"Sorry, I'm Calling In Gay Today" - Wednesday, December 10, 2008

[rossid]

NOTE: There is also the December 15 Newsweek cover story about "The Religious Case For Gay Marriage". http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653/output/print

But that is for another thread. Or maybe we can talk about both items in one thread.


Here is the point of the thread title:


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,464024,00.html

Calling In 'Gay' to Work Is Latest Form of Protest

Monday, December 08, 2008

SAN FRANCISCO — Some same-sex marriage supporters are urging people to "call in gay" Wednesday to show how much the country relies on gays and lesbians, but others question whether it's wise to encourage skipping work given the nation's economic distress.

Organizers of "Day Without a Gay" — scheduled to coincide with International Human Rights Day and modeled after similar work stoppages by Latino immigrants — also are encouraging people to perform volunteer work and refrain from spending money.

Sean Hetherington, a West Hollywood comedian and personal trainer, dreamed up the idea with his boyfriend, Aaron Hartzler, after reading online that a few angry gay-rights activists were calling for a daylong strike to protest California voters' passage last month of Proposition 8, which reversed this year's state Supreme Court decision allowing gay marriage.

The couple thought it would be more effective and less divisive if people were asked to perform community service instead of staying home with their wallets shut. Dozens of nonprofit agencies, from the National Women's Law Center in Washington to a Methodist church in Fresno collecting food for the homeless, have posted opportunities for volunteers on the couple's Web site.

"We are all for a boycott if that is what brings about a sense of community for people," said Hetherington, 30, who plans to spend Wednesday volunteering at an inner-city school. "You can take away from the economy and give back in other ways."

Hetherington said he's been getting 100 e-mails an hour from people looking for volunteer opportunities, and that his "Day Without a Gay" Web site has gotten 100,000 hits since mid-November.

Despite Hartzler and Hetherington's attempt to fashion a positive approach, some organizers of the street demonstrations that drew massive crowds in many cities last month have been reluctant to embrace the concept, saying that it could be at best impractical and at worst counterproductive to "call in gay."

"It's extra-challenging for people to think about taking off work as a form of protest, given that we are talking about people who may not be out (as gay) at work, and given the current economic situation and job market," said Jules Graves, 38, coordinator of the Colorado Queer Straight Alliance. "There is really not any assurance employers would appreciate it for what it is."

Graves' group nonetheless is arranging for interested participants to volunteer at the local African Community Center in Denver. The agency said it could find projects to keep 20 people busy, but so far only 10 have pledged to show up, said Graves.

Scott Craig, a fifth-grade teacher at Independence Charter School in Philadelphia, had no problem requesting and being granted the day off. So many of the school's 60 teachers were eager to show support for gay rights they had to make sure enough stayed behind to staff classrooms.

About 25 teachers plan to take Wednesday off and to have their work covered by substitutes while they discuss ways to introduce gay issues to their students and volunteer at the local branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, Craig said. A letter telling parents why so many teachers would be out went home Monday.

"We want to get the conversation going in the community that gay is not bad," Craig said. "For kids to hear that in a positive light can be life-changing."

Join The Impact, the online community that launched protests last month over the passage of gay marriage bans in California, Florida and Arizona, has urged people to withdraw $80 from their bank accounts Wednesday to demonstrate gays' spending power, and to devote the time they might otherwise spend watching TV or surfing the Internet to volunteer work.

Witeck-Combs Communications, a public relations firm in Washington that specializes in the gay and lesbian market, published a study this year that estimated that gay and lesbian consumers spend $700 billion annually.

Bob Witeck, the firm's chief executive officer, said it would be difficult to measure the success of Wednesday's strike since gay employees occupy so many fields. And rather than suspending all consumer spending for the day, gay rights supporters would have a bigger impact if they devoted their dollars to gay-friendly businesses year-round, Witeck said.

"Our community leaders who are running book stores, newspapers, flower shops, coffee houses, bars and many, many other things are hurting right now, so paying attention to their needs during this hard time is an effective form of activism," he said.

Hetherington said he has been careful to design A Day Without a Gay — he came up with the name after the film "A Day Without a Mexican" and liked it because it rhymed — so no one feels excluded or threatened.

He has specifically urged high school students not to walk out of their classes and assured college students they won't be disloyal to the cause if they go ahead and take their final exams. He also has listed opportunities — ranging from writing letters to members of Congress about federal gay rights legislation to spreading the word about Wednesday on social networking sites — for gay marriage backers who cannot miss work.

[Corrine]

I didn't take the time to read the article, but if I were gay, I certainly wouldn't encourage people to call in "gay". Wouldn't that be saying homosexuality is a sickness?

[Yoshi]

Corrine - so true.. good point!

My view on homosexuality is that a) it's a lifestyle choice, not something you're born with, and that means that, as with all actions, there are consequences!

I support the removal of discrimination against people who choose this lifestyle, in terms of access to services, medical decisions, etc.. But that does NOT extend to marriage - marriage is a religious institution, something that exists in all of the major religions - Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.. But I don't know of any of the major religions that allow for homosexuality.. Therefore, why do gay people think they can have part and not all?

