experienced trauma, abandonment, or abuse in early childhood, and many, many gay men had this in common: a domineering mother and week, passive, or absent father.

These studies just back up the bible. Parents sin against a child, and they cause the child the stumble. When this happens, the parents are in for some very harsh judgment from God. But the child who grows up to be the gay adult still has to take responsibility for his behavior, and call upon the Lord for strength to avoid temptation, and more importantly, call upon God for healing and restoration.

[Love Them Like Jesus]

God didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah just because the people were practicing homosexuality. It came down to the fact that both cities were so wicked and so covered with sin ie: murder, rape, worshiping false idols, etc that not one person could be found in them to sway God's wrath. For example take what is happening in N.O. with children being raped and killed and multiply that to every person in those cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and you will come to a little understanding of just how horrible those cities were.

On the next note, I believe that you should love you friend with all your heart. Don't preach to him about his sinfulness, because we all sin and in God's eyes all sin is the same. Show him Jesus by how you live. Was Jesus too good to go to a prostitutes house and dine? No. Jesus hung out with the lowest of lows, the dirtiest (both physically and spiritually) people and HE LOVED THEM! Do this for your friend and for yourself. The best way we can show God's love is to live it everyday. People will see that and respect you for it a whole lot more than you standing on a street corner preaching fire and brimstone to "the sinfull masses".

And something that comes to mind about why is homosexuality wrong is that God told Adam to be fruitfull and multiply and such, but that is impossible if you are gay. As of right now the only way a gay couple can have a child is by adoption, or artifical insemination, both which requre someone from the opposite sex. If everyone was gay the human race would vanish. So basically it comes down to going agiast God's design and deciding for ourselves what we think is best.

Hope that helps and remember that God is faithful even when we are not.yeah it helped.:) thanks y'all!!;)

[cheewiee]

To look at how God see's Homosexuality we must step back first and look at Sex. God created Man, he gave Man dominion over the earth, and then relized that he was lonly without Companion, so he Brought Eve forth FROM Adam. He created her with her Biological Organs to compliment Adams.. God Created for Adam (Man) the perfect mate (Female). So anything else is not perfect.

God then in his infinate wisdom (Thank you God!) Made sex pleasurable, so that Men and Women could use this to draw them closer together. This intimacy was designed to bring Husband and Wife Together, as one flesh.
This Intimacy was patterned after worship (Read Song of Solomon for reference)

Man after the fall perverted all sorts of things. Sexual intimacy is one of those things.

Because homosexuality is pervision of God's creation, you could see why he does not like it, especialy when you take into account that the intimacy sex causes is a pattern after the Intimacy created within Worship.

Finaly, while people don't make an active choice to be a homosexual, they have made individual choices that have led them down that particular road. There is freedom from it.

But homosexuality is not a uniqe sin, it is simply sin, Sometimes as believers in our own sin we don't relize that God hates ALL sin, because sin seperates us from him. If we had greater revelation of that I believe the church would be a much holier church than it is today. But that is another topic for another thread.

[SinnerSaint]

God hates all sinners gay or straight that is why he sends sinners to hell and not just their sin. But the good news is

Rom 5:10:
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[mat1583]

God hates all sinners gay or straight that is why he sends sinners to hell and not just their sin. But the good news is

Rom 5:10:

"God hates all sinners".

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight . Can you back that up scripturally?

-washboard

[Musicdude]

It's been taught to me this way.

With the creation of Adam and Eve, God set up the system (or divine institution) of marriage. Divine institutions are systems by which believers and unbelievers can have freedom, prosperity and everything else that is require for a city or nation to have the ability to spread the gospel freely, with no obstructions. Marriage was established and designed to be one man and one woman, with the man being the authority in the relationship. The man has his responsiblities and the woman has her's. If they both fulfill their duties which include raising children and instilling morals and virtues to them, the divine institution of the family operates at peak effeciency.

Homosexuality, adultery, fornication, pre-marital sex, and a long list of other sins distort this divine institution. They alter the system that God designed. This ultimately will not work, and the more prevalent these things get in a nation the closer the nation gets to divine discipline and then dispertion.

God doesn't single-out homosexuality as being worse than any other sin. He is opposed to any sin, and any distortion of His divine institutions.

[middletree]

"God hates all sinners".

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight . Can you back that up scripturally?

-washboard
Well, it was backed up in that verse, when it says that we were God's enemies. It is now incumbent upon you to find verses that support the idea that God loves all people, not just saved ones. And you have to support it with Scripture, not personal philosophy.

[cheewiee]

Well, it was backed up in that verse, when it says that we were God's enemies. It is now incumbent upon you to find verses that support the idea that God loves all people, not just saved ones. And you have to support it with Scripture, not personal philosophy.

Well, Doesn't the bible command us to love our Enemies?

[Becca]

ok ya know how you said " hes not a virgin" and you now think hes not saved well thats not true. God loves us even when we do bad things. he may be dissapointed in us but he'll never stop loving us. my best friend i gay to but he is the best catholic person i have ever met. my friend who used to be a cutter/ body seller (had sex for money) has now converted and has asked God to forgive her of her sins, and over the years she is starting to really feel at home in church.
the point is we are all a little part of God, even gay people. He loves each and everyone of us with the same love and compassion as His Son our Lord Jesus Christ. as long as you ask for forgivness you will be healed. :D

[seeker]

God hates all sinners gay or straight that is why he sends sinners to hell and not just their sin.

Even though we were enemies, that doesn't mean God hated us. The two are a seperate issue. If God hated us, then one, that would mean he hates His creation, and two he would not have sent His son to die for us. I think you are reading too much into that particular scripture.

There is a scripture in the NT that I can't find right now,that I believe goes something like: While we were still sinners, God in His grace chose to forgive us.

To me that means that even before we repented or wanted to be forgiven, or could have been forgiven, God chose to forgive us. Hence, He loved us. God hates sin, not the sinner.

[Musicdude]

God hates sin, not sinners.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Does this sound like something someone would do for someone they hate?
As verse 3:18 says, God does not send unbelievers to Hell. They send themselves becuase of their unbelief. They are born condemned, but Christ offers them a means for redemption.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Oh, boy. Here I am again. I kind of made an agreement with myself when I first signed up to the boards that I would NEVER get into this particular subject here... and well here I be. Oh my. :eek: Sorry, self. ;)

Do you believe people are born gay?...We are made in God's perfect image.Actually, yeah, I do. I honestly don't think it's something that if people had a choice that they would CHOOSE to be, given how difficult a lifestyle it must be. I can't imagine that someone would go out of their way to be a target of hate groups and religions and what all, when it would be so much easier to be straight.

So as such, regarding being made in God's perfect image, if I believe that people are born that way, it would follow that being gay does not make them IMperfect, just different.

And regarding there being no scientific basis to back up the fact that people are born that way, I can't help but be reminded that entire religions are based on ideas that are based on faith and have very little actual scientific facts to back them up. And that science and religion are very often at ODDS with one another.

