Pepsi products warning

[ThirdDayGirl]

Just the other day, I found out that Pepsi and some other Pepsi related companies are support in homosexuals. I called them and "protested" against their desision, telling them mainly that I was mad that they were doing that. So if anyone wants their numbers to try to get them to stop, you can just PM me on here and ill get back to you asap.

~ThirdDayGirl:)

[pamcharlie]

Pepsi supporting the gay community yipes thankfully i don't drink pepsi i will let my friends know and i am banning pepsi , we are to love the person but hate the sin

[R. Smith]

I knew there was a reason I don't like or drink Pepsi...

-R-

[Teresa79]

I really don't care. I'm still gonna drink Pepsi products.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Since I don't have an issue with folks being gay, clearly I don't have an issue with Pepsi supporting the gay community either.

Which is a good thing, considering that I've got a CostCo sized case of caffeine free diet Pepsi sitting in my pantry as we speak. :D

[R. Smith]

myself, my Church & Pastor are against gays, and gay rights. We take a hard stand against them. Which I know isn't always a easy stand for my Pastor, he had to ask a few young Ladies to leave the Church. 2 gals from our youth group started dating one another. Both my Pastor and his wife have prached against gays...

But knowing my Pastor like I do, I know it wasn't a easy thing for him to do. But its something he had to do...

[Teresa79]

They way I look at it is, you're still a person no matter who you love. And we don't have the right to judge.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

[danbos]

I believe homosexuality is a sin, but this really doesn't make a difference to me on whether I buy Pepsi products or not. If this makes a difference, we better not watch any movies either, since there's a pretty good chance that someone in the movie supports homosexuality.

[pamcharlie]

Hey as Christians we can watch movies but we must take Jesus with us and be open to anything that the holy spirit shows us and also to have discernment about what we watch and listen too, as christians we are allowed to have fun .

Oh back to the subject my pastor said in the late 90s when there were gay pastors being commissoned to lead churches my pastor said that if there was a gay pastor commissioned at our church it he would lead mass exodus out of the church and it would be over his dead body .

[HumanityisSaved]

myself, my Church & Pastor are against gays, and gay rights. We take a hard stand against them. Which I know isn't always a easy stand for my Pastor, he had to ask a few young Ladies to leave the Church. 2 gals from our youth group started dating one another. Both my Pastor and his wife have prached against gays...

But knowing my Pastor like I do, I know it wasn't a easy thing for him to do. But its something he had to do...

Imagine doctors kicking sick people out of the hospital. Oh what a healthy place they would be... but wait isn't that what hospitals are for......:confused:

[R. Smith]

my Church is a Church people love running through the mill. I live in a small town; a rumor town. I could give a long list of things I've heard about my Church, but what's the point???

If these young Ladies had stayed, it would have been like our leadership endorses gay lifes styles. We don't. I and the people of my Church stand behind my Pastor, in him asking the young Ladies to leave. Sin is sin, we hate the sin...but love the sinners.

Also, we are/were a Fresh Fire Church. We fell under the leadership of Todd Bentley. But Fresh Fire is no more, it was handed over to Todd. We took a lot of flack after Todd left his wife and kids, and we could have closed our doors. But we didn't

We moved on, preach the good word to Native Americans, help orphans in Africa, and so forth.

Say what you will about my Church...

[Howlin' Wolf]

myself, my Church & Pastor are against gays, and gay rights. We take a hard stand against them. Which I know isn't always a easy stand for my Pastor, he had to ask a few young Ladies to leave the Church. 2 gals from our youth group started dating one another. Both my Pastor and his wife have prached against gays...

But knowing my Pastor like I do, I know it wasn't a easy thing for him to do. But its something he had to do...


Your pastor sounds like a hate monger. Funny thing about christians, the sin they hate the most is usually the one they struggle with.

I should have read more of this thread before posting. Todd Bentley...that explains it all.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Imagine doctors kicking sick people out of the hospital. Oh what a healthy place they would be... but wait isn't that what hospitals are for......:confused:


You didnt know that church was not for sinners!?!? Pretty soon, we'll achieve our goal of kicking out all blacks and democrats!!

[cheewiee]

You didnt know that church was not for sinners!?!? Pretty soon, we'll achieve our goal of kicking out all blacks and democrats!!

Concepts that many believers don't get...

We are the church...
The church is not for us, it is for the world...

Non-Believers sin...
To expect people who are slaves to sin, to not sin, well thats just dumb, and retarded...

The Pharasees didn't get those concepts either... wonder what that says about the current state of the church...

[R. Smith]

It seems to me, you haven't read any of the rules of the Message boards.

Rule #1 - While debating and discussion is fine,we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. We expect you to treat everyone as you would like to be treated, with love and respect.

[cheewiee]

If these young Ladies had stayed, it would have been like our leadership endorses gay lifes styles. We don't. I and the people of my Church stand behind my Pastor, in him asking the young Ladies to leave. Sin is sin, we hate the sin...but love the sinners.

My Pastor was at the Visualite when we started the campus a couple years ago. The Visualite is a theater in uptown Charlotte, and we had a Sunday Night service there. So this lady came up to him, and before introducing herself to him, immediatley asked him his views on homosexuality. So rather than immediatley answering the question, he attempted to introduce himself, and get to know her. With each exchange of words, she kept asking him what his views of homosexuality are.

His final response was that he wasn't going to tell her. That by telling her what he knew to be truth, based in scripture, he would never have the opportunity to see her again.

He communicated to her, that there was more to her than her sin. That he saw more in her than her indescresion.

The problem with the Church, is that we see sin first, people second, when it should be the opposite. Thats not to say that we don't challenge one another, (believers) to have victory over sin, but homosexuality is no different than gossip. Quite frankly, gossip is a far greater hinderance to the work of the church, than homosexuality ever was. To be honest, if your pastor is going to out, and then kick out homosexuals, he should atleast be consistant, and do the same thing with the Betty Bluehair gossips, that wouldn't tolerate sinners sitting on the same pew as them.

[Shonsu]

They way I look at it is, you're still a person no matter who you love. And we don't have the right to judge.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


This has to be the most often misused verse. We are not to judge according to our own conceptions of right and wrong but according to the Word of God. This is called righteous judgement, and we are to exercise it. We had just better make sure that we are not committing the same sin. Here is an article on the subject: http://www.jesuscult.org/judge.htm (for those who do not like to read external links it basicly says what I just did and goes into much greater detail).

[Aussie3rddayfan]

myself, my Church & Pastor are against gays, and gay rights. We take a hard stand against them. Which I know isn't always a easy stand for my Pastor, he had to ask a few young Ladies to leave the Church. 2 gals from our youth group started dating one another. Both my Pastor and his wife have prached against gays...

But knowing my Pastor like I do, I know it wasn't a easy thing for him to do. But its something he had to do...

You make it sound like your church is out to get them. Jesus spent his time on earth not among the religious people but those whom the world shunned. I believe that homosexuality is a sin but I would be interested to hear why your pastor is showing two homosexual woman 'the door.' That just doesn't seem right. A person who practices homosexuality is no different than someone who struggles with unclean thoughts, swearing, stealing or a critical spirit. It is only the self-righteous that believe otherwise.

[R. Smith]

My Church is not out to get gays, nor is my Pastor a hate monger. These young Ladies had been attending Church for awhile, they know they word. Our Church as awhole knew they were dating, they made it very clear to us. Showing up, holding hand, making out during services. Flat out rubbing thier sin in our faces.

My Pastor had more than a few talks with them, and nothing changed. I know Church's in America and Canada are all for having gays in thier Church, even running the show. But we are not. I don't have to defend what my Pastor did. He spoke to them in love, and they came back @ us with thier sin. What say you now???

Go ahead and attack my beliefs, my morals. My Church...

And by the way. Its not just sexual sin my Pastor speaks against, its the whole ball of wax. He has spoken against gossipers, people who 'cause division, you name it.

[cheewiee]

And by the way. Its not just sexual sin my Pastor speaks against, its the whole ball of wax. He has spoken against gossipers, people who 'cause division, you name it.

Would he kick gossipers out of your church?

[R. Smith]

more than a few times last year, my Pastor preached against people who gossip. And a lot of them left on thier own. The people in my Church are very loving, supporting, and all or going for God. And we who stuck around, stand behind our Pastor and his family.

We are one of the few Church's in my hometown, that come against sin.

This will be the last thing I speak on the topic, one of the gals was a close friend of mine. Her life style built a wall between us, and we no longer talk anymore. She has attended Church for over 5 years, and she knows the difference between right and wrong. It hurt me personally to see her go, but what was done is done. But to be honest, if I had kids. I wouldn't want to go to Church and see 2 gals making out.

[The Unknown Gomer]

...I wouldn't want to go to Church and see 2 gals making out.

I personally wouldn't want to go to mass and see ANYONE making out, that would be one to file away in the "tacky tacky TACKY!" file. I'm usually okay with PDAs anywhere else, but in the middle of a sermon or during communion or something? :rolleyes: Please.

[pamcharlie]

Can i say this Let us be like Jesus in this by Loving the sinner but hating the sin and may be the gay community will come to christ when they see that us christians show Jesus's love for them by telling them that Jesus loves them .

[Aussie3rddayfan]

My Church is not out to get gays, nor is my Pastor a hate monger. These young Ladies had been attending Church for awhile, they know they word. Our Church as awhole knew they were dating, they made it very clear to us. Showing up, holding hand, making out during services. Flat out rubbing thier sin in our faces.

My Pastor had more than a few talks with them, and nothing changed. I know Church's in America and Canada are all for having gays in thier Church, even running the show. But we are not. I don't have to defend what my Pastor did. He spoke to them in love, and they came back @ us with thier sin. What say you now???

Go ahead and attack my beliefs, my morals. My Church...

And by the way. Its not just sexual sin my Pastor speaks against, its the whole ball of wax. He has spoken against gossipers, people who 'cause division, you name it.

I am not out to attack your beliefs or your church. From what I read your church seemed to be rather gung-ho about the issue. That said, it's a tricky situation and I don't know all the facts.

A question to finish: where else will they now go to hear the words of eternal life? What is the church doing to help them?

Just a thought.

[lilmikey]

I say that if the two girls were dating knowing the standards of the church and blatantly showing their perverted affection towards one another during service than the Pastor had every right to do what he did and I applaud him for it. Think about it what if guest came in and saw this mess going on?????????

Thats the problem with this neo modern church age today. We cant stand up for righteous judgment and holiness or we get accused of being unloving and uncaring, It makes me absolutely sick the way the the Church has turned a blind eye towards sin for the sake of getting along and fellow shipping with others.

What fellowship hath light with darkness and what concord have Christ with Baal?

We've seemed to have ripped that from our Bibles

[cheewiee]

I say that if the two girls were dating knowing the standards of the church and blatantly showing their perverted affection towards one another during service than the Pastor had every right to do what he did and I applaud him for it. Think about it what if guest came in and saw this mess going on?????????


Do you throw out the Betty Blue hairs who also gossip in the middle of a service?

[lilmikey]

Do you throw out the Betty Blue hairs who also gossip in the middle of a service?

what do you suggest the pastor should have done?

[cheewiee]

what do you suggest the pastor should have done?

First, I would expect all Pastors to treat all sin equally, because all sin required the same punishment.

Betty Blue Hair Gossips, are no less dangerous and cancerous to the church than a couple of chicks making out during the church... I would argue that gossip is a far more dangerous and cancerous sin then homosexuality...

but I digress...

There is certainly scriptural support for removing a "believer" from fellowship due to an unrepentant "gross" sin. We see this in 1st Corinthians. In this case the man was sleeping with his step mother. He called himself a believer and refused to acknowledge the sinfulness of his behavior.

The first thing I would have done, is found out if these girls considered themselves "Believers".

If they didn't, then I would ask them to refrain from "making out" during the services.

If they did, they would be removed from any leadership capacity that they had, and I would at that point, explain to them what scripture says about homosexuality, about victory over sin..

[kiwisongbird]

And offer them an ice cold Pepsi :)

Seriously, what would we all have to stop doing and eating and drinking and using if we didn't use anything that came from somwhere that supported something we didn't like?

The first poster didn't even say anything specific...

Many movies seems to have hidden and not so hidden agendas nowadays... maybe we should blow up our tv sets and never go to movies again and only read lame Christian novels with no substance or literary value...

Oh and while we're at it we could stop wearing any clothing from any place in Asia cos of the danger that it might be made by people who are underpaid... oh and not use any appliances made in China cos the people in the factorys don't get paid the same as in our countries...

Oh my goodness where would it stop if we truly, truly cared????

[ThirdDayGirl]

My Pastor was at the Visualite when we started the campus a couple years ago. The Visualite is a theater in uptown Charlotte, and we had a Sunday Night service there. So this lady came up to him, and before introducing herself to him, immediatley asked him his views on homosexuality. So rather than immediatley answering the question, he attempted to introduce himself, and get to know her. With each exchange of words, she kept asking him what his views of homosexuality are.

His final response was that he wasn't going to tell her. That by telling her what he knew to be truth, based in scripture, he would never have the opportunity to see her again.

He communicated to her, that there was more to her than her sin. That he saw more in her than her indescresion.

The problem with the Church, is that we see sin first, people second, when it should be the opposite. Thats not to say that we don't challenge one another, (believers) to have victory over sin, but homosexuality is no different than gossip. Quite frankly, gossip is a far greater hinderance to the work of the church, than homosexuality ever was. To be honest, if your pastor is going to out, and then kick out homosexuals, he should atleast be consistant, and do the same thing with the Betty Bluehair gossips, that wouldn't tolerate sinners sitting on the same pew as them.


Yes, when i called the companies i kept telling this one person. I have respect for the person, its the sin that i dont like.

[ThirdDayGirl]

But if we stop buying so much of it maybe they would change their minds. And if we called them they would know how we felt about it. Why not just TRY to make a difference. Thats what I wanted to do. Make a difference for God.

[cheewiee]

Yes, when i called the companies i kept telling this one person. I have respect for the person, its the sin that i dont like.

How will your boycott help people become passionate followers of Jesus?

[rossid]

I boycotted Kraft, then Ford, and will share my opinions when I think it is pertinent.

Now Pepsi. Not that I've lost hope but this is just to be expected in this society.

[ThirdDayGirl]

How will your boycott help people become passionate followers of Jesus?


When i called them i also gave out 2 scriptures. Maybe that made an inpact. Its not my decision to make them follow Christ, but maybe i could have helped "water or sow a seed". I dont know if God is dealing with them right now or if He will in 5 years, I just know that i did my best and thats all I can do.

[cheewiee]

When i called them i also gave out 2 scriptures. Maybe that made an inpact. Its not my decision to make them follow Christ, but maybe i could have helped "water or sow a seed". I dont know if God is dealing with them right now or if He will in 5 years, I just know that i did my best and thats all I can do.

So by calling and voicing your displeasure with Pepsi, may have made an impact.... The question remains, how will your boycott make passionate followers of Christ?

[Howlin' Wolf]

But if we stop buying so much of it maybe they would change their minds. And if we called them they would know how we felt about it. Why not just TRY to make a difference. Thats what I wanted to do. Make a difference for God.

what an incredible waste of time and energy.

Your call made no difference. If anything, it made the church less relevant, and the poor guy on the phone probably had a good laugh at your expense in the break room, which undoubtedly led to he and his co-workers lumping normal christians in with over zealous judgemental evanglical fanatical whackjobs. Thanks alot!!

Oh, and do yourself a favor and watch the movie "Saved".

[ThirdDayGirl]

Its not a waste of energy if God was the One who gave me the corage to even speak to those people. Who knows if it made a difference or not? Like I keep trying to tell you all: It's up to God what He wants to do. Whats wrong with trying to do something good in your spare time anyways, nothing was wasted! I even had someone transfer me to the Manager. I could tell she actually CARED about what i had to say. She wrote down the scriptures I gave her and everything! The reason I put up this thread was not to start a fight, but to inform people. I dont care if I got laughed at, we as Christains are a peculiar people. It doesnt matter what the world thinks of us.

"You may all call me crazy,
for the things that i might do.
And you can laugh all you want to......."

Do YOURSELF a favor and listen to Come Together.

[mcgreen311]

The bone of contention in this thread is a philosophical one in regards to how we share our faith. Do we legislate it/share it through boycotts, or do we share it by forming relationships with people? In my personal opinion, one can get a lot more accomplished by establishing a relationship with someone rather than dictating how a random stranger, as a non-Christian, should act. The second option might change their behavior, but not necessarily their hearts and serves to create "white-washed tombs," as Jesus says (via the KJV, anyway).

As others have stated, we'd have to start boycotting a whole lot of things if this is going to be our method of operation. I think we would quite literally have to go an Amish-like route, eschewing anything related to non-Christian things. Then we would only be further separated from the world, but physically rather than spiritually. And how can we interact with the world to witness if all we do is create this Christian subculture bubble where none of us ever has to venture out?

I, like others, also take issue with the fact that homosexuality is ALWAYS singled out. How many of us watch shows or movies that depict premarital sex in a positive light and glaze over it? How many of us gossip, which IMO is the trademark Christian sin? Instead (general) we pick out one sin and decide it is the most abhorrent, and it is the one that we attack the most. Guess what? I can be judgmental and conceited, pointing out specks in others' eyes while navigating around the plank in my own eye. Should I be boycotted as well?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Its not a waste of energy if God was the One who gave me the corage to even speak to those people. Who knows if it made a difference or not? Like I keep trying to tell you all: It's up to God what He wants to do. Whats wrong with trying to do something good in your spare time anyways, nothing was wasted! I even had someone transfer me to the Manager. I could tell she actually CARED about what i had to say. She wrote down the scriptures I gave her and everything! The reason I put up this thread was not to start a fight, but to inform people. I dont care if I got laughed at, we as Christains are a peculiar people. It doesnt matter what the world thinks of us.

