Israel tried to strongarm US/Raids on Iran...

[Evanescence]

http://news.aol.com/article/bush-nixed-israeli-plan-for-raid-on-iran/301093

Israel tried to get bunker busters from us to bomb Iran...Bushy said no...

Very surprising....

Zionist Israel cannot be trusted....they have infiltrated our Govt...long ago actually, and are dragging us deeper into their maniacal war with Islam...

This situation in the Mid-east will only get more and more tricky as time goes on...

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Haven't seen you round here in a while, E. What's been happening? I almost thought you'd gone soft and given up trying to convince us about conspiracy theories and the like. :P

BTW, what's your take on this whole Israel thing? I'd be interested to see...

[phil_ur_friend]

Look out!

He's got the poop, and he's headed strait for that fan! (cheezy, I know :D )

Phil, your friend

[Pouye]

Wow...

E, you need to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Antisemitism

"The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) (superseded in 2007 by the European Fundamental Rights Agency) noted an upswing in antisemitic incidents in France, Germany, the United Kingdom, Belgium, and The Netherlands between July 2003 and December 2004.[40] In September 2004, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance, a part of the Council of Europe, called on its member nations to ensure that anti-racist criminal law covers antisemitism, and in 2005, the EUMC offered a definition of antisemitism to enable a standard definition to be used for data collection:[41] "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred towards Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed towards Jews and non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, towards Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." The paper included some examples:

* Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;
* Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;
* Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;
* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;
* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.[42][43]

The EUMC added that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as antisemitism so long as it is "similar to that leveled against any other country."[42]

Methinks that those here who claim that the existence of the state of Israel is a racist endeavor are guilty of antisemitism...

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

arabs are semitic peoples but jews have monopolized the word. zionism places jews ahead of all races, which would make them as racist as any "ant-semite".

but the sheep in America dont want to believe this.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

arabs are semitic peoples but jews have monopolized the word. zionism places jews ahead of all races, which would make them as racist as any "ant-semite".

but the sheep in America dont want to believe this.

Why?

[Howlin' Wolf]

1. The Israeli propaganda machine. I challenge anybody here to find an article from the AP about any Israeli military incursion. In every instance it will use wording such as "retaliate" and "self-defense". They have murdered over 900 people, and every article will say they did it to defend themselves and in retaliation of Hamas firing rockets. When they murdered 3000 Lebanese 2 years ago, it was self defense from Hezballah and in retaliation for Hezballah kidmapping a soldier.

2. The church, which holds a huge influence over the way people think, teaches that Jews are chosen and the land is theirs per God's promise with Abraham. Galatians 3 debunks this myth so entirely that even Rock wont touch it.

[Pouye]

1. The Israeli propaganda machine. I challenge anybody here to find an article from the AP about any Israeli military incursion. In every instance it will use wording such as "retaliate" and "self-defense". They have murdered over 900 people, and every article will say they did it to defend themselves and in retaliation of Hamas firing rockets. When they murdered 3000 Lebanese 2 years ago, it was self defense from Hezballah and in retaliation for Hezballah kidmapping a soldier.

2. The church, which holds a huge influence over the way people think, teaches that Jews are chosen and the land is theirs per God's promise with Abraham. Galatians 3 debunks this myth so entirely that even Rock wont touch it.

Galatians 3 is not the only chapter in the Bible, dude -- but lets look at a key verse:

"Through the work of Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, and we Christians receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith."
(Galatians 3:14-)

Obviously this promise to the Gentiles does not nullify God's promises to the Jews. Rather it includes the Gentiles in those promises if they are adopted into the family of God. It is not a replacement of promises, but an inclusion into them. That was Paul's entire point in Romans 11, as well (which you ignore completely). The promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) are not nullified or replaced by the inclusion of the Gentiles, but rather fully fulfilled. Abraham's "seed" becoming a blessing to all nations was fulfilled in Christ (and the subsequent adoption of Gentiles into the Kingdom of God). Why you think that Galatians three contradicts Romans 11 I'll never know.

