What does God want?

[GayChristian]

not a trick question, just an inquiry as to what we all think about what God wants.

What does God want?

-Mark

[middletree]

Pretty broad, Mark. Are you asking what God wants from us? What God's purpose for creating the universe is?

Not that I have the answer for either one.

[NotMyOwn]

I think what God wants foremost is to have a relationship with us through Jesus Christ. God has so much love to give that He created us so that He could show love to us and we therefore would return that love back to Him.

[ICarlson99]

I think God wants us to repent of our sins, believe and confess that Jesus died on the cross for us, and to live our lives according to his plans for us and in harmony with his laws.

What do you think?

[wennie]

Matthew 22:37-40:
"You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39A second is equally important: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

[GayChristian]

Those sound like pretty good answers to me... and go along with the party line.

What if God didn't want anything? What if God is totally self-sufficient? Wennie brought up a great passage - a beautiful one, but is that being asked of us for God's sake, or for our own?

(I don't know the answer to any of these, I just appreciate the discussion and think it is a challenging thing to ponder... actually, I love the challenge of pondering many aspects of God)

ya'll are amazing :D

[middletree]

Those sound like pretty good answers to me... and go along with the party line.

What if God didn't want anything? What if God is totally self-sufficient?

Those are 2 different questions. God is self-sufficient, but He wants us. He doesn't need us, but He values us.

[Little Diva]

Those are 2 different questions. God is self-sufficient, but He wants us. He doesn't need us, but He values us.

I agree with what middletree has said because God is all seeing, all knowing and all present and is all. I base this on the passage of scripture in Exodus 3:14 because Moses asks God what shall he say to the people if they ask who sent me and God replieds "I AM has sent me to you"

Also

Genesis 17:1 “the Almighty God”. The all-sufficient One who enriches and makes fruitful.

Self-Sufficiency The Almighty God, El Shaddai, is not dependent upon anyone, He is totally self-sufficient. All created beings are dependent upon Him but He is totally self reliant. Psalm 50:12 “If I were hungry I would not tell you: for the world is mine and the fullness thereof”.

I think God wants us to be in a relationship with him because if he didn't love us so much why would he have sent his only Son to die for us, John 3:16. Also one of the names of God is Jehovah-raah, Psalm 23:1 Yahweh is my Shepherd. He cares for you and me. We were created to love God and share in fellowship with himbut then sin entered our world. God made a way for us to come back to him and that was through Jesus dieing on the cross for our sins. As well as loving God (see Wennie's scripture post) we have to show that love to the lost and unsaved of this world.

[Jesus Freak!]

I think He wants us to be His, follow Him, and let His will be done.

But I'm not really sure what he wants...
I'm not (and will never be) all-knowing and all-powerful like my God... ;)

[Psalm25Gomer]

Obedience.


And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22

[middletree]

Obedience.


And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 1 Samuel 15:22
Hey, Leslee, you have a lot of nerve! We're over here speculating on what God wants, speaking for God, and you go and use His own words to answer the question. Now you've done gone and raised the standard!

;)

[Psalm25Gomer]

Hey, Leslee, you have a lot of nerve! We're over here speculating on what God wants, speaking for God, and you go and use His own words to answer the question. Now you've done gone and raised the standard!

;)

Short...simple...and to the point. ;) :)






(how are you doing, James?)

[mercyGurl]

Those are 2 different questions. God is self-sufficient, but He wants us. He doesn't need us, but He values us.

"We as sinful people don't want God, but we need Him. In the same way, God doesn't need us, but He wants us anyway".

-Mac Powell

[middletree]

"We as sinful people don't want God, but we need Him. In the same way, God doesn't need us, but He wants us anyway".

-Mac Powell
Nice quote. Of course, I disagree that we should use the phrase sinful people to describe believers. I am a former sinner saved by grace.

[NotMyOwn]

God wants "All men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:4

[middletree]

God wants "All men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:4
Interesting. Why doesn't He care about women?

(ducking)

[NotMyOwn]

Interesting. Why doesn't He care about women?

(ducking)

:D :D

lol

***awaits flying tomatos***

[Psalm25Gomer]

*raises an eyebrow*


You guys are going to be in big trouble, you know that?



:p

[mercyGurl]

Nice quote. Of course, I disagree that we should use the phrase sinful people to describe believers. I am a former sinner saved by grace.

I think he meant in terms of our flesh not wanting God--our dead, sinful selves. Because Christ in me definitely wants God, but my flesh does not.

[middletree]

I think he meant in terms of our flesh not wanting God--our dead, sinful selves. Because Christ in me definitely wants God, but my flesh does not.
Yeah, I know. It's just been a point of contention for me when Christians refer to themselves as sinners. But the gist of the quote by Mac wasn't about that, and was a good, profound quote. Thanks for sharing, and I'm sorry I hijacked the thread.

[middletree]

*raises an eyebrow*


You guys are going to be in big trouble, you know that?



:p
Sorry for the hijack. We now return to our regular thread, already in progress.

[Pouye]

Jesus told them, “This is what God wants you to do: Believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29

And though I [Jesus] have no wish to glorify myself, God wants to glorify me.
John 8:50

God wants his children to live in peace. 1 Cor. 7:15b

And what God wants is for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. Hebrews 10:10

... and that is only a few verses.

God wants to love. It is His nature. Isn't that cool!?

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

not a trick question, just an inquiry as to what we all think about what God wants.

What does God want?

-Mark

God wants you to not be gay

....just saying....thats what He wants

[godsdog]

thats something he will have to realize on his own...God's not going to love u anyless... and do not start quoting from the bible... i know what it has to say... i am a pastors kid ok... thank you

God wants us to love him. he wants to love us. he sent his son to die for us that we could live in heaven with him. he doesn't play games u either accept him or u don't... but he won't love u anyless... its still hurts him to deny his children

[Howlin' Wolf]

thats something he will have to realize on his own...God's not going to love u anyless... and do not start quoting from the bible... i know what it has to say... i am a pastors kid ok... thank you

God wants us to love him. he wants to love us. he sent his son to die for us that we could live in heaven with him. he doesn't play games u either accept him or u don't... but he won't love u anyless... its still hurts him to deny his children

i didnt say anything about love, pastor's kid that knows all the scripture. he asked what God wants, i told him. last time i checked, pastor's kid that knows all the scriptures, God hates sin.

[Mr.Elwood]

My Father wants me to be the best I can be (give yourself utterly and completely to God) and know right (Light) from wrong (Darkness). I am His child and He has given the knowledge (through trail and fire) and operator’s manual to follow him as he would have me (Obedience). With that knowledge I’ll be able to have offspring (raise them up in the things of God) and carry on the family tradition..

Pretty simple I think….. ;)

[NotMyOwn]

*raises an eyebrow*


You guys are going to be in big trouble, you know that?



:p

Some poeple sure are trouble makers, isn't he. ;)

[GayChristian]

God wants you to not be gay

....just saying....thats what He wants

((sigh))

Why don't you ask Him to talk to me about that? thanks though... ;) :)

[larryl]

i am pretty sure God doesn't want us to argue........

i see this thread as about to get very ugly, very quickly

and for the record; i actually agree with tulip for a change....his timing and delivery could be better, as usual, but he is correct in his assertion

[GayChristian]

i am pretty sure God doesn't want us to argue........

i see this thread as about to get very ugly, very quickly

and for the record; i actually agree with tulip for a change....his timing and delivery could be better, as usual, but he is correct in his assertion

I've tried to bring up several topic on this discussion forum, and it always seems to be derailed by somebody. Not a big deal... we've had some interesting topics about homosexuality. I would love to take an anti-gay stance on the topic, but it's just not scriptural.

In God's Peace,
-Mark

[larryl]

I've tried to bring up several topic on this discussion forum, and it always seems to be derailed by somebody. Not a big deal... we've had some interesting topics about homosexuality. I would love to take an anti-gay stance on the topic, but it's just not scriptural.

In God's Peace,
-Mark

sorry. i wasn't trying to derail your thread. i just know what will happen to it now that tulip has found it.

i am not anti-gay, i am anti-gay behavior. which is scriptural.

[Mr.Elwood]

I've tried to bring up several topic on this discussion forum, and it always seems to be derailed by somebody. Not a big deal... we've had some interesting topics about homosexuality. I would love to take an anti-gay stance on the topic, but it's just not scriptural.

In God's Peace,
-Mark
Well don't give up... I love your questions...

[GayChristian]

i am anti-gay behavior. which is scriptural.

ah... there's plenty of space in the boards to start a topic about that (maybe in the "word" forum or something...)

[larryl]

ah... there's plenty of space in the boards to start a topic about that (maybe in the "word" forum or something...)

very true. like i said...i wasn't trying to derail, or get off of that topic; it's all good.

[GayChristian]

Rock on!

now, back to your regular programming

What if we live in a universe that is based on duality (stay with me here)... if you want to experience hot, you need to know what cold is - if you want to know wet, you need to know what dry is (ask a fish what it's like to be wet... they don't have an answer for that - mostly because they're fish... and fish don't talk - but I digress)

But when there was nothing but God ("In the beginning...") - there was nothing but... God. And God didn't have anything to compare himself to, because there was nothing but him. Therefore, he doesn't know anything... because you can't compare something to nothing and reveal its nature.

So, how does God get to experience God? What if God took his identity and created a gajillion elements of His own self. Let's call one of those elements of His identity, "Adam" and another element of His identity "Steve" and another element "Jennifer" and anothe... you get the idea. By "splitting" into an immeasurable number of elements (each of which is a representation of the source, yet completely unique from all of the other elements) He is (in-essence) able to "know" himself (as each part is compared to each other part) yet, each part is a fully alive aspect of God ("the Kingdom of Heaven is within you"... etc.)

Does it strike anybody else weird that when God was asked his name, he said "I am" - such that when you say the name of God, you are literally talking about yourself. "Hey... I was praying to I am the other day" just sounds weird. Why wouldn't he say that his name was something that we could refer to externally?... well, maybe he's not external at all... maybe the Kingdom of Heaven is truly within each of us.

All this is to say that I believe that God wants... to know God. And that we each have that same want - we each want to truly know God.

I Cor 4:1

I want to know the secrets of God.

[middletree]

Mark:

If I'm reading you right, you are saying that we are all God. I hope not. Very new Age, and very much like what the serpent said to eve to talk her into sinning, a lie that we're al still suffering from.


If you are saying that we all reflect God, then I'm with you.

BTW, I think that as long as you have the word Gay in your username, you're going to have someone bring up the topic of homosexuality. WhenI first saw your original post, the thought crossed my mind to say what Tulip said. I resisted, but the point is, it was not surprising to see him say it. And if he didn't, someone else would have.

When someone takes a contraversial stand, and puts it into their username so that anyone who sees their post is reminded of it, then that person should not be surprised to hear it brought up. I mean, if I put vegetarian, or "pro-gun-control" in my username, then I'd expect any thread I created to get hijacked.

[Psalm25Gomer]

I want to know the secrets of God.



If you want to know...ask God.

And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

Through the Holy Spirit....

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:10

[VanTil]

What if we live in a universe that is based on duality (stay with me here)...

But we don't.


if you want to experience hot, you need to know what cold is - if you want to know wet, you need to know what dry is (ask a fish what it's like to be wet... they don't have an answer for that - mostly because they're fish... and fish don't talk - but I digress)

For this premise to hold true there would have had to have been pre-fall sin at creation which God Himself declared good. You would have to contend that Adam experienced nothing before the fall. The Biblical account of creation doesn't support your premise though. Since the rest of your post rest on this premise if it doesn't hold the whole argument falls.


But when there was nothing but God ("In the beginning...") - there was nothing but... God. And God didn't have anything to compare himself to, because there was nothing but him.

Before creation the ontological trinity self-sufficiently existed though. There was no need in God that caused creation, He was not lonely or in need of something to compare Himself to in order to derive meaning. God is self-sustaining and gives meaning to all else (in Him we live and move and have our being... Acts 17).


Therefore, he doesn't know anything... because you can't compare something to nothing and reveal its nature.

This makes God (a.) mutable, in that He is not eternally all-knowing if He doesn't know anything prior to creation (b.) dependent on something outside of himself for existence, in which case He could not have created to begin with if His existence is dependent on a point of reference to Himself.


So, how does God get to experience God? What if God took his identity and created a gajillion elements of His own self. Let's call one of those elements of His identity, "Adam" and another element of His identity "Steve" and another element "Jennifer" and anothe... you get the idea. By "splitting" into an immeasurable number of elements (each of which is a representation of the source, yet completely unique from all of the other elements) He is (in-essence) able to "know" himself (as each part is compared to each other part) yet, each part is a fully alive aspect of God ("the Kingdom of Heaven is within you"... etc.)

There's a doctrine called perichoresis that states that the persons of the trinity share in the life of the others so that none are isolated or completely independent of the others. God had no need to create "elements of himself" to have an identity. He is eternally self-sufficient.


Does it strike anybody else weird that when God was asked his name, he said "I am" - such that when you say the name of God, you are literally talking about yourself. "Hey... I was praying to I am the other day" just sounds weird. Why wouldn't he say that his name was something that we could refer to externally?... well, maybe he's not external at all... maybe the Kingdom of Heaven is truly within each of us.

Is that the only name God is called in the Bible? It seems you are putting a whole lot of weight on your interpretation of what "I am" means. Unwarranted interpretation I would argue.


All this is to say that I believe that God wants... to know God. And that we each have that same want - we each want to truly know God.

Paul (and the Psalmist) tell us that no one seeks God, that no one, without the work of the Holy Spirit wants to seek God.


I want to know the secrets of God.

Duet. 29.29

"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of the law."

What does God want?

