disturbing group

[R. Smith]

I'm a big fan of FaceBook, I'm on it pretty much everyday. There's a group of 'so called Christians' who claim to toke the Holy Spirit. Big name Christian leaders from here in Western Canada, have come hard (against) this group. And other Christian leaders from the States. But yet, this group continues to keep on thier little way.

My thoughts on this group, it mocks everything I stand for. In my Church, we have talked about this group, and no one really says its of God. I do realize this is a hot topic, but what's yout take on this???

-R-

[Howlin' Wolf]

whats the group and what do they do?

[R. Smith]

We talked about this group in my Church one night. This group claims to get drunk in the Spirit, but they called it getting 'HIGH' in the Spirit. Toking the Holy Spirit. I've been sent a few of thier YouTube video's, and it seems all fake to me.

As in, seems like there Holy Spirit experience seems all to made up. Anyone can fake being drunk in the Spirit.

[BeGlorifiedInMe]

You still need to give us a name for this group. We don't know what group you are talking about, and facebook is a pretty big place to go digging for info.

[Howlin' Wolf]

We talked about this group in my Church one night. This group claims to get drunk in the Spirit, but they called it getting 'HIGH' in the Spirit. Toking the Holy Spirit. I've been sent a few of thier YouTube video's, and it seems all fake to me.

As in, seems like there Holy Spirit experience seems all to made up. Anyone can fake being drunk in the Spirit.

Isnt that most of the pentocostal churches in the west?

[phil_ur_friend]

L-ucy inthe
S-ky with
D-iamonds
:confused:
:eek: :eek: :eek:

[R. Smith]

Huffing the Bible - 'whacking the masses with Jesus juice'. Its a FaceBook page, and the profile pic alone should tip you off...this isn't of God.

[Greyshades]

I wouldn't let it bother me.

If it's not of God, it will ultimately fail.

[bvc]

....and this has what to do with FaceBook?

wow! big results for this "disturbing group" "Huffing the Bible"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Huffing+the+Bible&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

[pamcharlie]

Seems like this group is mocking the holy spirit i must say caution about them

[VerbumReale]

Here (http://www.redlettermin.com/) is their web-site. I think they are clearly simply trying to mock Christianity and shock people. I would say expressing any vocal or public opposition or bringing any attention to them whatsoever is exactly what they want.

[Greyshades]

Anybody bother to read the Statement of Faith, or Testimony?

[EmmoGomer]

Anybody bother to read the Statement of Faith, or Testimony?

Their statement of faith is actually very good. http://www.redlettermin.com/statement.html I can't say I like the term 'whacked out' though.

[WeaselInYerFoot]

This no more of a mockery than other Holy Spirit "takeovers". You're getting upset because they're replacing a term representing a legal mental influence, with one that is illegal?

What did the church do when they were "drunk" in the Holy Spirit during FDR's prohibition law?

[WeaselInYerFoot]

....and this has what to do with FaceBook?

wow! big results for this "disturbing group" "Huffing the Bible"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Huffing+the+Bible&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

One of the two Google results brought me back to this thread. Infinite loop!

[VerbumReale]

Their statement of faith is actually very good. http://www.redlettermin.com/statement.html I can't say I like the term 'whacked out' though.

Yeah I saw their statement of faith and it was completely incongruous with everything else on the site. That statement of faith could have been cut and paste directly from a Baptist or Evangelical Free church's web-site and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Solid faith statement or not, I still think these guys are simply trying to shock and offend people.

[Greyshades]

"Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."

[VerbumReale]

"Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."


You know if you are going to take a shot at me, I would prefer it if you just came out and said it.

And yes after looking at the web-site some more I will concede that I was perhaps a little presumptuous in saying that they were trying to shock people. I do think that there is some sincerity there.

But I do think he is misguded. He seems to worship this notion of electrum bliss and and being drunk on the Word and saturated in the Gospel more than the Savior that the Word and the Gospel testify to. The problem is he never really spells out what that Word or the Gospel is and he seems to say that the only way to really know the Word is to expereince this electrum bliss, so one who doesn't know better is only left to think that if they aren't experiencing it then there must be something wrong.

I will say this. I can see where his ministry might be appealing to someone who has been totally disenchanted with conventional Christianity and he does seem to have a heart for people for whom that might be the case. But again, as long as he continues to base this ministry so much on experience than he will always be leading people to believe that their status as children of God is to be based on their expereince and thus it will always come back to the self. But our salvation can be found only in the cross of Christ. The last place we should look for security in knowing that we are children of God is to ourselves.

