Question about miscarriages...

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Miscarriages are pretty common. This I understand, but what if there's a couple who has had miscarriage after miscarriage yet continue to try. Is it morally wrong, for this couple, who knows that their offspring has very little chance of living, to continue with the intent of having a child?

[lori56]

It is certainly NOT morally wrong to seek God's design for marriage. God made us male and female to reproduce (Genesis 1:28). While it may very soon be "politically incorrect" to continue to try for children after multiple miscarriages, that is a debate for the "Hot Topics" forum.

I have seen both sides of this issue. For myself, I had four miscarriages before I carried my son to term. He is now 31 years old. I had two more miscarriages before having my daughter, who was full term, but died at 8 months old of SIDS (crib death). I continued to try for more children, but never again got pregnant.

But I have a very dear friend who has had 6 miscarriages. For her, each one caused so much pain that they stopped trying. And now, she is thinking about separating from her husband, because there has come to be no intimacy (physically) in their relationship. She feels completely abandoned because they have continued to live under the same roof, and sleep in the same bed, yet they never talk, never really communicate. We went to a marriage seminar recently and she said the only thing she could relate to in the whole seminar was when the teacher stated that many there might be there together, but so distant in their hearts that they felt divorced already. She said that was exactly how she felt. This breaks my heart, because I can see how easily it could happen.

As believers, we shoud pray for couples in these circumstances. Pray that God would reveal to them His will for their lives, and to stand with them, ready to listen should they need to talk. If you can't give them HOPE, then don't pile on more dispair, because believe me, that is what they feel.

[Jesuslove]

It is certainly NOT morally wrong to seek God's design for marriage. God made us male and female to reproduce (Genesis 1:28).

That's the mentality which is repsonsible for half a million kids being in foster care in America today. Not everyone is designed to reproduce and not everyone is designed to be a parent.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

I ask this because someone I know believes that continually trying for a child while having miscarriages is just as bad as abortion. My argument against it was that most abortions take place because they don't wish to have a baby, while miscarriages are the result of people who DO want a child, but circumstances don't allow it. His reply was that they should then try to adopt (basically what JL said) instead of risking the life of another child . He thought it was pretty selfish of couples to want their own offspring, rather than taking in one that desperately needs parents. His comment first struck me as asinine. I don't believe most couples are selfish for trying. But he did, as does JL have a good point, concerning adoption.

[cheewiee]

I ask this because someone I know believes that continually trying for a child while having miscarriages is just as bad as abortion. My argument against it was that most abortions take place because they don't wish to have a baby, while miscarriages are the result of people who DO want a child, but circumstances don't allow it. His reply was that they should then try to adopt (basically what JL said) instead of risking the life of another child . He thought it was pretty selfish of couples to want their own offspring, rather than taking in one that desperately needs parents. His comment first struck me as asinine. I don't believe most couples are selfish for trying. But he did, as does JL have a good point, concerning adoption.

So... 1, Is it immoral to have a baby, knowing that all life ends in death? I mean, we know that if we bring a child into the world it WILL die.

Of course that's not immoral. It's life.

So is it immoral to continue to try to bring life into the world, even though you may have complications with your pregnancies? No of course not, Its no more immoral than bringing a baby into the world knowing that one day, in the next 100 or so years, it is certainly going to die.

How does this compare to Abortion? It doesn't. Abortion is when we engage in an activity that leads us to an unwanted pregnancy, and rather deal with it in a responsible fashion... have it to term, and place it for adoption, we go the easy route and have the child's life ended.

If a conceved baby dies, due to no fault of the parents, then that isn't the parents fault, what abortion is, is us for convenience sake choosing to end the life of another human being. Its like someone killing their wife for the insurance pay off.

With regards to those in foster care, those are unfortunatly children of irresponsible parents... They are children of parents who made wrong choices, and are unable to have their kids live with them because of those choices.

