The da Vinci Code

[TeleGirl72]

Has anyone read "The da Vinci Code"? What are your views? I felt it was purely fictional ,and that people made much more of it then it actually was. Sure, the author believes that stuff,but I never felt pressured into believing any of it. Just thought I would start knd of a discussion thing.It caused a lot of controversy ,and I am curious to see what other people thought about it.
-Sam

[sirlok]

I must admit I have no desire to read the book...but I have looked at a documentary favoring the book and the history of this secret society trying to hide what this book says about Our Lord Jesus and Mary and a whole bunch of other stuff. (so Ive heard)
Anyhow, I don't know if it's bugging me or if I like the fact that this book has come out because Im getting people around me that are believing this book to be a fact. I say I like it because it opens up a discussion in where I am given the opportunity to share the truth...but on the other hand it bugs me because just knowing people are believing this book. I mean not everybody who believes this book is gonna look for answers. They're just gonna walk away from it say something like "I knew the Bible was a lie" or something like that.

[TeleGirl72]

I agree with you guys somewhat. I also thought the book was well written ,and the basic storyline was cool. I really don't think people should have taken it so seriously seeing as Brown wrote it as a fictional book in the first place. I think you should know what you believe in order to not be sucked into some of the things in the book. I disagree with some of the things that were written ,but I didn't read the book with the intent of finding any truth in it (except the parts I already believed :) ). I know where I stand :) . That's all that matters to me :) . Thanks for your opinions! Keep 'em comin' y'all!!
-Sam

[Greg]

I've never read the book, but here's what Christianity Today a well respected magazine/ministry said.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2003/nov7.html

Also I found this website that has these three fictions from it:

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.co m/davinci.htm

Here's a summary of fictions from the da vinci code but for more detailed info check out the site above:

1. Fiction: Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus
2. Fiction: The Gnostic gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls are "the earliest Christian records."
3. Fiction: Christianity stole its ideas and concepts from paganism.
4. Fiction: The sacred name for God has a paganistic origin.
5. Fiction: The Vatican killed an "astounding 5 million women" during the witch hunts
6. Fiction: Emperor Constantine shaped the New Testament.
7. Fiction: The Vatican demonized pagan worship.
8. Fiction: Constantine and the Vatican demonized Mary Magdalene and sought to degrade women as part of a "power grab."
9. Fiction: "Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans."

If you want to stand for such blasphemy you have a right, but I choose not to.

KJV Malachi 2:6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

KJV Matthew 22:16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

KJV John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

KJV John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

KJV John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

KJV John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[TeleGirl72]

To set the record straight,I don't stand for blasphemy.I don't support the ideas presented in this book. I'm just saying that I don't think people should take it personally it's,and that it's just someone elses view. A view that I believe is false. Gregg, I so agree with the points you brought up. The books principles are not correct! I'm just saying the book really makes you think. Just trying to make discussion!! :)
-Sam

[Yoshi]

I read the book last week, and am interested in reading Angels and Demons when I get back from my week away...

I find the response interesting.. I'm currently reading a book called "The Gospel According To The Simpsons" By Mark I. Pinksy, and it raised some interesting points regarding the way Christians respond... There was such a stink kicked up, yet so many people had to recant what they said!

Yeah, sure, I don't think that's gonna be the case with The Da Vinci Code.. At least not the same extent. It's a good work of fiction, with the elements of fact that can be both proven and disproven, depending on what approach you take..

But ultimately, everything comes down to faith.. And for me, anything that makes people question life, God and religion is a change for the better.. At least the Da Vinci Code acknowledges that Jesus was something more than a man, that he existed.. Let's refocus the anger and religious furvour towards those that deny the existance of God..

[Glennjamin]

What I found interesting is how many people (non-believers) I know didn't read the "facts" page Dan Brown puts at the beginning of several of his novels... the couple paragraphs saying "this much is fact" implying "anything else... I MADE UP" :p

A well-written interesting read... but fiction.

[cheewiee]

The daVinci code presents many unresearched, unsupported consperacy theory's and presents them as fact... I am not so concerened with the book, rather the damage this book does to the credibility of the Word of God in the hearts of men...

Think about Mr. Joe Average Christian talking to his buddy about church, and now his buddy Mr Dan Brown Novel Reader informs Joe that his bible is full of flaws, and that there are other books that were left out at the behest of Constantine..... If Mr. Joe Average Christian doesn't have a basic grasp on Church History, and the Cannon of Scripture, his faith will be rocked by that conversation...

It presents another Gospel...

[Glennjamin]

The daVinci code presents many unresearched, unsupported consperacy theory's and presents them as fact... I am not so concerened with the book, rather the damage this book does to the credibility of the Word of God in the hearts of men...

I can see this happening also... :(

One thing that's interesting is that I'd seen a few of the theories before... in the non-fiction shelves of the libraries I used to work in, and the bookshops I'd browse through. These conspiracy theories have been around a while... yet for some reason it's not till someone puts them in a novel that suddenly people take notice... :confused:

The power of fiction on the masses, eh... As a someday writer, it's both encouraging and disturbing.

[cheewiee]

I can see this happening also... :(

One thing that's interesting is that I'd seen a few of the theories before... in the non-fiction shelves of the libraries I used to work in, and the bookshops I'd browse through. These conspiracy theories have been around a while... yet for some reason it's not till someone puts them in a novel that suddenly people take notice... :confused:

The power of fiction on the masses, eh... As a someday writer, it's both encouraging and disturbing.

Exactly.... The books that spout this stuff can be found in the Christian Section of the local Barnes and Noble... but when somone puts some of it in a book it all of a sudden becomes a fad...

Like I said... in terms of Eternity, and people souls who hang in the ballance, I am sad to see book's like this that casually distort the truth for dollars, and the eternal damage could be people's souls in hell. That makes me sad!