Rock

[Pouye]

arabs are semitic peoples but jews have monopolized the word. zionism places jews ahead of all races, which would make them as racist as any "ant-semite".

but the sheep in America dont want to believe this.

You need to seriously learn who the "Arabs" are. The Jews haven't monopolized any such word. In fact, the "Arabs" are so unrelated ethnically that it is silly to even call them one people.

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Arabs.htm

[Aussie3rddayfan]

1. The Israeli propaganda machine. I challenge anybody here to find an article from the AP about any Israeli military incursion. In every instance it will use wording such as "retaliate" and "self-defense". They have murdered over 900 people, and every article will say they did it to defend themselves and in retaliation of Hamas firing rockets. When they murdered 3000 Lebanese 2 years ago, it was self defense from Hezballah and in retaliation for Hezballah kidmapping a soldier.

2. The church, which holds a huge influence over the way people think, teaches that Jews are chosen and the land is theirs per God's promise with Abraham. Galatians 3 debunks this myth so entirely that even Rock wont touch it.

Murder is a very strong accustaion. By definition, it it both premeditated and done with malice afterthought. Neither of us wants innocent civilians to die, but stopping the war now will not solve the hate and it will not solve the deaths.

[rossid]

Persians. Need to discuss those people....

[Howlin' Wolf]

Galatians 3 is not the only chapter in the Bible, dude -- but lets look at a key verse:

"Through the work of Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, and we Christians receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith."
(Galatians 3:14-)

Obviously this promise to the Gentiles does not nullify God's promises to the Jews. Rather it includes the Gentiles in those promises if they are adopted into the family of God. It is not a replacement of promises, but an inclusion into them. That was Paul's entire point in Romans 11, as well (which you ignore completely). The promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) are not nullified or replaced by the inclusion of the Gentiles, but rather fully fulfilled. Abraham's "seed" becoming a blessing to all nations was fulfilled in Christ (and the subsequent adoption of Gentiles into the Kingdom of God). Why you think that Galatians three contradicts Romans 11 I'll never know.

Rock

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Here is your F'n thread stopper. Why you ignore this passage and still view Israel as God's chosen is beyond me.
and.....
I never said it contradicts Romans 11. I said it contradicts your warped view and application of Romans 11.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Murder is a very strong accustaion. By definition, it it both premeditated and done with malice afterthought. Neither of us wants innocent civilians to die, but stopping the war now will not solve the hate and it will not solve the deaths.


death toll is over 1,000 in the "War to the bitter end".

most are civillians.

[Howlin' Wolf]

You need to seriously learn who the "Arabs" are. The Jews haven't monopolized any such word. In fact, the "Arabs" are so unrelated ethnically that it is silly to even call them one people.

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Arabs.htm

you are so blind to the world im amazed that you manage to live outside of this country.

unbelievable.

I can say the same things about Israelis.:rolleyes:

btw, nice jew propaganda website.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

death toll is over 1,000 in the "War to the bitter end".

most are civillians.

I think we both stand in agreement that civilian deaths are terrible. But the fact remains that civilians would still die on both sides if a ceasefire were to be called right now. I have already tried to make it clear that it is Hamas Israel is after. They are terrorists; murderers who should be brought to justice.

[mcgreen311]

Admittedly, I don't have enough knowledge/experience with this subject to have an authoritative view. With that said, to me this seems like responding to a slingshot with a machine gun. Is the level of Israel's response really justified?

[Howlin' Wolf]

I think we both stand in agreement that civilian deaths are terrible. But the fact remains that civilians would still die on both sides if a ceasefire were to be called right now. I have already tried to make it clear that it is Hamas Israel is after. They are terrorists; murderers who should be brought to justice.

They were elected representatives of the people of Gaza. Has hamas killed over 400 children? Did Hamas massacre 1,000 people?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Admittedly, I don't have enough knowledge/experience with this subject to have an authoritative view. With that said, to me this seems like responding to a slingshot with a machine gun. Is the level of Israel's response really justified?


what do you think?

1100 deaths to 13 deaths

How many UN schools did Israel blow up?