And just to give an example of the "born as" vs "environmental causes". I've got 5 cousins on one side of my family - well, one was adopted, so for the sake of arguement, that makes 4 blood cousins. All grew up in the same household, in the same positive environment. 2 of the 4 turned out to be gay, and I don't believe that they CHOSE to be that way, or that environmental factors caused it, otherwise all 4 (or adding back my adopted cousin, since she grew up there too, make that all five), they were simply born that way.

IMHO. :)

[Howlin' Wolf]

i agree with sherwood. we may be created in God's Image, but every cell in our body is infected with sin. if we are born sinners, then why is it a stretch to say that people are born gay? lust is lust, whether its after the same sex or not.


Does this sound like something someone would do for someone they hate?
As verse 3:18 says, God does not send unbelievers to Hell. They send themselves becuase of their unbelief. They are born condemned, but Christ offers them a means for redemption.

if one is born condemned, then how does he send himself to hell?

and the john verses do not support the idea that God loves sinner....by any means. what those verses say is that the God of the Jews has sent the messiah to save men from every, tribe, tongue, and nation. that salvation is available to gentiles. an idea that i'm sure nicodemus had trouble reconciling.


There is a scripture in the NT that I can't find right now,that I believe goes something like: While we were still sinners, God in His grace chose to forgive us.

To me that means that even before we repented or wanted to be forgiven, or could have been forgiven, God chose to forgive us. Hence, He loved us. God hates sin, not the sinner.

so every single person has been forgiven despite repentance and belief? thats interesting. and abberant to orthodox doctrine.

[cheewiee]

I honestly don't think it's something that if people had a choice that they would CHOOSE to be, given how difficult a lifestyle it must be.

It does not make any difference...

Let me show you a LOOSE example of how choices can affect somone..

Mr A. is in Jail, Mr A. did not choose to be in jail.. He simply made a series of wrong choices that wound him in jail.. No one would choose to be in Jail would they?

So let us look at the Choices Mr A. made that put him in his current situation..

Mr A. Stays up too late on Monday Night.. (Wrong choice #1)

Mr A. Oversleeps on Tuesday Morning.. (Wrong choice #2)

Mr A. then speeds to work on Tuesday Morning to keep from being late (Wrong Choice #3)

Mr A Gets a Speeding Ticket on his way to work..

(Keep in mind Mr A. did not choose to get a speeding ticket.. but he chose to engage in behavior that led him to getting the speeding ticket..)

Mr A. forgets about said speeding ticket and does not pay by the appropiate time. (Wrong Choice #4)

Mr A. is late again to work and speeds (Wrong choice #5)

Mr A gets pulled over AGAIN, and the Policeman discovers that Mr A. is driving on a suspended license and takes Mr A. to jail.

Mr A. did not ask, choose or even want to goto jail.. however he made choices along the way that brought that on him.. The same thing goes for homosexuality.. The same thing goes for Poverty.. The smae thing goes for any bondage that keeps man from walking in fulfilment with the redemptive work of Calvary.

[The Unknown Gomer]

But he's still making all the choices that put him there. He had the choice to oversleep, speed, not pay his ticket, etc. He's got the capability to choose all those things.

I'm saying that IF the gay population had a choice, would they choose to be that way, and I'm sure the answer would be no. That's IF they had a choice.

I just don't think they do.

[Musicdude]

if one is born condemned, then how does he send himself to hell?

Because Adam was not born condemned. He chose to sin.
And because we are all descendents of Adam, we were condemned as well.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

and the john verses do not support the idea that God loves sinner....by any means. what those verses say is that the God of the Jews has sent the messiah to save men from every, tribe, tongue, and nation. that salvation is available to gentiles. an idea that i'm sure nicodemus had trouble reconciling.

So God sending His Son as a sacrifice for all the sins of all mankind (believers and unbelievers alike) is not an expression of His love? What is then?

You don't like that example, no problem. How about this one?

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[SinnerSaint]

Rom 9:11-14
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

You asked for a verse that explicitly states that God hates. Here you go. By the way the word used for enemy in Romans 5:10 means one that is hated.

Yes John 3:16-17 is the good news that Christ came to reconcile(btw friends do not need to be reconciled) the world(meaning both gentiles and jews that is anyone who believes this good news)

[SinnerSaint]

btw this is not either/or. God is both loving and wrathful.
also you are right God calls us to love our enemies but that doesn't mean that God is required to love his. on the same token, it is wrong for us to glorify ourselves, but it is not wrong for God to glorify Himself.

[Musicdude]

You asked for a verse that explicitly states that God hates. Here you go. By the way the word used for enemy in Romans 5:10 means one that is hated.

The unbeliever is the enemy of God because he hates God, not becuase God hates him. There is hate their, but it's on the part of the unbeliever.

From Romans 5:10
echthros
Thayer Definition:
1) hated, odious, hateful
2) hostile, hating, and opposing another
2a) used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
2a1) opposing (God) in the mind
2a2) a man that is hostile
2a3) a certain enemy
2a4) the hostile one
2a5) the devil who is the most bitter enemy of the divine government
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)
Citing in TDNT: 2:811, 285


In my opnion there is no clearer example of God's love towards unbelievers than the verse that you quoted.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

If God loved you so much as an unbeliever that He sent His Son to die in order to reconcile you to God, then how much more does He love you, now that you are one of His children?

[cheewiee]

But he's still making all the choices that put him there. He had the choice to oversleep, speed, not pay his ticket, etc. He's got the capability to choose all those things.

I'm saying that IF the gay population had a choice, would they choose to be that way, and I'm sure the answer would be no. That's IF they had a choice.

I just don't think they do.

Your missing the point.. At some pont Mr A. had the opportunity to advoid Jail..

Also none of the discisions above alone are WORTHY of sending somone to Jail.. but together it is..

Homosexuals have had the opportunity throughout their lives to avoid their sexuality, however driven by lusts of the flesh they are now where they are at.. Of course they don't wake up one day and think "being gay sounds like fun.. let me try that out".. no that is silly.. But it is small discision that they make throughout their lives that get them to that place.. weather it is starting out by looking at porn.. or expermenting with friends.. or whatever.. It is small discisions that lead them to the path of destruction that their lifestyle is headed towards..

[The Unknown Gomer]

But it is small discision that they make throughout their lives that get them to that place.. weather it is starting out by looking at porn.. or expermenting with friends.. or whatever.. It is small discisions that lead them to the path of destruction that their lifestyle is headed towards...Decisions that are made based on the way they've been wired since birth. Yes, they might try out all those things, but if they're not predisposed (is that the word I'm after?) towards being gay to begin with, doing all that stuff is NOT going to convert them and make them that way.

Homosexuals have had the opportunity throughout their lives to avoid their sexuality I just picked up on this. That almost sounds to me like that's another way of saying that being gay is just the way they are. And if it's just the way they are, that's saying they're born that way, God made them that way, and if that's the case, why should they have to deny who they are?

Oy, my head, I feel like I'm going around in circles here...