[Glennjamin]

Exactly.... The books that spout this stuff can be found in the Christian Section of the local Barnes and Noble... but when somone puts some of it in a book it all of a sudden becomes a fad...

I guess the thing with fiction's impact is its far wider audience... especially for "airport novel" thrillers...

[cheewiee]

I guess the thing with fiction's impact is its far wider audience... especially for "airport novel" thrillers...

Think about it this way....

Michael Chricton has made his living by writing his concerns about the advancement of science and making his concerns about the advancement of science through his Novel...

But... my main point... I met somone who swore Jurrasic Park ACTUALLY happened because of the intro to the book....

People ACTUALLY believed the Blair Witch Project was an actual documentry....

[Glennjamin]

Think about it this way....
Michael Chricton has made his living by writing his concerns about the advancement of science and making his concerns about the advancement of science through his Novel...
This is what encourages me...

But... my main point... I met somone who swore Jurrasic Park ACTUALLY happened because of the intro to the book....
People ACTUALLY believed the Blair Witch Project was an actual documentry....
And this is the flip side that disturbs me...

The "general public" can be an impressionable bunch... especially when it comes to any fiction that's "based" on research... as far as Dan Brown novels go, I actually found the non-Langdon novels I read (Deception Point and Digital Fortress) far more interesting.

[cheewiee]

I had a dissussion with a coworker who LOVED his novels, and saw me reading Mere Christianity, and asked me if it was an Anti-Christian Book, I said No (In afterthought I should have said Yes... and let her borrow it :D ) she said that she LOVED Dan Brown Novels, and how 'Right on' they were... I asked her what she ment... And she went on to explain how the bible isn't complete, and that constantine stripped out certain books of the bible... The next day I brought in a History of the Bible, book and pointed out some flaws in what she was saying... That the Council of Nicea had absolutly nothing to do with the Cannon of Scripture, We googled the council of Nicea and I showed her all of the decree's that were made and not one of them had one iota to do with the Cannon of scripture...

Well, she said that it basicly turned her off to his work....

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Most people who grab hold of this book and call it true are people who have already made up their minds. Not that there isn't hope for them, but most have already decided, or wanted to decide that Jesus was not God, or that religion is all fake. Every time something that seems plausible, makes sense and connects the dots in their mind comes up they will run with it.

I'd say this book doesn't really change anyone, but rather confirms what they wanted to believe in the first place. To that extent it brings out the truth in people.

That being said, I've never read it. I'm not much into thriller novels. But the movie looks interesting.

[steffen]

The funniest thing about the book is the plot.

The Vatican knows "the big secret", but don't want it to be known publically, so they persecute and slaughter this Zion-order (name may be different in English). That is the crime! Evil Catholics :mad:

The other guys... "good guys", is the Zion-order. For centuries, these heroic order has protected this ancient secret from becoming publically known, which would be a disgrace.

So both agree that the secret should not be told to the public.

Don't you think we could all just get along. :D

I wonder if the critics had been so uncritical had the book been about Islam or Buddhism...

[coldcupofjoe]

Think it will be as funny as "The Da Vinci Code"? Or do you think he'll try to do a little more presenting of TRUE facts this time?

[Pouye]

I have a feeling it'll be as off base as the DaVinci Code and A&D put together. It's a lot safer to pick on a fraternity than the Catholic Church.

Can you say, "fiction" and "these books sell and make the author lots of money"?

Rock

[Evanescence]

Time to rock the boat.....

1. The Freemasons are a secret society, been that way for centuries....they can't be trusted...

2. The Catholic Church persecuted early Christians who tried to translate the bible......I believe curruption set in to the catholic church early on and continues to this day. Read Revelation with an open mind and you may see.

3. Constantine had his hand in on the writing of the bible. He DID worship false Gods and was a murderous tyrant. He wasn't to be trusted. He had a BIG hand in writing the bible....

4. History can be very secretive......anything is possible.

The Da Vinci code is fiction but ther COULD be strands of truth buried within it. We don't have all the answers.....and neither does the bible...

[Jason]

3. Constantine had his hand in on the writing of the bible. He DID worship false Gods and was a murderous tyrant. He wasn't to be trusted. He had a BIG hand in writing the bible....


Please give backup for #3.

[Gandalf]

1. The Freemasons are a secret society, been that way for centuries....they can't be trusted...
The Freemasons have occultic ties, by many counts. No real argument there.
2. The Catholic Church persecuted early Christians who tried to translate the bible......I believe curruption set in to the catholic church early on and continues to this day. Read Revelation with an open mind and you may see.
Careful... The Catholic church came well after early Christians. People who tried to translate the Bible in the middle ages were persecuted by the RCC, but the Catholics are part of the Church as a whole, and that time period has passed.
3. Constantine had his hand in on the writing of the bible. He DID worship false Gods and was a murderous tyrant. He wasn't to be trusted. He had a BIG hand in writing the bible....
That's verifiably false...
4. History can be very secretive......anything is possible.
Well, possible in the sense that it's possible you're in the next room, but will be gone before I check... such a situation is highly unlikely though, as is probably the case with what you're implying could be true :)
The Da Vinci code is fiction but ther COULD be strands of truth buried within it. We don't have all the answers.....and neither does the bible...
It's pure fiction. There are as many strands of truth in Star Wars.

[SmileyFreak1981]

I keep seeing people, not just on these boards, referring to Freemasons as being "occultic" and "evil" and such, without any concrete evidence stated which draws you to that conclusion. Do you believe that because of your own research, or just because somebody told you so? If you feel it necessary to start another thread to discuss this subject, please do. Thanks.

[Gandalf]

I've heard enough testimonies of former masons to believe that there's something to the claims of their being a non-Christian religous organization, whether or not there are exaggerations. Fraternal societies in general tend towards the secretive quasi-religious environment where such errors could thrive. It seems entirely plausible, especially considering the testimony of numerous former masons that at the higher levels within the organization it becomes occultic, that at least to some extent it is not a healthy organization for a Christian to join.