Anyway..

Maybe we should have a "call in Christian" day.. :P

[Aussie3rddayfan]

If I were someone's boss and they called in sick for no reason then I'd feel inclined to have a long chat with them... or maybe a very short one.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Nobody is staying out for "no reason". And so far as I know, I doubt anyone who is taking the time out for this is claiming to be taking it off because they're "sick" either.

They're staying out of work because they're gay. To prove a point. Per the original post.

"Some same-sex marriage supporters are urging people to "call in gay" Wednesday to show how much the country relies on gays and lesbians...Organizers of "Day Without a Gay" — scheduled to coincide with International Human Rights Day and modeled after similar work stoppages by Latino immigrants..."

Although I remember an immigrant worker stoppage back when I was still in CA. I don't remember it having much of an effect on anything. So probably the most that will happen is that it will just get the gay community some additional publicity. And the fact that this was posted here proves that it's working. I'd never heard a thing about this until I read it here. :)

But then, I always tend to hear things here first, before it hits my local paper or news broadcast. You guys are quick. Better than USA Today. ;)

[Debbie]

Even though their intention is to prove a point, it does not mean that their point will be proven ;). I stress that at this time because:

Currently, I would not risk my job to prove any point, there are not many available to replace it. Let's face it, while you are on a mission, your superiors may not see eye to eye with it and feel it to be a careless decision when it comes to your job. I am sure there are many who would love to have it. At my job, unplanned PTO counts against you. It effects your pay increases and could result in termination. While companies are planning lay off's, I am sure absences of any kind are a considering factor to them.

I suppose it would be up to you where to display your value.

[rossid]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463546,00.html

This one chaps my hide but it is the Dutch and Europe is very liberal.


Dutch Gay Group Plans 'Pink Christmas' With Two Josephs, Two Marys
Monday, December 08, 2008


AMSTERDAM, Netherlands — A Dutch gay group said Monday it has planned a "Pink Christmas" festival for the first time in Amsterdam, featuring a manger stall with two Josephs and two Marys.

Other attractions in the 10-day festival include parties, an open-air market, gay-themed films, an ice skating rink and religious services on Dec. 25.

ProGay group chairman Frank van Dalen said Monday the event is intended to increase the choices for homosexual men and women during the Christmas holiday week.

"Right now, there's not much to do," he said.

The festival will also encourage people to think about homosexuality and religion, Van Dalen added.

Some Christian groups protested. The organization Christians for Truth said the idea "mocks the core concepts of Evangelism."

"By putting Joseph and Mary down as homosexuals, a cracked human fantasy is being tacked on to history from the Bible," the organization said in a statement urging the city and organizers to cancel the event.

The manger, with actors playing the parts of Joseph and Mary, goes on display Dec. 21.

Van Dalen said it was not intended to be offensive, but was meant as a "wink" at heterosexual assumptions.

"Christmas is about more than religion, it's also about love and families, not to mention shopping," he said. "Two men or two women can form a family too these days, even one with a child."

Gay marriage was legalized in the Netherlands in 2001, and adoption rules are the same here for gay or straight couples.

Van Dalen said the Pink Christmas initiative was also intended to help promote Amsterdam as a gay capital after a decline in its reputation in recent years.

A study last month found that homophobia is an ingrained problem in the city despite the Dutch reputation for tolerance, and physical attacks on gay men are a weekly affair.

[VerbumReale]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463546,00.html

ProGay group chairman Frank van Dalen said Monday the event is intended to increase the choices for homosexual men and women during the Christmas holiday week.

"Right now, there's not much to do," he said.





The idea that by making some of the main players in the Christmas story gay they are making Christmas more applicable to the homosexual community shows the sheer self-absorption going on.

One of the assigned lectionary scripture passages that I am going to preach on this Sunday is John 1: 19-28, icluded in which is when John the baptist is questioned by the Jews, priests and Levites as to whether or not he is the Prophet, the Messiah or Elijah. He says no to all three. And then they ask him who he is and he responds "'I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,'" as the prophet Isaiah said. John sees himself as being defined by the coming of Christ.

This homosexual community in the Netherlands seem to be saying that it should be the other way around, that the event of the coming of Christ should be defined by them.

[calalily]

It seems things in the media keep getting more & more offensive to me. Particularly this Dutch thing. It just goes in line with how it is written the times will be, as things get worse & worse closer to Jesus return there will be more people calling good evil & evil things good. I thank God that my seed was planted long ago especially in times like this & we need to pray for those who are confused & haven't had that. Without it, the world is so upside down.

[Jesuslove]

It seems things in the media keep getting more & more offensive to me. Particularly this Dutch thing. It just goes in line with how it is written the times will be, as things get worse & worse closer to Jesus return there will be more people calling good evil & evil things good. I thank God that my seed was planted long ago especially in times like this & we need to pray for those who are confused & haven't had that. Without it, the world is so upside down.

Not for nothing... but Jesus did have two Dads.. God the father and Joseph. Could you imagine if Mary reared Jesus as a single parent back in the day? She would have never been accepted by society, and surely Jesus would have never been viewed as God given the out of wedlock birth.