[Howlin' Wolf]

Because Adam was not born condemned. He chose to sin.
And because we are all descendents of Adam, we were condemned as well.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.



So God sending His Son as a sacrifice for all the sins of all mankind (believers and unbelievers alike) is not an expression of His love? What is then?

You don't like that example, no problem. How about this one?

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

are you a universalist? do the promises of God written by paul to the ephesians apply to every single person???

[cheewiee]

Decisions that are made based on the way they've been wired since birth. Yes, they might try out all those things, but if they're not predisposed (is that the word I'm after?) towards being gay to begin with, doing all that stuff is NOT going to convert them and make them that way.

How do you know?

You do not know what is in mens hearts, Only God knows that.. If you honestly belive that God would make somone homosexual.. then you are by default one of the most Calivinistic persons I have ever had the pleasure to debate with online..

[Howlin' Wolf]

How do you know?

You do not know what is in mens hearts, Only God knows that.. If you honestly belive that God would make somone homosexual.. then you are by default one of the most Calivinistic persons I have ever had the pleasure to debate with online..


did God not make you a sinner? or were you born with perfection, yet chose to sin?

[Musicdude]

are you a universalist? do the promises of God written by paul to the ephesians apply to every single person???

I'm not familiar with that term.

I do believe that the principles found in scripture apply to all generations.
And with regard to Christ dying for the sins of the world, I believe that He died for the sins of every man or woman that ever lived and ever will live. So, yes, I believe this applies to me personally.

[Musicdude]

did God not make you a sinner? or were you born with perfection, yet chose to sin?

God created free will. Man chose to use that free will to sin. If God had forced man to sin or forced him to be righteous, then man wouldn't have truly had free will in the first place.

[cheewiee]

did God not make you a sinner? or were you born with perfection, yet chose to sin?

While I was born a sinner, I was not born in bondage to any particular sin..

If you belive Homosexuals were born that way under that logic, then you should believe the same for Pedaphiles, murders, Rapists, theifs, and the like..

[Howlin' Wolf]

I'm not familiar with that term.

I do believe that the principles found in scripture apply to all generations.
And with regard to Christ dying for the sins of the world, I believe that He died for the sins of every man or woman that ever lived and ever will live. So, yes, I believe this applies to me personally.
a universalist believes that God will save everybody

and i wont debate you on universal atonement. not here. i wont hijack this thread to read more out of context prooftexts. however, none of the verses you have posted proves that God loves everybody. they prove that God loves those who follow him and walk with him in faith. they dont prove that God loves the non-believer.

[Howlin' Wolf]

While I was born a sinner, I was not born in bondage to any particular sin..

If you belive Homosexuals were born that way under that logic, then you should believe the same for Pedaphiles, murders, Rapists, theifs, and the like..

you were born with the capability of being all the things you listed. i believe that we are born with a pre-disposition to particular sins. science backs me up on that. look at hemaphrodites.

[cheewiee]

a universalist believes that God will save everybody

and i wont debate you on universal atonement. not here. i wont hijack this thread to read more out of context prooftexts. however, none of the verses you have posted proves that God loves everybody. they prove that God loves those who follow him and walk with him in faith. they dont prove that God loves the non-believer.


I don't see where he belives in Unversal Atonement, he just doesnt subscribe to the Calivinist view point of predestination..

But In order to belive that God would create someone a homosexual you must belive in the doctorine of Predestination.

[Musicdude]

however, none of the verses you have posted proves that God loves everybody. they prove that God loves those who follow him and walk with him in faith. they dont prove that God loves the non-believer.

Jesus did not give His life for you when you were following Him and walking with Him in faith. He gave His life for you when you were yet an enemy of God, and condemned because of your transgressions. This is the love of God toward sinful man.

If you choose to take some other meaning from that scripture, that's up to you. That's what it means to me. I thought it was pretty straight-forward.

[The Unknown Gomer]

How do you know?

You do not know what is in mens hearts, Only God knows that.. If you honestly belive that God would make somone homosexual.. then you are by default one of the most Calivinistic persons I have ever had the pleasure to debate with online..Neither do you, really. Which is kind of why I inititially avoided this entire debate in the first place. We DON'T know and can go round and round in circles and bang heads over this until the end of time and STILL not agree. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe and I don't see a discussion here on a music board changing either of our minds. :)

>> most Calivinistic persons

:confused: :o Sorry, at the risk of sounding like an absolute idiot, that's completely greek to me. I've seen it bandied about, but "The Word" forum is NOT usually the place where I hang out, so I've never gotten into specific classifications of different beliefs... Definition, please? Before I become offended ;) I probably need to know what it means.

[Musicdude]

you were born with the capability of being all the things you listed. i believe that we are born with a pre-disposition to particular sins. science backs me up on that. look at hemaphrodites.

Just because you might have tendencies toward a particular sin, does not mean that you are incapable of resisting that temptation.

[Musicdude]

a universalist believes that God will save everybody

In that case, I am definitely not a universalist.

[Howlin' Wolf]

God created free will. Man chose to use that free will to sin. If God had forced man to sin or forced him to be righteous, then man wouldn't have truly had free will in the first place.

sure he did. free will for all man is a myth. if man is born a slave to sin, then his will isnt free. its bound to sin. free will only exists in the lives of those free from that bondage of sin. those who have been redeemed


Just because you might have tendencies toward a particular sin, does not mean that you are incapable of resisting that temptation.

nobody said they couldnt resist

[cheewiee]

you were born with the capability of being all the things you listed. i believe that we are born with a pre-disposition to particular sins. science backs me up on that. look at hemaphrodites.


Hermaphodites are essentialy a genetic flaw or birth defect and it has nothing to do with homosexuality.. Hermaphodites vary from being Geneticly one sex with the organs of the opposite, or Geneticly both sex with organs of both sexes..

A homosexual Male is still a genetic Male with the Biological organs of the Male.

Now I would like for you to show me scripture that backs up your claim that we are born with a pre-disposition to particualr sins.

[Musicdude]

sure he did. free will for all man is a myth. if man is born a slave to sin, then his will isnt free. its bound to sin. free will only exists in the lives of those free from that bondage of sin. those who have been redeemed
So you believe ultimately God has already decided the course of your life and walks you along a stage like a puppet?


nobody said they couldnt resist

You said that. You said they were born gay and had no choice. I say, at most they might have a tendancy in their sin-nature towards sexual perversion, but also have the ability to resist the temptation to give in to that tendancy.

[Howlin' Wolf]

>> most Calivinistic persons

:confused: :o Sorry, at the risk of sounding like an absolute idiot, that's completely greek to me. I've seen it bandied about, but "The Word" forum is NOT usually the place where I hang out, so I've never gotten into specific classifications of different beliefs... Definition, please? Before I become offended ;) I probably need to know what it means.

a calvinist is one that believes that God is in control of everything, including the salvation of the church.

but cheewie used the term as a derogatory term. in which i would love to start a thread and debunk her entire theology

[cheewiee]

Neither do you, really. Which is kind of why I inititially avoided this entire debate in the first place. We DON'T know and can go round and round in circles and bang heads over this until the end of time and STILL not agree. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe and I don't see a discussion here on a music board changing either of our minds. :)

>> most Calivinistic persons

:confused: :o Sorry, at the risk of sounding like an absolute idiot, that's completely greek to me. I've seen it bandied about, but "The Word" forum is NOT usually the place where I hang out, so I've never gotten into specific classifications of different beliefs... Definition, please? Before I become offended ;) I probably need to know what it means.