If this were any other country then Israel, the church would be livid. But since the evangelical church in america worships Israel, genocide is ok.

[mcgreen311]

That was a rhetorical question, which, on futher thought, yours probably was as well.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

what do you think?

1100 deaths to 13 deaths

How many UN schools did Israel blow up?

If this were any other country then Israel, the church would be livid. But since the evangelical church in America worships Israel, genocide is ok.

Perhaps it would be different, but the western church does not worship Israel. Perhaps you should try to back up your claim...

And as for genoicide, don't be absurd. Careless they may have been, but genocide is a far cry from what has been happening.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Perhaps it would be different, but the western church does not worship Israel. Perhaps you should try to back up your claim...

And as for genoicide, don't be absurd. Careless they may have been, but genocide is a far cry from what has been happening.


you must not get the news in Australia.

my proof of Israel worship.....these threads.

[Jesuslove]

what do you think?

1100 deaths to 13 deaths

How many UN schools did Israel blow up?

If this were any other country then Israel, the church would be livid. But since the evangelical church in america worships Israel, genocide is ok.

well put. I agree. In the eyes of America's evangelicals, Israel can do no wrong, even if innocent Palestinean Christians are the victim.

[HotWireD]

well put. I agree. In the eyes of America's evangelicals, Israel can do no wrong, even if innocent Palestinean Christians are the victim.

I agree too.



Edit: I have to add that the reverse opinion is prevalent in Europe ie. in the eyes of Europe's intelligensia, Hamas can do no wrong.
(8000+ rockets fired into Israel from Gaza).

[mcgreen311]

Right. Clearly Israel did wrong in the OT, and God used other nations to judge them. Why would it be any different now?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Right. Clearly Israel did wrong in the OT, and God used other nations to judge them. Why would it be any different now?

Because the church is Israel. Israelis living in Palestine are imposters.

[mcgreen311]

Because the church is Israel. Israelis living in Palestine are imposters.

You do know that statement was meant to be from a sort of devil's advocate perspective, right?

[Howlin' Wolf]

You do know that statement was meant to be from a sort of devil's advocate perspective, right?

Rock will be here soon to answer you in a way that would make you scratch your head, look at his verses and exclaim loudly, "Really!!! You got that from that passage! Really!?!?"

[Aussie3rddayfan]

you must not get the news in Australia.

my proof of Israel worship.....these threads.

Don't get me wrong. I am certainly aware that there is a belief in some parts of the American church that Israel can do no wrong and that they are God's chosen etc. They are certainly wrong in that belief. I just don't think it's all of the American church that believe that.

I do not believe that Israel have acted as well as they could in this conflict but neither have Hamas (as I have said, they hide weapons among their people). Of course, that does not excuse the recklessness that they have shown. Blowing up UN schools is inexcusable. In reality, I really fail to see an end to the endless cycle of hatred and murder. Whatever they do, they can't seem to stop it. And no one wants that.

[Pouye]

Don't get me wrong. I am certainly aware that there is a belief in some parts of the American church that Israel can do no wrong and that they are God's chosen etc. They are certainly wrong in that belief. I just don't think it's all of the American church that believe that.


I have never met an Evangelical Christians that says that it is okay for the Israeli Defense Force to simply go in and destroy Arab peoples. But that isn't what is happening. They are at war with their neighbors.


I do not believe that Israel have acted as well as they could in this conflict but neither have Hamas (as I have said, they hide weapons among their people). Of course, that does not excuse the recklessness that they have shown. Blowing up UN schools is inexcusable. In reality, I really fail to see an end to the endless cycle of hatred and murder. Whatever they do, they can't seem to stop it. And no one wants that.

The answer is for Hamas and the rest of the groups who hate the Jews to leave the Jews alone. It is very simple. The Jews are there to stay, so the surrounding nations need to leave them alone and quit firing rockets at them constantly. Israel has warned over and over that if their neighbors continue to fire on them they will attack them. Then when they attack they always get condemnation. Well, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If they keep firing on Israel, they have no choice but to counter-attack. If a UN school gets hit, it is probably because that is where the firing was coming from. I don't like their schools getting hit, but Israel also doesn't like where the Hamas rockets are landing, either.