Based on his testimony and statement of faith, I think his heart is in the right place, I just think his theology is a little askew. I think Weasel was probably right in that they are probably no more of a mockery than any other Holy Spirit takeover group.

Again, I admit I might have been mistaken in doubting his sincerity or even his expereince, but I do think he is misguded. I am moving to Minnesota in January. I may just drive up to Minneapolis one day and check out his ministry. If nothing else, I thnk he would be interesting to talk to.

[Greyshades]

You know if you are going to take a shot at me, I would prefer it if you just came out and said it.

Dude...

Before I take the time to read the rest of your post, I'll answer this.

Read back over the thread, and there's plenty of people saying they think this group is a bunch of crazies. Just because you said what you did about them "mocking" doesn't mean I intended that quote for you.

I'm not like certain others. I don't play the little sidestep, and toss out sarcasm stuff. If I meant to say it to you, I'll say it to you.

Just because I didn't agree with what's-his-name about the Shack, doesn't mean I've got something against you. I guess you didn't read the last bit of what I said back then, about having a certain respect.

[Greyshades]

I may just drive up to Minneapolis one day and check out his ministry. If nothing else, I think he would be interesting to talk to.

Now that's a story I'd like to hear.

I do agree though, after watching just a couple of the vids... that he leaves a lot to be desired in regards to what's being left out of the discussion.

[R. Smith]

to me, and do keep in mind this is my opinion. Relating being drunk in the holy Spirit, to being stoned. I don't see it. I don't see how this glorifies God...
I don't see God in this... I'm not the be-all end-all when it comes to being a Christian, and I don't claim to be. But I don't see God in this toking the holy Spirit...

[Jason]

I don't like the connotations this group is using, but being drunk and being high in a natural sense are similar. So, why then does Paul say:

KJV Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.

Notice that Paul doesn't say to be drunk in the Spirit, but he used the comparison for a reason. Thoughts?

[VerbumReale]

Dude...

Before I take the time to read the rest of your post, I'll answer this.

Read back over the thread, and there's plenty of people saying they think this group is a bunch of crazies. Just because you said what you did about them "mocking" doesn't mean I intended that quote for you.

I'm not like certain others. I don't play the little sidestep, and toss out sarcasm stuff. If I meant to say it to you, I'll say it to you.

Just because I didn't agree with what's-his-name about the Shack, doesn't mean I've got something against you. I guess you didn't read the last bit of what I said back then, about having a certain respect.

All right. My bad. Jumped the gun sorry. Actually though I wasn't thinking of our discussion about the Shack. I had forgotten about that.

[VerbumReale]

to me, and do keep in mind this is my opinion. Relating being drunk in the holy Spirit, to being stoned. I don't see it. I don't see how this glorifies God... ...

That troubled me also. And that has to do with what I was saying about how he has mistaken expereince for the Gospel. The metaphorical use of getting stoned and drunk is troubling to be sure. But for me the core issue here is that everything was based on his experience. John 15 says that the Holy Spirit testifies not of Himself but of Jesus.


I don't see God in this... I'm not the be-all end-all when it comes to being a Christian, and I don't claim to be. But I don't see God in this toking the holy Spirit...

If you watch the videos they might seem a little silly but mixed in with that you can see that the guy knows the Gospel, or at least he knows the language, so I wouldn't say that it was totally devoid of God. Plus, as has already been pointed out, the statement of faith is solid as is his testimony and history. But yes, clearly there are some other false influences at work there also. The problem is his theology and how he has chosen to articulate it, ie emphasis on experience and metaphorical use of getting stoned and drunk.

But I believe the guy might be perfectly sincere, just misguided. At the very least I think he is probably no more dangerous than certain televangelists who will remain nameless.

[Greyshades]

That's something I've always wondered about too Jason.

There is no reference in the Scriptures to being "drunk" in, or with the Spirit. Even when you "overcome", it's plain. There is no Scripture that says anyone was ever "drunk with the Spirit", or "overcome by the Spirit".

The only thing I see in Scripture that even comes close, is the reaction of the crowds to the disciples right after the outpouring on Pentecost.

[kiwisongbird]

I need to read the site a little and form an opinion, but from personal experience... I have been 'drunk' in the spirit and it actually is much, much more like being high on marijuana than being drunk on alcohol... but without the lack of being able to think straight...

