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Jesuslove
07-01-2008, 09:25 AM
http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10 675

Southern Baptist Scholar Links Spouse Abuse to Wives' Refusal to Submit to Their Husbands


One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said Sunday in a Texas church.


Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.



"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches," Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.



In North Texas for a series of sermons at the church on "Biblical Manhood & Womanhood," Ware described his "complementarian" view as what "Southern Seminary as a whole represents."



Commenting on selected passages from the first three chapters of Genesis, Ware said Eve's curse in the Garden of Eden meant "her desire will be to have her way" instead of her obeying her husband, "because she's a sinner."



What that means to the man, Ware said, is: "He will have to rule, and because he's a sinner, this can happen in one of two ways. It can happen either through ruling that is abusive and oppressive--and of course we all know the horrors of that and the ugliness of that--but here's the other way in which he can respond when his authority is threatened. He can acquiesce. He can become passive. He can give up any responsibility that he thought he had to the leader in the relationship and just say 'OK dear,' 'Whatever you say dear,' 'Fine dear' and become a passive husband, because of sin."



Ware said God created men and women equally in God's image but for different roles.



"He has primary responsibility for the work and the labor and the toil that will provide for the family, that will sustain their family," he said. "He's the one in charge of leadership in the family, and that will become difficult, because of sin."



Ware also touched on a verse from First Timothy saying that women "shall be saved in childbearing," by noting that the word translated as "saved" always refers to eternal salvation.



"It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men," Ware said. "Rather than wanting that, she accepts and embraces who she is as woman, because she knows God and she knows his ways are right and good, so she is marked as a Christian by her submission to God and in that her acceptance of God's design for her as a woman."



Ware cited gender roles as one example of churches compromising and reforming doctrines to accommodate to culture.



"It really has been happening for about the past 30 years, ever since the force of the feminist movement was felt in our churches," Ware said.



He said one place the "egalitarian" view--the notion that males and females were created equal not only in essence but also in function--crops up is in churches that allow women to be ordained and become pastors.



Ware said gender is not theologically the most important issue facing the church, but it is one where Christians are most likely to compromise, because of pressure from the culture.



"The calling to be biblically faithful will mean upholding some truths in our culture that they despise," he said. "How are we going to respond to that? We are faced with a huge question at that point. Will we fear men and compromise our faith to be men-pleasers, or will we fear God and be faithful to his word--whatever other people think or do?"



Ware offered 10 reasons "for affirming male headship in the created order." They include that man was created first and that woman was created "out of" Adam in order to be his "helper." Even though the woman sinned first, Ware said, God came to Adam and held him primarily responsible for failure to exercise his God-given authority.



Ware also said male/female relationships are modeled in the Trinity, where in the Godhead the Son "eternally submits" to the Father.



"If it's true that in the Trinity itself--in the eternal relationships of Father, Son and Spirit, there is authority and submission, and the Son eternally submits to the will of the Father--if that's true, then this follows: It is as Godlike to submit to rightful authority with joy and gladness as it is Godlike to exert wise and beneficial rightful authority."

Evanescence
07-01-2008, 09:45 AM
Waterbaord this lizard....what a jackazz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder women rebel....becuase of weak minded fool like this guy....

Jesuslove
07-01-2008, 09:51 AM
Waterbaord this lizard....what a jackazz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder women rebel....becuase of weak minded fool like this guy....

Amen Ev. What a Jack$%&

Evanescence
07-01-2008, 09:57 AM
I mean really....these goofballs are too dumb and stubborn to realize that they CAUSE femisim and rebellion....

Its no wonder the church is a laughing stock....:mad:

phil_ur_friend
07-02-2008, 10:37 PM
http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10 675


Ware also said male/female relationships are modeled in the Trinity...:eek:




WHOAHH!!!
Simmer down now buddy!
Careful!
Careful!!!

HIS ways...
HIS thoughts...