What we have is genocide of the Jews. It is pure and simple. The Jews are not trying to get rid of all Arabs as a people (they allow them citizenship in their country and the Arabs who live in Israel live better than most Arabs outside of Israel!), but many Arabs definitely want rid of all Jews. Many Arab countries dispute the legitimacy of Israel as a nation/state, but not one Israeli disputes the legitimacy of the nations around them, only their tactics.

I would be pro-Israel even if I wasn't a Christian. The Jews have a right to a homeland just like I do. And they have the right to defend it, just like I do. Arabs have incredible amounts of land -- plenty for all of them to make homelands wherever they want to. Israel is 1/640th the size of the Arab countries around them.

Rock

[Aussie3rddayfan]

The answer is for Hamas and the rest of the groups who hate the Jews to leave the Jews alone. It is very simple. The Jews are there to stay, so the surrounding nations need to leave them alone and quit firing rockets at them constantly. Israel has warned over and over that if their neighbors continue to fire on them they will attack them. Then when they attack they always get condemnation. Well, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If they keep firing on Israel, they have no choice but to counter-attack. If a UN school gets hit, it is probably because that is where the firing was coming from. I don't like their schools getting hit, but Israel also doesn't like where the Hamas rockets are landing, either.

This is precisely what I have been saying both on this thread and the previous thread. Israel have been taking crap from the foreign media and other world leaders for attacking Hamas yet if put in the same situation many would do the same... or worse.

I have also made it very clear that I understand the difficult position Israel is in. Many, many innocent Israelies have been on the receiving end of enemy attacks. And of course, when Israel fights back (and quite understandably uses their big military advantage) the world cries blue murder because they are defending themselves. Hamas, as I have said repeatedly, hide they weapons of war among their people, which is exactly the point. They have no honour. If you hide such weapons to purposefully inflict civilian casualties on you own people just so you can claim civilian casualties as part of your war then something is severely wrong. That said, there have been alot of innocents killed. It is therefore a very tricky situation.

I would love nothing more than for an immediate and complete end to the endless cycle of hatred and death in the Holy Land. But it ain't gonna happen. That's why I can sympathise with Israel. If they can deal a shattering blow to Hamas now, maybe, just maybe, there will be less murder and conflict in the region in the future.

I would be pro-Israel even if I wasn't a Christian. The Jews have a right to a homeland just like I do. And they have the right to defend it, just like I do. Arabs have incredible amounts of land -- plenty for all of them to make homelands wherever they want to. Israel is 1/640th the size of the Arab countries around them.

Rock

100% in agreement. Good post.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I have never met an Evangelical Christians that says that it is okay for the Israeli Defense Force to simply go in and destroy Arab peoples. But that isn't what is happening. They are at war with their neighbors.



The answer is for Hamas and the rest of the groups who hate the Jews to leave the Jews alone. It is very simple. The Jews are there to stay, so the surrounding nations need to leave them alone and quit firing rockets at them constantly. Israel has warned over and over that if their neighbors continue to fire on them they will attack them. Then when they attack they always get condemnation. Well, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If they keep firing on Israel, they have no choice but to counter-attack. If a UN school gets hit, it is probably because that is where the firing was coming from. I don't like their schools getting hit, but Israel also doesn't like where the Hamas rockets are landing, either.

What we have is genocide of the Jews. It is pure and simple. The Jews are not trying to get rid of all Arabs as a people (they allow them citizenship in their country and the Arabs who live in Israel live better than most Arabs outside of Israel!), but many Arabs definitely want rid of all Jews. Many Arab countries dispute the legitimacy of Israel as a nation/state, but not one Israeli disputes the legitimacy of the nations around them, only their tactics.

I would be pro-Israel even if I wasn't a Christian. The Jews have a right to a homeland just like I do. And they have the right to defend it, just like I do. Arabs have incredible amounts of land -- plenty for all of them to make homelands wherever they want to. Israel is 1/640th the size of the Arab countries around them.