Calvinists belive in the Soverignty of God's will over mans.. God Chose who he will allow into heaven, and who he will damn to eternal judgement.. Because of that belive there is the natural extension of Eternal Security.. Once Saved Always saved, because if God Chose you to be saved, no one could take you from his hand.

I have a friend who is a former homosexual, he works with Exodus International.. He know's the homosexual talk.. the homosexual belief system and such.. He was even a homosexual christian for a time until he relized that the beliefs were incompatiable..

When he reconciled his life with his beliefs, THAT is when he saw through the lie of being 'born' that way. He saw the moments of descisions that would dominate years of his life.. Of course he freely admits a homosexual just doesn't 'choose' to be gay, rather it is a path of wrong turns that led him there.. he was trapped in the bondage of the sin, and it was not untill he HONESTLY tried to reconcile his faith whith his sexuality that he really was able to grasp the flawed logic of being 'born gay'..

[Musicdude]

but cheewie used the term as a derogatory term. in which i would love to start a thread and debunk her entire theology

At that, I'm finished debating with you. It's been interesting.

[cheewiee]

a calvinist is one that believes that God is in control of everything, including the salvation of the church.

but cheewie used the term as a derogatory term. in which i would love to start a thread and debunk her entire theology

It was not ment as a derogatory term.. It was simply the truth.. If God Makes somone a homosexual.. and God condemns homosexuals to hell, God has in essense condemned that person to hell.. How is that not calvinistic?

[Howlin' Wolf]

So you believe ultimately God has already decided the course of your life and walks you along a stage like a puppet?


You said that. You said they were born gay and had no choice. I say, at most they might have a tendancy in their sin-nature towards sexual perversion, but also have the ability to resist the temptation to give in to that tendancy.
i believe God had chosen before time, to save me, sanctify me, and justify me. since i cannot save myself, he was the one who saved me and chose me. in freeing me from the bondage of sin, i have the free will to do and choose whatever i want. with that being said, God's grace is amazing, so i'd be a fool not to follow. so, no. God is not my puppet master. but God is in control. he leads and guides me. he opens the doors that he wants me to walk through.

and per your second question. i said they were born gay. i never said that they didnt have a choice. but a man that is not redeemed by the blood of christ will always choose to follow his sin nature

[Howlin' Wolf]

It was not ment as a derogatory term.. It was simply the truth.. If God Makes somone a homosexual.. and God condemns homosexuals to hell, God has in essense condemned that person to hell.. How is that not calvinistic?
for one, God doesnt condemn hoimosexuals to hell. you need to quit following fred phelps and pick up a bible.

secondly, if you replace "homosexuals" with "sinners" in your statement, how is that not scriptural?

[cheewiee]

how is that not scriptural?

How is what not scriptual? Calvinisim?

That would need to be addressed in another thread, that I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into this week... Perhaps next.

[Howlin' Wolf]

How is what not scriptual? Calvinisim?

That would need to be addressed in another thread, that I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into this week... Perhaps next.


It was not ment as a derogatory term.. It was simply the truth.. If God Makes somone a "sinner".. and God condemns "sinners" to hell, God has in essense condemned that person to hell.. How is that not calvinistic?
how is this statement unbiblical?

[cheewiee]

for one, God doesnt condemn hoimosexuals to hell. you need to quit following fred phelps and pick up a bible.

secondly, if you replace "homosexuals" with "sinners" in your statement, how is that not scriptural?

Homosexuals are sinners are they not? They are engaging in a behavior that is contrary to the word of God, and God's Design.

Somone in unrepentant sin is going to be condemed to hell there is no short way around that unless you decide that the Bible is not the Inerrant word of God..

And if you do not belive that the bible is the inerrant word of God.. then well We are done..

I do not follow Fred Phelps.. and the fact that you mention his name to me says that you tend to be on the more liberal side of Christianity.. because most evangelicals don't know who the guy is..

With all of that said.. No where in scripture does it say that we come out of the womb predisposed to one particular sin or another.. or to put it another way.. We are born in sin, but not in bondage to a sin.

[Musicdude]

God Chose who he will allow into heaven, and who he will damn to eternal judgement.. Because of that belive there is the natural extension of Eternal Security.. Once Saved Always saved, because if God Chose you to be saved, no one could take you from his hand.

That's not always the case. My church teaches eternal security, but not predestination. The eternal security is not based on the idea that God chose who would be saved many eons ago. But instead it is based on the concept of God's grace. "By grace are you saved." You did nothing to earn salvation, so therefore you can do nothing to revoke it. Then there's the genetics arguement. Once you are saved, you are a child of God. God himself cannot remove you from His family, any more that you can remove yourself from your earthly family. Your bloodline is what it is, regardless of how you feel about it.

Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

This is why we are born condemned. Because of Adam, not because of God. Its explained about twenty different ways in the surrounding verses and they all mean the same thing.

Through Adam, you are condemned, but through Christ, you are justified.

However, believers have been redeemed by the blood of Christ, which is unperishable.

knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Homosexuals are sinners are they not? They are engaging in a behavior that is contrary to the word of God, and God's Design.

Somone in unrepentant sin is going to be condemed to hell there is no short way around that unless you decide that the Bible is not the Inerrant word of God..

And if you do not belive that the bible is the inerrant word of God.. then well We are done..

I do not follow Fred Phelps.. and the fact that you mention his name to me says that you tend to be on the more liberal side of Christianity.. because most evangelicals don't know who the guy is..

With all of that said.. No where in scripture does it say that we come out of the womb predisposed to one particular sin or another.. or to put it another way.. We are born in sin, but not in bondage to a sin.

i love this. first, you make a statement about how homosexuals just choose that behavior(which some do), then when sherwood says he believes that people can be born gay, you call him a calvinist. then you tell me that homosexuals are condemned to hell? then you back track and say "unrepetant homosexuals" are the ones condemned. then you question whether or not i believe in errancy of scripture because i called you out on your statement of homosexuals being condemned. you make a comment that would make fred phelps of being proud, but accuse me of being liberal because i know who he is.

i'm gonna love debating with you. it will take no work at all. i'll just watch you chase your tail and run around in circles, resorting to assumptions and ad homs to make 3 or 4 different points

truly unbelievable

[cheewiee]

Because I don't have my bible in front of me.. nor the time to make LONG posts right now.. I will simply say.. Historicly Calvin (although many of the other reformers believed it as well) really put forth the docterine of Eternal Securty as an extenstion of Predestination. The reasoning behind Predestination and even Eternal Security was to correct the errant teachings of the Catholic Church on Salvation..

