abortion(against only please)

[heartbreakpres]

This did not go the direction I had planned, but I just wanted to direct random viewers towards the end posts becaue this has turned into a full fledged debate, and we can take more people for the ride. Just thought I would throw that out there! Thanks!


Hello,
I bet you are wondering what on earth I am doing starting an abrotion thread, but I am sooo against it, it's not even funny, and a friend of mine just had one and...I am doing my best not to strangle her. Anywayz, I am looking for any good quotes on abortion (against only) that I can put a forward together and spread it all over the place. I want people to understand how horrible it really is and put it in perspective for them. An example might be: "Isn't it a bit hypocritical to have been born and be pro abortion?" or "Aren't you glad your parents weren't pro choice?" or "Aren't you glad your parents wanted you?" Those are bumper stickers, but pics would be good, though I would probably cry at the sight of them. Anything would be appreciated. Thanks a lot! God Bless!
*~Heather~*

[middletree]

This is a spiritual issue. Those who are for abortion have been blinded by demonic forces, and your common sense bumper sticker sayings won't help them. Only God's Spirit revealing the truth can do that.

Instead of focusing on that, take your friend, the one you want to strangle, and be her friend. Chances are, she'll soon realize and regret what she has done. It's a terrible thing, but God can use it if she will turn to Him.

[Lauroli]

This is a spiritual issue. Those who are for abortion have been blinded by demonic forces, and your common snese bumper sticker sayings won't help them. Only God's Spirit revealing the truth can do that.

Instead of focusing on that, take your friend, the one you want to strangle, and be her friend. Chances are, she'll soon realize and regret what she has done. It's a terrible thing, but God can use it if she will turn to Him.

Excellent advice, Middletree! Even the woman "Jane Roe" who helped legalize abortion has come to Christ and realizes it's a wrong thing and is now campaigning to have abortion abolished again. Eventually, we all will kneel to Christ. I will pray that your friend bends her knees today instead of when it's too late.

Blessings...
Lynne

[heartbreakpres]

Thanks guys, I hear you and agree, but I am not putting together the forward to get people to turn against it, it is more to plant a seed, nomatter how small, just so they can have a nugget of knowlege to how wrong it is, I am here for my friend, she knows it, and she is still saying she has no regrets, not even having sex with the complete stranger, please keep her in your prayers, and I hope you understand what I am trying to do. Thanks again.
*~Heather~*

[Gomer Pyle]

I'm definitely against abortion. I dearly hate that sin, and it's become like so many others in that society in larger amounts doesn't see anything wrong with it. I don't think I could ever not love someone who had one, but I'd still hate that sin.

[heartbreakpres]

Thank you! I completely agree! Thanks for the pic and the quote! Very much.
*~Heather~*

[Thirddaywannabe]

Abortion is partially an issue of lack of love in one or more areas, and and good as they can make you feel, clever catchphrases don't really imply that love is present. Only God can show true love to a person, and that person has to see it, and it won't be mistaken for something else....true love always has God.

I can think of a song that comes to mind, that really might be what you're looking for, though.


"Meant To Live"

Fumbling his confidence
And wondering why the world has passed him by
Hoping that he's meant for more than arguments
And failed attempts to fly, fly

[Chorus]
We were meant to live for so much more
Have we lost ourselves?
Somewhere we live inside
Somewhere we live inside
We were meant to live for so much more
Have we lost ourselves?
Somewhere we live inside

Dreaming about Providence
And whether mice or men have second tries
Maybe we've been livin with our eyes half open
Maybe we're bent and broken, broken

[Chorus]

We want more than this world's got to offer
We want more than this world's got to offer
We want more than the wars of our fathers
And everything inside screams for second life, yeah

We were meant to live for so much more
Have we lost ourselves?
We were meant to live for so much more
Have we lost ourselves?
We were meant to live for so much more
Have we lost ourselves?
We were meant to live
We were meant to live

[heartbreakpres]

I agree, nonetheless, the forward will plant a seed, and I am most definitely putting a quote of scripture in there, I am doing my homework on this and thanks to you I will put that song in there too. I love Switchfoot. Thanks a lot! I am very ambitious to get my point out there, because people have such stuffy views, I cannot ever get my view out there I figured this is a way I will be able to. I want to at least try, and get all support i can from the people that are against it as well. If you are to get this email, it will be a while, but please, pass it on. Ya never know, something like this could open someones mind who is considering it and save a precious baby's life.
*~Heather~*

[mat1583]

I'm going to post a bit of scripture to get people thinking. Part of my own thoughts come from a great Devotional that I went to on Monday. It really made me search my own heart and sort of put me in the unbeliever's shoes.

Short synopsis: John chapter 12. Jesus has just recently raised Lazarus from the dead, a miracle that is seemingly undeniable proof that Jesus is the Messiah, yet there are still many, many people that do not believe. John 12:37 says, "But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. ". In the next couple verses, John goes on to explain how when the prophet Isaiah spoke, many did not believe. Isaiah said, "He had blinded their eyes, and He has hardened their heart; Lest they see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."

Does this strike you as strange? If not, then it should. Read it again. "He had blinded their eyes, and He has heardened their heart."

Wait...is Isaiah talking about God? Yes, of course he is. Now, does that strike you as strange? God is hardening peoples' hearts, and therefore they do not believe.

Ok, now that you're wondering where I'm going with this, let me continue. I'm sure some or most of you don't completely comprehend this passage. Why on earth would God (who so loved the world, that He gave His only Son) harden peoples' hearts like that? Good question. I'll start with an analogy that will get you going on the right track.

Do you remember when your mom used to tell you to clean your room, wash the dishes, or any other chore like that? Do you remember how you felt when she kept nagging at you to do it? I do. I remember getting mad and annoyed sometimes. I didn't want to make my bed! I was going to sleep in it later that night, so why make it right now. I didn't need to keep my room clean, I know all the places things are thrown on the floor and I like it that way.

Do you see where I'm going now? Like our mothers, God wants us to clean up. He wants us to be tidy. He wants us to be saved by Jesus' blood and accept salvation. He longs for us to be in heaven with Him. The problem is that we are a fallen race. We don't want to hear the good news. We don't want to see the bright light. We don't want to clean up. We like it perfectly fine where we're at, and telling us we're wrong and demanding that we change is only going to make us more steadfast in our stubborness, in our sin, and in our blindness. In fact, if I hear one more word about God, I might just kill somebody (figuratively).

You see, this is what happens to many unbelievers. It starts with a simple rejection. "I do not believe in God", or "I do not believe Jesus did all those miracles". Then it leads to malice against those who keep telling them that they are wrong, that there is something better than the life we have right now. Their hearts are hardened more and more by every time they hear "God" or "Jesus". Their hearts are hardened BY God, just the thought.

So how does all this tie into abortion? Simple. Many of those who are "pro abortion" (don't confuse this with pro choice, there is a difference) are steadfast in their belief. As someone else mentioned, they are blinded from the truth. They only see darkness, and it is the light and the TRUTH that heardens their hearts even more.

Don't get discouraged by all of this, however. I never said that all unbelievers are this way. We all know that is far from the truth. I have known many people that were blinded beyond what anyone could help, but by some miracle, the Spirit did enter their hearts and gave them salvation. I didn't post all this to say that you should just give up since peoples' hearts are hardened. I just wanted to give a better perception of how non-believers may react to hearing the TRUTH. There will be many whose hearts are just heardened by hearing it, and there will be those who open their eyes to the Light. Whatever you do though, never give up or be too discouraged. God wants us to continue our Discipleship, even if it means nobody believes.

P.S. Sorry for the extremely long post. These are just some of my late night thoughts, and I wanted to share them with anybody that cared to read. I hope it wasn't too long and boring ;) Night!

-washboard

[heartbreakpres]

wow, thank you so much, do you mind if I use some of that in my forward? Wow, I sound like nagging reporter.
*~Heather~*

[msscarlet82]

wow, thank you so much, do you mind if I use some of that in my forward? Wow, I sound like nagging reporter.
*~Heather~*

washie has some good points. i hate to be nitpicky, but could you use some punctuation in your posts? i couldn't read a thing you posted. it all blurred into one long run on sentence. in the future, please keep this in mind. thanks. :)

btw, i did a group presentation on this for my sociology class (ugh) last quarter. 3 of us die hard (no puns intended) pro-lifers against a class of liberal pro-choice pro-abortion people. :rolleyes: i dont think we got our message across, but we got it out infront of their eyes and ears. its been interesting to hear about our presentation after the fact. ;) the best quote i've seen to date has been "connor peterson was a murder victim too."

[mat1583]

washie has some good points. i hate to be nitpicky, but could you use some punctuation in your posts? i couldn't read a thing you posted. it all blurred into one long run on sentence. in the future, please keep this in mind. thanks. :)


Ummm...not to be nit picky or weird, but what on earth are you talking about? I'm sure there's maybe a mistake or two, but I proofread it all before I posted and after I saw your post. I used all the proper punctuation. I don't see what you're talking about. Maybe I'm crazy? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

-washboard

[4goodness'sake]

Heather,
I admire your wanting to change your world for the greater good - we need more people like you in the schools and society in general (I could learn a lot from you!). Like so many have said before, though, Love is the key to your effectiveness. I'll ask the HS to hide the following scripture in your heart:

I Corinthians 13:1-13 1: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2: And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3: If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4: Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;

5: it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

6: it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.

7: Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8: Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

9: For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;

10: but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

11: When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

12: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

13: So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[heartbreakpres]

Thank you very much, those will come in handy. And thank you, I just don't understand why people are put in jail for the murder of another human, that seeing as how he has been alive, he obviously has sinned, and yet, some people completely support the murder of an INNOCENT baby that has had no opportunity to sin, only love. It hurts to even think about ya know?

[firedupnat]

Thank you very much, those will come in handy. And thank you, I just don't understand why people are put in jail for the murder of another human, that seeing as how he has been alive, he obviously has sinned, and yet, some people completely support the murder of an INNOCENT baby that has had no opportunity to sin, only love. It hurts to even think about ya know?
i agree with u all its wrong

[4goodness'sake]

Thank you very much, those will come in handy. And thank you, I just don't understand why people are put in jail for the murder of another human, that seeing as how he has been alive, he obviously has sinned, and yet, some people completely support the murder of an INNOCENT baby that has had no opportunity to sin, only love. It hurts to even think about ya know?

I think I know what you mean - all babies are born into sin (which is why we need Christ) but babies are also innocent and helpless. I'm a compassionate conservative with a hardliner southern baptist background - you can imagine the struggle inside me on a daily basis! LOL ;) One minute I want to hug your friend and pray for her, and another minute I want to tell her what a numbskull she is and throw up my hands in exasperation. It's so good that none of us are God - we would totally screw everything up.

[middletree]

I just don't understand why. . .
I told you why. Because they have spiritual blinders on. Satan has blinded them.

[middletree]

One minute I want to hug your friend and pray for her
another minute I want to tell her what a numbskull she is

That last thing is what Satan does. First, he whispers to us to convince us to sin, then he accuses us. This girl doesn't need that. She needs a friend to hug her and love her. When she receives that love, then the Holy Spirit will remove her blinders and she will realize the depth of her sin. It's God's job to convict her, not ours. Once He makes her realize her sin, then the healing can begin.

[4goodness'sake]

That last thing is what Satan does. First, he whispers to us to convince us to sin, then he accuses us. This girl doesn't need that. She needs a friend to hug her and love her. When she receives that love, then the Holy Spirit will remove her blinders and she will realize the depth of her sin. It's God's job to convict her, not ours. Once He makes her realize her sin, then the healing can begin.

Yep, I think I know that. However, I am as Paul was sometimes - wanting to do one thing but doing another. That was my point.

[ICarlson99]

Psalm 139
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Here is a great site that pretty much covers all the issues (this is just one section, there are others):
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/responseargument4.html

Don't try to guilt her, speak the truth in love. Emphasis on both truth AND love.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Hello,
I bet you are wondering what on earth I am doing starting an abrotion thread, but I am sooo against it, it's not even funny, and a friend of mine just had one and...I am doing my best not to strangle her. Anywayz, I am looking for any good quotes on abortion (against only) that I can put a forward together and spread it all over the place. I want people to understand how horrible it really is and put it in perspective for them. An example might be: "Isn't it a bit hypocritical to have been born and be pro abortion?" or "Aren't you glad your parents weren't pro choice?" or "Aren't you glad your parents wanted you?" Those are bumper stickers, but pics would be good, though I would probably cry at the sight of them. Anything would be appreciated. Thanks a lot! God Bless!
*~Heather~*

instead of putting our flyers and bumper stickers and making God's word a cliche, why dont you volunteer at an abortion clinic and show the people involved the love of christ. a flyer or bumper sticker will do nothing to change people's minds. but the love of christ can and will.

so if this issue is really important to you, then dont take the easy way out. love these women. show them christ's love.

[jenniwren]

i don't post a lot but i lurk sometimes.

and this post has struck a nerve.

how many of you know this sin personally? how many of you actually have any clue what it is like to be faced with the temptation to have an abortion?

you all lust. every last one of you does.
you all lose your temper.

but im guessing this is a sin you know nothing about personally, but all jump very quickly to say how it is.

im going to preface my next statement by saying that i Love the Lord with all my heart and find my worth in the Cross of christ. my sins are washed clean by the blood of the lamb

i had an abortion when i was 17.

now...we can actually have a discussion.

[mat1583]

instead of putting our flyers and bumper stickers and making God's word a cliche, why dont you volunteer at an abortion clinic and show the people involved the love of christ. a flyer or bumper sticker will do nothing to change people's minds. but the love of christ can and will.

so if this issue is really important to you, then dont take the easy way out. love these women. show them christ's love.

That's part of the point I was trying to make by my earlier post. I'm not sure if anyone has really read it since it was so long :p. A lot of times, these people don't want to hear that "abortion is murder, and you are going to hell." That just makes them turn away even more. It's about showing them love and compassion and gently getting them to think about their mistake. Tulip is right though, there are so many cliche'd (sp?) Christian phrases around, and I wonder how effective if at all they are on the ubelieving crowd.

-washboard

[Kyle's dad]

I'm definitely against abortion. I dearly hate that sin, and it's become like so many others in that society in larger amounts doesn't see anything wrong with it. I don't think I could ever not love someone who had one, but I'd still hate that sin.

I love that picture and quote, is there any where that I could get that on a sticker?

[Howlin' Wolf]

i don't post a lot but i lurk sometimes.

and this post has struck a nerve.

how many of you know this sin personally? how many of you actually have any clue what it is like to be faced with the temptation to have an abortion?

you all lust. every last one of you does.
you all lose your temper.

but im guessing this is a sin you know nothing about personally, but all jump very quickly to say how it is.

im going to preface my next statement by saying that i Love the Lord with all my heart and find my worth in the Cross of christ. my sins are washed clean by the blood of the lamb

i had an abortion when i was 17.

now...we can actually have a discussion.


what?!?!?! you had an abortion?!?!?!

didnt you read all the bumper stickers and billboards!?!?!?!?!

just kidding

[Kyle's dad]

instead of putting our flyers and bumper stickers and making God's word a cliche, why dont you volunteer at an abortion clinic and show the people involved the love of christ. a flyer or bumper sticker will do nothing to change people's minds. but the love of christ can and will.

so if this issue is really important to you, then dont take the easy way out. love these women. show them christ's love.


When exactly did anybody say they were trying to take the easy way out? This person was just looking for some quotes that would plant some seeds. That doesn'y mean that she wouldn't also take more pro-active steps.

[jenniwren]

bumper stickers and billboards are the exact opposite of pro-active.

they made me want to not only kill my baby but kill myself also.

[Howlin' Wolf]

When exactly did anybody say they were trying to take the easy way out? This person was just looking for some quotes that would plant some seeds. That doesn'y mean that she wouldn't also take more pro-active steps.

the easy way out is doing anything to avoid talking and sharing with people and meeting them where they are

if this person is so concerned, then put down the propaganda and give these chics something real

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Remind them that over 532 million (http://www.all.org/issues/abstats.htm) babies have been killed in the United States alone. More than all of last century's wars put together, which they just so happen to protest against.

[Kyle's dad]

you all lust. every last one of you does.
you all lose your temper.

but im guessing this is a sin you know nothing about personally, but all jump very quickly to say how it is.

im going to preface my next statement by saying that i Love the Lord with all my heart and find my worth in the Cross of christ. my sins are washed clean by the blood of the lamb

i had an abortion when i was 17.

now...we can actually have a discussion.

In terms of my personal experience, you are right, I have never had to deal with the temptation of having an abortion. So I am in no position to judge anyone for having an abortion. Having said that, I will not back down on my opinion that abortion in and of itself is sin. That doesn't mean that I am going to condemn anybody, including you, who has had an abortion.And, I have not gotten the impression that anyone else here was doing that. But I will do what I can to prevent abortions from happening; like working for adoption awareness, volunteering at pregnancy crisis centers, and even stating my opinion on abortion, and maybe even putting a bumper sticker on my car.

[Howlin' Wolf]

In terms of my personal experience, you are right, I have never had to deal with the temptation of having an abortion. So I am in no position to judge anyone for having an abortion. Having said that, I will not back down on my opinion that abortion in and of itself is sin. That doesn't mean that I am going to condemn anybody, including you, who has had an abortion.And, I have not gotten the impression that anyone else here was doing that. But I will do what I can to prevent abortions from happening; like working for adoption awareness, volunteering at pregnancy crisis centers, and even stating my opinion on abortion, and maybe even putting a bumper sticker on my car.
a bumper sticker doesnt change a lost person's mind. you had me 100 percent until the bumper sticker

i think if more of these high and mighty christians would volunteer at preganancy crisis centers they would have a bit more grace

[Kyle's dad]

the easy way out is doing anything to avoid talking and sharing with people and meeting them where they are

if this person is so concerned, then put down the propaganda and give these chics something real


Again, when did she say that she was trying to avoid talking and sharing anything real. Maybe she is going to use these quotes as a way to start a conversation, you don't know what she has planned.

The easy way out is not even thinking about the problem at all, and just dismissing it as "not my problem." Be glad that she is trying to do anything at all, even if it's not an approach that you might find to be worthwhile.

There are too many people out there who do just dismiss it as not their problem.

[jenniwren]

In terms of my personal experience, you are right, I have never had to deal with the temptation of having an abortion. So I am in no position to judge anyone for having an abortion. Having said that, I will not back down on my opinion that abortion in and of itself is sin. That doesn't mean that I am going to condemn anybody, including you, who has had an abortion.And, I have not gotten the impression that anyone else here was doing that. But I will do what I can to prevent abortions from happening; like working for adoption awareness, volunteering at pregnancy crisis centers, and even stating my opinion on abortion, and maybe even putting a bumper sticker on my car.

i think im going to put a bumper sticker on my car that says:
"men who lust after naked women are dirty adultrers who deserve to be castrated"

thta im sure will stop the problem of men and their lust

[Kyle's dad]

a bumper sticker doesnt change a lost person's mind. you had me 100 percent until the bumper sticker



I was kind of joking about the bumper sticker. But, I don't think we need to discount them totally. I mean, they may not change a lost person's mind, but they could lead them to ask the person in the car about the sticker. You're right, it's only by meeting people where they are that real change is going to happen, but you never know what it will take to get people to think about something, and ask questions about it.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Again, when did she say that she was trying to avoid talking and sharing anything real. Maybe she is going to use these quotes as a way to start a conversation, you don't know what she has planned.

The easy way out is not even thinking about the problem at all, and just dismissing it as "not my problem." Be glad that she is trying to do anything at all, even if it's not an approach that you might find to be worthwhile.

There are too many people out there who do just dismiss it as not their problem.
in the NT times, there was obviously no abortion. however, when there was unwanted pregnancies, women would just leave the baby on the side of the road for the wolves to eat. jesus makes no mention of this, even though it is a terrible sin. why? because sinners sin. we should be more active in loving our girls in the youth group and affirming them(its insane the number of christian girls that have abortions because of fear of rejection from the church). that should be our first priority. show these young girls jesus. once we conquer the problem of the church, then we can take on the nation

voting for bush is not a fight against abortion. it is still legal. america is a lost nation, expecting anything less is futile
now with that being said, i abhor abortion. it is murder. but fight the battles we can win. we should never make a christian girl think about abortion because she is afraid of having a baby and the stigma within the church that goeas along with unwed mothers

[Kyle's dad]

i think im going to put a bumper sticker on my car that says:
"men who lust after naked women are dirty adultrers who deserve to be castrated"

thta im sure will stop the problem of men and their lust

Whatever, I never said that bumper stickers would stop abortion, I just meant that they are one way to express opposition.

[Howlin' Wolf]

i think im going to put a bumper sticker on my car that says:
"men who lust after naked women are dirty adultrers who deserve to be castrated"

thta im sure will stop the problem of men and their lust
brilliant!!!! :D

kyle's dad, everybody knows about abortion. a bumper sticker concerning your views will not be effective. just like people arent getting saved because of jesus fishes or "god is my co-pilot" stickers

[jenniwren]

I was kind of joking about the bumper sticker. But, I don't think we need to discount them totally. I mean, they may not change a lost person's mind, but they could lead them to ask the person in the car about the sticker. You're right, it's only by meeting people where they are that real change is going to happen, but you never know what it will take to get people to think about something, and ask questions about it.


that is pragmatic and irresponsible.