With respect to his decretive will, nothing. He lacks nothing and is in want of nothing. He is sovereign and depends on no one.

With respect to His prescriptive will, He wants us to obey his commands.

[Howlin' Wolf]

gaychristian

dont aSK a question like "what does God want?" and not expect me to tell you that he doesnt want you to be gay. if it offends you, then good. if i read you correctly, the i presume you feel nothing is wrong with homosexuality. it seems to me that you take God and fit him into the box that you want. this is very dangerous. and it also seems to me that the people of this board coddle you with kid gloves because they dont want to offend you and be "those kind of christians". well i dont work that way.

to answer your inital question another way, God doesnt want me looking at playboys and hustlers. lust, adultery, homosexuality, and molestation are forms of sexual sin. just because you lust after dudes doesnt make you any different from me, so i am not condemning you to hell. but God doesnt want you to be gay, and i dont care what you have molded scripture to say to support your lifestyle, the truth isnt contingent on what you want

[Col. Mustard]

gaychristian

dont aSK a question like "what does God want?" and not expect me to tell you that he doesnt want you to be gay. if it offends you, then good. if i read you correctly, the i presume you feel nothing is wrong with homosexuality. it seems to me that you take God and fit him into the box that you want. this is very dangerous. and it also seems to me that the people of this board coddle you with kid gloves because they dont want to offend you and be "those kind of christians". well i dont work that way.

to answer your inital question another way, God doesnt want me looking at playboys and hustlers. lust, adultery, homosexuality, and molestation are forms of sexual sin. just because you lust after dudes doesnt make you any different from me, so i am not condemning you to hell. but God doesnt want you to be gay, and i dont care what you have molded scripture to say to support your lifestyle, the truth isnt contingent on what you want

i disagree with you and anyone else that think it's wrong, there. i don't think that i've ever heard fact of God not wanting people to be gay, olny opinion. i personally have nothing against it, and i think that it's a persons personal desicion, and that if you're gay, or bi, or a lesbian, i don't think that God looks at you any differently, and i also don't think that anyone else should. One of my friends boyfriend said that gay people can't be christian, im not saying that you said that, but i think that that is just so wrong, and goes to show how crittical people are getting to be on the issue.
Mark, i tip my hat to you for not being emmbaressed by the way you feel. or, at least i would if i had one :D
Jen

[larryl]

i disagree with you and anyone else that think it's wrong, there. i don't think that i've ever heard fact of God not wanting people to be gay, olny opinion.
Jen


please read the story of sodom and gomorrha. it is not an opinion.

also, read

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[zhazha]

middletree--while i understand what you are saying when you responded with the whole "if it's in your username" gig, however, i think it would be more appropriate to discuss the topic of homosexuality, or any other topic, for that matter, outside of this particular thread--because gaychristian posted the topic "what does god want?", it doesn't mean it's open fire season on him. why not write to him, personally and really talk to him about his life??? that's a questions i would pose to tulip, as well. instead of firing out, what seems like angry responses (and they do seem angry to me, i could be totally wrong), why not open up a real conversation with someone, get to know them??? and i am not saying to "coddle" anyone, at all, i'm saying, in love, come to someone that you disagree with and have a discussion.

tulip--you said "if it offends you, then good." i honestly don't think jesus would say that--seriously--i know, that probably sounds like a lame, wwjd, bracelet saying, but, truthfully, do you really think christ himself, or god would say to someone, "if it offends you, then good."!?! i don't....as a matter of fact, i don't see anywhere in the bible that says, "if i've offended you, then good." please, correct me if i am wrong.....truly, i am not trying to get you fired up or anything like that, i just really believe throwing darts isn't the way to go here.

i think god wants us to love. god first, and others as self.
Luke 10:27--He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

that's what god wants. love. when we truly start to LOVE god, and ourselves and one another, we will begin to see the biggest revolution of all...and we will begin to see what god wants....everything outside of this kind of love, doesn't matter....it just doesn't.

[Howlin' Wolf]

i disagree with you and anyone else that think it's wrong, there. i don't think that i've ever heard fact of God not wanting people to be gay, olny opinion. i personally have nothing against it, and i think that it's a persons personal desicion, and that if you're gay, or bi, or a lesbian, i don't think that God looks at you any differently, and i also don't think that anyone else should. One of my friends boyfriend said that gay people can't be christian, im not saying that you said that, but i think that that is just so wrong, and goes to show how crittical people are getting to be on the issue.
Mark, i tip my hat to you for not being emmbaressed by the way you feel. or, at least i would if i had one :D
Jen

postmodernism rears its ugly head again

"i dont care what the bible says. i feel this way and so i am right. and God is on my side, because the truth is contingent on me"

[zhazha]

i read something today that was interesting from

http://blurty.com/users/hansel

"and weak theology breeds weak knowledge of grace. and a weak knowledge of grace, breeds a legalistic dogma "

hmm.

[Col. Mustard]

postmodernism rears its ugly head again

"i dont care what the bible says. i feel this way and so i am right. and God is on my side, because the truth is contingent on me"
so just cause you feel that way it makes it right? sry i missed the thing about the homosexuals in the bible. but it dosn't say that just cause you feel that way it makes it right.

[middletree]

middletree--while i understand what you are saying when you responded with the whole "if it's in your username" gig, however, i think it would be more appropriate to discuss the topic of homosexuality, or any other topic, for that matter, outside of this particular thread--because gaychristian posted the topic "what does god want?", it doesn't mean it's open fire season on him.


I said that as long as he uses a username here at the boards that has something that he knows is a controversial topic in it, and when he knows that he is taking a stance that is the opposite of what 95% of the people here take on that extremely volatile topic, he shouldn't be surprised, especially if he asks and open-ended question like "What does God want?"

why not write to him, personally and really talk to him about his life???


Well, now you're speaking out of turn, because you are assuming I haven't. I mean, you have 4 posts, total, which means you're new here. But you say something about what I ought to do, when you have no way of knowing if I have already done so. In fact, we've had other threads here where it was discussed with Mark. In fact, I am waiting for an answer from Mark on at least one question.

Also, I didn't mention homosexuality in this thread; Tulip did. I addressed Mark's actual post, then added that part about why I think he should not have been surprised that somebody said what Tulip said. If it occurred to me the first 5 seconds after reading Mark's opening post, and I'm pretty slow, then it surely would have occurred to someone else.

Mark is a good guy, and takes his punches here rather well.

[ICarlson99]

middletree--while i understand what you are saying when you responded with the whole "if it's in your username" gig, however, i think it would be more appropriate to discuss the topic of homosexuality, or any other topic, for that matter, outside of this particular thread--because gaychristian posted the topic "what does god want?", it doesn't mean it's open fire season on him. why not write to him, personally and really talk to him about his life??? that's a questions i would pose to tulip, as well. instead of firing out, what seems like angry responses (and they do seem angry to me, i could be totally wrong), why not open up a real conversation with someone, get to know them??? and i am not saying to "coddle" anyone, at all, i'm saying, in love, come to someone that you disagree with and have a discussion.

tulip--you said "if it offends you, then good." i honestly don't think jesus would say that--seriously--i know, that probably sounds like a lame, wwjd, bracelet saying, but, truthfully, do you really think christ himself, or god would say to someone, "if it offends you, then good."!?! i don't....as a matter of fact, i don't see anywhere in the bible that says, "if i've offended you, then good." please, correct me if i am wrong.....truly, i am not trying to get you fired up or anything like that, i just really believe throwing darts isn't the way to go here.

i think god wants us to love. god first, and others as self.
Luke 10:27--He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

that's what god wants. love. when we truly start to LOVE god, and ourselves and one another, we will begin to see the biggest revolution of all...and we will begin to see what god wants....everything outside of this kind of love, doesn't matter....it just doesn't.

Loving someone means correcting them when they're wrong. There are also correct ways and incorrect ways to correct someone. But pointing out scripture contradicting one's behavior is not un-loving. On the contrary.

Excusing or justifying sinful behavior is the same as causing someone to stumble. It is un-loving NOT to point out sinful behavior. And of course it should be done out of love, not out of superiority. But it SHOULD be done - we are called to correct, rebuke and encourage each other.

[zhazha]

i don't know why anyone would have to take any punches from anyone on a christian site....i don't understand that at all.

and, i think it's great that you have sent mark an e-mail--i really do! and, i was referring to tulip, for the most part, in that post....sorry it all ran together.

also, i'm not new here--i changed my name and password. but, that's beside the point. :)

i do think it is sad though, that a thread that poses "what does god want?" turned into this....i guess i am just discouraged by the immature behavior of people (not you, middletree) pumping their fists and turning to lynch mob mentality over it all. it's like the guy that stands in the middle of the park and yells scripture out at people--while he may be yelling truth, that's what he's doing--yelling, and it's ridiculous and laughable. i am going to heed my own words and private message tulip.

i still think god wants love. :) thanks for taking mature approach, middletree. i respect you for that and will listen to your words (or, more to the point, read them).

[zhazha]

Loving someone means correcting them when they're wrong. There are also correct ways and incorrect ways to correct someone. But pointing out scripture contradicting one's behavior is not un-loving. On the contrary.

Excusing or justifying sinful behavior is the same as causing someone to stumble. It is un-loving NOT to point out sinful behavior. And of course it should be done out of love, not out of superiority. But it SHOULD be done - we are called to correct, rebuke and encourage each other.

that's what i am saying, though, icarlson99, i don't see ANY love in some of the things that have been expressed. i only see finger pointing and judging. i see people that are so blinded by legalism that they have forgotten to love.

and, i do agree with you--just as my dad and mom used to correct me, because they love me--we should also do so with one another--however, i don't think that means with people you really don't know that well--someone sees a username and uses it to spurt out in anger and mockery...we are NOT called to that.

thanks for your input--it's really good! :)

[ICarlson99]

that's what i am saying, though, icarlson99, i don't see ANY love in some of the things that have been expressed. i only see finger pointing and judging. i see people that are so blinded by legalism that they have forgotten to love.

and, i do agree with you--just as my dad and mom used to correct me, because they love me--we should also do so with one another--however, i don't think that means with people you really don't know that well--someone sees a username and uses it to spurt out in anger and mockery...we are NOT called to that.

thanks for your input--it's really good! :)

Thanks, but.....;)

Aren't you pointing your finger and judging? Loving someone doesn't always come in the form of tactfulness (although we should certainly try). Jesus certainly rebuked his disciples, and his disciples rebuked each other.

It's too bad the thread is gone where some of us talked about homosexuality with GayChristian (and I think he started it, or at least started the conversation within a larger thread) - I think it was quite respectful and honest, and I think he did too (but I'll let him speak for himself).

[middletree]

i see people that are so blinded by legalism that they have forgotten to love.


I have not gotten into the homosexual aspect of Mark's life in this thread. But I would submit to you that those who do, do so out of caring for him as a professing brother in Christ; they know that true joy will come from living life God's way. It is totally out of love when someone points out to a professing Christian that some sort of sexual sin (whether it's hetero- or homo-) will only do them harm.

Remember, when Paul found someone like this, he realized that this person had gone so far that they weren't planning on coming back into a life of holiness, so Paul decided to deliver him over to Satan, for the purpose of saving him (1 Corinthians 5:5)

[zhazha]

Thanks, but.....;)

Aren't you pointing your finger and judging? Loving someone doesn't always come in the form of tactfulness (although we should certainly try). Jesus certainly rebuked his disciples, and his disciples rebuked each other.

It's too bad the thread is gone where some of us talked about homosexuality with GayChristian (and I think he started it, or at least started the conversation within a larger thread) - I think it was quite respectful and honest, and I think he did too (but I'll let him speak for himself).

i'm seriously, not judging or pointing my finger...i am just saying, with some of the folks' responses, they are really harsh and don't seem loving at all.

and, you're right, it IS too bad and yes, there was another thread regarding homosexuality that was started by mark....but that was a completely different thread than this one....anyway....

[ICarlson99]

i'm seriously, not judging or pointing my finger...i am just saying, with some of the folks' responses, they are really harsh and don't seem loving at all.

That's not a judgement?

Okay, enough of that - but I DO think this is all relevant to the original thread. Part of living a Godly life is how we relate to and interact with each other - loving yes, but loving does NOT meaning condoning sinful behavior (I know you're not saying that). And in fact it requires us to point out (some call it judging, but that's not really an accurate term I think) sinful behavior, but to do it with encouragement (and that can often be the hard part).

Correct, rebuke, encourage - these are also our callings - and it's done because we love each other (not necessarily because we like each other though :) )

[Mr.Elwood]

not a trick question, just an inquiry as to what we all think about what God wants.

What does God want?

-Mark
getting back on Topic and to stop talking about the Author in Third Person...when he is not here to contribute..

Just a nudge people... :D

[zhazha]

thanks, mr. elwood! good reminder!! :D

[GayChristian]

Wow, I leave for an afternoon and come back to quite an uproar!

Please be aware that when I lead a sentence that begins with "what if...." that exactly what I mean... "what if" - I'm not saying that I subscribe to that particular belief or not - perhaps I'm bringing that concept out to stir up discussion and thought.

I sure hope to constantly be contemplating who God is, what God wants, what is my role in this planet, etc...

I think it's entirely possible to discuss how the universe works without having all of the answers - it's just a discussion, people ;)

........

I sure do love this group of people, our different opinions, passions, beliefs and such. Every one of us is on a different little segment of our own journey.

I love to be challenge and be challenged by my friends and family - and to constantly strive to learn more about God's nature. If I wanted a less meaningful discussion I would ask "why do dog's have black lips?"... which is a question that begs to be asked, but perhaps for another time.

:D

Well, I'm gonna go take care of some emails now and write some more later.

Peace out!
-Mark

[sirlok]

Knowing God by J.I. Packer comes to mind in where he highlights these three scriptures in Ch. 3 of his book.
God Bless all!!!