The fact that several major mainstream Christian denominations (including the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church) do not allow Masons to become members without denouncing Freemasonry also speaks against them - such decisions are not made without any basis whatsoever.

[cheewiee]

3. Constantine had his hand in on the writing of the bible.
Constantine had absolutly nothing to do with writing the bible...

The Council of Nicea that Constantine called was about a growing sect that denyied the Diety of Christ... It was a division that was causing cracks in his empire and he wanted it resolved... And it's recorded that he really didn't care which way the bishops ruled...

Nothing that came from the Council of Nicea had anything to do with cannon of scripture... not one proclimation mentioned what books should be part of the bible...

[Evanescence]

Constantine had absolutly nothing to do with writing the bible...

The Council of Nicea that Constantine called was about a growing sect that denyied the Diety of Christ... It was a division that was causing cracks in his empire and he wanted it resolved... And it's recorded that he really didn't care which way the bishops ruled...

Nothing that came from the Council of Nicea had anything to do with cannon of scripture... not one proclimation mentioned what books should be part of the bible...

---------------
I'm about to reserch this. I was told by someone who claimed they researched it....and it seemed pretty accurate, that Constantine was in charge of writing the first bible. I have heard similar things from a few other sources.....but I will research it for myself.

[Kyle's dad]

I agree with you guys somewhat. I also thought the book was well written ,and the basic storyline was cool. I really don't think people should have taken it so seriously seeing as Brown wrote it as a fictional book in the first place.


He said the story line was fiction, but Brown adamantly claims that all the stuff about the code itself and the priory of scion and all the claims that they make are fact. I have not read it yet, but now that it will finally be coming out in paperback I am going to lead a group reading of it at my church. I am also going to use supplementary materials like "Cracking the Davinci Code" so as to separate fact from fiction.

If Brown had presented it purely as a work of fiction then it wouldn't be a big deal. But the fact is he has presented it as a fictional story surrounded by what he insists are "historically accurate facts and events."

[Evanescence]

I like how the catholic church was angry about the book....they said it made the church look bad etc etc...

LOL...I think the past atrocities and other known facts do that in themselves...

Such angry folk.... :o :rolleyes:

[kiwisongbird]

Yeah, but when the world sees Catholic Church - they see "Christians" - they don't separate us into different denominations - only WE do that!:)

[Gandalf]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no Catholic Christians, I've known several, some of whom are on this board. From my experience I've seen that Catholics tend to think that their religion is enough, much like Episcopalians.
I think such a statement could be true for many, if not most, denominations... I've met as many nominal Methodists as I have nominal Catholics, and most of the Catholics I actually know really love Jesus... certainly there are a lot who just go to church and think that's enough, but that problem's pretty bad in Protestant circles as well :(

[HotWireD]

I like how the catholic church was angry about the book....they said it made the church look bad etc etc...

LOL...I think the past atrocities and other known facts do that in themselves...

Such angry folk.... :o :rolleyes:

The inquisition ended in 1807, I believe - when Napoleon told the Catholic Church to stop torturing and trying people for heresy.

Possibly of interest -
A report of an article from ZENIT.org, a Catholic News Agency.

Catholic group: `Da Vinci` not for kidshttp://movies.monstersandcritics .com/news/article_1077984.php/Catholic_group_%60Da_Vinc i%60_not_for_kids




On the side - ZENIT actually has some good articles on it....

Cardinal Cottier on Exorcisms "The Church Must Speak About the Devil"
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=8320 6

Time to Defuse a Demographic Bomb - Concern Is Now About Population Decline
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=8317 1

Catholic TV Needs Better Quality, Says Vatican Official - Archbishop Foley Addresses Organizers of Forthcoming Congress
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=8320 4

[theories_on_dvc]

Well me and my best friend have been reading on your comments towards the DVC and well even tho i havent read the book my best friend has and she has clued me on some of the detalis.. and this is her opinion
"as my personal opinion this book has not changed in what i believe in and thats God and Jesus, am reading the book because i was curious to know what the book will say or what it was about and i know its not totally true but it is a THEORY. And i don't think people should get offended! That's my opinion

Now this is what i think...
To the last part my friend worte i think that people shouldent take the book so personal because i dont see you guys taking other books personal why this particular book? A theory is not right nor wrong because there is no explanation. All of you disagree with the book because there telling you things you dont like because of all of you being religious... Because you guys dont wanna here cause its not what YOU believe in...
Well if your religious then it shouldent matter because nothing should change your mind in what you belive and go by... so who cares what Dan Brown has to say... Its just a book... its his THEORY...
And one more thing....
How come everyone brings in the bilbe in every discussion?
I mean ok i respect the fact you belive in it and follow it but for real which bible should we all go by?
yours, your friends, a stranger? I mean the bible has diffrent words in them...
Like if you get your bilbe and compare it to others i bet it wont say the same thing...
And am sorry but the bible was not writted by God but by man so how come you all belive in it so much? your leader didn't write...

Oh yeah btw you guys didnt bring any points on the DVC or on the book
you dont have any strong points on the book and it was pointless on what you wrote... even tho you read the book it dosent mean you read between the lines...
All you guys brought up was religious matters....

This post is not to Offend anyone its just a Opinion nothing more or less....

[Mr.Elwood]

I read “Angels and Demons” first to try and learn the authors “style” before delving into this DAvinny mess..

Well, “Angels and Demons” has the same tag line “This is Fact!!” silliness.. and points out all the same “truthful” things he has uncovered.

The book itself is not bad for a first time self published book.. but to have a publishing house, with editors to back him up, I’m surprised he got a second chance. The book is like reading several short stories someone in high school wrote compacted into a book. He does show some flare in these pages and with a couple more books under his belt he might try writing to fulfill his vision and not try to make a point..