[mat1583]

i think im going to put a bumper sticker on my car that says:
"men who lust after naked women are dirty adultrers who deserve to be castrated"

thta im sure will stop the problem of men and their lust

It's not just men that lust. Unless it's rape, then it usually "takes two to tango". A man's lust may be somewhat stronger than a woman's, but it is still there in most women as well. Believe me, I've participated in a big purity group/bible study and had some good discussions with both sides.

Edit: Oh, ok. I gotcha. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

-washboard

[Kyle's dad]

in the NT times, there was obviously no abortion. however, when there was unwanted pregnancies, women would just leave the baby on the side of the road for the wolves to eat. jesus makes no mention of this, even though it is a terrible sin. why? because sinners sin. we should be more active in loving our girls in the youth group and affirming them(its insane the number of christian girls that have abortions because of fear of rejection from the church). that should be our first priority. show these young girls jesus. once we conquer the problem of the church, then we can take on the nation

voting for bush is not a fight against abortion. it is still legal. america is a lost nation, expecting anything less is futile
now with that being said, i abhor abortion. it is murder. but fight the battles we can win. we should never make a christian girl think about abortion because she is afraid of having a baby and the stigma within the church that goeas along with unwed mothers

I agree with everything you said except the part about not getting girls to think about abortion. Maybe I misunderstood you. We also need to get the whole church thinking about it, and how we can love and support our sisters who are struggling with an unexpected pregnancy, and our sisters who are struggling with the guilt of having an abortion.

[jenniwren]

I know you have some bitterness towards men and lust, but it's not just men that lust. Unless it's rape, then it usually "takes two to tango". A man's lust may be somewhat stronger than a woman's, but it is still there in most women as well. Believe me, I've participated in a big purity group/bible study and had some good discussions with both sides.

-washboard


OHHH HONEY, BELIEVE ME I KNOW THIS!!

but that isn't my point.
i said what i said to pointedly aim it at the person i was talking to.
i know women lust, i lust, and im not bitter toward men at all.

so excuse me...

"[people] who lust after naked [people] are dirty adultrers who deserve to be castrated"

[Kyle's dad]

that is pragmatic and irresponsible.

Care to expand, preferably without insults.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I know you have some bitterness towards men and lust, but it's not just men that lust. Unless it's rape, then it usually "takes two to tango". A man's lust may be somewhat stronger than a woman's, but it is still there in most women as well. Believe me, I've participated in a big purity group/bible study and had some good discussions with both sides.

-washboard
i dont think she has a problem with men lusting. i thin k she was making a point. why is homosexuality and abortion singled out? why is virginity worshipped? why is the only political platform that christians concern themselves with are homosexuality and abortion?

[Howlin' Wolf]

I agree with everything you said except the part about not getting girls to think about abortion. Maybe I misunderstood you. We also need to get the whole church thinking about it, and how we can love and support our sisters who are struggling with an unexpected pregnancy, and our sisters who are struggling with the guilt of having an abortion.
we need to worry about the church before we worry about politics.

[jenniwren]

I agree with everything you said except the part about not getting girls to think about abortion. Maybe I misunderstood you. We also need to get the whole church thinking about it, and how we can love and support our sisters who are struggling with an unexpected pregnancy, and our sisters who are struggling with the guilt of having an abortion.


lol, getting the church to think about abortion...THEY ARE OBSESSED WITH ABORTION!!! and i think goal is that we should support the girls who get pregnant, and are having sex, not having abortions, that sin is over and done with and forgotten and forgiven.

and i don't mean support them for having sex, i mean support them as real human beings who struggle with sin just like we all do.

[jenniwren]

I was kind of joking about the bumper sticker. But, I don't think we need to discount them totally. I mean, they may not change a lost person's mind, but they could lead them to ask the person in the car about the sticker. You're right, it's only by meeting people where they are that real change is going to happen, but you never know what it will take to get people to think about something, and ask questions about it.


im not insulting you, im just being real.

you say that they "may" or "may not" do whatever. you say you never know what it will take to get people to think about something. its just self righteous and very ignorant in the mean time(the bumperstickers). its the problem with the church, its micromanaging people and the real issues. if bumperstickers are uneffective, then they should not be used to evangelize america. anything can cause people to ask questions. what i question are people who drive around in big huge brand new SUV's with no passengers with those kinds of bumper stickers on their car. "im living a life of excess, no listen to me preach to you"

i could say that my abortion has given me a way to talk to people about Gods grace and love, and forgiveness, and also repercussions of sin. does that mean that a girl should go get an abortion. no. obviously. thats pragmatism. however the church likes to pick and choose what its allowed to be pragmatic about.

[Kyle's dad]

lol, getting the church to think about abortion...THEY ARE OBSESSED WITH ABORTION!!! and i think goal is that we should support the girls who get pregnant, and are having sex, not having abortions, that sin is over and done with and forgotten and forgiven.

and i don't mean support them for having sex, i mean support them as real human beings who struggle with sin just like we all do.


Well, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I said we should love and support our sisters who are struggling with unexpected pregnancies. I think they would be included in the group of women who are getting pregnant and having sex. And when I said we should support women who have had abortions, I meant helping them through their grief.

And if you think the church thinks about abortion you are crazy. We give off emotional knee-jerk reactions, but the last thing we do is actually think about it. If you think I am wrong, ask someone in your church what they think about abortion and try to see how much time they spend actually thinking before they give you an answer.

I obviously offended you in some way and I assure you I didn't mean it. I just happen to be somewhat passionate about this issue.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I said we should love and support our sisters who are struggling with unexpected pregnancies. I think they would be included in the group of women who are getting pregnant and having sex. And when I said we should support women who have had abortions, I meant helping them through their grief.

And if you think the church thinks about abortion you are crazy. We give off emotional knee-jerk reactions, but the last thing we do is actually think about it. If you think I am wrong, ask someone in your church what they think about abortion and try to see how much time they spend actually thinking before they give you an answer.

I obviously offended you in some way and I assure you I didn't mean it. I just happen to be somewhat passionate about this issue.
in regards to what the church thinks about abortion, i agree with you. they view it as an ugly sin that they must rid america of. but why girls do it? what causes it? who in the church has had one? they are oblivious. every cause has an effect. we must understand why the girls in our churches are considering and doing this.

[heartbreakpres]

jenniwren im going to preface my next statement by saying that i Love the Lord with all my heart and find my worth in the Cross of christ. my sins are washed clean by the blood of the lamb

i had an abortion when i was 17.

now...we can actually have a discussion.[/QUOTE]

I guess your right, I have never been faced with it personally, but since you did when you were my age, I will ask you the same question I asked my friend? do you mind telling me how you justify murdering an innocent baby? Because that is what it is. People preach against murder all they want, and they can say how they weren't ready for it, but why can't it be put up for an adoption? It is alive, it is not a fetus it is a living breathing human. Even through rape, how can you kill something so precious? I know, I was raped once, and if I would have been pregnant, I would have had it and put it up for adoption. So, one more question, were you a Christian at the time that you had an abortion? I do agree that your sins are washed by the blood of the Lord, but I stand firmly against abortion and will gladly debate and fight till the bitter end. I am stubborn and am the first to admit it.

[heartbreakpres]

what?!?!?! you had an abortion?!?!?!

didnt you read all the bumper stickers and billboards!?!?!?!?!

just kidding


Apparently unlike you, I don't find it funny in the least. No offense but I am sick of people bashing on the small things that people try to do when people shut their minds. Billboards and bumper stickers show the point of view the person has that owns them, and if you like you can stop them on the highway and chew them out. God does not approve of abortions nomatter the reason. Yes, he does forgive you, and forget, but that is still no excuse for it. Yes, people make mistakes, I make more than I can count a day, but this is a serious issue and it's not okay to joke about it. Whether you joke about the billboards and bumper stickers that are against it or not. It's just not okay.

[heartbreakpres]

When exactly did anybody say they were trying to take the easy way out? This person was just looking for some quotes that would plant some seeds. That doesn'y mean that she wouldn't also take more pro-active steps.

Thank you sooo much, I am taking it one step at a time and was hoping for some backup from my fellow Christians, and i was beginning to lose hope in some of them. Thank you very much, and to you Tulip, I plan on being more active in things, I am a little younger than people care to listen to. SO I am taking an anonymous route until I can make more of a difference.

[heartbreakpres]

the easy way out is doing anything to avoid talking and sharing with people and meeting them where they are

if this person is so concerned, then put down the propaganda and give these chics something real

Darling, like what? I am not the only person in the world that has been raped, I have held my friends through the abortions and scolded them later, like I said earlier, no one wants to listen to me. I am 17 and looked down upon because i have been raped. I have tried to go out and state my opinion and still do any chance i get, but people don't care what I have to say, but that doesn't stop me, and this is just to add on to what I want to accomplish, I garuntee you, I will get through to people, planting a seed was my first step in my new plan. And I really appreciate the way you ticked me off, it has motivated me even more. Thanks.

[heartbreakpres]

brilliant!!!! :D

kyle's dad, everybody knows about abortion. a bumper sticker concerning your views will not be effective. just like people arent getting saved because of jesus fishes or "god is my co-pilot" stickers

I hate to ask this but the bitterness you harbor towards everyone that opposes you, makes me think you are missing the love of the Lord. You take everything that everyone says and tweak it so you can be angry and say rude insulting things. As I asked in my post, I want only people that are against it in here, because I do not want to make people angry. You say you are against it, but you fight so hard to blame it on guys, and Jennwren acts the same because of her past. God does love and forgive, I am not trying to condem those that have already had one, I am trying to prevent more from occuring. And thank you Kyles dad for helping me out here, and all the rest of you that have been too.
*~Heather~*

[heartbreakpres]

i dont think she has a problem with men lusting. i thin k she was making a point. why is homosexuality and abortion singled out? why is virginity worshipped? why is the only political platform that christians concern themselves with are homosexuality and abortion?

Those are not the only things preached against, and they are preached against because they are NOT OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! Have you ever read the Bible!?!

[Kyle's dad]

we need to worry about the church before we worry about politics.


You have just pinpointed the heart of how the church has failed in regards to abortion. They have reduced this very human issue to a political issue.

I remember hearing about two church communities in Oakland that had both become very passionate about the abortion issue. One of them identified themselves as pro-life while the other one identified themselves as pro-choice. Needless to say this led to a great deal of polarization between the two communities.

Eventually the two pastors got together and tried to figure out a way that they could bring healing to the emotional wounds that had been inflicted on their communities. They realized the problem was that they had reduced this volatile, emotional, and human issue to a political issue.

When they began to focus on it as a human issue they began to see ways that they could work together to reach out to all sorts of people affected by abortion; teenagers who are coming to terms with their sexuality, sexually active people of all ages, women who find themselves struggling with an unexpected pregnancy, women struggling with grief over an abortion that they had from their past, families of someone considering or has had an abortion etc.

That is what I mean when I say the church needs to start thinking about abortion. We need to move beyond political pro-life and pro-choice ideologies and begin to see this as a human issue. Sure, we may talk about abortion in the church, but rarely does it go beyond knee-jerk emotional reactions.

[Kyle's dad]

Thank you sooo much, I am taking it one step at a time and was hoping for some backup from my fellow Christians, and i was beginning to lose hope in some of them. Thank you very much, and to you Tulip, I plan on being more active in things, I am a little younger than people care to listen to. SO I am taking an anonymous route until I can make more of a difference.


No problem, I just thought some people were giving you a little too hard a time. Good luck figuring out where God is leading you in responding to this issue. :D

[Lauroli]

i don't post a lot but i lurk sometimes.

and this post has struck a nerve.

how many of you know this sin personally? how many of you actually have any clue what it is like to be faced with the temptation to have an abortion?

you all lust. every last one of you does.
you all lose your temper.

but im guessing this is a sin you know nothing about personally, but all jump very quickly to say how it is.

im going to preface my next statement by saying that i Love the Lord with all my heart and find my worth in the Cross of christ. my sins are washed clean by the blood of the lamb

i had an abortion when i was 17.

now...we can actually have a discussion.

Very brave of you. I too speak from experience and after having two, (YES I SAID TWO), I know without a doubt that it's not only a sin, but murder. Am I forgiven having been washed clean and accepting Christ after the abortions? Many say I am, but in my heart, I will never forgive myself for murdering two innocent souls. It tortures me endlessly. Let me tell you all, it's not something you want to do... EVER . :(

[Lauroli]

Thank you sooo much, I am taking it one step at a time and was hoping for some backup from my fellow Christians, and i was beginning to lose hope in some of them. Thank you very much, and to you Tulip, I plan on being more active in things, I am a little younger than people care to listen to. SO I am taking an anonymous route until I can make more of a difference.

Your prayers and love of God and your family and friends WILL make the difference. You are planting seeds (even to those who refuse your seeds are getting them anyway) and you are doing what is right for your friend. Hang in there. I support you and you are NOT too young. You can make a difference if you keep trying.

I'm praying for you...
Lynne ;)

[heartbreakpres]

I am sorry, I should not have let myself go like that. I am sorry, tulip and Jenniwren, I get very passionate about this subject, and I should have contained myself better. Thank you to everyone, can we by chance just go back to any helpful things for the forward I want to make? I would really appreciate it. Thanks, and I apologize again.
*~Heather~*

[ICarlson99]

As a guy, I haven't had to directly face this issue. But I can tell you how it affected me as a youth. I knew that I could mess around with girls and pressure them into having sex because I could then pressure them into having an abortion and having no repurcussions for me. Fortunately it never came to that. My wife had abortions (before I met her), and we are both adamantly against it now that we have grown up.

The "safety net" of abortion has led to agressive attitudes towards sex (read Mother Teresa's letter to the Supreme Court), and the decoupling of sex from procreation. If you think the issue of abortion has ONLY to do with fetuses, you're missing the larger picture - the attitude towards sex in our culture. Which affects everyone of both genders.

[heartbreakpres]

What do you mean? (Not only about fetus')

[ICarlson99]

What do you mean? (Not only about fetus')

What I mean is that the culture of abortion is more than just about the actual abortion of a fetus, as horrible as that is in and of itself.

Abortion has resulted in unhealthy mental attitudes towards sex and children (i.e. decoupling sex from procreation) which manifest into unhealthy physical behaviors (aggressively pursuing sex, even to the point of rape knowing the girl can also be pressured into an abortion to get rid of the 'evidence' in the case of date-rape - especially among young girls with older men (a California study showed those who had abortions under the age of 16 had partners on average 7 years older than them, think they were pressured?) - not to mention the increase of STDs, increasing promiscuity which starts younger and younger each year). These attitudes and behaviors are unhealthy for the individuals involved and society as a whole.

I hope that makes sense. Here's the quote from Mother Teresa's letter to the Supreme Court and a link to all of it if you'd like to read it - she's probably more eloquent than I am on this:

"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships.

It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society.
It has portrayed the greatest of gifts—a child—as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered domination over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters.

And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners."

http://www.drini.com/motherteresa/own_words/

[middletree]

I am as convinced as anyone here that abortion is wrong and should be illegal. However, I don't see it as a problem that must be protested against. I see it as a symptom of the problem. The problem is a nation that has turned its back on Jesus. Solve that problem and abortion won't be nearly as prevelant as it currently is.

[ICarlson99]

I am as convinced as anyone here that abortion is wrong and should be illegal. However, I don't see it as a problem that must be protested against. I see it as a symptom of the problem. The problem is a nation that has turned its back on Jesus. Solve that problem and abortion won't be nearly as prevelant as it currently is.

I don't see it as an either/or proposition. No offense but this sounds like a recipe for "do-nothing-ness" (as in, the problem of 'the nation turning its back on Jesus' is so large, it's impractical to tackle and what happens is - nothing, with the exception of lamenting about the nation turning it's back on Jesus). It's a bit like saying we shouldn't protest suicide bombings because if we could just focus world peace it would take care of itself. It's a true statement, but it's pragmatically meaningless because it's a hugely complex problem.

We can surely overturn Roe v Wade through elections and court appointments and citizen pressures (on legislatures, not women). At the same time we can eliminate the causes of abortion as well. And do it through logic and compassion by supporting or working at clinics that help women in these tragic situations, as well as adoption.

[middletree]

I disagree with pretty much your entire post. We should discourage abortion, because besides killing babies, it kills the souls of young girls. But we should not place our hopes for eliminating US abortions on anti-abortion campaigns, or even having the right judges or legislators in place. As long as our nation openly accepts other lifestyle choices which cause men to lust and to treat women as sexual playthings, then unwanted pregnancies are going to happen, and abortions will follow suit.

In contrast, get out the message about Jesus, and how much He loves you, and most girls will have the self-respect to say no. And get out the message that Jesus' plan for our lives will bring us more joy than the world system, and men who receive that message will make the right choices as well.

I'm not saying that this will reduce the abortion rate to zero. But it'll be more effective than bumper stickers.

I hope I've made it clear that I am not for doing nothing. Something needs to be done. But applying a bad solution to the problem isn't going to be better than doing nothing.

The heart is what matters, because our heart is what motivates us. We need to focus on changing hearts.

[ICarlson99]

Again, it doesn't have to be one or the other. That was my larger point. I've never once mentioned bumper stickers - you don't think making it illegal will help reducing the number of abortions? How about changing the law AS A WAY of showing love - love for the unborn?

[middletree]

Again, it doesn't have to be one or the other. That was my larger point. I've never once mentioned bumper stickers - you don't think making it illegal will help reducing the number of abortions? How about changing the law AS A WAY of showing love - love for the unborn?
Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about unrealistic expectations. My mistake.

It is my prediction that because of the mindset of people, and the attitude of the media, abortion on demand will never, ever be illegal in the US, until Jesus Himself returns.

[ICarlson99]

Wow, I'm sorry you have such a dour outlook.

We must have completely different perspectives if you think getting the nation to turn its eyes to Jesus (a noble task) is more realistic than getting abortion on demand (which the overwhelming majority of Americans, Congressmen and Senators is against) outlawed.

I must confess I think partial-birth abortion will be banned before everyone in the country converts to Christianity.

[middletree]

Wow, I'm sorry you have such a dour outlook.


In general, I'm not. But I am realistic, and on this one topic, I think that outlawing abortion on demand is unrealistic, barring a miracle.

We must have completely different perspectives if you think getting the nation to turn its eyes to Jesus (a noble task) is more realistic than getting abortion on demand (which the overwhelming majority of Americans, Congressmen and Senators is against) outlawed.


That's because changing laws is a man-made task. Revival is spiritual, and can be done. Staistically, more people are turning to Jesus than ever before. I am not aware of abortion stats. Maybe they're up, maybe they're down.

I must confess I think partial-birth abortion will be banned before everyone in the country converts to Christianity.

I thought that since it's so barbaric, it would be easy to pass such a ban. But it has, in fact, been very difficult. Bush hasn't been able to get it done in 5 years in office, with a group of legislators from both parties that all claim to be against the procedure.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Maybe pursuing a political solution to the problem is a wise first step. Certainly, there are personal problems with this issue that have to be dealt with. Very seldomly do we make the right choices (I don't care who you are, this is the case with everyone) and there naturaly has to be support, for any of them. But pursuing this in a political way is also a help. A great one if fact, because it then stops being generally viewed as acceptable in the first place. And trust me, a huge amount of the population relly on the government to declare our moral absolutes, this for one, would elimnate that.

In addition, it would open many many many doors to federal support for groups of ladies who are having a hard time finding peace based on their past. It's certainly not the final solution (outlawing an action never was) but it helps.

As far as our chances of outlawing it... well... miracles is only word that comes to mind.

[heartbreakpres]

First of all, knowing my opinions, it is obvious who I agree with, however, I understand the opposing views to an extent, yes, making abortions illegal would take a miracle before Jesus returns, but wouldn't turning everyones eyes to him be just as difficult to do until He came back as well? I don't understand why you think it is so futile to at least try to lessen the population of murdered babies? How can you have such little hope and be so negative and pessimistic, though you have said you're "realistic" it is pessimistic and negative in my eyes. What makes it so wrong to have hope that the amount of abortions will drop? You all treat it like anyone who agrees with me are ignorant and stupid. We know what is going on, we know how fruitlesss our efforts may prove to be, yet we continue to try, and I believe that THAT shows character and maybe THAT will be what the world will need, maybe the people committing these murders will see our persistence and their eyes may be opened. Yes, it will take a miracle, but perhaps Jesus will perform one.
*~Heather~*

[ICarlson99]

And trust me, a huge amount of the population relly on the government to declare our moral absolutes, this for one, would elimnate that.

Yes, sadly, yes.

And to clarify, I'm not suggesting ALL abortions being outlawed is realistic. I think eliminating SOME is realistic (hence no longer abortion on demand). The problem is certain judges that overturn all these laws, which is why the battle over judicial nominees IS a big deal. And it DOES have very real consequences.

[chrissee]

JenniWren,
You really need to think about what you are posting. If it hit a nerve, pray about it, but you DO sound bitter, and whatever you have been through in your life, let God take control. But you know as a christian that abortion is sooo wrong, and yes, you had one, you committed the sin, but God has forgiven you. No one is talking against what you did in the past, it is the present and future that really matters. What I am getting out of you is that you are pro choice and are for abortions. It saddens me. The little ones that don't even get a chance at life. Does that bother you at all?