[pamcharlie]

I need to read the site a little and form an opinion, but from personal experience... I have been 'drunk' in the spirit and it actually is much, much more like being high on marijuana than being drunk on alcohol... but without the lack of being able to think straight...

Yes i have been "drunk" in the holy spirit too, and the giggling was of God and it was like being high i remember my experiences how the gigling would last for days and days

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yes, because the Holy Spirit's purpose is to make us giggling buffoons.

[Pouye]

For one, you cannot be "drunk" or "high" on a person, but only a substance.

You cannot "toke" or "drink" the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a "person" (if you can call God a person) -- the Spirit of God. You can feel His presence, you can be excited about Him, you can be in awe and utterly inspired by His love, kindness and grace, etc. BUT HEAR THIS:

"For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-control." 2 Timothy 1:7

The word in the Greek [sophronismou] used for "self-control" also has within the range of meaning "sound mindedness", "good sense/judgment" and "self-discipline". It has to do with being in control of your faculties and being able to think clearly and make wise decisions. The word is also translated as moderation, temperance and sensibility (depending on the context). Some antonyms would be irrational, drunk, foolish, compulsive.

Just sayin'...

Rock

[Pouye]

Yes, because the Holy Spirit's purpose is to make us giggling buffoons.

There is no question that God can (especially when He first meets a person as his/her Savior) invoke a very emotional state. However, I agree with you that there is a big difference from being excited about God and worshiping Him (like at Pentecost) and acting like a buffoon. To be honest, I despise "Charismania", and emotionalism. Nothing wrong with being "stoked" about Jesus, but Jesus was filled completely with the Holy Spirit more than any other person, and He never acted like a buffoon!

Rock

[kiwisongbird]

Neither did I when I was in that kind of situation... people drunk on alcohol are generally buffoonesque (cool word, I just made it up!)... any time I experienced that type of closeness to the Lord it was more like enjoying being with someone so much that life is great and like when you're sharing fun with someone and laugh and giggle with just the sheer pleasure of being together...

On the other hand, I do find the overdone aspect of charismatic type things pretty stupid often... and generally prefer to worship God in the stillness of His presence rather than noisy, raucous behaviour.

But, we also need to not limit God... perhaps there are times when churches do present themselves in a manner that would offend our sensibilities, but there are many, many people out there who really want to find a 'realness' about knowing God that doesn't cope with religion in a box... I think sometimes it's about experimenting and trying to find God without ending up being dead boring...

[Howlin' Wolf]

For one, you cannot be "drunk" or "high" on a person, but only a substance.

You cannot "toke" or "drink" the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a "person" (if you can call God a person) -- the Spirit of God. You can feel His presence, you can be excited about Him, you can be in awe and utterly inspired by His love, kindness and grace, etc. BUT HEAR THIS:

"For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-control." 2 Timothy 1:7

The word in the Greek [sophronismou] used for "self-control" also has within the range of meaning "sound mindedness", "good sense/judgment" and "self-discipline". It has to do with being in control of your faculties and being able to think clearly and make wise decisions. The word is also translated as moderation, temperance and sensibility (depending on the context). Some antonyms would be irrational, drunk, foolish, compulsive.

Just sayin'...

Rock

A+++

I agree 397%!

[Howlin' Wolf]

Neither did I when I was in that kind of situation... people drunk on alcohol are generally buffoonesque (cool word, I just made it up!)... any time I experienced that type of closeness to the Lord it was more like enjoying being with someone so much that life is great and like when you're sharing fun with someone and laugh and giggle with just the sheer pleasure of being together...

On the other hand, I do find the overdone aspect of charismatic type things pretty stupid often... and generally prefer to worship God in the stillness of His presence rather than noisy, raucous behaviour.

But, we also need to not limit God... perhaps there are times when churches do present themselves in a manner that would offend our sensibilities, but there are many, many people out there who really want to find a 'realness' about knowing God that doesn't cope with religion in a box... I think sometimes it's about experimenting and trying to find God without ending up being dead boring...

However, God doesnt send a spirit of stupor. There is no such thing as Holy Laughter. The Holy Spirit does not overtake us and make us do things that we cant control. Rock summed it up perfectly. Jesus never did these things. And if it is not from God, then who is it from?

[kiwisongbird]

Jesus rejoiced, my 16 year old son found out the other day that that word means leaping and spinning around... sounds pretty wild to me... beats sitting in a pew... what about the times that Daniel was praying and seemed as a dead man? stuff like that?