John 17:3
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah 9:23,24
23 Thus says the LORD:
“ Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
Let not the mighty man glory in his might,
Nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
24 But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,
That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
For in these I delight,” says the LORD.

[Howlin' Wolf]

i read something today that was interesting from

http://blurty.com/users/hansel

"and weak theology breeds weak knowledge of grace. and a weak knowledge of grace, breeds a legalistic dogma "

hmm.


dont be vague about it. come out and say it

[MadCatholicGomer]

When someone takes a contraversial stand, and puts it into their username so that anyone who sees their post is reminded of it, then that person should not be surprised to hear it brought up. I mean, if I put vegetarian, or "pro-gun-control" in my username, then I'd expect any thread I created to get hijacked.

Agreed... but I like my name. :)

[middletree]

Agreed... but I like my name. :)
Yeah, about your name:

What are you so mad about?

[MadCatholicGomer]

Yeah, about your name:

What are you so mad about?

Mad = Crazy... I would have been just CatholicGomer, but someone already had that name.

[zhazha]

dont be vague about it. come out and say it

i visited your blog site and i found that quote, which, you know. prior to that quote is this bit of information:

"...that leads me to my initial issue with her statement and with which the way it sounded to me. why is it that christians only want to focus on actions? so what if we were living in an apartment together?? would God refuse to bless our relationship?? would he take back the righteousness that he has imputed onto us??
now dont get me wrong. i am not advocating sin. i hate sin, especially my own. but at the same time, i will not measure my spiritual growth by how consistent my prayer life is, or how consistently i read the word or attend church. my proximity to God is measured on how much i simply abide in him. sure those things help a ton in mving me closer, but i cannot measure spiritual growth by how much I do. because its not about me. its not about how well i keep certain rules. that is called legalism. and that is in stark contradiction to Grace. of course, i dont have it all figured out. but the fact that i dont, tells me that i'm on the right path. the fact that rules mean absolutely nothing to me equpis me to walk in Grace and not wonder where God is? and why am i still in the valley after good quality time with God. thats not what its about"

i think it is interesting, that you would speak of god's grace for yourself and not extend it to others....that's all. and, this is all i will say regarding this particular topic on this thread--i sent you a private message last week--we can further discuss things that way, as to not clog up this thread....

[Howlin' Wolf]

i visited your blog site and i found that quote, which, you know. prior to that quote is this bit of information:

"...that leads me to my initial issue with her statement and with which the way it sounded to me. why is it that christians only want to focus on actions? so what if we were living in an apartment together?? would God refuse to bless our relationship?? would he take back the righteousness that he has imputed onto us??
now dont get me wrong. i am not advocating sin. i hate sin, especially my own. but at the same time, i will not measure my spiritual growth by how consistent my prayer life is, or how consistently i read the word or attend church. my proximity to God is measured on how much i simply abide in him. sure those things help a ton in mving me closer, but i cannot measure spiritual growth by how much I do. because its not about me. its not about how well i keep certain rules. that is called legalism. and that is in stark contradiction to Grace. of course, i dont have it all figured out. but the fact that i dont, tells me that i'm on the right path. the fact that rules mean absolutely nothing to me equpis me to walk in Grace and not wonder where God is? and why am i still in the valley after good quality time with God. thats not what its about"

i think it is interesting, that you would speak of god's grace for yourself and not extend it to others....that's all. and, this is all i will say regarding this particular topic on this thread--i sent you a private message last week--we can further discuss things that way, as to not clog up this thread....

we arent friends, so we will discuss nothing over PM. how have i withheld grace? have i condemned people to hell? or did i react harshly to blasphemy?

am i to administer grace to heretics or just the church? seeing as jesus died to save the church only, then why should i worry about offending a false teacher??

[GayChristian]

seeing as jesus died to save the church only

in here lies the rub, in my view. You seem to be coming from a perspective where God only is in it for the elite few who are acting in accordance to the rules you have subscribed to. What I suggest is ((gasp)) God Loves Everybody Equally.

I've asked this question in other threads, and perhaps it needs to be re-addressed somewhere. In John 3:16, whom does the word "whosoever" refer to? Is the phrase, "whosoever believes in him" or is the phrase, "whosever obeys my commands"? The stance of the church tends to be something to the effect of, "well... if you believe, then you'll obey". Great, I also subscribe to that - but (and try not to jump to a conclusion here) - Does God *want* your obedience? In other words, if you are disobedient, does that cause God to lack something? Is God's self-esteem based on my actions? or your actions? Is God's character damaged if choose to take a path that isn't the usual path? No, we shouldn't sin such that grace abounds, but He's not calling for obedience as much (in the New Testament) as He is calling for a Universal recognition of a Love that surpasses understanding.

Mother Teresa was asked how she did what she did for so long, what was her secret? "I believe in person to person. Every person is Christ to me, and since there is only one Jesus, that person is the one person in the world at that moment."

For me, it's all about love, not all about obedience. Obedience is there for protection, love is the root of obedience. Focus on Love and everything else falls in line.

[ICarlson99]

For me, it's all about love, not all about obedience. Obedience is there for protection, love is the root of obedience. Focus on Love and everything else falls in line.

I'm not sure what you mean by "love is the root of obedience" - maybe you mean the same thing as me, but I think IF you love, THEN you will obey (to me that means love comes first, then obedience). If you just obey someone "because they say so", then that's legalism.

Not to get "Clintonian", but what do you mean by "love"? As in "it's all about love". That can mean a lot of different things, just wondering where you're coming from with that.

[GayChristian]

I'm not sure what you mean by "love is the root of obedience" - maybe you mean the same thing as me, but I think IF you love, THEN you will obey (to me that means love comes first, then obedience). If you just obey someone "because they say so", then that's legalism.

Not to get "Clintonian", but what do you mean by "love"? As in "it's all about love". That can mean a lot of different things, just wondering where you're coming from with that.

I think we're speaking the same language. Obedience for obedience' sake isn't anything but slavery. Obedience based in affection and love for the outcome and safety of all involved is what I'm referring to when I say that love is the root of obedience.

What do I mean by Love? Good question. I think this might be different for different people, so I'm only going to speak for me. When I'm acting in love, there's a difference in intention and motivation from the inside out. Rich Mullin's "If I stand" has a couple of references to love that always struck me very deeply. "There's a love that is fiercer than the love between friends, more gentle than a mother's when her baby's at her side". Love looks for others before it looks for it's own selfish ambitions. Love recognizes the beauty in the ordinary. The samaratin wasn't looking for Kudos from others, he was simply acting in love. Love is consistent and doesn't manipulate for self-edification. Love listens before speaking.

When I think of Love, I simply think of God - not in a trite "'God is Love' bumper sticker or posable hummel doll" kinda way (my apologies to the Hummel doll collectors - it was just an illustration) - but in a "there is nothing about God that isn't Love" kinda way.

All of which is dependent on what your definition of "is" is. Sorry... had to make a Bill reference there somewhere.

there's plenty of other stuff to say about Love... God... and the like, but I've got to get going to work.

In God's Grip,
-Mark

[ICarlson99]

I think we're speaking the same language. Obedience for obedience' sake isn't anything but slavery. Obedience based in affection and love for the outcome and safety of all involved is what I'm referring to when I say that love is the root of obedience.

Agreed - we obey because we love God but we acknowledge that the laws we obey are for our own good because God loves us.


What do I mean by Love? Good question. I think this might be different for different people, so I'm only going to speak for me. When I'm acting in love, there's a difference in intention and motivation from the inside out. Rich Mullin's "If I stand" has a couple of references to love that always struck me very deeply. "There's a love that is fiercer than the love between friends, more gentle than a mother's when her baby's at her side". Love looks for others before it looks for it's own selfish ambitions. Love recognizes the beauty in the ordinary. The samaratin wasn't looking for Kudos from others, he was simply acting in love. Love is consistent and doesn't manipulate for self-edification. Love listens before speaking.

When I think of Love, I simply think of God - not in a trite "'God is Love' bumper sticker or posable hummel doll" kinda way (my apologies to the Hummel doll collectors - it was just an illustration) - but in a "there is nothing about God that isn't Love" kinda way.

Yes, thanks for the clarification - I agree that love deals with the motivations of one's actions, not one's actions alone. I only asked because terms like "love" can be misused like "tolerance" and "diversity" where "love" becomes (effectively) anything goes, which is exactly the opposite of love.


All of which is dependent on what your definition of "is" is. Sorry... had to make a Bill reference there somewhere.

:D He he, well-played

[Howlin' Wolf]

in here lies the rub, in my view. You seem to be coming from a perspective where God only is in it for the elite few who are acting in accordance to the rules you have subscribed to.

and what "rules" have i ascribed to? i am not a legalist. i'm not a jehovah's witness. so what rules have i said people must follow in order to be saved? when have i ever said only an "elite few" will be saved?

I've asked this question in other threads, and perhaps it needs to be re-addressed somewhere. In John 3:16, whom does the word "whosoever" refer to? Is the phrase, "whosoever believes in him" or is the phrase, "whosever obeys my commands"? The stance of the church tends to be something to the effect of, "well... if you believe, then you'll obey". Great, I also subscribe to that - but (and try not to jump to a conclusion here) - Does God *want* your obedience? In other words, if you are disobedient, does that cause God to lack something? Is God's self-esteem based on my actions? or your actions? Is God's character damaged if choose to take a path that isn't the usual path? No, we shouldn't sin such that grace abounds, but He's not calling for obedience as much (in the New Testament) as He is calling for a Universal recognition of a Love that surpasses understanding

"whoever" means exactly what it says. whoever believes will be saved. the church is comprised of said believers. the church has received salvation and is being transformed into the likeness of christ.

In John 17:6,9,19 Jesus prays, "I have manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest me out of the world; Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to me...I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom Thou hast given me, for they are thine...And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth."
No, we shouldn't sin such that grace abounds, but He's not calling for obedience as much (in the New Testament) as He is calling for a Universal recognition of a Love that surpasses understanding.
too bad this view isnt in scripture. read john 15. jesus is pretty clear about obedience. jesus is also pretty clear about the consequences of sin. so if God loves everybody equally, then why would he send people to hell? you do believe in hell dont you?

love doesnt give you an excuse to sin

[GayChristian]

Is the Universe friendly or hostile?

[ICarlson99]

Is the Universe friendly or hostile?

Neither. The "universe" doesn't have a personality.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Neither. The "universe" doesn't have a personality.
right

and for that matter, the people of the universe are evil and dead in their transgressions

[zhazha]

and what "rules" have i ascribed to? i am not a legalist. i'm not a jehovah's witness. so what rules have i said people must follow in order to be saved? when have i ever said only an "elite few" will be saved?

"whoever" means exactly what it says. whoever believes will be saved. the church is comprised of said believers. the church has received salvation and is being transformed into the likeness of christ.

too bad this view isnt in scripture. read john 15. jesus is pretty clear about obedience. jesus is also pretty clear about the consequences of sin. so if God loves everybody equally, then why would he send people to hell? you do believe in hell dont you?

love doesnt give you an excuse to sin

I think because you have advertised yourself as a Calvinist, which generally believe that some are elected into salvation and some are not--predestination. Unless, I am wrong--GayChristian??? Is that what you were referring to???

God does love everyone equally. We send ourselves to Hell, when we do not choose Christ.

And, you are correct, Tulip, that love doesn't give you an excuse to sin--being human, we DO sin. It's an unfortunate part of being human, however, God's grace continues to wipe the slate clean....I am, in no way saying to go out of your way to sin or live against what scriptures say....I think you probably said it best in your blog:

"...i beat myself up because of sin. and the church beats up "sinners" because of their sin. see here's the thing. we all sin. we are all sinners. so why not just love the sinner?? why does his sin have anything to do with how i treat him? why does it have anything to do with how i VIEW him? often times, when someone goes public with their sin, that sin follows their name. "oh thats jason. he's an adulterer". the same could be said for every single human being. i am Jason the adulterer, the pornographer, the proud, the arrogant, the unloving, the drunkard, the cusser, the lover of gangster rap, the angry, the hateful, the spiteful, the manipulative, the greedy, the lazy, the gossip and a slew of other things. but i am Jason the redeemed. the saved. the one loved by Christ. and my sin has done nothing to keep the Lord from pursuing me as his bride. so why do we judge others in the name of love? love the sinner, hate the sin. what the hell does that mean anyways??? i love my dad. he's a sinner. i still love him. i dont see him as a sinner. i see him as my dad. i love j-ho and chunky. i dont see them as sinners. i see them as my friends that i will always be able to count on.

so why not just love the sinner. try to meet the sinner's needs. understand the sinner. be there for the sinner. help the sinner. avoid cramming the bible down the sinner's throat and try to cram the love of christ down their throat. that is what changes people. that is what God delights in and uses."

beautiful.

[middletree]

so why not just love the sinner. try to meet the sinner's needs. understand the sinner. be there for the sinner. help the sinner.

You know, Mark asked what God wants, and Tulip answered that God doesn't want you to be gay. That is loving Mark. That is meeting his needs, and helping him.

avoid cramming the bible down the sinner's throat and try to cram the love of christ down their throat. that is what changes people. that is what God delights in and uses."

It is in the love of Christ that someone tells someone else that their beavior is not what's going to bring them joy, or that their actions will build a gap between them and God. And for the record, quoting scripture that you don't like does not equate cramming it down one's throat.

It is when we characterize posts with descriptions that are exaggerated on inaccurate, such as the "cramming" accusation, that these threads go the wrong direction. Tulip showed more love in his post, more respect in the way he worded it, than you did in this post.

[zhazha]

i was quoting tulip 5 points....