[Howlin' Wolf]

JenniWren,
You really need to think about what you are posting. If it hit a nerve, pray about it, but you DO sound bitter, and whatever you have been through in your life, let God take control. But you know as a christian that abortion is sooo wrong, and yes, you had one, you committed the sin, but God has forgiven you. No one is talking against what you did in the past, it is the present and future that really matters. What I am getting out of you is that you are pro choice and are for abortions. It saddens me. The little ones that don't even get a chance at life. Does that bother you at all?
i know jenniwren
she is as anti-abortion as anybody here. the difference between her and the rest of you all(except myself and quite possibly middletree) is that she is adamant about the ineffectiveness of flyers and bumperstickers and billboards. everybody knows that christians are generally pro-life. i dont need to where a t-shirt that says that.

in addition, abortion is a sin, just like lust, greed, malice, and the like. it is no different. however, we accept people that commit other sins. it seems like homosexuality and abortion are 2 sins that we immediatly become enraged by. and then we put a sticker on our car so that everybody knows we hate that sin. and more than likely, we usually hate the sinner

does that bother you at all? or have you already made your sign to go protest infront of city hall

i agree with everything middletree has said on this issue. you dont like the rules, then change the people. convert the people and the rules will change

picketing and protesting is a waste of time that alienates the people you are protesting thus losing any relevance with them

[Kyle's dad]

i know jenniwren
she is as anti-abortion as anybody here. the difference between her and the rest of you all(except myself and quite possibly middletree) is that she is adamant about the ineffectiveness of flyers and bumperstickers and billboards. everybody knows that christians are generally pro-life. i dont need to where a t-shirt that says that.




Why do you make such a stinking big deal over the fact that some people who aren't in favor of abortion choose to express themselves via a t-shirt or bumper sticker? If you don't want to, that's fine. I don't wear anti-abortion t-shirts or put anti-abortion bumper stickers on my car, but I don't assume that just because somebody does that they are self-righteous hate-mongers. I figure it just means that they are expressing themselves.

You say that anti-abortion bumper stickers and t-shirts are polarizing. If the sight of a pro-life bumper sticker or t-shirt is all it takes for a person to experience polarization then they have some deep-seeded issues that are much more to blame.

[heartbreakpres]

Why do you make such a stinking big deal over the fact that some people who aren't in favor of abortion choose to express themselves via a t-shirt or bumper sticker? If you don't want to, that's fine. I don't wear anti-abortion t-shirts or put anti-abortion bumper stickers on my car, but I don't assume that just because somebody does that they are self-righteous hate-mongers. I figure it just means that they are expressing themselves.

You say that anti-abortion bumper stickers and t-shirts are polarizing. If the sight of a pro-life bumper sticker or t-shirt is all it takes for a person to experience polarization then they have some deep-seeded issues that are much more to blame.


I completley agree Kyles dad. Excuse me if I repeat myself a bit but...Tulip, there is a thing called freedom of both speech and press. And if people can choose whether or not to murder a baby then opposing sides can just as easily wear t-shirts and put bumper stickers on expressing their opinions. I agree that converting them would be a lot more effective but as Middletree pointed out, that would take a miracle, but you also have to take into consideration, that God knows who will accept Him and who won't, so maybe, just throwing our views, or reality out there, will save a few babies lives. For some, it is a lot easier to convince someone that a murder is wrong, than it is to make them believe and or accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Some are atheists, some are agnostic, and some are nothing. That doesn't mean I am giving up on them, because in my eyes, everyone deserves a chance at eternal life with Jesus. But seeing as how both saving a baby from pre-meditated murder, and showing someone the Lord, and them accepting it would take miracles, saving the baby seems more plausible to me. The Lord will do His works, and works in mysterious ways, I have no idea what His plan is or what order it will come in, but He will fulfill (sp) His plan. I will do anything I can to save babies lives, and if a bumper sticker can make someone think that it really is murder at least plant a seed, then it would be worth it whether you believe it is or not. As I asked earlier, why are you so negative and pessimistic about this? Why can't those of us against it voice it while those for it can at will? What will it take for you to realize that "it will take a miracle" to shut me and those that agree with me up?

[Lauroli]

In contrast, get out the message about Jesus, and how much He loves you, and most girls will have the self-respect to say no.

...and what about the guys having the self respect to keep themselves clean and NOT ask in the first place? Why, in the 21st Century are we still making women responsible for everything sinful?

Middle - I'm sure that you did not mean to imply that only women are responsible; however, it's still an issue.

Muslims believe that if a woman is raped, it's her fault for being seductive. This is why they cover the women in a burka.

Christians haven't been fair to women (nor the Bible) ever. I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I'm just making sure that when we discuss abortion, we discuss it with all people concerned. Not just the women's issue.

Blessings...
Lynne

[Howlin' Wolf]

I completley agree Kyles dad. Excuse me if I repeat myself a bit but...Tulip, there is a thing called freedom of both speech and press. And if people can choose whether or not to murder a baby then opposing sides can just as easily wear t-shirts and put bumper stickers on expressing their opinions. I agree that converting them would be a lot more effective but as Middletree pointed out, that would take a miracle, but you also have to take into consideration, that God knows who will accept Him and who won't, so maybe, just throwing our views, or reality out there, will save a few babies lives. For some, it is a lot easier to convince someone that a murder is wrong, than it is to make them believe and or accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Some are atheists, some are agnostic, and some are nothing. That doesn't mean I am giving up on them, because in my eyes, everyone deserves a chance at eternal life with Jesus. But seeing as how both saving a baby from pre-meditated murder, and showing someone the Lord, and them accepting it would take miracles, saving the baby seems more plausible to me. The Lord will do His works, and works in mysterious ways, I have no idea what His plan is or what order it will come in, but He will fulfill (sp) His plan. I will do anything I can to save babies lives, and if a bumper sticker can make someone think that it really is murder at least plant a seed, then it would be worth it whether you believe it is or not. As I asked earlier, why are you so negative and pessimistic about this? Why can't those of us against it voice it while those for it can at will? What will it take for you to realize that "it will take a miracle" to shut me and those that agree with me up?

:rolleyes:

fine, go wear your t-shirts and point and stare. make God's word a cliche and put it on a bumper sticker. wear a big plackard that denounces one sin while you, yourself are full of sin. continue in trying to place your moral standards over a lost nation.

and report back with how many people you actually reach....my guess...zero

[Kyle's dad]

:rolleyes:

fine, go wear your t-shirts and point and stare. make God's word a cliche and put it on a bumper sticker. wear a big plackard that denounces one sin while you, yourself are full of sin. continue in trying to place your moral standards over a lost nation.

and report back with how many people you actually reach....my guess...zero


Fine, and you keep belieiving that anybody who disagrees with you are narrow-minded hate mongers trying to make God's word a cliche' all because they choose to express themselves in a way that you might not choose to. I guess we all just can't be quite as enlightened as you can we? :rolleyes:

[ICarlson99]

Fine, and you keep belieiving that anybody who disagrees with you are narrow-minded hate mongers trying to make God's word a cliche' all because they choose to express themselves in a way that you might not choose to. I guess we all just can't be quite as enlightened as you can we? :rolleyes:

Amen.

Tulip - my friend has a bumper sticker that says "Adoption - A Better Option". I think it's a perfect pro-life statement that doesn't condemn anyone. Does that make him a bad Christian?

[heartbreakpres]

Thank you Tuilp, I am sooo sorry, that I am not as "realistic" and intelligent as you are. We are not making God's word a cliche' we are simply trying to get people to understand the magnitude of what they are doing. You may think that is wrong, but I belive your wrong, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, otherwise we will bite each other's heads off.

[4goodness'sake]

Heather - You are an inspiration because as young as you are you have not fallen into the trap of the "tolerance" cop-out so prevelant among your "enlightened" crowd.

Have you ever heard the old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? Well, as Christians we don't have to morally do as the unbelieving world; however playing the same kind of game works pretty well. I think we've all seen bumper stickers that speak out for the gay agenda, pro-abortion crowds, etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting the world know that there is another side to the story via bumper stickers, t-shirts, etc.

Some people may think that the only opinion out there happens to be the extreme left agenda because of the media and some celebrities and politicians. When you sit smugly on the fence and all you ever do is criticize both sides, never actually doing anything, I think you run the risk of being lukewarm and pukish.

Kudos to all the Christians who dare to wear Bible verses on their clothing, who dare to make statements through bumper stickers, who help build homes for the homeless, who stand in the pulpit and preach a good Word, who sit and hold a dying person's hand, who love the neglected children, who send money abroad to build churches, who pass out tracts on the corner, who defend our country from danger, who hug the unlovely in the school halls, who pray for their enemies, and on and on and on - You are my heros.

I don't put a bumper sticker on my car or wear a t-shirt that makes a statement because I'm afraid as soon as I do, I'll be the first one to cut someone off in traffic or say something curt to a cashier. I'm thrilled for the people who can have Christian bumper stickers and t-shirts and not do stupid and impulsive things! Having said that, however; I can send money, visit the sick, make food for the homebound, etc.

God calls each of us to be different ambassadors for him to reach all of the different situations, cultures, sins, etc. How can anyone say that you shouldn't try to make a difference through any available God-led channel?

Carry on girlfriend!!!!!

Allison

[larryl]

let me chime in, since t-shirts and bumperstickers have become central to this......somehow.....we need to worry more about how we act, how we, as christians portray ourselves. i personally find most christian/anti-abortion/whatever t-shirts to be cheesy to the point of being offensive......i can't imagine how those who aren't christians view them...

i think derek webb addressed this issue quite well.......

t-shirts (what we should be known for)
(words and music by derek webb)

they'll know us by the t-shirts that we wear
they'll know us by the way we point and stare
at anyone whose sin looks worse than ours
who cannot hide the scars of this curse that we all bare

they’ll know us by our picket lines and signs
they’ll know us by the pride we hide behind
like anyone on earth is living right
and isn’t that why Jesus died
not to make us think we’re right

chorus
when love, love, love
is what we should be known for
love, love, love
it’s the how and it’s the why
we live and breathe and we die

they’ll know us by reasons we divide
and how we can’t seem to unify
because we’ve gotta sing songs a certain style
or we’ll walk right down that aisle
and just leave ‘em all behind

they’ll know us by the billboards that we make
just turning God’s words to cheap clichés
says “what part of murder don’t you understand?”
but we hate our fellow man
and point a finger at his grave

chorus
they'll know us by the t-shirts that we wear
they'll know us by the way we point and stare
telling ‘em their sins are worse than ours
thinking we can hide our scars
beneath these t-shirts that we wear

[Lauroli]

thats right guys, because jesus and john the baptist walked around with t-shirts that said "down with caesar!" and "equal rights for jews!". i remember reading in the gospel of theonomy 2:13 wear jesus had a bumper sticker on his donkey cart that said "healing is ok on the sabbath!!" :rolleyes:

get a life and reach the people. non-believers will act like non-believers. who are you to try and im pose your morality onto them??? and a bumper stickers go unnoticed. think about it...seriously...has a pro-choice bumpersticker made you think, "well maybe its ok under certain circumstances".....hell no, it hasnt!!! so if you honestly think that a "christian" (and i use that word lightly) bumper sticker about political issues will change minds then you are dillusional

put yourself in the shoes for a non-believer just once...please, i'm begging you. if you cant think like they think, you will be unable to meet them where they are and lose all credibility with them

I went to your blog/website and found out just who you are. You have discredited yourself as a Christian in my book. I could care less about your morning bowel movements or the language in which you use to portray them. I'm not surprised you've been booted from here before. I won't be surprised when you get booted again. :rolleyes: If anyone needs to delve more deeply into the Word of God, it would be you. I pray for you.

[4goodness'sake]

let me chime in, since t-shirts and bumperstickers have become central to this......somehow.....we need to worry more about how we act, how we, as christians portray ourselves. i personally find most christian/anti-abortion/whatever t-shirts to be cheesy to the point of being offensive......i can't imagine how those who aren't christians view them...


I've seen some really cool Christian shirts that make me stop and think too. I think it should be wear a Christian t-shirt day tomorrow. :)

[QUOTE)Heather - You are an inspiration because as young as you are you have not fallen into the trap of the "tolerance" cop-out so prevelant among your "enlightened" crowd.

Have you ever heard the old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? Well, as Christians we don't have to morally do as the unbelieving world; however playing the same kind of game works pretty well. I think we've all seen bumper stickers that speak out for the gay agenda, pro-abortion crowds, etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting the world know that there is another side to the story via bumper stickers, t-shirts, etc.

Some people may think that the only opinion out there happens to be the extreme left agenda because of the media and some celebrities and politicians. When you sit smugly on the fence and all you ever do is criticize both sides, never actually doing anything, I think you run the risk of being lukewarm and pukish.

Kudos to all the Christians who dare to wear Bible verses on their clothing, who dare to make statements through bumper stickers, who help build homes for the homeless, who stand in the pulpit and preach a good Word, who sit and hold a dying person's hand, who love the neglected children, who send money abroad to build churches, who pass out tracts on the corner, who defend our country from danger, who hug the unlovely in the school halls, who pray for their enemies, and on and on and on - You are my heros.

I don't put a bumper sticker on my car or wear a t-shirt that makes a statement because I'm afraid as soon as I do, I'll be the first one to cut someone off in traffic or say something curt to a cashier. I'm thrilled for the people who can have Christian bumper stickers and t-shirts and not do stupid and impulsive things! Having said that, however; I can send money, visit the sick, make food for the homebound, etc.

God calls each of us to be different ambassadors for him to reach all of the different situations, cultures, sins, etc. How can anyone say that you shouldn't try to make a difference through any available God-led channel?

Carry on girlfriend!!!!!

Allison[/QUOTE]

[larryl]

I've seen some really cool Christian shirts that make me stop and think too. I think it should be wear a Christian t-shirt day tomorrow. :)
[/QUOTE]


i can't.......i got rid of all of mine....

[4goodness'sake]

i can't.......i got rid of all of mine....[/QUOTE]

Why did you have any to start with?

[VanTil]

In the second century an unknown author wrote this about the Christians, it's called the Epistola ad Diognetum.


The Christians are not distinguished from other men by country, by language, nor by civil institutions. For they neither dwell in cities by themselves, nor use a peculiar tongue, nor lead a singular mode of life. They dwell in the Grecian or barbarian cities, as the case may be; they follow the usage of the country in dress, food, and the other affairs of life.

Yet they present a wonderful and confessedly paradoxical conduct. They dwell in their own native lands, but as strangers. They take part in all things, as citizens; and they suffer all things as foriegners. Every foreign country is a fatherland to them, and every native land is a foreign. They marry, like all others; they have children; but do not cast away their offspring. They have the table in common, but not wives. They are in the flesh, but do not live in the flesh. They live upon the earth, but are citizens of heaven. They obey the existing laws, and excel the laws by their lives. They love all, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown, and yet they are condemned. They are killed and are made alive. They are poor and make many rich. They lack all things, and in all things abound. They are reproached, and glory in their reproaches. They are calumniated, and are justified. They are cursed, and they bless. They receive scorn, and they give honor. They do good, and are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice, as being made alive. By the Jews they are attacked as aliens, and by the Greeks persecuted; and the cause of the enmity their enemies cannot tell. In short, what the soul is in the body, the Christians are in the world. The soul is diffused through all the members of the body, and the Christians are spread through the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, but it is not of the body; so the Christians dwell in the world, but are not of the world. The soul, invisible, keeps watch in the visible body; so also the Christians are seen to live in the world, but their piety is invisible. The flesh hates and wars against the soul, suffering no wrong from it, but because it resists fleshly pleasures; and the world hates the Christians with no reason, but that they resist its pleasures. The soul loves the flesh and members, by which it is hated; so the Christians love their haters. The soul is inclosed in the body, but holds the body together; so the Christians are detained in the world as in a prison; but they contain the world. Immortal, the soul dwells in the mortal body; so the Christians dwell in the corruptible, but look for incorruption in heaven. The soul is the better for restriction in food and drink; and the Christians increase, though daily punished. This lot God has assigned to the Christians in the world; and it cannot be taken from them.

Note what the author says concerning what does not differientiate them, language, civil instiutions, where they make their home, their use of a particular tongue, a singular mode of life, their dress, their food etc.

Compare this to our American evangelical Christianity. We have our own subculture "language" or "tongue". We segregate ourselves every chance we get, have our own "dress" (which ironically looks remarkably similar to the logos and marketing tag lines of the "worldly people" we are supposedly distinguishing ourselves from), our own bookstores, movies, schools, tv networks, food, music, etc.

The sad thing about that though is that we aren't even very good or even original about it. We're content to slap the name of our Lord and Saviour and our God on shirt in the shape of a crest logo (a violation of the third commandment I would contend). God help us if we are every actually persecuted as Christians in other countries are.

Note the second paragraph too though. The Christians did not completely remove themselves from the culture they were in, but neither did they assimilate into it. It is the "paradoxical conduct" of those saints that went before us that redeemed culture.

I think the point Tulip is trying to make is that bumperstickers and other such "statements" are merely attempts to get rid of a symptom of the disease. The problem itself is not abortion or homosexuality or violence on tv or whatever sin you want to name. The problem is that we are all born evil. From the womb we are all wicked sinful people. So if we only address abortion and homosexuality individually we may succeed in behavior modification but there will be no transformation or renewal.

The second problem I think Tulip has (and I have) is the hierarchy of sins we have created. It's more comfortable for us for abortion or homosexuality to be an abomination. It gets uncomfortable really quick when we realize lying is also an abomination (Prov. 6.17) and merits condemnation just as much. Why, because we are liars. We feel good when can look at the murder or rapist or homosexual and say "I'm not perfect but at least I don't ______". We can fit the checklist of things to do to be accepted by God to fit our taste. If I don't drink beer or watch that R rated movie, or say that cuss word I'm ok, God owes me now. Jesus tells us that the person who lust is as guilty as the adulterer though, the angry person as guilty as the murderer.

it's sinners that Jesus came to call, not people who only do "little" sins or socially acceptable sins, but the repentant sinners, the prostitutes and tax collectors (people who committed the "big" sins);

28"What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' 29And he answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, 'I go, sir,' but did not go. 31Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

-Matthew 21

[VanTil]

I don't put a bumper sticker on my car or wear a t-shirt that makes a statement because I'm afraid as soon as I do, I'll be the first one to cut someone off in traffic or say something curt to a cashier. I'm thrilled for the people who can have Christian bumper stickers and t-shirts and not do stupid and impulsive things!

Would it be so terrible if non-Christians found out we really are sinners? That we really are impatient and rude sometimes. Would it be so bad if they saw us for what we are, broken, weak people; and our Saviour for what He is, strong and compassionate, patient and full of grace and truth? Would it be so bad if they saw that our righteousness comes compltely from Christ and not from ourselves.

Until we are real sinners we will not have a real Saviour.

I'm not saying we should not act in accordance with the gospel. I think that the idea of having a mask of righteousness doesn't benefit us at all.

[4goodness'sake]

Would it be so terrible if non-Christians found out we really are sinners? That we really are impatient and rude sometimes. Would it be so bad if they saw us for what we are, broken, weak people; and our Saviour for what He is, strong and compassionate, patient and full of grace and truth? Would it be so bad if they saw that our righteousness comes compltely from Christ and not from ourselves.

Until we are real sinners we will not have a real Saviour.

I'm not saying we should not act in accordance with the gospel. I think that the idea of having a mask of righteousness doesn't benefit us at all.

I don't mind people knowing that I'm not perfect in my actions all the time at all! However, I also don't want nonbelievers to use my poor judgements as a reason to continue in their unbelief. I don't want to be a stumbling block to someone else's spiritual journey. I'm saying that there are others much better than I am at wearing Christian t-shirts and having Christian bumper stickers on their cars.

[larryl]

i can't.......i got rid of all of mine....

Why did you have any to start with?[/QUOTE]


as a young teenager, i felt i should have all manner of christian t-shirts. it wasn't until later that my feelings changed on the subject.

[larryl]

just FYI....i don't think they are all cheesy just because they are christian......i think they are, for the most part, poorly designed. they are too many copies of some "secular" shirt (can a shirt even BE secular?) with a christian message substituted for the original. tacky, and cheesy. and un-original.

what it says to me is "christians aren't creative enough to come up with a good t-shirt design, so we will steal the coca-cola logo and make it say Jesus Christ instead" (or god's gym, or abreadcrumb and fish, or whatever)

sorry for the high-jack.....this is a topic that bothers me.....

[4goodness'sake]

just FYI....i don't think they are all cheesy just because they are christian......i think they are, for the most part, poorly designed. they are too many copies of some "secular" shirt (can a shirt even BE secular?) with a christian message substituted for the original. tacky, and cheesy. and un-original.

what it says to me is "christians aren't creative enough to come up with a good t-shirt design, so we will steal the coca-cola logo and make it say Jesus Christ instead" (or god's gym, or abreadcrumb and fish, or whatever)

sorry for the high-jack.....this is a topic that bothers me.....