"You may all call me crazy,
for the things that i might do.
And you can laugh all you want to......."

Do YOURSELF a favor and listen to Come Together.

If you want to do something good with your spare time, try being a friend to homosexuals!

Do yourself a FAVOR and listen to THICKFREAKNESS by the Black Keys.

[cheewiee]

The bone of contention in this thread is a philosophical one in regards to how we share our faith. Do we legislate it/share it through boycotts, or do we share it by forming relationships with people? In my personal opinion, one can get a lot more accomplished by establishing a relationship with someone rather than dictating how a random stranger, as a non-Christian, should act. The second option might change their behavior, but not necessarily their hearts and serves to create "white-washed tombs," as Jesus says (via the KJV, anyway).

As others have stated, we'd have to start boycotting a whole lot of things if this is going to be our method of operation. I think we would quite literally have to go an Amish-like route, eschewing anything related to non-Christian things. Then we would only be further separated from the world, but physically rather than spiritually. And how can we interact with the world to witness if all we do is create this Christian subculture bubble where none of us ever has to venture out?

I, like others, also take issue with the fact that homosexuality is ALWAYS singled out. How many of us watch shows or movies that depict premarital sex in a positive light and glaze over it? How many of us gossip, which IMO is the trademark Christian sin? Instead (general) we pick out one sin and decide it is the most abhorrent, and it is the one that we attack the most. Guess what? I can be judgmental and conceited, pointing out specks in others' eyes while navigating around the plank in my own eye. Should I be boycotted as well?

Well said... The unrepentant sin of gossip by Betty Blue hair who sits in the third pew is just as (if not more) dangerous than homosexuality. But we seem to find that to be our pet sin that we like to target. Perhaps its because the conservative party recognizes and uses that like a carrot to evangelical voters, to get us to vote their way?!

[Howlin' Wolf]

Well said... The unrepentant sin of gossip by Betty Blue hair who sits in the third pew is just as (if not more) dangerous than homosexuality. But we seem to find that to be our pet sin that we like to target. Perhaps its because the conservative party recognizes and uses that like a carrot to evangelical voters, to get us to vote their way?!

exactly

[Valpo]

A good and balanced view to look at sin would be for everyone to take a look at Luther's Small Catechism and his explanation of the ten commandments. Yeah homosexuality is a sin and an abomination, but so is neglecting the poor.

On the left side for those of you so inclined you can click on and go directly to the Ten Commandments section:

http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencom mandments

[mcgreen311]

As a general and somewhat lighthearted comment, I will say that Betty doesn't always have to have blue hair. Sometimes she has brown or blond or red hair. And sometimes her name is actually Billy.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Its not a waste of energy if God was the One who gave me the corage to even speak to those people. Who knows if it made a difference or not? Like I keep trying to tell you all: It's up to God what He wants to do. Whats wrong with trying to do something good in your spare time anyways, nothing was wasted! I even had someone transfer me to the Manager. I could tell she actually CARED about what i had to say. She wrote down the scriptures I gave her and everything! The reason I put up this thread was not to start a fight, but to inform people...

Like I said before, I don't have a beef with Pepsi about this, so I won't be doing any complaining. But if someone feels strongly enough about an issue like this one, why NOT contact them about it and personally boycott the product? No, it may not have any effect whatsoever, except the one it has on yourself knowing that you didn't just sit on your duff and accept the way they do business. And yeah, they'll still BE in business, but you'll know none of your hard earned dollars is going to support something you don't believe in. And no, I can't imagine anyone being able to boycott EVERY product that one might have an issue with, but who says you have to? If you can take a stand about one thing, then take it about one thing. If you can do two, then do two. :) Heck, people come together in DROVES to sign petitions to get TV shows back on the air, and THAT actually WORKS. Behold! The power of Television! :rolleyes:

My own personal boycotts? I don't eat veal or lamb, and feel incredibly guilty every time I open up a can of Hormel Chili ;) . I haven't gassed up my car at an Exxon station since they dumped all that oil in Alaska back in '89, and at least TRY to avoid buying products made in China, for more reasons I can count. And I haven't used a Gillette product in YEARS. Again, none of my actions have put anyone out of business, but at least I know I'm not supporting them in any way.

(Pssst... I read someplace that companies take complaints more seriously if they're actually written down, vs just a phone call. Email is better than the phone, and snail mail is better than email, if you know where to send it. Just a thought. :) )

As a general and somewhat lighthearted comment, I will say that Betty doesn't always have to have blue hair. Sometimes she has brown or blond or red hair. And sometimes her name is actually Billy.

LOL. :D

[mcgreen311]

Like I said before, I don't have a beef with Pepsi about this, so I won't be doing any complaining. But if someone feels strongly enough about an issue like this one, why NOT contact them about it and personally boycott the product? No, it may not have any effect whatsoever, except the one it has on yourself knowing that you didn't just sit on your duff and accept the way they do business. And yeah, they'll still BE in business, but you'll know none of your hard earned dollars is going to support something you don't believe in. And no, I can't imagine anyone being able to boycott EVERY product that one might have an issue with, but who says you have to? If you can take a stand about one thing, then take it about one thing. If you can do two, then do two. :) Heck, people come together in DROVES to sign petitions to get TV shows back on the air, and THAT actually WORKS. Behold! The power of Television! :rolleyes:


I was trying to think of a way to sort of say this, so thanks for picking up those psychic thoughts I was throwing out a few minutes ago.

[The Unknown Gomer]

I was trying to think of a way to sort of say this, so thanks for picking up those psychic thoughts I was throwing out a few minutes ago.

You're welcome. :P Glad I could be your own personal "psychic thought channeler" for the evening.

[ThirdDayGirl]

If you want to do something good with your spare time, try being a friend to homosexuals!

Do yourself a FAVOR and listen to THICKFREAKNESS by the Black Keys.

I dont care to be a Friend with one, the nicer you are the more Jesus will shine through. Would you sit back and watch someone take everything in your house? No! You would try to do something! When i called in "protest" I told them, "I dont have a problem with the people, I just dont like the sin". Calling those people was my something, I will not sit back and watch something happening when i can do something

I will be a friend with a homosexual if God lays it apon my heart to do so. Then I could be a witness. If you just stay around those kind of people all the time, you're going to start to act the same way as them, so unless God tells you to be a friend to a homosexual, I think it wouldn't be a good idea to just be nice and act as a Christian should.

I will stand firm no matter what anyone tells me, God is who I'm listeninhg to.

[mcgreen311]

Mark 2, courtesy of the NASB. Bolding mine.

14 As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting in the tax booth, and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him. 15And it happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many of them, and they were following Him. 16When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, "Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?" 17And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

I think this is a profound statement, and one of my favorite aspects of the gospel. Jesus did what is unthinkable for me to do in that he loved everyone. I didn't say that he condoned what they did, but that he loved. How do we show love? How do we establish credibility with people we wish to reach? By getting with them and letting them know we care, not that we are God's personal messengers of judgment. Now, that might come off as soft on sin, but it is not my job to convict. It is the Holy Spirit's.

I think the "something" we can do is to reach out in love. And that is even harder.

[Shonsu]

You make it sound like your church is out to get them. Jesus spent his time on earth not among the religious people but those whom the world shunned. I believe that homosexuality is a sin but I would be interested to hear why your pastor is showing two homosexual woman 'the door.' That just doesn't seem right. A person who practices homosexuality is no different than someone who struggles with unclean thoughts, swearing, stealing or a critical spirit. It is only the self-righteous that believe otherwise.


Well, the bible can't be much more clear than this:


Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. (1 Cor 5:6-7)

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral.. (1 Cor 5:11)

Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person." (1 Cor 5:12-13)


Someone who is within the church knows better. And if they knowingly and blatantly continue in sexual immorality even after it is pointed out to them then the church must put them out.

[Valpo]

Mark 2, courtesy of the NASB. Bolding mine.



I think this is a profounf statement, and one of my favorite aspects of the gospel. Jesus did what is unthinkable for me to do in that he loved everyone. I didn't say that he condoned what they did, but that he loved. How do we show love? How do we establish credibility with people we wish to reach? By getting with them and letting them know we care, not that we are God's personal messengers of judgment. Now, that might come off as soft on sin, but it is not my job to convict. It is the Holy Spirit's.

I think the "something" we can do is to reach out in love. And that is even harder.

110%...great post!

[princess1087]

watching a movie with a gay supporting or gay actor/actress is one thing. buying products that support their "cause" is another. we are not to support or condone such actions. I have 2 gay friends. they are very dear to me and it hurt a great deal when one of them came out and told me he was gay. I told him that I do not support his actions nor do I condone it, but that doesn't stop him from being my friend.
I don't think that allowing a lesbian couple to remain in the youth group is a good idea because it is showing the other youth that we are condoning it.
When youths from our church were into drugs, theft, and premarital sex and stated that they had no intentions of changing their ways (though they'd been with us for 3 years) we had no choice but to separate them from the church. For one, they went for the status and not because they wanted to go for worship and two, they were being a bad influence on our younger youth that were just coming into the youth group. isn't there a scripture that says "if a part of the body offends you, remove it from you" or something like that. if it's a repetitive offense rather than a mistake, I don't see the point in letting it go on to possibly corrupt the rest of the body. If they'd repent and make an effort to "go and sin no more" then, I'd understand them staying in the church, but after 2 years, they should know better. my friend should know better considering he was a christian for many years. Now that I know this and he tells me not to live my lifestyle as a christian around him, I've had no choice but to stop talking and hanging out with him. He choses to act upon his lifestyle around me, so why shouldn't I? it's not judging. I can't say he's going to hell for it. that's for god to decide. I can tell him what he's doing is wrong. just like I tell my brothers who are theives that they are wrong in their actions and I do not support them in it.

so no, I will no longer support gay rights by supporting the pepsi company. they've lost my business.

[princess1087]

what an incredible waste of time and energy.

Your call made no difference. If anything, it made the church less relevant, and the poor guy on the phone probably had a good laugh at your expense in the break room, which undoubtedly led to he and his co-workers lumping normal christians in with over zealous judgemental evanglical fanatical whackjobs. Thanks alot!!

Oh, and do yourself a favor and watch the movie "Saved".

david fighting goliath was not an incredible waste of energy despite the fact that everyone else said it would be. why are you being so cruel to her. she's not condemning anyone in particular. she's chosing not to support a company that is supporting sin. it's like chosing not to support websites that support pedophilia or necrophilia. or chosing not to support porn, which is adultery. it's like not supporting companies that sponsor partial birth abortions or not sponsoring drug trafficking or human slavery. are we judging people for not supporting them either? the only reason it's such a big deal now not to support or condone homosexuality is because it's a part of "every day life" now. just like drugs and alcohol use to be a big deal along with premarital sex. now it's all condoned by the media, so we're all in the wrong for not supporting it because somehow in today's society, that means we're passing judgement on everyone and their mom for it. not tollerating a sinful act in your household isn't judging or condemning the person that does it. I have a lot of friends that smoke (which is self inflicted bodily harm, which I consider sinful) and I tell them I do not tollerate it at my house, so they respect me for it and don't smoke when they come over. I don't judge them, nor do I repeatedly nag on them. I just make it known that I don't condone it.
because we have to support homosexuality, does that mean we also have to support pedophiliacs as well? you become a parent and tell me whether or not you would support such a lifestyle.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Well, the bible can't be much more clear than this:


Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. (1 Cor 5:6-7)

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral.. (1 Cor 5:11)

Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person." (1 Cor 5:12-13)


Someone who is within the church knows better. And if they knowingly and blatantly continue in sexual immorality even after it is pointed out to them then the church must put them out.

You should read the entire thread before jumping to conclusions my friend.

I posted this not too long after...

I am not out to attack your beliefs or your church. From what I read your church seemed to be rather gung-ho about the issue. That said, it's a tricky situation and I don't know all the facts.

A question to finish: where else will they now go to hear the words of eternal life? What is the church doing to help them?

Just a thought.

I have thrown out the challenge. Who will answer?

[mcgreen311]

watching a movie with a gay supporting or gay actor/actress is one thing. buying products that support their "cause" is another.

But, by paying money to watch the movie, are you not providing them income and thus supporting them so that they could work on their "cause"?

[mcgreen311]

I figured this thread could use some linkies for citation purposes. :)

http://www.pepsico.com/Search.aspx?q=gay%20right s

[The Unknown Gomer]

But, by paying money to watch the movie, are you not providing them income and thus supporting them so that they could work on their "cause"?

You'd actually be providing the movie studio with income, unless the actor/actress gets any percentage of the ticket sales. And even if they did, that's still income for the actor/actress to live on, not necessarily something that they're going to put to a gay "cause". Like JesusLove said in another thread, not everyone who is gay is a gay activist. Some folks just want to live their lives and NOT spend their time doing protests, or rallies, or parades, or anything like that.

[Shonsu]

You should read the entire thread before jumping to conclusions my friend.

I posted this not too long after...



I have thrown out the challenge. Who will answer?



I'm sorry for jumping back to an earlier part of the thread. I did read the whole thing but felt compelled to speak up on that particular subject.

Now, about what you said about where they will now go to hear the words of eternal life. The church they were in told them the words they need to know and they chose to reject it. What further word do they need? If they go to another church, they should hear the same thing unless they go somewhere where they have a leader that likes to "tickle their ears".

[mcgreen311]

You'd actually be providing the movie studio with income, unless the actor/actress gets any percentage of the ticket sales. And even if they did, that's still income for the actor/actress to live on, not necessarily something that they're going to put to a gay "cause". Like JesusLove said in another thread, not everyone who is gay is a gay activist. Some folks just want to live their lives and NOT spend their time doing protests, or rallies, or parades, or anything like that.

Yeah, I was probably stretching the devil's advocate thing a little too far. But theoretically...;)

[kiwisongbird]

As a general and somewhat lighthearted comment, I will say that Betty doesn't always have to have blue hair. Sometimes she has brown or blond or red hair. And sometimes her name is actually Billy.

Thank you so very much.... wasn't sure how to say that without sounding really p***ed off!!

The biggest gossip I know is a young guy called Alex!!!!!!!

[kiwisongbird]

Help, please, please help me.... no one has actually said what Pepsi has done.... what did they do? How did they show that they support these sinners??? How can we figure out which companies do this anyway? How can we know that the information we have is correct?

Should I go up to every ladyboy (man dressed as a woman) I see here in Thailand and tell them what they are doing is wrong? Or should I just buy them a Pepsi and show them some love? I'm so confused!!!!

Help me, help me... :eek: :eek:

[kiwisongbird]

Hey, sorry about my last post, a little manic...

I've read a little about Pepsi, it seems to me that they are into ensuring that there is no discrimination in their company against anyone, including gay and lesbian people - they worked very hard to ensure that women get equal opportunities as well... I'm open to hearing more if there is more, but if that's all it is, then good on them for not discriminating against people merely because of how they choose to live their lives, hopefully it includes Christians as well... :)

[ThirdDayGirl]

Help, please, please help me.... no one has actually said what Pepsi has done.... what did they do? How did they show that they support these sinners??? How can we figure out which companies do this anyway? How can we know that the information we have is correct?

Should I go up to every ladyboy (man dressed as a woman) I see here in Thailand and tell them what they are doing is wrong? Or should I just buy them a Pepsi and show them some love? I'm so confused!!!!

Help me, help me... :eek: :eek:

one website that you can go to is: www.afa.net

someother companies are :
Cambles
Swanson Broth
FritoLays
Tropicana
Gatorade
Quaker Oats

those are all companies that are in it with Pepsie. They gave 1,000 dollars towards something to do with them. They tried to brain wash me and tell me that it was for just respect (but that was what the people are told to say), not just for homosexuals, but for everyone to have respect on the workplace, but we all should know that the main money is going to the homosexuals.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I dont care to be a Friend with one, the nicer you are the more Jesus will shine through. Would you sit back and watch someone take everything in your house? No! You would try to do something! When i called in "protest" I told them, "I dont have a problem with the people, I just dont like the sin". Calling those people was my something, I will not sit back and watch something happening when i can do something

I will be a friend with a homosexual if God lays it apon my heart to do so. Then I could be a witness. If you just stay around those kind of people all the time, you're going to start to act the same way as them, so unless God tells you to be a friend to a homosexual, I think it wouldn't be a good idea to just be nice and act as a Christian should.

I will stand firm no matter what anyone tells me, God is who I'm listeninhg to.

So God has to lay it on your heart to befriend a sinner?

WOW!

I dont think you're listening to God at all.

[Howlin' Wolf]

david fighting goliath was not an incredible waste of energy despite the fact that everyone else said it would be. why are you being so cruel to her. she's not condemning anyone in particular. she's chosing not to support a company that is supporting sin. it's like chosing not to support websites that support pedophilia or necrophilia. or chosing not to support porn, which is adultery. it's like not supporting companies that sponsor partial birth abortions or not sponsoring drug trafficking or human slavery. are we judging people for not supporting them either? the only reason it's such a big deal now not to support or condone homosexuality is because it's a part of "every day life" now. just like drugs and alcohol use to be a big deal along with premarital sex. now it's all condoned by the media, so we're all in the wrong for not supporting it because somehow in today's society, that means we're passing judgement on everyone and their mom for it. not tollerating a sinful act in your household isn't judging or condemning the person that does it. I have a lot of friends that smoke (which is self inflicted bodily harm, which I consider sinful) and I tell them I do not tollerate it at my house, so they respect me for it and don't smoke when they come over. I don't judge them, nor do I repeatedly nag on them. I just make it known that I don't condone it.
because we have to support homosexuality, does that mean we also have to support pedophiliacs as well? you become a parent and tell me whether or not you would support such a lifestyle.

seriously...did you just lump homosexuality in with pedophilia?