[Col. Mustard]

we should really get off Marks back about being gay. he didn't ask if being gay is right or not, and that seems to be just about all that we're talkin about. and i think that we all gave our opinion. :D

[Howlin' Wolf]

we should really get off Marks back about being gay. he didn't ask if being gay is right or not, and that seems to be just about all that we're talkin about. and i think that we all gave our opinion. :D

nobody is on mark's back because he is gay. its because he thinks that homosexuality isnt sinful

[Col. Mustard]

well his beliefs are his belifes, and were not going to change them, so we should probley stop trying to.
(i read though that and it sounded rude. please don't read it like that, i don't mean it to be.)

[mat1583]

well his beliefs are his belifes, and were not going to change them, so we should probley stop trying to.
(i read though that and it sounded rude. please don't read it like that, i don't mean it to be.)

Obviously Paul didn't think the same as you. That's why he wrote 2 letters to the Corinthians as well as the other epistles. In the same letter Paul contained the love of Christ and also warnings about those Christians that were still living in sin. It's not "unchristian" to tell a brother or sister in Christ that it's bad for them to still be living in the same sins. It's part of our job as Christians. I don't see why some people have a hard time understanding that.

-washboard

[Col. Mustard]

Obviously Paul didn't think the same as you. That's why he wrote 2 letters to the Corinthians as well as the other epistles. In the same letter Paul contained the love of Christ and also warnings about those Christians that were still living in sin. It's not "unchristian" to tell a brother or sister in Christ that it's bad for them to still be living in the same sins. It's part of our job as Christians. I don't see why some people have a hard time understanding that.

-washboard
it's not that i don't understand it, i do. but here is not the place, where others can read it. if u wanna tell him his belifes are wrong send him a pm, instead of putting it where others can read and critizize (how ever u spell that)

*please don't read this one the wrong way either. i don't mean it to sound rude. that's the thing with typin on computers, if u read it a different way then it was ment to be, it can get ugly.
;)

[prayercloth sis]

What do you do with Leviticus 20:13?
If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman both of them have committed an abomination.......

I know that this thread is about what God wants... but there are some things he doesn't overlook. I think he wants us to read the word and obey it and if I recall correctly he created Adam to commune with. He desires a relationship with us.

God Bless you all.

[mat1583]

it's not that i don't understand it, i do. but here is not the place, where others can read it. if u wanna tell him his belifes are wrong send him a pm, instead of putting it where others can read and critizize (how ever u spell that)

*please don't read this one the wrong way either. i don't mean it to sound rude. that's the thing with typin on computers, if u read it a different way then it was ment to be, it can get ugly.
;)

It would be different if he only posted his beliefs in a PM though. I don't know about you, but I believe homosexuality is definitely a sin. I also believe that if you are living in sin, you can't just say it's okay to keep living in it or that God just tolerates it. That does not match up with scripture or Christianity; therefore we find it necessary to correct him out in the open. If we didn't, someone might just come on here thinking we're all OK with Christians being homosexuals, when we really aren't OK with it. Yes, we still love them as brothers and sisters, but we cannot just let them "do their own thing" and continue living in sin and not be repentant about it.

and I know you're not trying to be mean or ugly. You don't have to apologize everytime. We're having a discussion here. :)

-washboard

[middletree]

What do you do with Leviticus 20:13?

Rhonie:

Although I regard homosexual behavior as sin, this verse is not convincing to me at all. It's part of the Mosaic Law, and if you want to use this as one of your reasons, you're going to have to make it clear that you eat all kosher foods, put teens to death for smarting off to their parents, etc.

So do you eat bacon?

[prayercloth sis]

Abomination is abomination no matter if it's in the old or new testament. There were other scriptures already posted concerning this matter. This one is very specific. Eating bacon is not an abomination. Just had a BLT. Murder is a sin period. I just feel that the old testament backs up the new. Didn't mean to start an argument. Just stating my veiwpoint like everyone else.

God Bless.

[mat1583]

Abomination is abomination no matter if it's in the old or new testament. There were other scriptures already posted concerning this matter. This one is very specific. Eating bacon is not an abomination. Just had a BLT. Murder is a sin period. I just feel that the old testament backs up the new. Didn't mean to start an argument. Just stating my veiwpoint like everyone else.

God Bless.

Exactly what I wanted to say as well. Well put, and with minimal words too :)

-washboard

[middletree]

I don't want to argue either. I am just saying that if I were a fence-sitter, that verse wouldn't sway me any.

I didn't say anything about it being OT. I said it was Mosaic Law. That covers only a part of the OT, and it covers part of the NT.

It was a set of laws given to a particular group of people that I never belonged to. It's analogous to a cop pulling me over and telling me that I violted a Russian law. I'd just reply that I live in the US.

This is relevant because Mark belongs to a group of people who have answers for each and every verse you can cite. He has posted it in other threads. To me, the ones they use against 1 Corinthians 6 and other NT verses are much weaker than the point I just made about Mosaic law.

I'd suggest exploring your answer, if you were confronted by Mark or other pro-gay believers, about those NT verses.

[prayercloth sis]

I am very well aware of the other scriptures as well. This Mosaic law scripture is still the word of God,and I know that we are not under that law today but it is very specific. There are still wonderful values and morals in the old testament that I uphold. Therefore, I base my opinion on the word of God as a whole. If he hated this sin in Moses day the word says he is the same yesterday, today and forevermore. He changes not. My opinion ....he still hates this sin today.

[middletree]

I don't disagree that He hates this sin today. Never said otherwise.

[bky]

Micah 6:8

"And what does the LORD require of you? To love mercy, do justly and to walk humbly with your God." :D

[ObiShawn]

I apparently do not understand your viewpoint or why you object to the scriptures from the old testament.


I am just saying that if I were a fence-sitter, that verse wouldn't sway me any.


And I agree with him. This guy (Gay Christian or what ever the name is) has found a scripture to counter every other scripture that some one uses to disprove the validity of homosexual Christanity.

The seemingly obvious contradiction of the scripture means that one of the two sides of the arguement are wrong and that the person in the wrong has a distorted view of the the Word is really saying. Distorted view or not, both sides believe they are right and no amount of debating or Biblical proof will sway either side.

Now, unless I am misunderstanding Middletree, it isn't that he objects to using OT verses, he just doesn't see the point in using a point of debate that isn't going to work.

That would be like cops using lazer tag guns instead of pistols. The bank robber is getting away, so teh cops pull out the lazer tag guns. They shoot but the robbers keep going. The cops shouldn't expect the robbers to stop because the lazer tag guns are ineffective. That may be a poor analogy, but it is all I can think of at the moment.

[prayercloth sis]

Point taken. Must have misread or misundersood something. Didn't mean to.

[prayercloth sis]

Thanks I get what you were saying now. I have never posted to this person before. Apparently you all have. I understand what you and Middletree are saying. I just can't grasp his (Gay Christian's) point of view at all.

[middletree]

Thanks I get what you were saying now. I have never posted to this person before. Apparently you all have. I understand what you and Middletree are saying. I just can't grasp his (Gay Christian's) point of view at all.
I think it's possibel to be a Christian and be in sexual sin, whether it's straight or gay. In fact, millions of Christian men are engaged in it in some form today. I think Mark is a true believer, but he thinks that God made him gay, and he thinks that it isn't sin. I disagree. But I don't think he's unsaved. Necessarily.

[ICarlson99]

I think it's possibel to be a Christian and be in sexual sin, whether it's straight or gay. In fact, millions of Christian men are engaged in it in some form today. I think Mark is a true believer, but he thinks that God made him gay, and he thinks that it isn't sin. I disagree. But I don't think he's unsaved. Necessarily.

That's the dilemma, isn't it?

It's not hard for a "believer" to convince themselves that their particular "sin" isn't really a sin for reasons X, Y, and Z. I was able to convince myself that fornication in my younger days wasn't really a sin because I genuinely cared about the girl, it's not like it was adultery (no marriage was involved) so it didn't violate any of the 10 Commandments, etc. Sometimes we can be too "educated" for our own good....

Was I a believer? I guess, technically - I knew what I was supposed to say at least. But was I saved? Hmmmm, I've no idea.

[middletree]

Being saved has nothing to do with whether or not we are currently sinning. Thank goodness.

[Tribal]

I think it's possibel to be a Christian and be in sexual sin, whether it's straight or gay. In fact, millions of Christian men are engaged in it in some form today.

Exactly.
Can you be a *gay* christian ? No. The Bible is pretty clear on that.

Can you be a christian that struggles with the sin of homosexuality (or any sexual sin)? Absolutely.

To openly sin & call it something else, or trying to justify it to yourself or others, just ain't gonna cut it.

[NotMyOwn]

I know that the word speaks of being turned over to a reprobate mind. Also, Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. You got me searching the word. Thanks.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not whats going on here. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is attributing the miracles of Christ to the devil.

[rossid]

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not whats going on here. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is attributing the miracles of Christ to the devil.
I didn't know that.

[prayercloth sis]

I had misread the post, so therefore after rereading it ,I deleted that post. I clearly understand what blasphemy is. I also know what abomination is too.

[bky]

... the point is simply this: did you accept Jesus as your personal LORD and Savior and live for him according to the way the Bible says we should?

Sin is sin. There are no excuses when you stand before God.

And being saved has EVERYTHING to do with it. Satan and all his demons believe in God and Jesus. They've seen Him face to face! (Job 1) It's one thing to BELIEVE and another to RECEIVE salvation. The ultimate goal is to fight for that salvation so that we might enter the Kingdom of God.

I forgot something. :D

Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that your life is easy now. Temptations come and when they do it's going to be up to you to fight them off. By giving in you discredit the cross. That's not to say that God won't forgive you but also IS NOT A LISCENCE TO SIN. You can't be a Christian on Sunday, smoke pot on Monday, chug beer on Tuesday and on Wednesday repent because "God understands and He'll forgive me". Read the book of Hebrews. THE WHOLE THING. Paul encourages the church because they were all new Christians and had no clue what to do.

[middletree]

... the point is simply this: did you accept Jesus as your personal LORD and Savior and live for him according to the way the Bible says we should?

Sin is sin. There are no excuses when you stand before God.


I disagree with this, or at least the way you worded it. When you stand before God, He will either see one who has sin in them, and who must be separated from Him forever, or He will see Jesus in you, and all your sin was paid for, in full.

And as for your last paragraph, there is nothing sinful about beer.

[prayercloth sis]

There's nothing sinful about beer? Your viewpoint please?

[prayercloth sis]

As posted by Tribal:

Can you be a gay Christian? No, the bible is clear on that.

Can you be a christain and struggle with the sin of homosexuality? Absolutely.



Scripturally speaking how do you come to this conclusion?

[larryl]

As posted by Tribal:

Can you be a gay Christian? No, the bible is clear on that.

Can you be a christain and struggle with the sin of homosexuality? Absolutely.



Scripturally speaking how do you come to this conclusion?


let me attempt to enter this here......

sin is sin....it's all equal. the fact that someone struggles with homosexual sin is no different that if i struggle with heterosexual sin.

would you doubt my salvation if i said i struggle with hetero sin? probably not. you would pray with me, tell me you love me, etc.

being openly gay, and claiming to be a christian is different.....it's saying you have chosen to live this life of sin (or, as in mark's case, contending that it is not a sin at all)......you are no longer struggling with it, you have given yourself over to it. much like if i just decide it's OK to go ahead and live with my girlfriend.....

[larryl]

There's nothing sinful about beer? Your viewpoint please?


my viewpoint here is simple......nothing wrong with having a beer now and then.

[ObiShawn]

my viewpoint here is simple......nothing wrong with having a beer now and then.



It doesn't matter what our view point is on drinking, (this isn't a stab at larryl, as the rest of the post will prove), the Word is very clear about it. The Bible never condemns drinking, only getting drunk. There's a huge difference between the two. Psalm 104:15 says that wine makes the heart merry.

We should have God's view, based on His Word, not some religious view, based on traditional doctrine.

[larryl]

It doesn't matter what our view point is on drinking, (this


i know, but she asked for "Your viewpoint please?"

had she asked for a scriptural viewpoint, i would have gien it :D

[middletree]

There's nothing sinful about beer? Your viewpoint please?
Keep in mind that I do not drink. My family has many alcoholics. My aunt is in prison right now for multiple DWI's. My father killed himself while drunk. I have every reason to hate alcohol and to want to conclude that nobody should drink. The only thing stopping me is, I don't get to decide what's sin and what isn't. God does, and His word never says it's sin.

In fact, when this comes up (and believe me, there have been some looooooonnnnnnng threads about this subject here), people always bring up Jesus turning water into wine as His first miracle. But even more relevant is the fact that He drank wine.

Matt 26:29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Since we know that Jesus never sinned, then we can logically conclude that alcoholic drinks are not verboten to us. A second thing we can conclude from this verse is that there will be drinking at the great Wedding Feast. A lot of current Christians are going to be shocked when we get there!

Of course, some people are so stuck in their anti-alcohol line of thought that they have come up with some idea that Jesus was talking about grape juice. In fact, this is untenable. Anyone with basic understanding of Greek will tell you that the verse above, as well as others, are referring to fermented wine.

This all brings to mind a larger issue of how some Christians that I grew up with will twist verses to fit their theology, and others who will rely on their experiences above the Word. My personal experiences with alcohol in my family cannot supercede what I see in the Word. God gets the last say on everything.

Hope that answers your question.

[Howlin' Wolf]

There's nothing sinful about beer? Your viewpoint please?

jesus and the apostles drank wine

please post scriptures that denounce alcohol....

[meak]

Keep in mind that I do not drink. My family has many alcoholics. My aunt is in prison right now for multiple DWI's. My father killed himself while drunk. I have every reason to hate alcohol and to want to conclude that nobody should drink. The only thing stopping me is, I don't get to decide what's sin and what isn't. God does, and His word never says it's sin.