In the Da Vinci code he has the EXCAT same formula and he doesn’t even try to hide it. It is the reason I stopped reading Clancy, Patricia Cornwell, King, Higgins, La Haye…etc In their defense I lasted longer because their writing was so much better..

The problem with this book is the media and the media lead Church.

The media interviews this author like he’s an expert on the topics he covers, when rudimentary investigation has shown he didn’t even fact check his own “evidence”. So, the media gives him credibility about “the Jesus baby" stuff and then the typical Church leaders get involved to “counter the lies” (and get more media face time) so he gets more credibility in the eyes of John Q Public..

That is why I think it’s important to have Christians prepared to answer questions about the book.. hearfelt honest opinions back up by some simple facts..some believers and non-believers will actually take this book as a serious biography because the Church has already treated it that way..

Personally this whole saga reminds me of the Congressional stupidity that happened when Clancy unleashed “Hunt for Red October” and the egg on everyone’s face when they were finally convinced it was a fictional story.. Get a grip people…

[Kyle's dad]

IFrom my experience I've seen that Catholics tend to think that their religion is enough, much like Episcopalians.





I am constantly amazed at the level of insight that I see on this board. Some of you are to truly be commended. There's not that many people who can evaluate someone's commitment to Christ simply by how "religious" they are. That you can determine by talking to someone that they feel that their religion is enough to save them, or that you are able to determine that they are merely "nominal" Christians, well all I have to say is hats off to you!!!

[Mr.Elwood]

I am constantly amazed at the level of insight that I see on this board. Some of you are to truly be commended. There's not that many people who can evaluate someone's commitment to Christ simply by how "religious" they are. That you can determine by talking to someone that they feel that their religion is enough to save them, or that you are able to determine that they are merely "nominal" Christians, well all I have to say is hats off to you!!!
You pointing that comment at someone in particular?? Such a broad stroke makes it hard to be clear who your barb was thrown to?

I think he needs more polish as a researcher and author... I made no claim about his, or anyone else’s, faith. I do, however, highly recommend Christians be ready to defend themselves about this book simply by the pervasiveness of it in today’s society, and the aura that now surrounds it. Professing/witnessing/recognized Christians will become focal points of questions from anyone who “isn’t really sure on this whole Jesus is the Son of God virgin birth thingy”

[maui sista]

I have heard so much about the darn book I am gonna start reading it tonight.

Sonja

[Kyle's dad]

You pointing that comment at someone in particular?? Such a broad stroke makes it hard to be clear who your barb was thrown to?

I think he needs more polish as a researcher and author... I made no claim about his, or anyone else’s, faith. I do, however, highly recommend Christians be ready to defend themselves about this book simply by the pervasiveness of it in today’s society, and the aura that now surrounds it. Professing/witnessing/recognized Christians will become focal points of questions from anyone who “isn’t really sure on this whole Jesus is the Son of God virgin birth thingy”


I agree with everything you said about the book.

My comments were directed at the posts that I saw on here that I read where people seemed to suggest that the sincerity of a person's faith could be evaluated by how "religious" they are, that is to say the more "religious" the less sincere. This is an assertion that often will be directed to people of many denominations but epecially people of more liturgical traditions such as Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalean etc.

I think it's a completely unfair assertion.

But I will go back and bracket in a quote so it's clear who I was responding to.

[Youthwker]

I am constantly amazed at the level of insight that I see on this board. Some of you are to truly be commended. There's not that many people who can evaluate someone's commitment to Christ simply by how "religious" they are. That you can determine by talking to someone that they feel that their religion is enough to save them, or that you are able to determine that they are merely "nominal" Christians, well all I have to say is hats off to you!!!


Next they'll be saying like Lutherans too eh? ;)

[lilmikey]

I have never read the book myself. I might read it sometime just to see what all the hype is about. But to me(I know that some people believe it to be true about Christ being married and all that) it is a work of fiction and nothing else. What I am most interested in though is about the movie. I wonder if in the commentaries and documentaries/interviews if the director and producers will talk about what they believe about it. I was surprised to hear that Ron Howard directed this movie.

[rossid]

I sometimes wonder about Ron Howard as far as faith goes.

My brother, a non-believer, read it while we were in Arizona. His comment was it was clearly written to be a movie. He once said during the week while we were discussing faith, "what if Jesus was just a man." We continue to pray for his salvation but dVC supports his already skewed vision of God.

My wife thinks the movie looks interesting and so do I.

Finally, a Christian friend is listening to the book on cd and may loan it to me. I'd be interested in listening too.

How many pastors are preaching the truth about The dVC? I know of at least three.

:D

[bholdj]

I'm about to reserch this. .

Given your previous post on the subject. Any kind of research you present in the future has already lost credibility in my mind. Why did you make an assertion on the Bible when you have not even read on the subject? To start an argument? It didn't go very far, given how 3 people slammed you in your tracks with information that contridicted what you said,

Plus, the biggest result in my mind that came from the council of Nicea was not Constaintine's Bible translations (were did you hear that? :eek: ), but the Nicean Creed.

[coloradoblue84]

i absolutely loved the book, because whether or not it was fact or fiction, it did point out some EXTREMELY BLATENT religious thievery on the part of christianity and the church. plus, my all time favorite quote in the book "the bible was NOT a fax from god, it was WRITTEN BY MAN!!!!!." what if jesus was only a man? what if jesus had a wife, and a child? does that honestly take away any from the message he was trying to spread? besides, the church has totally taken his message, and skewed so far off that its not even recognizable anymore anyway. if there is a heaven, jesus is sitting up there shaking his head at the mockery that is christianity. and im sorry, but everyone that trys to say that jesus was the son of god, blah blah blah, you are just spitting back religious rhetoric that has been fed to you for years, because you weren't there, you honestly have no idea who jesus was, and what he truely said. man is fallable, and the bible is nothing but a huge book of religious Aesop's fables, ie - whats the moral of the story? its a pity that people can no longer think for themselves, but have to have a book to tell them what to do. i know right from wrong, i know i have morals, yet i didnt learn them from some self-righteous book that in all honesty has little truth, but is actually alot of fiction itself! go da vinci code! that should be the new bible!