[The Unknown Gomer]

Even though their intention is to prove a point, it does not mean that their point will be proven ;). I stress that at this time because:

Currently, I would not risk my job to prove any point, there are not many available to replace it. Let's face it, while you are on a mission, your superiors may not see eye to eye with it and feel it to be a careless decision when it comes to your job. I am sure there are many who would love to have it. At my job, unplanned PTO counts against you. It effects your pay increases and could result in termination. While companies are planning lay off's, I am sure absences of any kind are a considering factor to them.

I suppose it would be up to you where to display your value.

I'm actually with you on this one, it IS pretty risky to do something like this, given the state of the economy. I wouldn't do it. (Not that I get paid sick time anyway). But then, for someone who has to deal with the sort of discrimination that the gay community faces on a regular basis, it probably IS worth it to risk their jobs just to make a statement, the issue is probably THAT important to them. Kudos to them for sticking up for what they think is a just cause.

...'Make straight the way of the Lord,'I'm thinking I'm probably the only one who actually finds the choice of that quote, in this thread, funny. :eek: :P

[Jesuslove]

Even though their intention is to prove a point, it does not mean that their point will be proven ;). I stress that at this time because:

Currently, I would not risk my job to prove any point, there are not many available to replace it. Let's face it, while you are on a mission, your superiors may not see eye to eye with it and feel it to be a careless decision when it comes to your job. I am sure there are many who would love to have it. At my job, unplanned PTO counts against you. It effects your pay increases and could result in termination. While companies are planning lay off's, I am sure absences of any kind are a considering factor to them.

I suppose it would be up to you where to display your value.

There are other ways one could make a point. For example, I refuse to buy anything made in Utah, because I believe Mormonism is a demonic cult. I passed through Utah once, but did not stop and purchase anything.

[VerbumReale]

I'm thinking I'm probably the only one who actually finds the choice of that quote, in this thread, funny. :eek: :P


I thought about making a joke or snide remark about it when I was writing the post, but thought better to leave it alone.

[The Unknown Gomer]

I thought about making a joke or snide remark about it when I was writing the post, but thought better to leave it alone.

I didn't. ;) Alas, I've never been one to let a play on words, intended or not, go by if it happens to strike my fancy. And that one just struck me as funny.

No offense intended to anyone. :)

[danbos]

Hmm...from a purely logical standpoint, that's one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in quite some time. Have they taken a look at the unemployment rates lately to see how many people would love to have their job?

[Jesuslove]

Hmm...from a purely logical standpoint, that's one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in quite some time. Have they taken a look at the unemployment rates lately to see how many people would love to have their job?

I think work stoppages such as this don't do much good. I think their church pickets were much better. I think every church that preaches intolerance or bigotry of any type should have picketers out every Sunday.

[phil_ur_friend]

... but Jesus did have two Dads.. God the father and Joseph.

Dutch Gay Group Plans 'Pink Christmas' With Two Josephs, Two Marys

Please tell me this is not the comparison you are making.

Phil, your friend

[Trillamum]

I think work stoppages such as this don't do much good. I think their church pickets were much better. I think every church that preaches intolerance or bigotry of any type should have picketers out every Sunday.

I'll go picket with you! I find it despicable that any church should preach something that is not love. Not that I agree with all of the tactics used by some groups recently (the group "Bash Back" for example who if I remember correctly vandalized several churches) but I would love to see Christians standing up and acknowledging that hate, in any form, is wrong.

[Martyred]

this article proves something my dad said.

Homosexuals aren't worried about marriage- what they're really looking for is acceptance. They know what we think about their chosen lifestyle, and (I think) deep down, they know it's wrong.
so they're looking for people to accept them, to tell them what they're doing is okay.

We cannot let them think that!

[Jesuslove]

Dutch Gay Group Plans 'Pink Christmas' With Two Josephs, Two Marys

Please tell me this is not the comparison you are making.

Phil, your friend

I'm not some poster child for anything. There are things gay people do I am ashamed of and there are things straight people do I am ashamed of. All I'm sayin' is Jesus had two Fathers according to the Bible. That's a fact.

[danbos]

All I'm sayin' is Jesus had two Fathers according to the Bible. That's a fact.

1) Absolutely and completely false! Joseph was NOT Jesus' father. You could make an argument that he was his adopted dad, but he did not father Jesus.

2) This has nothing to do with the discussion.

[Jesuslove]

this article proves something my dad said.

Homosexuals aren't worried about marriage- what they're really looking for is acceptance. They know what we think about their chosen lifestyle, and (I think) deep down, they know it's wrong.
so they're looking for people to accept them, to tell them what they're doing is okay.

We cannot let them think that!

I think most homosexuals wouldn't care in the least if you liked them or not, but to deny a taxpaying citizen equal rights under the law is a different story.

[Jesuslove]

1) Absolutely and completely false! Joseph was NOT Jesus' father. You could make an argument that he was his adopted dad, but he did not father Jesus.