In fact, when this comes up (and believe me, there have been some looooooonnnnnnng threads about this subject here), people always bring up Jesus turning water into wine as His first miracle. But even more relevant is the fact that He drank wine.

Matt 26:29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Since we know that Jesus never sinned, then we can logically conclude that alcoholic drinks are not verboten to us. A second thing we can conclude from this verse is that there will be drinking at the great Wedding Feast. A lot of current Christians are going to be shocked when we get there!

Of course, some people are so stuck in their anti-alcohol line of thought that they have come up with some idea that Jesus was talking about grape juice. In fact, this is untenable. Anyone with basic understanding of Greek will tell you that the verse above, as well as others, are referring to fermented wine.

This all brings to mind a larger issue of how some Christians that I grew up with will twist verses to fit their theology, and others who will rely on their experiences above the Word. My personal experiences with alcohol in my family cannot supercede what I see in the Word. God gets the last say on everything.

Hope that answers your question.

well, if i'm correct, there is a place in the bible that refers to new and old wine...again, if i'm correct, what is the difference between new and old wine? and how do you take this scripture; Matthew 27:34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. why did Jesus refuse to drink it? the only reason i have is because gall was in it which gave it the effect of being fermented...if there is another reason he wouldn't accept it i don't know what it would be. in luke the bible talks about elijah never being able to take wine or fermented drink. why does God place this strong conviction on him? and i'm genuinely asking these questions, i'm not trying to be pretentious. i, personally, will never drink just because i've gone my whole life without it so why start now and also because i believe wine and beer are two separate things. now, i don't know much about either so i could be very wrong. and again, i am genuinely speaking here, i'm not condemning or trying to say drinking is a sin. i know getting drunk is, i feel the bible is very clear on that but as for drinking, in itself, i can't say that, nor am i.

[middletree]

Good, valid questions.

The word used for gall there, the Greek word, means bile, or poison. It clearly is not alcohol.

That verse indicates He didn't drink it, but it wasn't because it was alcoholic, but because it would have made Him nauseous. And also because He had just said the night before that He wouldn't drink aymore until the wedding feast.

The new wine thing is specifically referring to the wineskin, not the wine. Once you had emptied a wineskin, you wouldn't fill it back up with wine, because the skin had gotten soft and lost its strength from holding the wine that was in there the first time. Jesus says that if you do this, the wineskin won't hold the refill. He was, of course, using this as a metaphor for you and me being a new creation. He didn't "change" our hearts when we got saved. We got a new heart.

[mat1583]

well, if i'm correct, there is a place in the bible that refers to new and old wine...again, if i'm correct, what is the difference between new and old wine? and how do you take this scripture; Matthew 27:34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. why did Jesus refuse to drink it? the only reason i have is because gall was in it which gave it the effect of being fermented...if there is another reason he wouldn't accept it i don't know what it would be. in luke the bible talks about elijah never being able to take wine or fermented drink. why does God place this strong conviction on him? and i'm genuinely asking these questions, i'm not trying to be pretentious. i, personally, will never drink just because i've gone my whole life without it so why start now and also because i believe wine and beer are two separate things. now, i don't know much about either so i could be very wrong. and again, i am genuinely speaking here, i'm not condemning or trying to say drinking is a sin. i know getting drunk is, i feel the bible is very clear on that but as for drinking, in itself, i can't say that, nor am i.


John 19:29 & 30

A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop, and brought it to his mouth. 30. When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up his spirit.

If you've ever tried recorking wine and saving it, you'd know what sour wine tastes like. "Sour" is not referring to alcohol content, and neither is gall. It's referring to the bitterness due to it going bad. You probably wouldn't want to drink sour wine no matter how thirsty you were...although in this scripture it says Jesus did receive it.

-washboard

[larryl]

digging around, i found this.......hate to hi-jack any more, but now i am curious...

Matthew 27:34 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)


34they offered him a mild painkiller (a mixture of wine and myrrh), but when he tasted it he wouldn't drink it.


is this tranlation (paraphrase) not correct? rock? anyone?

[mat1583]

digging around, i found this.......hate to hi-jack any more, but now i am curious...

Matthew 27:34 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)


34they offered him a mild painkiller (a mixture of wine and myrrh), but when he tasted it he wouldn't drink it.


is this tranlation (paraphrase) not correct? rock? anyone?

I can't stand the message translation. Heck, I can hardly even follow along in my New American Standard while someone is reading the message 'translation'. Sure it sounds good to our ears, but sometimes it's as if it almost changes the whole meaning of a passage. Maybe that's just my experience. :confused:

-washboard

[middletree]

I can't stand the message translation. Heck, I can hardly even follow along in my New American Standard while someone is reading the message 'translation'. Sure it sounds good to our ears, but sometimes it's as if it almost changes the whole meaning of a passage. Maybe that's just my experience. :confused:

-washboard
It's not bad to use as a commentary, or as a supplement. But it should never, ever, be used as a person's main source for what the bible says.

[mat1583]

It's not bad to use as a commentary, or as a supplement. But it should never, ever, be used as a person's main source for what the bible says.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I've seen some people carry it around as their primary source at church or Bible studies and it just irks me. I dunno, maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine. Maybe it's because I've heard people try to paraphrase it (which is basically a paraphrase of a paraphrase) and it gets so convoluted in the process that the real meaning and emphasis on the original scripture is lost.

-washboard

[ObiShawn]

digging around, i found this.......hate to hi-jack any more, but now i am curious...

Matthew 27:34 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)


34they offered him a mild painkiller (a mixture of wine and myrrh), but when he tasted it he wouldn't drink it.


is this tranlation (paraphrase) not correct? rock? anyone?

This is true. The combination of wine and myrrh did make a pain killer, though I don't know the exat ratio. I have a write up printed out of a doctor that went over the aspects of Jesus' suffering, from a medical stand point. He confirmed this.

It's amazing because Jesus wouldn't even relieve His pain and suffering just a little. He had to suffer the full punishment for our sins. We all know He voluntarily went to the cross, but we've heard that so much we tend to not be as moved. But when I first heard of Him rejecting the pain killer, it made me look at the passion froma whole new perspective.

[larryl]

This is true. The combination of wine and myrrh did make a pain killer, though I don't know the exat ratio. I have a write up printed out of a doctor that went over the aspects of Jesus' suffering, from a medical stand point. He confirmed this.

It's amazing because Jesus wouldn't even relieve His pain and suffering just a little. He had to suffer the full punishment for our sins. We all know He voluntarily went to the cross, but we've heard that so much we tend to not be as moved. But when I first heard of Him rejecting the pain killer, it made me look at the passion froma whole new perspective.


thanks. i wasn't sure from some of the above comments.....about it being sour wine, or what not....

yes...it is very interesting to think he would turn down a pain killer.....very humbling

as far as the message......it was just one of the translations i hit on biblegateway.....had to at least check, and then it was so different, i had to ask....

and i am glad i did!!

[prayercloth sis]

I agree with you on alot.

This is something that I do not agree with you on. I believe God still hates the sin of homosexuality. God hates all sin. This sin is an abomination.

I do not believe that you can be a Christain and commit the sin of homosexuality.

Just my viewpoint.

Rhonie

[ObiShawn]

I believe God still hates the sin of homosexuality. God hates all sin. This sin is an abomination.

I do not believe that you can be a Christain and commit the sin of homosexuality.Why? What makes that sin worse than any other sin?

Proverbs 6:16-19~

There are six things that the Lord hates,seven that are destable (abomination) to Him:
- haughty eyes (a proud look),
- a lying tongue,
- hands that shed innocent blood,
- a heart the devises wicked schemes (a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations),
- feet that are quick to rush into evil (feet that be swift in running to mischief,
- a false witness that pours out lies (a false witness that speaketh lies),
- and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers (and he that soweth discord among brethern).Quote from the NIV, parentheses is KJV

Notice that pride is first on the list. Every living soul is guilty of that one, how come you're not as adament about that particular sin?

[prayercloth sis]

I also agree with post #110 and #116.

My veiwpoint on drinking any alcoholic beverage is.... I withstain.

John did not do it and they dogged him about. Jesus did partake of wine. They called him a winebiber.

There are very few that stop at just one or two drinks. I also believe that some folks can enter into an addiction with it. I have had several family members that suffered from this addiction. I choose to not embellish. I do not judge others unless they drink themselves into a drunkenness and kill others or themselves. Even then, I try not to judge, I pray for mercy. I also believe that spirits come with drinking. That's why they used to call it partaking of the spirits. (The only spirit I want in me is the Holy Spirit.)

I also realize that wine was used also for medicinal purposes in some instances. They did in biblical times drink wine with their meals. It is a good source of inward cleansing. Fermented or not, that's a huge discussion that is still being debated. (Grape juice and cranberry juice work just as good.)

There are also several scriptures that teach about withstraining from drinking.

I prefer to be sober and in my right mind. I want to be watching and praying when he returns.

Until He Comes

God Bless

[prayercloth sis]

The scriptures speak about ...without natural affections (II Tim. 3:3). II Tim. 3:7 states... Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. In Leviticus (posted in earlier posts) it calls this sin very specifically an abomination. Remember Sodom and Gommorah and the angels that came to Lot's house and the men of the city wanted Lot to turn them away. Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themelves.

Pride is just now being brought up on the posts. Proverbs 16:18..pride goeth before destruction.

[ObiShawn]

There are very few that stop at just one or two drinks. . . . .I prefer to be sober and in my right mind. I want to be watching and praying when he returns. There is nothing wrong with not drinking, but if a person does, they need to be mindful of how much they've had or actually, how much they can handle. It is all about self control, which just so happens to be one of the fruits of the Spirit.

There are also several scriptures that teach about withstraining from drinking. The only scriptures that I can recall that say a person should NOT drink would be the verses pertaining to the Nazarite vows. John the Baptist wasn't to drink alcohol. That's about it. All other verses teach that we shouldn't be/get drunk but rather that we should have self control.

It seems that tradition has taught us that it wold be easier to avoid alcohol all together rather than chance getting a bit tipsy and therefore drinking began to be viewed as sin.

Tradition vs. the Word of God, if we could ever get this one strightened out, we might be able to do something great in America.

[prayercloth sis]

Point taken.

I'd rather be safe than sorry. My old red-headed Pastor Bro. James Clark had a saying that stuck with me. "I'd rather make it to Heaven with a wheelbarrow too much than miss it because of a teaspoon to little."

God Bless

[ObiShawn]

Praycloth sis, please understand that I am not trying to argue with you. I don't get the impression that you are arguing with me. I'm merely attempting to discuss this with you, to see your point of view. There's no contention on my part. I just wanted to make sure we have clear communication. Now, on to the post . . .

In Leviticus (posted in earlier posts) it calls this sin very specifically an abomination.Just out of curisoity, I looked up the word abomination as it is used in the Leviticus passage (20:13, Strong's number 8441) and in the original Hebrew, it literally means "something disgusting."

While I do agree that it is disgusting, the definition makes it seem less epic or tremendous as you tend to insist that it is, which leads me to this point:

You said:

I do not believe that you can be a Christain and commit the sin of homosexuality. You never did answer why. Can you be a Christian an commit the sin of heterosexual fornication?

[prayercloth sis]

Luke 21:34, Romans 13:13...Let us walk honestly, as in the day: not rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. V.14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts of the flesh.\

ICo. 6:9... Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. V. 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:1-6. I Thes. 5;7-8. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. V.8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Galatians 5:19-21..(Works of the Flesh) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, V. 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, V.21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

To me tipsy is drunk. Not with a clear mind. Therefore, I refuse such a temptation. It dosn't take much consumption of acoholic beverages to not be in a sound mind.

Drinking acoholic beverages tempts you to give in to the will of the flesh. I would much rather get drunk in the Holy Ghost. It's that new wine!!!!
I still have my money, I can drive afterwards, and I'm closer to the Lord. Praise God for His new wine!!!

[prayercloth sis]

Just my opinion, but how can Christ be in us if we are doing something that disgusts him?

If we continue to do this sin over and over and never stop. NO. Do I believe that a person can repent and get right yes. True repentance means to turn away from. I believe you become a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things are new. (I also posted a few scriptures on fornication). The heterosexual fornication you are refering to is never called an abomination (disgusting in the eyes of God).

This is how I believe and understand the scriptures.

Rhonie

[prayercloth sis]

Ephesians 4:24, Col. 3:10

Ep.4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind. V.24 And that ye put on the new man, which God has created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:5 Mortify therfore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupisence, and covetness, which is idolatry. V. 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience. V.8 But now ye also put off these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. V. 9 Lie not to one another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds. V.10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

[ObiShawn]

Just my opinion, but how can Christ be in us if we are doing something that disgusts him? Your question brings me to the point I was trying to make earlier.

Proverbs 6:16-19~
There are six things that the Lord hates,seven that are destable (abomination) to Him:
- haughty eyes (a proud look),
- a lying tongue,
- hands that shed innocent blood,
- a heart the devises wicked schemes (a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations),
- feet that are quick to rush into evil (feet that be swift in running to mischief,
- a false witness that pours out lies (a false witness that speaketh lies),
- and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers (and he that soweth discord among brethern).Quote from the NIV, parentheses is KJV

Which is worse, God "hating" a sin or God thinking that a sin is "disgusting?" While both are bad, I just don't see the point in harping on one particular sin when God says he hates certain sins that Christians do everyday, the main one being pride. Of the seven mentioned in Proverbs, the least likely sin that a Christian would commit is "hands that shed innocent blood."