Please don't read this as antagonistic... I really do want to know what you guys think - esp Mr Rock... I often learn heaps from his posts

[VerbumReale]

Jesus rejoiced, my 16 year old son found out the other day that that word means leaping and spinning around... sounds pretty wild to me... beats sitting in a pew... what about the times that Daniel was praying and seemed as a dead man? stuff like that?

Please don't read this as antagonistic... I really do want to know what you guys think - esp Mr Rock... I often learn heaps from his posts

Rejoiced sure. But one can rejoice and still be clear. Lacking confusion does not necessarily mean boring. You are right in saying that we need to avoid the pitfalls of getting caught up in religious idolatry but you say that sometimes we need to exepriment and find God on our own so we avoid something that is dead-boring. Well that might be true to a certain extent, but that is also a very slippery slope which could lead to an extremely self-centered, I am going to define God on my own terms view of worship.

The argument that we need to be open to new and different things works both ways. In other words, maybe sometimes we need to be open to traditions that might seem boring to us. There was a time in my life when liturgical worship would have seemed very boring and stale to me. But when I got over my initial discomfort and boredom with it and took the focus off myself and put it on Christ then I was able to find a beauty and richness in the liturgy, the sacraments, the traditional hymns etc that I have never seen in contemporary praise music etc.

I am not saying that liturgical, traditional worship is for everyone, but I think we need to be careful of the "I am not going to put God in a box" approach. You say that God won't stand for being put in a religious box. I wouldn't be so sure. That sort of approach has led to people like Brian McClaren rejecting not just the practice of reciting the ecumenical creeds, but the truth contained within them. In other words he has rejected the doctrine of the Trinity because he felt that it was too confining and too limiting of God. Maybe we need to be open to the idea that maybe God has placed Himself in certain "religious boxes" so that He might reveal Himself to us.

[kiwisongbird]

Hey, thanks for your encouraging answer. I agree that we shouldn't set out to find God on our own... that is dangerous...

About the liturgical stuff, I love hymns, they're my favourite worship songs - so full of adoration of God, so full of richness, so devoid of the "ME" that many songs written lately are. I've also just begun going to a retreat centre for a couple of hours once a week to be still and know that He is God. This week was wonderful and I'm looking forward to making this a habit. Seriously considering attending mass on a regular basis as well.

As I'm getting older (49) now... I love to find God in the quiet places... recently at our yearly women's retreat here in Chiang Mai, I spent one evening in the main worship session with a noisy rock type band... leaping around (actually enjoyed the dancing aspect but realised I wasn't really worshipping God...) the next day I went along to the alternative worship session which was more liturgical and peaceful and quiet, with responsive prayer and readings... I loved it! Definitely more my thing!

The box thing... I don't agree with you on that one - the reason God is misunderstood is because we box Him into what we think He is, who we think He is - and that is always because we can only read the Word through our 'glasses'... so there will always be our culture, our pain - you know,stuff like that in the way of the process of understanding God... I truly believe that we will only truly and fully understand Him when we stand before Him in glory! Won't that be totally amazing!

I think I get onto the support side of 'holy laughter' and stuff like that because so often here it seems to be slammed without much consideration of the fruit of the people involved. Also I have a habit of sticking up for people - which can be a good and a bad thing.

Thanks again for your reply and thanks for not getting grumpy with me, theologian I am not! :) :)

[VerbumReale]

The box thing... I don't agree with you on that one - the reason God is misunderstood is because we box Him into what we think He is, who we think He is - and that is always because we can only read the Word through our 'glasses'... so there will always be our culture, our pain - you know,stuff like that in the way of the process of understanding God... I truly believe that we will only truly and fully understand Him when we stand before Him in glory! Won't that be totally amazing!



I think we are closer to agreement here than you think. I totally agree with you that it is dangerous to get caught up in seeing God through our lens, and that is kind of my point.

Not to keep picking on the emergent church people, but leaders in this movement such as the afforementioned Brian McClaren and Tony Jones (who is actually who I was thinking of in my previous reference to McClaren) have been known to go so far as to say that insisting on something as fundamental as the Doctrine of the Trinity qualifies as "putting God in a box." Or also there was when the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Chruch was asked if she believed that Jesus was the only way to Heaven she answered that such thinking was "putting God in a box."