2) This has nothing to do with the discussion.

i didn't say he impregnated Mary, but he was Jesus' father. A father through adoption is no less a father.

[danbos]

i didn't say he impregnated Mary, but he was Jesus' father. A father through adoption is no less a father.

Okay, fine, call it what you want, but it still has nothing to do with this discussion...

[Martyred]

I think most homosexuals wouldn't care in the least if you liked them or not, but to deny a taxpaying citizen equal rights under the law is a different story.

I dunno.
I mean- I wouldn't think alot of them would care about marriage, considering the divorce rate for homosexuals(In places that they can get married) is more than double that of heterosexual couples.

I mean, if they turn over Proposition 8 and Amendment two, they're really only helping out divorce lawyers who can make a whole lot more money. :D

[phil_ur_friend]

Dutch Gay Group Plans 'Pink Christmas' With Two Josephs, Two Marys

Please tell me this is not the comparison you are making.

Phil, your friend

My point was missed completely, apparently...

I was referring to the inferred parallel between (2 gay men),
and (God & Joseph).:eek:

An apalling thought.:(

[VerbumReale]

I think most homosexuals wouldn't care in the least if you liked them or not, but to deny a taxpaying citizen equal rights under the law is a different story.

I don't think he was talking about gay people wanting opponents of gay-marriage to like them. He was saying that they want their behavior accepted to the point of being considered viable and normative.

[Evanescence]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463546,00.html

This one chaps my hide but it is the Dutch and Europe is very liberal.


Dutch Gay Group Plans 'Pink Christmas' With Two Josephs, Two Marys
Monday, December 08, 2008


AMSTERDAM, Netherlands — A Dutch gay group said Monday it has planned a "Pink Christmas" festival for the first time in Amsterdam, featuring a manger stall with two Josephs and two Marys.

Other attractions in the 10-day festival include parties, an open-air market, gay-themed films, an ice skating rink and religious services on Dec. 25.

ProGay group chairman Frank van Dalen said Monday the event is intended to increase the choices for homosexual men and women during the Christmas holiday week.

"Right now, there's not much to do," he said.

The festival will also encourage people to think about homosexuality and religion, Van Dalen added.

Some Christian groups protested. The organization Christians for Truth said the idea "mocks the core concepts of Evangelism."

"By putting Joseph and Mary down as homosexuals, a cracked human fantasy is being tacked on to history from the Bible," the organization said in a statement urging the city and organizers to cancel the event.

The manger, with actors playing the parts of Joseph and Mary, goes on display Dec. 21.

Van Dalen said it was not intended to be offensive, but was meant as a "wink" at heterosexual assumptions.

"Christmas is about more than religion, it's also about love and families, not to mention shopping," he said. "Two men or two women can form a family too these days, even one with a child."

Gay marriage was legalized in the Netherlands in 2001, and adoption rules are the same here for gay or straight couples.

Van Dalen said the Pink Christmas initiative was also intended to help promote Amsterdam as a gay capital after a decline in its reputation in recent years.

A study last month found that homophobia is an ingrained problem in the city despite the Dutch reputation for tolerance, and physical attacks on gay men are a weekly affair.


Selishness to the highest degree !!!!!!!

[Jesuslove]

I dunno.
I mean- I wouldn't think alot of them would care about marriage, considering the divorce rate for homosexuals(In places that they can get married) is more than double that of heterosexual couples.

I mean, if they turn over Proposition 8 and Amendment two, they're really only helping out divorce lawyers who can make a whole lot more money. :D

Could you provide some stats? I find the opposite to be true. The divorce rate among heterosexuals in Massachusetts is almost 20x greater than the divorce rate among homosexuals.

[The Unknown Gomer]

this article proves something my dad said.

Homosexuals aren't worried about marriage- what they're really looking for is acceptance. They know what we think about their chosen lifestyle, and (I think) deep down, they know it's wrong.
so they're looking for people to accept them, to tell them what they're doing is okay.

We cannot let them think that!

Who says this is what they think? This is apparently what your dad (and you) thinks they think. (I think I just used the word "think" too many times in one paragraph! ;) )

And I'm sure that in some cases, the two of you are correct. But we probably don't want to lump the whole gay community into one little box like that. Some probably do have some serious doubts about their lifestyle, right from the get go. Some probably did at the start, but adjusted to it, but after all this fuss and bother about it, probably have doubts again. And I'm sure there's a fairly high percentage that live completely outside that little box, that thinks that they are what they are, that it's not wrong, and don't give two hoots about what anyone else thinks.

Although I do think that your opinion is correct in one aspect. I DO think it's about acceptance. Because until they get that, everything else that they're looking for, ie marriage, civil unions, equal gay rights, whatever, will never come to pass. And that's ultimately what they're looking for.

IMHO.

[Jesuslove]

Although I do think that your opinion is correct in one aspect. I DO think it's about acceptance. Because until they get that, everything else that they're looking for, ie marriage, civil unions, equal gay rights, whatever, will never come to pass. And that's ultimately what they're looking for.

IMHO.