Boycotting a company does absolutely nothing. Its a total waste of time. But christians like to pat themselves on the back because they feel they are taking some sort of stand for Jesus by boycotting a product. Take a stand for Jesus and live the word out in a manner that will bring sinner's to him.

by the way, your post reaked of arrogance. What sins do you condone since you, yourself are a sinner like everyone else?

[The Unknown Gomer]

one website that you can go to is: www.afa.org

:confused: The Air Force Association? That's where your link took me.

...They tried to brain wash me and tell me that it was for just respect (but that was what the people are told to say), not just for homosexuals, but for everyone to have respect on the workplace, but we all should know that the main money is going to the homosexuals.

So they actually came right out and told you that that they were only saying that because they were being told to say it, and that the main money was actually going to support the gays? Or are you just assuming that that's what is going on?

[kiwisongbird]

oh well, can't say all I want to say, my post would get deleted...
don't be too hard on third day girl...
it's hard when you're trying to do what you think God is asking you to do and get slammed for it... believe me - I know...
being friends with homosexuals isn't something you tell your financial supporters about usually... can tend to end up losing support... so I just talk about singing in a choir and about mixing with non-believers...

sure homosexuality seems at times to be more 'acceptable' than it used to be, but seriously.... men used to get put in jail for being openly homosexual - then we can all guess what happened to them in there can't we? Was that right????

women used to belong to their husbands, anything they owned when they were single automatically became their husbands and if they left him (which they mostly didn't) they would lose everything.... Was that right????

There are many things that have been a part of pendulum swings... homosexuality seems to be the one that has swung lately... not sure still what you're talking about when you say Pepsi should be boycotted but if it's because they give everyone, including homosexuals equal employment opportunities - then good on them.... guess they have got the not judging stuff working better than some of us do...

Where would many of us women be now if all that weird stuff hadn't happened in the 60s and 70s to give women 'equal rights' - which we still don't really have - look at pay for elementary teachers and nurses which are still mainly female jobs....

Oops, sorry off on a tangent... see ya!

[mcgreen311]

:confused: The Air Force Association? That's where your link took me.

I assume that was supposed to be afa.net (The American Family Association), but ThirdDayGirl can clarify.

The link I posted earlier, by the way, was a search on Pepsi's website on "gay rights." It pulled a few press releases about what they mean by support.

[kiwisongbird]

Once again, I cannot say a word... :eek:

[ThirdDayGirl]

sorry, it's www.afa.net i fixed my other post w/ it on, so now it should take you to the right place.

[ThirdDayGirl]

So God has to lay it on your heart to befriend a sinner?

WOW!

I dont think you're listening to God at all.

Let me re-word that so you can understand me better. I will befriend a sinner but I would ask for God's deriction on everything. I don't want to get in a bad situation.

[kiwisongbird]

If you're as young as you look, that's probably not a bad idea...

Lone Wolf - I do agree with you though - there are times that we just befriend people because they are people and they are there... different levels of friendship occur - my gay friends are my friends away from my family - I know all gays are not pedophiles, in fact most are not, but here in Chiang Mai many are so having three boys makes me a little guarded.. also don't really want the boys to be exposed to the 'normalness' of it all at their tender ages... I did a quiz once that told me what Lord of the Rings character I am - I'm a Hobbit apparently - I'm friends with everyone until they give me reason not to be and then I'll try to make friends with them again!!!!!!!!!

[The Unknown Gomer]

sorry, it's www.afa.net i fixed my other post w/ it on, so now it should take you to the right place.

Thanks for fixing.

'Course, now that I've seen it, I was on and off the site in about 10 seconds, and won't be going back. Took about half that time to find stuff written as fact that was clearly more editorial in nature.

Maybe the Air Force site was the better link. ;)

By the way, did you see my comment about snail mail (vs a phone call, vs email) being the best way to get a point across to companies? It may still not have an effect, but it gives them something tangible to file away in its complaint file. Much easier to forget about a phone call or delete an email.

[Genna14]

Here's something that ought to cause a great amount of debate here.

I am bisexual.

And you know what? I DID NOT CHOOSE THIS FOR MYSELF. Being gay or bisexual is NOT a choice one makes, I know this for a fact becuase you know what I've been attracted to other girls since the age of 10.

Ok so go ahead and condemn me all you want but just because I'm bi, doesn't mean I practice it.

Now had I made the choice to date another girl *and believe me, I have been given the choice*, THAT would be sinning.

Either way, wouldn't it do us all good to accept homosexuals into our churches and our lives instead of throwing them out?? Only three people know about my sexual orientation because I know for a fact my friends would never stand for it and they would tell me that I can't be this way anymore. Its not something that can be changed.

But go ahead, condemn me all you want. I'm here to stand up as a part of the gay community and to say that if you're here to say that being gay is a choice, you are wrong.

Now like I said before if I was dating another girl, that would be a sin but I'm not and simply being the way I am is not a sin.

Now you have it.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Here's something that ought to cause a great amount of debate here.

I am bisexual.

And you know what? I DID NOT CHOOSE THIS FOR MYSELF. Being gay or bisexual is NOT a choice one makes, I know this for a fact becuase you know what I've been attracted to other girls since the age of 10.

Ok so go ahead and condemn me all you want but just because I'm bi, doesn't mean I practice it.

Now had I made the choice to date another girl *and believe me, I have been given the choice*, THAT would be sinning.

Either way, wouldn't it do us all good to accept homosexuals into our churches and our lives instead of throwing them out?? Only three people know about my sexual orientation because I know for a fact my friends would never stand for it and they would tell me that I can't be this way anymore. Its not something that can be changed.

But go ahead, condemn me all you want. I'm here to stand up as a part of the gay community and to say that if you're here to say that being gay is a choice, you are wrong.

Now like I said before if I was dating another girl, that would be a sin but I'm not and simply being the way I am is not a sin.

Now you have it.

No one is looking to condemn you, Genna.

Instead of us debating this issue, might I suggest you back up your argument using Scripture? Does the Bible support your argument that 'there is nothing wrong with bisexual behaviour and that there is nothing I can do about it'?

[kiwisongbird]

Hey Genna babe,
Good on you for making Godly choices little sister. Must be really hard sometimes.
Hugs from Thailand :)

[Sam!]

No one is looking to condemn you, Genna.

Instead of us debating this issue, might I suggest you back up your argument using Scripture? Does the Bible support your argument that 'there is nothing wrong with bisexual behaviour and that there is nothing I can do about it'? I'm interested to see where you find biblical condemnation for finding somebody attractive.

[sandie]

This thread is up to page six, and, like Sharon, I'm wondering what Pepsi has done, as it has not been specified. I looked at the AFA site, and checked the link to the "condescending" letter back from Pepsi. I cannot for the life of me work out what is condescending about this reply. I'd describe it as a polite letter of reply.

From the AFA site:


Below are transcripts of letters between AFA and Pepsico:


Letter to PepsiCo Chairman Indra K. Nooyi from Donald E. Wildmon (October 14, 2008):

Recently we noticed that PepsiCo gave a $500,000 donation to Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. We were indeed surprised by PepsiCo’s support of the homosexual group. It would appear to us that PepsiCo would not involve itself in a political and culture war, especially supporting an organization seeking to redefine marriage and family.

We ask PepsiCo to remain neutral in this culture war, neither supporting nor opposing the homosexual agenda.

We would like to discuss this matter with PepsiCo. Would you have a representative of PepsiCo contact us?



Response from Paul Boykas, director, public policy to Donald E. Wildmon (November 18, 2008):

I’m responding to your letter to our Chairman. In 2008, the PepsiCo Foundation awarded a grant to Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays to support a national program specifically designed for workplace environments.

The initiative seeks to promote further understanding and equality in the places where people spend much of their time at work.

Among the values promoted by the PepsiCo Foundation is ensuring a work environment that is respectful and where associates are valued for their contributions. I hope this helps clarify this grant by the PepsiCo Foundation.


American Family Association – Tupelo, MS 38803 www.afa.net


In Australia, people in the workplace have basic human rights. They cannot be discriminated against on the grounds of age, disability, religion, race, color, gender, sexual orientation, and probably other human rights which I cannot think of at the moment. In the USA, is discrimination against a person allowed on grounds such as sexual orientation? :confused:


As a teacher, I will not accept comments or actions against any student because of sexual orientation. (I can only remember one instance where I have cautioned a class because the comments made about a particular student, and the comments stopped.) As a Director of Studies, I will not accept any comments or actions against any students or staff members because of sexual orientation, or any other criteria which might lead to them being discriminated against. Sexual orientation is irrelevant to the ability of a student to complete their course, or to the ability of a teacher to teach a course. When interviewing a teacher for a position at the college, I am not allowed to ask a teacher about their sexual orientation, as it is irrelevant to the fulfilment of their teaching duties.

[ThirdDayGirl]

I'm interested to see where you find biblical condemnation for finding somebody attractive.


Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."

1 Chorinthians 6:9
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Bet not deceived : neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminante, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

(effeminante means homosexuals)

God made women for men, not men for men or women for women. It's just that simple. Pepsie gave money to support the sin, and i think thats wrong. Thats what's goin' on.

Like I said before, I didn't start this thread so there could be a fight, i did it so people could be aware of it.

[Valpo]

third day girl--you do realize fornication, being an adulterer, and lying with means action and not simple attraction, right?

can a repentant yet struggling person who is attracted to people of the same gender serve the church?

[ThirdDayGirl]

^ Yes i do realize that. I put those verses on there to prove my point.

[sandie]

Leviticus 18:22
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."

1 Chorinthians 6:9
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Bet not deceived : neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminante, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

(effeminante means homosexuals)

God made women for men, not men for men or women for women. It's just that simple. Pepsie gave money to support the sin, and i think thats wrong. Thats what's goin' on.

Like I said before, I didn't start this thread so there could be a fight, i did it so people could be aware of it.

Did Pepsi put money in to support homosexual sex? People don't often have sex on the job. (There is only one industry I can think of where it will be part of the statement of duties.) Or, did they put money in to support human rights (anti-discrimination) in the workplace? That is entirely a different issue. It is also an entirely a different issue to the treatment of gay and homosexual people within the church, which should be a separate thread.

I would still like an answer to this question:

In the USA, is discrimination against a person allowed on grounds such as sexual orientation? :confused:

Surely someone here knows the answer.

[mcgreen311]

I would still like an answer to this question:

In the USA, is discrimination against a person allowed on grounds such as sexual orientation? :confused:

Surely someone here knows the answer.

I'll take a stab at it. No, but I'm not sure how it applies to churches and the like.

There have also been stories where suits have been brought against companies for refusing to serve customers on those grounds.

[sandie]

Thanks for the info. Anyone else?

[cheewiee]

Thanks for the info. Anyone else?

There was a guy who ran a business that did video duplicating services. Two ladies who wanted their commitment ceremony recorded, asked him to do it. He refused, and was sued. They won, he had to pay them money, and make the tape.

Does God care about sin? Well, the answer to that question is a resounding yes, because if he didn't then Christ wouldn't have had to die.

So, what do we do about it? Sin that is? I mean, God does care about it, scripture clearly says it seperates man from God.

Someone earlier quoted...

Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. (1 Cor 5:6-7)

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral.. (1 Cor 5:11)

Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person." (1 Cor 5:12-13)

and then stated...

Someone who is within the church knows better. And if they knowingly and blatantly continue in sexual immorality even after it is pointed out to them then the church must put them out.

So My question is, what is "within the church" mean?

"The Church" is the body of Christ, universal. It is not your congregation that meets on Sunday (or Saturday if your messianic, or 7th day adventist). The Church are collectivly those who are alive in Christ. That's why in those verses, Paul very clearly says to throw out the one who calls himself a brother. Because, had the verses not just been cherry picked, and the entire context was shown we would have seen this

But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.

So, that puts what Paul is saying here into a little better context, I would say.

[sandie]

My point is that the letter from Pepsi says that the money was given because of workplace discrimination against gay people (my paraphrase of the isssue.) There was no mention of supporting gay people in churches, whch is clearly none of their businesss. I do not understand why people here are debating the issue of homosexuality in the church. It is another topic altogether.

Where it does beome dicey is when a Christian refuses to serve a customer, but that is also a separate issue to discriminating against particular employees because they are gay.

[cheewiee]

My point is that the letter from Pepsi says that the money was given because of workplace discrimination against gay people (my paraphrase of the isssue.) There was no mention of supporting gay people in churches, whch is clearly none of their businesss. I do not understand why people here are debating the issue of homosexuality in the church. It is another topic altogether.

Where it does beome dicey is when a Christian refuses to serve a customer, but that is also a separate issue to discriminating against particular employees because they are gay.

My point was that Paul says how we deal with sin in the world, and sin in the church (meaning those that are believers) differ..

To expect someone who is a slave to sin, to not to sin, is in my opinion, to put it bluntly, stupid. Sinners sin.. thats what they do, to expect anything else is unrealistic.

Then, what we see in 1st Corinthians, is a guy, who not only sins, but basicly rejects correction. It was more as though the guy was doing it, knew it was wrong, but didn't care. It wasn't a sin he was struggling with, it was a sin he was boasting about openly.

And the reason, Paul tells him to throw him out of the Church, and Pray for the distruction of his flesh, that he might be saved, was out of love.

As we see in 2nd Corinthians, that brother saw the error and repented.

[sandie]

I agree. However, Pepsi's actions pertain to the world, specifically to human rights in the workplace. I can't see how it relates to the internal workings of churches at all.

[cheewiee]

I agree. However, Pepsi's actions pertain to the world, specifically to human rights in the workplace. I can't see how it relates to the internal workings of churches at all.

I tend to agree, that it really doesn't have anything to do with the internal workings of the Church... Some posts though seem to indicate that how we deal with things as a family, should in fact be how we deal with things in the world. (Not yours, I just used yours to quote, as a springboard into the general conversation, not as a direct reply to you, sorry for not making that clear)

[Genna14]

No one is looking to condemn you, Genna.

Instead of us debating this issue, might I suggest you back up your argument using Scripture? Does the Bible support your argument that 'there is nothing wrong with bisexual behaviour and that there is nothing I can do about it'?

Ummm WHEN did I say that? I did NOT say that there is nothing wrong with the behaviour only that it isnt a sin TO BE BISEXUAL. To engage in bisexual behavior is a sin, I'm not saying it is. But one can't help if they find someone of the same sex attractive.



Hey Genna babe,
Good on you for making Godly choices little sister. Must be really hard sometimes.
Hugs from Thailand :)

Thank you. It is rough when you accidentally fall in love with your best friend. And she knows.

[sandie]

I tend to agree, that it really doesn't have anything to do with the internal workings of the Church... Some posts though seem to indicate that how we deal with things as a family, should in fact be how we deal with things in the world. (Not yours, I just used yours to quote, as a springboard into the general conversation, not as a direct reply to you, sorry for not making that clear)

Thanks for the response, cheewiee. :)

[The Unknown Gomer]

... I looked at the AFA site, and checked the link to the "condescending" letter back from Pepsi. I cannot for the life of me work out what is condescending about this reply. I'd describe it as a polite letter of reply...

That's what the AFA got back from Pepsi and they called it condescending?!? Sheesh. If they actually think that THAT was condescending, well, the thought process that went into the making of their website makes a little more sense to me now.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Here's something that ought to cause a great amount of debate here.

I am bisexual.



Thats hot

[rossid]

I subscribe to AFA, and like many other things, TBN, etc., you make up your own mind as led by the spirit.

[The Unknown Gomer]

I subscribe to AFA, and like many other things, TBN, etc., you make up your own mind as led by the spirit.Yep, which I did by deciding never to go to the site again. Some of the stuff that crossed my mind as I was reading a couple of the pages before I said the heck with this... well, "the heck with this" pretty much summed it up, so far as what I can actually post here, anyway. As it is, I'm actually showing considerable restraint in saying what I REALLY think about the site, considering that there are probably children present.

Like I said, the fact that they consider the letter they got back from Pespi to be "condescending" just shows to go, to ME anyway, why the rest of their site reads like it does. :rolleyes:

But like you said, to each their own.

[rossid]

Oh I have "grown up" after coming out here and being a listener of Dobson and Falwell.

I just realised that a LOT of "leaders" have Kool Aid drinkers.

[Gaudete]

Genna, I know I'm late on this, but I just wanted to tell you that your post took a great deal of courage. I'm sure you haven't had an easy time of it.

God loves you, Genna! He made you, and God doesn't make mistakes. I know you didn't choose your orientation. I also have gay friends, and they have assured me that it's not a choice. Given the treatment they've received from others -- the hatred, the comments, the abuse -- no one would choose a lifestyle to be at the receiving end of that.

Just my $.02.

[Genna14]

Genna, I know I'm late on this, but I just wanted to tell you that your post took a great deal of courage. I'm sure you haven't had an easy time of it.

God loves you, Genna! He made you, and God doesn't make mistakes. I know you didn't choose your orientation. I also have gay friends, and they have assured me that it's not a choice. Given the treatment they've received from others -- the hatred, the comments, the abuse -- no one would choose a lifestyle to be at the receiving end of that.

Just my $.02.
Thank you. You've been so kind *and mature!*.

You're right. I'd never have chosen this life for myself. My family doesn't even know. I keep it secret because I know they'd never accept me, I couldn't really be myself. Its been rough to keep it from them but I figure its for all our benefit.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Oh I have "grown up" after coming out here and being a listener of Dobson and Falwell.