The heterosexual fornication you are refering to is never called an abomination (disgusting in the eyes of God). That is an answer to a question I never asked you. But I see the point you are attempting to make; the two different sins (according to you) shouldn't be put on the same level.

And in response to that, let me quote you:

ICo. 6:9... Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind . . .Paul put the two sins on the same level. See also 1 Timothy 1:9-10.


EDIT -

Just my opinion, but how can Christ be in us if we are doing something that disgusts him? This question actually leads to a completely different, yet somewhat related topic. The short answer is because our salvation isn't based on what we do. We can't save our selves and once we are saved, we cannot maintain our salvation; that is the work of Christ.

[middletree]

Wow. I sure did miss a lot since my last foray here. The previous several posts have had to do wiht subject I previously commented on, so I'll throw in thoughts on what has been posted so far.

These are priced at exactly 2 cents apiece. This post is about homosexuality.

Don't get me wrong, Rhonie. The very idea of homosexual activity disgusts me. And it puzzles me to think of why a man would want another man, when women are some much prettier. So I am not defending the behavior. But my point is that I see many passages where it is lumped together with other sexual sins. The verses you posted about abstaining from lust are valid, but they apply to straight-sex sins as well.

And none of the verses said that one ceases to become a Christian when they engage in such sin. I am thankful for this, because I have lusted, and I am glad to know that God's word has reminded me that I am still a child of His.

I do know many men who have struggled with sexual sin of one type or another, and like the Prodigal son, they never stopped being His. He called them back. He called me back.

[middletree]

As for drinking, remember what I said. I would love to see drinking be called a sin. But I don't get to choose what the bibel says. God says in His word that being drunk is sin. We don't get to add to that, nor extend it. When you say "tipsy is drunk", you are extending it beyond what it says. People here posted that the bible never says drinking is sin. That statement is true. It cannot be refuted, unless the bible itself changes.

Now, as for you not drinking, I don't begrudge you that at all. I don't touch the stuff. If all you are doing is saying why you don't drink, then I have no problem with that.

The problem I have with the ones who maintain that drinking is sin (besides the fact that they are mirepresenting Scripture) is that it leads to judgmentalism. I grew up with it, and I still struggle with it myself. It's so easy as Christians to project upon other believers what we think they ought to do, or what they should abstain from, and it is therefore easy to look down upon them for not living by our rules. We then change the word "rules" to "standard", and decide that we have a higher standard than that person.

It is very easy to do, and like I said, I struggle with it myself. In fact, when I swing away from it, I get judgmental about other peoples' judgmentalism.

Not saying you are doing any of the above. Just talking in general about the dangers of legalism.

For the record, I have observed that for the most part, American Christians are susceptible to judging other Christians if they don't fall into line about the following items:

1. Drinking
2. Homosexuality being worse than other forms of sexual sin
3. Politics (God=Republican)
4. Emotionally charged issues such as abortion, creationism/evolution/big bang
5. Divorce and remarriage
6. Last Days/End Times
7. Secular movies/music


There are probably more things, but these are the ones that seem to be used by Satan to cause the most division and judgmentalism in the American Church. I think we might be surprised when me meet God and He goes over our lives with us, and we find that the most important things on His agenda weren't the ones on ours.

[prayercloth sis]

I understand all of what you both are saying, but for me I cannot discount that homosexuality is an abomination (LEV. 20:13). For me to discount that scripture would be taking away from the word of God, which we are warned against in the book of Revelation. That's why I do not personally group it with other sins. Sin is sin. Some are abomintions. Natural things (sins) and unnatural. I just simply believe there is a great difference. I can't discount the scripture from Leviticus. (Because of the explicitness of the wording.)
I would even venture to say that homosexuality could be considered evil imgainations. Just my veiwpoint.

I do not see drinking a glass of wine with dinner or for medicinal purposes a sin. Jesus was without sin and drank wine.
I just do not feel that many folks stop with one or two, therefore when indulging in the acoholic beverage you simply are not in control of your faculties.

(My father was a police officer for many years). It doesn't take much to slow your responses and cloud your thought processes. It also, if not controled can lead to sin easily. Therefore, I believe that is why many churches teach against the use of it. That's why we teach to abstain from it.

*** Drinking a sin, well that depends on what you are drinking and how much. If it's vodka, just one will set you to soaring, 1 beer legal by the law, 1 glass of wine still sober, excessive amounts affecting your motorskills....you guys get my point. So many are tempted also, the bible speaks clearly on temptation and how to handle it. These are just my opinions and the scriptures that caused me to have my viewpoint. I think we are all pretty much on the same page, just different paragraphs if you will.

Alot of folks consider certain churches to be too strict and others to be too lenient. I just want to try to stay right in the middle of the truth as much as possible. I am not trying to make something sin, that the bible doesn't say is sin, just warning that is can possibly lead to sin.



I completely agree with the paragraphs about judgementalism. We are currently attending a church that has had several people hurt in several churches, pentecostal included. Judgements made from people who do not practice what they preach if you will. There are so many people that have been hurt in church. Church should be a safe haven where folks are loved and can feel safe. If they weren't interested in living for God they wouldn't come, just because someone may not be as mature as another gives no one the right to put another down. If one struggles and falls, we are to encourage and love and lift that person up. We simply need to get back to the basics.

We need to make sure that our own walk is as right as we can get it with the help and guidance of God then we will be able to help others. Pray for our little church, we had about 50 today. God is trully blessing and we just want to serve him the best we can. God Bless You Guys

[middletree]

I understand all of what you both are saying, but for me I cannot discount that homosexuality is an abomination (LEV. 20:13).


I can understand that. Someone here said that the original Hebrew says that it means disgusting, which could be applied to lots of sins.

To me, there's more things about the way I have seen Christians single out homosexuality that I haven't even brought up yet. Anyone reading this shoudl check their heart on the following:

1. Most gays have been hurt by something in their childhood. It isn't genetic. Many, including Mark, who started this thread, have had a childhood marked by a domineering mother and weak or passive father. Others have been abused sexually. I will be the first to say that this doesn't excuse sin, but it should give us all an idea who the real enemy is. Satan has attacked these people when they were very young and vulnerable. It could have happened to us.

2. The liberal mindset is to say that homosexuality is acceptable. The extreme conservative mindset is to say "God hates fags." Neither approach is correct. These people need the healing touch of Jesus just as much as the blind man needed Jesus to make him able to see again.

We Christians read our bibles and cheer God on for rescuing the Israelites from Egypt, and we should also pray that God will rescue homosexuals from a different sort of bondage. I find it hard to look at people as scum and still feel sorry enough for them to pray for them. Maybe others can do that, but I can't. Therefore, I choose to not see them as the enemy, but as hurting people who have wounds which eed to be addressed.

3. The last observation I'll give here about the dangers of singling out homosxuality as a separate sin is that most modern American Christians cannot relate to gays, where they can relate to mopst of the other sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6. Many of them see fornication listed there, and remember how in high school they sinned in the back seat of a car. They see drunkenness, and they are understanding because they remember in their early 20's, they got kind of wild. But they see homosexuality and cannot relate, so they are harder on gays than on those who have committed the other sins on that list.

Not saying you fall into that category, Rhonie. Whoever this reads this should do a heart check.

[middletree]

I do not see drinking a glass of wine with dinner or for medicinal purposes a sin. Jesus was without sin and drank wine.
I just do not feel that many folks stop with one or two, therefore when indulging in the acoholic beverage you simply are not in control of your faculties.


I'm pretty sure God knew that when He inspired the bible writers to write what they did. We have to let the Word overrride our personal philosophies, even our experiences.

[prayercloth sis]

I completely agree, I do not believe God hates the person but the sin. Excellent way of putting it all into words. I do believe that "gay" folks have been hurt and had some type of trauma in their life and need deliverance from that type of lifestyle. I also believe that they have deeper rooted problems that need attention as well. I do pray for those that suffer with this sin. I just pray that the drawing of the spirit and infilling of the spirit with lead and guide folks with this sin into all truth. In Jesus Name Amen. God Bless To All.

Rhonie

[GayChristian]

I can understand that. Someone here said that the original Hebrew says that it means disgusting, which could be applied to lots of sins.

To me, there's more things about the way I have seen Christians single out homosexuality that I haven't even brought up yet. Anyone reading this shoudl check their heart on the following:

1. Most gays have been hurt by something in their childhood. It isn't genetic. Many, including Mark, who started this thread, have had a childhood marked by a domineering mother and weak or passive father. Others have been abused sexually. I will be the first to say that this doesn't excuse sin, but it should give us all an idea who the real enemy is. Satan has attacked these people when they were very young and vulnerable. It could have happened to us.

2. The liberal mindset is to say that homosexuality is acceptable. The extreme conservative mindset is to say "God hates fags." Neither approach is correct. These people need the healing touch of Jesus just as much as the blind man needed Jesus to make him able to see again.

We Christians read our bibles and cheer God on for rescuing the Israelites from Egypt, and we should also pray that God will rescue homosexuals from a different sort of bondage. I find it hard to look at people as scum and still feel sorry enough for them to pray for them. Maybe others can do that, but I can't. Therefore, I choose to not see them as the enemy, but as hurting people who have wounds which eed to be addressed.

3. The last observation I'll give here about the dangers of singling out homosxuality as a separate sin is that most modern American Christians cannot relate to gays, where they can relate to mopst of the other sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6. Many of them see fornication listed there, and remember how in high school they sinned in the back seat of a car. They see drunkenness, and they are understanding because they remember in their early 20's, they got kind of wild. But they see homosexuality and cannot relate, so they are harder on gays than on those who have committed the other sins on that list.

Not saying you fall into that category, Rhonie. Whoever this reads this should do a heart check.

I love the tenderness that you treat this subject with - it's very refreshing. Thank you very much. I don't agree with 100% of the trauma-related stuff necessarily... but I did teach from that perspective for 7 years at my church (during the "healing" stage of the ex-gay ministry program I was involved in).

Again, the people in this forum are pretty amazing.

xoxo
- Mark

[middletree]

Mark:

Your responses are well-thought out and not reactionary. I appreciate that. You are backing up my claim that you aren't the enemy;)

[mat1583]

3. The last observation I'll give here about the dangers of singling out homosxuality as a separate sin is that most modern American Christians cannot relate to gays, where they can relate to mopst of the other sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6. Many of them see fornication listed there, and remember how in high school they sinned in the back seat of a car. They see drunkenness, and they are understanding because they remember in their early 20's, they got kind of wild. But they see homosexuality and cannot relate, so they are harder on gays than on those who have committed the other sins on that list.

Not saying you fall into that category, Rhonie. Whoever this reads this should do a heart check.

I haven't really commented much on this topic yet, but I think the reason why Christians may be a little "harder on gays" is not because they can't relate, but because homosexuality is a lifestyle. Just as prostitution can be a lifestyle or occupation for certain people, being a homosexual is not just a one time thing. It's not getting drunk once, not having premarital sex once. It's living in a sinful lifestyle, which God & Jesus certainly warn against many times.

-washboard

[middletree]

I haven't really commented much on this topic yet, but I think the reason why Christians may be a little "harder on gays" is not because they can't relate, but because homosexuality is a lifestyle. Just as prostitution can be a lifestyle or occupation for certain people, being a homosexual is not just a one time thing. It's not getting drunk once, not having premarital sex once. It's living in a sinful lifestyle, which God & Jesus certainly warn against many times.

-washboard
That's a possible valid reason, too. Like many things, the truth is probably complex. But I am sure that the reason I laid out is part of it. I have seen too many times people feel sympathetic toward someone who's struggling with alcoholism or drug addiction, but not as sympathetic toward those struggling with this sin.

[prayercloth sis]

God wants a close relationshiip with each and everyone of us. He want to be able to commune with us and in turn respond to him. It's a wonderful life living for the Lord.

[ICarlson99]

That's a possible valid reason, too. Like many things, the truth is probably complex. But I am sure that the reason I laid out is part of it. I have seen too many times people feel sympathetic toward someone who's struggling with alcoholism or drug addiction, but not as sympathetic toward those struggling with this sin.

I also think a big part of it is that homosexuality seems to be the only sin wherein those who engage in it choose to define themselves. Most other sins are done, as stated above, as a slip, and are not how people choose to be known - or even brag about it. I suppose it's also somewhat true of pornography - maybe it's a sexual thing....

It seems like most other sins people are somewhat embarrassed by, there's a difference in homosexuality - at least among some very outspoken groups and individuals. That doesn't make the reaction appropriate, but that may explain the difference between those who acknowledge their sinful ways and those who define themselves by their sinful ways.

[middletree]

Makes sense. Again, one of many reasons. I think your reasoning is valid, and mine is part of the mix, as well.

[zhazha]

Congratulations on doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you all and understand why you would support a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage (and fight so hard to prove that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God). As you said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18.22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

However, I do need some advice from all of you regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how best to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25.44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not to Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21.7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Leviticus 15.19-24). The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord. (Leviticus 1.9) The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35.2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 11.10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?

7. Leviticus 21.20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19.27. How should they die?

9. I know from Leviticus 11.6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean. May I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19.19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Leviticus 24.10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Leviticus 20.14)

I know you all have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Yours truly,
Zhazha

P.S. I look forward to your answers because there are a number of other issues that I'd like to get settled as soon as you've enlightened me on these ... Thanks again.

[middletree]

I'm answering this as if your post is completely serious.

You refer to this as God's Law. It is true that it came from God. But as I said earlier in this thread, it was given By God to a certain group of people at a certain period of history.

It was given to the Israelites as they came out of Egypt. They had no Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branches like we do. They had no king. God gave them very precise laws to live by, because that's what they needed.

If a police officer were to come to your door and try to arrest you because you broke a Romaina law, you'd most likely protest that because you aren't in Romania, those laws don't apply to you. It is my opinion that the Law of Moses doesn't apply to you and me, because they never were given to you and me.