[middletree]

cheewiee:

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am very conservative, and I know who Phelps is

[The Unknown Gomer]

...then when sherwood says he believes that people can be born gay, you call him a calvinist...Uhh... best make that "she" and "her", thank you. (Really MUST change that screen name for the new boards! :rolleyes: )

And no, now that I know what it is, thank you, I am definitely not a Calvinist.

~~ Karen ~~

[cheewiee]

you make a statement about how homosexuals just choose that behavior(which some do),

I never said homosexuals choose that behavior.. I said homosexuals make choices that lead them into that bondage.. If you take that to mean 'People Choose to be gay' that is your own shortsightedness..

then when sherwood says he believes that people can be born gay, you call him a calvinist. then you tell me that homosexuals are condemned to hell? then you back track and say "unrepetant homosexuals" are the ones condemned.

The bible teaches that unrepentant sinners (What does repentance mean? look it up it will be good for ya!) goto hell.. The Bible Teaches that Homosexuality is a sin.. So if somone is engaged in unrepentant homosexual activity they are going to hell.. That isn't Fred Phelps.. that is the word of God.. It is sad.. and it is not different than anyone engaging in unrepentant behavior... Anyone engaging in Unrepentant lying.. unrepentant stealing and such..
then you question whether or not i believe in errancy of scripture because i called you out on your statement of homosexuals being condemned.

Nice way to divert attention and not really answer the Question.. Do you belive that the Bible is the inerrant word of God?

you make a comment that would make fred phelps of being proud, but accuse me of being liberal because i know who he is.

Because the only people I know who happen to know who this nutjob is are liberal homosexuals...

i'm gonna love debating with you. it will take no work at all. i'll just watch you chase your tail and run around in circles, resorting to assumptions and ad homs to make 3 or 4 different points

truly unbelievable

Debate.. you mean simply sidestep answering questions by diverting attenion and flashing red hearings... no.. we wont be debating..

[Musicdude]

Because I don't have my bible in front of me.. nor the time to make LONG posts right now.. I will simply say.. Historicly Calvin (although many of the other reformers believed it as well) really put forth the docterine of Eternal Securty as an extenstion of Predestination. The reasoning behind Predestination and even Eternal Security was to correct the errant teachings of the Catholic Church on Salvation..

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who are saved do not come unto judgement. If you as a believer, will not have to be judged for your sins, then how do you lose your salvation, if not by sin? Christ specifically says that those who believe will not be judged.

[cheewiee]

cheewiee:

Hate to burst your bubble, but I am very conservative, and I know who Phelps is


I have NEVER heard of the guy untill someone at TBBS pointed him out to me...

[cheewiee]

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who are saved do not come unto judgement. If you as a believer, will not have to be judged for your sins, then how do you lose your salvation, if not by sin? Christ specifically says that those who believe will not be judged.

Those who lose belief..

I have a friend who I grew up with, believed all his life until after his mother died.. It shook is faith up a bit.. then His Grandfather died.. and since that day the guy has been an Athiest... He does not believe in God any longer, he no longer belives he needs redemption for his sins, even though 5 years ago he did..

So would you say he was
A. Saved and lost his salvation
B. Still Saved
C. Although Claiming salvation he was never truly Saved

It has to be one of the above.

[larryl]

wow.....you 3 (or is it 4?) are having like 5 different arguments here.......

even i can't keep up, and i spend a lot of time in this forum

tulip....i saw you excercise restraint in trying not to hi-jack the thread....nicely done, sir

[Musicdude]

So would you say he was
A. Saved and lost his salvation
B. Still Saved
C. Although Claiming salvation he was never truly Saved

It has to be one of the above.

B. Still saved, just doesn't know it.


I'm sorry, but there are too many verses that talk about "you may know" that you have eternal life. If there is any way that you could lose your eternal life (which I think kind of defeats the meaning of eternal) they you could never be really sure that you had it. Well, Christ says that if you believe then you have eternal life. But your salvation is not based on your belief. In other words, your belief is not what saves you. God's grace saves you. If your salvation depended upon your faith (which is strong sometimes and weak at other times) it would be perishable.
But instead, your salvation is depenant only on the grace of God which never fails, through the blood of Christ, which is imperishable.

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Again, your redemption is based on Christ's perfect sacrifice, not on your faith. Your faith is merely the means by which you accept the free gift. Once it is given, it cannot be revoked.

Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Faith is works. So to believe that your salvation depends on faith, is to believe that your salvation depends on works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It takes faith to accept the gift of salvation. But faith is not what saves you.

And just one more verse.

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[cheewiee]

At this point we need to start another thread.. because this one is going OFF topic.. And we need to be thoughtful of those who started this thread.

[Musicdude]

At this point we need to start another thread.. because this one is going OFF topic.. And we need to be thoughtful of those who started this thread.

I agree, but I've pretty much already said everything I have to say on the subject, so I don't care about starting another thread.

Good points, by the way. I'm always interested to hear other people's perspectives. You present yours in a respectful way. Thanks.

[Howlin' Wolf]

i havent diverted anything. this isnt a thread about inerrancy, so quit trying to hijack it! this is a thread about homosexuality and God's view of sin and sinners. you are the one twisting things and making assumptions. so lets revist some of your moronic attempts at hijacking

Mr A. did not ask, choose or even want to goto jail.. however he made choices along the way that brought that on him.. The same thing goes for homosexuality.. The same thing goes for Poverty
didnt realize poverty was a sin.

You do not know what is in mens hearts, Only God knows that.. If you honestly belive that God would make somone homosexual.. then you are by default one of the most Calivinistic persons I have ever had the pleasure to debate with online..
here you assume that Calvinists believe that God is the author of sin. which is why you called sherwood a calvinist. and you meant it as something that is either heretical or misguided and beneath you and your theology

so you hijack the thread to make this into a cavinist/arminian thread.

If you belive Homosexuals were born that way under that logic, then you should believe the same for Pedaphiles, murders, Rapists, theifs, and the like..
this is at best a stretch. another assumption. there are genes that determine attraction. in the same way, there are people born with both parts. in addition to that, man is born into the bondage of sin


But In order to belive that God would create someone a homosexual you must belive in the doctorine of Predestination.
the doctrine of pre-destination has nothing to do with whether or not people can be born gay. it has to do with man being born into the bondage of sin. just because you like to discriminate between sins doesnt mean God does

I do not follow Fred Phelps.. and the fact that you mention his name to me says that you tend to be on the more liberal side of Christianity.. because most evangelicals don't know who the guy is..