I just realised that a LOT of "leaders" have Kool Aid drinkers.

I'm sure there are a lot of "Kool Aid Drinkers" even under what we would call good leaders.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Thank you. You've been so kind *and mature!*.

You're right. I'd never have chosen this life for myself. My family doesn't even know. I keep it secret because I know they'd never accept me, I couldn't really be myself. Its been rough to keep it from them but I figure its for all our benefit.

Genna, I know I'm late on this, but I just wanted to tell you that your post took a great deal of courage. I'm sure you haven't had an easy time of it.

God loves you, Genna! He made you, and God doesn't make mistakes. I know you didn't choose your orientation. I also have gay friends, and they have assured me that it's not a choice. Given the treatment they've received from others -- the hatred, the comments, the abuse -- no one would choose a lifestyle to be at the receiving end of that.

Just my $.02.

You are correct. God does not make mistakes. The Bible tells us that he is perfect and described creation as "very good" only after he created Adam and Eve. The Bible also tells us in Genesis that God created man and woman to come together as "one flesh". He has created men to be attracted to woman and women to be attracted to men. He does not make mistakes. Nowhere; not once in Scripture does the Bible even hint that a person made in God's image is pre-disposed to homosexual tendancies. No one is 'born gay'. It is only the lies of this world and of the devil that tell us we have no choice. God does not 'make' anyone bisexual. And if you choose to have bisexual tendancies God's grace is sufficient to change that if you ask Him.

For too long the Christian church and Christians in general have played with the fire of homosexuality. And the affect has been terrible. Gay bishops, acceptance of homosexual practice and people within the Christian community willing to support and encourage those who perform such acts and/or praising them for 'coming out'. Now please don't hear me wrong, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I do not believe it to be any worse than any other form of rebellion against God. The homophobia and judgementalism of the church has done tremendous amounts of damage. I yearn for the day when Christians hate the sin in their own lives as much as they claim to hate homosexuality. But that day will probably never come. I have friends who are both homosexual and those who used to live that lifestyle and have now become a follower of Christ. I do not hate them, I hate the sin and the affect it has had on the Church's ability to fulfill the Great Commission.

I know I am likely to get angry replies for this post but that does not bother me. As a Christian I have a responsibility to pick my brothers or sisters up when they fall down. I am not accusing anyone of anything, nor am I hating. I am simply trying to act in love.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I'm interested to see where you find biblical condemnation for finding somebody attractive.

I have grown very tired of being misquoted on these Boards. :mad: :mad: :( What I have said is that God does not create people as bisexual. And as such I have thrown out the challenge to anybody who disagrees with me to demonstrate Biblically their point. No one is has yet done so. There is something you can do about bisexual tendancies if you want to.

To answer your post more specifically however, I did not say - and would never say - that finding someone attractive is a sin. It is not. God has given us the ability to appreciate beauty (which is a good thing). As a man I am attracted to woman. That said, this does not mean I cannot say that another man is handsome. But there is a difference between that and resigning yourself to bisexual tendancies. That was my point.

[Sam!]

I have grown very tired of being misquoted on these Boards. :mad: :mad: :( What I have said is that God does not create people as bisexual. And as such I have thrown out the challenge to anybody who disagrees with me to demonstrate Biblically their point. No one is has yet done so. There is something you can do about bisexual tendancies if you want to.

To answer your post more specifically however, I did not say - and would never say - that finding someone attractive is a sin. It is not. God has given us the ability to appreciate beauty (which is a good thing). As a man I am attracted to woman. That said, this does not mean I cannot say that another man is handsome. But there is a difference between that and resigning yourself to bisexual tendancies. That was my point.
I did not intend to misrepresent your position.

Genna indicated she felt an attraction toward other girls as well as toward boys. You asked for (demanded?) justification for that, although she had already stated that she does not act out on those feelings. To me, the implication was that she was still in sin. While I might disagree with the premise that God made her that way (and I'm sad that the only reason she hides this part is because of the shame she'll feel from others), I rejoice that she isn't embracing what she believes is a part of her.

I'm not willing to state categorically that God will "heal" anybody of homosexual tendencies just because they become convinced it's sinful to be gay. I believe he can, I believe that he does. I don't believe he grants that to all--just as he does not heal all cancer or disease or blindness. Given that, I believe some people will have to struggle with it for their entire lives, just as many straight people fight against attractions to the opposite sex for their entire lives.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Nowhere; not once in Scripture does the Bible even hint that a person made in God's image is pre-disposed to homosexual tendancies. No one is 'born gay'. It is only the lies of this world and of the devil that tell us we have no choice. God does not 'make' anyone bisexual. And if you choose to have bisexual tendancies God's grace is sufficient to change that if you ask Him.


If Scripture is silent, however, can you dogmatically say that one cannot be predisposed to a certain sin? For example, can one be predisposed to being a klepto or being lustful in general, just by virtue of being depraved? Why do certain people deal with certain sins, and not others?

I don't understand how you can choose to have tendencies. That seems to contradict the meaning of the word.

I'm not willing to state categorically that God will "heal" anybody of homosexual tendencies just because they become convinced it's sinful to be gay. I believe he can, I believe that he does. I don't believe he grants that to all--just as he does not heal all cancer or disease or blindness. Given that, I believe some people will have to struggle with it for their entire lives, just as many straight people fight against attractions to the opposite sex for their entire lives.

Well said. Paul's thorn in the side, whatever it may have been, comes to mind.

[Evanescence]

God does make mistakes..the Bible even said he did...AND people are not born perfect. Especially health wise...

How do we define GAY RIGHTS...

Coke is better anyway...

News flash, probably 90% of all women have gay tendencies...

Back to fighting... :cool:

[sandie]

So, where did you get that percentage, John? :confused:

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I did not intend to misrepresent your position.

Genna indicated she felt an attraction toward other girls as well as toward boys. You asked for (demanded?) justification for that, although she had already stated that she does not act out on those feelings. To me, the implication was that she was still in sin. While I might disagree with the premise that God made her that way (and I'm sad that the only reason she hides this part is because of the shame she'll feel from others), I rejoice that she isn't embracing what she believes is a part of her.

I'm not willing to state categorically that God will "heal" anybody of homosexual tendencies just because they become convinced it's sinful to be gay. I believe he can, I believe that he does. I don't believe he grants that to all--just as he does not heal all cancer or disease or blindness. Given that, I believe some people will have to struggle with it for their entire lives, just as many straight people fight against attractions to the opposite sex for their entire lives.

I think it is fantastic that Genna has not acted on her tendencies. I am also pleased to hear that she believes acting on those same-sex tendencies would be sin. What I am concerned about as a brother in Christ is that she seems to have a defeatist attitude towards it. It seems, to me at least, that she has resigned herself to something that God has not meant her to be. Being OK with bisexual tendencies is like playing with fire.

If Scripture is silent, however, can you dogmatically say that one cannot be predisposed to a certain sin? For example, can one be predisposed to being a klepto or being lustful in general, just by virtue of being depraved? Why do certain people deal with certain sins, and not others?

I don't understand how you can choose to have tendencies. That seems to contradict the meaning of the word.

What I am saying is that God does not create people pre-programmed to something which is clearly in dangerous territory.

God does make mistakes..the Bible even said he did...AND people are not born perfect. Especially health wise...

If God makes mistakes then he cannot be God. Plain and simple.

If you believe - as you say - that the Bible claims God makes mistakes then I suggets you post the Scripture here.

I have never said people are born perfect. That would be stupid. Sadly, some people are born with terrible diseases.

News flash, probably 90% of all women have gay tendencies..

Are you prepared to back up such a bold claim?

[cheewiee]

What I am concerned about as a brother in Christ is that she seems to have a defeatist attitude towards it. It seems, to me at least, that she has resigned herself to something that God has not meant her to be. Being OK with bisexual tendencies is like playing with fire.


I think you and Sam said the same thing...

While I might disagree with the premise that God made her that way (and I'm sad that the only reason she hides this part is because of the shame she'll feel from others), I rejoice that she isn't embracing what she believes is a part of her.


Please know that my intention, is not to embarras or call anyone out, but the fact that someone's identity is found in a sin, to me is troubling as well. Primarly because to idenfity with the sin, (ie. "I'm a bisexual") means, that in some form or fashion, you believe yourself to be a slave to sin. Romans is clear, that we are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness.

Does that mean all of the tempation goes away? Certainly not! I am a pervert, yet I am certainly tempted to look at porn... And this is more than me simply living in denial to my nature, scripture is clear that we have a new nature when we are born again. So there are aspects of the flesh we deal with, yes, but who we are, now, is no longer who we were. And in Romans, this is dealt with, especially in Romans 7, when Paul, seemingly struggling with sin, clearly points out that it is not him who desires.

The flip side of the coin, though is to go through some form of denial, to the point that we think we have "arrived" in dealing with our tempations. But the key thing to know, is that you are not your tempation.

[Valpo]

St. Paul called himself the chief sinner. Genna's labeling herself, mostly for the sake of this conversation mind you, as "bi-sexual" is accurate. Just as Paul labeled himself in the present tense as the chief sinner. And just as I label myself a poor miserable sinner. Does it make a difference whether she was born that way or not? She recognizes it isn't right.

What gets me about the non sacramental churches is how they just push sin under the rug and don't call it out or address it for what it is, sin, unless it is a certain sin. Especially today being the first day of Lent it would be a good idea for us to go be reminded with ash on our foreheads what we are. Are we Christian? YES. Do we sin so grace may abound? NO. Do we still sin? YES. But to the repentant heart, a heart like Genna's, she need not to hear LAW but the loving Gospel proclaimed to her so that she can leave that sin at the foot of the cross no matter what. And daily she can take up her cross and follow Jesus herself. That is the beauty of this. I have been profoundly confused as to why people are preaching more Law to a repentant sinner. The repentant sinner does not need to hear more Law! The repentant sinner needs to hear Gospel!

Genna, your admitting to struggles is admirable even if it is in an online forum because especially online people can be nasty or misunderstanding. You recognize your sinful state, you are sorry for it, and you're working to be above that. You believe Jesus' words when he heals and says, "Your faith has made you well!" and "Go and sin no more!" I join you in humble repentance before our Lord on this Ash Wednesday and proclaim to you the forgiveness of sins because it has been won by no mere man, but the God-Man, Jesus Christ, Son of God. Where he is, there we are also!

[cheewiee]

St. Paul called himself the chief sinner. Genna's labeling herself, mostly for the sake of this conversation mind you, as "bi-sexual" is accurate. Just as Paul labeled himself in the present tense as the chief sinner. And just as I label myself a poor miserable sinner. Does it make a difference whether she was born that way or not? She recognizes it isn't right.

What gets me about the non sacramental churches is how they just push sin under the rug and don't call it out or address it for what it is, sin, unless it is a certain sin. Especially today being the first day of Lent it would be a good idea for us to go be reminded with ash on our foreheads what we are. Are we Christian? YES. Do we sin so grace may abound? NO. Do we still sin? YES. But to the repentant heart, a heart like Genna's, she need not to hear LAW but the loving Gospel proclaimed to her so that she can leave that sin at the foot of the cross no matter what. And daily she can take up her cross and follow Jesus herself. That is the beauty of this. I have been profoundly confused as to why people are preaching more Law to a repentant sinner. The repentant sinner does not need to hear more Law! The repentant sinner needs to hear Gospel!

Genna, your admitting to struggles is admirable even if it is in an online forum because especially online people can be nasty or misunderstanding. You recognize your sinful state, you are sorry for it, and you're working to be above that. You believe Jesus' words when he heals and says, "Your faith has made you well!" and "Go and sin no more!" I join you in humble repentance before our Lord on this Ash Wednesday and proclaim to you the forgiveness of sins because it has been won by no mere man, but the God-Man, Jesus Christ, Son of God. Where he is, there we are also!

Romans 7, 13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh,(S) sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For(T) I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with(U) the law, that it is good. 17So now(V) it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells(W) in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19(X) For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want,(Y) it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For(Z) I delight in the law of God,(AA) in my inner being, 23but I see in my members(AB) another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from(AC) this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2For the law of(A) the Spirit of life(B) has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For(C) God has done what the law,(D) weakened by the flesh,(E) could not do.(F) By sending his own Son(G) in the likeness of sinful flesh and(H) for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that(I) the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us,(J) who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For(K) those who live according to the flesh set their minds on(L) the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on(M) the things of the Spirit. 6For to set(N) the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is(O) hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law;(P) indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact(Q) the Spirit of God dwells in you.(R) Anyone who does not have(S) the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of(T) him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies(U) through his Spirit who dwells in you.

It isn't denial of our sin, its simply pointing out that upon being born again, through God's wonderful grace, we have a new nature.

Again, St Paul (as I qoted) said that it was no longer him that sinned... (I bolded that for ya)

[Valpo]

Cheewie, again, sin dwells in him, he means the Christian new man in us doesnt want sin but thirsts for God's righteousness found only in Christ Jesus. But he readily admits sin dwells in him. I'm not so sure that strengthens any argument that says we are not sinners. If I'm a bum but live in a house, does that make me homeless? No, but I'm still a bum. So the Spirit of God lives in me and fights off the desires of the flesh daily, but I'm still a bum, because I did nothing. Christ did all.

[cheewiee]

Cheewie, again, sin dwells in him, he means the Christian new man in us doesnt want sin but thirsts for God's righteousness found only in Christ Jesus. But he readily admits sin dwells in him. I'm not so sure that strengthens any argument that says we are not sinners. If I'm a bum but live in a house, does that make me homeless? No, but I'm still a bum. So the Spirit of God lives in me and fights off the desires of the flesh daily, but I'm still a bum, because I did nothing. Christ did all.

Who are we?

[Valpo]

Who are we?

Justified sinners living in God's grace that provides us with Christ's righteousness.

The disconnect I found was that the non-sacramentalists will hammer about how we are no longer sinners, yadda yadda yadda, then when a repentant sinner came forward admitting struggles she had more Law was thrown at her! To the unrepentant heart we preach Law so that they be brought to repentance (btw Law isn't always fire and brimstone, one could preach Law in a way that shows they are on the same page, imagine we approached the homosexual community in repentance and started the conversation that way!) But to the repentant sinner we preach Gospel so they would not be torn up about their sin but live in fulness of life and leave that sin at the foot of the cross.

[Evanescence]

I have read a scripture that said God was unahppy with what he had done, then changed it. The word mistake was used.

My % is an opinion, but a well researched one. Its one of the worlds best kept secret...

[Valpo]

I have read a scripture that said God was unahppy with what he had done, then changed it. The word mistake was used.

My % is an opinion, but a well researched one. Its one of the worlds best kept secret...

Unfortunately what happens when using human words to convey what God means we lose the mystery behind it. To put God, who is outside of time, into a box of time is inaccurate. To say God changed His mind as though He were going with the flow or flying by the seat of His pants is inaccurate. Scripture for Ash Wednesday today shows God "repented" of His decision to destroy Nineveh after they repented. In both Hebrew and Greek the word repentance means a changing of one's ways. Now in the human context this undoubtedly means that a different path is being taken, one is turning away from sin, one is changing their mind. When used for God it cannot possibly mean the same thing because God is outside of time and His plan goes accordingly, He knew what would happen at Nineveh. So God did not change his mind in the human sense but rather used Law or judgment to bring people to repentance and then when people repent, judgment passes them.

Say it another way, when believers come to faith is God changing His mind to not condemn them to hell? Or was this part of the plan all along? That sinners would repent and be brought into the fold because of God's Grace, the Good News? God's Word speaks to us in two words: Law and Gospel. If the people are repentant and seeking to change their ways they need not to be destroyed by their sin or mired in their iniquity, they need to hear the proclamation of the Gospel and that their lives have been spared. When the Law does its job it needs not to be continually preached. Enter Gospel.

[cheewiee]

Justified sinners living in God's grace that provides us with Christ's righteousness.

The disconnect I found was that the non-sacramentalists will hammer about how we are no longer sinners, yadda yadda yadda, then when a repentant sinner came forward admitting struggles she had more Law was thrown at her! To the unrepentant heart we preach Law so that they be brought to repentance (btw Law isn't always fire and brimstone, one could preach Law in a way that shows they are on the same page, imagine we approached the homosexual community in repentance and started the conversation that way!) But to the repentant sinner we preach Gospel so they would not be torn up about their sin but live in fulness of life and leave that sin at the foot of the cross.

"non-sacramentalists" do we need more labels?

I didn't hammer anyone. The only thing I said, and I prefaced it before I said it, was that our identity isn't found in sin. We are not merely sinners saved by grace. Do we sin, certainly, but it isn't what we do who is our identity anymore. We are the righteousness of God, in Christ.

What I am saying, is Gospel, it is the essence of the Gospel. When we are born again, we become somthing new. Yes we still have flesh, yes we still struggle, no one has suggested that we don't but who we are is not identified by what we struggle with. Paul was clear, "Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

[mcgreen311]

So is the problem merely with saying "I am" rather than "I struggle with"? Is this just a semantic issue?

[cheewiee]

So is the problem merely with saying "I am" rather than "I struggle with"? Is this just a semantic issue?

I can understand why you might say that, but it really is more than just being a matter of semantics. This involves, who we are in Christ, which is far more than semantics. First, a fundamental understaning that what I struggle with, does not define who I am, is a huge relief. I no longer have to beat myself up, or go through self loathing, when we do those things we hate.

Second, scripture is clear, we are no longer slaves to sin. How freeing is that. Again its unrealistic to think that we may go the rest of our lives sin/free but to know that we are not bound by sins grasp, and through progressive sanctification we can find ourselves being transformed by the Holy Spirit.

