Naughty or nice? The AFA list

[mcgreen311]

http://action.afa.net/Detail.aspx?id=2147486887

I post this not for informational, but for aggravational (on my behalf) purposes. The boycott completely misses the point. Yes, corporate world, please continue to completely commercialize Christmas. Santa hats and reindeer? As long as you say Christmas...

I'd be fine with a holyday personally.

From the article:
A company may be removed from the "bad" list by providing documentation to AFA.
:D

[middletree]

This is not the first time the American Family Association has their priorities wrong.

[Grank]

have a happy winter holiday! HA!

[Howlin' Wolf]

The AFA is a joke.

[mcgreen311]

This is not the first time the American Family Association has their priorities wrong.

Oh, definitely. I had a fun time reading the comments in the article, let me tell you. I was looking for the one-star or no-star ones to see how many dissenting opinions there were.

[Musicdude]

This is not the first time the American Family Association has their priorities wrong.

Maybe. But most of these companies (unlike you) do view Christmas as a Christian holiday which is why they ban the word.

So whether they are really attacking Christianity by their actions, or just another pagan holiday, their intentions are to attack Christianity to gain profits.

So since CVS and Walgreens are essentially identical, but CVS is on the naughty list and Walgreens isn't. So, buh bye CVS.

[middletree]

Maybe. But most of these companies (unlike you) do view Christmas as a Christian holiday which is why they ban the word.

So whether they are really attacking Christianity by their actions, or just another pagan holiday, their intentions are to attack Christianity to gain profits.

So since CVS and Walgreens are essentially identical, but CVS is on the naughty list and Walgreens isn't. So, buh bye CVS.

What the companies' motive is is not our concern. It is not the job of Walgreens or CVS to spread the message of the arrival of Jesus. It's the job of the church.

[Jesuslove]

What the companies' motive is is not our concern. It is not the job of Walgreens or CVS to spread the message of the arrival of Jesus. It's the job of the church.

Amen! I totally agree.

[Grank]

What the companies' motive is is not our concern. It is not the job of Walgreens or CVS to spread the message of the arrival of Jesus. It's the job of the church.

true, but you should always try to be cognizant of who your money goes to and what their intentions are

[Jesuslove]

true, but you should always try to be cognizant of who your money goes to and what their intentions are

exactly... that's why I wouldn't give my $ to the cultlike AFA.

[Shonsu]

What the companies' motive is is not our concern. It is not the job of Walgreens or CVS to spread the message of the arrival of Jesus. It's the job of the church.

Yeah, but when companies like that actively tell their employees that they can't say the "C" word (like Merry Christmas to a customer), then they are actively trying to cultivate the move away from it being a Christian holiday. So I agree with the AFA.

[Shonsu]

exactly... that's why I wouldn't give my $ to the cultlike AFA.

Yeah, such a cult. Trying to keep Christianity in our culture is such a bad thing.

[cheewiee]

Yeah, such a cult. Trying to keep Christianity in our culture is such a bad thing.

While AFA isn't a cult, I disagree with their tactics...

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yeah, such a cult. Trying to keep Christianity in our culture is such a bad thing.

Why is that so important to you? The Chinese church is flourishing.

[Musicdude]

What the companies' motive is is not our concern. It is not the job of Walgreens or CVS to spread the message of the arrival of Jesus. It's the job of the church.

I don't expect them to spread the gospel. But when they actively try to extinguish it, I have a problem with that. I don't want them shut down, or an radical crap like that. It's a free country, and they an ban whatever word they want from their store. But also because it's a free country, I can spend my money wherever I want, so I will choose stores that at least don't actively go against Christianity. Whether they are sucessful or not, isn't the point. I'm not going to reward their efforts to ban Christmas with my patronidge.

[middletree]

I don't expect them to spread the gospel. But when they actively try to extinguish it,

But they're not trying to do anything to Christianity. If they told employees they couldn't ever pray, or couldn't go to church, or couldn't read their bibles, then that would be an attack on christianity, because those are things that God has told us we need to do as Christians. But Christmas is a man-made holiday, and if the stores are trying to extinguish a man-made holiday, what difference should it make to us?


One more point: the stores that the AFA has on their approved list; those stores mention the name Christmas, but never have anything in their decorations or ads about Jesus. They have Santa, and elves and evergreen trees. The fact that this satisfies the AFA is a joke with a capital J.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Has anyone ever thought that there alot of people in this country that do not celebrate Christmas and this boils down to a company trying to make money by appeasing all their potential customers and being politically correct?

All throughout the world, Christians are being persecuted and in America, the church is upset because the local pharmacy says, "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".

[Musicdude]

Has anyone ever thought that there alot of people in this country that do not celebrate Christmas and this boils down to a company trying to make money by appeasing all their potential customers and being politically correct?

All throughout the world, Christians are being persecuted and in America, the church is upset because the local pharmacy says, "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".

That's where it starts. I don't want America to become like those other countries, and just because it isn't there yet doesn't mean it's not heading that direction.

Taking my $10 a month or so to walgreens instead of CVS isn't going to solve the problem, but every little bit helps. I do evangelize as well.

[middletree]

That's where it starts. I don't want America to become like those other countries, and just because it isn't there yet doesn't mean it's not heading that direction.

As Jason pointed out, most of the world persecutes Christians. And most of human history for the last 2000 years, it's been acceptable to persecute Christians. And as Jason points out, that's when the church grows the best. Why do we think we are anything special that we shouldn't have to endure some sort of persecution for our faith?

[Howlin' Wolf]

"Whomever the Lord has adopted and deemed worthy of his fellowship ought to prepare themselves for a hard, toilsome, and unquiet life, crammed with very many and various kinds of evil. It is the Heavenly Father's will thus to exercise them so as to put his own children to a definite test. Beginning with Christ, his first-born, he follows this plan with all his children."
John Calvin

[Valpo]

As Jason pointed out, most of the world persecutes Christians. And most of human history for the last 2000 years, it's been acceptable to persecute Christians. And as Jason points out, that's when the church grows the best. Why do we think we are anything special that we shouldn't have to endure some sort of persecution for our faith?

Yes. See Africa and Southeast Asia.

[Musicdude]

Oh forget it. You are missing the point.

I know Christian persecution in America is nothing compared to many other countries, and I never said otherwise. I also know that it's a normal thing for Christians to be persecuted, because we are not "of" the world. I get all that.
I also know it's a very high honor to be persecuted for Christ's sake.

And I am not going to fight against persecution. But I am going to vote with my dollars.

What you guys are implying would be the same as saying, well many nations have far more corrupt governments than the USA so we might as well vote for guys like Obama, because what difference does it make?

[middletree]

I'm not implying anything of the sort.

The AFA's statement and decision to protest sounds to me as if they consider "Happy Holidays" to be persecution. I don't agree, but let's just say it is.