Because I don't have my bible in front of me.. nor the time to make LONG posts right now.. I will simply say.. Historicly Calvin (although many of the other reformers believed it as well) really put forth the docterine of Eternal Securty as an extenstion of Predestination. The reasoning behind Predestination and even Eternal Security was to correct the errant teachings of the Catholic Church on Salvation..
you'd be wise to read a book on the reformation. seriously

The bible teaches that unrepentant sinners (What does repentance mean? look it up it will be good for ya!) goto hell.. The Bible Teaches that Homosexuality is a sin.. So if somone is engaged in unrepentant homosexual activity they are going to hell.. That isn't Fred Phelps.. that is the word of God.. It is sad.. and it is not different than anyone engaging in unrepentant behavior... Anyone engaging in Unrepentant lying.. unrepentant stealing and such..
so i suppose this means that if you sin, then die in the next instance, you arent going to heaven. that is a works based religion and not found anywhere in scripture.

Because the only people I know who happen to know who this nutjob is are liberal homosexuals
then the fact that middletree and i know phelps means that you dont really know much of anything.

[OnePureAndHolyPassion]

Hey guys,

Please keep all discussion in this thread civil and respectful. This excludes name calling and finger pointing.

Thanks,
Sarah

[OnePureAndHolyPassion]

At this point we need to start another thread.. because this one is going OFF topic.. And we need to be thoughtful of those who started this thread.

This sounds like a good idea. Don't forget that the original topic of this thread is "Why is God against homosexuality?"

[cheewiee]

i havent diverted anything. this isnt a thread about inerrancy, so quit trying to hijack it!

Errancy is at the very heart of homosexual docterine.. The Scripture MUST be errant for homosexuality for God to approve.. so no this is not off topic..

didnt realize poverty was a sin.

It is not a sin.. but it is a bondage..

here you assume that Calvinists believe that God is the author of sin. which is why you called sherwood a calvinist. and you meant it as something that is either heretical or misguided and beneath you and your theology so you hijack the thread to make this into a cavinist/arminian thread.

The very heart of Calvinisim is that God's will is sovereign over mans. The only Christian group that teaches homosexuality is sin, who also go along with the 'born that way' mentality are calvinists.. And IF you subscribe to calvinistic theology then that explanes the mentality, and I would understand where you are coming from.. But if you subscribe to arminian theology then it makes no sense that God would make somone a homosexual..

So that is why a discussion on calvinisim/arminianism is relevent

this is at best a stretch. another assumption. there are genes that determine attraction. in the same way, there are people born with both parts. in addition to that, man is born into the bondage of sin

True, but no where does the bible say that somone is born into the bondage of a particluar sin..

the doctrine of pre-destination has nothing to do with whether or not people can be born gay. it has to do with man being born into the bondage of sin. just because you like to discriminate between sins doesnt mean God does

Sure it does.. See above..

you'd be wise to read a book on the reformation. seriously

I have read several, I am very much into church history

so i suppose this means that if you sin, then die in the next instance, you arent going to heaven. that is a works based religion and not found anywhere in scripture.

No that means we are to strive to live a holy life.. and ALWAYS TURNING away from sin.. A homosexual living an active homosexual lifestyle has not turned away from sin.. Will that person goto Hell? I belive the bible says he will..

then the fact that middletree and i know phelps means that you dont really know much of anything.

And once again you end in a flame..

[middletree]

Errancy is at the very heart of homosexual docterine.. The Scripture MUST be errant for homosexuality for God to approve..


Not necessarily. Many people believe that we are reading the Scriptures wrong, and that this Greek or that Hebrew word means something other than garden-variety homosexual behavior. I obviously disagree, but the point is that they agree that Scripture gets the last word. They don't think the Bible has errors.



It is not a sin.. but it is a bondage..

You said this about poverty, and I strongly disagree.

True, but no where does the bible say that somone is born into the bondage of a particluar sin..

I cannot speak to homosexuality on that, but it has been proven very solidly that alcoholic tendencies, as well as addictive tendencies, are inherited biologically.

As I said earlier, I don't think that this has shown to be true with homosexuality, but your statement, if taken to be about sin in general, is incorrect.


No that means we are to strive to live a holy life.. and ALWAYS TURNING away from sin.. A homosexual living an active homosexual lifestyle has not turned away from sin.. Will that person goto Hell? I belive the bible says he will..

The first part of this paragraph I agree with. But not the hell part. I have known many, many Christians who have struggled with sexual sins, both gay and straight. They are not in danger of losing salvation. Please demonstrate the truth of your statement about Hell with a verse.

[cheewiee]

Not necessarily. Many people believe that we are reading the Scriptures wrong, and that this Greek or that Hebrew word means something other than garden-variety homosexual behavior. I obviously disagree, but the point is that they agree that Scripture gets the last word. They don't think the Bible has errors.

Are you sure about that? Most mainline denominations statement of faith do not implicitly state that the bible is inerant.. Those Denominations include Presbyterian, Lutherian, Episcopol, Methodists... These are the 4 denominations that are coming apart because of Homosexuality..

You said this about poverty, and I strongly disagree.
Well I respect your disagreement.. I am not claiming that it is a spiritual bondage, but it is a bondage that perputates itself thoughout generations... If you do not belive me look at the state of New Orleans..

I cannot speak to homosexuality on that, but it has been proven very solidly that alcoholic tendencies, as well as addictive tendencies, are inherited biologically. As I said earlier, I don't think that this has shown to be true with homosexuality, but your statement, if taken to be about sin in general, is incorrect.

Alcohol and drug abuse is a result of chemical addiction.. I have never seen any evidence that a mental addiction is inheritable.. Such as gambeling and such.. Not to mention there is no evidence that other type of abborant behavior is genetic.. (Murderous behavior.. and the like)

The first part of this paragraph I agree with. But not the hell part. I have known many, many Christians who have struggled with sexual sins, both gay and straight. They are not in danger of losing salvation. Please demonstrate the truth of your statement about Hell with a verse.

First off I am not talking about people struggling with sins.. I am talking about people who claim to be christians but continue to live in blaintent sin..

But I will get you those scriptures a little later because I have to get going..

[Consuming Fire]

Well,

God loves him regardless of his sin. Why is it that it is a sin. I think it is because God intened for us to be fruitful. Why he said this is a sin? I do not ultimatly know I mean why did he say murder is a sin? It is just wrong it does not fit into Gods plan. However, the person is sill a part of gods creation yeah sure he is not perfect but let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

And yes God destroyed one (maybe two) cities (Sodom and Gomorrah I think) because of this sin. I know that is not how you spel gomorrah but it is kinda how it sounds.

i also thought he killed them because of like melestaion. because i think im not quoeting or any thing. but i think it says in the bible that before the world is over that the world will be like sodom and gomorrah. i remember my mom talking about it be fore. i cant remember exactly. but yeah

[larryl]

Alcohol and drug abuse is a result of chemical addiction.. I have never seen any evidence that a mental addiction is inheritable.. Such as gambeling and such..
..


i need to touch on this......are you saying that homosexuality is a "mental addiction" and therefore cannot be hereditary?

or are you saying that alcoholism and drug addiction cannot be hereditary?

[larryl]

to get somewhat back on topic....

does anyone here really think God is more against homosexuality than any other sin?

or is the topic really is homosexuality a sin or not.....

either way, it seems we have drifted far from it.