Basically what I was saying is that, while yes we should be open to new ways that God may inspire people to use their gifts, there are also certain non-negoitables that God has given us as means by which He reveals Himself to us. I believe that fundamental truths such as the Doctrine of the Trinity and Jesus being only way to salvation qualify as non-negoitable. And in my opinion, the exact thing that leads to someone being willing to reject something as firmly rooted in scripture as the Trinity and Jesus as the only way to salvation, is someone becoming too focused on seeing God through their lens.

How this relates to worship is that I think there are certain non-negoitables when it comes to worship. I believe Romans 10 makes it clear that preaching is non- negoitable. But some churches are moving away from that. I would also say observation and partaking of the sacraments; Holy Communion and baptism, are non-negoitable. As far as how often is up to the congregations, but I believe scripture is clear those are non-negoitables when it comes to worship.

[bajagill]

I think we are closer to agreement here than you think. I totally agree with you that it is dangerous to get caught up in seeing God through our lens, and that is kind of my point.

Not to keep picking on the emergent church people, but leaders in this movement such as the afforementioned Brian McClaren and Tony Jones (who is actually who I was thinking of in my previous reference to McClaren) have been known to go so far as to say that insisting on something as fundamental as the Doctrine of the Trinity qualifies as "putting God in a box." Or also there was when the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Chruch was asked if she believed that Jesus was the only way to Heaven she answered that such thinking was "putting God in a box."

Basically what I was saying is that, while yes we should be open to new ways that God may inspire people to use their gifts, there are also certain non-negoitables that God has given us as means by which He reveals Himself to us. I believe that fundamental truths such as the Doctrine of the Trinity and Jesus being only way to salvation qualify as non-negoitable. And in my opinion, the exact thing that leads to someone being willing to reject something as firmly rooted in scripture as the Trinity and Jesus as the only way to salvation, is someone becoming too focused on seeing God through their lens.

How this relates to worship is that I think there are certain non-negoitables when it comes to worship. I believe Romans 10 makes it clear that preaching is non- negoitable. But some churches are moving away from that. I would also say observation and partaking of the sacraments; Holy Communion and baptism, are non-negoitable. As far as how often is up to the congregations, but I believe scripture is clear those are non-negoitables when it comes to worship.

Thank you VR for that. Well done sir.


I went to the RLM 'site and my comp froze up........only other time that happened was when my wife went to a site that was showing Benny Hinn. Coincidence???

[Greyshades]

The argument that we need to be open to new and different things works both ways. In other words, maybe sometimes we need to be open to traditions that might seem boring to us. There was a time in my life when liturgical worship would have seemed very boring and stale to me. But when I got over my initial discomfort and boredom with it and took the focus off myself and put it on Christ then I was able to find a beauty and richness in the liturgy, the sacraments, the traditional hymns etc that I have never seen in contemporary praise music etc.

I am not saying that liturgical, traditional worship is for everyone, but I think we need to be careful of the "I am not going to put God in a box" approach.

Amen.

I've started to really feel like God blows up boxes anyway.