That's why I don't think that the Law of Moses should be referred to as Old Testament Law, because it applied to less than half of the time period contained during the Old Testament.

Hope that answers your question. Of course, homosexuality is still sin. Like murder and adultery and lying, it was sin before the Law of Moses, and still is. One should use verses in Romans and 1 Corinthians to back up the idea that homosexuality is sin.

For the record, it should not be assumed that all of us who regard this as sin are in favor of the marriage amendment.

[Howlin' Wolf]

For the record, it should not be assumed that all of us who regard this as sin are in favor of the marriage amendment.

yeah, i could really care less about the political aspect of it

[cheewiee]

For the record, I have observed that for the most part, American Christians are susceptible to judging other Christians if they don't fall into line about the following items:

1. Drinking
2. Homosexuality being worse than other forms of sexual sin
3. Politics (God=Republican)
4. Emotionally charged issues such as abortion, creationism/evolution/big bang
5. Divorce and remarriage
6. Last Days/End Times
7. Secular movies/music


Ok.. First add Evangelical or Fundamentalist between the American and Christian and you are right..

[Col. Mustard]

nothing against people who have tatoos, i truly don't care if people do or not, but is getting a tatto sinnin? cause my sissy wants one on her ankle of a heart, and this dude was just like "why would you do that, tatooos are sinful" whats ur opinian?

[bholdj]

What does God want? Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Luke 12:42-48

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Somebody may have said it already. But Faithfullness seems to hit it on the head for me.

As for Gaychristian. Dude, I soooooo disagree with the gay life style. Then again, im sure somebody disagrees with me putting my life in the hands of a Savior and Lord who died for my sins over 2,000 years ago so what do i know :D ? Press on.

Sola Christos

John

[dustmonkey08]

As for Gaychristian. Dude, I soooooo disagree with the gay life style. Then again, im sure somebody disagrees with me putting my life in the hands of a Savior and Lord who died for my sins over 2,000 years ago so what do i know :D ? Press on.

Sola Christos

John

I agree with you. But I also agree that you can't be a christian and be gay at the same time. God didn't create Adam and Steve he created Adam and Eve.

[Col. Mustard]

I agree with you. But I also agree that you can't be a christian and be gay at the same time. God didn't create Adam and Steve he created Adam and Eve.
we already went through this, please lets not start again (i don't mean that to sound mean, please don't read it that way, a few of us just got into an argument about this subject, wouldn't want that to happen again.)
from texas? awsome, texas rocks. i'm eaither movin to atlanta or texas, i haven't decided yet. but im definitly movin down south. P.A. waaaay to dull.
:D

[dustmonkey08]

we already went through this, please lets not start again (i don't mean that to sound mean, please don't read it that way, a few of us just got into an argument about this subject, wouldn't want that to happen again.)
from texas? awsome, texas rocks. i'm eaither movin to atlanta or texas, i haven't decided yet. but im definitly movin down south. P.A. waaaay to dull.
:D

Psssss.... move to Texas it Rocks.

[Col. Mustard]

Psssss.... move to Texas it Rocks.
kk~lol!
:D

[SueQ]

God has no want (need) of us....He wants US.....and the closer we obey his laws..the closer we move towards Him...and because none of us are sinless...(even AFTER salvation)...we needed a Savior...thank you Lord for providing us Jesus.....

On the topic of GayChristian....I do believe, as I have stated on another thread...that some people are born with an attraction to the same gender...God hates sinful behavior...He hates my sin as much as He hates homosexual behavior, even though my sin may be "more acceptable" to most people....I don't think Mark ever mentioned whether he was acting on his desires or not...none of my business anyway...but I DO know that since I still struggle with my own sinful nature I am in no position to judge him...I praise and thank Jesus for my salvation....hope for prayers when my struggles are great and send up prayers for Mark in his struggles...and anyone else for that matter...by the way..I do know of a couple of homosexual Christians who don't practice "the lifestyle"....one is happily married and one is divorced but still strives to live a Godly life...you CAN be gay and Christian....

[Healing Oil]

God has no want (need) of us....He wants US.....and the closer we obey his laws..the closer we move towards Him...and because none of us are sinless...(even AFTER salvation)...we needed a Savior...thank you Lord for providing us Jesus.....

On the topic of GayChristian....I do believe, as I have stated on another thread...that some people are born with an attraction to the same gender...God hates sinful behavior...He hates my sin as much as He hates homosexual behavior, even though my sin may be "more acceptable" to most people....I don't think Mark ever mentioned whether he was acting on his desires or not...none of my business anyway...but I DO know that since I still struggle with my own sinful nature I am in no position to judge him...I praise and thank Jesus for my salvation....hope for prayers when my struggles are great and send up prayers for Mark in his struggles...and anyone else for that matter...by the way..I do know of a couple of homosexual Christians who don't practice "the lifestyle"....one is happily married and one is divorced but still strives to live a Godly life...you CAN be gay and Christian....Out of curiousity, is your friend married to a man or woman?

[Tribal]

...you CAN be gay and Christian....

That statement could not be more wrong. The Bible is very clear on that.
A christian can struggle with the sin of homosexuality, but to identify yourself as gay & a christian...no way. That's being double minded.

John 8:32
32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

[larryl]

i think the point she was trying to make was that you can have gay feelings, and be a christian.......which is true.......as in the two examples she gave.....

[Tribal]

i think the point she was trying to make was that you can have gay feelings, and be a christian.......which is true.......as in the two examples she gave.....

Probably, but these statements..."I do know of a couple of homosexual Christians" & "you CAN be gay and Christian" are still incorrect in any context.
Especially for a new christian to read.

[larryl]

Probably, but these statements..."I do know of a couple of homosexual Christians" & "you CAN be gay and Christian" are still incorrect in any context.
Especially for a new christian to read.


i think it's semantics at that point.....depends on whether you mean those words to way "practicing the lifestyle" or "having those attractions"

[prayercloth sis]

Deception is rampid......

[SueQ]

.....he is married to a woman and they both serve in my church......since when do we become perfect after salvation?...I'm still just a sinner saved by grace...do we stop sinning after salvation? Anyone who is truthful knows we don't...still can't because we are still affected by our sinful human nature as long as we are in this body...there are people who are attracted to the same gender but don't act upon it because they know it is sinful and not pleasing to God and they want that close relationship with Him...some can have that desire eliminated through prayer,fasting,spiritual grow....some still struggle....some people look upon the opposite gender with lust but don't act upon it...some pray to have it eliminated....no one can say they are free from sin.....Jesus saved us from the wages of sin....He didn't eliminate our sinful nature....but then, too I wouldn't go around introducing myself as a "gay Christian" or a "lustful Christian" or a "compulsive eating Christian" or a "prideful Christian" or a " covetnous Christian" ......we need only one "label"......"Christian"

[mcgreen311]

For the record, it should not be assumed that all of us who regard this as sin are in favor of the marriage amendment.

Can you elaborate on this, middletree? I'm a little divided on the subject myself.

[SueQ]

for the record...I am for an amendment that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman....whether it comes to pass or not may not matter...God's law is God's law and we will all be judged eventually...

[middletree]

Can you elaborate on this, middletree? I'm a little divided on the subject myself.
Sorry. I've been gone for 6 weeks, and won't be back as frequently, hence my slow response.

I am voting for the TX amendment that's up for vote this week, which defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. But I'm not confident that it will do much good.

Christians are against gay marriage because they see gay behavior as sin (which it is). And they know that a nation which embraces sin is going to lose some level of blessing from God.

However, the bible only speaks about gay behavior. It doesn't mention gay marriage. Our nation has allowed same-sex sex for decades. The last time someone tried to prosecute somebody for the act itself, the Supreme Court struck down the TX law that they were violating. So in my mind, the US has already crossed that line of accepting this sinful behavior, both as a society and through our government. Any laws that address whether gays can get married don't seem to regard either way to the actual sin.

[middletree]

i think it's semantics at that point.....depends on whether you mean those words to way "practicing the lifestyle" or "having those attractions"

This was in response to the post that said that one cannot be a Christian and practice gay behavior.

I am certainly no defender of gay behavior, but I see no verse, --not a single one--that says that a Christian cannot struggle with this type of behavior, and even fall in that area. I'm not interested in people's opinions: I'd like to see a verse.

I am a straight man, and I have lusted after women. According to several NT verses, this is sin. Yet I know that although I have fallen (in my mind, not the physical act of having a relationship with a woman other than my wife), I know that I am still a Christian. I know that if I --heaven forbid--did have a physical adulterous relationship, I'd still be a Christian. I'd be in trouble big time, and there would be consequences, but my status as a Christian would not be affected.

Christians fall. We behave in ways that we shouldn't. Satan knows how to push some buttons, and not all of us guard our heart all the time. This applies to people who struggle with lust, alcohol, self-centeredness, and many other sins. To single out homosexuality and say that this one particular sin will keep you from being a Christian, reveals a serious lack of understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

I'm not a Christian because I behave well. I am a Christian because I have sinned, hence my need for a Savior. One can fall in various ways and still be a Christian.

[Pouye]

This was in response to the post that said that one cannot be a Christian and practice gay behavior.

I am certainly no defender of gay behavior, but I see no verse, --not a single one--that says that a Christian cannot struggle with this type of behavior, and even fall in that area. I'm not interested in people's opinions: I'd like to see a verse.

I am a straight man, and I have lusted after women. According to several NT verses, this is sin. Yet I know that although I have fallen (in my mind, not the physical act of having a relationship with a woman other than my wife), I know that I am still a Christian. I know that if I --heaven forbid--did have a physical adulterous relationship, I'd still be a Christian. I'd be in trouble big time, and there would be consequences, but my status as a Christian would not be affected.

Christians fall. We behave in ways that we shouldn't. Satan knows how to push some buttons, and not all of us guard our heart all the time. This applies to people who struggle with lust, alcohol, self-centeredness, and many other sins. To single out homosexuality and say that this one particular sin will keep you from being a Christian, reveals a serious lack of understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

I'm not a Christian because I behave well. I am a Christian because I have sinned, hence my need for a Savior. One can fall in various ways and still be a Christian.


Well said. That's why we need Jesus as our Savior.

Rock

[mcgreen311]

Sorry. I've been gone for 6 weeks, and won't be back as frequently, hence my slow response.

I am voting for the TX amendment that's up for vote this week, which defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. But I'm not confident that it will do much good.

Christians are against gay marriage because they see gay behavior as sin (which it is). And they know that a nation which embraces sin is going to lose some level of blessing from God.

However, the bible only speaks about gay behavior. It doesn't mention gay marriage. Our nation has allowed same-sex sex for decades. The last time someone tried to prosecute somebody for the act itself, the Supreme Court struck down the TX law that they were violating. So in my mind, the US has already crossed that line of accepting this sinful behavior, both as a society and through our government. Any laws that address whether gays can get married don't seem to regard either way to the actual sin.

Ah...so you see it as more of a nominal band-aid on the problem. Gotcha.

ETA: Ditto what everyone said about the other post. :)

[SueQ]

Amen, Brothers. I have fallen, but because of Jesus I was able to get up.

[Tribal]

So are we to accept gay pastors, heading gay churches, as the norm?

Sin is indeed sin. To recognize one's sin, as sin, is also knowing that God can help us overcome that sin. (did that make sense?)

To say that God made me this way (gay) is not being truthful.

I have personally known those in the church struggling with this very issue.
They gave it over to God & He brought them out of that sin.

[middletree]

So are we to accept gay pastors, heading gay churches, as the norm?


I don't anyone said that. Why do you ask that?

The last few posts have been about a response ot the idea posted earlier that one cannot be gay and a believer.

[Tribal]

I guess I was reading it wrong.

Nothing to see here, move along.......

[Mugirl04]

I believe God wants a pure and holy life. I don't believe that we should accept Gay preachers, just like we would not accept those who commit adultury. Preacher should be spiritual leaders and not having a sinful lifestyle, I know that some will not agree with this

[Howlin' Wolf]

I believe God wants a pure and holy life. I don't believe that we should accept Gay preachers, just like we would not accept those who commit adultury. Preacher should be spiritual leaders and not having a sinful lifestyle, I know that some will not agree with this

whoever doesnt agree with this is in darkness and an enemy to God

[middletree]

I didn't see one single post here that advocated allowing gay men to be church leaders.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I didn't see one single post here that advocated allowing gay men to be church leaders.

now tree, you know for a fact that nobody here reads entire threads. they see a topic, click on the latest post and respond to that. thats why every songle debate goes round and round and we have to continually repeat ourselves. so just roll with it

[middletree]

Ah. Gotcha. ;)

[1inamillion]

OK it's now my turn to "preach" oltho i'm a lady.


one you others who aren't gay yea you need to stop beating down someone ok yes been gay is wrong and yes you are 'pose to turn the wrong to the right but all yall are doin is trying to see who can come down the hardest i was reading thur this forum and all i saw was yall bashing poor mark down

Gay christian- you need to read romans 1:27..or better yet i will put it up here and let it be...Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

AND also gay chistian- i think GOd wants us to represent him as a holy (ungay sorry that was wrong but so is been gay)accaptable sacrifise think about this if someone saw you today do you think they would think your a Christian prolly not and its JUST wrong to go around been gay broadcasting your "salvation" b/c then ppl will looke down on us GOOD christians ok? im' not saying your a bad christian i'm just saying think about Jesus for a change oK...remembeer WWJD :cool: :confused:

In christ
Peacock

[Howlin' Wolf]

what would jesus do for a klondike bar

[SueQ]

WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAA!

"Good" Christian vs. "Bad" Christian? :eek: There is neither...We are ALL sinners....some follow Christ more closely than others...I follow Him more closely at times than I do at other times...everyone is at a different point in their relationship with Him....thankfully He meets us where we are....