[Jason]

i absolutely loved the book, because whether or not it was fact or fiction, it did point out some EXTREMELY BLATENT religious thievery on the part of christianity and the church. plus, my all time favorite quote in the book "the bible was NOT a fax from god, it was WRITTEN BY MAN!!!!!." what if jesus was only a man? what if jesus had a wife, and a child? does that honestly take away any from the message he was trying to spread? besides, the church has totally taken his message, and skewed so far off that its not even recognizable anymore anyway. if there is a heaven, jesus is sitting up there shaking his head at the mockery that is christianity. and im sorry, but everyone that trys to say that jesus was the son of god, blah blah blah, you are just spitting back religious rhetoric that has been fed to you for years, because you weren't there, you honestly have no idea who jesus was, and what he truely said. man is fallable, and the bible is nothing but a huge book of religious Aesop's fables, ie - whats the moral of the story? its a pity that people can no longer think for themselves, but have to have a book to tell them what to do. i know right from wrong, i know i have morals, yet i didnt learn them from some self-righteous book that in all honesty has little truth, but is actually alot of fiction itself! go da vinci code! that should be the new bible!

May I suggest you read:
The Gospel of John
New Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

After reading those, get back to me.

[coloradoblue84]

May I suggest you read:
The Gospel of John
New Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

After reading those, get back to me.

well, i looked over the gospel of john, and managed to find an online bookstore thing for the other two, and not only did i see some wonderful story telling in the gospel of john, but also alot of narrowminded and one-track thinking with the others. im not trying to say christianity is bad, and my way is the only way to think, im just tired of watching idley by why the money machine that is christianity and the catholic church continue to oppress and condem issues, ways of life, etc. that they deem "unacceptable." who gave them the right to decide right from wrong? isnt that each persons own choice? granted, there are somethings that are just socially unacceptable, ie - murder, robbery, pedophillia, ect. but on other issues and other beliefs, what makes them the supreme judge? not a damn thing if you ask me, which is why i am extremely EXTREMELY against organized religion, ecspecially western organized religions. i refuse to accept that some person in a freaking cloistered church has any idea on any of the issues that people face today, like homosexuality or abortion. a church run purely by men has no business telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, and has no business condeming a lifestyle they know nothing about. like they said in Dogma, religion was a good "IDEA," because you can change an idea, its alot harder to change a belief

[Jason]

well, i looked over the gospel of john, and managed to find an online bookstore thing for the other two, and not only did i see some wonderful story telling in the gospel of john, but also alot of narrowminded and one-track thinking with the others.

I suggested reading those three, not just looking them over. Why did I suggest those three? Because 17 years ago, those books convinced me that Christianity was the only true path to God. They convinced me that Jesus was indeed the Son of God and that He was the way, the truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus.

Since becoming a Christian, I've learned that God isn't interested in religion (a set of rules and rituals) as much as having a relationship with me. He has shown me His love and wants me to show that love to others. This includes showing love to such people as homosexuals. Does God consider homosexuality wrong? Yes, because he chose heterosexuality to be the natural affection. But homosexuality is just one of many sins. I have committed many myself, but God chose to love and forgive me. I heard a story about Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York. Some members came to the pastor and asked his permission to minister to a certain people group. He asked what the people group was. The members answered, "Male transvestite prostitutes." The pastor gave his permission. The group began to minister to these men, showing them the love of God. One Sunday a group of these men, showed up for church wearing women's clothing. They weren't judged so they kept coming. They eventually got off the street, gave up prostitution, and started dressing as the men God created them to be.

Again, get back to me after you've read those three books.

[coloradoblue84]

when exactly did god PERSONALLY tell you that homosexuality and transvestism is wrong? because thats the problem im having really, at what point did god every tell ANYONE that this stuff was wrong and a sin? isnt there a VERY HIGH probability that long ago someone just "decided" that this was wrong, and wrote it into the bible? if you believe in an all powerful, all loving god, creator of everything, why cant you fathom that maybe, just maybe, your god created homosexuals and trasvestites and whatever else there is out there you deem sinful, ON PURPOSE! maybe, just maybe, god MEANT for them to be the way they are! i just feel judging someone based on a book written by fallable men is not right, and im sure if there is a god, he/she/it would definately agree with me. "judge not least ye be judged" totally sums it up, and is probably the only biblical quote i can honestly agree with. i will try to locate those books and read them, just to see your point of veiw, because i do respect others views on life, i just dont believe one opinion is the only way it is.

[Glennjamin]

i absolutely loved the book, because whether or not it was fact or fiction, it did point out some EXTREMELY BLATENT religious thievery on the part of christianity and the church.

I've highlighted an interesting phrase up there.

Um... actually... if it was fiction, then it didn't point anything out. Just thought I'd point that out.

i will try to locate those books and read them, just to see your point of veiw, because i do respect others views on life, i just dont believe one opinion is the only way it is.

Jason's right, those would be good books to read.

As for the thing about opinions... relativism is great isn't it? If it's good for you, then that's all well and good. Etc. Etc. Well... maybe.

Case study:
My belief is that I'm going to Heaven when I die. It could be that this is just my opinion. OK. Someone else has the belief that when they die, they will go to Heaven, while I will go to Hell. A third person believes that we will all just rot in the ground. And a fourth person has the opinion that everyone will float up to a cloud when we die and we'll all get to the highest cloud eventually.

Now... if my opinion isn't the only way, then where will I go when I die? Can I simultaneously go nowhere, to Heaven, to Hell, and to a cloud?

