Pornography

[Evanescence]

Porn star queen - Jenna Jameson was on Oprah..the show was about women and pornography.

1 out of 3 people who view porn online are women...

Now, I know this is a touchy topic..no pun intended, so lets keep it cool and clean.

Can there be any benefits to porn and what is the difference between porn, erotica, sensuality and human sexuality?

Can a Christian or Christian couple view porn and not sin?

Is this a big deal...or are we just all uptight for nothing?

[Grank]

not sure i can watch porn without lusting... so for me it's a christian no go

[middletree]

I don't even own a pornograph.

[middletree]

Now, I know this is a touchy topic..no pun intended, so lets keep it cool and clean.

Can there be any benefits to porn and what is the difference between porn, erotica, sensuality and human sexuality?

Can a Christian or Christian couple view porn and not sin?

Is this a big deal...or are we just all uptight for nothing?

Yes, it's a big deal. When you look at Scripture, the two biggest idols named are Baal and Astoreth. Astoreth evolved over the years in name, and one of the names was Venus. But it's still the same demon behind it. And that particular demon has to do with the worship of the female form.

Again, this isn't just about what's going on inside a man's heart, although that is important, too. It's about how demons will be behind an idol, essentially receiving worship that we don't intend to give to it.

Scripture reference:
1 Corinthians 10:19-20 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.



The same demon that got God's people in trouble in the days of Astoreth is alive and well in the Internet age. And it's wreaking as much havoc as ever. I know of marriages destroyed, and for every marriage that has ended, about a hundred more have been affected, usually with the result of a major wound to the heart of a woman.

[middletree]

Additionally, the women in the pictures are affected in ways that usually perpetuate some hurt or abuse in their past, which has led to feelings of low self-worth. It's truly a vicious cycle, and that makes it evil.

[cheewiee]

Is this a legitamate question?

[middletree]

Is this a legitamate question?

Hey, it wasn't that long ago that I'd think you were crazy if you said believing Christians would say that homosexuality isn't sin. The times they are a-changin'.

[Evanescence]

But, should we lump all things as porn?

Isnt this just a mindset we have...that we cant see the good in soemthing, despite its bad rep or bad in general.

*Disclaimer*

I am not into porn....but am honest enough to say I have watched it. I am also not defending it...just trying to define and understand it.

[cheewiee]

But, should we lump all things as porn?

Isnt this just a mindset we have...that we cant see the good in soemthing, despite its bad rep or bad in general.

*Disclaimer*

I am not into porn....but am honest enough to say I have watched it. I am also not defending it...just trying to define and understand it.

What good do you think can come from porn?

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Porn star queen - Jenna Jameson was on Oprah..the show was about women and pornography.

1 out of 3 people who view porn online are women...

Now, I know this is a touchy topic..no pun intended, so lets keep it cool and clean.

Can there be any benefits to porn and what is the difference between porn, erotica, sensuality and human sexuality?

Why would you even ask this question, John? Seriously.

Can a Christian or Christian couple view porn and not sin?

"Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes, for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread, and the adulteress preys upon your very life. Can a man scoop fire into his lap without his clothes being burned? Can a man walk on hot coals without his feet being scorched?" (Proverbs 6:25-28, NIV)

Is this a big deal...or are we just all uptight for nothing?

Porn is sexual immorality; plain and simple. There are no benefits from it. Paul in particular deals with the issue many times in his letters and is always makes it abundantly clear how God sees it and how it should be dealt with.

"For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a fire that burns all the way to hell. It would wipe out everything I own." (Job 31:11-12, NLT)

"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people." (Ephesians 5:3,NIV)

This discussion really is open and shut.

[Evanescence]

It is?

Define lust?

What if a man/woman doesnt know how to please their spouse? Let me guess...Joyce Myers book - "Guide to Christian sex.." ????

Lust is a good example...but it should clearly be defined...

can't we lust after our wives/husbands?

[Evanescence]

I have a better idea...lets define PORN before anything else...

[Jesuslove]

I have a better idea...lets define PORN before anything else...

I would define PORN as visual images of one or more people engaging in sexual acts.

Would videos depicting things like bondage, without sex, be considered porn? I'm not sure. I guess it would depends on what parts of the anatomy are visible.

Another question: could it be possible that porn be used to make a couple more solid and sexually active (monogamously) together, IF the porn isn't degrading porn? I'm not married, but I'm curious what others would say.

[middletree]

Why would you even ask this question, John? Seriously.



E's first name is John?

[middletree]

Another question: could it be possible that porn be used to make a couple more solid and sexually active (monogamously) together, IF the porn isn't degrading porn? I'm not married, but I'm curious what others would say.

I would say it's still sin because the demand for such videos/pictures leads to young women being victimized by posing in the pictures.

[cheewiee]

I am going to go with a broad definition...

Any external sensory experience outside of monogamous sex within the confines of marriage engaged in, for the purpose of sexual arousal.

and I don't think any of it can be healthy... and all of it is sinful.

[Evanescence]

Some would say a naked or semi naked person is porn. So, wathcing a movie with a nude scene is porn.

How about acting out sex or close to it?

We see a movie where two teens are kissing. That's oral sex....

The fact is, many women are getting into porn to fulfill fantasy and the sex is great and safe. All porn stars have to have an HIV test, once a week.

I'll say this. I watched porn when I was 20-23...just before I was married the 1st time. It made me a WAY better lover..and my wife, the same. the learning curve was cut in half. Some men today...married for 25 yrs...have no idea how to please their wife...or their wife's body parts.

The same for women...all uptight and weird about sex. Then they wonder why their spouse leaves. Porn aint the cure...but it certianly can be educational...

[Evanescence]

I am going to go with a broad definition...

Any external sensory experience outside of monogamous sex within the confines of marriage engaged in, for the purpose of sexual arousal.

and I don't think any of it can be healthy... and all of it is sinful.

Porn or lust?

I dont watch porn but have read erotica and at times watched it AND NOT lusted...

Still no word if we can lust after our wives/husbands...

No trick wording either... :P

John :P

[Jesuslove]

I would say it's still sin because the demand for such videos/pictures leads to young women being victimized by posing in the pictures.

I think there are some exceptions. I'm by no means an expert.
From what I saw on a 20/20 type show a few years back, there are some married couples in the porn industry that work together. I don't see that as victimizing either the man or the woman. For some, porn is nothing more than a job.

I think we Christians can get too hung up on sexuality. God made us with sexual instinct. It is perfectly normal for humans to crave intimacy and sex.

[Jesuslove]

I am going to go with a broad definition...

Any external sensory experience outside of monogamous sex within the confines of marriage engaged in, for the purpose of sexual arousal.



So you notice the woman at work is wearing a mini-skirt and you become aroused. Is that porn?

[cheewiee]

Some would say a naked or semi naked person is porn. So, wathcing a movie with a nude scene is porn.

How about acting out sex or close to it?

We see a movie where two teens are kissing. That's oral sex....

The fact is, many women are getting into porn to fulfill fantasy and the sex is great and safe. All porn stars have to have an HIV test, once a week.

I'll say this. I watched porn when I was 20-23...just before I was married the 1st time. It made me a WAY better lover..and my wife, the same. the learning curve was cut in half. Some men today...married for 25 yrs...have no idea how to please their wife...or their wife's body parts.

The same for women...all uptight and weird about sex. Then they wonder why their spouse leaves. Porn aint the cure...but it certianly can be educational...

Jesus always talked about the heart... If I am looking at a Victoria's Secret Magazine to buy by wife lingere not porn... If I am looking at the same Victoria Secret Magazine to get aroused its porn....

[Jesuslove]

Jesus always talked about the heart... If I am looking at a Victoria's Secret Magazine to buy by wife lingere not porn... If I am looking at the same Victoria Secret Magazine to get aroused its porn....

Yes, but arousal is perfectly normal, natural and healthy.

I believe that if God didn't want us to look at and notice other people, He would have spelled out a strict dress code in the Bible.

[cheewiee]

Yes, but arousal is perfectly normal, natural and healthy.

I believe that if God didn't want us to look at and notice other people, He would have spelled out a strict dress code in the Bible.

Seeking to be aroused by an experience other than your Spouse is contrary to God's plan for sex...

[Salome]

OF COURSE THIS IS A BIG DEAL!! Which means it will leave some people REALLY uptight about it.

I looked up sensuality and read that it is “unrestrained indulgence in sensual pleasures; lewdness; unchastity”. I looked up erotica and read “literature or art dealing with sexual love”. And pornography “obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, esp. those having little or no artistic merit.” That was kind of funny.

God intended sex for two people and two people ALONE. A husband and a wife. As in, not for anyone else’s viewing/reading pleasure.

Are you calling “sex” nothing? Jeepers, I don’t even know where to begin or end with this. And becoming a better lover is not a good excuse for watching porn.

Sex is a craving that needs definite boundaries. For our own good.

[Evanescence]

God intended sex for two people and two people ALONE. A husband and a wife. As in, not for anyone else’s viewing/reading pleasure.

Is there any scripture to back this? I have heard this argument before...

Will you turn your head at a movie that has two people kissing? Passionate kissing is oral sex....that is clear. How many of us are guilty of sex before marriage....kissing?

How about a movie that has a "short" sex scene in it....just alittle kissing/touching etc etc? Thats simulated sex acts...porn.

See what I mean....where do we draw the line?

[Evanescence]

Jeepers, I don’t even know where to begin or end with this. And becoming a better lover is not a good excuse for watching porn.



If my wife wanted to buy/rent a specific porn video to learn how to treat me better in bed...I'd give her my credit card....no problem..

[middletree]

Passionate kissing is oral sex....that is clear.

That is not clear at all, at least not to me.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

It is?

Define lust?

What if a man/woman doesnt know how to please their spouse? Let me guess...Joyce Myers book - "Guide to Christian sex.." ????

Lust is a good example...but it should clearly be defined...

can't we lust after our wives/husbands?

Lust is sexual desire minus honour and holiness.

If my wife wanted to buy/rent a specific porn video to learn how to treat me better in bed...I'd give her my credit card....no problem..

So you want to learn how to be better in the sack by taking advice from the porn industry? God help you. Paul would be turning over in his grave. :rolleyes:

Instead of looking to get better sex shouldn't you be looking to be a better husband?

[cheewiee]

When I read scripture I see two purposes for sex. Procreation, and intimacy...

External sources of arousal destroys intimacy. When a husband turns to porn, it causes the wife to lose value in herself. It causes her to ask herself questions, like "Am I not pretty enough?" " Am I not good enough?"

In most cases I have seen it winds up destroying a wife's self image to the point where divorce in many cases becomes inevitable.

If you want a better sex life, work on your marriage. Love your wife the way Christ loves the church...

[Evanescence]

When i got re-married...my wife and I talked in depth about sex and marriage. She was neevr married. I told her point blank. If you have sexual hangups and no/low sex drive we need to break up NOW.

I also told her: If we get married...dont be lazy and pathetic...or I might turn to porn or worse. I won't look at women if I am satisfied.

Men and women almost always turn to porn or cheat becuase their spouses are lazy and pathetic in regards to pleasing their spouse. This is clear in counceling and polls in marriage councling and interviews with escorts and mistresses. Its a cause and effect.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to please your partner better.....its how you learn that, that is the issue. I dont think porn is the best way...and for the most part it is VERY destructive. but, I also know couples who began a hobby of watching porn....learning and understanding sex...and it saved their marriage.

In regards to my marriage. I dont need to watch porn or worse. I have a very loving and thoughtful wife....and even with a child bouncing around...life is good.

[Evanescence]

And I add this to my above post. Most men trigger their wives to be lazy and pathetic...in 90% of the cases...it comes from men first. men overall...have no idea how to treat women. Then, women turn cold..and it goes down hill from there...

Men are extremely stubborn and selfish...

[Evanescence]

Tree, you have often said that...basicaaly..."mainstream movies that have a positive storyline...good vs evil...is doing God work and is righteous"

Could the same be said for a porn movie with the same storyline theory?

[Salome]

Is there any scripture to back this? I have heard this argument before...

Will you turn your head at a movie that has two people kissing? Passionate kissing is oral sex....that is clear. How many of us are guilty of sex before marriage....kissing?

How about a movie that has a "short" sex scene in it....just alittle kissing/touching etc etc? Thats simulated sex acts...porn.

See what I mean....where do we draw the line?

I don’t think it’s an argument. God’s Word says in Matt 19 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

adultery is defined as voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse. The Bible is clear on the sin that is adultery.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

It's my understanding that sex involved genitalia. I definitely don’t believe passionate kissing to be oral sex.

When a person decides to view porn, they are deciding to watch two or more people engage in sexual activities. Knowing that the sex they will be viewing will most likely NOT be between a husband and wife. But more than likely in forbidden situations. Ephesians 5:1-3 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Pornography is about lust, not love.

Have I watched movies that had more than I wanted to see in regards to sex? Of course, but it’s not the reason I viewed the movie. Or even knew the movie would show. Did I walk out or turn it off like I should have? Not on all occasions. Would God want me to? Most definitely.

E, would you and your wife make a porn movie for the world to see?


If my wife wanted to buy/rent a specific porn video to learn how to treat me better in bed...I'd give her my credit card....no problem..

Before you do that, why don't you try showing/telling her yourself.

[middletree]

E, don't take this as critical as it sounds, please.

But you say your first marriage included times of watching porn together.

And you say that marriage didn't last.

Can you connect the dots?

[Evanescence]

E, don't take this as critical as it sounds, please.

But you say your first marriage included times of watching porn together.

And you say that marriage didn't last.

Can you connect the dots?

Good Lord, are you serious? Becuase I watched porn maybe 6 times in 7 yrs of marriage it failed? No, it failed becuase she had serious bi-poalr and refused to do anything about it..and was abusive. She was given the benefit of the doubt..I couldnt take it...so we split.

I drank a few times while I was married...maybe that was it....:rolleyes:

[Evanescence]

I don’t think it’s an argument. God’s Word says in Matt 19 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

adultery is defined as voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse. The Bible is clear on the sin that is adultery.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

It's my understanding that sex involved genitalia. I definitely don’t believe passionate kissing to be oral sex.

When a person decides to view porn, they are deciding to watch two or more people engage in sexual activities. Knowing that the sex they will be viewing will most likely NOT be between a husband and wife. But more than likely in forbidden situations. Ephesians 5:1-3 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Pornography is about lust, not love.

Have I watched movies that had more than I wanted to see in regards to sex? Of course, but it’s not the reason I viewed the movie. Or even knew the movie would show. Did I walk out or turn it off like I should have? Not on all occasions. Would God want me to? Most definitely.

E, would you and your wife make a porn movie for the world to see?




Before you do that, why don't you try showing/telling her yourself.

No would not. Your explanation of adultry is correct....but watching two people have sex isnt the same. Thats not adultery. It only is if lust is involved...and sometimes its not.

Now, I know people are thinking i am a closet porn user/addict etc etc. Nope, not at all. But I have viewed it..and in rare cases, i can see its benefits. To me, its just not a black/white issue and I wont paint it with a broad brush.

If a couple wants to have a hobby of watching pron, then tearing their house down with passion...good for them. If a couple wants to learn how to be better lovers from porn, good for them. If an older man who cant get a woman needs to release himself by wathcing porn. Good for him. Esp, if the alternative is something worse.


Porn can be VERY addictive. I know this as I dabbled in it when I was single. It made me feel worse...more lonely and confuded than before I watched it. But I still can see some benefits in certain situations...

Thats all i am saying....

[Jesuslove]

Is porn any worse than a food addiction?

What is sad to me is that when two people (a couple) aren't committed to the same goals. Sex is a special part of a marriage relationship. It isn't so special when the wife balloons up to 400 lbs, or the husband smokes and drinks and doesn't invest in physical intimacy. Those are just two examples. I've seen many sad situations where a husband and wife aren't on the same page and one of the partners strays. Relationships are work, and it can be a struggle to find your partner both emotionally and physically attractive. Often couiples stay together for the kids' sake. Often the kids suffer more because the couple is too stubborn to take the necessary action and get a divorce. I don't believe mdoeling a bad relationship in front of children is a good idea.

I agree with E. There are situations where porn can help enhance intimacy between a married couple. But couples who watch porn should be careful not to get too engrossed in pornography. It can become very addictive.

[middletree]

Is porn any worse than a food addiction?


A food addiction can be very bad, though.

[Evanescence]

Christians are SO uptight about talking about sex. I try to bring it up (no pun intended) among friends and they clam up big time. It amazes me how sad and pathetic my fellow male friends are, in regards to knowing their wives, women and sex.

It amazes me how lazy some women are..and then they wonder why their men dabble in porn or stray...or want to stray. No excuses...either of you...men or women. Fulfill each others needs or something bad will happen. Quit whining and complaining...stop the selfishness....enough excuses.

[Evanescence]

A food addiction can be very bad, though.

yeh, so we have the husband who is 400 lbs and cant even PERFORM sex...and his wife who opposes porn..but yet does nothing for the fat husband who is lazy, pathetic and a food addict.

..and all is well in that family cause no porn is around... :rolleyes:

Or the guy who belongs to the "men against porn" group, has his bumper stickers etc etc...yet takes his 7 yr old kids to see WWE or hockey so they can learn revenge and fighting...

Please...

[Musicdude]

So you notice the woman at work is wearing a mini-skirt and you become aroused. Is that porn?

No, but it's adultery.

[Evanescence]

No, but it's adultery.

No its not...only if lust is involved. And aroused can be a variety of things...

I have gotten aroused from my baby laying on my tummy, kicking and squirming. Does that make me a pedophile?