JL's point holds argument holds about as much water as a cup with a few 9mill Holes in it.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

So... 1, Is it immoral to have a baby, knowing that all life ends in death? I mean, we know that if we bring a child into the world it WILL die.


Excellent point. One I shall bring up the next time I see him.

[Jesuslove]

With regards to those in foster care, those are unfortunatly children of irresponsible parents... They are children of parents who made wrong choices, and are unable to have their kids live with them because of those choices.

JL's point holds argument holds about as much water as a cup with a few 9mill Holes in it.

As I said in my point, not every child is wanted and not every adult is meant to be a parent. So we chatted a while back and you said you were going to adopt.... whatever happened with that... or were you just patronizing me.

[Gandalf]

As I said in my point, not every child is wanted
... which is completely irrelevant here, since the couple in question is trying to have a child because they want him. That's not to say they shouldn't consider adoption, but that's beside the point.

There's nothing at all immoral about them continuing to try to reproduce. Whether she's able to carry a pregnancy to term is in God's hands, not theirs. If He wants to take the child back to Himself before it's born, He has the right to make that decision. What they're trying to do is essentially the opposite of abortion. As cheewiee said, all life ends in death. God's command to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply, not to claim responsibility for natural deaths beyond our control, and use that as a reason to do the exact opposite.

[Jesuslove]

There's nothing at all immoral about them continuing to try to reproduce. Whether she's able to carry a pregnancy to term is in God's hands, not theirs. If He wants to take the child back to Himself before it's born, He has the right to make that decision. What they're trying to do is essentially the opposite of abortion. As cheewiee said, all life ends in death. God's command to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply, not to claim responsibility for natural deaths beyond our control, and use that as a reason to do the exact opposite.

I disagree. Just because a person is able to reproduce, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. Not everyone is meant to be or capable of being a parent. Should blind parents who are incapable of raising a child bear fruit? Probably not. Should two mentally challenged adults have children? I think that would be irresponsible. Many people are not capable of having children. Don't you agree that's God's design? I do.

[Sam!]

I disagree. Just because a person is able to reproduce, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. Not everyone is meant to be or capable of being a parent. Should blind parents who are incapable of raising a child bear fruit? Probably not. Should two mentally challenged adults have children? I think that would be irresponsible. Many people are not capable of having children. Don't you agree that's God's design? I do.

Not an irrelevant discussion, but one that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Not an irrelevant discussion, but one that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Actually, it somewhat does have to do with the topic. If one is to disallow a couple from not having a child for reasons that would place a child at risk during his development, wouldn't it be the same to prevent a couple from trying to have a child, because of the significant risk during its pre-birth development?

I still wouldn't equate it with abortion. By no means.

[Pouye]

Actually, it somewhat does have to do with the topic. If one is to disallow a couple from not having a child for reasons that would place a child at risk during his development, wouldn't it be the same to prevent a couple from trying to have a child, because of the significant risk during its pre-birth development?

I still wouldn't equate it with abortion. By no means.

I agree with Gandalf... it is still up to God. God never once punished anyone in the Scriptures for trying to have children or for reproducing. In fact, God tells us the reason for marriage:

"Didn't the LORD make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are his. And what does he want? Godly children from your union. So guard yourself; remain loyal to the wife of your youth."
Malichi 2:15-

Jesus said this, to balance it:

"Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made that way by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone who can, accept this statement.” Matthew 19:12-

There are examples of God "closing" wombs for His purposes, and examples of God "opening" wombs for His purposes. Whether or not women conceive or not is up to God. God is sovereign over such things, not human beings.

One of the biggest problems today stems from the fact that people have no longer allowed God to be sovereign over life and death, thinking that they should/do have a say in either one or both.

God is sovereign over conception, miscarriages, fetal development, birth, infancy, childhood, adolescence, adulthood, old age, and death. Life is sacred, and belongs to God. Death also belongs to God, since He holds the keys to death.

There is a time for everything. A time to be born, a time to die.