"What's good for you is good for you" doesn't work in application... in my opinion. ;)

[bholdj]

there a VERY HIGH probability that long ago someone just "decided" that this was wrong, and wrote it into the bible? if you believe in an all powerful, all loving god, creator of everything, why cant you fathom that maybe, just maybe, your god created homosexuals and trasvestites and whatever else there is out there you deem sinful, ON PURPOSE! maybe, just maybe, god MEANT for them to be the way they are! i just feel judging someone based on a book written by fallable men is not right

Three things.

1. How unfortunate you cannot accept the possibility that Christ is Lord just because of the wrongs of another time. Is it so hard to believe that scripture is theopneustos, or God breathed (I tim 3:16)?

2. Dan Brown dosen't have a thing on C.S Lewis, John Wesley, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Augustine, the Apostles (history asserts the Apostles existence, even you must realize this) and hundreds of Chruch fathers whose research and experince alone make Brown's argument burn to ashes.

3. Did it ever occur to you, that God (gasps!) uses human beings?! Scripture is full of moments of when His will is fullfilled with people carrying it out. Moses, Paul, Peter, and David are good examples.

Sorry, your "the bible was written by humans" argument crumbles against Biblical scripture and histroical testimony. Because according to Scripture and history, God uses humans to fullfill His will! But thanks for playing :)

[bholdj]

i just dont believe one opinion is the only way it is.

You mean an opinion you don't believe , because millions of other disagree with you.

What was it George Micheal said? "You gotta have faith" :D

Plus, Jesus Christ is more than an opinion, but you will have to ask God for help on more about him, if your willing :).

[Glennjamin]

Plus, Jesus Christ is more than an opinion

Amen to that!

[VeggieFan05]

This (http://www.jesusdecoded.com/truthbetold1.php?page=100 ) is a great article about talkng to DVC believers. There are so many blatant errors in DVC, it boggles the mind!

[coloradoblue84]

so because i have "faith" in one book that goes against the story in YOUR book, i am wrong and misguided and misinformed, but my story is in all reality alot more likely and believable, whereas your story book has no actual factual basis, just alot of hearsay and conjecture. im sorry, but again i say MAN IS FALLABLE and is quite consistant with making mistakes, but you are trying to tell me that the bible, which is THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD cannot POSSIBLY have any sort of mistakes or embelishments in it whatsoever? come on now! faith is a wonderful thing, dont get me wrong, but isnt blind faith kind of a cult-ish type deal? faith without understanding and a grain of salt just leads to fanatacism, which in turn leads to violence and intolerence. being able to see the world without the blinders of an oppressive religion is a blessing really. im not saying stop believing in god and jesus, im just saying dont believe every little thing the church force feeds you, because in all honesty you do not know if they have it right. its funny how jesus is called the lamb of god, and there are references to shepards and sheep and such, because christianity does remind me of sheep being herded. they have no idea where they are going, or what they are doing, but as long as someone is there to guide them, they ask no questions and follow all the commands.

[woman4life]

Actually, there well could be some transcriptural errors, etc., in the Bible, but none that affect doctrine. We don't just have one copy of the entire book, and it is amazingly consistent. Apparent inconsistencies (of which there are only a few), seem to have fairly reasonable explanations. If the explanations were fantastic, I doubt I'd buy them at all. I can be a pretty good skeptic.

On the other hand, the Da Vinci Code has numerous historical errors while claiming to be based on historical fact. Some of the errors are really easy to document... and I believe even some who are not of the same "faith" have done so.

BTW, I have a fairly well educated friend who will often tell me things about the Bible he learned in college, and upon researching I will find that they are inaccurate, and I'm not talking about just from Christian sites.

I will tell you that my pastor thinks the DVC makes decent fictional reading, except that he had a difficult time setting aside the obvious historical inaccuracies. The main concern is that it was being passed off as historically accurate fiction when it is definitely not.

--Melanie

The first link is not your typical, Christian, Bible Scholar and he is quite critical of the Da Vinci Code from a historical basis:
http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists .net/BkrvMagdalene.htm#Price
http://www.leaderu.com/focus/davincicode.html
http://www.tektonics.org/davincicrude.htm
http://www.christian-centre.org/resources/articles/davincicode.html

[Pouye]

its funny how jesus is called the lamb of god, and there are references to shepards and sheep and such, because christianity does remind me of sheep being herded. they have no idea where they are going, or what they are doing, but as long as someone is there to guide them, they ask no questions and follow all the commands.

You have some great points. There are some who simply follow religion blindly, just obeying someone in authority because they feel compelled to do so.

Here is why I'm a Christian, even though Christians are not always very believable, nice, or even moral.

I'm a Christian because I believe that Jesus existed (this is historical fact), and the life He led and the Words He spoke were both true. Not in the relative sense, but in the real sense of the word true -- like if you drive your car into a brick wall at 110mph it will crash -- that kind of true.

That's it. Christianity in a nutshell answers this question Jesus asked a friend of his named Martha, whose brother (also a friend) Jesus raised from the dead:

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again. They are given eternal life for believing in me and will never perish. Do you believe this, Martha?"

I believe what Jesus said, so I would answer "Yes, Lord" to this question. The reason I believe is because I believe Jesus was telling the truth. The proof He gave was that not only did He raise Martha's brother from the dead (which infuriated the Pharisees, who plotted to kill him again!), but Jesus Himself rose from the dead.

Martha replied:
"Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."

This is the Gospel in a nutshell:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

Christianity is not believing in church, religious rituals, or even blindly believing anything. It is about people who gave their lives (almost every one of Jesus' disciples were martyred for the truth they proclaimed), willing to die for what they knew was true:

The writer of the Gospel of Luke starts the Book out like this:

"Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

This same Luke knew Jesus' disciples personally, and was writing these things down soon after they happened, not after generations had passed. This same Luke was the author of the Book of Acts, which is an amazing account which is very historically accurate as confirmed by secular history and archeology.