One can watch/read erotica and NOT lust. They can become aroused by the content...but that doesnt mean they are lusting after the person or content. Just like one can admire a woman's beauty...almost to a point of nakedness, and not lust...

Its all very rare....but it can be done and happens...

[Evanescence]

OK, men...a show of hands:

How many men can say they have given their wives a footrub, listened to her heart and kept their big mouths shut while she talked? Not a shorty either...a nice 15-20 foot rub?

How many men can say that they gave their wives a nice 30+ full body massage. Without yapping the whole time?

How many men can say they have looked their wife in the eye and told them how beautiful and special they are...at a random time, for no real reason?

any one or more of these in the past 30 days...

No lying...come on guys...show of hands...

[Musicdude]

Jesus always talked about the heart... If I am looking at a Victoria's Secret Magazine to buy by wife lingere not porn... If I am looking at the same Victoria Secret Magazine to get aroused its porn....

And if you truly only want to look to buy your wife a gift, and you notice as you look that you are being aroused, and you don't put it away, but continue to look, that is porn.

Jesus made it very clear.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
Mat 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

If you are even slightly aroused, and you choose to continue in whatever it is that is causing you to be aroused (unless it is your wife) you are lusting.

It's about adultery, not pornography. And you can't commit adultery with your wife. If she is the one arousing you, it can't be adultery.
If I look at anyone other than my wife and am aroused by what I see (or hear, or feel, or whatever) then I am committing adultery. I am only allowed to be aroused by my wife.

Not there are accidents. Like someone said if some lady at work is wearing a skimpy outfit (or even if she's dressed conservatively but is just extremely attractive) and when I look at her (or even just think about her) I become aroused, I am committing adultery. I am allowing someone or something other than my wife to turn me on, and that is adultery.

Now we are human and we make mistakes and can become accidentally aroused. For example, if I'm driving down the freeway and there is a billboard for some strip club with images of sexy women, and I see it while driving by and happen to start getting aroused, that is not a sin because it was not intentional. But if I decide to keep looking, that's when it becomes sinful.

Comparing porn to overeating is a cheap and dirty way to minimize the sinfulness of porn. It's true that sin is sin, and they are all equally putrid in God's eyes. But that doesn't make one better than another.

I have heard of women who don't mind their husbands watching porn, and some even watch it with them. I have also heard them say that they regretted it, and their low self-esteem certainly contributed to it, and was a result of it.

Any woman worth her salt is going to be jealous of her man getting aroused by anyone but her, as well she should.

If God gets jealous of use when we worship idols, and compares it to adultery in a marriage, then it is certainly a normal thing for a wife to get jealous when her husband plays the harlot, even if only in his mind.

There is no excuse for it. And blaming your wife for your own sinful desires is about as low as it gets in my opinion. If you are watching porn (which is unarguably sinful according to God's word) it is your fault, not your wife's for not being sensual enough. If you would be the husband she needs, she would probably respond by being the wife you need. You are supposed to be the leader as a man, not the follower. And going to porn as a result of her not doing what you need, is being a follower/responder not a leader. So man up and be the husband that God has called you to be, and you will be amazed by how your wife responds to that. I am speaking in general here, not to you personally E. I know many in that situation, and the only thing pathetic about it is how the men refuse to be Christian leaders in their marriage.

Any moron over about 13 years old can figure out the ins and outs (no pun intended) of sex. It's really not that difficult, to do well. And there is no way to get good at it other than to practice, and the only right way to practice is with your wife and no one else. You can learn together, and if you care about pleasing your wife (which you should) then you will learn fast, and she will too.
But there is nothing you can or should do prior to marriage to "prepare" for married sex. It will come naturally if you love each other.

I speak as one who had a porn addiction prior to marriage, and have been delivered from it not that long ago. I know what a problem it can be for a man and a woman, and you will not convince me there is anything good whatsoever that can come from it. It is evil through and through, and designed by satan to destroy marriages and famlies. And it works quite well at it's designed task.

[Musicdude]

OK, men...a show of hands:

How many men can say they have given their wives a footrub, listened to her heart and kept their big mouths shut while she talked? Not a shorty either...a nice 15-20 foot rub?
Almost daily.

How many men can say that they gave their wives a nice 30+ full body massage. Without yapping the whole time?
No less than once a month.

How many men can say they have looked their wife in the eye and told them how beautiful and special they are...at a random time, for no real reason?
Daily.


And I'll add one thing.

Every morning when I get to work (after nature calls and while I'm drinking my first cup of coffee) I write her an email where I talk about the day before and whatever plans for today are, and I tell her how much I love her and I title it "Good morning beautiful," and at the end I pray for her in the email and for our kids.

[Jesuslove]

No its not...only if lust is involved. And aroused can be a variety of things...

I have gotten aroused from my baby laying on my tummy, kicking and squirming. Does that make me a pedophile?

One can watch/read erotica and NOT lust. They can become aroused by the content...but that doesnt mean they are lusting after the person or content. Just like one can admire a woman's beauty...almost to a point of nakedness, and not lust...

Its all very rare....but it can be done and happens...

Agreed.. one can watch Erotica and not lust. And arousal and lust are two very different things.

[Jesuslove]

Any moron over about 13 years old can figure out the ins and outs (no pun intended) of sex. It's really not that difficult, to do well. And there is no way to get good at it other than to practice, and the only right way to practice is with your wife and no one else. You can learn together, and if you care about pleasing your wife (which you should) then you will learn fast, and she will too.
But there is nothing you can or should do prior to marriage to "prepare" for married sex. It will come naturally if you love each other.


I disagree. Some people have natural sexual abilities; others do not. And what happens when one of the spouses eats too much, balloons to some obscene weight, and they are no longer attractive to their partner? This happens more often than most married couples would like to think.

[Musicdude]

I have gotten aroused from my baby laying on my tummy, kicking and squirming. Does that make me a pedophile?


If when you notice the arousal you don't move your baby to where he is not kicking you there, but continue to allow him to do so even though it's arousing you, then quite frankly, yes you are.

I've been there too, and my wife has trouble understanding that, because women are different. It's never "just physical" with women. But sometimes it is with men. So even something like my 11 month old daughter climbing over me and accidentally putting her hand or foot there can cause arousal. But when that happens, or even if I can tell it's going to happen, I quickly move her to where she is not near it anymore. Because I under no circumstances want to be aroused by anyone or anything other than my wife, especially not my children. That may seem innocent, but pedophiles aren't born that way. It starts somewhere.

[Musicdude]

I disagree. Some people have natural sexual abilities; others do not. And what happens when one of the spouses eats too much, balloons to some obscene weight, and they are no longer attractive to their partner? This happens more often than most married couples would like to think.

Then they need to realize they are sinning by lusting after food, and confess it to God and to their spouse and start eating right. Adding another sin to the pile is not the answer.

[middletree]

yeh, so we have the husband who is 400 lbs and cant even PERFORM sex...and his wife who opposes porn..but yet does nothing for the fat husband who is lazy, pathetic and a food addict.

..and all is well in that family cause no porn is around... :rolleyes:

Or the guy who belongs to the "men against porn" group, has his bumper stickers etc etc...yet takes his 7 yr old kids to see WWE or hockey so they can learn revenge and fighting...

Please...Dude, what's your problem? I just answered your question honestly, and you complain about the answer. Then you post other posts where you complain that people clam up because they're uptight. What the heck do you want? You want people to just come here and agree with everything you say? If you ask for honesty and openness, then quit slamming those who give you what you ask for.

[Musicdude]

With sexual immorality, it is much easier to define what it isn't than what it is.

Anything consentual between a man and wife only (that exclues even images of any other person) is good.

Anything else falls into the category of sexual immorality (pornea in the Greek) and it's sinful.

[Jesuslove]

With sexual immorality, it is much easier to define what it isn't than what it is.

Anything consentual between a man and wife only (that exclues even images of any other person) is good.

Anything else falls into the category of sexual immorality (pornea in the Greek) and it's sinful.

Do you go to the movies often? Even tv today is filled with explicit images of people, as is magazine advertising. It is hard to avoid.

[Musicdude]

Do you go to the movies often? Even tv today is filled with explicit images of people, as is magazine advertising. It is hard to avoid.

It's hard to avoid, but it's not impossible.

We have no rated R movies in our house (and that was even before our daughter was born). We don't rent rated R movies and we don't watch them on TV. Now some PG-13 stuff pushes the boundaries, so unless I am certain a movie is ok, I'll check it out on a Christian website that reviews movies, and if there is sexual content, we will not watch it.

Now with TV, we don't have cable or satellite. We only have the antenna with the digital box. But even that has some stuff, and when we are watching a show and let's say a Victoria's Secret commercial comes on, I look away. My wife doesn't need to look away, because she isn't tempted by women. And if it's a man thing, she will look away.

Other than that we just use good judgement as to what's ok and what's not. Always asking the question "would this be glorifying to God or not" pretty much solves the problem in our house.

You have to be proactive in today's world, unlike 50 years ago when that stuff wasn't as prevalent.

[Evanescence]

Almost daily.


No less than once a month.


Daily.


And I'll add one thing.

Every morning when I get to work (after nature calls and while I'm drinking my first cup of coffee) I write her an email where I talk about the day before and whatever plans for today are, and I tell her how much I love her and I title it "Good morning beautiful," and at the end I pray for her in the email and for our kids.

Good job..I hope she reciprocates and it isnt all a flash in the pan....

[Grank]

murder is wrong... how many movies do we watch with murder in them?

why is pornography different?

[Evanescence]

Comparing porn to overeating is a cheap and dirty way to minimize the sinfulness of porn. It's true that sin is sin, and they are all equally putrid in God's eyes. But that doesn't make one better than another.

I have heard of women who don't mind their husbands watching porn, and some even watch it with them. I have also heard them say that they regretted it, and their low self-esteem certainly contributed to it, and was a result of it.

Any woman worth her salt is going to be jealous of her man getting aroused by anyone but her, as well she should.


I'll throw the BS flag here. Your're sterotyping. I know this is an extreme case, but what about the couples that have arrangements...that the woman LOVES watching her man be pleased by another woman? Like in Polygamy relationships?

I would never be with a woman who had jealous issues. I intentionally checked that out and discussed that with my wife before we went past the 2nd date. My 1st wife was a jealous, emotional addict..and I wasnt having it again.

I think its cute when my wife finds a guy good looking or hot. And her the same with me...but we dont abuse it.

The only real reason why men/women get jealous of their spouse looking...is becuase they know how lazy, sad and pathetic they are. Or they have been taught that behavior and spoiled by it...

[Evanescence]

murder is wrong... how many movies do we watch with murder in them?

why is pornography different?


Good point...

[Evanescence]

If when you notice the arousal you don't move your baby to where he is not kicking you there, but continue to allow him to do so even though it's arousing you, then quite frankly, yes you are.

I've been there too, and my wife has trouble understanding that, because women are different. It's never "just physical" with women. But sometimes it is with men. So even something like my 11 month old daughter climbing over me and accidentally putting her hand or foot there can cause arousal. But when that happens, or even if I can tell it's going to happen, I quickly move her to where she is not near it anymore. Because I under no circumstances want to be aroused by anyone or anything other than my wife, especially not my children. That may seem innocent, but pedophiles aren't born that way. It starts somewhere.

Man, you are wound up tight....

I do move when it happens but that doesnt make me a pedophile. Its an automatic response....

[Evanescence]

It's hard to avoid, but it's not impossible.

We have no rated R movies in our house (and that was even before our daughter was born). We don't rent rated R movies and we don't watch them on TV. Now some PG-13 stuff pushes the boundaries, so unless I am certain a movie is ok, I'll check it out on a Christian website that reviews movies, and if there is sexual content, we will not watch it.

Now with TV, we don't have cable or satellite. We only have the antenna with the digital box. But even that has some stuff, and when we are watching a show and let's say a Victoria's Secret commercial comes on, I look away. My wife doesn't need to look away, because she isn't tempted by women. And if it's a man thing, she will look away.

Other than that we just use good judgement as to what's ok and what's not. Always asking the question "would this be glorifying to God or not" pretty much solves the problem in our house.

You have to be proactive in today's world, unlike 50 years ago when that stuff wasn't as prevalent.

See, I know some women this way....in fact my wife has issues with movies. of suspense and/or spooky stuff. I almost cannot take it...

If you cant figure out for yourself what the film is about...or read the synopsis...then go or not go....and have to make a big deal about it....then, you have some issues...

"glory to God?" Whose definition we going by here?

I guess to each their own...but I have more importna things to worry about than walking on egg shells about every single thing....

[Evanescence]

Dude, what's your problem? I just answered your question honestly, and you complain about the answer. Then you post other posts where you complain that people clam up because they're uptight. What the heck do you want? You want people to just come here and agree with everything you say? If you ask for honesty and openness, then quit slamming those who give you what you ask for.

No...just showing how the mind works...we believe only what we WANT to believe...

tree, you're not 400 lbs are you? :P

[Evanescence]

There is no excuse for it. And blaming your wife for your own sinful desires is about as low as it gets in my opinion. If you are watching porn (which is unarguably sinful according to God's word) it is your fault, not your wife's for not being sensual enough. If you would be the husband she needs, she would probably respond by being the wife you need. You are supposed to be the leader as a man, not the follower. And going to porn as a result of her not doing what you need, is being a follower/responder not a leader. So man up and be the husband that God has called you to be, and you will be amazed by how your wife responds to that. I am speaking in general here, not to you personally E. I know many in that situation, and the only thing pathetic about it is how the men refuse to be Christian leaders in their marriage.

Any moron over about 13 years old can figure out the ins and outs (no pun intended) of sex. It's really not that difficult, to do well. And there is no way to get good at it other than to practice, and the only right way to practice is with your wife and no one else. You can learn together, and if you care about pleasing your wife (which you should) then you will learn fast, and she will too.
But there is nothing you can or should do prior to marriage to "prepare" for married sex. It will come naturally if you love each other.

I speak as one who had a porn addiction prior to marriage, and have been delivered from it not that long ago. I know what a problem it can be for a man and a woman, and you will not convince me there is anything good whatsoever that can come from it. It is evil through and through, and designed by satan to destroy marriages and famlies. And it works quite well at it's designed task.


People clearly trigger others to do stuff. Its called leading soemone astray. Doesnt Paul tell us NOT to abstain while married...or soemthing bad might happen?

People need to be touched and felt loved..and felt desired. Thats why celebacy is IMO, an unnatural act..that only creates more problem than good. Men and women need to take care of each others needs..or else. Each will be at fault....one for doing what he/she did...the other, for FORCING the other person to do it.

Your next comment about any moron learning about sex is beyond laughable. I bet I could ask you 3 questions about a woman's sexuality and you'd not know anything about...

But, then again...you were into porn...so maybe not....:P

Your addiction is not the problem of others. Shall we ban alcohol because of the few that are drunks?

Fooling around with this useless thread tells me I may be an Internet addict....

I CANT STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

[VerbumReale]

I love the logic being applied here that just because something feels "normal" then it must be perectly healthy and accepted by God. So if I felt myself attracted to a woman I work with and she felt a mutual attraction, then that is perefectly healthy just because it might feel normal to us?? There would be no problem in embracing those feelings, even though I am married?? After all they feel normal.

When in the wide, wide, world of sports did something feeling normal automatically make it healthy and acceptable by God? When did Christians forget that we are a fallen humanity??? It's not about being uptight about sex (I get so nauseated by that ill-conceived assertion). It is about recognizing that God has placed boundaries around certain behaviors for a reason; because we are ainners!!

In his book "Wild at heart" John Eldredge really digs into this issue of porn and how it affects people. We give in way too easily to the temptation to believe that porn is a "victimless offense." But the truth is far from that. In the case of a couple finding sexual vitality through the use of porn; the problem with that is that they are not dealing with the core issue; intimacy. The only way to truly find viatality in a couple's sex life is to enhance intimacy. And that has very little to do with candles, and rose petals and negligees (although they don't hurt). Intimacy is enhanced with the little things; showing affection more, being more appreciative, being a better parent etc. A good friend of mine used to say that "fore-play begins in the kitchen when you're having breakfast."

A couple might delude themselves into thinking that watching porn re-vitalizes their marriage, but since it's finding gratifcation not in each other, but in the people in porn, then it's not enhancing intimacy and will make, at best, a delusional band-aid for a little while, but will ultimately lead to unhelthy behavior. And sorry E, but this is not about being uptight about sex. Quite to the contrary; I love sex and recognize it for the blessed and glorious gift that it is and thus recognize how porn only cheapens it.

Let's apply this logic that if something feels normal then it must be healthy to a venue outside of sex. My son is autistic and has trouble communicating. As such, it might feel normal for him sometime to hit people in order to get their attention. Does that mean that behavior is healthy?? Does that mean it is acceptable?? Or what about his autism?? He was born with epilepsy which led to his developing autism; does that mean his epilepsy and autism are blessed by God??

[Musicdude]

Man, you are wound up tight....

I do move when it happens but that doesnt make me a pedophile. Its an automatic response....

I didn't say it did make you a pedophile. I said the obvious.
If you let it continue even though it aroused you, you would be a pedophile.
I don't think you are disagreed about that.

[Musicdude]

murder is wrong... how many movies do we watch with murder in them?

why is pornography different?

Because the sin of pornography involves the eyes and the senses. Murder does not. Murder involved a physical action. It's not a sin to watch someone be murdered. It is a sin to murder someone.

That includes hate according to Jesus.

[R. Smith]

I read a book, about a famous Christian artist who got into porno. He was/is married, and in the music industry. I guess he has a very popular Christian song in the early 90's.