Phil, your friend

kiwisongbird
07-03-2008, 03:24 AM
A lot of what he wrote is true though, at least it rings true.. I agree that it's been a really hard time for men to be getting used to women not being their chattels, but it's not always been easy for the women either... I envy my mennonitte friends who seem to merely know their positions as women - I was a teenager in the seventies, so these roles were all rather confused for me and at times still can be...but yeah, I agree what a jack *** (*** is perfectly ok to say as it means in this context male donkey...) :) :) :) :)

Greyshades
07-03-2008, 04:14 AM
It is as Godlike to submit to rightful authority with joy and gladness as it is Godlike to exert wise and beneficial rightful authority."

If this line is understood, then what he's saying makes sense.


Will we fear men and compromise our faith to be men-pleasers, or will we fear God and be faithful to his word--whatever other people think or do?"

If this line is understood, then what you two are saying makes sense.

mcgreen311
07-03-2008, 06:14 AM
Hmm...the tenor of this thread is quite different from the one on the other board I lurk on.

Originally Posted by Jesuslove
http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10 675


Ware also said male/female relationships are modeled in the Trinity... WHOAHH!!!
Simmer down now buddy!
Careful!
Careful!!!

HIS ways...
HIS thoughts...

Phil, your friend

Phil, what are you taking issue with here? My first thought when reading the line as you quoted it was "moonies," who most orthodox Christians would agree do not have a correct view on this. How are you interpreting this?

Here's at least one thing that jumped out at me:
'It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men," Ware said.'

So is a woman who decides to forgo marriage and children to serve in a mission field (for example) not demonstrating that she is a Christian? Sure women are the only ones who can biologically have children, but is that solely what defines them? Is a single man held to the same standard?

Evanescence
07-03-2008, 05:45 PM
spin, spin, spin...typical know it all...

And the Sheep go.."Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

phil_ur_friend
07-03-2008, 07:47 PM
Phil, what are you taking issue with here?

Careful means,
careful,
that is all...

No big interpretations necessary today...

I like being careful about interpreting God's Word, don't you?

-Phil, your friend-

mcgreen311
07-04-2008, 05:03 AM
Careful means,
careful,
that is all...

No big interpretations necessary today...

I like being careful about interpreting God's Word, don't you?

-Phil, your friend-

Of course, but you quoted a specific statement and made the comment, which would make me think that you disagreed with it. Just trying to see how the wheels are turning in your head.

spin, spin, spin...typical know it all...

And the Sheep go.."Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

I thought it was "Baaaa." Unless, of course, you are describing what noise dizzy sheep might make. Just for argument and debate's sake, with what specific portions of spin do you take issue? (And don't say all.)

elby65
07-04-2008, 05:25 AM
I agree with part of what the author wrote, but disagree with a whole lot more of it. Domestic abuse has been a problem in this WORLD for a long time. The feminist movement that actually began in the late 40's (historically) was a reaction from women to men coming home from WWII and expecting the women, who kept this country moving during the war, to go home and make babies. Having had a taste of financial freedom, the woman as a group screamed, "NO WAY!" The movement intensified in the 50's, and when the birth control pill came out in the 60's and separated sexual activity and procreation, we then had the feminist movement we know today. If families patterned their lives scripturally, men would love their wives as Christ loves the church, and women would have NO PROBLEM with submitting to a man who loves them that way. Children would obey their parents, because the parents would be doing what is right for the child. Parents who are submitted to the Lord won't be punishing or inconsistently disciplining their children out of frustration and anger, rather than simply because the child needs correction. But the reason marriage does not work the way God intended it to is that WE AS PEOPLE DO NOT OBEY GOD! The only reason there is a seeming explosion in domestic violence has NOTHING to do with the feminist movement but it has everything to do with media coverage. It has always been there. Also there is the fact that, until the mid 70's, domestic violence was considered a "family matter" and not a matter of law. I can testify to that. My father put me in the hospital 17 times from the time I was 5 until I was 16 years old It was always considered a "family matter". I had no protection under the law. Today, there is protection for both the spouses (men and women are victims of domestic violence) and the children of abuse. But violence happens because people are not under the control of God. "Each man did what was right in their own eyes" (Judges 17:6 and 21:25)

Evanescence
07-05-2008, 05:11 AM
I agree Elby65...good post !!!!!!!!