When all we accept is that I am X (place your sin here) that puts up a defeatest mentality, it also underscores what the Gospel truely means.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I have read a scripture that said God was unahppy with what he had done, then changed it. The word mistake was used.

My % is an opinion, but a well researched one. Its one of the worlds best kept secret...

It is possible you are referring to Genesis 6:

"5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:5-8, NIV)

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-8, NASB)

Nowhere in these verses does God say he stuffed up. He said he was grieved.

To reiterate my point again, God cannot make mistakes. God by his very nature is pure, righteous and holy. The implication for that should be clear...

[Howlin' Wolf]

It is possible you are referring to Genesis 6:

Nowhere in these verses does God say he stuffed up. He said he was grieved.

To reiterate my point again, God cannot make mistakes. God by his very nature is pure, righteous and holy. The implication for that should be clear...

Then don't refer to it as a "mistake." Maybe people are supposed to deal with certain temptations for a specific reason unbeknownst to us.

[ThirdDayGirl]

.

To reiterate my point again, God cannot make mistakes...

AMEN!

[Evanescence]

..and so the children born with any one of the 1500 or more known sydromes or deformities ar what? Perfect beings?

God may not make mistakes but we are not born without deformities or health issues/illnesses.

[Valpo]

^best argument for original sin

[Aussie3rddayfan]

..and so the children born with any one of the 1500 or more known sydromes or deformities ar what? Perfect beings?

God may not make mistakes but we are not born without deformities or health issues/illnesses.

Which one is it, John? First you are adament God CAN make mistakes then you say he "may not."

I have already posted in this thread stating quite clearly that I do not believe people are born perfect. Some people are born with congenital heart disease, some are born with ADHD, some are born with physical deformities, and others are born with all sorts of things wrong with their brain. Many people hate God for that, and, on one hand, I can see their point. But on the other hand I know that God is good; that he is holy and right and pure. We, like Job, have no right to question him. He is God and we are not.

Perhaps we should be focusing on our biggest disease - sin.

[mcgreen311]

Which one is it, John? First you are adament God CAN make mistakes then you say he "may not."

I have already posted in this thread stating quite clearly that I do not believe people are born perfect. Some people are born with congenital heart disease, some are born with ADHD, some are born with physical deformities, and others are born with all sorts of things wrong with their brain. Many people hate God for that, and, on one hand, I can see their point. But on the other hand I know that God is good; that he is holy and right and pure. We, like Job, have no right to question him. He is God and we are not.

Perhaps we should be focusing on our biggest disease - sin.

I think the definition of the word mistake is just too loose, rather than a flippity-flop issue.

If you refer to sin as "our biggest disease," that lends credence to the other argument about deformities. I don't think any one is arguing with this statement of yours. Rather they are including "regular" evil with the natural evil you mention.

[ThirdDayGirl]

I dont care what other people might say to me, I know that God can not make ANY mistakes. There's is no if and's or buts about it. GOD CAN NOT MAKE MISTAKES. Even if we don't look perfect, speak funny, or have difformalities, we are made the way God wants us to be. But it's because of sin that there are all those dissablities. Thats what I believe.

[Evanescence]

"Women are like spaghetti....they're only straight until you heat them up..."

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Dear God,

I just wanted to let you know that there are these guys at my work who sin a lot so I told them I'd never talk to them again.

Your BFF,
Weasel.

PS: Thank you for forgiving mine.
PPS: Walt Disney is still damned, right? or can I take them off my list since nobody talks about them anymore.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

"Women are like spaghetti....they're only straight until you heat them up..."

What?

[Howlin' Wolf]

What?

I think that's best left unexplained.

[Evanescence]

I think that's best left unexplained.

LOL...no comment......

[Howlin' Wolf]

I dont care what other people might say to me, I know that God can not make ANY mistakes. There's is no if and's or buts about it. GOD CAN NOT MAKE MISTAKES. Even if we don't look perfect, speak funny, or have difformalities, we are made the way God wants us to be. But it's because of sin that there are all those dissablities. Thats what I believe.[/COLOR]

This is predicated on the idea that being born with a predisposition to a CERTAIN sin is a mistake. I don't know that that has been established yet. If you say God lost control at that part, you have effectively neutered his sovereignty.

[in hiding]

There's a book out called "unchristian" which is a phenomenal read and is a real wake up call. It's very cutting and very relevant especially to this discussion. We (christians) often seem to take the supposed high ground and say we hate the sin not the sinner, yet we wont associate with those who sin b/c we're afraid of what people might think?????? Think about when Jesus was the most frustrated... it was with the holier than thou pharisees. Jesus showed love and engaged everyone that he could. He didn't hang out in the Church too often, he went out and met people where they were. He is the one we are supposed to emulate, yet somehow we don't want to really get involved in peoples lives if they're not like "us" for fear of what other people would think?

let's take a verse from the Bible and see if it our actions reflect Jesus's attitude Luke 15:1-2 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering round to hear him. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners, and eats with them." ... maybe we should find comfort if we actually talk to sinners (since we all are), eat with sinners (since we all are). We don't have to condone what they do but here's the greatest commandments from Jesus: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV)

[princess1087]

seriously...did you just lump homosexuality in with pedophilia?

Boycotting a company does absolutely nothing. Its a total waste of time. But christians like to pat themselves on the back because they feel they are taking some sort of stand for Jesus by boycotting a product. Take a stand for Jesus and live the word out in a manner that will bring sinner's to him.

by the way, your post reaked of arrogance. What sins do you condone since you, yourself are a sinner like everyone else?

i did lump it in with pedophilia. just like i'll lump it in with any other sin, including theft, murder, lying, adultery, disrespecting elders, cursing, etc. i'm not saying i am not a sinner. i don't condone it. when i make a MISTAKE i repent of it. i don't continuously wallow in sin and embrace it as a lifestyle. Jesus did go to the sinners. but he also said go and sin no more. i will not sweep it under the rug and brush it off if someone is sinning repeatedly with the knowledge that it is a sin. i will not condemn them but i will point out that it is wrong and i will not support their actions.

[Evanescence]

i did lump it in with pedophilia. just like i'll lump it in with any other sin, including theft, murder, lying, adultery, disrespecting elders, cursing, etc. i'm not saying i am not a sinner. i don't condone it. when i make a MISTAKE i repent of it. i don't continuously wallow in sin and embrace it as a lifestyle. Jesus did go to the sinners. but he also said go and sin no more. i will not sweep it under the rug and brush it off if someone is sinning repeatedly with the knowledge that it is a sin. i will not condemn them but i will point out that it is wrong and i will not support their actions.


Hmmm...sounds like The World According to the Princess....

Tell us princess, who's definition of sin do you go by? Yours or Gods? And how do you justify the sin in your life, that other's feel is sin and you dont?

[Pouye]

..and so the children born with any one of the 1500 or more known sydromes or deformities ar what? Perfect beings?

God may not make mistakes but we are not born without deformities or health issues/illnesses.

That God allowed people to suffer physical death as a consequence of disobedience is not a mistake. In fact, God removed sinful humans from the Garden of Eden because He didn't want people to live forever in disobedience:

"Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” -- therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."
Genesis 3:22-

If Adam and Eve, after sinning, had been allowed access to the Tree of Life, they would have still lived forever in their sinful condition. An eternally sinful being is far worse than a being who is only sinful for a time and then judged.

In my opinion, the fact that people are born within the physical consequences of the fall (including God's purposeful accelerated aging process found in Genesis 6:3) is no proof of the doctrine of original sin. The death blow for this doctrine is that neither Adam, nor Eve had a sin nature, and yet they sinned -- all without "original sin".

Sin begets consequences. If a mom and dad are on drugs, their baby can be born all messed up. Not because the baby sinned or is sinful, and not because the parent's sin is imputed to the baby -- but because disobedience to God has consequences, and the innocent face them along with the guilty. The difference is, (in the end), the innocent will be justified and the guilty punished.

Rock

[Genna14]

..and so the children born with any one of the 1500 or more known sydromes or deformities ar what? Perfect beings?

God may not make mistakes but we are not born without deformities or health issues/illnesses.
I totally agree.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I totally agree.

It is terrible to see people born with physical conditions that impede their ability to live life to the full. But sadly it is as a result of a fallen world. Why God chose to create me without such deformeties while other are born with horrendous problems is an answer I do not have. I just trust that God is all-wise and has his reasons.

BTW, I want to throw my challenge out again: can you show me Biblically how God is OK with a resigned attitude towards bisexual tendancies?

[Genna14]

It is terrible to see people born with physical conditions that impede their ability to live life to the full. But sadly it is as a result of a fallen world. Why God chose to create me without such deformeties while other are born with horrendous problems is an answer I do not have. I just trust that God is all-wise and has his reasons.

BTW, I want to throw my challenge out again: can you show me Biblically how God is OK with a resigned attitude towards bisexual tendancies?
What do you expect me to do? Make it go away? Or go on living the way I know I'm supposed to despite those tendencies?

[Genna14]

And on the same note, why don't you show ME where the Bible even says ANYTHING about bisexual tendencies.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

What do you expect me to do? Make it go away? Or go on living the way I know I'm supposed to despite those tendencies?

I am not out to get anyone here, Genna. On the contrary, I am trying to help you. I have already given my opinion and backed it up. I have explained how having a defeatist attitude towards such tendancies is playing with fire. The devil is a liar and is out to decieve as many Christians as he can.

My suggestion would be to pray, pray, pray. Believe in faith that God will help you and he will answer your prayer. You were not made with such tendancies. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

[mcgreen311]

Sorry to butt in, but it seems to me that the very fact that Genna is making an effort to live the way she believes is right despite having tendencies is, in fact, NOT defeatist.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

BTW, I want to throw my challenge out again: can you show me Biblically how God is OK with a resigned attitude towards bisexual tendancies?
Proverbs 28:13


How does an alcoholic deal with his addiction? They acknowledge their addiction, learn that they'll most likely have to fight the urge to drink for the rest of their lives, and then they draw a line, their limit to what may push them over, and make a commitment to never cross it. This isn't resigning towards alcoholism. It's resigning towards the way you are, so you can then manage it, and know your limits. You'll never see an alcoholic trying to convince himself that he's not addicted.

Alcoholism, by the way, is also hereditary.

[Howlin' Wolf]

. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

So people arent born with any predisposition to sin?

[cheewiee]

So people arent born with any predisposition to sin?

That doesn't matter does it? While we were once slaves to sin, we no longer are. While I certainly agree that Origional sin makes for a compelling argument that people may be "born gay" the truth is, as Children of God, we are set free from our bondages to sin.

[Evanescence]

I love it how "normal" people tell the "sinners" how to live and they are trying to "help"...

No thanks...

[Gaudete]

Alcoholism, by the way, is also hereditary.

Not always. Addictive tendencies can be hereditary. Do you have any statistics to back up that claim? I'm not being contentious; I truly would like to learn.

[Sam!]

I love it how "normal" people tell the "sinners" how to live and they are trying to "help"...

No thanks...
Who here claimed to be normal? The church has an obligation to her members to instruct, correct, strengthen and disciple.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

So people arent born with any predisposition to sin?

Where did I say that. In fact I have repeated on this thread several times that we are born sinners.

What I have been trying so very hard to accomplish is to challenge the view that having bisexual tendancies is OK. I have put the challenge out asking for people to back up their argument that they are born with something that is clearly in very dangerous territory. So far no one has done that.

lte me be absolutely crystal clear: God DOES NOT create people with bisexual tendancies. If you believe otherwise - prove it.

[Valpo]

I would argue there's a difference between temptation and committing sin. From Luther's Large Catechism:

107] To feel temptation is therefore a far different thing from consenting or yielding to it. We must all feel it, although not all in the same manner, but some in a greater degree and more severely than others; as, the young suffer especially from the flesh, afterwards, they that attain to middle life and old age, from the world, but others who are occupied with spiritual matters, that is, strong Christians, from the devil. 108] But such feeling, as long as it is against our will and we would rather be rid of it, can harm no one. For if we did not feel it, it could not be called a temptation. But to consent thereto is when we give it the reins and do not resist or pray against it.

Could having bisexual tendencies be the same thing then? tempted but not acting?

[mcgreen311]

Where did I say that. In fact I have repeated on this thread several times that we are born sinners.

What I have been trying so very hard to accomplish is to challenge the view that having bisexual tendancies is OK. I have put the challenge out asking for people to back up their argument that they are born with something that is clearly in very dangerous territory. So far no one has done that.

lte me be absolutely crystal clear: God DOES NOT create people with bisexual tendancies. If you believe otherwise - prove it.

But if we are born sinners, does that not put us in dangerous territory as well?

I honestly don't know with which side the burden of proof lies in this case.

[Jesuslove]

Could having bisexual tendencies be the same thing then? tempted but not acting?
I don't believe there is sin in thought. Sin is acting on that thought. Since I believe people are born predisposed to heterosexuality or homosexuality, I don't see heterosexual or homosexual attraction as sin.

[Valpo]

I don't believe there is sin in thought. Sin is acting on that thought. Since I believe people are born predisposed to heterosexuality or homosexuality, I don't see heterosexual or homosexual attraction as sin.

Well, have to be careful there bc Jesus explicitly states lusting breaks the 8th commandment and if one has hate in their heart for their brother they are guilty of murder. But I do think however there is something to be said about being tempted and resisting it. Jesus was tempted.

[Jesuslove]

Well, have to be careful there bc Jesus explicitly states lusting breaks the 8th commandment and if one has hate in their heart for their brother they are guilty of murder. But I do think however there is something to be said about being tempted and resisting it. Jesus was tempted.

True... but I was talking about love, maybe lust, and not hate. I think hate is a whole different thing. Hate in one's heart is equivalent to poison. If you let hate inhabit your heart, it can kill you.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Where did I say that. In fact I have repeated on this thread several times that we are born sinners.

What I have been trying so very hard to accomplish is to challenge the view that having bisexual tendancies is OK. I have put the challenge out asking for people to back up their argument that they are born with something that is clearly in very dangerous territory. So far no one has done that.

lte me be absolutely crystal clear: God DOES NOT create people with bisexual tendancies. If you believe otherwise - prove it.


People are born dead in their sins. Homosexuality is a sin. To say that people arent born with a predisposition towards the same sex is extremely naive. Sin is sin.

[Howlin' Wolf]

That doesn't matter does it? While we were once slaves to sin, we no longer are. While I certainly agree that Origional sin makes for a compelling argument that people may be "born gay" the truth is, as Children of God, we are set free from our bondages to sin.

Absolutely, 100% agree. My contention is the fact that the church loves to put homosexuality on a pedestal and condemn homosexuals from the start. Every christian struggles with sin, yet homosexuality is considered far more evil than anything else. Most christians wont give any credence to the fact that a person can be born with those desires. We are sympathetic towards alcoholics because science says its hereditary. We arent sympathetic towards homosexuals because our pastors suck at hermeneutics.

[Jesuslove]

Absolutely, 100% agree. My contention is the fact that the church loves to put homosexuality on a pedestal and condemn homosexuals from the start. Every christian struggles with sin, yet homosexuality is considered far more evil than anything else. Most christians wont give any credence to the fact that a person can be born with those desires. We are sympathetic towards alcoholics because science says its hereditary. We arent sympathetic towards homosexuals because our pastors suck at hermeneutics.

Homosexuals are an easy target because they usually don't attend Christian services. I know some gays that are active in Christian ministry, but they are in the minority. Pastors can paint gays as the boogey man, because no one will challenge them. You rarely hear pastors rail against divorced/ remarried people, yet Jesus was clear about their sin.

I think the bigger issue as to why Christians are not sympathetic toward homosexuals is that people need to feel like they are "better than" someone or some group. The mentality is this... in order to put ourselves on a pedistal, we have to put someone else below us.

Lastly, and I've said this before.... I don't see sexuality as a choice. I've never met a heterosexual man who will admit he is equally attracted to men and women, but chooses to be attracted to women because it's the moral thing to do.

[Valpo]

Homosexuals are an easy target because they usually don't attend Christian services. I know some gays that are active in Christian ministry, but they are in the minority. Pastors can paint gays as the boogey man, because no one will challenge them. You rarely hear pastors rail against divorced/ remarried people, yet Jesus was clear about their sin.

I think the bigger issue as to why Christians are not sympathetic toward homosexuals is that people need to feel like they are "better than" someone or some group. The mentality is this... in order to put ourselves on a pedistal, we have to put someone else below us.

Lastly, and I've said this before.... I don't see sexuality as a choice. I've never met a heterosexual man who will admit he is equally attracted to men and women, but chooses to be attracted to women because it's the moral thing to do.

Good point on divorce.

And to me whether or not theyre born gay is irrelevant to me. Sin is sin. Have to treat it right though. Homosexuals can read, they know what scripture says. Christianity has distanced itself from being relational, I have found homosexuals are more apt to listening when you're being relational toward them then the alternative. DUH

[Aussie3rddayfan]

People are born dead in their sins.

Of course we are born dead in our sins. I have already made it painfully clear that I believe that we are born sinners. Apparently - and yet again I might add - no one was listening. :rolleyes:

Homosexuality is a sin.

Yes, of course it is. Again, I have made that abundantly clear. Why would I argue against bisexuality so strongly if I thought being gay is OK? :confused:

To say that people arent born with a predisposition towards the same sex is extremely naive. Sin is sin.

There is a difference between being proud about being bisexual and appreciating the physical appearance of the same sex. Yet again, I have already made that clear in this thread. I am male and therefore attracted to females. At the same time that doesn't mean I can't say that another man is handsome. Bisexual tendancies are different because you are attracted to the opposite sex. That's dangerous.

But if we are born sinners, does that not put us in dangerous territory as well?