Why organize a protest about it? Won't that make the anti-Christian sentiment stronger?


(I also don't agree that Christians are told by God to celebrate Christmas, so don't think this is protestable for that reason, but one thing at a time)

[Musicdude]

I'm not implying anything of the sort.

The AFA's statement and decision to protest sounds to me as if they consider "Happy Holidays" to be persecution. I don't agree, but let's just say it is.

Why organize a protest about it? Won't that make the anti-Christian sentiment stronger?
There are different levels of persecution. It doesn't have to be rounding up Christians and executing them to be considered persecution. And as I said, it's gotta start somewhere.

(I also don't agree that Christians are told by God to celebrate Christmas, so don't think this is protestable for that reason, but one thing at a time)
Pagan issues associated with December 25th aside, if the bible doesn't command me to pick a day out of the year to specifically celebrate Jesus' birth, but I choose to anyway because I love Him, that is a Christian thing, whether God commanded it or not.

[middletree]

There are different levels of persecution. It doesn't have to be rounding up Christians and executing them to be considered persecution. And as I said, it's gotta start somewhere.


Why organize a protest about it? Won't that make the anti-Christian sentiment stronger?

if the bible doesn't command me to pick a day out of the year to specifically celebrate Jesus' birth, but I choose to anyway because I love Him, that is a Christian thing, whether God commanded it or not.

I disagree with this statement.

[Musicdude]

Why organize a protest about it? Won't that make the anti-Christian sentiment stronger?
What kind of protest are we talking about here? I am only talking about spending my money in stores who aren't afraid of saying "Christmas." I don't see how anyone would even be aware of that protest unless I told them about it. And I didn't plan on making any public announcements about my intentions to the unbelieving world.



I disagree with this statement.
First off you didn't quote the whole statement. The first part mattered.
Why do you disagree?

[middletree]

What kind of protest are we talking about here? I am only talking about spending my money in stores who aren't afraid of saying "Christmas." I don't see how anyone would even be aware of that protest unless I told them about it. And I didn't plan on making any public announcements about my intentions to the unbelieving world.


I am talking about AFA's method in general. They make Christians come across as angry neanderthals.

First off you didn't quote the whole statement. The first part mattered.
Why do you disagree?

Well, I expressed my specific disagreements with the first half. Kind of picked it apart. The 2nd half, which you used as a reason that you believe the way you do, was just something I disagreed with. I chose not to quote the part about pagan holidays to avoid getting bogged down in that particular swamp again. Didn't want it to be a distraction.

I was saying that when you said "if the bible doesn't command me to pick a day out of the year to specifically celebrate Jesus' birth, but I choose to anyway because I love Him, that is a Christian thing, whether God commanded it or not."

I disagree that it's a Christian thing. Whatever that means.

[mcgreen311]

I was saying that when you said "if the bible doesn't command me to pick a day out of the year to specifically celebrate Jesus' birth, but I choose to anyway because I love Him, that is a Christian thing, whether God commanded it or not."

I disagree that it's a Christian thing. Whatever that means.

Right, because then (general) you are not being 'persecuted' because of your religion, but because of your personal (albeit traditional) preference.

[Musicdude]

I am talking about AFA's method in general. They make Christians come across as angry neanderthals.
I guess that is the difference here. I am not arguing for or about the AFA, and their methods. I am just taking the info they gathered, and using it to decide where I will shop. To tell you the truth I didn't even read the whole article. If they are organizing a protest I don't even know what it's about, and I don't care.

Well, I expressed my specific disagreements with the first half. Kind of picked it apart. The 2nd half, which you used as a reason that you believe the way you do, was just something I disagreed with. I chose not to quote the part about pagan holidays to avoid getting bogged down in that particular swamp again. Didn't want it to be a distraction.
Ok, well you took one statement that I made and quoted it and said you didn't agree with it. I was just wondering what about it you didn't agree with. I read your whole post, and I couldn't find the answer to my question.

I was saying that when you said "if the bible doesn't command me to pick a day out of the year to specifically celebrate Jesus' birth, but I choose to anyway because I love Him, that is a Christian thing, whether God commanded it or not."

I disagree that it's a Christian thing. Whatever that means.
I know. But what I don't know is why you disagree, especially when you admit you aren't even sure what I meant, but you disagree anyway. Are you just being arbitrary or do you have a reason for your disagreement? Care to share it with the class?

[mat1583]

I tend to agree with Middletree about Christmas mostly because we should be celebrating (praising, worshipping) Jesus and His birth all the time. Really, we should be celebrating His death and resurrection more than His birth. Having a holiday like Christmas or Easter just gives "christians" an excuse to forget about it the rest of the year.

Having said that, I do participate in Christmas traditions...singing carols, gift giving, lights, etc. I find it a little entertaining. It also makes me jolly, especially when grandma make some of that spiked egg nog :) I also know why Middletree doesn't do any of those, and I respect that. One thing is for sure - I'm not going to lie to my kids about the existence of Santa.

[mat1583]

I know. But what I don't know is why you disagree, especially when you admit you aren't even sure what I meant, but you disagree anyway. Are you just being arbitrary or do you have a reason for your disagreement? Care to share it with the class?

It might be better shared within a PM. I've been around for quite a while, and I think I've seen him explain it 3-4 times. It's just the same as the halloween threads. It comes up every year, goes 15-20 pages, and nobody changes their opinions :) Do we really have to do it all over again? lol

[Musicdude]

Right, because then (general) you are not being 'persecuted' because of your religion, but because of your personal (albeit traditional) preference.

But that personal preference is directed toward Jesus Christ, so does that not make it a Christian practice?

[Musicdude]

It might be better shared within a PM. I've been around for quite a while, and I think I've seen him explain it 3-4 times. It's just the same as the halloween threads. It comes up every year, goes 15-20 pages, and nobody changes their opinions :) Do we really have to do it all over again? lol

I'm not asking him to explain that. I know how he feels about Christmas being a pagan holiday. That's not what I'm talking about here.

My question was assuming that it wasn't a pagan holiday, or even if it never existed, and Joe Blow Christian just decided on his own to celebrate the birth of Jesus and since he didn't know exactly when He was born, he just picked a random day to celebrate. And let's say that caught on until large amounts of Christians also celebrated that day with him, and then the non-believing world reaslized how big it had become and wanted to capitalize on it by making it about something other than Jesus.

Would that be considered persecution?

[Musicdude]

I tend to agree with Middletree about Christmas mostly because we should be celebrating (praising, worshipping) Jesus and His birth all the time. Really, we should be celebrating His death and resurrection more than His birth. Having a holiday like Christmas or Easter just gives "christians" an excuse to forget about it the rest of the year.