I've started incorporating an "updated" way of Harp and Bowl worship. The Psalms are, of course, the easiest to work into the mix, but I've begun looking at Christ's words, and I'm now working on some things revolving around them.

~~~~~

Being as involved in music as I am, I'd like to make one comment about contemporary worship music's "me" attitude. (Totally your opinion, just want to offer a different view) I write a lot of material too. It's very easy to do one of two things. Either you write a typical praise song, or you write from experience. One thing I've noticed with a lot of the latter, is that it gets a response from people who are dealing with similar things in their own lives. I've seen on many occasions that someone hears a specific song we do, and they tell us how they "left the church", or how they "had a bad experience, and isolated themselves", and how hearing someone else talk about it with hope, helped them refocus.

I think that may be a reason why so much of the modern contemporary Christian music is like that. The artists on the radio aren't writing all of their songs with the intent that they will be played in church. They're writing a great deal of them in an attempt to reach those very kinds of people that need to hear that they're not alone in their struggles. A Worship Musician needs to be aware of that. Not every great song on the radio is truly fit for a worship setting. But, a lot of leaders look at what's "hot" and figure they need to be playing that. Some churches do that exclusively, which is their thing, I'm not knocking it. My view is, especially when it comes to the next generation, that I have a responsibility to help expose them to not just positive worship, or contemporary worship, but to all that got us where we are now. After all, if we were there the first time "Amazing Grace", or "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" were performed... would we not have called them contemporary?

Just a thought.

[VerbumReale]

I think that may be a reason why so much of the modern contemporary Christian music is like that. The artists on the radio aren't writing all of their songs with the intent that they will be played in church. They're writing a great deal of them in an attempt to reach those very kinds of people that need to hear that they're not alone in their struggles. A Worship Musician needs to be aware of that. Not every great song on the radio is truly fit for a worship setting. But, a lot of leaders look at what's "hot" and figure they need to be playing that. Some churches do that exclusively, which is their thing, I'm not knocking it. My view is, especially when it comes to the next generation, that I have a responsibility to help expose them to not just positive worship, or contemporary worship, but to all that got us where we are now. After all, if we were there the first time "Amazing Grace", or "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" were performed... would we not have called them contemporary?

Just a thought.

Great point about some contemporary songs not being intended for worship. It's easy to be critical of a song heard in worship, when it actually might be a situation of a music director focusing too much on what is hot. And I certainly don't mean to mean to suggest that all contemporary worship music is bad. And I don't mind that some of it comes from a more personal place. The contemporary music that bugs me is the types that just seems to say over and over again "I'm gonna worship You, I'm gonna worship You..." I don't even really see those as worship songs but rather songs about worship.

And I totally agree about always finding positive and effective ways to worship. What you said about "Amazing Grace" and "Great is thy Faithfulness" reminds me of saomething that I have had to say many times when I sat down with the music committee to pick hymns and I dared to pick a hymn that they might not be that familiar with (imagine the horror) and the people on the committee showed reluctance toward using that hymn. I would always respond "There was a time when people weren't that familiar with 'A mighty fortress is our God.'

[Greyshades]

If we have to hijack, I think this is the best way and subject to do so with. ;)


VR, if you haven't already, check out a book called Worship Team Handbook, by Alison Siewart, Andy Crouch, Matt & Sundee Frazier. It's an excellent resource for the Worship Team, and the Pastor alike. I mention it, because of what you say about sitting down with your committee. It covers a lot of ground in regards to building, sustaining, and moving forward with worship. There are some excellent points in there about incorporating hymns. (The chapter is called Hymns--For you, not just your grandparents)

The last paragraph:

"If you--and the group you lead--are willing to put in the extra effort to sing hymns well, you'll find all of your worship life becoming richer. You'll be stepping into the midst of a great cloud of witnesses who cheer you on in the Christian race from their vantage points in the tenth, eighteenth or twentieth centuries. You'll discover, in fact, that the great songs of faith, whenever they were written, are always and everywhere contemporary."

~~~~~

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Howlin' Wolf]

hymns are infinitely better than anything the Passion band or Vineyard could ever dream of coming up with.

[kiwisongbird]

Cool highjack...

My 16 year old son who is into heavy metal, punk - all sorts - also leads the band at his youth group here in Thailand... the youth pastor doesn't like hymns, is into the 'sing a new song' theory... anyway, slowly he has gotten a couple of Keith Green numbers introduced... and the other week they sang a hymn! I'm so proud of him!!! He loves hymns and is longing to find out how to play them in a way that makes them appropriate for people his age... but you know what??? The kids at his youth group are mainly missionary kids and know all the hymns anyway... and love them... and sing along no matter how they are put forward!!!

My personal theory with worship songs is that there are some that are inspired by personal experience, some that are time relevant so have a useby date, and some that come from the throne room of the Lord... the eternal ones... this includes all genre... that's why some hymns just don't cut it and don't seem to lead people into God's presence... and why some songs um, let's say "He is Lord, He is Lord, He is risen from the dead and He is Lord, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord" will remain forever!!

[Howlin' Wolf]

hymns are chock full of theological nuggets. New worship songs are not.

[kiwisongbird]

Yup, I agree... there's a few contemporary songs that are rich, but not many... what's ya favourite hymn?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Yup, I agree... there's a few contemporary songs that are rich, but not many... what's ya favourite hymn?


blessed assurance and God, Have mercy on me

[Greyshades]

hymns are chock full of theological nuggets. New worship songs are not.

Indeed.

To touch on what I said about contemporary, "radio friendly" music, and what I said about struggles, etc.

When you look at the stories about where a lot of the greatest hymns come from, you see that a great deal of them came through some intense personal struggles on the part of the author.

[kiwisongbird]

blessed assurance and God, Have mercy on me

Blessed Assurance is wonderful...