Ok - I think I understand where you're coming from, and it probably doesn't count as an official highjack - it was relative. ;)

[heartbreakpres]

thats right guys, because jesus and john the baptist walked around with t-shirts that said "down with caesar!" and "equal rights for jews!". i remember reading in the gospel of theonomy 2:13 wear jesus had a bumper sticker on his donkey cart that said "healing is ok on the sabbath!!" :rolleyes:

get a life and reach the people. non-believers will act like non-believers. who are you to try and im pose your morality onto them??? and a bumper stickers go unnoticed. think about it...seriously...has a pro-choice bumpersticker made you think, "well maybe its ok under certain circumstances".....hell no, it hasnt!!! so if you honestly think that a "christian" (and i use that word lightly) bumper sticker about political issues will change minds then you are dillusional

put yourself in the shoes for a non-believer just once...please, i'm begging you. if you cant think like they think, you will be unable to meet them where they are and lose all credibility with them


Who says we can't think like they do? The only problem I have with understanding them is how they can justify murder for their mistake and/or anyones mistake. I can see why they MIGHT think it, but only to an extent. Why can't you refrain from being such a jerk? Is it that hard to just be nice, and debate without insults and rude remarks? If it is, stop reading this thread. I am so sick of you being so incredibly rude, just to get your point across. Everyone knows, you are against it, but you are angry with the idiots such as myself that can't fathom why a person would kill a precious little baby in their womb. I know, you think I am stupid, naive and whatever else, no you haven't SAID that but that is how I have taken it. Now, if you can't stop acting like a 2 year old, and stop bullying everyone that thinks controversially to you, then please do not read or post at this thread anymore. I did not make it so that I or anyone that agrees with me could be insulted. Debates and disagreements, etc are okay, but you are just being rude for no reason and i am sick of it. So please, just stop if you can't be nice, don't post at all.
*~Heather~*

[heartbreakpres]

I don't mind people knowing that I'm not perfect in my actions all the time at all! However, I also don't want nonbelievers to use my poor judgements as a reason to continue in their unbelief. I don't want to be a stumbling block to someone else's spiritual journey. I'm saying that there are others much better than I am at wearing Christian t-shirts and having Christian bumper stickers on their cars.


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[middletree]

...and what about the guys having the self respect to keep themselves clean and NOT ask in the first place? Why, in the 21st Century are we still making women responsible for everything sinful?

Middle - I'm sure that you did not mean to imply that only women are responsible; however, it's still an issue.

Lynne:

Sorry for the late reply, but I was away from my computer for a couple of days.

It is my opinion that you have been unfair to me here. You quoted my part about girls gaining self-respect from learning that Jesus loves them, but left out the next part, which said this:

get out the message about Jesus, and how much He loves you, and most girls will have the self-respect to say no. And get out the message that Jesus' plan for our lives will bring us more joy than the world system, and men who receive that message will make the right choices as well.

Now, you are allowed to disagree, to say that men need something other than what I suggested. But don't chop off the "male" part of my 2-part paragraph, and then complain that I didn't address the male part of the equation.

Moreover, I didn't place the onus of the abortion problem on women. I will be the first to say that the majority of unwanted pregnancies--heck, the majority of instances of premarital sex--are initiated by men, and for selfish reasons. Go back and read what I said: women have been susceptible to men's selfish motives in large part because of a lack of self-respect. In many cases, if they knew who they were in Jesus' eyes, then they would be less likely to put themselves in a position where an unwanted pregnancy is a possibility.

And to everyone else: I am not willing to debate on whether or not men do most of the initiating of premarital physical relations.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Who says we can't think like they do? The only problem I have with understanding them is how they can justify murder for their mistake and/or anyones mistake. I can see why they MIGHT think it, but only to an extent. Why can't you refrain from being such a jerk? Is it that hard to just be nice, and debate without insults and rude remarks? If it is, stop reading this thread. I am so sick of you being so incredibly rude, just to get your point across. Everyone knows, you are against it, but you are angry with the idiots such as myself that can't fathom why a person would kill a precious little baby in their womb. I know, you think I am stupid, naive and whatever else, no you haven't SAID that but that is how I have taken it. Now, if you can't stop acting like a 2 year old, and stop bullying everyone that thinks controversially to you, then please do not read or post at this thread anymore. I did not make it so that I or anyone that agrees with me could be insulted. Debates and disagreements, etc are okay, but you are just being rude for no reason and i am sick of it. So please, just stop if you can't be nice, don't post at all.
*~Heather~*

read your post, then take your own advice. then make a bumper sticker out of it and go change the world

[ICarlson99]

get a life and reach the people. non-believers will act like non-believers. who are you to try and im pose your morality onto them??? and a bumper stickers go unnoticed. think about it...seriously...has a pro-choice bumpersticker made you think, "well maybe its ok under certain circumstances".....hell no, it hasnt!!! so if you honestly think that a "christian" (and i use that word lightly) bumper sticker about political issues will change minds then you are dillusional

put yourself in the shoes for a non-believer just once...please, i'm begging you. if you cant think like they think, you will be unable to meet them where they are and lose all credibility with them

Are you serious? Who are we to "impose our morality"??? How can you equivocate abortion with greed, lust, etc. Yes all are sins, but they don't all have the same implications. The ACTION of abortion has resulted in over 40,000,000 deaths in the last 30 years. You think that's just like every other sin?

If you won't stand up for "the least of these" what will you stand up for?

You're directing your anger at bumper stickers, which is only a trivial part of the equation. But it's easy to criticize them. If I put a bumper sticker up that convinces ONE woman to give up her child for adoption rather than abort it - is that a good thing? Or just silly?

It sounds like you've taken the "blame America first" approach to a new level - "blame the Church first". Sometimes bad things really are Satan's doing, and must be resisted and actively fought against. I believe abortion is one of those things.

[middletree]

It's been pretty well documented that I don't agree with Tulip on many things, and there's one topic in particular that we are both firmly entrenched on opposite sides. Having said that, I am going to jump in briefly between something that seems to be between you.

You are correct that bumper stickers and t-shirts might be used by God to save a person here or there from making a decision from an abortion. If you want to do that, and you have the Lord's leading (a huge point that hasn't been brought up in this thread yet), then go for it. I personally don't see how it will help, but I'd love it if you would prove me wrong.

Now, to take issue with this statement:

How can you equivocate abortion with greed, lust, etc. Yes all are sins, but they don't all have the same implications. The ACTION of abortion has resulted in over 40,000,000 deaths in the last 30 years. You think that's just like every other sin?

The truth is much more complicated than the simplistic way it's described above. In fact, it's too complicated to grasp in this thread. So I'll make one tiny point. Greed and lust, the sins you listed above, are as bad as abortion for many reasons. More to the point, you can't separate them from abortion because they are intertwined with abortion.

Lust in the hearts of men (or male teens) leads to abortions. 'Nuff said about that.

Greed keeps abortion legal. Planned Parenthood, which presents an image as a benevolent organization which is only concerned with helping young women, is an evil business which makes hundred of millions of dollars in profits by performing abortions. It is in their financial interest to keep abortion legal.

They do it not just by influencing Congress, but by pouring misinformation into the press, into movies, magazines, and into our culture in general. Their goal is to change the mindset of mainstream Americans to think it's about a woman's body, that it's about reproductive freedom; that it's about something other than murdering innocents. They have succeeded, in my opinion, in poisoning the minds of enough Americans to keep abortion legal for the foreseeable future. And they have done it purely for financial gain.

So one cannot truly say that abortion is better or worse than greed or lust. They are all connected, like Kool-Aid and water. Once you combine them, you can't separate them.

It sounds like you've taken the "blame America first" approach to a new level - "blame the Church first".

For the record, I love my country. I am an American, and I have had the opportunity to live in one other country (while I was in the Army). I love the USA. Period. I love the Church. It is the Body of Christ. The Church does great things. The Church exists to glorify God, to continue the work of Jesus on earth.

Having said that, it is impossible to ignore that the Church has failed in the area of sin, some of which is lust, greed, and abortion. And the USA has failed in that we have sent over much of our non-Christian values into the rest of the world, mainly through movies and the Internet.

Don't get me wrong. We have also spread great things throughout the world, especially sending the Gospel into places where there are people groups who haven't yet heard it. It's not impossible for the US to send both bad and good things into the world. In fact, it's very possible.

So I don't think Tulip was dissing the US or the Church; just expressing a disgust with the behavior of both. I love my son, but sometimes his behavior disappoints me. I will express it when that happens, but it doesn't mean I love him less.

So in closing, I'm just going to sum it all up by asking you to:

1. not assume that abortion is a separate sin; it's a symptom; a result of a combination of many other sins.

2. The US and the Church are not perfect, but in fact bear both good and bad fruit in the way we influence the world.

[ICarlson99]

So in closing, I'm just going to sum it all up by asking you to:

1. not assume that abortion is a separate sin; it's a symptom; a result of a combination of many other sins.
.

Greed and lust existed long before Roe v Wade. I'll ask you to go and look up the estimated number of abortions prior to 1973. There has not been a sudden spike in greed and lust. There has been a sudden spike in abortion. We can make greed and lust illegal and it won't make a difference, because those are internal sins of the heart. The external MANIFESTATIONS of those internal sins are things we can outlaw and they WILL have a tangible impact.

And, for the record, I have no bumper stickers - I'm not a "bumper sticker person", but I DO think they can make a difference. It made a difference on me. Not that it changed my position, per se, but gave me another angle to think about. That this issue is not just about whether or not the mother wants the child or can afford to raise it or is capable of raising it - that it's really about whether or not our society wants the children, the least of these.

US and the Church are not perfect, but in fact bear both good and bad fruit in the way we influence the world.

I agree. But there is no doubt that a great many people insist on blaming bad things on America and the Church first, regardless of the truth. It's difficult to distinguish between who has legitimate criticisms and who's just trying to be self-righteous but is really reflecting their own guilt over something (that's not a veiled jab at anyone here, I swear).

[middletree]

There has not been a sudden spike in greed and lust.


Since around 1995, there has been one in the area of lust, thanks to the Web. But that's another issue.

There has been a sudden spike in abortion. We can make greed and lust illegal and it won't make a difference, because those are internal sins of the heart. The external MANIFESTATIONS of those internal sins are things we can outlaw and they WILL have a tangible impact.


I agree that abortion has been much more prevalent since it became legal. And I am saying that the hearts needs to change before anyone accepts the idea of making abortion illegal again. Most politicians will not embrace the idea of overturning Roe V Wade as long as the public perceives it like they do. It's just hearts of the people which needs to change first. If bumper stickers will do that, great. I don't think they will, but I would love to be proven wrong.



It's difficult to distinguish between who has legitimate criticisms and who's just trying to be self-righteous but is really reflecting their own guilt over something.

OK, I'll give you that.

[ICarlson99]

OK, I'll give you that.

Ok, I'll take it :)

[Kyle's dad]

Oh, for the love of Pete, can we put this bumper-sticker/t-shirt thing to bed? Nobody on here has said that bumper-stickers or t-shirts are going to change the world, or put an end to abortion on demand. At, most it has been suggested that they might get people to think. Yes, some of them are cheesy, so what. If you don't see them as having any value, that's fine. I hardly think it's an issue that justifies some of the tension that has been created on this thread. And I freely confess that I have contributed to that tension as much as anyone.

[larryl]

If you don't see them as having any value, that's fine. I hardly think it's an issue that justifies some of the tension that has been created on this thread. And I freely confess that I have contributed to that tension as much as anyone.

i certainly didn't mean to cause any more tension. i was just stating my opinion.

i agree that they are not really worth arguing about. i probably should know better......

[middletree]

To Kyle's Dad:

I agree that the bumper sticker issue itself isn't worth arguing about, but I think that much of the disagreement came about regarding the issue of whether or not outlawing abortion is realistic, and also from my assertion that abortion isn't a problem so much as a symptom of another problem that needs to be addressed. Those topics are much more important than bumper stickers.

[ICarlson99]

How about this:

Some of us will focus on hearts, some of us will focus on laws and we'll all live happily ever after?

Hug? :D

[4goodness'sake]

How about this:

Some of us will focus on hearts, some of us will focus on laws and we'll all live happily ever after?

Hug? :D

Hey that would make a good t-shirt saying ;) j/k
Like someone else said, if a t-shirt makes a difference in one person's life, why not?? You can't hold deep theological discussions with everyone that passes by you in a matter of seconds. (especially about abortion)

I'm wearing a t-shirt today for "Wear a Christian T-shirt Day." I'm not wearing it out in public unless I know I can behave - lol :D BTW - this one might make a difference with educators, parents and students who are familiar with Dr. Seuss :p :p :p

[Lauroli]

Lynne:

Sorry for the late reply, but I was away from my computer for a couple of days.

It is my opinion that you have been unfair to me here. You quoted my part about girls gaining self-respect from learning that Jesus loves them, but left out the next part, which said this:



Now, you are allowed to disagree, to say that men need something other than what I suggested. But don't chop off the "male" part of my 2-part paragraph, and then complain that I didn't address the male part of the equation.

Moreover, I didn't place the onus of the abortion problem on women. I will be the first to say that the majority of unwanted pregnancies--heck, the majority of instances of premarital sex--are initiated by men, and for selfish reasons. Go back and read what I said: women have been susceptible to men's selfish motives in large part because of a lack of self-respect. In many cases, if they knew who they were in Jesus' eyes, then they would be less likely to put themselves in a position where an unwanted pregnancy is a possibility.

And to everyone else: I am not willing to debate on whether or not men do most of the initiating of premarital physical relations.

I am very apologetic! I wasn't paying attention, apparently! I didn't see the paragraph as it was written because I focused automatically on the part about women. Again, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I should know better than to question you, Middle. You have always been my guide.

Blessings...
Lynne :o :(

[Lauroli]

I'm wearing a t-shirt today for "Wear a Christian T-shirt Day." I'm not wearing it out in public unless I know I can behave - lol :D BTW - this one might make a difference with educators, parents and students who are familiar with Dr. Seuss :p :p :p


LOVE THE SHIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[middletree]

I should know better than to question you, Middle. You have always been my guide.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I'm wrong as often as I'm right.

thanks very much.
:D :p

[heartbreakpres]

read your post, then take your own advice. then make a bumper sticker out of it and go change the world


#1 I did read my post, and re-emphasize everything I said.
#2 I would love to, and we will see what God has planned out. It's nice to see a supposed fellow christian standing behind me. Thanks Tulip.

[heartbreakpres]

To Kyle's Dad:

I agree that the bumper sticker issue itself isn't worth arguing about, but I think that much of the disagreement came about regarding the issue of whether or not outlawing abortion is realistic, and also from my assertion that abortion isn't a problem so much as a symptom of another problem that needs to be addressed. Those topics are much more important than bumper stickers.


I know this was to Kyles dad but I am going to reply, I didn't make this thread to create tension, I should have forseen it, but didn't, I thought I would get what I asked for, obviously I didn't, I do apologize for starting something that created as much tension as it did, but honestly, no one said that the bumper stickers or t-shirts were an issue, until...I don't remember who ripped my face off telling me how I basically had no right to start a thread with my opinoins, or questions. I did not start it to start a debate war. I started to attempt to make a forward expressing my opinion, thats all I wanted to do at the moment. Now you tell me, along with all of you that have been on my butt how that is so terribly wrong. I am 17, I have plenty of time to do things about how I feel, and as Tulip tells me to do, perhaps I will change the world God willing. I don't see how this is such an issue for everyone to act this way, I feel like everyone just despises me for starting this and standing firm in my beliefs. They will not faulter, so why is everyone biting at everyone that agrees with me even half heartedly? I don't understand, we are all self professed christians, yet we rip each others heads off any chance we get, I being one of them. I want to apologize here and now for any freak outs I have had, it was not christian like and I apologize, yet I still can't fathom why on earth people began the abnoxious and mean behavior. I am sorry for the way I phrased my opinions, but I in no way take them back, nor would I if I could turn back the clock, I would re word and re punctuate some things but that is it. So I am sorry if I offended anyone, but I have to say, there were a few times I was offended, not excusing my actions, but come on guys.

[Howlin' Wolf]

#1 I did read my post, and re-emphasize everything I said.
#2 I would love to, and we will see what God has planned out. It's nice to see a supposed fellow christian standing behind me. Thanks Tulip.
"supposed fellow christian"

nice

[middletree]

I didn't make this thread to create tension


Yeah, well, lots of threads are like that. I don't mean to create tension with my replies. Most people don't. But when people on opposite sides of an issue stand firm in their beliefs, then tension happens.

Now, there are some people who do want to start stuff just for the sake of doing it. Those people are jerks, but thankfully, there aren't that many of them on this forum.

I do apologize for starting something that created as much tension as it did,

You don't need to apologize.



Now you tell me, along with all of you that have been on my butt how that is so terribly wrong.
I can't speak for everyone, but I sure didn't say that you were terribly wrong. I said that the focus should be on loving your friend, as she needs a friend right after she has gone and had an abortion. Christianity is about relationships, and you can shine a lot of Jesus' light into this girl's life. If you want to shine Jesus' light through other means to other people, go ahead. But do pray for God's leading He just might have other plans for you.


I feel like everyone just despises me for starting this and standing firm in my beliefs.

That's a lie that Satan is telling you. Don't believe it. Not one person here despises you. I disagree with your position on one thing. Tulip does, too. But I disagree with Tulip on Israel and on the idea that Christians are to be referred to as sinners. But I agree with him somewhat on this abortion thing. It has nothing to do with despising.

[ICarlson99]

Well said Middletree.

Heartbreakpres - don't apologize for what you believe, we all...uh...lack eloquence sometime and let our raw emotion take over, that's no great failing ;) I've done it before, I'll probably do it again.

And Middletree's right, there are underlying problems that need to be addressed. Outlawing abortion won't change them. But it will change the killing of many babies - which I think is equally a worthy cause. There are definitely segments of the pro-life movement that undercut their own credibility. Unfortunately, those are the ones that get broadcast from the mountaintops.

[Love Them Like Jesus]

LOVE THE SHIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D it YESLY Rox!!!! :D

[4goodness'sake]

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D it YESLY Rox!!!! :D

I wore another Christian t-shirt today because it's "Wear a Christian T-shirt Day" again today!!!!! Here it is:

[ICarlson99]

Hope you were on your best behavior! ;)

[4goodness'sake]

Hope you were on your best behavior! ;)

but of course - hee hee
Actually, I thought I would act up in public with it on so that people would think, "Oh Christians are just like everyone else, so I'm going to go to AtlantaFest this year." ;)

[ICarlson99]

but of course - hee hee
Actually, I thought I would act up in public with it on so that people would think, "Oh Christians are just like everyone else, so I'm going to go to AtlantaFest this year." ;)

:D

I need to find a babysitter so my wife and I can go on Friday night...

[4goodness'sake]

:D

I need to find a babysitter so my wife and I can go on Friday night...

I bet there are a lot of bored teens and college students off for the summer that would be glad to help!

[ICarlson99]

I bet there are a lot of bored teens and college students off for the summer that would be glad to help!

Any of 'em trustworthy and in the Duluth area? We've got a 1 and 3 yr old, so they'd have to know how to change diapers :D

[4goodness'sake]

Any of 'em trustworthy and in the Duluth area? We've got a 1 and 3 yr old, so they'd have to know how to change diapers :D

I'm going to pm you with a name and phone number of someone a friend uses in the Duluth area.

[heartbreakpres]

"supposed fellow christian"

nice

The way you have been acting and treating me and the people on my side, I couldn't help but wonder. Agape love is what is expected of us coming from God, there hasn't been much radiating from anyone here. Not challenging anyones faith, just saying that we all need to act more like Jesus including myself. Debating is one thing, biting is another, and that is what we have been doing. Sorry, yet again.

[spanishfly]

This did not go the direction I had planned, but I just wanted to direct random viewers towards the end posts becaue this has turned into a full fledged debate, and we can take more people for the ride. Just thought I would throw that out there! Thanks!
Hello,
I bet you are wondering what on earth I am doing starting an abrotion thread, but I am sooo against it, it's not even funny, and a friend of mine just had one and...I am doing my best not to strangle her. Anywayz, I am looking for any good quotes on abortion (against only) that I can put a forward together and spread it all over the place. I want people to understand how horrible it really is and put it in perspective for them. An example might be: "Isn't it a bit hypocritical to have been born and be pro abortion?" or "Aren't you glad your parents weren't pro choice?" or "Aren't you glad your parents wanted you?" Those are bumper stickers, but pics would be good, though I would probably cry at the sight of them. Anything would be appreciated. Thanks a lot! God Bless!
*~Heather~*
well Im pro-choice . People have the choice to do with their lives what ever they want . its their body it's their life. who are we to judge. couples have the choice to of how many children they want to have. also when they want to have it. We as humans like to judge other for what they do. Its their life. and yeah those babys have the chance to live but their mother have their chance to finish their studies and have a career and npt depend on their husband. moreover have the right to have their children whenever they want. If someone its going to do wrong they are going to do it no matter how much we lose are breath telling them to do as how they should do it.
we need to live our lives and let others live their's.
"if you don't like abortion, don't have one"

[middletree]

I agree that we are to let people have as many babies as they want. However, once you are pregnant, you have already created a baby. To have an abortion is to put a human being to death? Are you in favor of letting a mother hire a doctor to murder her kids?

I seriously disagree with your line about "Who are we to judge?" This is entirely unbiblical. We are absolutely called to judge actions to see if they line up with Scriptural truth or not.