Rock

what a load of bull

[Aussie3rddayfan]

what a load of bull

It's hard to dispute fact, Tulip.

Israel do have far less lands than the Arab nations. If Hamas were to leave well enough alone, Israel would have no need to make war against them. Plain and simple. Israel have a right to their homeland regardless of where you or anyone else stands on the whole 'God's chosen' issue. If Hamas continue to kill innocent Israelies then they can hardly whinge when Israel responds in kind. I, and many other people, would do the same.

[Howlin' Wolf]

It's hard to dispute fact, Tulip.

Israel do have far less lands than the Arab nations. If Hamas were to leave well enough alone, Israel would have no need to make war against them. Plain and simple. Israel have a right to their homeland regardless of where you or anyone else stands on the whole 'God's chosen' issue. If Hamas continue to kill innocent Israelies then they can hardly whinge when Israel responds in kind. I, and many other people, would do the same.

Israel is the biggest bully in the middle east. People keep saying portraying Israel as this tiny little country in which all their neighbors hate them....That is crap. First, Israel has a peace treaty in tact with both Jordan and Egypt and both countries would rather keep the peace with Israel than support Palestinians. why? Because Israel has far more advanced weaponry than all of the arab league combined. America has equipped them with the power to destroy nations.

Since the ceasefire ended, 13 Israelis, most of them soldiers have died in the conflict. People keep saying Hamas is killing innocent Israelis. that just isnt true. Israel set up a blockade, stifling economic growth in Gaza. 75% of Gazans, and that % will increase, receive food from the World Food bank. Nothing, including aid, gets into Gaza. So what in the hell are the elected officials of Gaza supposed to do?

[Pouye]

Israel is the biggest bully in the middle east. People keep saying portraying Israel as this tiny little country in which all their neighbors hate them....That is crap. First, Israel has a peace treaty in tact with both Jordan and Egypt and both countries would rather keep the peace with Israel than support Palestinians. why? Because Israel has far more advanced weaponry than all of the arab league combined. America has equipped them with the power to destroy nations.

Since the ceasefire ended, 13 Israelis, most of them soldiers have died in the conflict. People keep saying Hamas is killing innocent Israelis. that just isnt true. Israel set up a blockade, stifling economic growth in Gaza. 75% of Gazans, and that % will increase, receive food from the World Food bank. Nothing, including aid, gets into Gaza. So what in the hell are the elected officials of Gaza supposed to do?

Suicide bomb them or launch rockets and then get their houses razed in return. That's at least what they've been doing, and it isn't working, now is it? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over to try and achieve different results.

Rock

[Pouye]

Israel is the biggest bully in the middle east.

Big bullies. Sure. Might as well add expansionists to your description, too.
Israel is the red country, the green is the Arab/Muslim world.

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

Suicide bomb them or launch rockets and then get their houses razed in return. That's at least what they've been doing, and it isn't working, now is it? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over to try and achieve different results.

Rock

It doesnt matter what arabs do. As long as there are people like you spouting off garbage and using out of context scripture to support a terrorist regime, they will always be portrayed as "terrorists." Rock, I thought it was awesome when democracy came to Gaza. your boy, GW Bush, was so glad to see free elections in the arab world. And Gazans elect Hamas. Democracy is only good if like minded people are elected. Since that election, Israel has sent Gaza into economic destabilization. But you dont care about the thousands of starving people, the thousands of unemployed. You dont care about people living in the worse conditions in the world. You dont care at all because Israel has a right to defend herself. Good job interpreting scripture. You should be proud of yourself.

Israel is the red country, the green is the Arab world.

Do you read scripture the way you read other people's post?
What did I say about land mass?

[Howlin' Wolf]

the green is the Arab world.

once again, you show us all that you know next to nothing about the world outside of your little mission trip to new guinea. The green is not the arab world. You have managed to lump east africans, west africans, persians, pakistanis, indonesians, and various central asian people groups as "arab".

Did your numerous contacts teach you that?