I think it's human nature to be accepted or to be viewed as excepted. Nearly every human seeks acceptance of some type. However, I think it is wrong to lump one group of people together and assume they think the same way. It would be like suggesting all heterosexuals support abortion because it's only heterosexuals have abortions. It just doesn't add up.

[Jesuslove]

Selishness to the highest degree !!!!!!!

I think it was inappropriate too. But one can't judge a whole community based on the actions of a few.

[VerbumReale]

Could you provide some stats? I find the opposite to be true. The divorce rate among heterosexuals in Massachusetts is almost 20x greater than the divorce rate among homosexuals.

The statistics in Massachusets have actually proven to be extremely unreliable because initially they were not differentiating between straight and gay divorces. When the initial applications for gay-divorces came in, it was such a foreign concept to them that they didn't really know what to do, so all divorces were lumped into one, thus giving the appearance of increased heterosexual divorce. One of the first gay couples to get married in Massachusets applied for divorce only five days after the marriage. Reasons for the divorce were cited as that the relationship had irretrivably broken down and that their interests had grown in different directions. The settlement focused largely on the custody of their three cats.

On the other hand in Sweden, where they have had gay-marriage a lot longer than Massachusets or anywhere else in the US, the opposite is actually bearing out. Recent studies have shown that marriages there between two men are 50% more likely to end in divorce than heterosexual marriages while marriages between two women were even more likely to end in divorce.

The reality is, it's probably hard to find reliable statistics on this anywhere because it is a new concept. Many counties don't differentiate straight and gay divorce. When there is no dfferentiation the assumption is that it is heterosexual, hence the homosexual community's claim of lower divorce rates. But a look at countries that have had gay-marriage for much longer than the US shows otherwise.

[Jesuslove]

Recent data from a few years ago..... the best, up to date data I could find....

Over two years have passed now since same sex marriage was legalized in Massachusetts, and data from all of 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005 are now available. Emergent trends in Massachusetts amount to a stark indictment of those dire claims about sex marriage cited earlier in this article.

Divorce rates are commonly used as a key measure of marital and family health. US states, including Massachusetts, submit monthly summaries of vital statistics on births, deaths, marriages, and divorces to the US Center For Disease Control’s National Center For Health Statistics ( NCHS ). The NCHS then compiles publicly available monthly and yearly reports of this data. The following statistics are based on that NCHS material.

Divorce rates in the US have been declining steadily since the the early 1980’s. Massachusetts has shared in the trend and traditionally has had a divorce rate considerably lower than the national average. In fact. for several years now the Commonwealth has had the lowest divorce rate of any state in the union.

In 2004 the Massachusetts divorce rate, at 2.2 per 1,000 residents per year, was considerably lower than the US national average rate for that year, 3.8 per 1,000. Indeed, it was lower than the national average rate for 1950 (2.6 per 1,000) and even approached the national rate of 1940 (2 per 1,000).

In 2003, total divorces in Massachusetts declined 2.1% relative to 2002.
But in the first two years of legal same sex marriage in the Bay State, Massachusetts showed a more rapid decline and will very likely hold on to its title as the US state with the lowest divorce rate in the nation. The field is hotly contested — divorce rates have fallen dramatically in the last few decades.

The institution of marriage in Massachusetts, as measured by the rate of divorce, has not been healthier in at least half a century regardless of dire predictions of Christian Right leaders and Catholic Bishops. But the states that have taken aggressive action against same sex marriage, have not done nearly as well during the two year period of legal same sex marriage in Massachusetts.

The preliminary data from 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005 — from the 17 US states which have provided data on divorce for 2004 and 2005 and whose voters also passed state constitutional amendents prohibiting same sex marriage — presents a striking picture : the group of US states arguably most hostile to divorce, those which have passed both state laws and also state constitutional amendments prohibiting same sex marriage, lag dramatically in terms of divorce rate improvement when compared to same sex marriage friendly states.

Among those US states that have no laws on the books specifically prohibiting same sex marriage or civil unions — WY, NM, NY, MA, RI, CT, NJ, MD, VT — the average divorce rate drop ( unadjusted for population changes ) was -8.74%. No states in this group had divorce rate increases in 2004 and 2005.

Among those US states that are most opposed to same sex marriage which have also provided divorce data for the time period — ( alaska ? ) AR, KS, KY, MI, MS, MO, NE, NV, ND, OH, OK, OR, UT, TX — the average divorce rate ( unadjusted for population changes ) for 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005 increased 1.75%. This group contains 4 of the 5 states with the highest divorce rate increases in the US during 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005.

( states in the second group may have on average a higher population growth rate but that will not change the almost 10.5% gap between the two groups more than a few percentage points )

Meanwhile, the one state in the United States Of America that has legal same sex marriage, Massachusetts, will be among the top ten states - or better - with the largest drop in divorce rates in America during 2004 and 2005.

[VerbumReale]

Recent data from a few years ago..... the best, up to date data I could find....

Over two years have passed now since same sex marriage was legalized in Massachusetts, and data from all of 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005 are now available. Emergent trends in Massachusetts amount to a stark indictment of those dire claims about sex marriage cited earlier in this article.