I honestly don't know with which side the burden of proof lies in this case.

Because we are born sinners we must in God's strength fight aginst what drags us down. Resigning yourself to something that God does not want you to be is playing into the devil's hands. The sad thing is that no one here seems to care. :(

[mcgreen311]

Because we are born sinners we must in God's strength fight aginst what drags us down. Resigning yourself to something that God does not want you to be is playing into the devil's hands. The sad thing is that no one here seems to care. :(

It's not that no one cares. The fact is, others have a different idea of what "resigning" means. I think the alcoholism example that was provided earlier does a good job of conveying why one might identify with something without resigning themselves to it.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

It's not that no one cares. The fact is, others have a different idea of what "resigning" means. I think the alcoholism example that was provided earlier does a good job of conveying why one might identify with something without resigning themselves to it.

I can deal with the fact that others see things differently than I. However if you look at the original post from Genna she states quite clearly that she is A) Bisexual and B) wants to be counted as such:

I'm here to stand up as a part of the gay community and to say that if you're here to say that being gay is a choice, you are wrong.

This is quite a statement. To me she seems proud of it and OK that that's who she is in God's eyes. That's a problem. And I'm in the minority for thinking so. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[Jesuslove]

There is a difference between being proud about being bisexual and appreciating the physical appearance of the same sex. Yet again, I have already made that clear in this thread. I am male and therefore attracted to females. At the same time that doesn't mean I can't say that another man is handsome. Bisexual tendancies are different because you are attracted to the opposite sex. That's dangerous.
(

I think you miss the point. You say you are a male and therefore attracted to females. Homosexuals are not wired that way. They are naturally attracted to males, and not to females. So their nature is sinful with a predisposition to sin. We are all sinners; sin is sin.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

I think you miss the point. You say you are a male and therefore attracted to females. Homosexuals are not wired that way. They are naturally attracted to males, and not to females. So their nature is sinful with a predisposition to sin. We are all sinners; sin is sin.

Homosexuality is a choice.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Homosexuality is a choice.

94528 :rolleyes:

[Sam!]

Homosexuality is a choice.
Prove it, if you want. Realistically, it has little bearing on the rightness or wrongness of it.

[Pouye]

I think you miss the point. You say you are a male and therefore attracted to females. Homosexuals are not wired that way. They are naturally attracted to males, and not to females. So their nature is sinful with a predisposition to sin. We are all sinners; sin is sin.

I'm not convinced that homosexuals are more naturally predisposed to sin by nature than anyone else. Heterosexuals also have sinful desires regarding sex.

I believe all people are sinners because we were all created with a free will and natural desires. Desires are not inherently sinful unless they are acted upon sinfully. For instance, a newborn has natural desires for food, comfort, touch and other stimulation necessary for healthy development. None of those desires are evil. Hunger for food and water are natural appetites that Jesus had as both an infant and an adult. The desire for food, water and sexual fulfillment is therefor not evil just because it is inherently selfish (meaning having to do with the self).

I believe that as people experience life, their experiences, genetically inherited traits, and their choices have a dynamic impact on who they become as adults. A person doesn't need to be born with a supposed "sin nature" to desire food, comfort, etc. Jesus desired all of these things. A person doesn't need to be born with a sin nature to sin (do something that displeases God), since Adam and Eve didn't have one and they both sinned.

I believe that human beings in general are born with similar appetites/desires, but not identical. I also believe that certain experiences (especially traumatic ones as a child) can have a dramatic impact on a person's life choices and direction. The fact that identical twins can be one straight and the other gay indicates clearly that there are other factors than genetic ones when it comes to homosexuality.

Because a person has a desire does not mean that it needs to be acted on. That is where Western culture, which is into the idea that any self-denial is a bad thing, has it wrong. Just because I have a desire to drink alcohol doesn't mean I can justify drinking it. Just because I have a desire to fornicate as a single person doesn't mean I should act on that desire. Just because I'm attracted to other women while I'm married doesn't mean I am justified in committing adultery. Our culture tends tends to view self-denial as worse than the alternatives of acting on our desires -- even when the outcome is doing something that is displeasing to God (sinful).

There are case study after case study that shows that people who are experienced to certain life experiences have tendencies to desire a certain set of things. For example, a child who never bonds to a parent/caregiver can develop what is called reactive attachment disorder (or another similar disorder). Only now are people beginning to understand these types of "non-bonding" disorders and the horrible impact that such neglect can inflict on the well-being of an otherwise physically healthy child.

On the same note, many homosexual men have had very life impacting issues with their mothers. I know this isn't the case for all, but it does show a very distinct pattern in actual studies. I know this to be true with a relative of mine who is gay. His mother was very domineering and often treated him harshly. His father was mostly absent. He became very obsessive with her, often having unusual fears and dreams that she might die. He loved her but he could never seem to get from her the love he so desperately wanted. This had a profound affect on his sexuality, questioning his own masculinity. He later began to search for masculinity in men.

My point here is that desire is a complex issue. Why one person desires one thing and another person another thing is not just genetic, not just biological, not just environmental, not just personality, not just choices and responses. It is a combination of all of these things plus probably many more. There are many factors to desire, but desire itself isn't the problem -- it is how we act on our desires. Do we choose to act on our desires in a way that pleases God or not? Eve saw that the fruit was good for food (she desired it for nutrition), pleasing to the eye (she desired it for its beauty), and good for wisdom (a desire for increasing her wisdom/knowledge). None of those desires are inherently evil desires. But the choice to disobey God by acting on even "good" desires was evil.

Desires are not necessarily sinful. But the Bible makes it clear that our desires can lead to sinful thoughts and behaviors. If I (being married) find myself desiring another woman, Jesus says I'm committing adultery in my heart. That is not the same thing as feeling an attraction toward another woman because she is attractive to me. The thought process would go from "innocent" attraction to lustful thoughts of being with her intimately, to coveting her for myself (the last two being sinful).

I don't know one married man who hasn't at times had a desire to be with another woman, even if it were only in thought. I don't know many married women who haven't also wished/desired to be with a different man (or kind of man) than their husband (the old, "I wish my husband was more like so-and-so"). Those are often very strong desires, but when acted on they are called adultery (either in thought or in real action). Some people justify the action(s) because their desire is so strong. But having a strong desire to do something has never been a justification for sin. God doesn't care how strong a person's desire is for a certain behavior. No temptation is so strong that a person has to sin. It might be very strong, but not so strong that God cannot help them overcome it:

"But remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can't stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it."
1 Corinthians 10:13-

My last point, building on this already huge post, is this:
Even if a single Christian feels a strong desire to be sexually intimate with the opposite sex (which is completely natural), that doesn't mean he/she is justified in acting on this without first getting married (even if all of his/her friends are doing it!). Just because a married person has a strong desire for an intimate relationship with another besides his/her spouse (again, completely natural) doesn't mean there is justification for adultery and/or lustful or covetous thoughts. Just because a man or woman has a strong desire for sexual intimacy with the same sex (which I would argue is natural for some), doesn't mean that he/she is justified in acting on that desire.

Any desire that a person commits a sin over is "natural" in that it is common to human beings (in general) world-wide:

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to humanity."
1 Corinthians 10:13-

The desire to murder, rape, envy, be jealous, lust, engage in illicit behaviors sexually, etc. are all common to humanity. It is what we choose to actually do with those "natural" desires that determines if we sin or not. I keep putting the word 'natural' in quotes because in all reality, anything besides what God would consider good is unnatural -- or not part of His original intention for His creation and for the human beings He created.

Rock

[Evanescence]

If we could prove that people can be born gay...would Christians believe it? Nope. Just like the whole Creation/Evolution debate...earth age and Dinosaurs...

I believe we may see this in th next 20-50 yrs and all things will change. First we have to clearly DEIFINE homosexual...before we condemn others. Clearly define it, then go from there....

..and we can't, so its all up to God...

[Howlin' Wolf]

Homosexuality is a choice.

all sin is a choice. attraction isnt.

[Genna14]

I'm officially closing my mouth on this topic around here. Thanks so much for accepting me in love *the few of you who actually have, you know who you are and a GENUINE thank you goes to you*

[Sam!]

If we could prove that people can be born gay...would Christians believe it? Nope. Just like the whole Creation/Evolution debate...earth age and Dinosaurs...

I believe we may see this in th next 20-50 yrs and all things will change. First we have to clearly DEIFINE homosexual...before we condemn others. Clearly define it, then go from there....

..and we can't, so its all up to God...
See, here's the thing. Whether or not a person is born gay has little or no bearing at all on whether homosexual desires and actions are morally acceptable. It only matters if you accept the pseudo-theological argument that "I'm born this way" + "God doesn't make mistakes" means it's okay. We're ALL born into sin -- it's not okay for us to stay that way, even though it's literally natural!

Imagine a person whose brain is hardwired to violence. Perhaps they've suffered brain trauma and that is the result. It's not "okay" for them to be kill simply because it's biologically natural. I don't equate the two things (killing vs. being gay) but the argument just doesn't hold water.

[Sam!]

I'm officially closing my mouth on this topic around here. Thanks so much for accepting me in love *the few of you who actually have, you know who you are and a GENUINE thank you goes to you*
Nobody's rejecting you. We disagree with you and we believe there is a part of your life that is in need of correction. None of us could say anythign different about our own lives.

I disagree with my wife about things, I assure you that doesn't mean I don't love her. And if she sins, my love for her compels me to speak up (gently but firmly). If our love for each other doesn't exempt correction, why do you think you are exempt from the correction of the church?

[Pouye]

I'm officially closing my mouth on this topic around here. Thanks so much for accepting me in love *the few of you who actually have, you know who you are and a GENUINE thank you goes to you*

1. Jesus loved the woman at the well. She was a five-time divorcee who was living with a guy who she wasn't married to. She became a believer in Jesus and found forgiveness.

2. Jesus loved a woman caught in adultery. She left Jesus forgiven of her sin.

3. Jesus loved a woman who was a prostitute, and allowed her to touch Him. She found forgiveness and became a disciple.

--------

1. Did Jesus approve of the behavior of the woman at the well? Did he tell her it was fine to be shacking up with a guy?

2. Did Jesus tell this woman that adultery was okay?

3. Did Jesus approve of Mary's prostitution?

--------

As you can see from the above examples, love does not mean approval of sinful behavior. Wouldn't you agree?

Rock

[Evanescence]

See, here's the thing. Whether or not a person is born gay has little or no bearing at all on whether homosexual desires and actions are morally acceptable. It only matters if you accept the pseudo-theological argument that "I'm born this way" + "God doesn't make mistakes" means it's okay. We're ALL born into sin -- it's not okay for us to stay that way, even though it's literally natural!

Imagine a person whose brain is hardwired to violence. Perhaps they've suffered brain trauma and that is the result. It's not "okay" for them to be kill simply because it's biologically natural. I don't equate the two things (killing vs. being gay) but the argument just doesn't hold water.

Genna, good luck and I have SO MUCH respect for you for being brave on an issue like this...

Let's look at the man who killed the Amish kids here. A man planned and stalked a school filled with the apitome of innocent. Amish kids. he dismiised the boys and baracaded himself inside. He TRIED and WANTED to molest...but did not. He killed 5 execution style and wounded 5. He wounded the hearts of DOZENS..and then killed himself.

He was nuts. No question here. His actions are beyond nuts...but yet, i believe he will not be judged by God for what he did, however horrific. he was not able to control his actions.

Now, gays and sicko murderers are NOT near the same. By far. But, I'm not going to buy that God is going to judge a persons 1. Born gay 2. Not Born gay in the same light.

Would God judge a woman who prostitutes herself to pay for food for her child, in sheer desperation? Nope...no way.

We try to assume absolutes with God..and only have the bible to fill our agendas. But, myself and a lot of other Christians aint buying it. Guess we'll find out...

BTW- No one clearly defined gay yet...

[Aussie3rddayfan]

1. Jesus loved the woman at the well. She was a five-time divorcee who was living with a guy who she wasn't married to. She became a believer in Jesus and found forgiveness.

2. Jesus loved a woman caught in adultery. She left Jesus forgiven of her sin.

3. Jesus loved a woman who was a prostitute, and allowed her to touch Him. She found forgiveness and became a disciple.

--------

1. Did Jesus approve of the behavior of the woman at the well? Did he tell her it was fine to be shacking up with a guy?

2. Did Jesus tell this woman that adultery was okay?

3. Did Jesus approve of Mary's prostitution?

--------

As you can see from the above examples, love does not mean approval of sinful behavior. Wouldn't you agree?

Rock

I concur.

I take my leave.

[Sam!]

Genna, good luck and I have SO MUCH respect for you for being brave on an issue like this...

Let's look at the man who killed the Amish kids here. A man planned and stalked a school filled with the apitome of innocent. Amish kids. he dismiised the boys and baracaded himself inside. He TRIED and WANTED to molest...but did not. He killed 5 execution style and wounded 5. He wounded the hearts of DOZENS..and then killed himself.

He was nuts. No question here. His actions are beyond nuts...but yet, i believe he will not be judged by God for what he did, however horrific. he was not able to control his actions.

Now, gays and sicko murderers are NOT near the same. By far. But, I'm not going to buy that God is going to judge a persons 1. Born gay 2. Not Born gay in the same light.

Would God judge a woman who prostitutes herself to pay for food for her child, in sheer desperation? Nope...no way.

We try to assume absolutes with God..and only have the bible to fill our agendas. But, myself and a lot of other Christians aint buying it. Guess we'll find out...

BTW- No one clearly defined gay yet...
Where in the world do you get the idea that a just God doesn't judge wickedness?

[Pouye]

Where in the world do you get the idea that a just God doesn't judge wickedness?

I say, who's to say how God will judge?

Saying God will not judge a certain person for a certain action is just as ignorant as saying God will judge a certain person for a certain action. We all know that God will judge everyone according to our actions in this life. But not one of us can say how God will or will not judge. We aren't on the bench, we don't wear the wig, and we don't hold the gavel.

The mystery is in God's will in the matter:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Exodus 33:19b

We all take comfort in the idea that God is fair and just. But what does fairness and justice have to do with mercy and compassion? Many times God has "relented" because of His namesake and because of His love, compassion, and mercy. God gives grace to anyone He so chooses -- and that means people like you and me aren't getting what we deserved to get.

There was nothing fair or just about Jesus' crucifixion. Yet the Bible says it pleased God to do it, and Jesus said He did it voluntarily!

So in light of this, my point is that nobody knows how God is going to judge each person. To say with any certainty God *is not* going to judge "that starving man for stealing", is trying to tell God how He is going to judge, or pretending to know how He is going to judge. To say He *is* going to judge "that starving man for stealing" is doing the same.

Rock

[Pouye]

all sin is a choice. attraction isnt.

True. Attraction isn't a sin. If a person is attracted to the same sex and yet doesn't act on that attraction (in thought or deed), no sin is committed. Since Jesus said adultery can be committed in the heart, (as well as murder), then we know that our thought life can certainly be sinful. But feelings such as anger, attraction, fear, etc. are not sinful. We can't help our feelings, but we CAN help how we think or act on them.

Rock

[Sam!]

I say, who's to say how God will judge?

Saying God will not judge a certain person for a certain action is just as ignorant as saying God will judge a certain person for a certain action. We all know that God will judge everyone according to our actions in this life. But not one of us can say how God will or will not judge. We aren't on the bench, we don't wear the wig, and we don't hold the gavel.

The mystery is in God's will in the matter:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Exodus 33:19b

We all take comfort in the idea that God is fair and just. But what does fairness and justice have to do with mercy and compassion? Many times God has "relented" because of His namesake and because of His love, compassion, and mercy. God gives grace to anyone He so chooses -- and that means people like you and me aren't getting what we deserved to get.

There was nothing fair or just about Jesus' crucifixion. Yet the Bible says it pleased God to do it, and Jesus said He did it voluntarily!

So in light of this, my point is that nobody knows how God is going to judge each person. To say with any certainty God *is not* going to judge "that starving man for stealing", is trying to tell God how He is going to judge, or pretending to know how He is going to judge. To say He *is* going to judge "that starving man for stealing" is doing the same.

Rock

Mercy and compassion are meaningless without judgment. To say that God will have compassion or relent is one thing... to say that he will simply excuse or look the other way because "we had no choice" is a different thing. God is merciful, and not just for heterosexuals. This I know. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking if we can rationalize something God will just look the other way.

[Genna14]

Nobody's rejecting you. We disagree with you and we believe there is a part of your life that is in need of correction. None of us could say anythign different about our own lives.

I disagree with my wife about things, I assure you that doesn't mean I don't love her. And if she sins, my love for her compels me to speak up (gently but firmly). If our love for each other doesn't exempt correction, why do you think you are exempt from the correction of the church?

1. Jesus loved the woman at the well. She was a five-time divorcee who was living with a guy who she wasn't married to. She became a believer in Jesus and found forgiveness.

2. Jesus loved a woman caught in adultery. She left Jesus forgiven of her sin.

3. Jesus loved a woman who was a prostitute, and allowed her to touch Him. She found forgiveness and became a disciple.

--------

1. Did Jesus approve of the behavior of the woman at the well? Did he tell her it was fine to be shacking up with a guy?

2. Did Jesus tell this woman that adultery was okay?

3. Did Jesus approve of Mary's prostitution?

--------

As you can see from the above examples, love does not mean approval of sinful behavior. Wouldn't you agree?

Rock

I AM NOT IN SIN

and that's what I've been trying to say but you know what? It is useless. I wash my hands of this thread.

[Jesuslove]

Mercy and compassion are meaningless without judgment. To say that God will have compassion or relent is one thing... to say that he will simply excuse or look the other way because "we had no choice" is a different thing. God is merciful, and not just for heterosexuals. This I know. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking if we can rationalize something God will just look the other way.