He started getting into porno, as in looking @ books and buying videos. He started losing his voice, and never really got it back. And yes, his Wife found 1 of the videos.

In the book the man said he never cheated on his wife, but could have. And he also said porn was so hard to get out of his life.

God has grace, and he is still in the music ministry. He is still married to his wife, they worked things out. But Porn almost broke up thier marriage.

[Musicdude]

Good job..I hope she reciprocates and it isnt all a flash in the pan....

Absolutely. She takes care of me quite well.
My wife is the greatest blessing in my life. Aside from my salvation there is nothing I am more thankful for.

[Musicdude]

I'll throw the BS flag here. Your're sterotyping. I know this is an extreme case, but what about the couples that have arrangements...that the woman LOVES watching her man be pleased by another woman? Like in Polygamy relationships?

I would never be with a woman who had jealous issues. I intentionally checked that out and discussed that with my wife before we went past the 2nd date. My 1st wife was a jealous, emotional addict..and I wasnt having it again.

I think its cute when my wife finds a guy good looking or hot. And her the same with me...but we dont abuse it.

The only real reason why men/women get jealous of their spouse looking...is becuase they know how lazy, sad and pathetic they are. Or they have been taught that behavior and spoiled by it...

Jealousy in marriage is normal and healthy, as I illustrated with the scriptural analogy.

I my wife wasn't jealous of me, I would be worried she didn't love me.

The reason your wife should get jealous, is because your body belongs to her. You quoted Paul a minute ago about not abstaining. Read the rest of that chapter. If your body is hers, then when some other woman is checking out what belongs to her, and coveting it, she has the right to be jealous.

[R. Smith]

I am not married, never have been. And I've been single for 13 going onto 14 years. When I do get married, I will never bring porn in to the marriage. Its just how I am, and how I was raised.

[Musicdude]

See, I know some women this way....in fact my wife has issues with movies. of suspense and/or spooky stuff. I almost cannot take it...

If you cant figure out for yourself what the film is about...or read the synopsis...then go or not go....and have to make a big deal about it....then, you have some issues...
Think whatever you want. But I assure you this was my decision, not hers. Although she is in absolute agreement. Neither of us want to be tempted, so we do what we can to avoid it.

"glory to God?" Whose definition we going by here?
God's.

I guess to each their own...but I have more importna things to worry about than walking on egg shells about every single thing....
Like what? What's more imporant that being sure that everything you do brings glory to God?

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

[Musicdude]

I read a book, about a famous Christian artist who got into porno. He was/is married, and in the music industry. I guess he has a very popular Christian song in the early 90's.

He started getting into porno, as in looking @ books and buying videos. He started losing his voice, and never really got it back. And yes, his Wife found 1 of the videos.

In the book the man said he never cheated on his wife, but could have. And he also said porn was so hard to get out of his life.

God has grace, and he is still in the music ministry. He is still married to his wife, they worked things out. But Porn almost broke up thier marriage.

Clay Crosse?

My wife and I and some friends of ours went to a marriage seminar put on by Clay and his wife. He has a powerful witness.

One of the questions he asked the guys during the guys only segment where the guys and girls spit off into seperate rooms. "Does anyone here think that porn is ok?" In a room with hundreds of guys, no one raised their hand.
I have a feeling Evanescense knows it's wrong too, or he wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

[Musicdude]

People clearly trigger others to do stuff. Its called leading soemone astray. Doesnt Paul tell us NOT to abstain while married...or soemthing bad might happen?
Yeah, like being tempted to look at porn maybe. lol
But he didn't say you were powerless to resist the temptation. One of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control.

People need to be touched and felt loved..and felt desired. Thats why celebacy is IMO, an unnatural act..that only creates more problem than good.
Do you mean celebacy prior to marriage? Because it is a good thing, as I can attest to.

Men and women need to take care of each others needs..or else. Each will be at fault....one for doing what he/she did...the other, for FORCING the other person to do it.
I agree that husbands and wives should take care of each other's needs. But nothing your wife can or will ever do or not do, will ever give you the right to sin. Ever. You are accountable to God for your own sins, and she is accountable for hers. She is not accountable for yours.

Your next comment about any moron learning about sex is beyond laughable. I bet I could ask you 3 questions about a woman's sexuality and you'd not know anything about...
This it not appropriate for this forum. IM me if you want.

But, then again...you were into porn...so maybe not....:P
The only thing porn taught me is how to objectify women. I'd rather have not learned that lesson.
Rabbits don't watch porn, and they seem to figure it out. I'd like to think I'm at least as smart as a rabbit. lol

Your addiction is not the problem of others. Shall we ban alcohol because of the few that are drunks?
I didn't say anything about banning porn. I said that as Christians we should avoid things that we know are sinful.

Fooling around with this useless thread tells me I may be an Internet addict....

I CANT STOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:
The first step is admitting you have a problem. :D



.....waiting on that IM....

[g-man]

Never thought I'd come to the 3D boards and see 5 pages of porn. :eek: :P

[Grank]

Because the sin of pornography involves the eyes and the senses. Murder does not. Murder involved a physical action. It's not a sin to watch someone be murdered. It is a sin to murder someone.

That includes hate according to Jesus.

sex is ok. murder is not.

watching murder is ok. watching sex is not.

not sure i agree... i feel like lust is the issue... not sex itself. if you watch murder cuz you lust after it, it's just as wrong as watching sex cuz you lust after it.

murder is just less appealing to most.

[Grank]

Rabbits don't watch porn, and they seem to figure it out. I'd like to think I'm at least as smart as a rabbit. lol


if procreation is the only goal then this analogy is correct

[Musicdude]

sex is ok. murder is not.

watching murder is ok. watching sex is not.

not sure i agree... i feel like lust is the issue... not sex itself. if you watch murder cuz you lust after it, it's just as wrong as watching sex cuz you lust after it.

murder is just less appealing to most.

The first thing you said here is not true, so the rest is also untrue.

"Sex is ok" is not a true statement.
Just any old sex between anyone is not ok.
Sex is only ok between a man and his wife.

You might say then if the couple in the porn is married, it's ok then to watch them. Have you ever seen porn in which the couple was married? I'm sure it exists, because everything else exists, but it's rare. So now we've narrowed down what you can watch by about 99%.

The reason it's not ok even in that scenario is because you are comitting adultery when you do it. And adultery is a sin. You are cheating on your wife, either physically (even if you are pleasing yourself, the bible makes it clear that your boby is you wife's to please, not your own) or mentally. The one who sins sexually, sins against his own body. It says that in 1Corinthians.

The bible doesn't say not to lust in general. It says not to lust after a woman specifically. But I think it's fairly easy to see that the same would apply about lusting after men if he was talking to women at the time.

So lusting to murder is hate, and hate is it's own sin. That is a toatally seperate issue. Jesus covered that. Even murdering someone in your heart is the same to God as physically going through with it.

[Musicdude]

if procreation is the only goal then this analogy is correct

I was joking. But how do you know rabbits don't enjoy it? ;)

Like I said if you desire to please your wife and she desires to please you, it's not hard to get good at it. It takes time and energy, but it's not like you don't enjoy practicing.

Honey does that feel good? Not really, could you try this?
Ok, how about now? Oh yeah, that's wonderful.
How about you snookums? Anything you'd like me to do?
Well, you could try this. Oh yeah, keep doing that.
lol

I can't believe I had to type that out to explain this to you guys.

And that might be ackward at first, but eventually you'll not have to ask anymore. You'll just know what feels good to her and what doesn't.
And it get's better with more practice.

But see what I mean? You can learn how to please your partner quite easily with a little communication. Not only is porn not necessary, it's extremely detrimental to a marriage.
Man I hope none of you have to learn that the hard way.

[Grank]

I was joking. But how do you know rabbits don't enjoy it? ;)



i know lol but seriously though, the pleasure centers in their brains don't get excited... if i remember correctly, only dolphins and humans get that part. i could be wrong though

[Grank]

snookums?

you never call me snookums... :(

[Evanescence]

I was joking. But how do you know rabbits don't enjoy it? ;)

Like I said if you desire to please your wife and she desires to please you, it's not hard to get good at it. It takes time and energy, but it's not like you don't enjoy practicing.

Honey does that feel good? Not really, could you try this?
Ok, how about now? Oh yeah, that's wonderful.
How about you snookums? Anything you'd like me to do?
Well, you could try this. Oh yeah, keep doing that.
lol

I can't believe I had to type that out to explain this to you guys.

And that might be ackward at first, but eventually you'll not have to ask anymore. You'll just know what feels good to her and what doesn't.
And it get's better with more practice.

But see what I mean? You can learn how to please your partner quite easily with a little communication. Not only is porn not necessary, it's extremely detrimental to a marriage.
Man I hope none of you have to learn that the hard way.

good analogy...but its much deeper than that....and why take 20 yrs to learn something so simple you can read it in a book...or just learn it. Women....specifically are far more complex than men....far more.

In reality, most men dont care...

[Evanescence]

Do you mean celebacy prior to marriage? Because it is a good thing, as I can attest to.


Really? How'd you cope with it...viewing porn?

I mean in general...unless you have NO sex drive...its gonna give you problems. Esp in this day and age where sex is everywhere. The problems with the RMC is a good example...

[Musicdude]

i know lol but seriously though, the pleasure centers in their brains don't get excited... if i remember correctly, only dolphins and humans get that part. i could be wrong though

Stinks to be a rabbit.

[Musicdude]

good analogy...but its much deeper than that....and why take 20 yrs to learn something so simple you can read it in a book...or just learn it. Women....specifically are far more complex than men....far more.

In reality, most men dont care...

Because I don't give a crap how many books you read or videos you watch, nothing can replace plain old experience. And every woman is different anyway. Besides there are instructional books out there that do not even remotely resemble pornography. I see nothing wrong with reading those books. There are even Christian books like that.

[Musicdude]

Really? How'd you cope with it...viewing porn?

I mean in general...unless you have NO sex drive...its gonna give you problems. Esp in this day and age where sex is everywhere. The problems with the RMC is a good example...

Yes, with porn. I relied on my own resources instead of relying on God. And I was completely wrong for doing so. I can say that, because I've been there.

I could say it was hard because I waited so long to get married. (I was 29). Or that there was temptation around every corner. I could say that every man struggles with it. I could say a lot of things. But the truth is, there is no excuse for it. I was weak in my flesh, because I didn't rely on God. End of story.

[Evanescence]

Dr. Phil now - Affairs, why people cheat

MD, you got a lot of courage admitting your past faults/addictions....kudos for that...

In other news, not too mnay guys admitting how they treat their wives...Hmmm...might be some deprived women out there...

Footrub anyone? Only as friends though... :P

[Jesuslove]

Jealousy in marriage is normal and healthy, as I illustrated with the scriptural analogy.

I my wife wasn't jealous of me, I would be worried she didn't love me.

The reason your wife should get jealous, is because your body belongs to her. You quoted Paul a minute ago about not abstaining. Read the rest of that chapter. If your body is hers, then when some other woman is checking out what belongs to her, and coveting it, she has the right to be jealous.

Sounds more to me like co-dependence and dysfunction.

This statement sounds like something I would have said in 11th grade.

Jealousy leads to unnecessary drama which leads to dysfunction and relationships ending. As E said, who wants to walk on eggshells?

[Jesuslove]

The only real reason why men/women get jealous of their spouse looking...is becuase they know how lazy, sad and pathetic they are. Or they have been taught that behavior and spoiled by it...

Amen. In my opinion, jealousy is just an excuse to act out in a childish manner.

[Jesuslove]

Let's apply this logic that if something feels normal then it must be healthy to a venue outside of sex. My son is autistic and has trouble communicating. As such, it might feel normal for him sometime to hit people in order to get their attention. Does that mean that behavior is healthy?? Does that mean it is acceptable?? Or what about his autism?? He was born with epilepsy which led to his developing autism; does that mean his epilepsy and autism are blessed by God??

It may not be acceptable in your eyes or society's eyes, but to your son, his behavior is perfectly normal. Since the behavior is normal to your son, I think God would look at your son's intent, rather than the sinful nature of his actions.

[middletree]

it was hard because I waited so long to get married.


(resists making a really immature joke.)

[Evanescence]

lol...the chubby, low self-esteem women are in the front row booing the guy who says that men cheat becuase their wives get lazy and dont take care of themselves and stop taking care of their men...

....next it will be the lazy husband who mistreats his wife and wonders why she strays....

Duh....

[mcgreen311]

lol...the chubby, low self-esteem women are in the front row booing the guy who says that men cheat becuase their wives get lazy and dont take care of themselves and stop taking care of their men...

Yeah, that statement's not offensive at all. /sarcasm Actually I think i somehow managed to see that particular episode. Is this the one with the women cheaters on stage? In any case, I sincerely hope you don't think that is justification for cheating. (It's hard to tell if this is your opinion or a comment on the show)

....next it will be the lazy husband who mistreats his wife and wonders why she strays....

Duh....

So being chubby with low self-esteem is tantamount to mistreatment? What do you mean by lazy husband in that regard?

[mcgreen311]

Amen. In my opinion, jealousy is just an excuse to act out in a childish manner.

I'm wondering if that is the way Musicdude actually means 'jealousy' though. There are, after all, a few references to God being jealous. Might be a good point of clarification...

Exodus 20:4-6 (English Standard Version)

4(A) "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands[a] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:13-15 (English Standard Version)
13You shall tear down their altars and(B) break their pillars and cut down their Asherim 14(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), 15 lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice,

[Jesuslove]

So being chubby with low self-esteem is tantamount to mistreatment?

Yes, very much so. Not taking care of one's body and soul is mistreatment of self. And how can someone take care of someone else, when they don't love themselves enough to take care of themselves.

This is not a criticism of men or women specifically, but of all people who fail to take care of themselves. It's like giving someone a gift that is less than. If you truly love someone (in my opinion), you would want to give them the best you can be, the most fit you can be, the most beautiful you can be. I can't see someone with low self-esteem (whether with weight issues or not), being the best match for anyone.

[Musicdude]

Sounds more to me like co-dependence and dysfunction.

This statement sounds like something I would have said in 11th grade.

Jealousy leads to unnecessary drama which leads to dysfunction and relationships ending. As E said, who wants to walk on eggshells?

Then tell God he's co-dependant and dysfunctional, because He feels the EXACT same way about His people.

As McGreen noted, I am talking about righteous jealousy. If it's good enough for God, it's good enough for my marriage.

[Musicdude]

Yes, very much so. Not taking care of one's body and soul is mistreatment of self. And how can someone take care of someone else, when they don't love themselves enough to take care of themselves.

This is not a criticism of men or women specifically, but of all people who fail to take care of themselves. It's like giving someone a gift that is less than. If you truly love someone (in my opinion), you would want to give them the best you can be, the most fit you can be, the most beautiful you can be. I can't see someone with low self-esteem (whether with weight issues or not), being the best match for anyone.

So if you fail in some way that gives your spouse justification to cheat on you with another person, or with porn? That is what you and E are saying. What about when your wife just gets old and wrinkly? Is porn ok then? What if she is in a car-wreck and her body is mangled? Porn ok then?

I'm glad my wife doesn't just love me for my good looks. Seriously. Talk about shallow. Love and sex are not about looks.

[Jesuslove]

Then tell God he's co-dependant and dysfunctional, because He feels the EXACT same way about His people.

As McGreen noted, I am talking about righteous jealousy. If it's good enough for God, it's good enough for my marriage.

Um...good luck with that... It all sounds like a bunch of unnecessary drama to me. I'd much rather someone be direct with me, than play jealousy games.

[Jesuslove]

So if you fail in some way that gives your spouse justification to cheat on you with another person, or with porn? That is what you and E are saying. What about when your wife just gets old and wrinkly? Is porn ok then? What if she is in a car-wreck and her body is mangled? Porn ok then?

I'm glad my wife doesn't just love me for my good looks. Seriously. Talk about shallow. Love and sex are not about looks.

No, what I'm saying is this.. If you love someone that much, you'd take care of yourself. (I mean you in the general sense, not you specifically). Why give someone a crappy fat body, when with exercise, diet, and maintenance, you could give them a body that would inspire, enrich, and seduce them.

Looks aren't the complete package; but why have a broken down big package, when you could have a nice lean package to offer.

Again, if you love yourself, you will take care of your body. If you don't love yourself, how can you expect others to love you?

[Evanescence]

There's a difference between soemthing you CAN'T help..and what you can help...

You know if you're sad and pathetic...there are warning signs and ways of knowing. Too stubborn to change? You may lose your spouse...

We know of a couple-- beautiful woman with 2 kids-- husband is a workaholic, bum abd inconsiterate. they dont sleep togehrer and he literally works 7 days a week. He treats her like dirt. She has told him....the family too. He doesnt care.

I hope she DOES leave him. He has it coming...he's a bum. Its probably the only way he'll get it. One weekend with me and she'd never look back....

He makes all men look bad...

[Evanescence]

Love is not about looks. Thats what people dont get...any man can have the prettiest girl-- supermodel hot...if he carries himself right.

One must have the Kavorka... :cool:

[Evanescence]

The dude on dr. Phil said this:

1. Women are biologically wired to go after the Alpha Male...and will lose interest if their Alpha male isnt so Alpha anymore.

2. Men are biologically wired to cheat/be with more than one woman. Its up to their spouse/woman to not let him stray...by taking care of him.

While these are quite exaggerated, there is some truth to them. With men, we have to turn to God to help us with our animal instincts. But, overall..the main thing is to take care of the marriage and our partner..and go the extra mile-- servanthood. No excuses....no whining or complaning.