[RT Mark]

I agree that we are to let people have as many babies as they want. However, once you are pregnant, you have already created a baby. To have an abortion is to put a human being to death? Are you in favor of letting a mother hire a doctor to murder her kids?

I seriously disagree with your line about "Who are we to judge?" This is entirely unbiblical. We are absolutely called to judge actions to see if they line up with Scriptural truth or not.

This is absolutely correct. We are to judge what is right and wrong according to scripture, which is different than judging a person`s salvation, which only God can judge.

Also, if a person is not a Christian then what we say may fall on deaf ears. However, if a person names the name of Christ and is a Christian, they are totally in error by believing they can do what they want with their own body. 1st Corinthians 6:19 tells us that we are not our own, we have no right to do with our body as we see fit. We are to glorify God with our bodies. Abortion is murder. I realize people like to debate about when a fetus actually becomes a human life. God says that he knew us before we were birthed in our mother`s womb. If we are to take God at his word, there really is no defense of abortion. It is what it is: Murder.

[RT Mark]

By the way, this does not mean there is no forgiveness for someone who has had an abortion, there certainly is, hands down. I don`t, and never will look down on someone who has had one. But once again, let`s not kid ourselves, let`s call it what it is.

[wiredchick09]

ok..

here is my take on the issue and this is my opinion so if you disagree please keep it to yourself.

I think the whole thing is sick and wrong. Yes, this is a free country, and people do have the choice to have an abortion, but the thing im saying is, what about the baby? Nobody ever asks the baby if it feels like dying. And to see such a loss of life because someone messed up.. it just tears at my heart and it makes me very disapointed. Just because that person may have messed up doesnt mean you have to throw an entire life away because of your mistake. And I am in no way implying that all people who wish to have an abortion have messed up and had a relationship that was not wanted. Sexual abuse is a horrible thing. And there is the only example of someone i can understand wanting to have an abortion. But people who mess up and have sex before they're married and go, oh poor me i want an abortion.. i have very little compassion for that.

again, this was my opinion ab\ndif you have anything negative to say about it, then PM me or something.
-wired-

[heartbreakpres]

well Im pro-choice . People have the choice to do with their lives what ever they want . its their body it's their life. who are we to judge. couples have the choice to of how many children they want to have. also when they want to have it. We as humans like to judge other for what they do. Its their life. and yeah those babys have the chance to live but their mother have their chance to finish their studies and have a career and npt depend on their husband. moreover have the right to have their children whenever they want. If someone its going to do wrong they are going to do it no matter how much we lose are breath telling them to do as how they should do it.
we need to live our lives and let others live their's.
"if you don't like abortion, don't have one"


Excuse me? Are you kidding? Have you read the Bible? Do you follow it? Yes, it is their body, but it is not their life. It would be more just if they were to commit suicide, it would be horrible but do you get my point? I can't believe that you are a self proclaimed Christian, yet you stray from and pick apart the Bible, the Bible is not just a set of guidelines you can choose whether or not to follow, you have been sucked into the brainwashed way of thinking, have you noticed that every "pro choice" person uses the same crap to defend their stance? Yes, anti choice people are cheesy in some bumper stickers but do you realize how inhuman and sick it is to murder an innocent baby? I don't care the circumstance, the baby is an innocent little LIFE (not fetus), and it has not been able to sin, or anything, yet people such as yourself support the murder of it, do you support cerial killers and the like as well? It's the same thing, except the victims have sinned and lived a life. The baby might have been concieved through a sinful act, but if you justify it's murder don't you think the murders should die as well? Take a look at your Bible and dust the cobwebs off of it. Good Lord.

[ICarlson99]

well Im pro-choice . People have the choice to do with their lives what ever they want . its their body it's their life. who are we to judge. couples have the choice to of how many children they want to have. also when they want to have it. We as humans like to judge other for what they do. Its their life. and yeah those babys have the chance to live but their mother have their chance to finish their studies and have a career and npt depend on their husband. moreover have the right to have their children whenever they want. If someone its going to do wrong they are going to do it no matter how much we lose are breath telling them to do as how they should do it.
we need to live our lives and let others live their's.
"if you don't like abortion, don't have one"

Do I have the choice to kill you? Will you draw the line there? Why? How about giving up the baby for adoption - how will that deny the mother the "chance to finish their studies and have a career"? (As if that's the greater good :rolleyes: )

[spanishfly]

Excuse me? Are you kidding? Have you read the Bible? Do you follow it? Yes, it is their body, but it is not their life. It would be more just if they were to commit suicide, it would be horrible but do you get my point? I can't believe that you are a self proclaimed Christian, yet you stray from and pick apart the Bible, the Bible is not just a set of guidelines you can choose whether or not to follow, you have been sucked into the brainwashed way of thinking, have you noticed that every "pro choice" person uses the same crap to defend their stance? Yes, anti choice people are cheesy in some bumper stickers but do you realize how inhuman and sick it is to murder an innocent baby? I don't care the circumstance, the baby is an innocent little LIFE (not fetus), and it has not been able to sin, or anything, yet people such as yourself support the murder of it, do you support cerial killers and the like as well? It's the same thing, except the victims have sinned and lived a life. The baby might have been concieved through a sinful act, but if you justify it's murder don't you think the murders should die as well? Take a look at your Bible and dust the cobwebs off of it. Good Lord.
well they going to take care of that life for the rest of their life so their choice to choose if thats what they want to at that point in their life.
i do think that its wrong. so i dont have an abortion and i dont think that ill ever wiill but i dont think it should be illegal. i think people have he right to do whats good and whats bad. I just want to make sure that if someone in my family decides to have one they'll do it in a place that safe.
some years ago my cousin had to have a abortion because she could have lose her life. she had complications with her first child. she had to had to have the abortion. she did. im happy that my cousin its still alive she has now her 13 year old child with excellent grades that just graduated from junior high school. she is a single mother and she is alive to take care of her child.

[ICarlson99]

I don't know of anyone that wouldn't allow abortion in the event of saving the mother's life. That's not the issue. Neither is who raises the baby (orphanages, adoption agencies, etc). The point is whether or not to allow the baby to live.

i think people have he right to do whats good and whats bad

Using this philosophy, why should ANY laws exist?

[spanishfly]

Do I have the choice to kill you? Will you draw the line there? Why? How about giving up the baby for adoption - how will that deny the mother the "chance to finish their studies and have a career"? (As if that's the greater good :rolleyes: )
I have my opinion and i have the right to disagree with you guys. i dont think abortion should be illegal. thats all. i dont judge people who have them either. i dont like them so i dont have them. thats all. "uuhh i cant believe that you agree with abortion" i dont what town you guys live but i dont necessarily agree. i know people who had them and i understand their reasons.i know that the bible disagree.however, people who have abortions are not christians and they dont think like us.
and yeah to answer your question i live around single mothers all around me. most of the women in my family are single mothers. i think that mother has the choice to choose how they gonna live their live. it s very hard to go to go to college and take care of their children. especiallly living in this city(N.Y.C.)where so many kids have died and parents have left them with a baby siiter. it very easy for you guys to go say all this things of the women who have abortion and not put themselves in their position.

[ICarlson99]

well they going to take care of that life for the rest of their life so their choice to choose if thats what they want to at that point in their life

Sorry, the CHOICE was made when they CHOSE to have sex. At some point "choices" end and responsibilities begin. And rape is another story altogether.

[spanishfly]

dont like dont have one and enjoy your life.

love you guys

[heartbreakpres]

well they going to take care of that life for the rest of their life so their choice to choose if thats what they want to at that point in their life.
i do think that its wrong. so i dont have an abortion and i dont think that ill ever wiill but i dont think it should be illegal. i think people have he right to do whats good and whats bad. I just want to make sure that if someone in my family decides to have one they'll do it in a place that safe.
some years ago my cousin had to have a abortion because she could have lose her life. she had complications with her first child. she had to had to have the abortion. she did. im happy that my cousin its still alive she has now her 13 year old child with excellent grades that just graduated from junior high school. she is a single mother and she is alive to take care of her child.


I don't know what to say to some of that. People do have a right to do what's bad and whats right, but nomatter the circumstance it is murder, and unless you are pro murder as well you are contradicting yourself and you are supporting something God frirmly states is wrong, so until you get your priorites straight I wouldn't proclaim being a christian then saying you are pro choice. It doesn't work that way, and you are making God look bad, people see someone that says I love Jesus, and then you go comepletely against His word to proclaim that people have the right to decide whether or not they want to raise the child they made. Didn't they make that decision when they had sex? I don't care if it was rape or not, it's called adoption. Ever think of that? murder is not the only alternative.

[ICarlson99]

it very easy for you guys to go say all this things of the women who have abortion and not put themselves in their position.

Sounds like you're judging us :rolleyes:

You don't know any more about "our" histories with abortion than "we" do about yours.

i have the right to disagree with you guys

And we have the right to disagree with you. So let's discuss.....

What, in your opinion, should be considered illegal?

[ICarlson99]

dont like dont have one and enjoy your life.

Can I just say "If you don't like stealing, don't steal - but don't make it illegal either because people have the right to do wrong things?" How about rape? If you don't like rape, don't rape someone - just don't make it illegal because people have the right to do wrong things? That's absurd.

[spanishfly]

I don't know what to say to some of that. People do have a right to do what's bad and whats right, but nomatter the circumstance it is murder, and unless you are pro murder as well you are contradicting yourself and you are supporting something God frirmly states is wrong, so until you get your priorites straight I wouldn't proclaim being a christian then saying you are pro choice. It doesn't work that way, and you are making God look bad, people see someone that says I love Jesus, and then you go comepletely against His word to proclaim that people have the right to decide whether or not they want to raise the child they made. Didn't they make that decision when they had sex? I don't care if it was rape or not, it's called adoption. Ever think of that? murder is not the only alternative.
Many christians donot believe in birth control methods
what will they do stop having sex. i dont think people should be having abortions. not contradicting my self. i just think that thats their choice not mines. i wouldnt have an abortion but if others do thats on them.
maybe you guys dont understand my point. God gives us free will and we choose what to do, we have concequences for our actions. and yeah abortion its a sin but so its drinking and smoking and its still legal and we dont go crazy with those people that do that.

[Trillamum]

Many christians donot believe in birth control methods
what will they do stop having sex. i dont think people should be having abortions. not contradicting my self. i just think that thats their choice not mines. i wouldnt have an abortion but if others do thats on them.
maybe you guys dont understand my point. God gives us free will and we choose what to do, we have concequences for our actions. and yeah abortion its a sin but so its drinking and smoking and its still legal and we dont go crazy with those people that do that.


The problem with this argument is that an abortion is not something which only affects them. With smoking and over-indulgent drinking, the primary damage is done to the person who chooses to participate in them. With an abortion, an innocent bystander is KILLED. I'm sorry, but we cannot condone murder of unborn children just because we don't want to push our views on others. How do you think the baby feels about having the mother's choice pushed on him? As for the first sentence of your post, most of the Christians who have issues with birth control, if not all, would also have much larger issues with abortion.
Yes, even if we make abortion illegal, people will still be able to choose to have them, just like now they can choose to commit murder, or steal, but at least then they would be subject to facing the legal consequences of their actions.
Please note that I also believe that there are exceptions. If it is a situation that puts the mother's health at serious risk, as in, could lead to her and the baby's death, then I think that she should have the choice to have an abortion, but, this would be only after several doctors had agreed that it was medically necessary, and the mother actually wanted to do it.

[ICarlson99]

Many christians donot believe in birth control methods
what will they do stop having sex. i dont think people should be having abortions. not contradicting my self. i just think that thats their choice not mines. i wouldnt have an abortion but if others do thats on them.
maybe you guys dont understand my point. God gives us free will and we choose what to do, we have concequences for our actions. and yeah abortion its a sin but so its drinking and smoking and its still legal and we dont go crazy with those people that do that.

Where does the bible say drinking is a sin? Drunkenness is a sin - and it's also against the law.

So what laws do you agree with? Any? Why?

[spanishfly]

If i was rape im supposed to keep this child. looking at the face of my rapist for the rest of my life. adaption.uum i dont know. i think thats very unfair for the woman who get rape.
but then again thats just me.

[ICarlson99]

Why are you only concerned about the "fairness" to the mother? What about the "fairness" to the child?

[middletree]

If i was rape im supposed to keep this child. looking at the face of my rapist for the rest of my life. adaption.uum i dont know. i think thats very unfair for the woman who get rape.
but then again thats just me.
Spanishfly, I have stayed out of this since my first reply to you, mainly because--no offense--your sentences are hard to read. I am not trying to be insulting, just saying.

But I had to reply to this because the rape thing always comes up in these discussions. Fact is, less than 2% of abortions in the US are resulting from reported rapes. I don't think it's right to abort a child who was conceived in a rape, but even putting that aside, that doesn't account for the 98% of abortions that aren't rape-related.

Bottom line is, you are using the same arguments that most pro-choicers use. Nothing wrong with that. If you could articulate it better, we might have a lively debate going. But the problem with pro-choice people is that they bring up the rape and "reproductive freedom" items to avoid the real point: is the aborted child a real human person, or isn't it? That's where the whole abortion issue rests.

Because if you agree that it is a person, then it is not OK to put an end to his/her life. If it is a person, then the mother's rights aren't the only person's rights being violated here. If it is a person, then it doesn't matter what your cousin did. If it is a person, it doesn't matter if the pregnancy occurred when the mother is still in high school and needs to finish an education.

Now, having said that, can you tell me if you consider an unborn fetus, say 12 weeks along, to be a person?

[Howlin' Wolf]

well Im pro-choice . People have the choice to do with their lives what ever they want . its their body it's their life. who are we to judge. couples have the choice to of how many children they want to have. also when they want to have it. We as humans like to judge other for what they do. Its their life. and yeah those babys have the chance to live but their mother have their chance to finish their studies and have a career and npt depend on their husband. moreover have the right to have their children whenever they want. If someone its going to do wrong they are going to do it no matter how much we lose are breath telling them to do as how they should do it.
we need to live our lives and let others live their's.
"if you don't like abortion, don't have one"
i agree with you. lost people will act like lost people. the gospel isnt about controlling people and forcing them to follow God's law. that is islam. not christianity
do i agree with our court system? absolutely not! i believe that abortion is murder. how can scott peterson be charged with double murder fetus' arent people?

that is the fundamental issue of abortion.
sure i hate it, but there is nothing i can do about it unless i run for office myself.

[spanishfly]

if i can remember well in the bible it says that we we should take care of our body because is the temple of the holy spirit. drinking is harmful to the body thats why chritians should nt drink but then again thats not the topic here.

[spanishfly]

my opion is only my opinion. im not here to input my opinion and you guys are not trying to do the same with me.
bye i love you guys

[spanishfly]

i agree with you. lost people will act like lost people. the gospel isnt about controlling people and forcing them to follow God's law. that is islam. not christianity
do i agree with our court system? absolutely not! i believe that abortion is murder. how can scott peterson be charged with double murder fetus' arent people?

that is the fundamental issue of abortion.
sure i hate it, but there is nothing i can do about it unless i run for office myself.
thanks you

[middletree]

my opion is only my opinion. im not here to input my opinion and you guys are not trying to do the same with me.


I don't think anyone's doing that to you. You presented an opinion, and many others are presenting opposite opinions. That's called a discussion. This is a discussion forum.

[Lauroli]

If i was rape im supposed to keep this child. looking at the face of my rapist for the rest of my life. adaption.uum i dont know. i think thats very unfair for the woman who get rape.
but then again thats just me.

Please go back and read my posts from here. I had two abortions. I was raped. I cannot back you on any of your statements. Rape is bad enough to live with for the rest of your life, but murdering the INNOCENT that came from that rape is worse. As Christians, we are to forgive our rapists as we forgive our own children or friends; therefore, a child conceived from a horrible act is still a child and deserves a life. Now you have heard from someone who has gone through the torture of it and KNOWS that abortion is nothing less than selfish murder. It's NOT a choice. It's murder plain and simple. There are no two ways about it. As for the life of the mother... if it's her time to go then it's her time to go. No abortion should be allowed at any time for any reason. We all will be judged by our actions. I now have to stand in front of my Lord and beg forgiveness for the TWO murders I committed. Spending an eternity in hell is so much worse than giving my life to save an unborn child who may grow to be something so much better than from the people of which it came. How many Einsteins have been murdered, or Stravinskis or future presidents or the person who would have cured cancer? I agree with Middle - get your Bible out, dust it off and study. I'm shocked by your apathy toward the unborn.

Prayers and blessings for you...
Lynne

[spanishfly]

why is everyone thinking that i dont read my bible. i do. i just dont think abortion shouldn't be illegal. it shouldnt i think you are great with making that choice but not everyone is you. i know of people who had obortion and i understand why they did it. i know i may sound offensive to people in here but i understand why. i know that is wrong and i dont think people should do it. but people are gonna do it anyways.
i know that Gods is not happy with people who have abortions. i just think that if my cousin, who recently had a baby, would of choose to have an abortion since she is a teenager, i would of prefer for her to do in a place where she had the right treatment.
that all im saying. you guys are always gonna disagree with me. and thats ok. im not going to agree with you. and thats ok too.
thats just how i think. like i said before thats just my opinion.
and yeah i was abuse too. and i think if i would of had a baby by him i probably would of not had made the same decision. i most likley would of had an abortion.

[spanishfly]

i don't post a lot but i lurk sometimes.

and this post has struck a nerve.

how many of you know this sin personally? how many of you actually have any clue what it is like to be faced with the temptation to have an abortion?

you all lust. every last one of you does.
you all lose your temper.

but im guessing this is a sin you know nothing about personally, but all jump very quickly to say how it is.

im going to preface my next statement by saying that i Love the Lord with all my heart and find my worth in the Cross of christ. my sins are washed clean by the blood of the lamb

i had an abortion when i was 17.

now...we can actually have a discussion.
thank you
thats all i've trying to say

[middletree]

Please go back and read my posts from here. I had two abortions.

Lynne:

Thanks for your boldness here, and saying what most of us cannot say.

[middletree]

it shouldnt i think you are great with making that choice but not everyone is you.

Ok, fine. Put aside the bible for a minute. You and I agree that it would be wrong for a person to, for example, go into a convenience store and kill the 55-year-old clerk, right? It is acceptable to make laws that say that that is an illegal act, correct?

Are we agreed on that much?

OK, then if it's wrong and illegal to kill a human being who's 55 years old, then is it wrong to kill someone who's 25 years old?

Yes or no?

Now, is it OK to kill someone who's 5 days old?

Yes or no?

You still with me?

How about a baby who's 5 seconds old?

OK, how about a baby about to be born?

Is that OK to do? Is it OK to kill a baby who's not quite born yet?

OK, how about a baby who is 20 weeks into the 40-week pregnancy?

How about 12 weeks?

Please answer my questions. I am truly not picking on you, but wanting to hear your answers. Not about your cousin, but about your answers to the above questions.

[heartbreakpres]

If i was rape im supposed to keep this child. looking at the face of my rapist for the rest of my life. adaption.uum i dont know. i think thats very unfair for the woman who get rape.
but then again thats just me.


So, do you think it is fair to the baby? Your opinions are very shallow and ignorant. Think about what you say, and what God says, and if you still believe you are right, there is seomthing wrong. Thank you Icarlson I agree with every pont you have made, as well as...sorry, can't think of your screename but the other person that has been going back and forth with Spanishfly. Spanishfly: adoption is the choice that as long as the mothers health is not at risk the correct option, if there was no other way for the baby to live without being raised by the parent, then I would agree with you, how would rape be any different? the mother wouldn't have to see the baby ever again, so how do you justify your comments? Like Icarlson said, there is a point where choices end and responsibility begin, do you think random people should be excempt (sp) from responsibility? Because that is what you are saying in between the lines. I understand you don't do it, I Know plenty of single mothers as well, God watches over all of single mothers as well as everyone in general, though they may struggle just like everyone else, what is your point again? They are people just as everyone else, and the babies that are murdered by those women that are as you say "free to make good and bad decisions" however, when it is not really only concerning them, how is it okay to decide whether a person lives or dies? Like I said earlier, they are murdering, and if you do not support every sort of murder you ARE contradicting yourself. Wake up and see that sometime k.

[heartbreakpres]

if i can remember well in the bible it says that we we should take care of our body because is the temple of the holy spirit. drinking is harmful to the body thats why chritians should nt drink but then again thats not the topic here.

Question, what did Jesus drink when He lived on earth? please enlighten me, because from the version I read, it was WINE! Yes our body is a temple of God, however ocassional drinking is okay, He doesn't want you to get drunk. I can't help but believe that you pick apart the Bible, and only remember things you want to believe, and leave everything else out. I am not saying you do, that is just what I get from your replies.

[heartbreakpres]

Please go back and read my posts from here. I had two abortions. I was raped. I cannot back you on any of your statements. Rape is bad enough to live with for the rest of your life, but murdering the INNOCENT that came from that rape is worse. As Christians, we are to forgive our rapists as we forgive our own children or friends; therefore, a child conceived from a horrible act is still a child and deserves a life. Now you have heard from someone who has gone through the torture of it and KNOWS that abortion is nothing less than selfish murder. It's NOT a choice. It's murder plain and simple. There are no two ways about it. As for the life of the mother... if it's her time to go then it's her time to go. No abortion should be allowed at any time for any reason. We all will be judged by our actions. I now have to stand in front of my Lord and beg forgiveness for the TWO murders I committed. Spending an eternity in hell is so much worse than giving my life to save an unborn child who may grow to be something so much better than from the people of which it came. How many Einsteins have been murdered, or Stravinskis or future presidents or the person who would have cured cancer? I agree with Middle - get your Bible out, dust it off and study. I'm shocked by your apathy toward the unborn.