Having said that, I do participate in Christmas traditions...singing carols, gift giving, lights, etc. I find it a little entertaining. It also makes me jolly, especially when grandma make some of that spiked egg nog :) I also know why Middletree doesn't do any of those, and I respect that. One thing is for sure - I'm not going to lie to my kids about the existence of Santa.

Do you take communion at your church? Is it wrong to take a day out of each month (or whatever frequency your church does it) and dedicate it to fellowshipping with God in a very personal way through taking the bread and cup? Just because we worship and praise and walk with God everyday doesn't mean we can't set aside a specific day as a special day just for that purpose.

[middletree]

I know. But what I don't know is why you disagree, especially when you admit you aren't even sure what I meant, but you disagree anyway. Are you just being arbitrary or do you have a reason for your disagreement? Care to share it with the class?

I don't agree it's a Christian thing. I don't know how to explain it. It's certainly not an anti-Christian thing.

Let me put it this way: it's not a command from God. If any business or govt agency tried to keep me from doing what God has commanded me, that would be persecution. This is not. This is Christians making up their own day. It's not wrong. It's just a day. A man-made thing.

As for the first thing, I have no problem with you choosing how to spend your money. I think you have your priorities right. I am specifically against the AFA's protest.

[mcgreen311]

This is going to be short, but IMO
But that personal preference is directed toward Jesus Christ, so does that not make it a Christian practice?

No

My question was assuming that it wasn't a pagan holiday, or even if it never existed, and Joe Blow Christian just decided on his own to celebrate the birth of Jesus and since he didn't know exactly when He was born, he just picked a random day to celebrate. And let's say that caught on until large amounts of Christians also celebrated that day with him, and then the non-believing world reaslized how big it had become and wanted to capitalize on it by making it about something other than Jesus.

Would that be considered persecution?

And no

[Musicdude]

This is going to be short, but IMO


No



And no

Care to elaborate?

[Shonsu]

What kind of protest are we talking about here? I am only talking about spending my money in stores who aren't afraid of saying "Christmas." I don't see how anyone would even be aware of that protest unless I told them about it. And I didn't plan on making any public announcements about my intentions to the unbelieving world.




Exactly! That is the whole point. It is to make us Christians aware of which organizations are into the whole "saying the word Christmas is politically incorrect" movement and avoiding them.

[Shonsu]

One thing is for sure - I'm not going to lie to my kids about the existence of Santa.


Amen to that!

[middletree]

Exactly! That is the whole point. It is to make us Christians aware of which organizations are into the whole "saying the word Christmas is politically incorrect" movement and avoiding them.

Guess you better avoid me, then. I don't like Christmas much, myself.

I do love Jesus. I'm just not terribly crazy about putting man-made stuff on par with God-ordained stuff.

[Musicdude]

Amen to that!

Me neither.

[Musicdude]

Guess you better avoid me, then. I don't like Christmas much, myself.

I do love Jesus. I'm just not terribly crazy about putting man-made stuff on par with God-ordained stuff.

If you ever have a garage sale, don't invite me. :D

[middletree]

If you ever have a garage sale, don't invite me. :D

I don't get it.

[Shonsu]

Guess you better avoid me, then. I don't like Christmas much, myself.

I do love Jesus. I'm just not terribly crazy about putting man-made stuff on par with God-ordained stuff.


I never said that our Christmas celebrations should ever be put on par with God-ordained stuff. But secular society is nibbling at the elephant and eventually they'll have it completely eaten.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I never said that our Christmas celebrations should ever be put on par with God-ordained stuff. But secular society is nibbling at the elephant and eventually they'll have it completely eaten.

So what

[middletree]

I never said that our Christmas celebrations should ever be put on par with God-ordained stuff. But secular society is nibbling at the elephant and eventually they'll have it completely eaten.

dude, it's a freaking smokescreen. When you fight in a war, one tactic is to distract the enemy so he can't see where you are. You can throw a smokebomb 40 or so yards away from where you are. The enemy sees the smoke, thinks you are behind it, and starts shooting. Meanwhile, you are a ways away from where he's aiming, and you escape.


If I were Satan, this is exactly what I'd do. Get Christians all worked up about something that doesn't matter (CHristmas), so they wouldn't focus on doing what does matter.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Satan has so blinded the church and convinced her that she has rights and she should fight for those rights.

The second you start living as one who is not a citizen of this world, is the second you start living the free life that was purchased on Calvary.

Consider it PURE JOY, my brothers......PURE JOY

[mcgreen311]

Care to elaborate?

I'm not really sure how to, actually, because it seems really obvious to me. One person's addition to his/her practice of the Christian faith does not equal the entirety of the Christian faith, and should not be given special status.

And I think that retail stores not saying Merry Christmas in no way equals persecution, and in fact, is an affront to those who have suffered real persecution.

[mat1583]

Do you take communion at your church? Is it wrong to take a day out of each month (or whatever frequency your church does it) and dedicate it to fellowshipping with God in a very personal way through taking the bread and cup? Just because we worship and praise and walk with God everyday doesn't mean we can't set aside a specific day as a special day just for that purpose.

We do take communion, but not with a specific frequency. It's done this way so as not to make it feel compulsory or something done out of tradition or habit. Whether or not it is frequent doesn't really matter, because Paul says in 1 Cor 11:

"23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

We are commanded by Christ to take communion as oft as we should eat bread & wine together. How many Christians follow that command? It's not a supposed to be a one time thing or a habitual act. Think about the time Jesus was doing this - it was during the passover celebration - a once a year celebration. Jesus was telling them "Don't just do this once a year, but every time you eat this bread and drink this cup."

The main point is that Jesus never commanded you and I to celebrate his birth one specific day of the year.

[Valpo]

We do take communion, but not with a specific frequency. It's done this way so as not to make it feel compulsory or something done out of tradition or habit. Whether or not it is frequent doesn't really matter, because Paul says in 1 Cor 11:

"23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

We are commanded by Christ to take communion as oft as we should eat bread & wine together. How many Christians follow that command? It's not a supposed to be a one time thing or a habitual act. Think about the time Jesus was doing this - it was during the passover celebration - a once a year celebration. Jesus was telling them "Don't just do this once a year, but every time you eat this bread and drink this cup."

The main point is that Jesus never commanded you and I to celebrate his birth one specific day of the year.

We celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday and pretty much anytime we come together in worship. So this happens on Wednesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays, etc. Closest you'll ever be to the Incarnate One on this side of eternity. I love it.

[Evanescence]

We had our baby's baptism today..we're Methodists. My great aunt came...she's a die-hard NY Catholic. Our services are contemporary-- Third day songs etc etc. Tonight was mild-- soft cheesy songs...but nice. My aunt was annoyed and irritated...and asked why we didnt have it in my wife's olf Lutheran church. Obviously becuase its close to Catholic.