When I Survey the Wondrous Cross and My Jesus I Love Thee, I know Thou art Mine... and The Old Rugged Cross have got to be my favourites... apart from all the old Blood songs... well I mainly am a sucker for blood and cross songs actually.. :)

[R. Smith]

how did this turn in to a Hymns topic??? Lol... I'll join in. How great thou Art... kool kool hymn!!!

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Amazing Grace will always be my favorite. The story behind it is choke-full of epic.

[VerbumReale]

A Mighty Fortress is our God and Holy, Hoy, Holy

[Pouye]

hymns are infinitely better than anything the Passion band or Vineyard could ever dream of coming up with.

In lyric, yes. But in tune... most hymns don't do it for me. Too repetitive and piano-plunky. I love (certain) hymns set to stirring music (celtic or orchestral) much better.

As a Bible translator, I love this Hymn for the lyrics, and the music isn't that bad, either (though maybe a bit dragging):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7_l7UpRN5c&feature=related

Same hymn as a live perfermance with a pianist, flutist, cellist, and vocalist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IawsDESLnQ&feature=related

I find that some people hold to hymns as if they are somehow more sacred or holy then other forms of worship and praise music. There is nothing any more sacred about hymns than other songs written to glorify God. They are simply words put to music (often the same music over and over, which I can find quite boring). Singing four or five sets of verses to the same music can sometimes get on my nerves, as well. In my opinion hymns range from very creative and beautiful (Fairest Lord Jesus, My Jesus I Love Thee) to downright dorky or dull (Onward Christian Soldiers, Taste and See).

That said, this contemporary song is very worshipful (The Revelation Song):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObjd5wrgZ8

My main beef with contemporary stuff is that they mostly only use four chords. All of the music I write has at least 6 if not 8 or 10 (if you include the bridge).

Rock

[VerbumReale]

In lyric, yes. But in tune... most hymns don't do it for me. Too repetitive and piano-plunky. I love (certain) hymns set to stirring music (celtic or orchestral) much better.

As a Bible translator, I love this Hymn for the lyrics, and the music isn't that bad, either (though maybe a bit dragging):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7_l7UpRN5c&feature=related

Same hymn as a live perfermance with a pianist, flutist, cellist, and vocalist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IawsDESLnQ&feature=related

I find that some people hold to hymns as if they are somehow more sacred or holy then other forms of worship and praise music. There is nothing any more sacred about hymns than other songs written to glorify God. They are simply words put to music (often the same music over and over, which I can find quite boring). Singing four or five sets of verses to the same music can sometimes get on my nerves, as well. In my opinion hymns range from very creative and beautiful (Fairest Lord Jesus, My Jesus I Love Thee) to downright dorky or dull (Onward Christian Soldiers, Taste and See).

That said, this contemporary song is very worshipful (The Revelation Song):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObjd5wrgZ8

My main beef with contemporary stuff is that they mostly only use four chords. All of the music I write has at least 6 if not 8 or 10 (if you include the bridge).

Rock


What you say you don't like about some hymns is pretty much the way some people, and I would include myself, feel about some contemporary praise music, in that some of them feel like singing the same verses over and over again. That's why some of them are referred to as 7-11 songs. Some feel like it's the same 7 words, repeated eleven times.

You are right that some people treat hymns as more sacred. But I have found that is limited to older people who hold these hymns in such high regard for sertimental reasons. But most people that I have come across who prefer hymns feel that way because of the more substantive lyrics and the self-focused nature of some contemporary praise music.

There are good hymns and there are bad hymns. I don't think anybody here is saying that all hymns are good. I will confess to in general preferring hymns. But when I can find good contemporary worship music with good substantive theologically sound lyrics like Indelible Grace, then I love that also.

It's also important to remember that musical zealotry works both ways. Just as there are people who cling too tightly to traditional hymns, there are many who cling too tightly to contemporary worship and are quick to dismiss anything traditional as irrelevant.

[Pouye]

It's also important to remember that musical zealotry works both ways. Just as there are people who cling too tightly to traditional hymns, there are many who cling too tightly to contemporary worship and are quick to dismiss anything traditional as irrelevant.

Good point. :cool: By the way, what I meant by too repetitive was the music, not the lyrics. With some hymn music, if you heard one you've heard 50. That said, I love many of the Christmas Hymns, which are very creative (both musically and lyrically).