Here's how I see it......

sexuality is NOT a choice. we don't choose who we're attracted to... that comes natural to us.

Attraction is not a sin. Actions result in sin.

I do not judge others' sexually. I know of elderly adults that sleep together for companionship. I know another elderly couple that cannot marry or they would lose health benefits from their deceased spouse. So are they living in sin because they seek companionship, but cannot marry? Likewise, I know homosexuals who are unable to marry under the law. I leave judgement up to God. That's His job. My job is to love everyone despite race, creed, color, gender, sexual orientation, or sin.

[Howlin' Wolf]

i like sex

[rossid]

Okay is love a choice?

[Jesuslove]

See, here's the thing. Whether or not a person is born gay has little or no bearing at all on whether homosexual desires and actions are morally acceptable. It only matters if you accept the pseudo-theological argument that "I'm born this way" + "God doesn't make mistakes" means it's okay. We're ALL born into sin -- it's not okay for us to stay that way, even though it's literally natural!

Imagine a person whose brain is hardwired to violence. Perhaps they've suffered brain trauma and that is the result. It's not "okay" for them to be kill simply because it's biologically natural. I don't equate the two things (killing vs. being gay) but the argument just doesn't hold water.

Your argument holds no water. You are comparing the love between two individuals to a violent act. As if someone who is gay is equal to someone who has suffered brain trauma.

I agree with Ev. Even if science is able to prove that homosexuality isn't a choice, Christians will never accept it because it would mean they would have to rethink their position. And Jesus never expressly spoke about homosexuality.

[Jesuslove]

Okay is love a choice?

sometimes, sometimes not.

[cheewiee]

Your argument holds no water. You are comparing the love between two individuals to a violent act. As if someone who is gay is equal to someone who has suffered brain trauma.

I agree with Ev. Even if science is able to prove that homosexuality isn't a choice, Christians will never accept it because it would mean they would have to rethink their position. And Jesus never expressly spoke about homosexuality.

Doesn't even matter.... So let's not use violence as the example... Lets look at someone like Charles Stanely, renowned Baptist Televangelist.

He was married for a very long time, and his wife left him, and divorced him.

Because of this, and his views on divorce, he is not remarrying. He is undoubtably a heterosexual yet chosing to reject his own desires for God's best.

[Pouye]

Even if science is able to prove that homosexuality isn't a choice, Christians will never accept it because it would mean they would have to rethink their position. And Jesus never expressly spoke about homosexuality.


I wouldn't have to rethink anything. Everyone knows that marriage between one man and one woman for a lifetime really isn't natural, nor is it natural to remain celibate until marriage. Behaviorists will tell you that fornication and adultery are simply natural desires. It takes strong fortitude, conviction and the suppression of these desires to not do them -- and so it takes doing what is unnatural to remain celibate until married and to stay married.

edit: I'm using "natural" in the sense of what is natural for this fallen world, not what was natural in Eden.
Rock

[Jesuslove]

So it's a catch 22.. Since gays can't marry, they are expected to remain celibate for life. I don't think it's natural for people regardless of sexual orientation to remain celibate for a lifetime.

[rossid]

Adultery is adultery. Now we have different views of marriage which affects our opinion on adultery.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Alcoholism, by the way, is also hereditary.

Not always. Addictive tendencies can be hereditary. Do you have any statistics to back up that claim? I'm not being contentious; I truly would like to learn.

Sorry, I forgot I even posted on this thread. I was referring to addictive tendencies. The study was done by University of Granada, and the condition used was alcoholism. There's no gene that makes one crave alcohol, however, addictive tendencies coupled with the environment are a result of it. In other words, some of us are wired to depend on something.

On the subject of God "not making a mistake", what about eunuchs? or those born with both genitals and the parents have to decide what to operate and correct them as?

[WeaselInYerFoot]

So it's a catch 22.. Since gays can't marry, they are expected to remain celibate for life. I don't think it's natural for people regardless of sexual orientation to remain celibate for a lifetime.

Technically, gays are celibate regardless of what they do with another man.

[cheewiee]

So it's a catch 22.. Since gays can't marry, they are expected to remain celibate for life. I don't think it's natural for people regardless of sexual orientation to remain celibate for a lifetime.

Tell that to Charles Stanley who has to remain celibate because his wife left him....

[Howlin' Wolf]

So it's a catch 22.. Since gays can't marry, they are expected to remain celibate for life. I don't think it's natural for people regardless of sexual orientation to remain celibate for a lifetime.

"Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

Thread. Stopper.

[Evanescence]

Tell that to Charles Stanley who has to remain celibate because his wife left him....

No proof of his cebeacy except his word...and I'm sure mentally he hasnt been. Kinda like the wanna be Jesus Freaks who go on national television bragging baout being virgins or "new" virgins...but stall like a deer in the headlights when asked about self-pleasure.

99% BS.

[Jesuslove]

Technically, gays are celibate regardless of what they do with another man.

That's a very interesting perspective.

[Valpo]

Thread. Stopper.

kudos...figured before this spiraled into moral relativism I'd give you props for citing SCRIPTURE

[Evanescence]

What amzes me is how many MEN...hate gays or condemn/spak out against gays etc etc, gross disgusting wrong sinful etc etc...

But the same guys are excited by lesbianism. They may not admit it...but they do. Not all men...but some.

There should be some consistency there...

[Valpo]

What amzes me is how many MEN...hate gays or condemn/spak out against gays etc etc, gross disgusting wrong sinful etc etc...

But the same guys are excited by lesbianism. They may not admit it...but they do. Not all men...but some.

There should be some consistency there...

Agreed E. I for one do not "get excited" over lesbianism.

[Jesuslove]

But the same guys are excited by lesbianism. They may not admit it...but they do. Not all men...but some.

There should be some consistency there...
Let's be honest... most heterosexual men.

[Valpo]

I'm not so sure heterosexual men of God get too excited over it either though, if at all! Otherwise they aren't behaving like men of God. Aside from struggling with lust, I have not met a churchly man who has openly publicized his support for Lesbian Porn.

We may be comparing apples to oranges here...

[Jesuslove]

Aside from struggling with lust, I have not met a churchly man who has openly publicized his support for Lesbian Porn.

We may be comparing apples to oranges here...

I have no doubt that no openly Christian man would publicize his support for Lesbian porn, but I also believe that many Christian men are closeted lesbian porn watchers. Just my opinion. We'll never really know the answer.

[Valpo]

We'll never really know the answer.

prob best to employ the 8th commandment then since we don't know, speak well of our fellow Christian men, instead of speculating on their potential dark sins

[Evanescence]

I have no doubt that no openly Christian man would publicize his support for Lesbian porn, but I also believe that many Christian men are closeted lesbian porn watchers. Just my opinion. We'll never really know the answer.


LOL...yep. I'll say this. Perhaps a man may never have seen such a thing..therefore doesnt understand it. But if they did...lets say out in the woods, stumble upon such a thing....he'd stay there for a few extra seconds to take it all in.

It has nothing to do with Godly vs unGodly...its just what men do. But the Godly men know how to hide their tracks and lie about it better...

Thus the hypocrisy of condemning gay men but having buttery fly arousal over lesbianism...

Just be honest...sheesh...

[Evanescence]

..and to add to it further. When it comes to sexual sin...NONE of us, with the exception of a few is without sin. Therefore, it must be a very careful process to condemn anyone for anything near the sort. For whatever we are condemning...we have done or want to do...

[Jesuslove]

It has nothing to do with Godly vs unGodly...its just what men do. But the Godly men know how to hide their tracks and lie about it better...

Thus the hypocrisy of condemning gay men but having buttery fly arousal over lesbianism...

Just be honest...sheesh...

Yes, Godly men ARE better at hiding their tracks. Ungodly people just don't care. The Godly men that do get caught.... well their congregations are usually horrified and in doubt.

Reminds me of Ted Haggard, former head of the Evangelical Movement in America. He railed against homosexuals on Sundays, but led a secret double life where he was using $ to pay for prostitutes, buying and using crystal meth, and having sex with men. So much for the wayward pastor's kids... watch out for the wayward pastor. On Sundays, he was the vision of a child of God. He lived the American dream as a Christian man. He was married with children, but his hidden lifestyle was far more out of control than any openly gay person I know.

[Valpo]

Gentlemen, let's cut the church bashing and get at the crux of the issue: SIN. Sure, godly men sin but they know it is wrong! So even if they do "stick around to take it all in" they are probably horrified with their actions and repent of them and do not PROMOTE or SUPPORT them. To say otherwise is junior high gossip.

[Evanescence]

Sorry Valpo...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/scooterl/Captobvious.gif

[prayercloth sis]

What a thread....my goodness...

sin is sin...and preachers are supposed to preach on sin, love ...all of it...

and there are guidelines for it all....

just preach the word and line up...

[Sam!]

Yes, Godly men ARE better at hiding their tracks. Ungodly people just don't care. The Godly men that do get caught.... well their congregations are usually horrified and in doubt.

Reminds me of Ted Haggard, former head of the Evangelical Movement in America. He railed against homosexuals on Sundays, but led a secret double life where he was using $ to pay for prostitutes, buying and using crystal meth, and having sex with men. So much for the wayward pastor's kids... watch out for the wayward pastor. On Sundays, he was the vision of a child of God. He lived the American dream as a Christian man. He was married with children, but his hidden lifestyle was far more out of control than any openly gay person I know.
It's funny, we are accused of being the ignorant ones... and yet you seem to be the one who insists on identifying homosexual people with their sexual orientation. We condemn something as sinful, and you assume we are condemning the person. That's only true if the person is only valued as much as their sexuality. Because I see the value in all people (we're all eternal souls, after all) I have no problem saying "this is sinful" without declaring the person as worth less or somehow more sinful than I am.

Who cares what "most people" do? When Noah and his family were being saved, the entire world was so unbelievably wicked as to make God sorry for creating mankind. That did not excuse anything. If "most" Christian men seek out lesbian porn, then the church needs to do a better job preaching and teaching. I agree that there's probably a high percentage, but I don't think it's over 50% (most). I think your insistence that the existence of some bad, sinful, hypocritical Christians and ministers means that you just assume almost all Christians are that way is also sinful. Doesn't mean I value you less.

[Jesuslove]

It's funny, we are accused of being the ignorant ones... and yet you seem to be the one who insists on identifying homosexual people with their sexual orientation. We condemn something as sinful, and you assume we are condemning the person. That's only true if the person is only valued as much as their sexuality. Because I see the value in all people (we're all eternal souls, after all) I have no problem saying "this is sinful" without declaring the person as worth less or somehow more sinful than I am.

Who cares what "most people" do? When Noah and his family were being saved, the entire world was so unbelievably wicked as to make God sorry for creating mankind. That did not excuse anything. If "most" Christian men seek out lesbian porn, then the church needs to do a better job preaching and teaching. I agree that there's probably a high percentage, but I don't think it's over 50% (most). I think your insistence that the existence of some bad, sinful, hypocritical Christians and ministers means that you just assume almost all Christians are that way is also sinful. Doesn't mean I value you less.

All I'm sayin' is that it is not acceptable to think of anyone as less than. We are all sinners. Growing up, some in my community thought of Jews as less than. You'd hear the term "dirty Jew". In church, we were told that the Jews killed Jesus. It's just plain wrong. It's wrong to teach children that God views anyone as less than.

[Evanescence]

Chrisitans are obsessed with SEX, SEX, SEX....sex of all kinds. They wanna know everything about what and who....when and where...and feel they have to comment on it. And they hate gays...except when it hits close to home...

[Sam!]

Chrisitans are obsessed with SEX, SEX, SEX....sex of all kinds. They wanna know everything about what and who....when and where...and feel they have to comment on it. And they hate gays...except when it hits close to home...

You and JL keep saying this but that doesn't make it true. Not all Christians are obsessed with sex. Our culture is obsessed with sex and the Church might just be trying to do its job--speak God's truth into the world. We don't all hate gays, either--and the fact that you'd come here and say that is just as ignorant as you accuse all those dumb ol' conservatives of being.

[Sam!]

When did I ever say it was OK to think of anybody as "less than"? I do not believe it's okay. In "What's So Amazing About Grace?" Philip Yancey recounts the story of a young woman (prostitute?) in need of urgent help. I can't remember what it was, but she had a physical need (housing or medical care, I think) that was extremely urgent. He asked if she'd tried the church up the road. "No," she said. "I already feel terrible. Why would I go to church?" (I'm paraphrasing here). It saddens me that so many think that way because so many churches do a poor job either (1) loving people or (2) expressing themselves in a way that communicates love.

That doesn't mean what the church believes about sin is wrong -- it's in the execution that they are failing.

[bholdj]

Henri Nouwen: The Wounded Healer, great book!

Might I add that his testimony regarding this issue is intresting. Apparently, he believed that he was gay but never acted on it, why? Because he didn't want to harm his relationship with Jesus.

Got to run, Evan my son is awake!! :eek:

[Jesuslove]

We don't all hate gays, either--and the fact that you'd come here and say that is just as ignorant as you accuse all those dumb ol' conservatives of being.

It depends how you define hate. For many Christians that I know, they can't distinguish between the sin and the sinner. Most gay people I know really believe that Christians hate them. They feel as if denying someone civil rights is equivalent to hating them.

I have to agree with Ev. I know SOME Christian people at work who are very gossipy, particularly about sexuality. They often talk about people's sex lives and try to guess who is gay. It gets too personal for me and I stay out of it.

[Sam!]

It depends how you define hate. For many Christians that I know, they can't distinguish between the sin and the sinner. Most gay people I know really believe that Christians hate them. They feel as if denying someone civil rights is equivalent to hating them.

I have to agree with Ev. I know SOME Christian people at work who are very gossipy, particularly about sexuality. They often talk about people's sex lives and try to guess who is gay. It gets too personal for me and I stay out of it.

That's all fine. I don't deny that there are Christians who behave that way. It's unfair, imo, to characterize Christians as all behaving that way. And when one says "Christians are obsessed with sex", etc., that is exactly what's happening. FWIW I work with a lot of Christians, and these topics almost never come up. I can think of only one instance, and it was relevant to the job. So... there ya go. Different experiences.

[Jesuslove]

That's all fine. I don't deny that there are Christians who behave that way. It's unfair, imo, to characterize Christians as all behaving that way. And when one says "Christians are obsessed with sex", etc., that is exactly what's happening. FWIW I work with a lot of Christians, and these topics almost never come up. I can think of only one instance, and it was relevant to the job. So... there ya go. Different experiences.

it came up and it was relevant to your job? do you work in the sex industry?

I didn't say Christians were obsessed with sex, but I do know some who are, as they have hangups related to repressed sexuality.

[Sam!]

You didn't say it, Evanescence said it.

And yes, it was relevant to the job. An employee violated the standards for conduct for that position with the organization. It involved one or more sexual acts or behaviors. I don't owe you an explanation but you might consider apologizing for your incredulity. Believe it or not, I sometimes tell the truth.

[Evanescence]

it came up and it was relevant to your job? do you work in the sex industry?


LMBO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jesuslove]

You didn't say it, Evanescence said it.

And yes, it was relevant to the job. An employee violated the standards for conduct for that position with the organization. It involved one or more sexual acts or behaviors. I don't owe you an explanation but you might consider apologizing for your incredulity. Believe it or not, I sometimes tell the truth.

I didn't say you were lying. You don't owe me an explanation. My comment was meant as a joke.

[Evanescence]

I didn't say you were lying. You don't owe me an explanation. My comment was meant as a joke.

Hey, there's a good question for the sin pointers. Can a Christian work at a place that makes or sells sex aparatus/paraphenalia?

Do Chrisitans even have sex?

Hmmm...a paradox? :P

[Howlin' Wolf]

this thread has gone down the damn toilet.

[Howlin' Wolf]

JL and Ev, are you guys trying to set some sort of online record for most straw men arguments ever posted in a thread?

[Evanescence]

...al things are relevant.... :P

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c97/scooterl/septicsign.jpg

[rossid]

So I still drink my dMD but am keenly "aware" of this company's actions just like any other company on any other issue on which I am convicted by the Holy Spirit.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: AFA Action Alert <contact@afa.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:40:16 AM
Subject: Pepsi refuses to be neutral in the culture war, remains the leading corporate sponsor of homosexual group



Donald E. Wildmon
Founder and
Chairman

Please help us get this information into the hands of as many people as possible by forwarding it to your entire e-mail list of family and friends.

Pepsi refuses to be neutral in the culture war, remains the leading corporate sponsor of homosexual group

PepsiCo is the leading corporate sponsor of Parents, Families, & Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)

March 25, 2009

Dear Friend,

Like AFA, Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays (PFOX) has its own problems with PepsiCo. PFOX works to help those who desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle.

By issuing national press releases against PFOX, by organizing protests at ex-gay conferences, by publishing anti-ex-gay literature, and by opposing ex-gays equal access to public venues, Pepsi-supported Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) contributes to the intolerance of the ex-gay community, stereotypes former homosexuals, and continually misrepresents PFOX’s mission.

PFLAG is a vocal and activist homosexual group that calls those who oppose homosexual marriage "the forces of prejudice and discrimination." PFLAG not only cheered the California Supreme Court’s ruling on May 15 which legalized same-sex marriage, it was also vociferous in its opposition to Proposition 8, the ballot initiative which restored traditional marriage in California on Election Day.

By funding PFLAG, PepsiCo and its shareholders help promote fear and hostility against the ex-gay community and other heterosexuals. PepsiCo is the leading corporate sponsor of PFLAG.