She once refused to go to her own daughter's wedding becuase she had left the Catholic chruch and her new church would host thr wedding...Assemblies of God. She recanted when she got deathly ill and reluctantly went 4 weeks later...

I cannot imagine living in such bondage that your lfie revolves around worrying about such stupid junk..and actually thinking YOUR way is not only better, but more righteous.

Kooky....

No thanks...

[Shonsu]

dude, it's a freaking smokescreen. When you fight in a war, one tactic is to distract the enemy so he can't see where you are. You can throw a smokebomb 40 or so yards away from where you are. The enemy sees the smoke, thinks you are behind it, and starts shooting. Meanwhile, you are a ways away from where he's aiming, and you escape.


If I were Satan, this is exactly what I'd do. Get Christians all worked up about something that doesn't matter (CHristmas), so they wouldn't focus on doing what does matter.

I'm not all worked up about it. I'm just making choices on where to spend my money. I'm not out there picketing or anything like that.

[Shonsu]

We had our baby's baptism today..we're Methodists. My great aunt came...she's a die-hard NY Catholic. Our services are contemporary-- Third day songs etc etc. Tonight was mild-- soft cheesy songs...but nice. My aunt was annoyed and irritated...and asked why we didnt have it in my wife's olf Lutheran church. Obviously becuase its close to Catholic.

She once refused to go to her own daughter's wedding becuase she had left the Catholic chruch and her new church would host thr wedding...Assemblies of God. She recanted when she got deathly ill and reluctantly went 4 weeks later...

I cannot imagine living in such bondage that your lfie revolves around worrying about such stupid junk..and actually thinking YOUR way is not only better, but more righteous.

Kooky....

No thanks...

I was born and raised Catholic and after 39 years came out of it. So I know where you are coming from.

[Shonsu]

The main point is that Jesus never commanded you and I to celebrate his birth one specific day of the year.


No, but that doesn't mean we can't or that it is wrong to do so.

[Jesuslove]

We had our baby's baptism today..we're Methodists. My great aunt came...she's a die-hard NY Catholic. Our services are contemporary-- Third day songs etc etc. Tonight was mild-- soft cheesy songs...but nice. My aunt was annoyed and irritated...and asked why we didnt have it in my wife's olf Lutheran church. Obviously becuase its close to Catholic.

She once refused to go to her own daughter's wedding becuase she had left the Catholic chruch and her new church would host thr wedding...Assemblies of God. She recanted when she got deathly ill and reluctantly went 4 weeks later...

I cannot imagine living in such bondage that your lfie revolves around worrying about such stupid junk..and actually thinking YOUR way is not only better, but more righteous.

Kooky....

No thanks...
Congrats on the baptism. I recall how special my son's baptism was. I grew up around a lot of righteous Catholics. Like many others, I have since left the church.

[mat1583]

We celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday and pretty much anytime we come together in worship. So this happens on Wednesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays, etc. Closest you'll ever be to the Incarnate One on this side of eternity. I love it.

Congrats?

[mat1583]

No, but that doesn't mean we can't or that it is wrong to do so.

Jesus seemed to consistently call out the pharisees on observing certain traditions/laws that God never intentioned/commanded.

[Shonsu]

Jesus seemed to consistently call out the pharisees on observing certain traditions/laws that God never intentioned/commanded.


Yes, when they were putting their traditions ahead of God's commandments. What commandment am I breaking by observing Christmas?

[middletree]

Yes, when they were putting their traditions ahead of God's commandments. What commandment am I breaking by observing Christmas?

None. But this sub-thread started when someone associated Christmas observance with biblical essentials and commands from God to all believers. Christmas observance is fine, but not mandated by God. So a company, or even a govt, who tries to keep you from it isn't really keeping you from practicing your religion.

[mcgreen311]

None. But this sub-thread started when someone associated Christmas observance with biblical essentials and commands from God to all believers. Christmas observance is fine, but not mandated by God. So a company, or even a govt, who tries to keep you from it isn't really keeping you from practicing your religion.

Exactly!

[mat1583]

Yes, when they were putting their traditions ahead of God's commandments. What commandment am I breaking by observing Christmas?

+1 for middletree's post.

And I can't imagine Jesus would be too happy to come back and see us celebrating his birth by spending $100's on materialistic things, hanging ornaments and decorations that have pagan origins, and lying to our kids about the existence of a gluttonous, judgmental dude with apparent magical powers. Just saying - I don't think any of those things should be associated with the celebration of Jesus's birth.

[Valpo]

Congrats?

You seemed to be answering a question about communion then expounded, so I was just letting you know there are churches that celebrate it very often. Sorry?

[mat1583]

You seemed to be answering a question about communion then expounded, so I was just letting you know there are churches that celebrate it very often. Sorry?

It's not wrong to celebrate it often - we should. Our church just doesn't do it on a schedule so it doesn't become a mindless ritual (not that it's that way at your church). I know you didn't intention it to, but your post kinda came off as boastful when I first read it.

[Valpo]

It's not wrong to celebrate it often - we should. Our church just doesn't do it on a schedule so it doesn't become a mindless ritual (not that it's that way at your church). I know you didn't intention it to, but your post kinda came off as boastful when I first read it.

If boastful not in my church but boasting in Christ. The reason we do celebrate it every week is because of the "often" biblical idea and because we believe the words "Given and shed for you." So we believe Jesus is literally present in communion and there are benefits to strengthening faith in it solely because it is God coming to us.

[Howlin' Wolf]

It's not wrong to celebrate it often - we should. Our church just doesn't do it on a schedule so it doesn't become a mindless ritual (not that it's that way at your church). I know you didn't intention it to, but your post kinda came off as boastful when I first read it.
It would only become a mindless ritual at an immature church.

My old church used to celebrate communion every Sunday. I miss it.

[Shonsu]

+1 for middletree's post.

And I can't imagine Jesus would be too happy to come back and see us celebrating his birth by spending $100's on materialistic things, hanging ornaments and decorations that have pagan origins, and lying to our kids about the existence of a gluttonous, judgmental dude with apparent magical powers. Just saying - I don't think any of those things should be associated with the celebration of Jesus's birth.

I agree with you. If we take ANYTHING and make it materialistic and into something against God then of course He probably wouldn't be happy about it. That goes for a lot of things and not just celebrating Jesus' birth.

[Valpo]

It would only become a mindless ritual at an immature church.

My old church used to celebrate communion every Sunday. I miss it.

Still my favorite part of the service after all these years.

[Musicdude]

I don't get it.

Because you're on the naughty list.
I was just teasing.

[Musicdude]

The main point is that Jesus never commanded you and I to celebrate his birth one specific day of the year.

Do you think the Father, Holy Spirit and the angels celebrated Jesus' birth?

Luk 2:12 "This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luk 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."