Divorce rates are commonly used as a key measure of marital and family health. US states, including Massachusetts, submit monthly summaries of vital statistics on births, deaths, marriages, and divorces to the US Center For Disease Control’s National Center For Health Statistics ( NCHS ). The NCHS then compiles publicly available monthly and yearly reports of this data. The following statistics are based on that NCHS material.

Divorce rates in the US have been declining steadily since the the early 1980’s. Massachusetts has shared in the trend and traditionally has had a divorce rate considerably lower than the national average. In fact. for several years now the Commonwealth has had the lowest divorce rate of any state in the union.

In 2004 the Massachusetts divorce rate, at 2.2 per 1,000 residents per year, was considerably lower than the US national average rate for that year, 3.8 per 1,000. Indeed, it was lower than the national average rate for 1950 (2.6 per 1,000) and even approached the national rate of 1940 (2 per 1,000).

In 2003, total divorces in Massachusetts declined 2.1% relative to 2002.
But in the first two years of legal same sex marriage in the Bay State, Massachusetts showed a more rapid decline and will very likely hold on to its title as the US state with the lowest divorce rate in the nation. The field is hotly contested — divorce rates have fallen dramatically in the last few decades.

The institution of marriage in Massachusetts, as measured by the rate of divorce, has not been healthier in at least half a century regardless of dire predictions of Christian Right leaders and Catholic Bishops. But the states that have taken aggressive action against same sex marriage, have not done nearly as well during the two year period of legal same sex marriage in Massachusetts.

The preliminary data from 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005 — from the 17 US states which have provided data on divorce for 2004 and 2005 and whose voters also passed state constitutional amendents prohibiting same sex marriage — presents a striking picture : the group of US states arguably most hostile to divorce, those which have passed both state laws and also state constitutional amendments prohibiting same sex marriage, lag dramatically in terms of divorce rate improvement when compared to same sex marriage friendly states.

Among those US states that have no laws on the books specifically prohibiting same sex marriage or civil unions — WY, NM, NY, MA, RI, CT, NJ, MD, VT — the average divorce rate drop ( unadjusted for population changes ) was -8.74%. No states in this group had divorce rate increases in 2004 and 2005.

Among those US states that are most opposed to same sex marriage which have also provided divorce data for the time period — ( alaska ? ) AR, KS, KY, MI, MS, MO, NE, NV, ND, OH, OK, OR, UT, TX — the average divorce rate ( unadjusted for population changes ) for 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005 increased 1.75%. This group contains 4 of the 5 states with the highest divorce rate increases in the US during 2004 and the first 11 months of 2005.

( states in the second group may have on average a higher population growth rate but that will not change the almost 10.5% gap between the two groups more than a few percentage points )

Meanwhile, the one state in the United States Of America that has legal same sex marriage, Massachusetts, will be among the top ten states - or better - with the largest drop in divorce rates in America during 2004 and 2005.

Again, countries that have had gay marriage for longer are going to have better and more accrate picture of the effects of gay marriage on divorce and if the Netherlands are any indication then conservatives are right. And divorce rates are some of the hardest statistics to keep track of. Some counties don't report divorces beyond the local level. This report of yours is obviously extremely biased and one could easily find conservative opposition to gay marriage with just as much statistical evidence. Plus this reduces opposition to gay-marriage to the argument that it is going to ruin traditional marriage. But there is much more to it than that. To me it's not about ruining traditional marriage, it's about re-defining marriage.

[Pouye]

Again, countries that have had gay marriage for longer are going to have better and more accrate picture of the effects of gay marriage on divorce and if the Netherlands are any indication then conservatives are right. And divorce rates are some of the hardest statistics to keep track of. Some counties don't report divorces beyond the local level. This report of yours is obviously extremely biased and one could easily find conservative opposition to gay marriage with just as much statistical evidence. Plus this reduces opposition to gay-marriage to the argument that it is going to ruin traditional marriage. But there is much more to it than that. To me it's not about ruining traditional marriage, it's about re-defining marriage.

http://www.acpeds.org/index.cgi?cat=24&BISKIT=345905054&CONTEXT=cat

Rock

[Jesuslove]

Again, countries that have had gay marriage for longer are going to have better and more accrate picture of the effects of gay marriage on divorce and if the Netherlands are any indication then conservatives are right. And divorce rates are some of the hardest statistics to keep track of. Some counties don't report divorces beyond the local level. This report of yours is obviously extremely biased and one could easily find conservative opposition to gay marriage with just as much statistical evidence. Plus this reduces opposition to gay-marriage to the argument that it is going to ruin traditional marriage. But there is much more to it than that. To me it's not about ruining traditional marriage, it's about re-defining marriage.

Do you deny that in America, there seems to be a correlation between the states in the south who banned gay marriage... they seem to have higher overall divorce rates? I'm not sure the reason why. Could it be relative to education levels, fundamental beliefs or something else?