Prayers and blessings for you...
Lynne


Good job Lynne, I am really proud of you for your ability to do that. Spanishfly and all other "pro choice" "christians" : nomatter what happened to the mother there is no reason to murder innocence and a gift from God, and I too am really apalled at how okay with abortion you and Tulip are, I have no idea what sex Spanishfly is, but I belive Tulip is a guy. So for one, how do you sympathize completely? You have no idea what it is like, how do you figure all of the comments you have made? Other than them just being your opinions, how can you justify them and still call yourself a christian when you are openly contradicting the Bible and it's teachings? How can you be so okay with the MURDER of an innocent child, nomatter the circumstance from which it was concieved. I understand that a lot of people that have them are not Christians , though SOME are, but how is supporting them in this horrible sinful act helping them come to Christ when you proclaim Christianity though you stand behind them when standing behind them requires you to contradict God and your supposed beliefs? Is that to trick them into coming to Christ? Because God does not agree with that at all either! That is mainly directed at to Tulip, and Jenniwren if she is still viewing this thread, but it is also to you Spanishfly. How is abortion as you say wrong, yet you support it and the people that have them at the same time? How?

[ICarlson99]

Good job Lynne, I am really proud of you for your ability to do that. Spanishfly and all other "pro choice" "christians" : nomatter what happened to the mother there is no reason to murder innocence and a gift from God, and I too am really apalled at how okay with abortion you and Tulip are, I have no idea what sex Spanishfly is, but I belive Tulip is a guy. So for one, how do you sympathize completely? You have no idea what it is like, how do you figure all of the comments you have made? Other than them just being your opinions, how can you justify them and still call yourself a christian when you are openly contradicting the Bible and it's teachings? How can you be so okay with the MURDER of an innocent child, nomatter the circumstance from which it was concieved. I understand that a lot of people that have them are not Christians , though SOME are, but how is supporting them in this horrible sinful act helping them come to Christ when you proclaim Christianity though you stand behind them when standing behind them requires you to contradict God and your supposed beliefs? Is that to trick them into coming to Christ? Because God does not agree with that at all either! That is mainly directed at to Tulip, and Jenniwren if she is still viewing this thread, but it is also to you Spanishfly. How is abortion as you say wrong, yet you support it and the people that have them at the same time? How?

Didn't you read what Tulip wrote? It's too hard to change, people are going to do it anyway, so don't bother with it. Don't you remember learning in Sunday School - "If it's too difficult to change something, don't try, no matter how awful you think it is or GOD SAYS IT IS - even if God's on your side, there are some things that are just not worth the effort. It's alright, as long as you FEEL good about it." ;)

Tulip, what's the point of being "against" something if you do nothing about it?

[ICarlson99]

but people are gonna do it anyways.

I'll ask you again, based on THIS criteria, why do you believe there should be ANYTHING illegal? DO you think anything should be illegal?

i know that Gods is not happy with people who have abortions

How do you think God feels about people who won't protect the unborn - the truly "least of these", the most vulnerable in our society - EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW GOD IS AGAINST THEM BEING KILLED?

[middletree]

Tulip, what's the point of being "against" something if you do nothing about it?

I didn't interpret Tulip's posts that way at all. I think he said to focus on the core issues. I said that same thing. I think abortion is wrong and should be illegal, but it isn't the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. The problem is a nation full of people who are rejecting Jesus. Many Christians treat their pro-life cause as the end-all be-all. They think that if we can solve this problem, we'll be fine as a nation. I happen to disagree with this.

I think it's a horrible thing that unborn babies are dying. I am appalled and upset that it happens. However, I wish we all were at least as upset that humans of all ages are dying without knowing Jesus, without hearing the Gospel.

[ICarlson99]

I didn't interpret Tulip's posts that way at all. I think he said to focus on the core issues. I said that same thing. I think abortion is wrong and should be illegal, but it isn't the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. The problem is a nation full of people who are rejecting Jesus. Many Christians treat their pro-life cause as the end-all be-all. They think that if we can solve this problem, we'll be fine as a nation. I happen to disagree with this.

I think it's a horrible thing that unborn babies are dying. I am appalled and upset that it happens. However, I wish we all were at least as upset that humans of all ages are dying without knowing Jesus, without hearing the Gospel.

I think we've had this discussion before :D

I still say you can change people's opinion on this through open debate AND share the Gospel all over the place.

[middletree]

I think we've had this discussion before :D

I still say you can change people's opinion on this through open debate AND share the Gospel all over the place.
I don't disagree. However, a large portion of American Christians put 100 times more effort into complaining about abortion than they do in spreading the Good News about Jesus. People are taking the first half of your sentence above, and walking in it, but not the 2nd half.

[heartbreakpres]

I don't disagree. However, a large portion of American Christians put 100 times more effort into complaining about abortion than they do in spreading the Good News about Jesus. People are taking the first half of your sentence above, and walking in it, but not the 2nd half.


That is not completely true, by being against abortion, people are showing a set of morals, and sometimes, when people "complain" about abortion, they use the Bible to back them up in your beliefs, please refrain from generalizing.

[heartbreakpres]

Didn't you read what Tulip wrote? It's too hard to change, people are going to do it anyway, so don't bother with it. Don't you remember learning in Sunday School - "If it's too difficult to change something, don't try, no matter how awful you think it is or GOD SAYS IT IS - even if God's on your side, there are some things that are just not worth the effort. It's alright, as long as you FEEL good about it." ;)

Tulip, what's the point of being "against" something if you do nothing about it?


However, isn't that giving up on them? God created us to spread his word, it doesn't matter how hard it is, it is our job. Tulip you have an extreme lack of faith and need to think about your relationship with God, it IS worth the effort, even if only one person, or one baby is saved, you know why? because that is our job, I don't know about you, but when I get to heaven, I want to hear "Well done good and Faithful servant" not just "you accepted Me and now you may enter." We are here for a reason, nomatter how futile the effort of our life is in YOUR opionion. Do you realize how lost you are yet?

By the way, I got the :wink: and all but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

[ICarlson99]

I don't disagree. However, a large portion of American Christians put 100 times more effort into complaining about abortion than they do in spreading the Good News about Jesus. People are taking the first half of your sentence above, and walking in it, but not the 2nd half.

Fair - but there are also people who do the opposite (the 2nd half and not the first), and you could probably take any issue and say that people devote a disproportionate amount of effort on that issue. Your point is valid though. I'd like to think that open dialogue with people like Spanishfly is part of that effort to change our culture, maybe not by changing the law tomorrow, but by changing people's opinions, and it's worth the fight, but it must be done in the context of the larger purpose (which I think is what you're saying).

[middletree]

I'd like to think that open dialogue with people like Spanishfly is part of that effort to change our culture, maybe not by changing the law tomorrow, but by changing people's opinions, and it's worth the fight,


I agree, and I engaged in some dialog with her myself. I hope she answers the list of questions I gave.

but it must be done in the context of the larger purpose (which I think is what you're saying).

Absolutely.

[ICarlson99]

However, isn't that giving up on them? God created us to spread his word, it doesn't matter how hard it is, it is our job. Tulip you have an extreme lack of faith and need to think about your relationship with God, it IS worth the effort, even if only one person, or one baby is saved, you know why? because that is our job, I don't know about you, but when I get to heaven, I want to hear "Well done good and Faithful servant" not just "you accepted Me and now you may enter." We are here for a reason, nomatter how futile the effort of our life is in YOUR opionion. Do you realize how lost you are yet?

By the way, I got the :wink: and all but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

And perhaps it's the EFFORT that is our calling, even if we can't change things substantially. Perhaps life is a test to see how hard we're willing to fight (in the figurative sense) for God's laws even if it's seemingly futile. Just a thought.

[middletree]

That is not completely true, by being against abortion, people are showing a set of morals, and sometimes, when people "complain" about abortion, they use the Bible to back them up in your beliefs, please refrain from generalizing.

I was generalizing based upon my observations. I've watched my fellow Christians for 30+ years, and generally, my description of how they handle the abortion issue is just as described. It is true that there are exceptions, but I am not addressing those people who are the exceptions.

And morals won't save anybody.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I didn't interpret Tulip's posts that way at all. I think he said to focus on the core issues. I said that same thing. I think abortion is wrong and should be illegal, but it isn't the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. The problem is a nation full of people who are rejecting Jesus. Many Christians treat their pro-life cause as the end-all be-all. They think that if we can solve this problem, we'll be fine as a nation. I happen to disagree with this.

I think it's a horrible thing that unborn babies are dying. I am appalled and upset that it happens. However, I wish we all were at least as upset that humans of all ages are dying without knowing Jesus, without hearing the Gospel.

i agree with this post. heartbreak and icarlson, reading comprehension and hukt on fonics are your friends. learn them. love them. apply them

I NEVER SAID I SUPPORTED ABORTION!!! NOT ONCE!!! SO EITHER LEARN HOW TO READ OR QUIT TRYING TO DISAGREE WITH ME FOR THE SAKE OF DISAGREEING BECAUSE I THINK YOURE BUMPER STICKERS AND FLIERS ARE DUMB!!

[Howlin' Wolf]

how can you justify them and still call yourself a christian when you are openly contradicting the Bible and it's teachings?
so are you not a sinner? have you never spat on god's grace? is your walk blameless? or do you measure your spirituality by how well you obey the laws of God that best suit you?

Tulip, what's the point of being "against" something if you do nothing about it?
just because i dont protest the government, put a cliche of God's word on my car, or wear a t-shirt doesnt mean i do nothing. we live in a secular country with secular laws. the bible means zero in the government, so spitting out a verse to a congressman holds no weight. and just because i dont get on a website and spout off about how wrong it is, doesnt mean i am doing nothing. as much time as you and heartbreak spend on here talking circles around each other and judging me and spanish fly, you have ZERO right to say anything to me about any ministry i may or may not be involved in. so when the either of you start hanging out at planned pregnancy centers or abortion clinics seeking to speak truth to a woman that feels she has no hope, then we can talk. otherwise, you guys are nothing more than loud mouthed christians that give christianity a bad name.

all talk. no substance

[ICarlson99]

Oh brother. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

I disagree with you because you're wrong - things can be changed. But that was a nice way of distorting what I said - the fact that you have to resort to arguing against bumper stickers and fliers speaks volume about your logical position.

And next time YOU'RE going to lecture someone about reading comprehension and "hukt on phonics", at least get YOUR grammer correct :rolleyes:

I'll ask again, but in a different way - if you think something is morally wrong, should you try to stop it from occurring?

[middletree]

at least get YOUR grammer correct :rolleyes:

Hee Hee. You spelled grammar wrong.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Oh brother. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

I disagree with you because you're wrong - things can be changed. But that was a nice way of distorting what I said - the fact that you have to resort to arguing against bumper stickers and fliers speaks volume about your logical position.

And next time YOU'RE going to lecture someone about reading comprehension and "hukt on phonics", at least get YOUR grammer correct :rolleyes:

I'll ask again, but in a different way - if you think something is morally wrong, should you try to stop it from occurring?


did jesus or paul ever stop the roman empire or for that matter the sanhedrin from allowing "immoral" acts?

i didnt think so

case closed

[ICarlson99]

Hee Hee. You spelled grammar wrong.

Irony can be so ironic :D

[ICarlson99]

just because i dont protest the government, put a cliche of God's word on my car, or wear a t-shirt doesnt mean i do nothing. we live in a secular country with secular laws. the bible means zero in the government, so spitting out a verse to a congressman holds no weight. and just because i dont get on a website and spout off about how wrong it is, doesnt mean i am doing nothing. as much time as you and heartbreak spend on here talking circles around each other and judging me and spanish fly, you have ZERO right to say anything to me about any ministry i may or may not be involved in. so when the either of you start hanging out at planned pregnancy centers or abortion clinics seeking to speak truth to a woman that feels she has no hope, then we can talk. otherwise, you guys are nothing more than loud mouthed christians that give christianity a bad name.

all talk. no substance

I didn't judge you, but you judge me. You know nothing about me and what I do on this issue (although I've told you in a previous discussion) or any other issue.

As for your ministry, since you brought it up, is your website part of your ministry? You know what I think of it because I mentioned it to you privately, maybe I'm wrong - perhaps someone else can help me out here....

blurty.com/users/hansel

Yes, this is a powerful witness indeed. I was particularly moved by how you described your GM as a "c--ksucker", wished you were a baby so you could cry and get girls to "stick their titties in your mouth", blamed Christian virgins for not having enough grace to overlook your sexual history and STD (yes, it's THEIR fault), crassly document your bowel movements, etc.

Near as I can tell you're a phony, and deep down you know it, so your goal seems to be to drag everyone else down with your false piety into thinking they're as big a hypocrite as you are. It's one thing to be honest about sinful struggles, it's another to brag about it and relish it. And you'll dismiss me by saying that you're the only one who "gets it", you're just "being real" and I'm just stuck in my little bubble of insisting you think like I do, etc. Well, at some point "being real" becomes "being worldly". And being "in the world" becomes being "of the world". But then maybe everyone else is wrong.

I see why you like Calvinism. You get to do whatever you want and still think you're saved because you've been 'elected'.

You're a good person because God made you in His image. You're imperfect therefore He died for you. And because He did, and because He showed us a better example of living (within God's rules and promoting God's rules), we must turn from our human ways of "being real", not embrace them. And that's true for everyone here, especially me.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I didn't judge you, but you judge me. You know nothing about me and what I do on this issue (although I've told you in a previous discussion) or any other issue.

As for your ministry, since you brought it up, is your website part of your ministry? You know what I think of it because I mentioned it to you privately, maybe I'm wrong - perhaps someone else can help me out here....

blurty.com/users/hansel

Yes, this is a powerful witness indeed. I was particularly moved by how you described your GM as a "c--ksucker", wished you were a baby so you could cry and get girls to "stick their titties in your mouth", blamed Christian virgins for not having enough grace to overlook your sexual history and STD (yes, it's THEIR fault), crassly document your bowel movements, etc.

Near as I can tell you're a phony, and deep down you know it, so your goal seems to be to drag everyone else down with your false piety into thinking they're as big a hypocrite as you are. It's one thing to be honest about sinful struggles, it's another to brag about it and relish it. And you'll dismiss me by saying that you're the only one who "gets it", you're just "being real" and I'm just stuck in my little bubble of insisting you think like I do, etc. Well, at some point "being real" becomes "being worldly". And being "in the world" becomes being "of the world". But then maybe everyone else is wrong.

I see why you like Calvinism. You get to do whatever you want and still think you're saved because you've been 'elected'.

You're a good person because God made you in His image. You're imperfect therefore He died for you. And because He did, and because He showed us a better example of living (within God's rules and promoting God's rules), we must turn from our human ways of "being real", not embrace them. And that's true for everyone here, especially me.

i think it will be funny when the mods delete your username for posting tasteless garbage on a christian website

[ICarlson99]

I would have picked "sad", "insightful" or another depressing adjective to describe the need to remove direct quotes from your website because they're indecent.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I would have picked "sad", "insightful" or another depressing adjective to describe the need to remove direct quotes from your website because they're indecent.
i'll not deal with you here. the mods would certainly delete it before you see it. but you will be dealt with. and it will not be pretty

[spanishfly]

wow you guys have history of fights. is like sadamn and bush.
i didn't know none of this stuff. whatever discussion you guys had in the past just relax guys don't take it so serious. always put love first.( i know im cheesy) fighting solves nothing. noone helps no one by fighting.

I know that by now none wants to hear anything that i have to say. but im just saying there are some serious comments there. remember we are still bothers and sisters. even if we dont like what our brother or our sister do or how they think.

love you guys
even though i may think different
love love love
Spanishfly

[Howlin' Wolf]

wow you guys have history of fights. is like sadamn and bush.
i didn't know none of this stuff. whatever discussion you guys had in the past just relax guys don't take it so serious. always put love first.( i know im cheesy) fighting solves nothing. noone helps no one by fighting.

I know that by now none wants to hear anything that i have to say. but im just saying there are some serious comments there. remember we are still bothers and sisters. even if we dont like what our brother or our sister do or how they think.

love you guys
even though i may think different
love love love
Spanishfly

the rebuttal found here...where the mods cant delete it

http://www.blurty.com/users/hansel

[spanishfly]

the rebuttal found here...where the mods cant delete it

http://www.blurty.com/users/hansel


well i wasnt able to open it. im sorry if i had got anyone upset here. im just post my opinion. but i hope no one stayed angry with the stuff that i post here. eventhough i think the way i think i'm still young and im still changing and i might not be as mature as i should be.(not trying to call no one old)
i really love you guys. and i dont like to see people angry. and talk with angry with others or with me.
ill try to keep certain things that may get anyone upset here for the future(you live and learn)

love you guys and gals

[middletree]

I know that by now none wants to hear anything that i have to say.

I am extremely puzzled by this statement. I have asked you several questions. That means that I am interested in what you have to say. But you have not answered any of my questions. I guess that's your choice if you want to answer or not. But if someone's asking you to state your stance on something, then you can't really say that nobody cares what you have to say.

[spanishfly]

Ok, fine. Put aside the bible for a minute. You and I agree that it would be wrong for a person to, for example, go into a convenience store and kill the 55-year-old clerk, right? It is acceptable to make laws that say that that is an illegal act, correct?

Are we agreed on that much?

OK, then if it's wrong and illegal to kill a human being who's 55 years old, then is it wrong to kill someone who's 25 years old?

Yes or no?

Now, is it OK to kill someone who's 5 days old?

Yes or no?

You still with me?

How about a baby who's 5 seconds old?

OK, how about a baby about to be born?

Is that OK to do? Is it OK to kill a baby who's not quite born yet?

OK, how about a baby who is 20 weeks into the 40-week pregnancy?

How about 12 weeks?

Please answer my questions. I am truly not picking on you, but wanting to hear your answers. Not about your cousin, but about your answers to the above questions.

i dont think that people understand me here. i think abortion is wrong. i dont think people should have them done. but if people are gonna do them anyways no matter how much people are here screaming for them not to have them.
matter if they make them illegal. thats all. i dont think that God is pleased with people who got abortion.

[spanishfly]

I am extremely puzzled by this statement. I have asked you several questions. That means that I am interested in what you have to say. But you have not answered any of my questions. I guess that's your choice if you want to answer or not. But if someone's asking you to state your stance on something, then you can't really say that nobody cares what you have to say.
sweety i didnt get your question. ill try to look for it and answer it. i've been trying to answer all of them. but everyone is just hitting me. not even the small portion of other people who agree with me.

[middletree]

sweety i didnt get your question. ill try to look for it and answer it. i've been trying to answer all of them. but everyone is just hitting me. not even the small portion of other people who agree with me.
Look in the post right above this one. You responded with a general statement. I am interested in your answers to each of the questions. I think there are, like, 5 questions there. Please humor me.

[middletree]

the rebuttal found here...where the mods cant delete it

http://www.blurty.com/users/hansel
I'm staying out of the main part of the discussion you are having with Icarlson, because that's between you and him. However, I'll just throw in a 2cents worth and sat that I don't agree with this statement:

" i dont have a cyber ministry. i think they are stupid."

There are several good ones out there. I have been blessed by a few, and others have also. I have one, in the form of www.middletree.net, and the emails I have gotten indicate that someone's getting blessed.

My definition, by the way, of cyber-ministry is one that minsters to anyone. I happen to be particularly interested in ones aimed at Christians, with the aim of building them up. Not so much the ones that evangelize to unbelievers.

Some others:
www.acts17-11.com
www.lifegivingwords.com

There's one called The Preacher, but I don't have the URL handy. I think you'd like that one.

[spanishfly]

i dont know why everyone is trying to change my opinion. its going to be the same untill ill change it or God changes it. none of you guys can do that. i never had an abortion. but i think of other situation and place my self in their position and wonder how would i had reacted if i was them.
i know if i had gotten pregnant by someone who rape me i probably would of had one. just for the reason how i felt and the things that i was feeling not to long ago. i had deal with my trauma of being molested and it was killing me.
thats just how i think. i respect everyone's opinion and if thats their position thats ok. i dont really care.
maybe i should of not post my opinion when the title said against only please. my mistake.

[Lauroli]

[url]www.middletree.net[/url

hmmmm blurty or middletree...

Hands up in praise - middle!

However, I say go to both and create your own opinion.

Blessings...
Lynne :D

[Lauroli]

i'll not deal with you here. the mods would certainly delete it before you see it. but you will be dealt with. and it will not be pretty

This is what I posted to blurty in response to Tulip's response to ICarlson here. Please note: I pasted this here to be fair.

"Well written, well thought out and rebutted well. Do I agree? Does it matter? Not really. You remind me of my son. He love's Jesus, but doesn't change. I have often thought that God puts people like you in the lives of us Hilary Fays in order to wake us up. So, now that I've been awakened, can I have my cup of coffee?

Blessings...
Lynne

PS - Saved was one of the best movies I've seen in a long time!"