Girls- Put on sme weight after having a baby. Hit the gym...no excuses. For your health, your self esteem and your husband.

Girls - too tired for "nocturnal activities" ? Get some sleep...make time, not excuses.

Men - Got a nasty habit that offends your wife? Knock it off...quit, now. No excuses.

Men - Too busy to remeber special occasions for the wife? make time...not excuses.

Men - Need Viagra? Go get it...stop being stubborn and knock it off.

Those that re good at making excuses...are seldom good at anything else...

[VerbumReale]

There is a difference between normal and acceptable. It might be more normal for my son to want to lash out because of his frustration over his difficulty in communicating. It doesn't make it acceptable for him to do so; and it definitely doesn't make it acceptable for his mother and I to teach him that such behavior is acceptable. And because we haven't, he knows that such behavior is not acceptable. But still once in a while he slips up because his insticts still tell him to lash out. The fact that he may not intend to act unnaceptably, doesn't make it acceptable when he does.

And this has nothing to do with how he will stand in front of God. If we're looking to our noble intentions to make a difference in our standing with God then we are doomed.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to please your partner better.....its how you learn that, that is the issue.

No, of course there isn't anything wrong with looking to please your partner better. But I find it hard to believe that people who claim they watch porn to get aroused and/or save their marriage are doing it for purely unselfish reasons. My suspicion is that those who claim that they want to please their partner better by giving them better sex are really looking for their partner to give them better time in the bedroom.

I dont think porn is the best way...and for the most part it is VERY destructive

Where do I start with this, E? ..."For the most part"? Are you suggesting that even though porn tears apart lives, families, relationships and churches that it is somehow good? By that logic you could argue that nuclear weapons are somehow good. After all, it did stop a war. Never mind the tens of thousands of innocent Japanese civilians that were murdered to achieve that. I guess the ends justify the means.

but, I also know couples who began a hobby of watching porn....learning and understanding sex...and it saved their marriage.

I'm not marriage counsellor but I would imagine if a couple needs to resort to watching porn to get their fire going then there are probably far deeper issues that need addressing first.

I really feel that you need to start providing some back up for your arguments, John. As Christians we believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority and that it has all the answers we need. Both myself and others have already provided significant scriptural support to argue that porn and other forms of sexual immorality are destructive by their very nature. Perhaps you should think about arguing with the Bible rather than with the logic and values of man...

[Evanescence]

I'm not marriage counsellor but I would imagine if a couple needs to resort to watching porn to get their fire going then there are probably far deeper issues that need addressing first.

I really feel that you need to start providing some back up for your arguments, John. As Christians we believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority and that it has all the answers we need. Both myself and others have already provided significant scriptural support to argue that porn and other forms of sexual immorality are destructive by their very nature. Perhaps you should think about arguing with the Bible rather than with the logic and values of man...


You see, you seem to think that everyone has your belief or SHOULD have your belief. Some people are more liberal than others...not worried about some things like some Christians are. I'm not talking about ME...but people in general.

You also seem to think i am advocating the use of pron or defending it. I merely brought up a topic...a senssitive one...and thats all. there's no argument...I have no real stance either way to show. I dont deal in absolutes or black/white issues.

And I am certianly not discussing marriage with someone who has never been married.....sorry, but I'm not. Its a topic...not a committe meeting.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Really? How'd you cope with it...viewing porn?

I mean in general...unless you have NO sex drive...its gonna give you problems. Esp in this day and age where sex is everywhere. The problems with the RMC is a good example...

Why do you assume every guy is a sex crazed nut? Some people actually detest their sin.

[Howlin' Wolf]

You see, you seem to think that everyone has your belief or SHOULD have your belief. Some people are more liberal than others...not worried about some things like some Christians are. I'm not talking about ME...but people in general.

Why are we talking about people in general? We should only be concerned with the actions of those inside the church. To say that christians are uptight about sex because they don't like to talk about it is such an ignorant thing to say. My girlfriend is one the most prudish and uptight girls I have ever met. Have we talked about sex? Yes. Do I get the feeling that she is going to be a nymph after we get married? Absolutely. Does this mean that we go broadcasting this information and seeking out conversations about sex? No. And that should not be the determining factor in considering a person "uptight". Their is a lot of purity in humility and focusing conversations on the ways of the Lord.

And one last thought. To say that french kissing is oral sex is one of the most ignorant and stupid things I have ever read.

[middletree]

Why are we talking about people in general? We should only be concerned with the actions of those inside the church.


thank you thank you thank you


To say that french kissing is oral sex is one of the most ignorant and stupid things I have ever read.

Agreed.

[Jesuslove]

Do I get the feeling that she is going to be a nymph after we get married? Absolutely. Does this mean that we go broadcasting this information and seeking out conversations about sex? No.

Umm... posting on Third Day board is kinda like broadcasting. Just sayin'.

[mcgreen311]

No, what I'm saying is this.. If you love someone that much, you'd take care of yourself. (I mean you in the general sense, not you specifically). Why give someone a crappy fat body, when with exercise, diet, and maintenance, you could give them a body that would inspire, enrich, and seduce them.

Looks aren't the complete package; but why have a broken down big package, when you could have a nice lean package to offer.

Again, if you love yourself, you will take care of your body. If you don't love yourself, how can you expect others to love you?

So instead of considering why the person might not be taking care of themselves, besides being "lazy and pathetic" (I know these are E's words, not yours), it's ok to abandon them?

I think there is way too much emphasis on the physical here. Granted, this is a thread about porn and physical attractiveness is definitely a feature in general, but it is not the only thing. I'm really starting to see the major objectification of people in this thread. I would really prefer my SO to be inspired by more than my body.

[Evanescence]

Why are we talking about people in general? We should only be concerned with the actions of those inside the church. To say that christians are uptight about sex because they don't like to talk about it is such an ignorant thing to say. My girlfriend is one the most prudish and uptight girls I have ever met. Have we talked about sex? Yes. Do I get the feeling that she is going to be a nymph after we get married? Absolutely. Does this mean that we go broadcasting this information and seeking out conversations about sex? No. And that should not be the determining factor in considering a person "uptight". Their is a lot of purity in humility and focusing conversations on the ways of the Lord.

And one last thought. To say that french kissing is oral sex is one of the most ignorant and stupid things I have ever read.

Most people who are prudish and uptight will continue to be that way..whcih is fine...but can also lead to problems. No, not all...but many. I have seen this as a common theme...as well as the opposite.

When someone has to buy a book labeled "guide to Christian sex"....they have series issues. Why is it so wrong to think that's kooky?

My French kissing analogy is just that...an extreme one, but if you really think about it...it IS oral sex. Is it arousing? Yes. Would you allow your wife to kiss another man like this? Nope. By the definition most Chrisitians go by....
if they hold to it..which they wont most times....a couple should only hold hands before marriage. Anything else is impure.

Its like the kids that were on some talk show braging and puffing about being virgins. Till someone stood up and askd them about self- pleasure....then they all said that was fine....

OK...whatever...

[Evanescence]

So instead of considering why the person might not be taking care of themselves, besides being "lazy and pathetic" (I know these are E's words, not yours), it's ok to abandon them?

I think there is way too much emphasis on the physical here. Granted, this is a thread about porn and physical attractiveness is definitely a feature in general, but it is not the only thing. I'm really starting to see the major objectification of people in this thread. I would really prefer my SO to be inspired by more than my body.

Having a partner that slacks is the setup....BOTH are at fault if someone strays. Each for their own issue. If it cant be helped..then thats different.

When my wife was pregnant, I was too tired to care about having my feet/back rubbed or even sex. She was in NO shape to do anything but waddle and go to work. The pregnancy was the priority. Now, our child is...but yet so is our relationship.

But when people slack or dont care due to self-fish stubborness....patheticne ss....thats different. Talk it over, communicate and try to work on it. But dont be surprised if you lose your spouse if you wont fix the problem. Sin or not...it happens..and will be partially your fault.

[Evanescence]

Why do you assume every guy is a sex crazed nut? Some people actually detest their sin.

Some are bron with a high sex drive...some with none. If you have none..and have issues...best stay UN-married. And especially dont BS anyone into marriage..then put them thru hell with your funk. Life's too dang short for dealing with kooks who lie to get into a relationship...

[Jesuslove]

So instead of considering why the person might not be taking care of themselves, besides being "lazy and pathetic" (I know these are E's words, not yours), it's ok to abandon them?

I think there is way too much emphasis on the physical here. Granted, this is a thread about porn and physical attractiveness is definitely a feature in general, but it is not the only thing. I'm really starting to see the major objectification of people in this thread. I would really prefer my SO to be inspired by more than my body.

Obviously looks aren't the whole package. And I don't think all fat people are lazy and pathetic.... But being fat is a choice for most. It's a sinful lifestyle. It is not good modeling. It's not being the best we can be.

Why would someone get involved with a person who doesn't love God enough to take care of the physical body God gave them. You know several countries and some American states won't let obese people adopt children, because they feel... how can a fat person take care of a child, if they can't take care of themselves.

And to repeat what I said before....How can an obese person love you, when they don't love themselves enough to take care of their body.

[Evanescence]

Obviously looks aren't the whole package. And I don't think all fat people are lazy and pathetic.... But being fat is a choice for most. It's a sinful lifestyle. It is not good modeling. It's not being the best we can be.

Why would someone get involved with a person who doesn't love God enough to take care of the physical body God gave them. You know several countries and some American states won't let obese people adopt children, because they feel... how can a fat person take care of a child, if they can't take care of themselves.

And to repeat what I said before....How can an obese person love you, when they don't love themselves enough to take care of their body.

JL, i think thats a bit extreme....but I can see your point.

I have been in groups of people and had a really hot girl trying to get all the attention...by being rude and stuffy. I enjoyed the company of the cute girl next door type...who was nice and not a jerk.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Umm... posting on Third Day board is kinda like broadcasting. Just sayin'.

Is it? You, nor anyone here, would know me if you sat next to me on the subway or bus.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Most people who are prudish and uptight will continue to be that way..whcih is fine...but can also lead to problems. No, not all...but many. I have seen this as a common theme...as well as the opposite.

When someone has to buy a book labeled "guide to Christian sex"....they have series issues. Why is it so wrong to think that's kooky?

My French kissing analogy is just that...an extreme one, but if you really think about it...it IS oral sex. Is it arousing? Yes. Would you allow your wife to kiss another man like this? Nope. By the definition most Chrisitians go by....
if they hold to it..which they wont most times....a couple should only hold hands before marriage. Anything else is impure.

Its like the kids that were on some talk show braging and puffing about being virgins. Till someone stood up and askd them about self- pleasure....then they all said that was fine....

OK...whatever...

So if by your own definition here, that arousal is sex, then that would indeed make you a pedophile per your previous example of being aroused by a child on your lap.

This thread is so beyond comprehension. And your conclusions and analogies is some of the most ignorant BS I have ever read. You constantly make generalizations about "some" people and build an argument off of the negative you see in hillbilly town Pennsylvania. Kissing isn't sex. Masturbation is not sex. Do you even know what sex is? The fact that you had to learn about it from porn tells me that you have no idea.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Obviously looks aren't the whole package. And I don't think all fat people are lazy and pathetic.... But being fat is a choice for most. It's a sinful lifestyle. It is not good modeling. It's not being the best we can be.

Why would someone get involved with a person who doesn't love God enough to take care of the physical body God gave them. You know several countries and some American states won't let obese people adopt children, because they feel... how can a fat person take care of a child, if they can't take care of themselves.

And to repeat what I said before....How can an obese person love you, when they don't love themselves enough to take care of their body.
I once had a pastor tell me that I was less of a christian because I wore jeans and t-shirts and didnt cut my hair. By his rationale, I should give God my best in all I do and that includes the way I dress. Your post reeks of the same unbiblical arrogance.
I bet if the fat person was a homosexual, you wouldn't question their love for others.

[Jesuslove]

I once had a pastor tell me that I was less of a christian because I wore jeans and t-shirts and didnt cut my hair. By his rationale, I should give God my best in all I do and that includes the way I dress. Your post reeks of the same unbiblical arrogance.
I bet if the fat person was a homosexual, you wouldn't question their love for others.

LOL. I never said I didn't like fat people. Whether you marrry a fat person or a thin person is your business. However, the Bible does speak about gluttony. I just think the obese lack self-discipline and self-respect...gay or straight.

[onesawthelight]

Obviously looks aren't the whole package. And I don't think all fat people are lazy and pathetic.... But being fat is a choice for most. It's a sinful lifestyle. It is not good modeling. It's not being the best we can be.

Why would someone get involved with a person who doesn't love God enough to take care of the physical body God gave them. You know several countries and some American states won't let obese people adopt children, because they feel... how can a fat person take care of a child, if they can't take care of themselves.

And to repeat what I said before....How can an obese person love you, when they don't love themselves enough to take care of their body.

I think this is a little extreme. Being overwheight is more often not a choice then you think. I'm willing to bet that there are ways you fail to be your best as well. We all fail in this way...not just people who are overweight. *Being fat is sinful*...are you serious? How do you know what is going on with that person? What kind of stress they are under...eating for some is a coping mechanism, shopping and gambling is for others...or how about drinking? I think this smacks of being way to judgemental. I know people who have struggled with this issue repeatedly...and failed. Not everyone has an I don't care attitude about their weight. If you view people through this lens....then you can easily find fault with anyone because we all fail in some way. I struggled for years with drinking...so I was not the best I could be...sorry but this in no way means I was not a worthwhile person. I am very happy my girfriend does not view me or others in this way. After all....do you have it all together? I rather doubt it. I don't mean that as an attack on you...I'm just saying...who of us is perfect? You might want to look in the mirrior before making blanket statements like that.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

You see, you seem to think that everyone has your belief or SHOULD have your belief. Some people are more liberal than others...not worried about some things like some Christians are. I'm not talking about ME...but people in general.

Of course some people are more liberal - that's exactly the problem. It began in the Garden; man decided to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We wanted to decide what was right and what was wrong ourselves. And look how well that turned out.

You also seem to think i am advocating the use of pron or defending it. I merely brought up a topic...a senssitive one...and thats all. there's no argument...I have no real stance either way to show. I dont deal in absolutes or black/white issues.

You say you have no view either way and that you don't advocate porn.......... and yet you say this:

If my wife wanted to buy/rent a specific porn video to learn how to treat me better in bed...I'd give her my credit card....no problem..

Care to explain?

And I am certianly not discussing marriage with someone who has never been married.....sorry, but I'm not. Its a topic...not a committe meeting.

Neither was the Apostle Paul; what's your point?

[Musicdude]

Why are we talking about people in general? We should only be concerned with the actions of those inside the church. To say that christians are uptight about sex because they don't like to talk about it is such an ignorant thing to say. My girlfriend is one the most prudish and uptight girls I have ever met. Have we talked about sex? Yes. Do I get the feeling that she is going to be a nymph after we get married? Absolutely. Does this mean that we go broadcasting this information and seeking out conversations about sex? No. And that should not be the determining factor in considering a person "uptight". Their is a lot of purity in humility and focusing conversations on the ways of the Lord.

And one last thought. To say that french kissing is oral sex is one of the most ignorant and stupid things I have ever read.

Twice in one week I've completely agreed with you. Scary.

[Musicdude]

LOL. I never said I didn't like fat people. Whether you marrry a fat person or a thin person is your business. However, the Bible does speak about gluttony. I just think the obese lack self-discipline and self-respect...gay or straight.

The bible speaks about a lot of things. But it's funny how we always get on our high horse about those particular sins that aren't a problem for us personally.

[Jesuslove]

The bible speaks about a lot of things. But it's funny how we always get on our high horse about those particular sins that aren't a problem for us personally.

I apologize if I struck a nerve.

[Jesuslove]

I think this is a little extreme. Being overwheight is more often not a choice then you think. I'm willing to bet that there are ways you fail to be your best as well. We all fail in this way...not just people who are overweight. *Being fat is sinful*...are you serious? How do you know what is going on with that person? What kind of stress they are under...eating for some is a coping mechanism, shopping and gambling is for others...or how about drinking? I think this smacks of being way to judgemental. I know people who have struggled with this issue repeatedly...and failed. Not everyone has an I don't care attitude about their weight. If you view people through this lens....then you can easily find fault with anyone because we all fail in some way. I struggled for years with drinking...so I was not the best I could be...sorry but this in no way means I was not a worthwhile person. I am very happy my girfriend does not view me or others in this way. After all....do you have it all together? I rather doubt it. I don't mean that as an attack on you...I'm just saying...who of us is perfect? You might want to look in the mirrior before making blanket statements like that.

I never said I was perfect. I just said food can be an addiction like alcohol or anything else. Overeating and being unhealthy is not what God intends for us... When we overeat, we are not the best (healthiest) we can be. We all have issues and struggles. It's how we handle those issues which defines us as people.

[middletree]

I never said I was perfect. I just said food can be an addiction like alcohol or anything else. Overeating and being unhealthy is not what God intends for us... When we overeat, we are not the best (healthiest) we can be. We all have issues and struggles. It's how we handle those issues which defines us as people.

I'll back you up on this one, and even said as much earlier in this thread. It prompted E to ask me if I weigh 400 lbs, which means he missed the point entirely, and that is not unusual.

There is a verse in the NT where Paul says some have made their stomachs as gods. I believe this is saying that some are addicted to food and it's just as destructive spiritually as porn is. As you mention, it's also destructive physically.

And for the record, I am not obese, and at age 44, can probably outrun many people who are reading this.

[mat1583]

And for the record, I am not obese, and at age 44, can probably outrun many people who are reading this.