[Healing Oil]

This thread got long but I stopped reading at the end of the 1st page. So I am just going to spring off some comments, or the ones that I remember. I think I will mostly address the "born gay" issue.

I believe the devil will lay his sin(s) of choice in our way. Some are tempted with drinking (note, I dont believe drinking is a sin, unless you are bound by it), porn, or homosexuality. Are we born bonded to alcoholism? Are we born bound by pornography? Do we come out of the womb ready to google under age nude girls? Do we come out of our mother's wombs ready to gamble what is left in our piggy banks down the toilet? No, of course not. So why should I believe that we come out of our mother's womb gay? I hate to mention this, but I was waching a few days a comedy sketch on HBO, I forgot his name but he made a pretty good point. He was talking about how he doesnt believe people are born gay. He then went on to act as a women in active labor. He is screaming "1, 2, 3, 4, 5!" and then he morphs into this flamboyant gay man snapping his finger and flopping his wrist with a peppy lisp saying "6, 7, 8! I just came out of the *blank* and I am never going back in"...Not entirely appropriate, I apologize, but it made perfect sense to me. God knows we are born in a world where we will sin. He knows we have free will. We have the will to say "yes, I will sleep with him/her". I dont doubt the frustration and shame someone goes through with admitting they deal with homosexuality. Talk to many Christians and I gaurentee many have struggled with the thought.

I think it is safe to say that we all here agree that homosexuality IS a sin. All sin comes in the form of temptation. What makes this sin any different? If we are to support the idea that we can be born gay, we must also support the idea that we can be born into a bondage of any particular sin. God made man for woman and woman for man. Is that agreeable? Why would God purposely form his own son or his own daughter to be something that is completely out of his perfect plan? That is to me as equivalent as saying "God is choosing to go against Himself for this man/woman". I know it sounds awful to say homosexuality is a choice. But sometime down this road of temptation that man or woman has to choose when they will embrace this lifestyle, or condemn it.

[larryl]

i will offer this, as a bit of honesty......

earlier in my life, i was rather wild.....i had numerous live in girlfriends, and saw sex as no big deal.

this was all AFTER i became a christian mind you. (those of you who have seen other posts from me know that this was a horrible time of my life, and i thank God that he never left me through all of it)

now...i bring this up, because i think it addresses several points.

first.....was i any better than a homosexual? or to put it another way, was i sinning any less? no, i think i was not. sin is sin is sin. i was openly living in sexual sin. case closed.

second.....was i born a fornicator? or was i simply born a fallen man, full of sin, and this is the one i chose to indulge in (among others). again, i think it is the latter. i could easily have chosen to not do those things. my heart told me daily that i was WAY wrong, but i chose to continue along my way. had you confronted me (which would have been difficult, as i studiously avoided religious activities, to avoid such confrontations) i would have tried to justify what i was doing, how i was living.....in fact, i did, on at least one occassion.i can't, and do not pretend, to speak for gaychristian (he is always very open, and i am sure if he sees this thread, he will chime in) but i would suspect that many homosexuals have similar feelings....they KNOW it is wrong, but have all sorts of ways to justify their lifestyle.

these are my thoughts, for what they are worth.....

[godsdog]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you."

Leviticus 18:22-24

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Leviticus 20:13

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

Romans 1:26-27

[middletree]

Are you sure about that? Most mainline denominations statement of faith do not implicitly state that the bible is inerant.. Those Denominations include Presbyterian, Lutherian, Episcopol, Methodists... These are the 4 denominations that are coming apart because of Homosexuality..


I was speaking of people who are openly gay in so-called gay-friendly churches. Find a website for the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, and they have a page dedicated to thier interpretation of the verses about homosexuality. I went to that site some time ago, and at no time did they ever say the bible was in error. They just said you and me were reading it wrong.

Well I respect your disagreement.. I am not claiming that it is a spiritual bondage, but it is a bondage that perputates itself thoughout generations... If you do not belive me look at the state of New Orleans..

I know that many types of bondage can be inherited. Sins of the father and all that. But I thought you were saying that all people who are poor are in bondage. If I was wrong, I apologize.

Alcohol and drug abuse is a result of chemical addiction..

I used the word tendency. There is strong evidence that the difference between people who can drink heavily and not get addicted, vs. the ones got addicted fairly quickly, had some genetic differences. I thought this was common knowledge, but perhaps I just know it because (a) I'm a child of a long line of alcoholics; and (b) I am a former life science teacher.

I have never seen any evidence that a mental addiction is inheritable..
Don't think I could come up with scientific evidence, but I believe I have observed it. Plus, there are a few biblical examples. It's probably not genetic, but spiritual. And I'd say that homosexual tendencies might very well be, as well.

[Jason]

From the Evidence Bible provided by Ray Comfort:
"Homosexuals argue that they did not make a conscious decision to be that way, so it must be natural. They are born that way—just as all of us are born with a sin nature and sinful desires (Ephesians 2:1– ). Tell them that it is natural for them, and for all of us, to be tempted to do things that God says are wrong. In the same way, pedophiles and adulterers (alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.) don’t make a conscious decision to "choose" that self-destructive lifestyle, they simply give in to their sinful desires. However, although sin is natural for unbelievers, that doesn’t mean God wants them to remain that way. God can set them free from their sinful nature (Romans 7:23–8:2), give them new desires (Ephesians 4:22–24), and help them withstand temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13)."

And I'll comment further:
Each moment, we can choose to do good or to do evil. And those choices have consequences. Someone asks, "How can someone choose to be homosexual with all the prejudice, hatred, etc. they will encounter?" We might as well ask "How can people in countries such as China choose to become Christian knowing that they may end up in prison because of their beliefs?"

Sexual sins are often not a quick decision, but rather a slow but steady slide into the abyss. For example, a person may start off perusing "soft" porn and then finding that that doesn't satisfy starts perusing something more graphic. The cycle can continue to the point where the person is engaging in sexual perversions. All along seeking satisfaction but never finding it.

[middletree]

first.....was i any better than a homosexual? or to put it another way, was i sinning any less? no, i think i was not. sin is sin is sin. i was openly living in sexual sin. case closed.

I agree, and have been trying to say this all along. In fact, I wrote this www.middletree.net/hs.asp , some time ago, and made that very point.

[cheewiee]

i need to touch on this......are you saying that homosexuality is a "mental addiction" and therefore cannot be hereditary?

or are you saying that alcoholism and drug addiction cannot be hereditary?


I am saying that injesting a chemical substance on a regular basis creates a chemical dependancy that could be passd on through DNA..

I do not belive Homosexuality is a mental addiction, but I was simply illustrate the differences between a Chemical addiction vs. a Mental (Spiritual) Bondage..