Rock

[Pouye]

Should blind parents who are incapable of raising a child bear fruit?


I know a lot of blind people who would make far more capable parents than some parents who see. I don't see anything wrong with someone blind, deaf, etc. having children, especially if they are believers in Christ.


Should two mentally challenged adults have children? I think that would be irresponsible.


That depends on what sort of support network the child(ren) would have. I don't think it would be a sin for two mentally challenged adults to have children. I've seen Downs Syndrome couples have children, and I don't think it is necessarily irresponsible. What is far more irresponsible is physically/mentally normal people having children and not being responsible parents to their children. That accounts for most of the abortions and "unwanted" babies in the world. I put "unwanted" in quotes, because God is sovereign over every "unwanted" baby on earth, and He loves each one of them.


Many people are not capable of having children. Don't you agree that's God's design? I do.

Absolutely!

Rock

[Evanescence]

As many of you know, my iwfe and I lost our first child in Sept. Its remains were buried and a uni-sex name of Shawn was given to the child...we took it very seriously.

Miraculously, we ARE PREGNANT again...got knocked up 2 months after losing him/her. In fact, today we are 19 weeks and doing great...

Myself, I would quit after probably 4-5 times. This especially if we were told and shown by doctors that it would be near im possible to conceive. The trauma to the wife and myself would be too much to bare and I wouldnt want to keep going.

But, my wife and I had an agreement going into our marriage. I was 37 and she, 32....IF...either one of us couldnt bare children..for whatever reason, the other was free to go another route. That was our agreement..and this very subject came up. Thank God..it looks like we're OK....

But, is it immoral? I don't think so. Most missscarriages occur prior to 6 months, so you have to wonder if its a sentient being at that time. Does it know it exists at that time or is it just a mass of cells and skin? This of course is the same logic the abortion people make about abortions, esp early on...but you're not aborting...but trying.

Having too many kids in an already overpopulated world? Thats a whole other story....and a complicated one...

[Gandalf]

Miraculously, we ARE PREGNANT again...
Congratulations!
Myself, I would quit after probably 4-5 times. This especially if we were told and shown by doctors that it would be near im possible to conceive. The trauma to the wife and myself would be too much to bare and I wouldnt want to keep going.
There's probably some wisdom in that; I just (like you) don't think it's right to extend that to saying that it would be immoral to keep trying.
Having too many kids in an already overpopulated world? Thats a whole other story....and a complicated one...
The planet is not overpopulated; an argument might be able to be made that the nations China and India could be, though I would say the problems there are also not due to too much life or too many people, but evil governmental and societal systems (Communism & castes, respectively) that do not manage resources well or value the lives of the people. But like you say, it's probably best left as a topic for another thread.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Congrats E!

You all have some good points. And most of you speak from personal experience if not someone you know. The other end of the argument has been coming from a college kid who's convinced he has the whole world figured out. I guess it would ultimately come down to personal preference. Like E said, how much you can handle. Concerning whether or not it's right if you the child will be at risk, after thinking about it this weekend, they always are, and in the end, it's in the hands of God. Who am I to deny right to any couple of having a child?

[cheewiee]

Congrats E!

You all have some good points. And most of you speak from personal experience if not someone you know. The other end of the argument has been coming from a college kid who's convinced he has the whole world figured out. I guess it would ultimately come down to personal preference. Like E said, how much you can handle. Concerning whether or not it's right if you the child will be at risk, after thinking about it this weekend, they always are, and in the end, it's in the hands of God. Who am I to deny right to any couple of having a child?

Remember the Baby Bathsheeba & David had as a result of their extramaritial affair?

Nathan told David that the son would die. When the son was born sickly David was beside himself with grief and anguish as he petitioned God to save the child.

He knew the child would die, as told by the prophet, and even as it seemed to come to pass through the Child's birth, and subsequent short life, David did not give up hope. He prayed earnestly for the Child. He rent his clothing hoping for God to save the child.