Celebrating Jesus' birth is both right and good, and I am absolutely certain that the Father Himself did the same. So whether or not celebrating Jesus' birth is a good thing in God's eyes, is not in question here, at least not that I can tell.

The only thing is question is whether or not it is a mandate to celebrate Jesus' birth as a tradition now. I have trouble understanding what difference that makes. Who cares if it's a mandate or not. I love to celebrate Jesus' birth, his resurrection and anything else about Him. I don't need a mandate for me to rejoice in Jesus' birth.

And praising Jesus' is a very Christian thing. And that's what it boils down to to me. To the normal modern day Christian, Christmas is a time to celebrate the birth of their Savior. That's certainly what it is to me. And though I don't expect the US government to acknowledge that, and allow a holiday for it, and I don't expect businesses to make a big deal about it, and all that goes with that. I don't expect any of that, but it has been that way in America for a long time, and the more these other religions creep in, the more Christianity and things Christian creep out and get pushed aside. This is just another example, and there are many. Should I be happy to see my once predominately Christian nation (and richly blessed because of it) start to look like every other nation? Should I be glad that things that were once special to Christians are no longer that way?

I am not.

I will not fight this, but I certainly won't encourage it either. Knowing that a business has banned even the word Christmas, and shopping there anyway is in my opinion encouraging the downtrend and adding to it in a small way. I will not do that if I can help it.

[Musicdude]

Jesus seemed to consistently call out the pharisees on observing certain traditions/laws that God never intentioned/commanded.

That is completely different. None of us are saying that you as a Christian must observe Christmas. We aren't imposing our preferences on you as the pharisees did.

[Musicdude]

None. But this sub-thread started when someone associated Christmas observance with biblical essentials and commands from God to all believers. Christmas observance is fine, but not mandated by God. So a company, or even a govt, who tries to keep you from it isn't really keeping you from practicing your religion.

No, "someone" didn't. You are putting words into my mouth, and you get furious when people do that to you.

I didn't equate celebrating Christmas with other traditions which are commanded by God.

I tried to explain that an attack on Christmas has the same intent as it would if it were an attack on communion or something like that. And the unbeliever (the one doing the attacking) sees no difference. The intent of the one banning the word Christmas is evil, whether they realize it or not. I wish to not reward someone who wants to attack my beliefs with my business.

Sorry for all the posts, I'm trying to get caught up. I didn't have my computer yesterday.

[mat1583]

Do you think the Father, Holy Spirit and the angels celebrated Jesus' birth?

Luk 2:12 "This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luk 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."


Celebrating Jesus' birth is both right and good, and I am absolutely certain that the Father Himself did the same. So whether or not celebrating Jesus' birth is a good thing in God's eyes, is not in question here, at least not that I can tell.

The only thing is question is whether or not it is a mandate to celebrate Jesus' birth as a tradition now. I have trouble understanding what difference that makes. Who cares if it's a mandate or not. I love to celebrate Jesus' birth, his resurrection and anything else about Him. I don't need a mandate for me to rejoice in Jesus' birth.

And praising Jesus' is a very Christian thing. And that's what it boils down to to me. To the normal modern day Christian, Christmas is a time to celebrate the birth of their Savior. That's certainly what it is to me. And though I don't expect the US government to acknowledge that, and allow a holiday for it, and I don't expect businesses to make a big deal about it, and all that goes with that. I don't expect any of that, but it has been that way in America for a long time, and the more these other religions creep in, the more Christianity and things Christian creep out and get pushed aside. This is just another example, and there are many. Should I be happy to see my once predominately Christian nation start to look like every other nation? Should I be glad that things that were once special to Christians are no longer that way?

I am not.

I will not fight this, but I certainly won't encourage it either. Knowing that a business has banned even the word Christmas, and shopping there anyway is in my opinion encouraging the downtrend and adding to it in a small way. I will not do that if I can help it.

Perhaps you just glanced over the second half of the sentence or my other posts as well. I never said celebrating Jesus's birth is a bad thing. In fact, I said it's a good thing to do so. I will bold the important part for you...

The main point is that Jesus never commanded you and I to celebrate his birth one specific day of the year.

Let me ask you this: How exactly do you celebrate Jesus's birth? Is it by buying lots of materialistic things, decorating a Christmas tree, putting up wreaths and lights, etc? (Maybe it's not in those ways, so that's great.) While it's good to celebrate his birth, what do any of those things have to do with his birth? Nothing. Unfortunately, this is what "Christmas" in America has become - even to believers. Only a small fraction of it is really about Jesus. As an aside, it's a pet peeve of mine that the 3 kings are always in the manger scene. They were not there at his birth. Anyway...



That is completely different. None of us are saying that you as a Christian must observe Christmas. We aren't imposing our preferences on you as the pharisees did.

The reason for this thread is that the American Family Association, a group that promotes Conservative Christian values and has quite a bit of political weight, has posted a list of stores they call "naughty" or "against Christmas" on the fact that they don't use Christmas-based advertising. They are condemning these stores for not using "Christmas". This is about as close as you can get to being like the pharisees, and this is not the first time I've heard of Christian groups condemning others for not celebrating "Christmas".

Do you think there would an outcry if a Christian bookstore chose not to use "Christmas" in their marketing? Of course, something just seems wrong about a Christian store using the birth of Jesus to market their goods anyway.

[Valpo]

I think if folks did a little research on the liturgical calendar then they'd understand why December 25th a little better. Because I can definitely see how people who have no concept of a liturgical calendar would be dumbfounded as to why any one day out of the year, and a day that is definitely not Jesus' birthday, would be used to celebrate his birth.

[mat1583]

I think if folks did a little research on the liturgical calendar then they'd understand why December 25th a little better. Because I can definitely see how people who have no concept of a liturgical calendar would be dumbfounded as to why any one day out of the year, and a day that is definitely not Jesus' birthday, would be used to celebrate his birth.

I have a general understanding of the liturgical calendar. I grew up Methodist, so it was emphasized quite a bit. I'm not sure if you were just making a general observation or if it was directed toward someone in particular.

Are you boasting about the frequency at which you participate in communion or not? If you're boasting in Christ, I don't see why it should be about the frequency you participate in communion. Maybe I misunderstood.

I agree that immature churches participate in what I called mindless rituals. Ultimately, a church is immature because of the body of believers that make it up. This can happen with just about anything we do as Christians - prayers, celebrations, scripture reading, creeds, singing praise/worship, etc. When you do these things, it should have meaning in your heart, and you should be considering the implications of what you're participating in. I think the best litmus test for this is what fruits the church is producing.

[Musicdude]

Perhaps you just glanced over the second half of the sentence or my other posts as well. I never said celebrating Jesus's birth is a bad thing. In fact, I said it's a good thing to do so. I will bold the important part for you...
I didn't glance over anything. And I never said you personally said that celebrating Christ's birth is a bad thing. I was just establishing that it is unarguably a good thing, which I needed to do to make my actual point.