This 26 year-old triathlete is always up for a challenge! :) But I'm warning you, this is what you'll be up against: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=41571311&l=f7616518a4&id=7004950

[Musicdude]

I apologize if I struck a nerve.

It's got nothing to do with that.
I am not so arrogant to not admit I have sins in my life. In my bible it says that confession brings healing.

For anyone who doesn't know I am about 30lbs overweight. And I am trying to lose it. I agree that it's a sin, and I've confessed it before.

I am not being self-righteous about my sins, and judging others as you are.
I've admitted to being hooked on porn for a long time also. There's probably other sins I've admitted to in the last however many years I've been on these forums.

But just like the preacher who gets up on the pulpit and rails on about pornography and lust, and then goes home to be verbally abusive to his wife. You are putting yourself on a very high horse, and when (not if) you fall, it's going to hurt badly.

[Jesuslove]

I'll back you up on this one, and even said as much earlier in this thread. It prompted E to ask me if I weigh 400 lbs, which means he missed the point entirely, and that is not unusual.

There is a verse in the NT where Paul says some have made their stomachs as gods. I believe this is saying that some are addicted to food and it's just as destructive spiritually as porn is. As you mention, it's also destructive physically.

And for the record, I am not obese, and at age 44, can probably outrun many people who are reading this.

This 26 year-old triathlete is always up for a challenge! :) But I'm warning you, this is what you'll be up against: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=41571311&l=f7616518a4&id=7004950

I also exercise regularly, eat right, etc. I am in good shape, but for me, it requires a lot of work... a lot! If I didn't exercise regularly, I'd be the size of a house. I exercise for God and my family. Keeping myself healthy will increase my chances of being able to care for my family for a longer period of time.

[Musicdude]

I'll back you up on this one, and even said as much earlier in this thread. It prompted E to ask me if I weigh 400 lbs, which means he missed the point entirely, and that is not unusual.

There is a verse in the NT where Paul says some have made their stomachs as gods. I believe this is saying that some are addicted to food and it's just as destructive spiritually as porn is. As you mention, it's also destructive physically.

And for the record, I am not obese, and at age 44, can probably outrun many people who are reading this.

I agree, which is why I've never had a problem admitting that when I got married I gained about 30 lbs, and I have confessed it and I am trying to lose it.

And I have never been a runner, but I'll challenge anyone here on the weight bench.

[Jesuslove]

It's got nothing to do with that.
I am not so arrogant to not admit I have sins in my life. In my bible it says that confession brings healing.

For anyone who doesn't know I am about 30lbs overweight. And I am trying to lose it. I agree that it's a sin, and I've confessed it before.

I am not being self-righteous about my sins, and judging others as you are.
I've admitted to being hooked on porn for a long time also. There's probably other sins I've admitted to in the last however many years I've been on these forums.

But just like the preacher who gets up on the pulpit and rails on about pornography and lust, and then goes home to be verbally abusive to his wife. You are putting yourself on a very high horse, and when (not if) you fall, it's going to hurt badly.

I'm not judging your sins. I don't know you to judge you.

I'm simply saying being obese is not what God intended for us. That's a general statement and not a personal attack on you. I have issues just like everyone else. I struggle with sin every day, just like everyone else. However, like your example about the preacher, I will not go home and verbally abuse my wife. And I'm not on a high horse. Nowhere did I claim to be morally superior. Can't we debate a topic without the need to label someone as people?

[Musicdude]

I'm not judging your sins. I don't know you to judge you.

I'm simply saying being obese is not what God intended for us. That's a general statement and not a personal attack on you. I have issues just like everyone else. I struggle with sin every day, just like everyone else. However, like your example about the preacher, I will not go home and verbally abuse my wife. And I'm not on a high horse. Nowhere did I claim to be morally superior. Can't we debate a topic without the need to label someone as people?

Oh forget it. You aren't listening anyway.

[Grank]

gluttony + sloth = fat

fat =\= gluttony + sloth

[Evanescence]

Hook line and sinker...

if you're gonna split hairs, preach and play goodie goodie with the world..best be ready to ask some tough questions. You cant have it both ways...you can't preach about one thing, yet do another.

This is a common theme...and thats why I ask the tough questions I do.

YOU have to decide what you feel is sex, immoral, impure etc etc. The Bible IS NOT clear on many of these things. Thats why the church is often so divided, not united.

Aussie says its a problem that we've become more liberal. Well, in some circles I have been in...we'd ALL be labeled as inheritors of hellfire....ALL of us. Who again decides what is liberal, conservative...immoral or pure/impure. MD will say God....and thats true, but the Bible isnt specific about that stuff.

I dont live my life with absolutes, paranoid feelings and constantly walking on egg shells. God has given me the common sense to know potential or clear destructive things..and I am mindful of them..as well as my thoughts and strong points. But I dont do absolutes...and if you want to, then be my guest.

Wolfie, I didnt turn to porn to learn about sex...that was a small benefit of dabbling in it 20 yrs ago. My wife thinks it was well worth it... :P

[onesawthelight]

I never said I was perfect. I just said food can be an addiction like alcohol or anything else. Overeating and being unhealthy is not what God intends for us... When we overeat, we are not the best (healthiest) we can be. We all have issues and struggles. It's how we handle those issues which defines us as people.

I have no argument with this. It's how you tend to say things that makes you sound very judgemental. We all should take care of ourselves, I agree.
I'm still going to say that some people have a hard time changing things, and we don't always know what is going on. Remember God looks at the heart...good intentions count. I know someone who struggled with weight issues for over 30 years. He has now lost over 225 lbs. and looks like a normal person. You had said why would someone get involved with someone who doesn't love God enough to take care of themselves. Should then this man's wife have left him? That statement of yours was more then a little ignorant. Things like that are what I have a problem with. And just for the record...I don't have a weight problem.

[Evanescence]

It's got nothing to do with that.
I am not so arrogant to not admit I have sins in my life. In my bible it says that confession brings healing.

For anyone who doesn't know I am about 30lbs overweight. And I am trying to lose it. I agree that it's a sin, and I've confessed it before.

I am not being self-righteous about my sins, and judging others as you are.
I've admitted to being hooked on porn for a long time also. There's probably other sins I've admitted to in the last however many years I've been on these forums.

But just like the preacher who gets up on the pulpit and rails on about pornography and lust, and then goes home to be verbally abusive to his wife. You are putting yourself on a very high horse, and when (not if) you fall, it's going to hurt badly.

Thats exactly why people are leaving the church..or not serious. Your weight issue is no big deal..unless you call the kettle black by coming down on someone elses weight...

I can tell you this. i know people..and used to do it myself...that constantly were picking their lives and others apart.."sin pointing" I call it. They're kooks...and often have breakups with marriages, miserable kids and spouses and no friends. I gave up on it long ago....I am mindful...but wont pick myself apart daily "sin pointing."

Butt to each their own... :cool:

[Musicdude]

I have no argument with this. It's how you tend to say things that makes you sound very judgemental. We all should take care of ourselves, I agree.
I'm still going to say that some people have a hard time changing things, and we don't always know what is going on. Remember God looks at the heart...good intentions count. I know someone who struggled with weight issues for over 30 years. He has now lost over 225 lbs. and looks like a normal person. You had said why would someone get involved with someone who doesn't love God enough to take care of themselves. Should then this man's wife have left him? That statement of yours was more then a little ignorant. Things like that are what I have a problem with. And just for the record...I don't have a weight problem.

And it's a very good thing that God didn't have the kind of conditional love toward us, or we would have absolutely no hope of salvation. Because in His eyes, we were all morbidly obese when we came to Him. He loved us in spite of our faults. As the song goes, "He looked beyond my faults and saw my need."

[onesawthelight]

Hook line and sinker...

if you're gonna split hairs, preach and play goodie goodie with the world..best be ready to ask some tough questions. You cant have it both ways...you can't preach about one thing, yet do another.

This is a common theme...and thats why I ask the tough questions I do.

YOU have to decide what you feel is sex, immoral, impure etc etc. The Bible IS NOT clear on many of these things. Thats why the church is often so divided, not united.

Aussie says its a problem that we've become more liberal. Well, in some circles I have been in...we'd ALL be labeled as inheritors of hellfire....ALL of us. Who again decides what is liberal, conservative...immoral or pure/impure. MD will say God....and thats true, but the Bible isnt specific about that stuff.

I dont live my life with absolutes, paranoid feelings and constantly walking on egg shells. God has given me the common sense to know potential or clear destructive things..and I am mindful of them..as well as my thoughts and strong points. But I dont do absolutes...and if you want to, then be my guest.

Wolfie, I didnt turn to porn to learn about sex...that was a small benefit of dabbling in it 20 yrs ago. My wife thinks it was well worth it... :P

The bible seems pretty clear to me. Sex is sex...it is not kissing. Sex belongs within marriage. Porn is never ok....just look at all the damage it has done in our world. For the record...I did in the past see that stuff so I know what it can do. There are no benifits to it. You learned something from it...good for you. You can learn what you need to in the bedroom by being loving and considerate, and by experimentation. Porn is not an educational tool.

[onesawthelight]

And it's a very good thing that God didn't have the kind of conditional love toward us, or we would have absolutely no hope of salvation. Because in His eyes, we were all morbidly obese when we came to Him. He loved us in spite of our faults. As the song goes, "He looked beyond my faults and saw my need."

Exactly.....

[Grank]

so what about the kama sutra? ancient porn or educational device?

why can't something be porn to one person and an educational device to another? we're not all the same ya know

you might not like sacrificed meat, but i think it's delicious and easy on my budget

[mat1583]

As we all know, we are instructed to flee from sexual immorality. One of the most secretive, but destructive forms of this is lust. If you are looking at graphic images and a)long for or imagine doing something with the object of that image or b)act upon the arousal the image stirs, I would consider that lust. And once that engine starts running, it's nearly impossible to stop. God didn't intend for that process to stop, hence why Paul instructed men to get married if they can't control their passion.

I do not believe it is sinful to look at a woman and admire her beauty. God made women a particular way and wired mens' brains so that we would be attracted to them. This does not mean it's always right to act on those attractions (lust, adultery).

God is the one who knows our hearts, and He gives us a conscience so we can hear the Holy Spirit's direction. The problem with graphic images, whether it's porn or a skimpy Victoria's Secret catalog is that a man is putting himself right in the face of temptation. The flesh is weak. Our mind can go from simple admiration to lust in a split second, and it's way too easy...so why even test yourself?

I do not believe looking at things like kama sutra is in itself sinful. But I do believe that if you are aroused by those images and act on them, you are lusting and thus sinning. The same goes with any other graphic image (porn or not). It's one thing to learn how, but it's another to get yourself *ahem* riled up with images of someone else's body so you and your wife can enjoy each other. Your heart is in the wrong place. It should be about melting over your wife's beauty, not another woman's.

[Evanescence]

If you have abeating heart and air in your lungs...you will get aroused at just about anything.

For the record..I am selling my bed and blankets....

..and giving up sleep....

This morning I awoke....well, you know....and it was all from my warm bed and blankets...and sleep. Time to give that stuff up...:D

[Evanescence]

The bible seems pretty clear to me. Sex is sex...it is not kissing. Sex belongs within marriage. Porn is never ok....just look at all the damage it has done in our world. For the record...I did in the past see that stuff so I know what it can do. There are no benifits to it. You learned something from it...good for you. You can learn what you need to in the bedroom by being loving and considerate, and by experimentation. Porn is not an educational tool.

OK...so let me ask you. If you have a wife or girlfriend....assuming you're a guy...lol....can she kiss other men? Not pecks mind you....passionate, soul kissing?

How about your daughter? Is it OK if she has kissing parties? Bring over lots of boys...heck, grown men...and take turns kissing them?

How about girls kissing girls? Harmless? Not sexual?

[mat1583]

If you have abeating heart and air in your lungs...you will get aroused at just about anything.

For the record..I am selling my bed and blankets....

..and giving up sleep....

This morning I awoke....well, you know....and it was all from my warm bed and blankets...and sleep. Time to give that stuff up...:D

If this is in reply to my post, you need to re-read the post carefully. Arousal in itself is a physiological response to stimuli and not sinful. Although it is not sinful, there are many instances in which it should be controlled since it can lead to sin. Example: Seeing another woman's body except for your wife's and being aroused by it. While this may be a natural, physiological response, wouldn't you rather have no response to other females and only have a strong response to your wife since it's so easy to begin lusting? It's like a recovering crack addict going back to the place they use to shoot up. They have a physiological response to going back to that place which triggers chemical responses in their brain, which causes them to crave the crack again. This could easily lead to a relapse, so they are taught to completely avoid those places at all costs - to FLEE. In the same way, if we are to FLEE sexual immorality, then it is not prudent to be in the presence of stimuli that will kick those physiological responses into gear. It's one of the reasons I've completely ditched the TV for the past 5 months and plan to do so for at least the first 3 months of my marriage with Whitney (in February).

[Evanescence]

If this is in reply to my post, you need to re-read the post carefully. Arousal in itself is a physiological response to stimuli and not sinful. Although it is not sinful, there are many instances in which it should be controlled since it can lead to sin. Example: Seeing another woman's body except for your wife's and being aroused by it. While this may be a natural, physiological response, wouldn't you rather have no response to other females and only have a strong response to your wife since it's so easy to begin lusting? It's like a recovering crack addict going back to the place they use to shoot up. They have a physiological response to going back to that place which triggers chemical responses in their brain, which causes them to crave the crack again. This could easily lead to a relapse, so they are taught to completely avoid those places at all costs - to FLEE. In the same way, if we are to FLEE sexual immorality, then it is not prudent to be in the presence of stimuli that will kick those physiological responses into gear. It's one of the reasons I've completely ditched the TV for the past 5 months and plan to do so for at least the first 3 months of my marriage with Whitney (in February).

Good post...

No, it was in response to general arousal talk...

Dit5ching the TV is good overall.. :P

[Howlin' Wolf]

OK...so let me ask you. If you have a wife or girlfriend....assuming you're a guy...lol....can she kiss other men? Not pecks mind you....passionate, soul kissing?

How about your daughter? Is it OK if she has kissing parties? Bring over lots of boys...heck, grown men...and take turns kissing them?

How about girls kissing girls? Harmless? Not sexual?

What point are you trying to make? kissing is not sex. pornography is not ok.
It sounds to me that you're trying to justify something that both common sense and the holy spirit will tell you is wrong.

[Evanescence]

What point are you trying to make? kissing is not sex. pornography is not ok.
It sounds to me that you're trying to justify something that both common sense and the holy spirit will tell you is wrong.

Simple question: Can your girlfriend kiss other girls? Your friends? me?

If its not sex...what is it?

If its just nothing...then can anyone do it to whomever?

[Valpo]

E: NO. One man/one woman Genesis 1&2, enough with the ridiculous games here.

This ought to put to rest the question of whether or not pornography is sinful

Anyone recall this name? Ted Bundy?

http://www.pureintimacy.org/piArticles/A000000433.cfm

[Howlin' Wolf]

Simple question: Can your girlfriend kiss other girls? Your friends? me?

If its not sex...what is it?

If its just nothing...then can anyone do it to whomever?

So sex is the only thing in your mind that is considered cheating? Are you retarded?

[cheewiee]

So sex is the only thing in your mind that is considered cheating? Are you retarded?

Your arguing with a guy with an aluminum hat on his head in his Avatar?

[Evanescence]

Still no real answers....just like I thought....

[Evanescence]

So sex is the only thing in your mind that is considered cheating? Are you retarded?

Then what is it? Define it?

I ain't kissing you..thats for sure...

[Howlin' Wolf]

Still no real answers....just like I thought....

No real answers because you're loaded question has nothing to do with pornography or arousal or any other sin you're trying to justify while at the same time, attempting to make christians look like "bible worshiping kooks", which will only further justify in your mind your own personal disregard for the bible as authoritative in the of the church.

But i'll play your little game anyways.

Yes, I would be upset if my girlfriend french kissed another guy. Now tell me what this has to do with watching a gang bang on film.

[Evanescence]

E: NO. One man/one woman Genesis 1&2, enough with the ridiculous games here.

This ought to put to rest the question of whether or not pornography is sinful

Anyone recall this name? Ted Bundy?

http://www.pureintimacy.org/piArticles/A000000433.cfm

Please...that's the best you got?

Thats like the PETA people telling us that hunters teach kids to kill...and that starts them off on killing sprees..and an addiction to kill.

I never said Porn was right...and said it was destructive...I also said it COULD be useful, despite its shortfalls. That it COULD save a marriage...

The peopel that say soemthing is ALL bad are like the gun control people who say guns kill. People only fool with pron when they arent satisfied at homke or have self-control issues. The same could be said about religious fanatics, work-aholics, over eaters etc etc...

[Valpo]

No real answers? God instituted sex to be in the context of marriage between one man and one woman, hello?

[Evanescence]

No real answers? God instituted sex to be in the context of marriage between one man and one woman, hello?

Yeah...and? Did I say anything different? Did anyone?

Answer the question. If kissing isnt sex...then what is it..and to what extent can people partake in it?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Then what is it? Define it?

I ain't kissing you..thats for sure...

The definition of sex is the grouping of individuals, distinguished as make or female, based on their reproductive organs and structure.

Sexual Intercourse is the use of these organs, involving, but not limited to, the penetration of the the penis into the vagina, anus, or mouth.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Please...that's the best you got?

Thats like the PETA people telling us that hunters teach kids to kill...and that starts them off on killing sprees..and an addiction to kill.

I never said Porn was right...and said it was destructive...I also said it COULD be useful, despite its shortfalls. That it COULD save a marriage...