Rock

[kiwisongbird]

I had a lovely time with the Lord and a few hymns today... I went to a local retreat centre for a couple of hours and sat in the chapel and sang hymns by myself... the sun came up behind the stained glass window and really cool crucifix (seriously - Jesus is kinda of leaping off the cross in triumph) - anyway I enjoyed worshipping in there, wonderful acoustics and I was so very thankful for what Christ had done for me.. it was a special time... I think this is going to become a weekly thing - I hope so.

[Greyshades]

My main beef with contemporary stuff is that they mostly only use four chords. All of the music I write has at least 6 if not 8 or 10 (if you include the bridge).

Rock


You crazy progressive composer you...

:P

I'd like to hear some. (For the record, I also use more than four chords in the majority. At least by way of variations.)

[R. Smith]

When you thought it was over, yet another FaceBook group started up. This group is called - Tokerz Prayer Warriors. It looks like the stupitidy won't ever end... *sigh*

[Col. Mustard]

to each his own...

[mcgreen311]

When you thought it was over, yet another FaceBook group started up. This group is called - Tokerz Prayer Warriors. It looks like the stupitidy won't ever end... *sigh*

What are you trying to do...re-rail your own thread? ;)

[Howlin' Wolf]

When you thought it was over, yet another FaceBook group started up. This group is called - Tokerz Prayer Warriors. It looks like the stupitidy won't ever end... *sigh*

why do you care?

[Pouye]

why do you care?

That is actually a great question. I'm often surprised to hear that people are actually surprised about stuff like this. Sometimes, when I'm talking with other Christians, I want to say, "Duh... we live in the world!" and slap myself alongside the skull. When people start off a sentence with, "Can you believe..." I want to stop them before they finish and say, "Yes, I can -- because we live in a sinful world that is full of fragile people who are mainly controlled by Satan."

Rock

[R. Smith]

Although these so called Holy-Tokerz seem to be searching for something real, that are clinging to something that isn't of God.

[mcgreen311]

I can understand the sentiment. After all, if we are in the right there is that whole hell thing.

Unfortunately, however, we cannot control what other people do. If you have a relationship with these people, you can always do the witnessing thing, but that doesn't mean they will accept it...And in the meantime you just give yourself ulcers.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Although these so called Holy-Tokerz seem to be searching for something real, that are clinging to something that isn't of God.


so what?......so is most of the world. Only God can change the hearts of men.

[phil_ur_friend]

HE can do it in the most unlikely settings too.:)

Thank God...

Phil, your friend

[R. Smith]

I know God can do mighty things, miricles. I think the reason these groups bother me is- I've seen lots of my Church's former youth go on and leave the Church. And they follow hard after things that are not of God. It is sad to see how far some of them gone away from God.

No I don't personally know any1 who is apart of these groups. But I asked myself, would I ever join or endorse a group like this??? When I 1st got saved, my self-esteem was very low. Maybe then, I would have joined a holy Tokerz group. Why??? 'Cause back then, I wanted to belong so badly.

[prayercloth sis]

Isnt that most of the pentocostal churches in the west?



If that's pentecostal....God help me...guess i better stick with apostolic...

I became a new creature and old things are passed away...

just some thoughts...

[R. Smith]

no no, there are more Church's here in the West than Pentocostal. In my hometown, we have lots - Full Gospel, Baptist, Catholic, and so forth. I attend a Fresh Fire Church, we are called the Harvest.

[cheewiee]

no no, there are more Church's here in the West than Pentocostal. In my hometown, we have lots - Full Gospel, Baptist, Catholic, and so forth. I attend a Fresh Fire Church, we are called the Harvest.

I think Howling is saying that isn't Pentacostalism mostly a western Christian phenominon..

Depends on how you define pentacostal. Outside of the nation, people in mainline denominations are fare more open to the gifts of the spirit than they are in the US.

[kiwisongbird]

Yup, in New Zealand there aren't so many lines drawn between denominations... was quite a culture shock coming to live here in Thailand and realising that people were really quite serious about what they said about other denominations!

[R. Smith]

Tonight after prayer, for whatever reason...my Pastor showed a 'Holy Toker' video. He gave a disclaimer saying - I do not endorse this young man or this group. I just want to show how out there these guys are. It was a guy, saying he had a vision of being 'bee' in the 3rd ring of heaven. And buzzed.

During the video, and after...we mocked this young guy. Everyone who watched this said, this isn't of God. But boy did was get a kick out of it...
It seemed to me, this guy did this as a joke. It this showing God's love??? I'd say...maybe not. But it seems to me, these people take great joy in mocking God, the Bible, Jesus...everything I hold dear.