The main point is that Jesus never commanded you and I to celebrate his birth one specific day of the year.
And as I already asked, what difference does that make? And how does that fact make my choosing to set aside a day any less Christian an act?

Let me ask you this: How exactly do you celebrate Jesus's birth? Is it by buying lots of materialistic things, decorating a Christmas tree, putting up wreaths and lights, etc? (Maybe it's not in those ways, so that's great.) While it's good to celebrate his birth, what do any of those things have to do with his birth? Nothing. Unfortunately, this is what "Christmas" in America has become - even to believers. Only a small fraction of it is really about Jesus. As an aside, it's a pet peeve of mine that the 3 kings are always in the manger scene. They were not there at his birth. Anyway...
So giving gifts with a cheerful attitude is not a Christian thing?
We have a tree in our house, and it represents the cross.

I don't know that you can say what Christmas is to the vast majority, because you don't know their intentions, all you see is the physical stuff which you seem to have a negative attitude about. But even if that is true, and to most Christians Christmas is nothing more than a day to recieve expensive gifts, and overindulge in eating and drinking, etc, that isn't what it is to me.

My family are mostly Christians, and though there was definitely a Christian element to our Christmas celebrations when I was younger, it was never completely and totally about Jesus. Now that I am a husband and a father I plan on changing that with my family which is just starting. My daughter is too young to even know what's going on, and my son will not be born until June. So now is the time for my wife and I to establish the traditions our family will observe. And she and I are agree that they will be Christ-centered. For example we didn't celebrate halloween this year, at all. And we won't ever. I did it when I was a kid and it didn't kill me, but I don't want my family invovled in any way with halloween. We didn't criticize anyone else if they chose to celebrate it, but we opted out. In the same way, with Christmas and Easter, regardless of what the world does or doesn't do, our family will celebrate both and they will both be completely and totally about Jesus Christ.

The reason for this thread is that the American Family Association, a group that promotes Conservative Christian values and has quite a bit of political weight, has posted a list of stores they call "naughty" or "against Christmas" on the fact that they don't use Christmas-based advertising. They are condemning these stores for not using "Christmas". This is about as close as you can get to being like the pharisees, and this is not the first time I've heard of Christian groups condemning others for not celebrating "Christmas".
It is one thing to not celebrate Christmas. It's another thing to ban it. Are the employees of such stores allowed to say Merry Christmas to the customers if they choose? I don't think so.

Do you think there would an outcry if a Christian bookstore chose not to use "Christmas" in their marketing? Of course, something just seems wrong about a Christian store using the birth of Jesus to market their goods anyway.
Again, I could care less if a store wants to make an issue of Christmas, but when they ban the word, I have a problem with that. That is not neutral, it's negative.

And why is it wrong for a Christian store to sell goods for a profit? Where in the bible does it say that is wrong?

[Musicdude]

I have a general understanding of the liturgical calendar. I grew up Methodist, so it was emphasized quite a bit. I'm not sure if you were just making a general observation or if it was directed toward someone in particular.

Are you boasting about the frequency at which you participate in communion or not? If you're boasting in Christ, I don't see why it should be about the frequency you participate in communion. Maybe I misunderstood.

I agree that immature churches participate in what I called mindless rituals. Ultimately, a church is immature because of the body of believers that make it up. This can happen with just about anything we do as Christians - prayers, celebrations, scripture reading, creeds, singing praise/worship, etc. When you do these things, it should have meaning in your heart, and you should be considering the implications of what you're participating in. I think the best litmus test for this is what fruits the church is producing.

He's no more boasting than you were. I brought up the issue of communion as it applied to this topic. He explained how it was handled in his church, and you explained how it was handled in your church. It's not boasting to believe that the way your church handles it is good.

[Valpo]

I have a general understanding of the liturgical calendar. I grew up Methodist, so it was emphasized quite a bit. I'm not sure if you were just making a general observation or if it was directed toward someone in particular.

Are you boasting about the frequency at which you participate in communion or not? If you're boasting in Christ, I don't see why it should be about the frequency you participate in communion. Maybe I misunderstood.

I agree that immature churches participate in what I called mindless rituals. Ultimately, a church is immature because of the body of believers that make it up. This can happen with just about anything we do as Christians - prayers, celebrations, scripture reading, creeds, singing praise/worship, etc. When you do these things, it should have meaning in your heart, and you should be considering the implications of what you're participating in. I think the best litmus test for this is what fruits the church is producing.

Not boasting that we celebrate communion, just boasting in Christ who is very present in/at communion.

[mat1583]

I didn't glance over anything. And I never said you personally said that celebrating Christ's birth is a bad thing. I was just establishing that it is unarguably a good thing, which I needed to do to make my actual point.


And as I already asked, what difference does that make? And how does that fact make my choosing to set aside a day any less Christian an act?

The difference is when the ways in which Christ's birth are celebrated begin contradicting God's word. Giving is good, but the consumerism that has muddied the holiday seems against what God may have intentioned. Lying a about a fantastical, gluttonous Santa Clause is also quite contradictory to God's word. Putting up a tree with ornaments is quite harmless IMO, but you're the first person I've ever heard say that it represents a cross.


So giving gifts with a cheerful attitude is not a Christian thing?
We have a tree in our house, and it represents the cross.

I don't know that you can say what Christmas is to the vast majority, because you don't know their intentions, all you see is the physical stuff which you seem to have a negative attitude about. But even if that is true, and to most Christians Christmas is nothing more than a day to recieve expensive gifts, and overindulge in eating and drinking, etc, that isn't what it is to me.

You are correct. I cannot give a number on how many Christians celebrate Christmas in the way I'm talking about. It is my impression that a majority do, but hopefully I'm wrong about that.


My family are mostly Christians, and though there was definitely a Christian element to our Christmas celebrations, it was never completely and totally about Jesus. I plan on changing that with my family which is just starting. My daughter is too young to even know what's going on, and my son will not be born until June. So now is the time for my wife and I to establish the traditions our family will observe. And she and I are agree that they will be Christ-centered. For example we didn't celebrate halloween this year, at all. And we won't ever. I did it when I was a kid and it didn't kill me, but I don't want my family invovled in any way with halloween. In the same way, with Christmas and Easter, regardless of what the world does or doesn't do, our family will celebrate both and they will both be completely and totally about Jesus Christ.

I pray you will be able to keep this up and to keep it Christ-centered. This is also what my fiance and I are planning to do. I fear that we're among the few.


It is one thing to not celebrate Christmas. It's another thing to ban it. Are the employees of such stores allowed to say Merry Christmas to the customers if they choose? I don't think so.