[Valpo]

Let's talk about divorce! The problem the church has always had is that it rails against the gay community and then is oh so very soft on divorce. These same people who rail against abortion and homosexuality also better be railing against pre-marital sex, divorce, adultery, lying, cheating, scandals, etc etc.....but they're not. Listen, homosexuality is a sin, hands down. Abortion is a sin and a grievous offense against humanity in general. But the church cannot and should not be focusing on those two as the end all be all. In regards to homosexuality and the gay community, invite them in, they ought to feel welcome at church. This doesn't mean they should be given communion, because they are in sin (but the eucharist is a whole 'nother matter, one you non-liturgical types have been abusing for a long time now), but if our message is, or gets out there, that church is for the healthy and not the sick then Christianity will continue to be hampered with a bad image, and NOT because they find the Gospel offensive but because they find Christians attitudes offensive.

There is no reason to affirm the gay lifestyle, but we gotta be out there loving them. Jesus brings change, not us. There is no reason for the church to put out an idea that you have to have it altogether to come in, that's the point, we're sinful humans, we don't have it all together. Real metanoia (Greek change and/or repentance) comes through the Law and the Gospel being sensibly preached in a balance.

[Jesuslove]

Let's talk about divorce! The problem the church has always had is that it rails against the gay community and then is oh so very soft on divorce. These same people who rail against abortion and homosexuality also better be railing against pre-marital sex, divorce, adultery, lying, cheating, scandals, etc etc.....but they're not. .... In regards to homosexuality and the gay community, invite them in, they ought to feel welcome at church.

I agree with most of what you stated. Jesus calls upon us to love everyone. We are all sinners, yet we are all welcome at the table of the Lord.

[VerbumReale]

http://www.acpeds.org/index.cgi?cat=24&BISKIT=345905054&CONTEXT=cat

Rock


Thank you. Good link.

[VerbumReale]

Do you deny that in America, there seems to be a correlation between the states in the south who banned gay marriage... they seem to have higher overall divorce rates? I'm not sure the reason why. Could it be relative to education levels, fundamental beliefs or something else?


Do I think that there is a correlation between the fact that they oppose gay-marriage and have a higher divorce rate? No. I think that would have been the case regardless of what their position on gay marriage was. Plus, like I said divorce rates are hard to track and more often than not are unreliable.

[Jesuslove]

Do I think that there is a correlation between the fact that they oppose gay-marriage and have a higher divorce rate? No. I think that would have been the case regardless of what their position on gay marriage was. Plus, like I said divorce rates are hard to track and more often than not are unreliable.

If that were the case, then why were you quoting foreign divorce rates earlier in the thread?

[VerbumReale]

Let's talk about divorce! The problem the church has always had is that it rails against the gay community and then is oh so very soft on divorce. These same people who rail against abortion and homosexuality also better be railing against pre-marital sex, divorce, adultery, lying, cheating, scandals, etc etc.....but they're not. Listen, homosexuality is a sin, hands down. Abortion is a sin and a grievous offense against humanity in general. But the church cannot and should not be focusing on those two as the end all be all. In regards to homosexuality and the gay community, invite them in, they ought to feel welcome at church. This doesn't mean they should be given communion, because they are in sin (but the eucharist is a whole 'nother matter, one you non-liturgical types have been abusing for a long time now), but if our message is, or gets out there, that church is for the healthy and not the sick then Christianity will continue to be hampered with a bad image, and NOT because they find the Gospel offensive but because they find Christians attitudes offensive.

There is no reason to affirm the gay lifestyle, but we gotta be out there loving them. Jesus brings change, not us. There is no reason for the church to put out an idea that you have to have it altogether to come in, that's the point, we're sinful humans, we don't have it all together. Real metanoia (Greek change and/or repentance) comes through the Law and the Gospel being sensibly preached in a balance.


First of all, good to have you back. Second of all I agree with everything you say here. I did not mean in any way to suggest that we should not talk about divorce. In fact, when speaking with parishioners about my views on homosexuality I will often use that as a springboard to talk about divorce. I will use Jesus citing Genesis in Matthew and Mark to support my view and inevitably one person will point out that Jesus was responding to a question about divorce. And I will respond by saying "Well yes He was but we can see that in doing that He is affirming the standard set in Genesis. And the fact that He was addressing divorce just reminds us how we have become too soft on divorce, so let's talk about that." I am also very thorough in my pre-marital counseling, to the point of telling a couple that if I don't think they are ready then we may have to postpone the wedding. And if one or both of the to-be spouses are divorced I will tell them there has to be some sort of acknowledgment of that through confession and absolution before the wedding.

I also agree that while we certainly don't need to affirm sinful behavior we should do the best we can to create a loving and accepting environment . Being in rural ND for the last three years this honestly has not been a challenge I have had to contend with on a day-to-day basis . I do have a confirmand who's mother is in a lesbian relationship so if and when the topic of sexuality has come up in confirmation, an awareness of that situation has created a somewhat challenging tightrope for me to be faithful to what scripture clearly says and sensitive to the reality of a confirmand with a lesbian mother. However I do admit that I can sometime come across on these boards as abrasive when expressing my views on homosexuality.