WWJD?....love us all anyway...

[SueQ]

what would jesus do for a klondike bar

Oh, Tulip...be nice...

[1inamillion]

WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAA!

"Good" Christian vs. "Bad" Christian? :eek: There is neither...We are ALL sinners....some follow Christ more closely than others...I follow Him more closely at times than I do at other times...everyone is at a different point in their relationship with Him....thankfully He meets us where we are....

WWJD?....love us all anyway...
OK lets get one thing straight aight? i may have metioned something about him been a "bad" christian but i'm not doin hte whole VS thing aight if yall have a problem with what i said then talk to ME about it not every else GOSH! if you have a problem with this then PM but if not i suggest you stop picking on every ones opion

[middletree]

WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAA!

"Good" Christian vs. "Bad" Christian? :eek: There is neither...We are ALL sinners....some follow Christ more closely than others...I follow Him more closely at times than I do at other times...everyone is at a different point in their relationship with Him....thankfully He meets us where we are....

WWJD?....love us all anyway...
You are completely wrong. I am a former sinner, saved by grace.

[1inamillion]

but we still sin so there fore we are all still sinners

[middletree]

but we still sin so there fore we are all still sinners
I disagree.

I could sneak into the 18-wheeler that my neighbor owns, and steal his keys, then turn the ignition and go forward a few feet. But that wouldn't make me a truck driver.

1 John says that Christians do sin, but many verses say that we are not sinners. We are a new creation. I have said this before and will stand by it and not remain silent when the "we are sinners" stuff gets posted, because I think it's vital that we get past this deception that Satan has placed upon Christians. We need to know who we are in Christ, so that we will walk in it.

[1inamillion]

ok well then 1st john 1:9 If we confess our sins(we will sin again) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrightessness.

BTW by "stealing" his keys thats a sin thou shalt not steal!!!

[middletree]

ok well then 1st john 1:9 If we confess our sins(we will sin again) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrightessness.

BTW by "stealing" his keys thats a sin thou shalt not steal!!!
No offense, but did you even read what I said?

The truck driving thing was an illustration. I wasn't advocating sinning.

And I brought up 1 John; not sure why you did. It simply backs me up.

[Pouye]

Very important concept to grasp.

Satan attacks our identity; for he always swings his axe at our roots. His first lie to Adam and Eve was to confuse them about who they really were. He continues to hack away at Christians today at that same root level.

We can no longer believe, as Christians, that we ARE sinners. The bible says that there was a time when we indulged in sexual sin; we were idol worshipers, adulterers, prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, swindlers, etc. But then it goes on to say that now our sins have been washed away, and we have been set apart for God. We have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for us. (See 1 Cor. 6:9-11)

Our new identity is NOT "sinner", but rather we are a new creation in Christ; clean and pure, set apart as holy to God. When we sin, it is not who we truly are who is sinning, but it is our old nature that has been crucified with Christ that sins (see Romans 8).

This message needs to be proclaimed, because so many Christians are condemning themselves for sins they committed. Satan wants to tell you that it was YOU (that is, your new nature) that sinned, and because of this, the lines between who you truly are get blurry... suddenly the old nature cloaks your new nature and you begin to believe that you are, deep down inside, not a new creation, but actually a sinner. "Sinner" becomes your identity again, and this is exactly where Satan wants Christians to be. He does not want you to see yourself as free from sin, but rather as still a slave to it (even though in reality, a believer is not a sinner, but a new creation in Christ; sinless and holy!)

I myself have fallen into this trap, so I'm speaking from experience. Please hear me on this:

There are two types of justification of sin. I only used to think there was one kind, and Satan kept me blind to the second kind for many years.

The kind that I knew was the kind that most people know and understand. It is when someone sins and they try to convince themselves that the sin is not sin. I could not bring myself to "fool" myself in this way. The things I did I knew were wrong. I couldn't justify them at all in this way. I would admit to God and others that some of the things I found myself struggling with were wrong.

However, I WAS justifying my sin, but in a strange way that I only just now realized; this brings me to the more subtle way sin is justified.

The other way sin can be justified is not really at a conscious level. Let me explain using an example that has nothing to do with me personally. Say someone accidently killed someone and then never told anyone (like running over a pedestrian at night on a country road).

Say she is a single mom with many kids and she thinks to herself, "Oh my God! I just ran over someone and killed 'em! I can't believe this! What should I do... I don't want to go to jail... I don't want my kids taken from me... Oh God, please understand why I'm just going to drive away! It was an accident... please help me!"

She drives away and later the police find the man dead on the road. It is chalked up as a hit and run, but they don't have any witnesses or evidence, and the case goes unsolved and time goes by.

Fast forward to the poor single gal....

She has lived with a guilty conscience now for years. She goes to work, she takes care of her kids, she goes to church, she worships the Lord. But she also finds herself overeating when she thinks about what she has done. She finds herself not caring for herself physically. She begins to struggle with compulsive addictions and chronic pain. She finds herself taking pain medication constantly for ulcers in her stomach, and addicted to the comforting numbness of pain medication. She is ruining herself physically, and she cannot seem to stop.

What's going on? She is justifying killing herself subconsciously. She believes she is guilty of accidental manslaughter. She also believes she was wrong for not telling his family what happened to him. What if he was married? What was his wife going through? What about if he had kids? The guilt has subconsciously fused her new identity with Christ with her old nature. She will kill herself slowly, there is no doubt about it... and deep down, she thinks she deserves it. But if you asked her if she is trying to kill herself, she would deny it! She might not even realize that's what she is actually trying to do.

This is an extreme example to make a point. The enemy has used this tactic to keep people in bondage to addictions and self-destructive behaviour for centuries. We are no longer sinners saved by grace... we are a new creation because of God's grace. Our identity is found in Christ and His Holy Spirit living in us. We do not have to kill ourselves with guilt or condemnation over something we have done, because when we committed that sin, it was not US (that is, our new creation) that committed that sin, but it was our sin nature that is being crucified. That nature is as good as dead (will certainly die), but it can still influence our actions when we are weak:

Paul sums it up:

"I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't. When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it.
It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God's law with all my heart. But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin. So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death." Romans 7:18-25; Romans 8:1-2

Very important message to grasp, and I think only God can show anyone how this truth applies to them.

Rock

[middletree]

Our new identity is NOT "sinner", but rather we are a new creation in Christ; clean and pure, set apart as holy to God. When we sin, it is not who we truly are who is sinning, but it is our old nature that has been crucified with Christ that sins (see Romans 8).

This message needs to be proclaimed,


Very important message to grasp, and I think only God can show anyone how this truth applies to them.


Thank you!

[1inamillion]

i'm not goin firght with yall anymroe ok?

[Pouye]

i'm not goin firght with yall anymroe ok?

Ok...
:)

Rock

[middletree]

i'm not goin firght with yall anymroe ok?
I'll be more happy if you choose to believe what the bible says when it says that God gave you a new heart; He didn't cleanse the old one. He made you a new creation; didn't fix the old one. Walk in that truth, and we'll all be happy.

[1inamillion]

i'm goin belive whats truth yall can believe any lies yall want to cuz i know whats right

[Healing Oil]

i'm goin belive whats truth yall can believe any lies yall want to cuz i know whats right
I suggest being careful with how you word some posts. Many here use sarcasm as a means of getting a point across. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesnt. This post may offend cause it has a certain arrogance to it...

Only God knows what is right :) Either way you look at it, you are saved :)

[SueQ]

Pouye...you have given me a lot to think about...I have read what you said a few times and I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying...in a nutshell...although we are no longer sinners, our sinful nature causes us to commit sin?

I believe you hit an important point about satan using our feelings of guilt against us....still, I see so many people, Christians too, absolve themselves of responsibility...I still think of myself as a sinner, although not in the same realm as before I was saved...I think of myself as a sinner whose sins are covered by the blood of Jesus...

Your example of the single mom really makes me think...I believe you are on to something I need to think about...

I welcome your response....

[1inamillion]

i'm goin belive whats truth yall can believe any lies yall want to cuz i know whats right
better yet SHOW me where it says you won't sin again show me in the King james bible :mad:

[Gandalf]

Not sure what the KJV has to do with anything :confused:... but their whole point is that while you will likely sin again from time to time, you are no longer identified as a "sinner" since your sins have been atoned for - you've been sanctified and are no longer a slave to sin. If you are free from sin, you're no longer a sinner, but now a child of God who has been redeemed from a life of sin, and is forgiven. Even though you still sometimes sin, it's no longer who you are.
Rom 6:15-23 NKJV
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As for no longer sinning, read 1 John 3:
1 John 3:7-9 NKJV
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

[Tribal]

although we are no longer sinners, our sinful nature causes us to commit sin?


We all still sin, every day. After the cross, God does not hold our sins against us. The only sin attributable to man, is the sin of unbelief, which is a sin that doesn't require forgiveness, but instead requires repentance.

[middletree]

..although we are no longer sinners, our sinful nature causes us to commit sin?

You wrote this to Rock, but I will give my response, and do with it what you will.

To answer your question directly, I don't believe we have the sin nature anymore once we become Christians. However, we still do sin, because we fall into the trap of forgetting that we don't have that nature anymore.

It's like slaves in TX in 1865. They didn't know that someone in Washington DC had passed a law and freed them. In fact, they didn't know it for quite some time. They acted as if they were still in bondage because they didn't know they had been freed. Likewise, Satan doesn't want you and me to know the truth that we have been freed from the bondage of sin.

When anyone tries to back up the fact that we are still sinners, they use two things: (1) the fact that we still do sin; and (2) various verses from Romans 7.

I have covered (1) already. I might figure out how to make an 18-wheeler move forward, but I am not a truck driver. That is not my identity. I might sin, but I am not a sinner. That is not my identity. This is because of Jesus in me, not of myself.

As for (2), it's important to note that Paul is talking from the point of view of someone who wrongly thinks they are still in bondage to sin. But in Ch 6 and 8, he makes it clear that we are not.

Why, then, does ch. 7 seem to say that we still are sinners? The answer can be found in the transition verse, the one that brings you from ch. 6 into ch. 7:

Romans 7:1 "Or are you ignorant, brothers; for I speak to those who know the Law; that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? "

Ok, this verse starts off ch. 7. Note that it says that a man is in bondage (to the law of sin and death) as long as he lives.

This is key, because in the verses right before it, he says that you and I are no longer alive:

Romans 6:2 Let it not be! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
v.3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
v.4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v.5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
v.6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
v.7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
v.8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

I know that that's a lot to read, but please read it all., I wanted to cut some verses out, but they all are important. If you have accepted Jesus, you are dead to sin. Ch. 7 is told from the point of view of someone who is still alive to sin. That's where you get all the "for I do that which I don't want to do" stuff. Read it in context.

In fact, just read this verse in v. 9, where Paul says it plain as day:

Romans 7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
v.9 For I was alive without the law once. But when the commandment came, sin revived and I died

You are dead to sin. You might sin on a regular basis, but that is not who you are. You are not a sinner save by grace. You are a former sinner saved by grace. Walk in the truth of who you are. Even if your common sense tells you that you must be a sinner because of that thing you did this morning, I encourage you to put aside human logic and believe what the bible says.

[Healing Oil]

We all still sin, every day. After the cross, God does not hold our sins against us. The only sin attributable to man, is the sin of unbelief, which is a sin that doesn't require forgiveness, but instead requires repentance.
I agree with this.

[SueQ]

Thanks all...I'm still pondering all of your thoughts and am grateful for your perspective...I love these conversations...they help me grow closer in my relationship with Him...iron sharpens iron... :)

[Mugirl04]

You are completely wrong. I am a former sinner, saved by grace.
We still sin though.

[middletree]

We still sin though.
Did I not say that?

[Mugirl04]

sorry Missed that line.

[SueQ]

How about "former lost sinner" and "saved sinner" ....maybe I'm just having an issue with semantics...one who teaches is a teacher....one who rides is a rider...one who sins is a sinner...

[Nilknarf]

How about "former lost sinner" and "saved sinner" ....maybe I'm just having an issue with semantics...one who teaches is a teacher....one who rides is a rider...one who sins is a sinner...

I can swing a stick at a ball, or even shell out a lot of money on equipment and greens fees; however, most people wouldn't be kind enough to call me a golfer..., Just because you engage in something on occasion (I don't treat sin that casually by the way) doesn't mean you are defined by it...

So although we do sin, it is not how we are defined in Gods eyes.

Keep Striving!

Frank

[eringilmour]

The reason why we sin is because we live in this world.

We were born into a sinful society.

Sin comes in different ways:

There is sin - when you know what you are doing isn't right but you do it any way. ie - stealing, lying, hatred.

And sin where you are not aware at the time you are sinning ie getting angry, feeling jealous, have lustful thoughts etc.

These things are all sin.

What you have to understand is that God has our hearts, but our minds are up for grab. That is why if you have ever noticed that you have a constant battle in our minds.

It is the war ground between God and the Devil. And it is the way people become mislead and therefore sin.

The battle will never end until that day when we are in heaven. All we can do is keep holding onto the truth and examining ourselfs.

The strive to be pure and holy is a long hard battle

[SueQ]

I can swing a stick at a ball, or even shell out a lot of money on equipment and greens fees; however, most people wouldn't be kind enough to call me a golfer..., Just because you engage in something on occasion (I don't treat sin that casually by the way) doesn't mean you are defined by it...

So although we do sin, it is not how we are defined in Gods eyes.

Keep Striving!

Frank

Sure, you can call yourself a golfer, maybe not a good one but still a golfer.....just like when I became a Christian...I wasn't the person I am today...I had to do a lot of growing....and still do ;)