Again, I could care less if a store wants to make an issue of Christmas, but when they ban the word, I have a problem with that. That is not neutral, it's negative.
Why do you have a problem with it? Christmas is not a God-ordained holiday and those organizations are not Christian anyway, so I see no reason why we as Christians should expect organizations to allow Christmas marketing. I think it would be a good thing for retail stores to distance themselves from Christmas as much as possible. Then hopefully it'll become less about consumerism and more about Christ. Of course this will never happen.

[mat1583]

Not boasting that we celebrate communion, just boasting in Christ who is very present in/at communion.

Gotcha. *thumbs up* - as if it matters that I give you a thumbs up or not :P

[Musicdude]

The difference is when the ways in which Christ's birth are celebrated begin contradicting God's word. Giving is good, but the consumerism that has muddied the holiday seems against what God may have intentioned. Lying a about a fantastical, gluttonous Santa Clause is also quite contradictory to God's word. Putting up a tree with ornaments is quite harmless IMO, but you're the first person I've ever heard say that it represents a cross.
I have no control over the advertising industry and how they want to commercialize Christmas. I have no control over how some families want to lie to their children and tell them that a man in a red suit is bringing them presents, and that is what Christmas is about. I have no control over what everyone does or doesn't do. I do have control of my family, and I can assure you that isn't how it is done at my home. My kids will know of who St. Nicholas was, and how the make-believe story about Santa originated. I will never tell them anything but the truth about it. I give presents to those who can't afford to give back all the time. I'm giving because I want to bless them. If I'm not mistaken the bible says "God loves the cheerful giver."

You are correct. I cannot give a number on how many Christians celebrate Christmas in the way I'm talking about. It is my impression that a majority do, but hopefully I'm wrong about that.
To quote most of our mothers, "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you?"
I'm joking, but in all seriousness what the world does or doesn't do is not my concern. I am not accountable for them. I am accountable for me and mine.

I pray you will be able to keep this up and to keep it Christ-centered. This is also what my fiance and I are planning to do. I fear that we're among the few.
Even my family doesn't completely agree, but as far as my kids are concerned they will have to respect it whether they agree or not. They see no harm in telling the kids about Santa. To me lying is lying, and it's always wrong.
Besides the truth is such an amazing story, none of the worldly substitutes can even compare anyway.


Why do you have a problem with it? Christmas is not a God-ordained holiday and those organizations are not Christian anyway, so I see no reason why we as Christians should expect organizations to allow Christmas marketing. I think it would be a good thing for retail stores to distance themselves from Christmas as much as possible. Then hopefully it'll become less about consumerism and more about Christ. Of course this will never happen.
It's not just about marketing. It's about banning the use of the word in said establishments. That is going overboard, and not only an infringement of our constitutional rights, but it is an attack on Christianity.

[middletree]

We don't do Santa, either. I mean, I lost the battle on the tree and all, but the Santa thing is one we agree on. However, we tell the kids about how other families do Santa, and how he isn't real, but some kids think he is, and my kids are great about not spoiling it for those kids, believe it or not. We don't want them to judge other families on this

We also tell them about the real St Nicholas and how he loved Jesus and other people.

[mat1583]

To quote most of our mothers, "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you?"
I'm joking, but in all seriousness what the world does or doesn't do is not my concern. I am not accountable for them. I am accountable for me and mine.

I am concerned and accountable. I am concerned about the souls of the lost and the traditions they observe, hoping that one day they will know Christ and the real 'reason for the season'. I am accountable for trying to bring those souls to Christ and bringing them to repentance by a commission from Christ.

Even more, I am greatly concerned about so-called conservative Christians who don't observe Christmas the way you do and instead emphasize consumerism, christmas trees, and santa. It's not just about the "world", but also our brothers and sisters in Christ.


It's not just about marketing. It's about banning the use of the word in said establishments. That is going overboard, and not only an infringement of our constitutional rights, but it is an attack on Christianity.
It IS about marketing.

From the AFA site:
"Based on current advertising, below is a list of companies that avoid, ban, or use the term "Christmas" in their advertising."

Nowhere on the site does it say that the company bans its employees from using "Christmas"...because as you said, it would certainly be a first amendment violation, and then they'd have a lot more than the AFA to worry about.

[Musicdude]

We don't do Santa, either. I mean, I lost the battle on the tree and all, but the Santa thing is one we agree on. However, we tell the kids about how other families do Santa, and how he isn't real, but some kids think he is, and my kids are great about not spoiling it for those kids, believe it or not. We don't want them to judge other families on this

We also tell them about the real St Nicholas and how he loved Jesus and other people.

That's cool.

I have mixed emotions about my kids not spoiling it for other kids, especially at school. I have a hard time telling my kids to shine the light of Jesus Christ on Sunday, and then on Monday morning telling them when they're at school not to let anyone know the truth about Christmas, because we don't want to offend them. I know that isn't what you're saying exactly. I'm just thinking how most view it.

I think maybe I would tell them not to overtly go and tell kids that Santa isn't real, but then if someone is talking to them about it, tell the truth.

[Musicdude]

I am concerned and accountable. I am concerned about the souls of the lost and the traditions they observe, hoping that one day they will know Christ and the real 'reason for the season'. I am accountable for trying to bring those souls to Christ and bringing them to repentance by a commission from Christ.
Even more, I am greatly concerned about so-called conservative Christians who don't observe Christmas the way you do and instead emphasize consumerism, christmas trees, and santa. It's not just about the "world", but also our brothers and sisters in Christ.
I am concerned about their salvation as well, but just because someone commercializes Christmas doesn't mean they aren't saved. My point was I am not their spiritual leader as I am with my family. I can be a good example for them, but I can't make them change their mind about Christmas.



It IS about marketing.

From the AFA site:
"Based on current advertising, below is a list of companies that avoid, ban, or use the term "Christmas" in their advertising."

Nowhere on the site does it say that the company bans its employees from using "Christmas"...because as you said, it would certainly be a first amendment violation, and then they'd have a lot more than the AFA to worry about.
Maybe I misunderstood then. But I wonder how these store owners would react if they knew their employees were wishing people merry Christmas. I don't know if that is a violation of the constitution now that I think about it. Doesn't an employer have the right to tell his employees how to deal with customers when they are on the clock?

[mcgreen311]

It IS about marketing.

From the AFA site:
"Based on current advertising, below is a list of companies that avoid, ban, or use the term "Christmas" in their advertising."

Nowhere on the site does it say that the company bans its employees from using "Christmas"...because as you said, it would certainly be a first amendment violation, and then they'd have a lot more than the AFA to worry about.

I think the AFA is deliberately using inflammatory language when they say "ban." A company's choice to not use "Christmas" in their ads is not the same as banning. They may have similar outcomes, but the reasoning behind it is not the same.