I don't agree with Tulip's crass behavior and I don't agree with just about anything for which he stands; however, when he says something that I understand, whether I agree or not, I must be fair in my attitude or otherwise be a hypocrit. He's actually a fairly good writer. I do agree on one thing, Tulip - You said it wouldn't be pretty and pretty it is not, but it's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be.

Carry on people and blessings...
Lynne :D

[heartbreakpres]

did jesus or paul ever stop the roman empire or for that matter the sanhedrin from allowing "immoral" acts?

i didnt think so

case closed


Case re-opened, I seem to recall Him trashing a temple...as well as not responding to Herrod because he had no authority over Him, and Paul seemed to serve a lot of time in jail.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Case re-opened, I seem to recall Him trashing a temple...as well as not responding to Herrod because he had no authority over Him, and Paul seemed to serve a lot of time in jail.
jesus cleared the temple. that has nothing to do with politics. paul was in jail for preaching christ crucified

do you realize that in their time, unwanted babies were left on the side of the road for the wolves to eat???

[heartbreakpres]

i think it will be funny when the mods delete your username for posting tasteless garbage on a christian website


You consider the truth to be tasteless garbage? They won't delete him for telling you the truth and opne day you will see that, hopefully before the rapture. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. "

2 Timothy 4:2-5
"Preach the word, be prepared in season and out of season; rebuke, and encourage with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires they will gather around them a great number of teaches to say what thier itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangalist, discharge all of the duties of your ministries."

[Howlin' Wolf]

You consider the truth to be tasteless garbage? They won't delete him for telling you the truth and opne day you will see that, hopefully before the rapture. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. "

2 Timothy 4:2-5
"Preach the word, be prepared in season and out of season; rebuke, and encourage with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires they will gather around them a great number of teaches to say what thier itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangalist, discharge all of the duties of your ministries."


i consider resorting to ad hom attacks because you are incapable of debating somebody to be tasteless garbage. have i done it? yes, but never to the patronizing extent that icarlson did

and on that note, this conversation is over. i dont debate with teenagers. maybe i will change that stance before the rapture, though :rolleyes:

[heartbreakpres]

jesus cleared the temple. that has nothing to do with politics. paul was in jail for preaching christ crucified

do you realize that in their time, unwanted babies were left on the side of the road for the wolves to eat???


Yeah, about Paul preaching, though it did not turn very many heads, do you disagree with his preaching of it?
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built the high places Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal."
Those were also things that people did to children as well, do you agree with that? That was basically a form of abortion because they sacrificed newborns to Baal by burning them alive, and now a days they burn them to death with saline or rip them limb by limb. Gory I know, but this is to all you "pro choicers out there. Do you still agree with it? As you know, Jeremiah was "the weeping prophet" he was writing laments about what God put upon his heart, and being a Christian you should know and believe that the Bible is God's word, not challenging just stating. Do you really think that His word is useless in fighting for and preaching?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yeah, about Paul preaching, though it did not turn very many heads, do you disagree with his preaching of it?

is that a serious question? really, you need to go back and re-read what ive posted in this thread.

i think the stupidity of that question just offended me

[heartbreakpres]

i consider resorting to ad hom attacks because you are incapable of debating somebody to be tasteless garbage. have i done it? yes, but never to the patronizing extent that icarlson did

and on that note, this conversation is over. i dont debate with teenagers. maybe i will change that stance before the rapture, though :rolleyes:

Why? do you not think I am smart enough? I believe I am, you are definitely acting like a teenager with the "roll eyes" gesture and rude and abnoxious posts, without scripture backing you up, I don't think that you would have known I was a teen if I hadn't stated so. Are you afraid of a competitive debate or what? I am not trying to change you, I am trying to state my opinions as are you. So what's the problem? why does my age matter?

This is the Dad chiming in: You should check out Livingwaters.com. Find the link for Ray Comforts talk on False Conversions. It may be helpful for you in the long run.

[heartbreakpres]

is that a serious question? really, you need to go back and re-read what ive posted in this thread.

i think the stupidity of that question just offended me

K, for one, I guess you are too dense to understand that question, you state that we are stupid and that our effort will prove worthless, and i asked you if you felt the same about Paul, because the futility of his effort was just as great as ours is. (IN case you are unable to understand what should and should not "offend" you, this was supposed to, or at least the first line was.)

[Howlin' Wolf]

Why? do you not think I am smart enough? I believe I am, you are definitely acting like a teenager with the "roll eyes" gesture and rude and abnoxious posts, without scripture backing you up, I don't think that you would have known I was a teen if I hadn't stated so. Are you afraid of a competitive debate or what? I am not trying to change you, I am trying to state my opinions as are you. So what's the problem? why does my age matter?

This is the Dad chiming in: You should check out Livingwaters.com. Find the link for Ray Comforts talk on False Conversions. It may be helpful for you in the long run.

no, i dont think youre smart enough, as evidence by your claims that i am pro-abortion. no, i am not afraid of competitive debate. however, i dont think you know what debate is. ive read your posts. its just emotional immature rambling. you havent once looked at anything ive said with any objectivity. if you had, you would have seen my point. the same point that middletree has posted.

the whole false conversion thing...i'm assuming thats your way of judging my salvation because i dont agree with you. and thats why your age matters.

and my daddy said that its time for you to go to bed

[Howlin' Wolf]

K, for one, I guess you are too dense to understand that question, you state that we are stupid and that our effort will prove worthless, and i asked you if you felt the same about Paul, because the futility of his effort was just as great as ours is. (IN case you are unable to understand what should and should not "offend" you, this was supposed to, or at least the first line was.)

ad homs ad homs ad homs

[heartbreakpres]

no, i dont think youre smart enough, as evidence by your claims that i am pro-abortion. no, i am not afraid of competitive debate. however, i dont think you know what debate is. ive read your posts. its just emotional immature rambling. you havent once looked at anything ive said with any objectivity. if you had, you would have seen my point. the same point that middletree has posted.

the whole false conversion thing...i'm assuming thats your way of judging my salvation because i dont agree with you. and thats why your age matters.

my father was the one that wrote that for one, and he was right, I am not saying you are not a Christian, I simply asked you your stance, you are the one who is acting like a teen, you are rude abnoxious and a flat out jerk, if you have anything more to say to me pm me, otherwise leave this thread and stop writing, If my age offends you so much then get away from my thread. There is adolescence (sp) for you. Frankly, you have been acting more my age than I have. The way you handled things was how I question your faith, not your words or beliefs, I stated that before, maybe you are the one that should re read the posts. I don't agree with you either, why does that have ANYTHING to do with my age? I know what debate is, and this was one until you decided to be a complete jerk to people that opposed you. I wasn't/ am not being too nice at the moment either, however you pushed me there, refer to the beginning post, what did I want from this thread? Thank you and goodbye.


and my daddy said that its time for you to go to bed
And you call ME immature? what is that?

[heartbreakpres]

ad homs ad homs ad homs


Excuse me? Englsih please, I am not familiar with that.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Excuse me? Englsih please, I am not familiar with that.

ad hominem

google is your friend

[heartbreakpres]

no, i dont think youre smart enough, as evidence by your claims that i am pro-abortion. no, i am not afraid of competitive debate. however, i dont think you know what debate is. ive read your posts. its just emotional immature rambling. you havent once looked at anything ive said with any objectivity. if you had, you would have seen my point. the same point that middletree has posted.

the whole false conversion thing...i'm assuming thats your way of judging my salvation because i dont agree with you. and thats why your age matters.

and my daddy said that its time for you to go to bed


That was my dad that said that for one, my age really has nothing to do with this, because frankly you have been acting more my age than I have, it may have been "emotional rambling" to you, if that's what you call scripture and the opposing opionion, I didn't question your faith by your stance on things, I questioned it by your words and how you handled it. You were/are rude, uncouth and presumptious and that is why you are freaking out about everything else, perhaps you are the one that needs to re read posts, and re read the first post on this, what did I want from this thread? Thank you, if you have anymore rude or abnoxious things to say to me pm me, be "mature" and keep it out of my thread. Thanks and goodbye.

[heartbreakpres]

ad hominem

google is your friend


Thanks your a doll (evil chuckie doll) theres adolescence(sp) for ya! Are yoou happy, do you really want me to act my age? I think you are definitely doing enough of that for everyone.

[ICarlson99]

i consider resorting to ad hom attacks because you are incapable of debating somebody to be tasteless garbage. have i done it? yes, but never to the patronizing extent that icarlson did

I wasn't patronizing you, and what I said was not out of anger. I was not insulting you, nor persecuting you. I don't hate you, but I think you're confused. I'm sure you think the same (or less) of me, and that's fine. But here's why I had to shine light on your ministry, with the scriptures support:

2 Timothy 4:2
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

I was very patient, I discussed it with you privately first because it wasn't about me and it wasn't about embarrassing you - but you rebuffed me. In both instances I closed trying to encourage you.

The fact that you're upset/embarrassed/whatever about it makes clear that you know there's something wrong - otherwise you wouldn't care. I'm glad you care, it means there's hope. I care too, otherwise I would have ignored you. I'm sure you don't believe me, but we are called to rebuke each other - not because we're to show each other who's better than the other, but because we are all human, and we'll screw up - and when we do our brothers and sisters are to be there to tell us about it - and build us back up.

Colossians 3:8
8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

It's not about a cyber ministry, it's about the witness we all are when we call ourselves Christians. Your ministry (and mine and everyone else's) doesn't end when we walk in our front doors. Our ministry and our witness is everything we do at all times - and I'm no better than anyone else. But acknowledging failure and our sinful nature is different from embracing it.

Hebrews 10:26
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

This should be sobering thought for all of us, me first - but is the exact reason we need to rebuke, correct, and encourage each other.

I apologize if I offended you, but I don't apologize for what I did or said. I believe you needed to be rebuked (no, not because I'm better), your ministry needed to be corrected and you needed encouragement.

I'll again close by encouraging you, and if you never read this, so be it. But this is why we should stand and defend the unborn as well, and why we can't shrink back (and yes, Middletree is correct, this cannot be the only issue we are passionate about):

Hebrews 10:24-25
24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Tulip, you have a wonderful opportunity and heart for reaching people that may not otherwise be reached, it is clearly a gift you have - of compassion and grace. It will prosper when you clean it up.

Hebrews 10:36-39
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him." 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

And if I need to be rebuked, corrected, and encouraged - I welcome it. And everyone, myself included, should remember that those 3 things (including encouragement) go together.

[Howlin' Wolf]

this post is patronizing. your PM was patronizing. and we didnt discuss any of this privately. discussion would mean that i responded to your PM.

you are in no position to rebuke me and judge my salvation. youre a pharicee in my book. and this is the last thing i will ever say to you. so dont bother responding

[Pouye]

this post is patronizing. your PM was patronizing. and we didnt discuss any of this privately. discussion would mean that i responded to your PM.

you are in no position to rebuke me and judge my salvation. youre a pharicee in my book. and this is the last thing i will ever say to you. so dont bother responding

"Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get a smart retort. Anyone who rebukes the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother rebuking mockers; they will only hate you. But the wise, when rebuked, will love you all the more. Teach the wise, and they will be wiser. Teach the righteous, and they will learn more.
Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. Knowledge of the Holy One results in understanding.
Wisdom will multiply your days and add years to your life. If you become wise, you will be the one to benefit. If you scorn wisdom, you will be the one to suffer."
Proverbs 9:7-11

"Mockers don't love those who rebuke them, so they stay away from the wise."
Proverbs 15:12

"A single rebuke does more for a person of understanding than a hundred lashes on the back of a fool."
Proverbs 17:10

"An open rebuke is better than hidden love!"
Proverbs 27:5

"If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. Even if he wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and asks forgiveness, forgive him."
Luke 17:3

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

"Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get a smart retort. Anyone who rebukes the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother rebuking mockers; they will only hate you. But the wise, when rebuked, will love you all the more. Teach the wise, and they will be wiser. Teach the righteous, and they will learn more.
Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. Knowledge of the Holy One results in understanding.
Wisdom will multiply your days and add years to your life. If you become wise, you will be the one to benefit. If you scorn wisdom, you will be the one to suffer."
Proverbs 9:7-11

"Mockers don't love those who rebuke them, so they stay away from the wise."
Proverbs 15:12

"A single rebuke does more for a person of understanding than a hundred lashes on the back of a fool."
Proverbs 17:10

"An open rebuke is better than hidden love!"
Proverbs 27:5

"If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. Even if he wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and asks forgiveness, forgive him."
Luke 17:3

Rock

one, you are in no position to rebuke a total stranger. 2, icalrson didnt rebuke me. he tried to discredit the validity of my argument by posting things that he viewed as sin. to take it one step further, he said that i wasnt even a christian based on what he read. we have never chatted via PM, IM, on the phone or in person. its the highest form of hypocrisy to say that someone youve never met or chatted with that they arent a christian....and he said that not because he read something that concerns him on my blog. he said it because i have disagree with him. if i was a free-will baptist and a republican, he wouldnt have said a word. you know it, i know it, and he freaking knows it! and too attack calvinism in the way he did proves that he is completely ignorant about the doctrine and about me. ftr, i have always held the view of eternal security

[Pouye]

one, you are in no position to rebuke a total stranger. 2, icalrson didnt rebuke me. he tried to discredit the validity of my argument by posting things that he viewed as sin. to take it one step further, he said that i wasnt even a christian based on what he read. we have never chatted via PM, IM, on the phone or in person. its the highest form of hypocrisy to say that someone youve never met or chatted with that they arent a christian....and he said that not because he read something that concerns him on my blog. he said it because i have disagree with him. if i was a free-will baptist and a republican, he wouldnt have said a word. you know it, i know it, and he freaking knows it! and too attack calvinism in the way he did proves that he is completely ignorant about the doctrine and about me. ftr, i have always held the view of eternal security

I'm just trying to be honest with you, man... you need to learn to take a little criticism. I like you, even though at times you have blasted me pretty hard (hard enough for a mod to delete a thread). You are right, I don't know you personally (although that is changing bit by bit...) but I've met people on forums and developed great relationships with them. Some of them I do know very personally, even though I haven't met them physically (like highaim and Gandalf). Words are powerful, and people communicate through words, whether verbally/face to face or over an internet connection. It's ok to say what's on your mind, but remember that real people are sitting at the computer screen on the other end. Somehow you have been able to blur that out (it is easy to do... for when you can't see someone's face they do seem far away or different somehow).

I really enjoy your honesty. I agree with you that too many people (especially Christians) hide behind a mask and this just turns "real" people away from Christianity. I hate masks. I hate fakey and cheezy. Maybe that is why Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors... at least they would be honest with Him about how they were doing. Maybe that is why Jesus couldn't stomach the Pharisees -- because self-righteousness stinks.

I'll say this as brother, and I don't really expect much to come of it, but I think you could learn to take a bit more criticism, that's all. I've had to eat my own foot here before. I've said things here that have hurt people and after thinking about it, I've just simply had to swallow my pride and say I'm sorry. I would have been easier for me to blast off and justify myself, blame, criticise in return, etc. But you know what? I ended up receiving grace.

One person I really blasted once here was MadCatholicGomer. I posted some outright trash about the Catholic church and I was so sure I was right that I harped on that guy until he was probably losing sleep. But you know what? I was wrong. I was just plain wrong, and I didn't want to admit it. Because MCG is a great guy, he loved me anyways. Because of him, I now have a new perspective of the Catholic church that I never had before.

See you on the boards,

Rock

[aring kongsong]

hey,

am glad u r so concern with this issues.....this is bcoming a daily practice all over...and its heartbreaking.....

i don't understand how ppl can be so inhuman....y did they concieved in the first place if they are going to abort it????

No man has the power to create life. So no one has the right to destroy it either.

Don't they ever lived with the guilt of wat they did???

[spanishfly]

ay ay ay

[Lauroli]

hey,

am glad u r so concern with this issues.....this is bcoming a daily practice all over...and its heartbreaking.....

i don't understand how ppl can be so inhuman....y did they concieved in the first place if they are going to abort it????

No man has the power to create life. So no one has the right to destroy it either.

Don't they ever lived with the guilt of wat they did???

Before you comment on posts, it would be a good idea for you to read the entire thread. Yes, those that have had abortions do live with the guilt. Some don't. The people who give their hearts and lives over to Christ most certainly feel guilty. Most abortions are a result of young adults (teenagers) having unprotected sex outside of marriage. This is why abstinence is most important in young lives.

Go back and read everything in this thread. I'm certain it will help you understand better what some feel.

Blessings...
Lynne

[Lauroli]

I'm just trying to be honest with you, man... you need to learn to take a little criticism. I like you, even though at times you have blasted me pretty hard (hard enough for a mod to delete a thread). You are right, I don't know you personally (although that is changing bit by bit...) but I've met people on forums and developed great relationships with them. Some of them I do know very personally, even though I haven't met them physically (like highaim and Gandalf). Words are powerful, and people communicate through words, whether verbally/face to face or over an internet connection. It's ok to say what's on your mind, but remember that real people are sitting at the computer screen on the other end. Somehow you have been able to blur that out (it is easy to do... for when you can't see someone's face they do seem far away or different somehow).

I really enjoy your honesty. I agree with you that too many people (especially Christians) hide behind a mask and this just turns "real" people away from Christianity. I hate masks. I hate fakey and cheezy. Maybe that is why Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors... at least they would be honest with Him about how they were doing. Maybe that is why Jesus couldn't stomach the Pharisees -- because self-righteousness stinks.

I'll say this as brother, and I don't really expect much to come of it, but I think you could learn to take a bit more criticism, that's all. I've had to eat my own foot here before. I've said things here that have hurt people and after thinking about it, I've just simply had to swallow my pride and say I'm sorry. I would have been easier for me to blast off and justify myself, blame, criticise in return, etc. But you know what? I ended up receiving grace.

One person I really blasted once here was MadCatholicGomer. I posted some outright trash about the Catholic church and I was so sure I was right that I harped on that guy until he was probably losing sleep. But you know what? I was wrong. I was just plain wrong, and I didn't want to admit it. Because MCG is a great guy, he loved me anyways. Because of him, I now have a new perspective of the Catholic church that I never had before.

See you on the boards,

Rock

Rock, you never cease to amaze me, bro! God love ya! :D

[aring kongsong]

Before you comment on posts, it would be a good idea for you to read the entire thread. Yes, those that have had abortions do live with the guilt. Some don't. The people who give their hearts and lives over to Christ most certainly feel guilty. Most abortions are a result of young adults (teenagers) having unprotected sex outside of marriage. This is why abstinence is most important in young lives.

Go back and read everything in this thread. I'm certain it will help you understand better what some feel.

Blessings...
Lynne

hey there,

i was just voicing my concern and opinion...i agree most of the abortions are the result of unprotected sex...by unmarried ppl or outside of the marriage....

But we can't ignore the fact that there are too many of them more so among us so called christians.

[colinthebassist]

so i was browsing around today and found this thread, so here's my take...

i agree that abortion is wrong, and that people who screw around should be forced to deal with their wrong dueings. but what if some girl gets raped and ends up getting pregnant? should she be allowed to get an abortion? thats my question...

[Kyle's dad]

so i was browsing around today and found this thread, so here's my take...

i agree that abortion is wrong, and that people who screw around should be forced to deal with their wrong dueings. but what if some girl gets raped and ends up getting pregnant? should she be allowed to get an abortion? thats my question...


Personally,as children of God, I think that we need to stop worrying about hypothetical situations. Should a woman who gets impregnated from rape be allowed to have an abortion? It doesn't really matter what I think, because the reality is that she can. So, with that in mind, how are we, the church called to respond to a situation like this? What if a woman in your community became impregnated from rape and she was considering an abortion? How should the church respond to something like that? I would think that we should first seek to embrace this woman and offer her the love and support that she so desparately would be in need of. We should do this no matter what decision she makes. Part of that love and support can be to make sure she is aware of all of her options such as adoption etc. We can make sure she has an opportunity to speak to some kind of counselor or something who can educate her on the emotional struggles that come with abortion and/or adoption. We can provide her with any sort of finacial and material assistance to meet her needs. I could go on and on. Of course none of us will want her to choose the abortion, but if she did, then we should of course still continue to love, support, and embrace her. We need to move beyond pro-choice and pro-life, we need to stop thinking of it as merely a political issue and start thinking about how we as the church are called to minister to all people affected by abortion.

[Lauroli]

so i was browsing around today and found this thread, so here's my take...

i agree that abortion is wrong, and that people who screw around should be forced to deal with their wrong dueings. but what if some girl gets raped and ends up getting pregnant? should she be allowed to get an abortion? thats my question...

As I stated before to another poster, go back and read the entire thread. I have answered your question in depth as a matter of fact. If you can't read the entire thread, pick through and read a few of my responses. It will shed a lot of light on rape and abortion.