Clearly, PepsiCo has no intentions of being neutral in the culture war. Instead, PepsiCo has thrown their entire influence behind the homosexual movement. Some shareholders will introduce a resolution in the upcoming PepsiCo meeting, asking it to be neutral in the culture war.

Take Action!
• Sign the Boycott Pepsi Pledge. After signing the pledge, please call Pepsi (914-253-2000 or 1-800-433-2652) and tell the company you will boycott its products until it stops promoting the homosexual agenda.
• Call the Pepsi bottler nearest you and ask it to stop supporting the homosexual agenda.
• Pepsi’s products include Pepsi soft drinks, Frito-Lay chips and snacks (800-352-4477), Quaker Oats (800-367-6287), Tropicana (800-237-7799) and Gatorade (800-884-2867).
• Print the Boycott Pepsi Pledge and distribute it.
• Forward this e-mail to your friends and family so they will know about Pepsi’s support of the homosexual agenda. Millions of people are not aware of Pepsi’s support of homosexual organizations.



Thank you for caring enough to get involved. If you feel our efforts are worthy of support, would you consider making a small tax-deductible contribution to help us continue?


Sincerely,

Donald E. Wildmon,
Founder and Chairman

[Howlin' Wolf]

oh brother

[Jesuslove]

So I still drink my dMD but am keenly "aware" of this company's actions just like any other company on any other issue on which I am convicted by the Holy Spirit.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: AFA Action Alert <contact@afa.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:40:16 AM
Subject: Pepsi refuses to be neutral in the culture war, remains the leading corporate sponsor of homosexual group



Donald E. Wildmon
Founder and
Chairman Sincerely,

Donald E. Wildmon,
Founder and Chairman

what a joke. PFLAG is not even a group made up of gay people.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

So when are we going to start boycotting the biggest oppressing government in history? If we're so gun-ho about teh gayz, and so firm on our moral compass, we'll start boycotting all things made in China, correct? Certainly, such an atrociously controlling fist on a country is worse than homosexuality. Oh wait, it's too much to do, too inconvenient. We'd rather stay in our holy huddle and bicker.

I love it. We're willing to "stand up for what's right" by not changing (teh gayz), and we're willing to ignore what's wrong by still not changing (Not buying products made in China).After which we turn around and claim that the only reason people don't like us is because "we're a light in their darkness", and "Jesus said they'd hate us".

[The Unknown Gomer]

By funding PFLAG, PepsiCo and its shareholders help promote fear and hostility against the ex-gay community and other heterosexuals.

:eek: ... :confused: ... :rolleyes: ... :mad: ...

Gee, whole pile of mixed emotions going through my head over THAT statement...

What's funny is that PFLAG wouldn't even have to exist, except to stand together against all the organizations who are, to borrow a few of his words, "helping to promote fear and hostility" against the gay community.

*sigh* Of all the IMPORTANT things there are to fix in this world and people get fixated on THIS, which isn't even anyone else's business except for each of the two people involved the relationship. :rolleyes:

[Jesuslove]

:eek: ... :confused: ... :rolleyes: ... :mad: ...

Gee, whole pile of mixed emotions going through my head over THAT statement...

What's funny is that PFLAG wouldn't even have to exist, except to stand together against all the organizations who are, to borrow a few of his words, "helping to promote fear and hostility" against the gay community.

*sigh* Of all the IMPORTANT things there are to fix in this world and people get fixated on THIS, which isn't even anyone else's business except for each of the two people involved the relationship. :rolleyes:

Very well put!

[cheewiee]

*sigh* Of all the IMPORTANT things there are to fix in this world and people get fixated on THIS, which isn't even anyone else's business except for each of the two people involved the relationship. :rolleyes:

Helping people find freedom from the bondage's of sin isn't important?

[The Unknown Gomer]

*note: all of the following references to "you" are not talking about you personally, it's a generalized plural "you". Just wanted to clarify that since there was some confusion in one of the other threads about it.*

Helping people find freedom from the bondage's of sin isn't important?

And I'm sure that's exactly how you see it. Your religious beliefs are telling you it's a sin. And you're trying to help steer people away from that sin.

Except that - and I've said this several times before - just because they're what you believe in, doesn't make them fact. And a lot of people DON'T believe in them.

And what it boils down to is what you're actually doing is forcing those religious beliefs onto people who don't share them.

Jews believe different things than Christians. Muslims believe in different things then Christians. What's next? :confused: Are you going to write a proposition that says that Jews aren't going to be allowed to celebrate Hannukah because it's something you don't believe in? Oh, and an amendment that says no more Ramadan for the Muslims either, Christians don't believe in that.

Extreme example, obviously, but it's essentially the same idea. Forcing religious ideas and beliefs on people who don't believe the same way you do. And then to try and make those religious beliefs law. In a country that was founded on the idea of religious freedom.

There's a war on, the economy is in shambles, and we humans are wrecking the environment. So I say again, Yes, I find all of those things to be MUCH more important than what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes.

[cheewiee]

*note: all of the following references to "you" are not talking about you personally, it's a generalized plural "you". Just wanted to clarify that since there was some confusion in one of the other threads about it.*



And I'm sure that's exactly how you see it. Your religious beliefs are telling you it's a sin. And you're trying to help steer people away from that sin.

Except that - and I've said this several times before - just because they're what you believe in, doesn't make them fact. And a lot of people DON'T believe in them.

And what it boils down to is what you're actually doing is forcing those religious beliefs onto people who don't share them.

Jews believe different things than Christians. Muslims believe in different things then Christians. What's next? :confused: Are you going to write a proposition that says that Jews aren't going to be allowed to celebrate Hannukah because it's something you don't believe in? Oh, and an amendment that says no more Ramadan for the Muslims either, Christians don't believe in that.

Extreme example, obviously, but it's essentially the same idea. Forcing religious ideas and beliefs on people who don't believe the same way you do. And then to try and make those religious beliefs law. In a country that was founded on the idea of religious freedom.

There's a war on, the economy is in shambles, and we humans are wrecking the environment. So I say again, Yes, I find all of those things to be MUCH more important than what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes.

I am not forcing homosexuals to not be homosexual. Simply put, Scripture is clear, homosexuality is not God's plan. It is a perversion of what God designed. Paul in Romans is explicit, the further humanity moves away from God, the more and more perverse we will become.

You may not believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but you cannot argue with the fact that as our nation has moved away from God over the course of the past 5 decades our nation has become more and more perverse. Our culture has become centered around lust, gluttony, greed...

I don't care if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, because your believe does not negagte that it is, and the fact that the American Nation over the past 50 years has PROVEN Romans 1 to be true. The further from God we move, the more perverse we become.

The gospel isn't about not sinning. The Gospel in its purest form, is about being free from the bondages of sin. Homosexuality is a bondage. It is less that God's ideal. I am sorry if you think that you should be content in letting people live their life bound to something that our savior came and shed his blood to free them from.

I am not simply content in watching slaves be slaves, when their freedom has been purchased by Christ.

The war, the economy, quite frankly those are peripheral problems. They are more and less symptoms of man's bondage to sin. The economy, the war are all temporal problems that will go away, and come back again. They really are more symptoms of mans main problem, then problems of them self. And that main problem is man's bondage and slavery to sin.

That is why the sharing the Good News of Christ is far more important than those peripheral problems you named.

[Jesuslove]

I am not forcing homosexuals to not be homosexual. Simply put, Scripture is clear, homosexuality is not God's plan. It is a perversion of what God designed. Paul in Romans is explicit, the further humanity moves away from God, the more and more perverse we will become.


We've had this discussion before. Jesus is very clear on divorce. Yet we do not pass legislation making those who are divorced second class citizens. We are all sinners. No one has the right to withhold civil rights from another group, with which they disagree.

[Howlin' Wolf]

So when are we going to start boycotting the biggest oppressing government in history? If we're so gun-ho about teh gayz, and so firm on our moral compass, we'll start boycotting all things made in China, correct? Certainly, such an atrociously controlling fist on a country is worse than homosexuality. Oh wait, it's too much to do, too inconvenient. We'd rather stay in our holy huddle and bicker.

I love it. We're willing to "stand up for what's right" by not changing (teh gayz), and we're willing to ignore what's wrong by still not changing (Not buying products made in China).After which we turn around and claim that the only reason people don't like us is because "we're a light in their darkness", and "Jesus said they'd hate us".

I love it!

[Valpo]

boycotts like this do nothing. If you really want to create change then you can't publicly boycott pepsi bc they wont discriminate against homosexuals. THAT approach will never bring them to repentance and faith. It just makes you look ridiculous for boycotting a soft drink and making a big stink out of it because a company IN THE WORLD will not discriminate against them.

You want to privately boycott? Fine. Go for it. Want to explain to some close friends why you are? Have at it! But do not tell me I have to boycott Pepsi Co. because they allow homosexuals to be homosexual. Did Jesus boycott sinners? Good grief no. He ate dinner with them! Did he tell them they were A-Ok as sinners? Again, No. But he created a relational aspect with them which brought them to repentance and faith.

We'd be wise to do the same.

[cheewiee]

We've had this discussion before. Jesus is very clear on divorce. Yet we do not pass legislation making those who are divorced second class citizens. We are all sinners. No one has the right to withhold civil rights from another group, with which they disagree.

Was I talking about passing legislation? NO I WASN"T.

I was talking about the Gospel. Not passing laws.

[Jesuslove]

Was I talking about passing legislation? NO I WASN"T.

I was talking about the Gospel. Not passing laws.

Well sorry, but not everyone, even Christians see eye to eye with you on this subject. So what one person may see as sinful, another may not.

I have to agree with Valpo on this. A boycott will not change one person's heart. It is a giant waste of time and a real distraction from important issues facing our country and the world.

[rossid]

Parents, Families, & Friends of Adulterers and Gangsters (PFLAG)

Parents, Families, & Friends of Accountants and Government employees (PFLAG)

Who cares whether or not there are gay people, or adulterers, or accountants? Okay maybe someone cares. If you promote something against my beliefs based on the Word of God I can publicly stand opposed to it. Others choose not to and we must respect that too.

[cheewiee]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1875727]Well sorry, but not everyone, even Christians see eye to eye with you on this subject. So what one person may see as sinful, another may not.
[QUOTE]

So do you believe homosexuality is a sin?

[Jesuslove]

So do you believe homosexuality is a sin?

It depends how you define homosexuality. A thought? An act? Love between two people? Some Christian churches will marry gays. Some understand a different interpretation of the Bible. I believe sin is sin and we are all sinners. One's sin shouldn't prohibit two consenting non-related adults of sound mind from choosing to have a relationship in the form of marriage. Again, not every Christian agrees on this issue. And there is a separation between church and state.

[rossid]

He that desires it in his heart has already committed adultery.

Heterosexual, homosexual, animalsexual,... ;)

Adultery is not legal and I choose to teach my children that this act is wrong as it says in the Bible.

Homosexual marriage is not legal and I choose to teach my children that the act is wrong as it says in the Bible.

Not exacly analagous to each other buy you hopefully get the point that I do not believe consenting adults can do whatever they want to AND have it imposed on me as okay.

[Evanescence]

I wish Polygamy was accepted and legal... :cool:

[Sam!]

TUG: Just because you believe something is a gray area or debateable doesn't mean that there isn't an absolute right and wrong declared by God. If only He had written a book or something to let us know.

[rossid]

R u proposing to me e? :P

[cheewiee]

I wish Polygamy was accepted and legal... :cool:

No you don't... Don't believe me, netflix a couple of episodes of Big Love....

[cheewiee]

It depends how you define homosexuality. A thought? An act? Love between two people? Some Christian churches will marry gays. Some understand a different interpretation of the Bible. I believe sin is sin and we are all sinners. One's sin shouldn't prohibit two consenting non-related adults of sound mind from choosing to have a relationship in the form of marriage. Again, not every Christian agrees on this issue. And there is a separation between church and state.

How do you define it, and is it a sin?

[Evanescence]

Big Love...E style? Hmm...only with lovely ladies like may be on here..and of course like my wife...

Are you gay if you're still in the closet? Kinda like the tree in the forest...if it falls but no one is around...did it really fall?

[VerbumReale]

They way I look at it is, you're still a person no matter who you love. And we don't have the right to judge.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Oh contraire. Not only do we have a right to judge, but we are commanded to judge, at least when it comes to those within the church.

1st Corinthians 5 ESV
5:11
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
5:13
God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.

Matthew 7:1 is one of the most abused verses in scripture. In it's full context it is clear that it is not a call for the removal of judgment but a demand that judgement be consistent. An example of a violation of this in the case of homosexuality would be Ted Hagard prior to his being outed, and all the sermons he did, preaching the sinfulness of homosexuality, while secretly having a homosexual relationship himself.

And because Paul says that God judges outsiders, that does not mean we are not called to speak of these sins. How do you think it is that God judges?? It is through the proclaiming of His word. It simply means that, when it comes to outsiders, we proclaim the truth and trust the Word to do it's work, whereas among insiders the call is to hold them publically accountable, even to the point of naming them.

If you are a preacher of grace, then preach true grace and not a fictitious grace. If grace is true, then you must bear a true and not fictitious sin. God does not save people who are merely fictitious sinners.

—Martin Luther

That said. I lose no sleep over Pepsi's supporting gay organizations. There are other and more effective ways to stand up for the truth, such as, oh I don't know, proclaiming it.

[Sam!]

Oh contraire. Not only do we have a right to judge, but we are commanded to judge, at least when it comes to those within the church.

1st Corinthians 5 ESV
5:11
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
5:13
God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.

Matthew 7:1 is one of the most abused verses in scripture. In it's full context it is clear that it is not a call for the removal of judgment but a demand that judgement be consistent. An example of a violation of this in the case of homosexuality would be Ted Hagard prior to his being outed, and all the sermons he did, preaching the sinfulness of homosexuality, while secretly having a homosexual relationship himself.

And because Paul says that God judges outsiders, that does not mean we are not called to speak of these sins. How do you think it is that God judges?? It is through the proclaiming of His word. It simply means that, when it comes to outsiders, we proclaim the truth and trust the Word to do it's work, whereas among insiders the call is to hold them publically accountable, even to the point of naming them.

That said. I lose no sleep over Pepsi's supporting gay organizations. There are other and more effective ways to stand up for the truth, such as, oh I don't know, proclaiming it.

Good points. A quick note: it's not "you" as singular individuals who are to judge one another. The church collectively (illustrated, for example, in Matthew 18) exercises discipline. 1cor5 is not a license for us all to go around telling each other everything that's wrong in one another's lives. Planks and specks and all that, you know.

[VerbumReale]

Good points. A quick note: it's not "you" as singular individuals who are to judge one another. The church collectively (illustrated, for example, in Matthew 18) exercises discipline. 1cor5 is not a license for us all to go around telling each other everything that's wrong in one another's lives. Planks and specks and all that, you know.

I don't think I said it was. And while you are right the "you" indeed is not singular, but rather referring to the church, in these situations it may sometimes be necessary for the 'church' to be represented by an individual.

[The Unknown Gomer]

...You may not believe that the Bible is the Word of God... I don't care if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God...


TUG: Just because you believe something is a gray area or debateable doesn't mean that there isn't an absolute right and wrong declared by God. If only He had written a book or something to let us know.

And nowhere in my post have I said anything about what I personally believe. And I have no intention of going there, either. The last time I did that, suddenly - even though all I did was answer the question - I got a "so you ADMIT blah blah blah" like I was on trial or something. :rolleyes: And then to have people with differing beliefs being compared to serial killers? No thank you. Don't think I'll be sharing stuff like that here anymore.

...If only He had written a book or something to let us know.

Clever. ;) But again, something else I've already discussed elsewhere and have no intention of revisiting.

No matter. You have what you believe. (and again, unlike some folks, I'm again going with the plural "you", not you personally). While I think that standing up for your beliefs is fine (more than fine, it's necessary) and sharing them is definitely a good thing, that forcing them on someone else who doesn't believe in them or want them is wrong.

No you don't... Don't believe me, netflix a couple of episodes of Big Love....

Actually I've got that series in my Netflix queue right now. I figure since it's HBO (or Showtime, whichever) it's probably about an accurate representation of the polygamist lifestyle as Queer as Folk was about the gay lifestyle. Based on real ideas, but with a LOT of artistic license.

[VerbumReale]

No matter. You have what you believe. (and again, unlike some folks, I'm again going with the plural "you", not you personally). While I think that standing up for your beliefs is fine (more than fine, it's necessary) and sharing them is definitely a good thing, that forcing them on someone else who doesn't believe in them or want them is wrong.


But at what point does one cross the line from standing up for what they believe to imposing their beliefs on someone? I think we would all agree that Fred Phelps protesting Matthew Shepherd's funeral, or funerals of Iraq war vets with his "God hates fags" signs is clearly a case of someone unethically imposing their beliefs on a situation.

But, I think you would be hard-pressed to find a situation on an online form that could rightly be referred to as someone imposing their beliefs on you (using 'you' in the same manner you do).

I have had some pretty heated arguments with people on these boards, and I have crossed lines I should not have crossed in the heat of those discussions. But at no point would I say that anyone's beliefs were being imposed on anyone.

Is standing in front of Planned Parenthood with protest signs to the point of obstructing someone's ability to enter the clinic imposing your beliefs on someone? Yes I would say so. But is simply standing outside of a Planned Partenthood and handing out information about pregnancy crisis centers or adoption agencies because a person knows that someone going into Planned Parenthood is not going to made aware of these other options by the Planned Parenthood personell, imposing one's beliefs on someone?? I don't think so. It's creating awareness.

We have become far too sensitive to what constitutes someone imposing their beliefs on someone. This is why we have kids being suspended for reading a story out of the Bible for an assignment to bring in and read a favorite story of their's.