Christmas is a big money maker, but I'm sure companies want to include ALL possible consumers. It may be cheaper for them to have an inclusive or non-specific ad rather than making an ad for each holiday this time of year.

[mcgreen311]

Maybe I misunderstood then. But I wonder how these store owners would react if they knew their employees were wishing people merry Christmas. I don't know if that is a violation of the constitution now that I think about it. Doesn't an employer have the right to tell his employees how to deal with customers when they are on the clock?

It depends on how the company wants to handle it. I think I company would have a right to dictate it as much as they would have a right to say no racial slurs or no wishing everyone a happy unicorn day.

Normally this would be based on the bottom line and the customer constituency (with exceptions, I'm sure). In any case, I would say that worrying about what a company wants you to say is the wrong focus from a spiritual (not citizenship) perspective. In fact, Paul speaks a lot about submitting to powers in authority over you. If the public does not want us to say "Merry Christmas," perhaps we need to look at how we as Christians act in the world. Are we materialistic consumerists or do we share Christ's love?

Don't get me wrong, I know we will encounter opposition to the message, but I think the Christian (TM) that society sees as a whole is the judgmental/hypocritical Christian in name only.

[mat1583]

I think the AFA is deliberately using inflammatory language when they say "ban." A company's choice to not use "Christmas" in their ads is not the same as banning. They may have similar outcomes, but the reasoning behind it is not the same.

Christmas is a big money maker, but I'm sure companies want to include ALL possible consumers. It may be cheaper for them to have an inclusive or non-specific ad rather than making an ad for each holiday this time of year.

There's no doubt that it's inflammatory language... ban, naughty, etc. It seems condemning to me.

[Musicdude]

There's no doubt that it's inflammatory language... ban, naughty, etc. It seems condemning to me.

Well, the "naughty" part was obviously a Santa reference. I get that.
But when you say "ban" that to me means, the word Christmas is not welcome in your store, period. Now if a customer says merry Christmas they can't control that, but I would imagine employees are not allowed. Unless the AFA is exaggerating by using the word "ban."

[Jesuslove]

There's no doubt that it's inflammatory language... ban, naughty, etc. It seems condemning to me.

I have to agree. The AFA has a tendency to grossly exaggerate too.

[mat1583]

Well, the "naughty" part was obviously a Santa reference. I get that.
But when you say "ban" that to me means, the word Christmas is not welcome in your store, period. Now if a customer says merry Christmas they can't control that, but I would imagine employees are not allowed. Unless the AFA is exaggerating by using the word "ban."

Like I said, they only said that it's "banned" in their advertising. I believe the AFA is using this kind of inflammatory language to do exactly what happened to you - make Christians believe that a store is prohibiting the word "Christmas" to be used by their employees so that Christians will boycott these stores. Don't you think it should be the exact opposite? We should be thanking stores for not commercializing the birth of Christ and taking advantage of the consumerism that has become associated with Christmas.

[rossid]

I've recently unsubscribed from their emails.

They link to their own articles and not those that are freely available.

I no longer participate in boycotts and today speak out against anyone whose values are against the Word.

[Musicdude]

Like I said, they only said that it's "banned" in their advertising. I believe the AFA is using this kind of inflammatory language to do exactly what happened to you - make Christians believe that a store is prohibiting the word "Christmas" to be used by their employees so that Christians will boycott these stores. Don't you think it should be the exact opposite? We should be thanking stores for not commercializing the birth of Christ and taking advantage of the consumerism that has become associated with Christmas.

I don't think "commercialism" is as evil as some do.
Selling stuff with Jesus' name on it is no worse than selling bibles in my opinion. If there is a market for it, and you are selling it at a fair price, it's all good.

[mat1583]

I don't think "commercialism" is as evil as some do.
Selling stuff with Jesus' name on it is no worse than selling bibles in my opinion. If there is a market for it, and you are selling it at a fair price, it's all good.

Perhaps the Bible should always be free. The Gideons are a blessing to a lot of homeless people who literally can't afford to buy a Bible. Our church uses tithes to buy Bibles that are then given away for no price at our resource table.

[middletree]

I don't think "commercialism" is as evil as some do.
Selling stuff with Jesus' name on it is no worse than selling bibles in my opinion. If there is a market for it, and you are selling it at a fair price, it's all good.

You are correct that people should get paid for their work if they produce something of value. But when I hear people complain about commercialism regarding Christmas, I think they mean something different entirely. It's about the materialism, the greed, the envy, the 'what's in it for me?" mentality.

[Musicdude]

You are correct that people should get paid for their work if they produce something of value. But when I hear people complain about commercialism regarding Christmas, I think they mean something different entirely. It's about the materialism, the greed, the envy, the 'what's in it for me?" mentality.

I agree. That is what comes to my mind too.
But I guess I am optomistic about it. I see a mad crowd of people trying to buy the last Tickle Me Elmo doll, and I think maybe they are all really wanting to give a gift that is special to someone. And maybe it's silly that there is a line a mile long for a doll, but at the same time maybe every person in that line's heart is desiring to be a giver. What's wrong with that?

Now kids certainly can become quite selfish at Christmas time. But if they can be trained not to be selfish.

[Musicdude]

Perhaps the Bible should always be free. The Gideons are a blessing to a lot of homeless people who literally can't afford to buy a Bible. Our church uses tithes to buy Bibles that are then given away for no price at our resource table.

It's wonderful that so many bibles are given out for free. But if I want a fancy bible with a lot of extras, and I can afford it, I see no problem spending money on a bible. And though the church should give bibles out for free, I don't necessarily think Barnes and Noble should. That's not their business.

[phil_ur_friend]

What the companies' motive is is not our concern. It is not the job of Walgreens or CVS to spread the message of the arrival of Jesus. It's the job of the church.

Phillipians 1:15-18


15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Phil, your friend

[Musicdude]

Phillipians 1:15-18


15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Phil, your friend

Thank You!!!!!!!!

I have been trying to remember where that passage is for almost a year. And I didn't remember enough of it to search for it.

[middletree]

Phillipians 1:15-18


15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Phil, your friendWhat the heck does that passage have to do with anything?

[mat1583]

It's wonderful that so many bibles are given out for free. But if I want a fancy bible with a lot of extras, and I can afford it, I see no problem spending money on a bible. And though the church should give bibles out for free, I don't necessarily think Barnes and Noble should. That's not their business.

True.

[phil_ur_friend]

What the heck does that passage have to do with anything?

Motives.

It was a deeper thought; didn't mean to cause any brain discomfort. Sorry.

[middletree]

Motives.

It was a deeper thought; didn't mean to cause any brain discomfort. Sorry.

That statement is as weird as the earlier post. My brain is not in discomfort. I just don't know what you are saying. You can communicate so-called deep thoughts in a clear manner, you know. I know you can. Try harder.