On communion, I agree that unrepentant homosexuals should not be allowed to commune. But we should also be aware that is a point where faithfulness and compassion gets confused. In other words what might be intended as lovingly preventing someone from bringing judgment upon themselves could very well be interpreted as discrimination, no matter how sensitively it is explained to them. That of course does not mean we should be any less diligent, just an awareness of that is important.

[VerbumReale]

If that were the case, then why were you quoting foreign divorce rates earlier in the thread?

I explained why. It was because Scandanavians have had gay-marriage longer than us and so there statistics are going to be more reliable. But then, yes I conceded that even with that statistics on divorce rates are still unreliable. But logic would only dictate that even with unreliable methods statistics from a country that has had gay marriage for 20 years is going to more reflective of reality than a very small state that has only had it for a few years.
But yes even with that, divorce rate statistics are unreliable, so do with the statistics from Scandinavia what you will.

[Martyred]

First of all, good to have you back. Second of all I agree with everything you say here. I did not mean in any way to suggest that we should not talk about divorce. In fact, when speaking with parishioners about my views on homosexuality I will often use that as a springboard to talk about divorce. I will use Jesus citing Genesis in Matthew and Mark to support my view and inevitably one person will point out that Jesus was responding to a question about divorce. And I will respond by saying "Well yes He was but we can see that in doing that He is affirming the standard set in Genesis. And the fact that He was addressing divorce just reminds us how we have become too soft on divorce, so let's talk about that." I am also very thorough in my pre-marital counseling, to the point of telling a couple that if I don't think they are ready then we may have to postpone the wedding. And if one or both of the to-be spouses are divorced I will tell them there has to be some sort of acknowledgment of that through confession and absolution before the wedding.

I also agree that while we certainly don't need to affirm sinful behavior we should do the best we can to create a loving and accepting environment . Being in rural ND for the last three years this honestly has not been a challenge I have had to contend with on a day-to-day basis . I do have a confirmand who's mother is in a lesbian relationship so if and when the topic of sexuality has come up in confirmation, an awareness of that situation has created a somewhat challenging tightrope for me to be faithful to what scripture clearly says and sensitive to the reality of a confirmand with a lesbian mother. However I do admit that I can sometime come across on these boards as abrasive when expressing my views on homosexuality.

On communion, I agree that unrepentant homosexuals should not be allowed to commune. But we should also be aware that is a point where faithfulness and compassion gets confused. In other words what might be intended as lovingly preventing someone from bringing judgment upon themselves could very well be interpreted as discrimination, no matter how sensitively it is explained to them. That of course does not mean we should be any less diligent, just an awareness of that is important.

Agreed with the divorce idea.


since we're in agreement that homosexuality is just as bad as divorce and adultery and pre-marital sex, etc, I'll say this:

if we just follow the first two commandments, we probably wont have an issue with the other 8.

think about it this way- When you lust over a woman (or man), who are you making your god, and who are you making your idol?

when you when you covet your something your neighbor has, what are you doing? you're making that object an idol.
When you dishonor the sabbath by working or whatever, what are you doing? you're making that item, that activity your god.

and so on and so forth.


I agree that we have to be loving when talking to homosexuals. see, i live out in redneck country, and the opposite view is held, which turns alot of the gay/lesbian/bisexual communnity from Christ because alot of the people making fun of them are claiming Christ.

[Valpo]

First of all, good to have you back. Second of all I agree with everything you say here. I did not mean in any way to suggest that we should not talk about divorce. In fact, when speaking with parishioners about my views on homosexuality I will often use that as a springboard to talk about divorce. I will use Jesus citing Genesis in Matthew and Mark to support my view and inevitably one person will point out that Jesus was responding to a question about divorce. And I will respond by saying "Well yes He was but we can see that in doing that He is affirming the standard set in Genesis. And the fact that He was addressing divorce just reminds us how we have become too soft on divorce, so let's talk about that." I am also very thorough in my pre-marital counseling, to the point of telling a couple that if I don't think they are ready then we may have to postpone the wedding. And if one or both of the to-be spouses are divorced I will tell them there has to be some sort of acknowledgment of that through confession and absolution before the wedding.

I also agree that while we certainly don't need to affirm sinful behavior we should do the best we can to create a loving and accepting environment . Being in rural ND for the last three years this honestly has not been a challenge I have had to contend with on a day-to-day basis . I do have a confirmand who's mother is in a lesbian relationship so if and when the topic of sexuality has come up in confirmation, an awareness of that situation has created a somewhat challenging tightrope for me to be faithful to what scripture clearly says and sensitive to the reality of a confirmand with a lesbian mother. However I do admit that I can sometime come across on these boards as abrasive when expressing my views on homosexuality.

On communion, I agree that unrepentant homosexuals should not be allowed to commune. But we should also be aware that is a point where faithfulness and compassion gets confused. In other words what might be intended as lovingly preventing someone from bringing judgment upon themselves could very well be interpreted as discrimination, no matter how sensitively it is explained to them. That of course does not mean we should be any less diligent, just an awareness of that is important.

Thanks Rev.

Good post, 100% with you, also was not signaling you out at all