[cheewiee]

i will offer this, as a bit of honesty......

earlier in my life, i was rather wild.....i had numerous live in girlfriends, and saw sex as no big deal.

this was all AFTER i became a christian mind you. (those of you who have seen other posts from me know that this was a horrible time of my life, and i thank God that he never left me through all of it)

now...i bring this up, because i think it addresses several points.

first.....was i any better than a homosexual? or to put it another way, was i sinning any less? no, i think i was not. sin is sin is sin. i was openly living in sexual sin. case closed.

second.....was i born a fornicator? or was i simply born a fallen man, full of sin, and this is the one i chose to indulge in (among others). again, i think it is the latter. i could easily have chosen to not do those things. my heart told me daily that i was WAY wrong, but i chose to continue along my way. had you confronted me (which would have been difficult, as i studiously avoided religious activities, to avoid such confrontations) i would have tried to justify what i was doing, how i was living.....in fact, i did, on at least one occassion.i can't, and do not pretend, to speak for gaychristian (he is always very open, and i am sure if he sees this thread, he will chime in) but i would suspect that many homosexuals have similar feelings....they KNOW it is wrong, but have all sorts of ways to justify their lifestyle.

these are my thoughts, for what they are worth.....

Ok the first point.. No Homosexuality is Sin.. Sin seperates us from God, and condemns us from hell.. A homosexual is no worse off than a fornicator.. or a pornographor.. or a murder.. or a pedaphile.. (Except for the argument that homosexuality then is a victomless sin)

I honestly belive we are born with a sin nature, capable of commiting any and all types of sin.. Are there generational sins?? The bible says that the Sins of the Father carry 7 generations is it? I know that I have struggled with some of the stuff my Dad struggled with, although I have had victory in those areas..

But I do not belive that one person is predesposed to sin.. But I also do not belive it is an enviormental either..

[larryl]

I am saying that injesting a chemical substance on a regular basis creates a chemical dependancy that could be passd on through DNA..

I do not belive Homosexuality is a mental addiction, but I was simply illustrate the differences between a Chemical addiction vs. a Mental (Spiritual) Bondage..

ahh. ok. thanks. i thought i should ask for clarification before commenting, and i see i was correct
:D

[larryl]

Ok the first point.. No Homosexuality is Sin.. Sin seperates us from God, and condemns us from hell.. A homosexual is no worse off than a fornicator.. or a pornographor.. or a murder.. or a pedaphile.. (Except for the argument that homosexuality then is a victomless sin)

I honestly belive we are born with a sin nature, capable of commiting any and all types of sin.. Are there generational sins?? The bible says that the Sins of the Father carry 7 generations is it? I know that I have struggled with some of the stuff my Dad struggled with, although I have had victory in those areas..

But I do not belive that one person is predesposed to sin.. But I also do not belive it is an enviormental either..


so you agree with me?? it appears that way....

i am not just looking for your agreement, i am trying to understand if that is what you are saying or not.

[cheewiee]

so you agree with me?? it appears that way....

i am not just looking for your agreement, i am trying to understand if that is what you are saying or not.

I am not sure what exactly you said.. It seems like you were asking oppinions.. So Let me be more clear with my answers to what I thought were your questions because I do not belive I was Direct Enough

1. Is homosexuality more wrong than another sin?
No, to God, Sin is Sin.. A sin that is little to us is the same to God as a sin that it Big to us..

2. Were you born a Fornicator or a Fallen Man?
Fallen Man, no where in scripture does it back up that somone is born with a predisposed to a particular sin...

Now that does not negate the issue of generational sin which can be passed from father to son. however God did not choose to make said individual Gay.

[larryl]

I am not sure what exactly you said.. It seems like you were asking oppinions.. So Let me be more clear with my answers to what I thought were your questions because I do not belive I was Direct Enough

1. Is homosexuality more wrong than another sin?
No, to God, Sin is Sin.. A sin that is little to us is the same to God as a sin that it Big to us..

2. Were you born a Fornicator or a Fallen Man?
Fallen Man, no where in scripture does it back up that somone is born with a predisposed to a particular sin...

Now that does not negate the issue of generational sin which can be passed from father to son. however God did not choose to make said individual Gay.


OK.....pattern is clear, ghostrider.

[Howlin' Wolf]

did you guys know that all calvinists believe people can be born gay? i sure didnt. and i'm a calvinist and i go to a presbyterian church. chhese whiz or whatever his name is likes to make strong claims without ANY backing whatsoever. :rolleyes:

[Gandalf]

Certainly all Calvinists don't believe that. I think the person who said that is clearly not looking at your beliefs from the perspective of one who holds them, and it seems to him to be a logical conclusion that God causes all sin, etc. Any Calvinist would disagree with his reasoning, but an Arminian looking at Calvinism from the outside could easily misunderstand it in that way. Don't let it bother you - not worth it :)

[cheewiee]

did you guys know that all calvinists believe people can be born gay? i sure didnt. and i'm a calvinist and i go to a presbyterian church. chhese whiz or whatever his name is likes to make strong claims without ANY backing whatsoever. :rolleyes:

I never said "all calvinists"..

but here is what is interesting..

you just adminted to being a calvainist, yet you belive people can be born gay...

By the way thank you for finaly getting my sex correct..

[Howlin' Wolf]

Certainly all Calvinists don't believe that. I think the person who said that is clearly not looking at your beliefs from the perspective of one who holds them, and it seems to him to be a logical conclusion that God causes all sin, etc. Any Calvinist would disagree with his reasoning, but an Arminian looking at Calvinism from the outside could easily misunderstand it in that way. Don't let it bother you - not worth it :)

calvinism vehemetly rejects God being the author of sin. but ive noticed that when people disagree on these boards, they make asanine assumptions about the other person's beliefs based on heresay. it really shows a lack of intelligence.

gandalf, are youfamiliar with infra and supralapsarianism?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Certainly all Calvinists don't believe that. I think the person who said that is clearly not looking at your beliefs from the perspective of one who holds them, and it seems to him to be a logical conclusion that God causes all sin, etc. Any Calvinist would disagree with his reasoning, but an Arminian looking at Calvinism from the outside could easily misunderstand it in that way. Don't let it bother you - not worth it :)

calvinism vehemetly rejects God being the author of sin. but ive noticed that when people disagree on these boards, they make asanine assumptions about the other person's beliefs based on heresay. it really shows a lack of intelligence.

gandalf, are youfamiliar with infra and supralapsarianism?

[Gandalf]

gandalf, are youfamiliar with infra and supralapsarianism?
Yes, though by my understanding, supralapsarianism to some extent could be considered to have God being the author of sin... infralapsarianism clearly doesn't though. Either way, certainly not all Calvinists are superlapsarianists.

For those unfamiliar, super- places God's choice of whom to elect to salvation logically (they say nothing of temporal relations) before His decision to allow the fall of man; infra- places it logically after, viewing all people in a fallen state and choosing whom to elect. Hypercalvinists fall into the super- camp. Both super- and infra- fall within Calvinistic theology. There's also Amyraldism, which holds that atonement is not limited (salvation provided is sufficient for all men), but God still, after providing it, elects whom He will. Kind of a 4-point Calvinism, of sorts. Arminianism is at the other end of the spectrum, where everyone is called to salvation, and those who choose to believe are elected.