The peopel that say soemthing is ALL bad are like the gun control people who say guns kill. People only fool with pron when they arent satisfied at homke or have self-control issues. The same could be said about religious fanatics, work-aholics, over eaters etc etc...

So watching 5 guys bang a chic is useful?

[Evanescence]

You guys realize there used to be sodomy laws...as well as other absurd sexuality laws here in the US. Such as it was against the law to transport a sex toy across state lines in GA or AL?

I have heard so many people on here say: "Anything is fine as long as its within the context of the marriage..."

Toys and porn?

[Evanescence]

So watching 5 guys bang a chic is useful?

To me its not...

How would you know of such a thing?

[Howlin' Wolf]

You guys realize there used to be sodomy laws...as well as other absurd sexuality laws here in the US. Such as it was against the law to transport a sex toy across state lines in GA or AL?

I have heard so many people on here say: "Anything is fine as long as its within the context of the marriage..."

Toys and porn?

This thread isn't about absurd sexuality laws.

[Evanescence]

The definition of sex is the grouping of individuals, distinguished as make or female, based on their reproductive organs and structure.

Sexual Intercourse is the use of these organs, involving, but not limited to, the penetration of the the penis into the vagina, anus, or mouth.

OK...so kissing isnt sex...to some people. But its a VERY intimate thing, correct?

Can it be arousing? Yes...

So, if its arousing...it can then lead to lustful thoughts. Sin.

So...no kissing....not even a peck...

[Howlin' Wolf]

To me its not...

How would you know of such a thing?

You just said it was useful. Now you backtrack. Your question was answered. So what loophole are you going to try and find now?

[Evanescence]

This thread isn't about absurd sexuality laws.


No, but it shows the insane uptightness about sex...most brought on by the western church...thats insanely uptight about sex. And can't even agree on defining it.

[Howlin' Wolf]

OK...so kissing isnt sex...to some people. But its a VERY intimate thing, correct?

Can it be arousing? Yes...

So, if its arousing...it can then lead to lustful thoughts. Sin.

So...no kissing....not even a peck...

You are the only one that has said that kissing is sex. I do not know who these "some people" are that you refer to in every thread and have never met anyone that would even allude to kissing being sexual, until now.

E, you sound just like these talking heads that say that video games lead to violence.

[Evanescence]

You just said it was useful. Now you backtrack. Your question was answered. So what loophole are you going to try and find now?


No...I said it COULD be useful. is all porn like you described? I dont watch it...but when i did..there was a variety. The beginning of the thread was about how the pron industry is becoming more "lady" friendly and making porn for women...that women and couples would like.

If THAT can help a person or marriage...fine. All i am saying is that to me..its not a B/W issue...of all wrong. Yes...its probably 90% destructive....

But then again...are parents teaching their kids of its dangers? keeping it from them? Are husbands and wives treating their spouses right..so they wont look for porn?

Its not a live animal coming for you...YOU seek it out. And why?

[Evanescence]

You are the only one that has said that kissing is sex. I do not know who these "some people" are that you refer to in every thread and have never met anyone that would even allude to kissing being sexual, until now.

E, you sound just like these talking heads that say that video games lead to violence.

They do and can...its as bad as Porn or WWE. What does it teach?

My kids wont do video games...or WWE...or porn. Once they're 18..they can do it if they want....but not in my house.

I said kissing was sex as a joke/setup....because people think its harmless. Its a gateway activity....

[Evanescence]

My buddy lets his 10 and 6 yr old watch HORROR movies...he loves them...has a big collection of horror movies. He thinks its no big deal...

His kids are obsessed with scaring each other and monsters. I asked him if he'd let them watch porn......he said that'd be immoral. I said; watching people butcher one another isnt?

Mindset...

Uh..oh...gotta run. Victoria's secret catalog just came in....

[Howlin' Wolf]

No...I said it COULD be useful. is all porn like you described? I dont watch it...but when i did..there was a variety. The beginning of the thread was about how the pron industry is becoming more "lady" friendly and making porn for women...that women and couples would like.

If THAT can help a person or marriage...fine. All i am saying is that to me..its not a B/W issue...of all wrong. Yes...its probably 90% destructive....

But then again...are parents teaching their kids of its dangers? keeping it from them? Are husbands and wives treating their spouses right..so they wont look for porn?

Its not a live animal coming for you...YOU seek it out. And why?

All porn is meant to objectify a woman. To turn her into an object. I have been with many many many women from all different backgrounds. I have watched countless hours of porn. Never have I been with a woman that appreciated a cum shot to the face, yet almost every porn clip ends with a woman begging for a cum shot to the face.

And because of this blatant objectification that is displayed and which I willfully watched, I have these images in my head that compete for the mind of Christ. I have to work harder to mortify this sin than the person that never watched a porn flick. So 100% of the time it is destructive. PERIOD.

As far as parents teaching their kids, how do you know what parents teach their kids? I knew guys in college that had never seen a porno and were disgusted when I put one on.

One can look at the divorce rate and see that marriages are failing. Porn doesnt save a marriage. Sin does not save a marriage. Communication and love are the only things that save a marriage. Do you justify the unhappy husband who pays a hooker for a blowie because his wife won't give him one? Is it the wife's fault that her husband has no self-control?

[Howlin' Wolf]

My buddy lets his 10 and 6 yr old watch HORROR movies...he loves them...has a big collection of horror movies. He thinks its no big deal...

His kids are obsessed with scaringe ahc other and monsters. I asked him if he'd let them watch porn......he said that'd be immoral. I said; watching people butcher one another isnt?

Mindset...

Uh..oh...gotta run. Victoria's secret catalog just came in....

Do you let your kids read the bible? Lot of murder in the bible.

Don't teach me about moderation or responsibility. Just give me a shot of grape juice.

[mcgreen311]

They do and can...its as bad as Porn or WWE. What does it teach?

My kids wont do video games...or WWE...or porn. Once they're 18..they can do it if they want....but not in my house.

I said kissing was sex as a joke/setup....because people think its harmless. Its a gateway activity....

I am so confused. What's the point of this thread anyway? So you're just (badly) playing devil's advocate here then?

I don't want to get into more of the analogy game, because I don't think it gets us anywhere. However, if kissing your SO is a "gateway drug," how in the world is porn not? You say the kissing thing is a joke, but you've made that statement before. I really have no idea where you stand on actions that are not permissible outside of marriage because you are all over the place. Kissing is sex, so kissing your non-spouse would be premarital sex which would then be unscriptural. In general I don't like to ask personal questions, but I think it's relevant: Did you kiss your wife before you got married?

I think what should settle this is that porn involves other people in the marital relationship. They might not be aware of it, but they are now involved. Additionally, you have now become involved in their relationship by watching.

[mcgreen311]

My buddy lets his 10 and 6 yr old watch HORROR movies...he loves them...has a big collection of horror movies. He thinks its no big deal...

His kids are obsessed with scaringe ahc other and monsters. I asked him if he'd let them watch porn......he said that'd be immoral. I said; watching people butcher one another isnt?

Mindset...

Uh..oh...gotta run. Victoria's secret catalog just came in....

Is there a reason you keep shifting the goal posts in this discussion?

[Evanescence]

All porn is meant to objectify a woman. To turn her into an object. I have been with many many many women from all different backgrounds. I have watched countless hours of porn. Never have I been with a woman that appreciated a cum shot to the face, yet almost every porn clip ends with a woman begging for a cum shot to the face.

And because of this blatant objectification that is displayed and which I willfully watched, I have these images in my head that compete for the mind of Christ. I have to work harder to mortify this sin than the person that never watched a porn flick. So 100% of the time it is destructive. PERIOD.

As far as parents teaching their kids, how do you know what parents teach their kids? I knew guys in college that had never seen a porno and were disgusted when I put one on.

One can look at the divorce rate and see that marriages are failing. Porn doesnt save a marriage. Sin does not save a marriage. Communication and love are the only things that save a marriage. Do you justify the unhappy husband who pays a hooker for a blowie because his wife won't give him one? Is it the wife's fault that her husband has no self-control?

I dont think ALL porn objectifies women...probably 90% does...

Porn is mostly fake sex...thats why it did nothing for me.

You make valid points...but as I said, 90% bad, maybe 10% good.

How many kids have free access to whatever they want? A lot...its a BIG problem today. My ex-wifes brother discovered porn at age 15...neighbor kid brought it down. He was hooked. As of 4 yrs ago..he was a worthless bum prolly still addicted. Yep...destructive.

Romance novels OK? How many women/people dabble with them...then leave their hubby for another "romantic" man...like in their books?

If a man cheats with a hooker becuase his wife is lazy and pathetic....they're BOTH at fault. There's no excuse for either...BUT..the man is more at fault.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I dont think ALL porn objectifies women...probably 90% does...

Porn is mostly fake sex...thats why it did nothing for me.

You make valid points...but as I said, 90% bad, maybe 10% good.

How many kids have free access to whatever they want? A lot...its a BIG problem today. My ex-wifes brother discovered porn at age 15...neighbor kid brought it down. He was hooked. As of 4 yrs ago..he was a worthless bum prolly still addicted. Yep...destructive.

Romance novels OK? How many women/people dabble with them...then leave their hubby for another "romantic" man...like in their books?

If a man cheats with a hooker becuase his wife is lazy and pathetic....they're BOTH at fault. There's no excuse for either...BUT..the man is more at fault.

Please explain to me the inner workings of a "good" porn scene.

You seem to have a problem with the fact the people are responsible for their actions. You seem to want to shift blame to other things.

[Evanescence]

I am so confused. What's the point of this thread anyway? So you're just (badly) playing devil's advocate here then?

I don't want to get into more of the analogy game, because I don't think it gets us anywhere. However, if kissing your SO is a "gateway drug," how in the world is porn not? You say the kissing thing is a joke, but you've made that statement before. I really have no idea where you stand on actions that are not permissible outside of marriage because you are all over the place. Kissing is sex, so kissing your non-spouse would be premarital sex which would then be unscriptural. In general I don't like to ask personal questions, but I think it's relevant: Did you kiss your wife before you got married?

I think what should settle this is that porn involves other people in the marital relationship. They might not be aware of it, but they are now involved. Additionally, you have now become involved in their relationship by watching.


I asked a few tough questions....a few brave souls answered. The rest are rpobably bowing at chruch praying for me thinking I am a porn addict who is justifying it...

Yep...kissed my wife and we had sex before marriage. Both of us agreed if we loved eash other..we'd take that step. Both wanted to make sure we were compatable...and werent hubng up about it. When we got engaged...we took a vow of celebacy...including no porn...till we married 8 months later.

I still looked...and thought of her..and took care of "myself". I have no problem with self-pleasure. Either way....IMO...we're all gonna sin when it comes to sex. We either did it...wanna do it...or will do it. There are things that can be done to curb such sins...but dont BS us or anyone else. People have been honest here...and thats cool. I am too.

I just do not see things so B/W...and think most people who brag about "being virgins" are posers and phonys...because they're doing SOMETHING....

It just happens...and I aint denying it. Watching porn? Why? Do soemthing about your problem...

[Valpo]

Porn is NEVER useful. Not just 90% but all 100% of porn is sinful, period.

If you watch porn it isn't for the cinematography, E.

Single guys who watch porn are lusting, breaking the 6th commandment, etc., and married guys who watch porn do the same. Sex is for two people, man and woman, in the context of marriage. Porn is outside of that context. Porn is never useful, what on earth is that argument? Useful for what? Getting off? Well what is that? It's masturbation, that's why porn exists. Masturbation is a sin. Christians are not prudes nor is our God, read Song of Solomon. But any time sex is spoken of it is in the context of marriage between ONE man and ONE woman.

When God gets angriest with Israel it is when she whores after false gods. Israel is God's bride. St. Paul gets most intense/angriest when the churches he planted start whoring after other gods because the Church is God's bride. This is a very relevant topic. Sex is for marriage and porn is outside of that context. You show a serious lack of knowledge of the Bible when you say these things. So it is quite deceiving that you waltz around here like some sort of expert with vast experience. It doesn't help new Christians or the little ones and may very well cause them to stumble as they hunt the web for this ten percent of "useful porn" to further their walk with Jesus. Enough.

[Evanescence]

Please explain to me the inner workings of a "good" porn scene.

You seem to have a problem with the fact the people are responsible for their actions. You seem to want to shift blame to other things.


I'm not a porn conesuer...so i dont know. How about a scene where a married couple have passionate sex after the husband has been away. The wife goes to great lengths to prepare her body and home for his return...the result is the house being brought down by their passion.

Some people may not get it...books and websites on "good sex habits" or..."Guide to Christian sex" dont work. So, they learn by watching...

If it helps or saves their marriage...great. Same with the man who discovers his wifes G-spot for the first time...the very spot SHE doesnt even know exists...

[mcgreen311]

I asked a few tough questions....a few brave souls answered. The rest are rpobably bowing at chruch praying for me thinking I am a porn addict who is justifying it...

Yep...kissed my wife and we had sex before marriage. Both of us agreed if we loved eash other..we'd take that step. Both wanted to make sure we were compatable...and werent hubng up about it. When we got engaged...we took a vow of celebacy...including no porn...till we married 8 months later.

I still looked...and thought of her..and took care of "myself". I have no problem with self-pleasure. Either way....IMO...we're all gonna sin when it comes to sex. We either did it...wanna do it...or will do it. There are things that can be done to curb such sins...but dont BS us or anyone else. People have been honest here...and thats cool. I am too.

I just do not see things so B/W...and think most people who brag about "being virgins" are posers and phonys...because they're doing SOMETHING....

It just happens...and I aint denying it. Watching porn? Why? Do soemthing about your problem...

I see two problems with this:

1. Your argument is not scriptural, and being on a message board where people are united in Christianity makes that a problem.
2. You are seeming to justify this non-scriptural viewpoint using some secret knowledge you claim regarding the inner workings of everyone's sex life. Not everyone is "doing something."

Generalizations count for very little in an argument. Cites and specifics are very much appreciated.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

No real answers because you're loaded question has nothing to do with pornography or arousal or any other sin you're trying to justify while at the same time, attempting to make christians look like "bible worshiping kooks", which will only further justify in your mind your own personal disregard for the bible as authoritative in the of the church.


Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Thank goodness someone said it! Man loves darkness instead of the light because their deeds are evil. Stop looking to justify sin.

Quite simply, E, anyone who claims that porn has benefits and is 10% good is simply looking to justify their sin. I have challenged you to argue your point from a Biblical perspective, however, as is always the case, your argument is from the 'wisdom' of man. I haven't seen one single verse to support your claims - nor do I expect to; just more absurd crap about how porn can save marriages.

Let me finish by asking you a question, E. Can you honestly say that Jesus would have taught his disciples (or even the Apostle Paul written) that pornography is beneficial to a person or a couple?

[Evanescence]

I know one thing..I am ADDICTED to arguing with virgins and unmarried men who may not have ever even kissed a girl and who would chit their pants with a real woman.

Watch what you want....pleae or dont please your wife....do whatever....

I just asked some questions....people responded...so did I. Thats it...

I'm done here...spent too much time already arguing over nothing, nonesense. I need my head examined...I have work to do...

[Howlin' Wolf]

I asked a few tough questions....a few brave souls answered. The rest are rpobably bowing at chruch praying for me thinking I am a porn addict who is justifying it...

Yep...kissed my wife and we had sex before marriage. Both of us agreed if we loved eash other..we'd take that step. Both wanted to make sure we were compatable...and werent hubng up about it. When we got engaged...we took a vow of celebacy...including no porn...till we married 8 months later.

I still looked...and thought of her..and took care of "myself". I have no problem with self-pleasure. Either way....IMO...we're all gonna sin when it comes to sex. We either did it...wanna do it...or will do it. There are things that can be done to curb such sins...but dont BS us or anyone else. People have been honest here...and thats cool. I am too.

I just do not see things so B/W...and think most people who brag about "being virgins" are posers and phonys...because they're doing SOMETHING....

It just happens...and I aint denying it. Watching porn? Why? Do soemthing about your problem...


So what you're saying is that sin really isn't a serious issue and that we should just do what we want to do because we have grace. Do you really think that Christ is cool with that sort of stance?

[Musicdude]

If you have abeating heart and air in your lungs...you will get aroused at just about anything.

For the record..I am selling my bed and blankets....

..and giving up sleep....

This morning I awoke....well, you know....and it was all from my warm bed and blankets...and sleep. Time to give that stuff up...:D

After all the stories you've given on this thread, I don't think you could pay someone enough to take your bed and/or blankets.

[mcgreen311]

I know one thing..I am ADDICTED to arguing with virgins and unmarried men who may not have ever even kissed a girl and who would chit their pants with a real woman.

Watch what you want....pleae or dont please your wife....do whatever....

I just asked some questions....people responded...so did I. Thats it...

I'm done here...spent too much time already arguing over nothing, nonesense. I need my head examined...I have work to do...

That's condescending and also untrue as has been already evidenced by several posters in this thread.

[Evanescence]

I'm not leaving because I am beat or pizzed. There is nothing to argue...it was a simple series of questions. I wasnt defending..in fact i said its mostly wrong and sinful..and destructive. But, i feel there may be small benefits...

Thats all...NO ONE is without sexual sin. You may claim to be...but you're full of it...

Once again..the honest man gets the ax...

[mcgreen311]

I'm not leaving because I am beat or pizzed. There is nothing to argue...it was a simple series of questions. I wasnt defending..in fact i said its mostly wrong and sinful..and destructive. But, i feel there may be small benefits...