Blessings...
Lynne :)

[Lauroli]

Personally,as children of God, I think that we need to stop worrying about hypothetical situations. Should a woman who gets impregnated from rape be allowed to have an abortion? It doesn't really matter what I think, because the reality is that she can. So, with that in mind, how are we, the church called to respond to a situation like this? What if a woman in your community became impregnated from rape and she was considering an abortion? How should the church respond to something like that? I would think that we should first seek to embrace this woman and offer her the love and support that she so desparately would be in need of. We should do this no matter what decision she makes. Part of that love and support can be to make sure she is aware of all of her options such as adoption etc. We can make sure she has an opportunity to speak to some kind of counselor or something who can educate her on the emotional struggles that come with abortion and/or adoption. We can provide her with any sort of finacial and material assistance to meet her needs. I could go on and on. Of course none of us will want her to choose the abortion, but if she did, then we should of course still continue to love, support, and embrace her. We need to move beyond pro-choice and pro-life, we need to stop thinking of it as merely a political issue and start thinking about how we as the church are called to minister to all people affected by abortion.

...and if I had you or someone like you in my life when I was raped and with child, I'll bet I would have made the correct decision. God bless you. Your answer is the best one.

Blessings...
Lynne :)

[heartbreakpres]

so i was browsing around today and found this thread, so here's my take...

i agree that abortion is wrong, and that people who screw around should be forced to deal with their wrong dueings. but what if some girl gets raped and ends up getting pregnant? should she be allowed to get an abortion? thats my question...


If you have done as Lynne instructed you will know my take on this, even so, I will state it again, with a question. Though rape is a sick and ugly thing, do you really believe that though the woman was abused in one of the most sickening ways possible that she should have the right to murder an innocent baby? Yes, it came out of a union that has more than scarred her, why can't the precious little thing up for adoption? She will never have to see the baby again, so why should it die just because of the wrong doings of it's parents? A baby is still a responsibility God given, whether you WANT it or not, the right thing to do is to let it live, whether it is with you or not. Why kill it? Brutally too.

[ICarlson99]

so i was browsing around today and found this thread, so here's my take...

i agree that abortion is wrong, and that people who screw around should be forced to deal with their wrong dueings. but what if some girl gets raped and ends up getting pregnant? should she be allowed to get an abortion? thats my question...

From a "legal" perspective, this one is almost impossible. Does there have to be a conviction to make it "okay"? If so, how do you then give the accused rapist a fair trial - does it have to be completed in the first trimester? No appeal? I don't think there's a clean legal answer.

My best guess from a "moral" perspective is that if you believe it's a life upon conception, it doesn't matter how the conception occurred.

Kyle's Dad - I agree with you as to what the church has to do - that was a great post, but we must also be prepared to affect laws and speak with clarity when given the opportunity. We can't be effective if we just say "the Bible says so" (my point simply being that discussions like these that deal with hypotheticals can be used to a greater good).

[ICarlson99]

Spanishfly:

Should a pregnant woman be allowed to smoke, or should that be illegal?

[Pouye]

Spanishfly:

Should a pregnant woman be allowed to smoke, or should that be illegal?

Sorry, I'm not spanishfly... but I thought this was an interesting question.

I know someone personally who took illegal drugs while pregnant. The baby was born with multiple birth defects and died shortly after birth. The defects were textbook defects resulting from the type of drugs she was taking.

Of course, everyone in the family surrounded this girl with love and it was a very tough thing for her to go through (she wasn't married). As horrible as this might sound, I just couldn't help but feeling that it was her fault (even though I have forgiven her). She kept asking why God would do this to her at the funeral... why God would take her little boy from her. I couldn't believe she was blaming God, but yet I felt compassion for her and I really wanted her to know that God loved her in spite of what happened.

We know that when a pregnant woman is smoking tobacco she is raising the risks toward her unborn baby. This is a medical fact, and it is printed on most cigarette cartons/packaging. Drinking alcohol also poses risks to unborn babies. Surprisingly, obesity also poses some major risks to the unborn, as well Obesity and Pregnancy Risks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3905947.stm).

So what do we do? Do we make it illegal to be fat *and* pregnant? Do we make it illegal for women to drink alcohol while pregnant? What about taking over-the-counter drugs that have known risks to the unborn? Illegal to smoke?

To answer this question, we need to take a closer look at the impact of alcohol and cigarette smoking on unborn children. Both habits can cause horrifying birth defects and impair the unborn child's long-term health. It has long been argued that expectant mothers who engage in drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes are, in effect, abusing their unborn children by exposing them to these toxic chemicals at precisely the time when such chemicals can have devastating effects. So what should be done?

Are pregnant women who drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes just acting irresponsibly, or are they are guilty of crimes by consciously and willingly endangering the health of their children? In doing so, do they forfeit their right to have children in the first place? Because, after all, if a woman can't stop smoking and drinking during pregnancy (isn't willing to make this small sacrifice in comparison to the value of the baby in her womb), is she responsible enough to bring a human being into this world -- a human being that will be crippled from the start?

To be honest, I have mixed feeling about this.

Rock

[ICarlson99]

It's a fascinating question to pose to pro-choice people. It actually occurred to me while watching a Seinfeld episode :)

I absolutely think it should be illegal because it's directly harming another human being without their consent. Obesity's a much tougher question (I think) - but you raise a good point.

As for whether or not they forfeit their right to having a child because of their irresponsibility, I think there are 2 separate issues - bringing the baby to term versus raising it. The state may very well say they are guilty of child endangerment, and rightly so, therefore they lose guardianship.

Trying to split hairs on this issue puts one in the dangerous territory of saying that certain qualities of life are not worth living. I'll never forget an HBO Sports special on a high school wrestler who was born without arms or legs (I think he had partial arms, but not to the elbows or knees) - he went on to win the state wrestling championship and was quite an inspirational person to hear talk - I always remember him when people talk about thresholds for an acceptable "quality of life".

That's why, to me, the only logically consistent position is that the baby is worthy of protection at the moment of conception and the mother (or anyone else) doesn't have any right to abuse or kill it.

[Lauroli]

It's a fascinating question to pose to pro-choice people. It actually occurred to me while watching a Seinfeld episode :)

I absolutely think it should be illegal because it's directly harming another human being without their consent. Obesity's a much tougher question (I think) - but you raise a good point.

As for whether or not they forfeit their right to having a child because of their irresponsibility, I think there are 2 separate issues - bringing the baby to term versus raising it. The state may very well say they are guilty of child endangerment, and rightly so, therefore they lose guardianship.

Trying to split hairs on this issue puts one in the dangerous territory of saying that certain qualities of life are not worth living. I'll never forget an HBO Sports special on a high school wrestler who was born without arms or legs (I think he had partial arms, but not to the elbows or knees) - he went on to win the state wrestling championship and was quite an inspirational person to hear talk - I always remember him when people talk about thresholds for an acceptable "quality of life".

That's why, to me, the only logically consistent position is that the baby is worthy of protection at the moment of conception and the mother (or anyone else) doesn't have any right to abuse or kill it.

Amen and amen!

[ICarlson99]

This is why abortion is still worth talking about, regardless of changing any laws or not....

http://www.nationalreview.com/lopez/lopez060303.asp

"Here's the story, as Santorum tells it; he was fortunate enough to find out how he won during what would have otherwise been considered a legislative defeat:

In 1998, I was on the floor of the United States Senate debating the override of the president's veto of the partial-birth-abortion bill. The next morning was to be the vote. We did not have the votes to override the president's veto. The debate had ended that night, it was eight o'clock. The Senate was wrapping up, but there was something inside me that felt that I had to say more, even though there was no one left in the chamber besides the presiding officers. I went back in the cloakroom and called my wife. She picked up the phone and we have six little children and they are all seemingly at once crying in the background, and I said, "Karen, the vote's tomorrow. We are not going to win and everybody's gone. But something tells me I need to say more." And through the din of the children crying, she said, "well, of course, if that's what you need to do, do it."

So I went to the presiding officer and said, "I'll only be a few minutes, I don't want to keep you late." Over an hour and a half later, I finished my talk.

….And we finished up the Senate and closed it down, and the next day the vote came, [and] not one vote changed. But five days later, I got an e-mail from a young man at Michigan State University. And this is what the e-mail said: "Senator, on Thursday night I was watching television with my girlfriend. We were flipping through the channels and we saw you standing there on the floor of the United States Senate with a picture of a baby next to you. And so we listened for a while and the more we listened the more we got interested in what you were saying. After a while I looked down at my girlfriend, and she had tears running down her face. And I asked her what was wrong, and she looked up at me and said, 'I'm pregnant, and tomorrow I was going to have an abortion, and I wasn't going to tell you, but I'm not going to have an abortion now.' "

In April of that year, a little girl was born and given up for adoption. She is four years old today. Now according to the world, when I spoke on the floor of the Senate that night, I had failed. I did not succeed. But God gave me a gift that many of you as you stand and fight the causes that you believe in may never get, He gave me the gift of knowing that faithfulness to what you believe in can lead to wonderful acts and wonderful miracles.

The Lord works in mysterious ways — even through C-SPAN."

Don't give up, you never know who's listening....

[kiwisongbird]

Hey, I've read some of these postings and just want to share something that happened to me when I was fifteen...

I had been dating a guy for a few months and we were having pretty regular sex - without any (or much) protection.

Anyway, I thought I was pregnant and was freaking out really badly - didn't tell him, cos he probably wouldn't have really cared, so was thinking about having an abortion. This was in the 1970s in NZ, so that would have been a pretty difficult thing to do, I think we either had to have back street abortions or go to Australia for them, or maybe a couple of doctors in our city would have done them, but not clinics like in NZ now.

(Oops, background - I was in a Christian family, but not following the Lord at the time...)

I had a dream, I dreamt that I went to the clinic and had an abortion, (in those days we had no idea what that entailed) and the doctor gave me the baby in a bag and told me to get rid of it, I walked to the ocean and emptied the bag over the side into the water, the tiny 'blob' twisted and turned and grew into a toddler before my very eyes and called out to me... then I woke up....

fully convinced that if I was pregnant then the only choice I had was to tell my parents and carry on with whatever might happen...

that was really scarey cos in those days girls were chucked out of churches and hated and put down and all sorts of stuff....

Anyway, praise God, I was not pregnant but sadly then went on the pill and continued my life of sin.

I think the main thing here is to not be judgemental - to see abortion as sin - and sin is sin whatever it is - women who have abortions often have to live with horrible guilt and need us Christians to love them not judge them - and to know that there but for the grace of God are we!!

AND - sorry to those who think these are stupid ;) - but here is another bumper sticker.....

Equal Rights for Unborn Women!

Hey love you all,
Sharon LJ :)

[Britt0814]

we have had MANY conversations about this in school..i've just about memorized the lecture the teacher gave us debating on whether or abortion is good.. :rolleyes: And after all of those long lectures i seriously took into consideration what he said..and i am STILL against it..i would never want to let somebody kill the baby that was inside of me..just imagine if YOU were the baby..sheesh..its awful!!!

[ICarlson99]

Hey, I've read some of these postings and just want to share something that happened to me when I was fifteen...

I had been dating a guy for a few months and we were having pretty regular sex - without any (or much) protection.

Anyway, I thought I was pregnant and was freaking out really badly - didn't tell him, cos he probably wouldn't have really cared, so was thinking about having an abortion. This was in the 1970s in NZ, so that would have been a pretty difficult thing to do, I think we either had to have back street abortions or go to Australia for them, or maybe a couple of doctors in our city would have done them, but not clinics like in NZ now.

(Oops, background - I was in a Christian family, but not following the Lord at the time...)

I had a dream, I dreamt that I went to the clinic and had an abortion, (in those days we had no idea what that entailed) and the doctor gave me the baby in a bag and told me to get rid of it, I walked to the ocean and emptied the bag over the side into the water, the tiny 'blob' twisted and turned and grew into a toddler before my very eyes and called out to me... then I woke up....

fully convinced that if I was pregnant then the only choice I had was to tell my parents and carry on with whatever might happen...

that was really scarey cos in those days girls were chucked out of churches and hated and put down and all sorts of stuff....

Anyway, praise God, I was not pregnant but sadly then went on the pill and continued my life of sin.

I think the main thing here is to not be judgemental - to see abortion as sin - and sin is sin whatever it is - women who have abortions often have to live with horrible guilt and need us Christians to love them not judge them - and to know that there but for the grace of God are we!!

AND - sorry to those who think these are stupid ;) - but here is another bumper sticker.....

Equal Rights for Unborn Women!

Hey love you all,
Sharon LJ :)

Great story, great bumper sticker!

[heartbreakpres]

Thank you for sharing that story, and loved the bumper sticker.

[Howlin' Wolf]

i saw a pro-choice bumper sticker today. it really made me think about theings. it convinced me to become pro-choice.

[heartbreakpres]

i saw a pro-choice bumper sticker today. it really made me think about theings. it convinced me to become pro-choice.
On this subject, you make me more and more sick every day.

[4goodness'sake]

i saw a pro-choice bumper sticker today. it really made me think about theings. it convinced me to become pro-choice.

be brave - tell us what it said

[Lauroli]

be brave - tell us what it said

I doubt seriously that Hansel saw anything. I believe what he is pointing out, in his "special" way; bumper stickers won't make anyone think about not having an abortion. I disagree with him, but everyone already knows my side of things.

Blessings...
Lynne :D

[4goodness'sake]

I doubt seriously that Hansel saw anything. I believe what he is pointing out, in his "special" way; bumper stickers won't make anyone think about not having an abortion. I disagree with him, but everyone already knows my side of things.

Blessings...
Lynne :D

I was hoping he'd at least make one up! ;)

[Howlin' Wolf]

I was hoping he'd at least make one up! ;)
it said "sinners will act like sinners! so lets kill some babies"

[4goodness'sake]

it said "sinners will act like sinners! so lets kill some babies"

You're sickly funny! :p

[Lauroli]

it said "sinners will act like sinners! so lets kill some babies"

Powerful - It goes right along with the "I had an abortion" T-Shirt. ;)

[heartbreakpres]

Wow.

[ICarlson99]

Powerful - It goes right along with the "I had an abortion" T-Shirt. ;)

A better one would have been "my mom had an abortion", oh wait..... :D

That was inspired by my favorite part of last summer's march on D.C. for Women's Rights or whatever they called the abortion rally - Maxine Waters (Representative from California) said "I'm here because my mother didn't have the right to an abortion". Powerful :rolleyes:

[ibanez_player]

That was inspired by my favorite part of last summer's march on D.C. for Women's Rights or whatever they called the abortion rally - Maxine Waters (Representative from California) said "I'm here because my mother didn't have the right to an abortion". Powerful :rolleyes:
yeh, i should say. :rolleyes: so basically, this person would rather not exist??!? that makes no sense @ all.

[Lauroli]

yeh, i should say. :rolleyes: so basically, this person would rather not exist??!? that makes no sense @ all.

Yes, my state of California (Sodom and Gamorrah). We get the wackos! :rolleyes:

[ICarlson99]

yeh, i should say. :rolleyes: so basically, this person would rather not exist??!? that makes no sense @ all.

That's why she's so popular on the left - she yelled it really loud and was full of passion, everyone cheered :rolleyes:

[queen1939]

Here's my situation;

Last October I began seeing a co-worker. We'd known each other since August but we decided to get together since we started liking each other. He already had 3 kids by 2 women. He has custody of his two oldest whom are both teenagers. I became pregnant by him 2 months into the relationship. And my pregnancy wasn't confirmed until I was 9 weeks. Of course I felt bad because we didn't wait to have sex and it was too soon in our relationship to have a child. We didnt know alot about each other. But the way I saw it, me and him are both grown adults, I was 28 and he was 31 and we both knew better and we knew what we were doing and I didn't feel it was the baby's fault.

I dreded telling him because I knew how he'd feel before i told him about our baby. I knew he'd want me to get an abortion. And after I told him, he did exactly that. He tried to coherce me into getting an abortion because he said he couldn't afford another child right now and he didn't want to be in the system paying child support to a 4th child (he pays child support to his 3rd kid). But anyway, thats all that seemed to be his concern. I told him flat out I couldn't do it because it wasnt right. It made me sick to even think of aborting my baby. And it is my first child too. My conscience wouldn't allow it. This man wanted me to get an abortion with the quickness. He didn't think about me or what I woild have to go through if I went along with him. He told me that if I did this then he would be with me from here on out. He said he'd help me get through the emotional trauma. It all sounded like a crock of crap to me.

He even went as far as getting his female friends who'd had abortions to talk me into believing that the proceedure was simple and their was nothing to be afraid of. I told them that those proceedures are not 100% safe because anything can go wrong. And it wasn't the proceedure i was afriad of. I was more concerned with killing my baby, because its murder. Those women talked to me like an abortion was nothing to them. Like killing an innocent fetus was a simple proceedure. One of them told me she did it because her and her husband at the time were not financially where they wanted to be in order to have a kid. So she had the abortion and waited till they both were financially stable. I thought she was sick. Then the other lady told me she one because her and her boyfriend had sex too soon and she didn't want to lose the relationship. Plus she said her circumstances of living at her fathers house and already being a mother to a child already factored in. I thought she was sick too.

My baby's father tried to lay the guilt trip on me telling me that his life is ruined if I have this baby. He said his daughter wanted to go to college and if I have this baby he wouldn't be able to help her. he said I was inconsiderate of other people by going through with this pregnancy. He told me neither one of us was financially established. He said he looks bad having 3 baby momma's and 4 kids and never being married to any of us. He even asked me why would I want to have a baby by a man I've known for a few months. I told him he and I were responsible fro doing this and I'm not about to take the easy way out like his other female friends did. Besides I have a cousin whose had 7 abortions another that had 2 abortions back to back and another that had one. Now non of them can have kids again. And I think getting an abortion for the hell of it is sick and I didn't want God punishing me the way he did my cousins. I'm partially responsible and i'ma deal with it. And just so I don't have another child until I'm married or in a commited relationship. I'M GOING TO OBSTAIN FROM SEX TILL I'M IN A SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP.TAKE BIRTH CONTROL OR GET A RING PUT AROUND MY TUBES AND CONTINUE USING PROTECTION. Thats what I think females should do instead going to get an abortion evertime they end up pregnant.

So my baby's father told me since I chose the baby over him then he'd leave me to raise the baby on my own. He told me he never wants to see the baby, he don't want to know when I deliver, he don't want me to even tell the baby who the father is. He said he will not acknowledge THE CHILD. He wants to terminate his rights. He says its better this way because he can put me out of his mind as if me and him never happened and he'll be better off the less he know about the baby.

I havent seen or talked to my baby's father since January. I'm due to have our son September 1st, 2005. I do admit it does get to me sometimes when I see men with their pregnant wives or girlfriends and I'm alone. I cry sometimes when people ask where the father is because I know my son is gonna have to grow up without his. I've lost alot of friend the same friends we had because of my choice not to be pressured into an abortion. They all felt that I was crazy to have this baby and they sided with him. After talking to a paster at my church she reassured me that I made the right choice. She told me God knows I sinned and he's forgiven me for the act. Now I'm taking this life and doing what he wants me to do which is to have the child and raise it. I didn't compound the sin by getting an abortion.

This topic is one that will be debated until the end of time. But I'm against abortion being used as a convient way out of an unplanned pregnancy due to carelessness of adults. I figure if you know what your doing when you lie down and have sex then you should deal with the consequences of your actions. The unborn child is innocent and just because the parents don't want the responsibility of raising it, don't mean that a potential life should be destroyed. I went to a website called THE ABORTION CEMETARY and it made me sad to see pictures of all those aborted babies. Most were at 6 mths with heads cut off. some were the size of finger puppets and it just made me sad to think of all the childless couples out there who'd love to have a child and people gotta go and recklessly abort babies.

Now under extreme and I mean medically extreme circumstances it maybe neccessary for a woman to have an abortion. Or even if a woman is raped I cant be mad at her for having an abortion. But there are 72 hour conceptive pills for those circumstances. And even then alot of women keep their babies after they been raped. But other than those circumstances an abortion should not be granted to a women whom just wants one to be getting one.

That's just my opinion.

[Col. Mustard]

i competley agree with you. my sissy and me held out abortian panflits at a local fair, so if anyone wants to take action about it there's one way. or even outside local wall~marts or in malls. just be careful, some wacko woman came up to us, yelling as us that we should mind our own buiessness, and that women should have a right to choose. my sissy really gave a could comeback, she quietly says," what, to choose weather to kill thier child or not?" the lady just stormed away. guess she couldn't argue with that, who can?

[heartbreakpres]

Yeah, that is usually how someone reacts when you use that one on em. They don't like the thought that it is a living breathing human, they prefer to think of it as a thing a "fetus" People make me soooo sick.

[ICarlson99]

Queen1939 - thanks for sharing that. That child will be a blessing. For good or ill, you have been empowered through your life experience to be a light in the darkness to other women in similar situations.

The great tragedy of our abortion culture is not only what it does to the women and children (which is obvious) - but the distorted view it gives to men, as evidenced by your situtation. Abortion has encouraged aggressive sexual behavior and lack of personal responsibility, and it's unhealthy for everyone involved, even when pregnancy doesn't occur.

[Col. Mustard]

This is Jens friend britt i'm on her cumputer. I think abortion is totally wrong. If your not ready to have a child you should be responsible and use protection or not have it at all.

[S.A.Y.]

I Think abortion is totally wrong. I really believe abortion is murder. I hope abortion becomes banned.

[larryl]

This is Jens friend britt i'm on her cumputer. I think abortion is totally wrong. If your not ready to have a child you should be responsible and use protection or not have it at all.


not saying you were implying anything different,but how about no sex until you're married?

if we taught more of that, then the abortion issue would become smaller and smaller....