I believe these eyewitnesses. I believe their words, since most of them died horrible deaths while trying to get their message out to the rest of the world.

Christians are called "believers". Why? Because they believe God's Message. They believe Jesus is God's Son, as He called Himself:

"The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
Matt. 26:63-

According to the Bible, coloradoblue84, Jesus loves you and died for your sins, and if you believe these words and trust Him, you will have a relationship with God. You don't have to believe this:

"He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

But I do believe this to be the case, because since I have believed this, I have had a relationship with God that I cannot explain to anyone who does not have such a relationship.

If you don't get anything else from this post, at least here this: God doesn't care about organized religion or any of the failings of man. What He cares about is a love relationship with people, and that people believe what is true about Him through His message to people, which we call the Bible.

That's why without faith in God it is impossible to please Him. For anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists, and that He rewards those who seek Him.

Rock

[Evanescence]

when exactly did god PERSONALLY tell you that homosexuality and transvestism is wrong? because thats the problem im having really, at what point did god every tell ANYONE that this stuff was wrong and a sin? isnt there a VERY HIGH probability that long ago someone just "decided" that this was wrong, and wrote it into the bible? if you believe in an all powerful, all loving god, creator of everything, why cant you fathom that maybe, just maybe, your god created homosexuals and trasvestites and whatever else there is out there you deem sinful, ON PURPOSE! maybe, just maybe, god MEANT for them to be the way they are! i just feel judging someone based on a book written by fallable men is not right, and im sure if there is a god, he/she/it would definately agree with me. "judge not least ye be judged" totally sums it up, and is probably the only biblical quote i can honestly agree with. i will try to locate those books and read them, just to see your point of veiw, because i do respect others views on life, i just dont believe one opinion is the only way it is.

Oh, thats easy....

Just follow the leader and act stubborn and closeminded like the ones teaching you. Don't think for yourself, afterall that is SIN!!!!!!!!

If you read the bible....all 10-12 versions of it, God will speak the truth to you and you'll know all.....it doesn't matter that there is 2500 different denominations based on their interpretations. You'll be the only one thats right.

:D Sarcasm :D

[bholdj]

so because i have "faith" in one book that goes against the story in YOUR book, i am wrong and misguided and misinformed, but my story is in all reality alot more likely and believable, whereas your story book has no actual factual basis, just alot of hearsay and conjecture. im sorry, but again i say MAN IS FALLABLE and is quite consistant with making mistakes, but you are trying to tell me that the bible, which is THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD cannot POSSIBLY have any sort of mistakes or embelishments in it whatsoever? come on now! faith is a wonderful thing, dont get me wrong, but isnt blind faith kind of a cult-ish type deal? faith without understanding and a grain of salt just leads to fanatacism,

Indeed, my sister in law is a good example of this. Her beliefs are tossed to and fro with evrey doctrine she hears. She in reality has no clue what she believes because she changes her mind (literally) almost evrey day.

However, your post count indicates you are new here, so i will be the first to tell you, you will not find any of those kinds of people on this board, myself included.

So understand, when you make statements like "man is fallable, the Bible is thousands of years old, etc." Your not talking to first time believers here. Pouye, Gandalf, Tulip5points, Corrine, Ehjud Elijah and countless others who have come on these boards over the years have been of great benifit to my walk with Jesus Christ. They know what there talking about, they havestudied there faith backwards and fowards to the point that lots of discussion threads on the Bible in "The Word" range from 9-12 pages.

As for my previous post, I stand by it. Statements like the ones you made show no kind of support. Historians of the church and society have in fact proven that Christ did preach to the jews, did preach on the subject of "The Kingdom of God, etc.

As one of the links stated, interpetations on how to believe in what Jesus preached differ. But make no mistake, Jesus the Christ in some form or fashion, existed. For Christians, we choose to have faith that what the Bible says about Jesus is true. Given the experinces of millions of believers, historical scholarship, and what I and other Christians believe to be the Holy Spirit. You will be hard pressed to find much evidence to "prove" the Christian religion to be started by "Fallable" men.

As Carl Bart stated...

"an individual who seeks to prove God and succeeds, has in fact proven a false god Because the God of the Bible is not subject to proof."

My part in this discussion ends here, because Scripture tells me that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe. Good luck in your search...

Sola Christos

John

[JadeBlueFox]

I know you guys were talking about the Council of Nicea earlier and how it didn't really change the doctrine of the Church that much, but I would like to point out on thing that was expunged from the bible that I think has quite a bearing on the doctrine, and that's Lilith. For those of you who don't know, Lilith was the first wife of Adam, and she was created from the same dust, and God breathed life into her at the same time he gave life to Adam. But when Lilith was told she was supposed to be subservient to Adam, she said that she was his equal and refused to be subservient, and left the Garden before the fall. This means that not only is Lilith free of original sin, but she is immortal. I think this changes the doctrine quite a bit, because it says that there was at least one other person on the planet for Adam to go forth and multiply with, and that there was at least in woman in history that refused to be subservient and that is not what the Christian church wanted in it's doctrine. Before this Goddess worship was widely practiced and this was one way of suppressing it, by saying that women were lower then men.