Thats all...NO ONE is without sexual sin. You may claim to be...but you're full of it...

Once again..the honest man gets the ax...

The difference is that you are justifying it merely because it exists where others who have admitted to it existing in their lives have also admitted to it being wrong.

[Musicdude]

Yeah...and? Did I say anything different? Did anyone?

Answer the question. If kissing isnt sex...then what is it..and to what extent can people partake in it?

Um, even though if you'll pay attention you'll see that this has been answered a million times in this thread aleady. I'll answer it again.

When you become aroused and you give into that arousal, that's when it becomes sin.

Many cultures kiss on the mouth as a greeting, others on the cheek. Nothing wrong with that. But if some hot chick from Brazil or somewhere kisses me on the cheek and I enjoy it a little too much, and I look for opportunities to get greeted by her again, and I think about it and go over it again and again in my mind. I am lusting, and committing adultery. Period, end of story.

So no, kissing is not sex. Kissing is kissing, the heart determines whether or not it's sinful like most other things.
Adultery can happen without any physical contact whatsoever according to Jesus Christ.


To answer your question, would I be ok with my wife kissing some other dude on the mouth? No. And I would not be ok with her even wanting to kiss some other guy on the mouth. Because in our culture that's inappropriate and it's not just a harmless greeting.

[Musicdude]

You guys realize there used to be sodomy laws...as well as other absurd sexuality laws here in the US. Such as it was against the law to transport a sex toy across state lines in GA or AL?

I have heard so many people on here say: "Anything is fine as long as its within the context of the marriage..."

Toys and porn?

It has to be consentual. Toys? Not for me, but I can't see any reason it would be wrong.
Porn? No, because it brings more people into the bedroom other than just the husband and wife, and that is a strict no-no according to God. And taking it a step further, even thinking about another woman while making love to your wife would be just as bad. It's the same sin.

[Musicdude]

No...I said it COULD be useful. is all porn like you described? I dont watch it...but when i did..there was a variety. The beginning of the thread was about how the pron industry is becoming more "lady" friendly and making porn for women...that women and couples would like.

If THAT can help a person or marriage...fine. All i am saying is that to me..its not a B/W issue...of all wrong. Yes...its probably 90% destructive....

But then again...are parents teaching their kids of its dangers? keeping it from them? Are husbands and wives treating their spouses right..so they wont look for porn?

Its not a live animal coming for you...YOU seek it out. And why?

If your marriage is in trouble that is a spiritual problem, because a marriage is a spiritual entitity. Porn is a human solution to a spiritual problem. There is no marrital problem that God cannot solve without the use of sinning on the part of the couple. Sin does not solve problems, it creates more problems.

[Valpo]

I love when you use scripture to back yourself up E writes you off like some backwoods kook. As Mcgreen pointed out, this IS a Christian board, hello? Know your audience...

[cheewiee]

This thread has garnered over 180 posts in 2 business days.

This has been one of the most heated discussions that I have seen on my time on these boards. I am shocked that this thread even made it this far.

Whether I am a good husband, or not, whether or not my wife and I share a good sexual relationship does not justify porn on any level. That's like saying someone who makes bad financial decisions is justified to rob a bank to fix their finances. Its making a bad decision to correct the many that have come before it.

As someone who has had issues with porn, it is destructive. Porn destroys men all over this nation. It warps their view of sex, and women.

[Evanescence]

Um, even though if you'll pay attention you'll see that this has been answered a million times in this thread aleady. I'll answer it again.

When you become aroused and you give into that arousal, that's when it becomes sin.

Many cultures kiss on the mouth as a greeting, others on the cheek. Nothing wrong with that. But if some hot chick from Brazil or somewhere kisses me on the cheek and I enjoy it a little too much, and I look for opportunities to get greeted by her again, and I think about it and go over it again and again in my mind. I am lusting, and committing adultery. Period, end of story.

So no, kissing is not sex. Kissing is kissing, the heart determines whether or not it's sinful like most other things.
Adultery can happen without any physical contact whatsoever according to Jesus Christ.


To answer your question, would I be ok with my wife kissing some other dude on the mouth? No. And I would not be ok with her even wanting to kiss some other guy on the mouth. Because in our culture that's inappropriate and it's not just a harmless greeting.

This is the BEST answer I have evr heard to this question. And I agree. My only last question...is how do people justify kissing/making out in dating...if this is the case?

I know people who DID NOT kiss their wife at all before marriage. Except a kiss on the cheek. They only held hands. THAT...is the only real way to go, if you are going to live by the above creed. I would only hope they'd be honest enough to admit they had sexual thoughts...which indeed they did.

[Jesuslove]

This thread has garnered over 180 posts in 2 business days.

This has been one of the most heated discussions that I have seen on my time on these boards. I am shocked that this thread even made it this far.

You know why chewiee? Because sexuality is a taboo topic to many Christians... Instead of dealing with, and contronting the "elephant in the room", many Christians will be in denial about human sexuality, and continue to live in dysfunctional situation rather than deal with what is in front of them.

[Musicdude]

This thread has garnered over 180 posts in 2 business days.

This has been one of the most heated discussions that I have seen on my time on these boards. I am shocked that this thread even made it this far.

Whether I am a good husband, or not, whether or not my wife and I share a good sexual relationship does not justify porn on any level. That's like saying someone who makes bad financial decisions is justified to rob a bank to fix their finances. Its making a bad decision to correct the many that have come before it.

As someone who has had issues with porn, it is destructive. Porn destroys men all over this nation. It warps their view of sex, and women.

+1,000,000,000

I couldn't agree more.

The most it can offer a married couple is very temporary stimulation or arousal. But the problem is (aside from the fact that it's inherently sinful) is that this arousal is not in your spouse but in someone else. I personally would rather be unsatisfied sexually than be enslaved to needing some external source to get me going every time. And usually it gets worse and worse and you need more and more as the years go by.

[Jesuslove]

+1,000,000,000

I couldn't agree more.

The most it can offer a married couple is very temporary stimulation or arousal. But the problem is (aside from the fact that it's inherently sinful) is that this arousal is not in your spouse but in someone else. I personally would rather be unsatisfied sexually than be enslaved to needing some external source to get me going every time. And usually it gets worse and worse and you need more and more as the years go by.

Music.... I gotta call you out on something you said previously.. you said you turn your head if you see a Victoria's Secret commercial on tv. To put it bluntly, THAT is not NORMAL behavior. Sorry. You could be a great guy (I don't know you personally), but turning your head when a Victoria's Secret commercial comes on... that's really odd.

[Musicdude]

Music.... I gotta call you out on something you said previously.. you said you turn your head if you see a Victoria's Secret commercial on tv. To put it bluntly, THAT is not NORMAL behavior. Sorry. You could be a great guy (I don't know you personally), but turning your head when a Victoria's Secret commercial comes on... that's really odd.

I have absolutely no desire to conform to what the world deems "normal."
God has called me to a higher calling than that. I would rather do what pleases Him than what pleases or makes sense to the world. The world is passing away, God is forever.

Jesus said "if your eyes cause you to stumble, pluck them out and cast them from you."
Looking away from temptation is nowhere near as extreme as what Jesus (the Guy who's name in part of your screenname here) is suggesting.

FWIW, Jesus wasn't normal either. ;)

[Jesuslove]

I have absolutely no desire to conform to what the world deems "normal."
God has called me to a higher calling than that. I would rather do what pleases Him than what pleases or makes sense to the world. The world is passing away, God is forever.

Amen Music... :eek: Obesity is normal too!!! :eek: Life is grand!

[Valpo]

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE WATCH PORN OR ********** AND IT IS "ACCEPTABLE" IN CULTURE OR IS EVEN "NORMAL" DOES NOT MAKE IT GOOD OR NOT SINFUL

Quite the opposite. We are in the world but not of it, at least those of us who are Christian and follow "our scripture" which the Word of God Himself testifies to.

[Musicdude]

Amen Music... :eek: 30 lbs is normal too!!! :eek: Life is grand!

Oh yeah, and you're not judgement at all are you? Everybody sins, right? You don't take pleasure in pointing out other people's sins, right?

You have brought up my weight problem more than anyone I've ever known in my entire life and I've never even met you. You found one flaw in me (that I was not even trying to hide at all) and picked at me about it over and over again. Yeah, you're a real saint JL.

I would quote you the scripture where God tells us not to judge one another, but you don't care what the bible has to say anyway, so I'll save myself the trouble.

[Musicdude]

This thread was a joke from the get-go. No one who has ever read his bible would ask such an obvious question unless he was trying to justify his own bad behavior. You'll get no justification from me. Sorry pal.

Porn is wrong, period over and out.
The scriptures make it so clear an illiterate man could get that from reading his bible. And plus without even reading the bible, you already know it's wrong because it violates you own conscience. That is why you asked the question in the first place, so you could get others to back you up and make you feel a little more right about doing something you really know is wrong. You'll not get it here, except maybe from JL who has as little regard for God's word as you do.

[Evanescence]

Its sounding more and more like we have some porn junkies on here....4-5 of yous admitting.

Funny, I have porn in my house RIGHT NOW...and dont even know where it is. its like 10 yrs old...some poor dubb I made on a VHS tape...that i know is around here amoung my 300 VHS tapes. I havent seen it in yrs...dont know what the heck it is, or care.

My sex life sux right now due to our schedule...and I dont crave it...

I know it can be addicting...but its not my problem if someone else has issue with it. Most of ya'll cant even agree on whats sinful or not...except the porn you used to watch and/or liked at the time.

Val, you're a really stubborn person...and will be a handful in a relationship. You're about as fair as Hannity and Maddow combined...

I'm sorry I brought this up...and if anyone was offended. People agree and disagree. I will simply not condemn someone who uses soemthing "bad" for good...even if it is 10%. Nor someone who goes to great lengths to learn how to please their partner. That's on me....so I'll go to hell then.

[Evanescence]

Good Lord...what have I done. We're now ALL full of it...

Give it a rest guys...now we're all BSn each other...justifying and puffing...

Go to bed and stay of the porn guys...give it a break...

[Musicdude]

so I'll go to hell then.

Do you honestly think any one of us think you are going to hell just because you are a porn freak? We don't.

John 3:16 makes no mention of porn that I'm aware of.

[Jesuslove]

Do you honestly think any one of us think you are going to hell just because you are a porn freak? We don't.

John 3:16 makes no mention of porn that I'm aware of.

No but lying about porn is another story Music. Come on. You don't peek when the Victoria's Secret commercial comes on?? :D

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I'm not leaving because I am beat or pizzed. There is nothing to argue...it was a simple series of questions. I wasnt defending..in fact i said its mostly wrong and sinful..and destructive. But, i feel there may be small benefits...

Thats all...NO ONE is without sexual sin. You may claim to be...but you're full of it...

Once again..the honest man gets the ax...

I will repeat my question because it seems to have been missed:

Can you honestly say that Jesus would have taught his disciples (or even the Apostle Paul written) that pornography is beneficial (even if it's in just a small way)?

[Evanescence]

I told my wife point blank when we got married. I am a man..I like women...i look. if you have issue with that...we cant be together. You may look too..I EXPECT it...

She said she wouldnt be with a man who didnt look...I felt the same way. No games...no drama...no kookiness. We look together....but looking isnt LUSTING...we joke about people..and ask one another if we think so and so is cute/hot.

Sounds like there's a LOT more going on among some people...so they want to put others through their hell and condemn becuase of THEIR actions..using their ideaology...

[Evanescence]

I will repeat my question because it seems to have been missed:

Can you honestly say that Jesus would have taught his disciples (or even the Apostle Paul written) that pornography is beneficial (even if it's in just a small way)?


Oh...please...you sound like a 3rd grade sunday school teacher....

next up..."E, if you were to die tomoorow...do you think you would go to heav..."

Please...

[Shonsu]

This thread was a joke from the get-go. No one who has ever read his bible would ask such an obvious question unless he was trying to justify his own bad behavior. You'll get no justification from me. Sorry pal.

Porn is wrong, period over and out.
The scriptures make it so clear an illiterate man could get that from reading his bible. And plus without even reading the bible, you already know it's wrong because it violates you own conscience. That is why you asked the question in the first place, so you could get others to back you up and make you feel a little more right about doing something you really know is wrong. You'll not get it here, except maybe from JL who has as little regard for God's word as you do.


I agree 100%, porn is wrong. Period.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I told my wife point blank when we got married. I am a man..I like women...i look. if you have issue with that...we cant be together. You may look too..I EXPECT it...

She said she wouldnt be with a man who didnt look...I felt the same way. No games...no drama...no kookiness. We look together....but looking isnt LUSTING...we joke about people..and ask one another if we think so and so is cute/hot.

Sounds like there's a LOT more going on among some people...so they want to put others through their hell and condemn becuase of THEIR actions..using their ideaology...

I'm going to pray for you E because you clearly don't understand what lust is. May God change your stubborn heart.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Oh...please...you sound like a 3rd grade sunday school teacher....

next up..."E, if you were to die tomoorow...do you think you would go to heav..."

Please...

Don't change the topic. Yes or no?

[Musicdude]

Oh what the heck: I'll admit it. Wayne is odd.

;)

But that was never in question. And what's up with you using the ;) smilie? I thought that was the most annoying thing in the world to you.

[Valpo]

E, you just admitted you told your wife you "look." Why do you look? For the cinematography? NO. Because you're attracted to it! You are attracted to naked women who are not your wife (SINGULAR). That is sin, period. That is lust. Lust does not equal rubbing one out every time, lust equals coveting, wanting, taking pleasure in any form by looking at a woman, specifically in this context naked or scantily clad women, who are not your wife! End of story. I'll take Jesus over your "enlightened" crap.

[cheewiee]

You know why chewiee? Because sexuality is a taboo topic to many Christians... Instead of dealing with, and contronting the "elephant in the room", many Christians will be in denial about human sexuality, and continue to live in dysfunctional situation rather than deal with what is in front of them.

Sexuality isn't the taboo topic in the church you think it is...

http://xxxchurch.com/
http://vimeo.com/5273451
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897917879 7156649536&ei=rRMGS-2CMZLSqQLzjLnxCQ&q=Mosaic+Church+Charlotte +Video&hl=en&client=safari#

The elephant in the room, isn't an elephant. No one here has taken a prudish or puritanical stance. Everyone who has mentioned that porn = bad do so because it's true. It destroys men. It destroys families. It reduces women to objects of desire and not partners in life.

What amazes me is that you two don't recognize that fact... Instead both of you try to find any reason to dispute the authority of scripture.

Like I said, robbing a bank, to correct financial mistakes, not a good idea...

[Evanescence]

This thread was a joke from the get-go. No one who has ever read his bible would ask such an obvious question unless he was trying to justify his own bad behavior. You'll get no justification from me. Sorry pal.

Porn is wrong, period over and out.
The scriptures make it so clear an illiterate man could get that from reading his bible. And plus without even reading the bible, you already know it's wrong because it violates you own conscience. That is why you asked the question in the first place, so you could get others to back you up and make you feel a little more right about doing something you really know is wrong. You'll not get it here, except maybe from JL who has as little regard for God's word as you do.

It certianly does not. It speaks of LUST..and that definition is up for debate. I dont have a porn problem....never did and never will. This damm computer is the closetst thing to a vice I have...and you're bringing me into to it...my co-dependent....

I never felt bad about watching porn...even when I did it on purpose becuase my first wife got lazy. Yep...let her see it on the table and all. Told her it will egt worse if she doesnt quit being lazy and pathetic. Only happened once...she got the point. I gave her warning signs and we tlaked about it...she took it for granted. Not after that though...

She knew who the big dog was...:cool:

[Musicdude]

I told my wife point blank when we got married. I am a man..I like women...i look. if you have issue with that...we cant be together. You may look too..I EXPECT it...

She said she wouldnt be with a man who didnt look...I felt the same way. No games...no drama...no kookiness. We look together....but looking isnt LUSTING...we joke about people..and ask one another if we think so and so is cute/hot.

Sounds like there's a LOT more going on among some people...so they want to put others through their hell and condemn becuase of THEIR actions..using their ideaology...

It's not drama, and it's not a game, and you don't know what you're missing.

[Evanescence]

I'm going to pray for you E because you clearly don't understand what lust is. May God change your stubborn heart.

I laugh at stubborness....you cant be in any position to talk about such things. You're not married..and I am sure you are a virgin.

Don't do me any favors...

[Evanescence]

It's not drama, and it's not a game, and you don't know what you're missing.


What living in bondage? Yep...dont wnat any part of that...

[Shonsu]

It certianly does not. It speaks of LUST..and that definition is up for debate. I dont have a porn problem....never did and never will. This damm computer is the closetst thing to a vice I have...and you're bringing me into to it...my co-dependent....

I never felt bad about watching porn...even when I did it on purpose becuase my first wife got lazy. Yep...let her see it on the table and all. Told her it will egt worse if she doesnt quit being lazy and pathetic. Only happened once...she got the point. I gave her warning signs and we tlaked about it...she took it for granted. Not after that though...

She knew who the big dog was...:cool:


Oh yeah, such a big dog, turning to porn just to scorn your wife. And you don't think there is a problem with that?

[Musicdude]

What living in bondage? Yep...dont wnat any part of that...

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I laugh at stubborness....you cant be in any position to talk about such things. You're not married..and I am sure you are a virgin.

Don't do me any favors...

You've got some nerve, John. Why do you think I have spent time answering your arguments even thought they have more holes than the Titanic? Because I am your Christian brother and I want to help you. This has never - and will never - be about winning an argument. Sexual immorality destroys lives. I know people who've had it happen to them. The Bible is not open for interpretation or for man to conveniently ignore the parts they don't like. It is God's Word and what God says is bad for us is bad for us. It's that damn simple.