[Pouye]

once again, you show us all that you know next to nothing about the world outside of your little mission trip to new guinea. The green is not the arab world. You have managed to lump east africans, west africans, persians, pakistanis, indonesians, and various central asian people groups as "arab".

Did your numerous contacts teach you that?

Arab + Muslim world. That is what I meant. I know that they aren't all Arabs, so I edited my post. In fact, most of the ethnic people who are Muslims are not true Arabs. I meant it in the context of the Arab League of Nations.

And my "little mission trip" has lasted 13 years so far. :rolleyes:

Rock

[Shonsu]

Let's not forget that it is God that brought Israel back to their land just like He said He would. And now I see Him working on turning the whole world against them, which will lead to the Gog-Magog invasion then finally to ALL NATIONS coming against them at the battle of Armageddon.

[Pouye]

Let's not forget that it is God that brought Israel back to their land just like He said He would. And now I see Him working on turning the whole world against them, which will lead to the Gog-Magog invasion then finally to ALL NATIONS coming against them at the battle of Armageddon.

I agree with you, especially about the battle of Armageddon. I also see God's hand in the recreation of the nation of Israel in our times. He isn't doing it because the Jews are "being good" but to fulfill His plan:

"Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I [am] with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished." Jeremiah 46:28-

"This message concerning the fate of Israel came from the LORD: “This message is from the LORD, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundations of the earth, and formed the spirit within humans. I will make Jerusalem and Judah like an intoxicating drink to all the nearby nations that send their armies to besiege Jerusalem. On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone, a burden for the world. None of the nations who try to lift it will escape unscathed."
Zechariah 12:1- (emphasis mine)

The only part I don't agree with is the "Gog-Magog" invasion. That happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ:

"Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, the Devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he would be released again for a little while.
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
When the thousand years end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations from every corner of the earth, which are called Gog and Magog. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty host, as numberless as sand along the shore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.
Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Revelation 20:1-10 NLT (emphasis mine)

Rock

[Shonsu]

I agree with you, especially about the battle of Armageddon. I also see God's hand in the recreation of the nation of Israel in our times. He isn't doing it because the Jews are "being good" but to fulfill His plan:

"Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I [am] with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished." Jeremiah 46:28-

"This message concerning the fate of Israel came from the LORD: “This message is from the LORD, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundations of the earth, and formed the spirit within humans. I will make Jerusalem and Judah like an intoxicating drink to all the nearby nations that send their armies to besiege Jerusalem. On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone, a burden for the world. None of the nations who try to lift it will escape unscathed."
Zechariah 12:1- (emphasis mine)

The only part I don't agree with is the "Gog-Magog" invasion. That happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ:

"Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, the Devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he would be released again for a little while.
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.
When the thousand years end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations from every corner of the earth, which are called Gog and Magog. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty host, as numberless as sand along the shore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.
Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Revelation 20:1-10 NLT (emphasis mine)

Rock


Hi Rock!

Do you think it's possible that the Gog and Magog expression in Revelation is just a "symbol" of the peoples that reject God (again)? That is my thought at least. I think that way because the passage in Ezekiel 38 is very specific and says "Gog, of the land of Magog" where the passage in Revelation 20 says "the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog".

[Pouye]

Hi Rock!

Do you think it's possible that the Gog and Magog expression in Revelation is just a "symbol" of the peoples that reject God (again)? That is my thought at least. I think that way because the passage in Ezekiel 38 is very specific and says "Gog, of the land of Magog" where the passage in Revelation 20 says "the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog".

This could be. It could be that "Gog" is a representative of the leader of the armies of "Magog" which are basically a coalition of nations.

I read Ezekiel 38 in the context of 37. The end of 37:

"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’*”
Ezekiel 37:24-

With prophecy it could be that Ezekiel 38 is chronologically before Ezekiel 37, so I'm not necessarily dogmatic about this. I just know that the only place God and Magog are mentioned in the New Testament is in the context of the "Last Battle" which is post 1000 reign. It could be just an instant replay of the first battle (of Armageddon), and thus the symbolism.

Rock