[Mr.Elwood]

I know you guys were talking about the Council of Nicea earlier and how it didn't really change the doctrine of the Church that much, but I would like to point out on thing that was expunged from the bible that I think has quite a bearing on the doctrine, and that's Lilith. For those of you who don't know, Lilith was the first wife of Adam, and she was created from the same dust, and God breathed life into her at the same time he gave life to Adam. But when Lilith was told she was supposed to be subservient to Adam, she said that she was his equal and refused to be subservient, and left the Garden before the fall. This means that not only is Lilith free of original sin, but she is immortal. I think this changes the doctrine quite a bit, because it says that there was at least one other person on the planet for Adam to go forth and multiply with, and that there was at least in woman in history that refused to be subservient and that is not what the Christian church wanted in it's doctrine. Before this Goddess worship was widely practiced and this was one way of suppressing it, by saying that women were lower then men.
Other than what's covered here...Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith) do you another reference that might have better facts to support your claim?

and I not sure where I read in the Bible that women are to be suppressed and silenced and persecuted to be second in nature? Where in the Bible are women to be considered lower than man? Can you reference those verses or books in the Bible where it gives the Christian man the instructions to treat women that way?

[JadeBlueFox]

All you have to do is type in Lilith into Google and you will get dozens of references to Lilith. I also believe that she is still mentioned in the King James version of the bible. As for proof of the suppression of women here is a webpage detailing alot of it.. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/womenbible.html

[Gandalf]

I know you guys were talking about the Council of Nicea earlier and how it didn't really change the doctrine of the Church that much, but I would like to point out on thing that was expunged from the bible that I think has quite a bearing on the doctrine, and that's Lilith. For those of you who don't know, Lilith was the first wife of Adam, and she was created from the same dust, and God breathed life into her at the same time he gave life to Adam. But when Lilith was told she was supposed to be subservient to Adam, she said that she was his equal and refused to be subservient, and left the Garden before the fall.
That's patently untrue.

The earliest existing reference to the myth of Lilith (a female demon/goddess that has been revered in various forms throughout civilization) as the wife of Adam was in an anonymous medieval writing called The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, which was written somewhere between the 8th and 11th centuries. This is well after the first Council of Nicea (AD 325).

There were never any writings that were even considered as possibly being canonical that suggested any veneration of this pagan diety or any such mythological origin. The Council of Nicea did formulate the Nicene Creed, and counter several heresies that were existent at the time, but this one hadn't even been imagined yet.

You'll certainly get dozens of references to Lilith from Google, as that was a pagan goddess (i.e. demon) that has been worshipped through various cultures. But that doesn't make it true that she is anything more than a deceptive spirit who has led people astray.

The KJV reference you refer to is a word that appears once in Isaiah (in a negative context), and is translated "screech owl" - even if it were referring to a spirit that had deceived people into thinking that it was Adam's first wife (again, an idea which did not yet exist), its mention would not imply support.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

That's patently untrue.

The earliest existing reference to the myth of Lilith (a female demon/goddess that has been revered in various forms throughout civilization) as the wife of Adam was in an anonymous medieval writing called The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, which was written somewhere between the 8th and 11th centuries. This is well after the first Council of Nicea (AD 325).

There were never any writings that were even considered as possibly being canonical that suggested any veneration of this pagan diety or any such mythological origin. The Council of Nicea did formulate the Nicene Creed, and counter several heresies that were existent at the time, but this one hadn't even been imagined yet.

You'll certainly get dozens of references to Lilith from Google, as that was a pagan goddess (i.e. demon) that has been worshipped through various cultures. But that doesn't make it true that she is anything more than a deceptive spirit who has led people astray.

The KJV reference you refer to is a word that appears once in Isaiah (in a negative context), and is translated "screech owl" - even if it were referring to a spirit that had deceived people into thinking that it was Adam's first wife (again, an idea which did not yet exist), its mention would not imply support.

Hmmm. Can't say I have ever heard of a Lilith before. Needless to say it is untrue and that Brian has posted an excellent reply. Nice work!

[Aussie3rddayfan]

so because i have "faith" in one book that goes against the story in YOUR book, i am wrong and misguided and misinformed, but my story is in all reality alot more likely and believable, whereas your story book has no actual factual basis, just alot of hearsay and conjecture. im sorry, but again i say MAN IS FALLABLE and is quite consistant with making mistakes, but you are trying to tell me that the bible, which is THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD cannot POSSIBLY have any sort of mistakes or embelishments in it whatsoever? come on now! faith is a wonderful thing, dont get me wrong, but isnt blind faith kind of a cult-ish type deal? faith without understanding and a grain of salt just leads to fanatacism, which in turn leads to violence and intolerence. being able to see the world without the blinders of an oppressive religion is a blessing really. im not saying stop believing in god and jesus, im just saying dont believe every little thing the church force feeds you, because in all honesty you do not know if they have it right. its funny how jesus is called the lamb of god, and there are references to shepards and sheep and such, because christianity does remind me of sheep being herded. they have no idea where they are going, or what they are doing, but as long as someone is there to guide them, they ask no questions and follow all the commands.

To add to Jason's list:

* 'The Case for the Creator' by Lee Strobel
* 'Is the New Testament History?' by Dr Paul Barnett (this one will answer many of your questions)
* 'Jesus on Trial' by Kel Richards
* 'What's So Amazing About Grace?' by Philip Yancey

I would encourage you to read at least some of the above books. The bible, I believe, is far from a fairy-tale and has been supported historically over and over agian.

Concerning your comment of the bible being misleading because it was written by falliable men you are partly correct. The bible WAS written by sinful men, just like you and me, BUT.....the bible was inspired by God. We co-authored the bible in a sense. We were the scribes writing down someone else's words, not our own. In the book of Timothy the bible says that "all scriptures are God-breathed". The bible was written and inspired by a Holy, Righteous and perfect God. That is what we as christians believe.

As for faith being blind, I don't think we as Christians do have blind faith. There is very seldom such a thing - if ever. Whether believer or not, we all place our faith in many things each day. I can sit on a chair because I know it will support me because I have seen the evidence for it and I have a basic understanding of the physics involved. Another word for faith is trust, I trust other road users to stop when they get a red light and I get a green.

As a final quick note, welcome the boards. I hope you feel welcome and have many productive discussions here. Can I pray for you about anything? PM me if you do, or if you have any questions. :D

-Colin-