You haven't answered my question yet either...

[Grank]

meh, me and my g/f can talk about who we find physically attractive. she even gives me opinions of women and i give her opinions of guys... doesn't make it lust. it's usually done on a 10 scale. it's just how they look. it's mostly mathematical... symmetry and proportions... we also talk about people's intelligence... also on a 10 scale. seeing as how i'm not jealous of people's looks or intelligence it's not that big of a deal. if you can't look without lusting, then don't. i, however, can. it takes more than just looks to truly attract me.

this reminds me... i'm gonna propose to her over thanksgiving break. kinda nervous lol

[Evanescence]

Oh yeah, such a big dog, turning to porn just to scorn your wife. And you don't think there is a problem with that?

No...she had it coming...a lesson well desvred and learned. You DO NOT deprive out of laziness. I did the same with my mom/dad. They tried to barr me from riding my bike into town so i could go tot he pool. the neighborhood kids kicked my azz every day...it was BAD. but my mom/dad were stubborn. So i gave them an ultimatum. Either I ride to town and go to the pool with normal kids...or I will start doing DRUGS...tomoorow. Your choice. You have 1 hr to decide.

They saw my point....

[Evanescence]

meh, me and my g/f can talk about who we find physically attractive. she even gives me opinions of women and i give her opinions of guys... doesn't make it lust. it's usually done on a 10 scale. it's just how they look. it's mostly mathematical... symmetry and proportions... we also talk about people's intelligence... also on a 10 scale. seeing as how i'm not jealous of people's looks or intelligence it's not that big of a deal. if you can't look without lusting, then don't. i, however, can. it takes more than just looks to truly attract me.

this reminds me... i'm gonna propose to her over thanksgiving break. kinda nervous lol


Good luck..congrats!

[Valpo]

John, we didnt commend what we did. We were honest and admitted, as you asked us to, that we have watched porn in the past. Jason and I are being honest, you are not. It's a huge difference.

The difference is he and I recognize our sin and repent of it and turn to the only place we know where, and that's the foot of the cross. You harden your heart and continue along this path of destruction writing off countless people who have gone that way before you and ruined their marriages and lives. Evidently it played a part in ruining your first marriage as you, the big dog, lauded it over your wifes head because she "got lazy" whatever the hell that is. You're just as much a failure in that marriage as your ex wife is. Come down off of your perch.

PS: does anyone else see the irony in the liberal champions of minorities and womens rights slamming us for condemning porn when the porn industry has destroyed untold numbers of womens lives? As well as the lives of many minorities who turned to it because they felt they had no other place to turn.

[Evanescence]

You've got some nerve, John. Why do you think I have spent time answering your arguments even thought they have more holes than the Titanic? Because I am your Christian brother and I want to help you. This has never - and will never - be about winning an argument. Sexual immorality destroys lives. I know people who've had it happen to them. The Bible is not open for interpretation or for man to conveniently ignore the parts they don't like. It is God's Word and what God says is bad for us is bad for us. It's that damn simple.

You haven't answered my question yet either...

Dont do me anyt favors. the very same Bible verse you try to use against me..I read when you were in diapers. You think I am some dork that neevr read the Bible. Not eveyrone is a Bible literalist....and dont se things YOUR way. think its all about you...start a church and make it your way. Like Burger King. You..like many others...are looking down your nose at me while you pray....

Don't....

[Musicdude]

And how do you know how anyone on these forums acts when no one else is around?

There is never a time when no one else is around for a Christian. The one who holds you accountable is with you everywhere you can go, and not only knows all of your actions, but even all of your thoughts.

I would never give up a sin for my wife. All sin is against God, and if I give it up it's because I want to be closer to God and this worldly stuff is not worth the damage it causes to your relationship with Him.

When God see all sins (including pornea) He sees evil, and He absolutely hates it. Not the person sinning, but the sin it'self. I want to be so far removed from that sin that I hate it as much as He does. I'm not there yet. I can still justify it if I really try hard.

[cheewiee]

I love how some here keep calling porn the "elephant in the room" when everyone here seems to be pretty open about it...

So I have to ask, Ev, JL, do you want to hear the gruesome gory details of your brothers in Christ moral failures? Will that make you feel better about your own?

Why do you want to know? is that for your own arousal?

Even if everyone here, calling porn a sin in between this heated argument was going and watching porn, doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it not sin.

John, Ask your wife to watch porn with you.... look into her heart, and see how much it breaks as she starts asking the real "Tough" questions... "am I not good enough?", "do I not turn him on?", or "whats my worth if my husband would rather look at some 2 dimensional whore than spend time with me?"

Those are the tough questions....

[Shonsu]

Read back some...he admitted it. So did the others...as did I. I just refused to allow myslef to have a problem with it...

I wasnt judging..its just funny...not funny as in his misfortune...but that people are on here preaching...but their skeletons are deep in their closet...

So what? We are all sinners. We all have skeletons. But once we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and truly repent of all of those things then we are washed clean. I once looked at porn too but no longer only because of the Holy Spirit. I certainly couldn't have gotten away from it by myself. So now I can come here and tell you that it is wrong and exactly how to get away from it.

[Evanescence]

John, we didnt commend what we did. We were honest and admitted, as you asked us to, that we have watched porn in the past. Jason and I are being honest, you are not. It's a huge difference.

The difference is he and I recognize our sin and repent of it and turn to the only place we know where, and that's the foot of the cross. You harden your heart and continue along this path of destruction writing off countless people who have gone that way before you and ruined their marriages and lives. Evidently it played a part in ruining your first marriage as you, the big dog, lauded it over your wifes head because she "got lazy" whatever the hell that is. You're just as much a failure in that marriage as your ex wife is. Come down off of your perch.

PS: does anyone else see the irony in the liberal champions of minorities and womens rights slamming us for condemning porn when the porn industry has destroyed untold numbers of womens lives? As well as the lives of many minorities who turned to it because they felt they had no other place to turn.

There we go...the 2nd one who now thinks my marriage ended becuase of porn. My wife was a loon...bug eating, bi-polar and as stubborn as they get. of course I played a part in the break up...but it wasnt becuase of porn. It wasnt even a factor. We had a great sex life....she was a lie and a cheat. i did what i did to show her what will happen if she didnt quit being sad and pathetic. It was wrong...but necessary.

My new wife knows better..she knows what can happen. And I am a little more grown up..and she is a different person...MORE deserveing of respect and the benefit of the doubt...

I'm glad you guys got fixed up....I didnt need to. I didnt get wrapped up in it....despite what you REALLY think...

[Musicdude]

Read back some...he admitted it. So did the others...as did I. I just refused to allow myslef to have a problem with it...

I wasnt judging..its just funny...not funny as in his misfortune...but that people are on here preaching...but their skeletons are deep in their closet...

My skeletons are not in any closet. They have been repented of and forgiven. I am not hiding anything from anyone. This stuff was in my past. I can look at it objectively now that it's over, and nothing good came from it, only bad. It caused strongholds in my life as do most sins.

[Jesuslove]

I love how some here keep calling porn the "elephant in the room" when everyone here seems to be pretty open about it...

So I have to ask, Ev, JL, do you want to hear the gruesome gory details of your brothers in Christ moral failures? Will that make you feel better about your own?

Huh? Who did I ask if anyone watched porn? If someone shares the gory details of their porn encounters on this board, don't blame me.

[cheewiee]

Huh? Who did I ask if anyone watched porn? If someone shares the gory details of their porn encounters on this board, don't blame me.

You keep talking about the elephant in the room... That doesn't seem to be the topic of porn as we are all discussing it... So what else can you be referring to?

[Evanescence]

I love how some here keep calling porn the "elephant in the room" when everyone here seems to be pretty open about it...

So I have to ask, Ev, JL, do you want to hear the gruesome gory details of your brothers in Christ moral failures? Will that make you feel better about your own?

Why do you want to know? is that for your own arousal?

Even if everyone here, calling porn a sin in between this heated argument was going and watching porn, doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it not sin.

John, Ask your wife to watch porn with you.... look into her heart, and see how much it breaks as she starts asking the real "Tough" questions... "am I not good enough?", "do I not turn him on?", or "whats my worth if my husband would rather look at some 2 dimensional whore than spend time with me?"

Those are the tough questions....

I dont have a problem with it...it does nothing for me. But if you really must know...WE did watch it wheile she was pregnant one time....because she couldnt perform. We did other things..and it was HER idea. She picked it out.

See, you have this IDEA...about women and sex and erotica. Its like saying all men are pron or sex addicts. Most men do not understand women....and live in denail of how they soemthimes think. They're as kinky as we are...they just hide it better...

[Shonsu]

There we go...the 2nd one who now thinks my marriage ended becuase of porn. My wife was a loon...bug eating, bi-polar and as stubborn as they get. of course I played a part in the break up...but it wasnt becuase of porn. It wasnt even a factor. We had a great sex life....she was a lie and a cheat. i did what i did to show her what will happen if she didnt quit being sad and pathetic. It was wrong...but necessary.

My new wife knows better..she knows what can happen. And I am a little more grown up..and she is a different person...MORE deserveing of respect and the benefit of the doubt...

I'm glad you guys got fixed up....I didnt need to. I didnt get wrapped up in it....despite what you REALLY think...


You really have some serious issues.

[Musicdude]

I dont have a problem with it...it does nothing for me. But if you really must know...WE did watch it wheile she was pregnant one time....because she couldnt perform. We did other things..and it was HER idea. She picked it out.

See, you have this IDEA...about women and sex and erotica. Its like saying all men are pron or sex addicts. Most men do not understand women....and live in denail of how they soemthimes think. They're as kinky as we are...they just hide it better...

Funny, my wife didn't have any trouble when she was pregnant. In fact I think we had more sex the last trimester than we ever have before. Oh, but I'm a bible-thumping prude, so I must be lying about that.

[Evanescence]

You really have some serious issues.


No, i dont put up with chit from people. we made vows...you keep them. no excuses...no BS. After week after wek afetr week of being turned down..laughed at and sex ruined by stupid talk...I got fed up.

She used to do crap to ruin sex...dumb stuff. We talked about it..she kept it up...I got up and left..walked right out numerous times. Dont crap in my easter basket...dont jerk my chain...i dont like it..and will leave.

[cheewiee]

I dont have a problem with it...it does nothing for me. But if you really must know...WE did watch it wheile she was pregnant one time....because she couldnt perform. We did other things..and it was HER idea. She picked it out.

See, you have this IDEA...about women and sex and erotica. Its like saying all men are pron or sex addicts. Most men do not understand women....and live in denail of how they soemthimes think. They're as kinky as we are...they just hide it better...

Its not a notion... I have.. or some idea...

Women want to be princesses... sometimes in life, that desire gets lost, changed or broken...

Princesses want to be the object of their Prince Charming's desire. They don't want their prince pining over someone else. What's sad is that rather than honor your wife, you chose to defile your relationship...

[Evanescence]

Funny, my wife didn't have any trouble when she was pregnant. In fact I think we had more sex the last trimester than we ever have before. Oh, but I'm a bible-thumping prude, so I must be lying about that.

She was carrying a 10 lb'r...it wasnt going to happen. We had to resort to hand to hand combat...

Thats a sin in some peoples...eyes....too bad..they dont know what they're missing...

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Dont do me anyt favors. the very same Bible verse you try to use against me..I read when you were in diapers. You think I am some dork that neevr read the Bible. Not eveyrone is a Bible literalist....and dont se things YOUR way. think its all about you...start a church and make it your way. Like Burger King. You..like many others...are looking down your nose at me while you pray....

Don't....

So now it's my fault? And since I'm not married I can't possibly understand passages like Proverbs 6:23-29, Galations 5:19 and Colossians 3:5? Read them.

BTW, you still haven't produced one shred of evidence to support your argument that porn is 10% OK. Nor have you answered my question.

I'm out of here before I say things I'll regret.

[Musicdude]

No, i dont put up with chit from people. we made vows...you keep them. no excuses...no BS. After week after wek afetr week of being turned down..laughed at and sex ruined by stupid talk...I got fed up.

She used to do crap to ruin sex...dumb stuff. We talked about it..she kept it up...I got up and left..walked right out numerous times. Dont crap in my easter basket...dont jerk my chain...i dont like it..and will leave.

Maybe if you made pleasuring her your top priority and quit being so selfish, she would've looked forward to sex instead of taking every opportunity to ruin it for you.

[Evanescence]

Its not a notion... I have.. or some idea...

Women want to be princesses... sometimes in life, that desire gets lost, changed or broken...

Princesses want to be the object of their Prince Charming's desire. They don't want their prince pining over someone else. What's sad is that rather than honor your wife, you chose to defile your relationship...

See..thatw hat you dont get. A couple wathcing porn is NOT looking at the woman or lust...its the nejoyment of the sex..the beauty of the woman's O...the activity...NOT lusting after anyone...not for some of us.

[Grank]

What living in bondage? Yep...dont wnat any part of that...

i thought Christ came so that we may have life and have it more abundantly... not keep us in bondage... but that's just what my Bible says... which clearly holds no weight for you??? still a little fuzzy on that one.

actually Christianity isn't the only religion or philosophy that is against porn... taoism, confucianism, islam, judaism, buddhism blah blah blah

it's cool if you're a hindu though... they practically invented the stuff

[Musicdude]

See..thatw hat you dont get. A couple wathcing porn is NOT looking at the woman or lust...its the nejoyment of the sex..the beauty of the woman's O...the activity...NOT lusting after anyone...not for some of us.

BS. Tell that tripe to God when you stand before Him. He'll get a good chuckle.


This entire thread is grieving the Holy Spirit. I can't take it anymore.

Good night.

[Evanescence]

Maybe if you made pleasuring her your top priority and quit being so selfish, she would've looked forward to sex instead of taking every opportunity to ruin it for you.

I hear ya...and that is true...but NOT in this instance. She went through phases...soemtimes she was real serious about life...which made sex GREAT...then other times....just didnt care. yep..some of it was me...we men bring out the worst in women...but most was her.

She eventually cheated...twice...and tried to spilt...but came back. She was rebellious...hated me being right. It damm near killed her....and she told everyone she made a big mistake...

She missed the big dog...:P

[Musicdude]

I hear ya...and that is true...but NOT in this instance. She went through phases...soemtimes she was real serious about life...which made sex GREAT...then other times....just didnt care. yep..some of it was me...we men bring out the worst in women...but most was her.

She eventually cheated...twice...and tried to spilt...but came back. She was rebellious...hated me being right. It damm near killed her....and she told everyone she made a big mistake...

She missed the big dog...:P

According to your philosophy, she had every right to cheat on you, because she wasn't satisfied with you sexually.

[Evanescence]

BS. Tell that tripe to God when you stand before Him. He'll get a good chuckle.


This entire thread is grieving the Holy Spirit. I can't take it anymore.

Good night.

Its not man...you jsut dont get it. I am not saying it doesnt happen...in between enjoying the erotic images...but for the most part...for me, it was all about the reality of the activity. Thats why I hated it..it was fake...and if it was fake..it didnt trip my trigger.

BTW- We sometimes wrote dirty stories to each other...soemtimes REAL dirty. Porn?

[Evanescence]

According to your philosophy, she had every right to cheat on you, because she wasn't satisfied with you sexually.


no..she cheated out of rebeelion and spite. This will be really crazy to say...but it wasnt the main reason why i dumped her..it was her mouth and attitude....

I either had to leave..or die of a stroke from her mouth...

I'm not blowing my own horn...but women have tried to committ suicide over me. My ex,...another girl friend...one woman wanted to marry me after we went our 3 times. Thats one main reason why i didnt have sex with most women i dated...I give 1000%...and they never had it so good....then they get goofy. Not braggin here...just saying. its crazy...

[Evanescence]

i thought Christ came so that we may have life and have it more abundantly... not keep us in bondage... but that's just what my Bible says... which clearly holds no weight for you??? still a little fuzzy on that one.

actually Christianity isn't the only religion or philosophy that is against porn... taoism, confucianism, islam, judaism, buddhism blah blah blah

it's cool if you're a hindu though... they practically invented the stuff


I'm not in bondage...we dont do it. Two times since we were married...a few times during a spell in my early 30s when I was single..and when i was in my early 20s...

Never was an issue of bondage...in fact, i grew to dislike it...too fake..and I felt it COULD be addictive. Either way, he single man is doomed...biologically...s oemthing has to exit Mr. Wiggley or we get wierd...so we're doomed...

I like being married though...got a good wife who I love sharing love/sex with..and vice versa. Married sex with soemone you are in love with is amazing....the passion is insane...

[Evanescence]

Ok..i'm outta here...

What have we done...talking about sex on Third Day....

Its all my fault....

I love you guys...

Behave...lave your wife alone tonight....no excuses... :P

[Grank]

Either way, he single man is doomed...biologically...s oemthing has to exit Mr. Wiggley or we get wierd...so we're doomed...



just cuz you're too weak to be single doesn't mean others are as well... jesus and paul for starters...

[middletree]

But that was never in question. And what's up with you using the ;) smilie? I thought that was the most annoying thing in the world to you.

No, the ;) is fine. It's the rolling eyes one that I think is very disrespectful and should never be part of any debate. At least, I can't take someone seriously once they pull out the rolling eyes. It shows me they don't have any substance to their argument, and are grasping at straws.

[Evanescence]

Ok....a confession...

I am an addict...

There, I said it...

I can't stop...

Please help me....

I couldnt wait to get up and check this thread....I'm addicted...

So much fun last night....so many good sports....