Israel, USA, Iran showdown...

[Evanescence]

News today said that Isreal and US warplanes were doing drills...and a lot of them in the past 2-4 weeks...

This situation with Iran is a bad one...a real powder keg....

Gas will be 6.00 to 7.00 if Israel and Iran begin to scrap....

What should the US do?

[Mr.Supervious]

attack iran...then get rid of the environmentalists so we can drill in America..

[Aussie3rddayfan]

News today said that Isreal and US warplanes were doing drills...and a lot of them in the past 2-4 weeks...

This situation with Iran is a bad one...a real powder keg....

Gas will be 6.00 to 7.00 if Israel and Iran begin to scrap....

What should the US do?

I don't think it is necassarily a matter of what the US should be doing. Rather what the world, or the UN, should be doing. They can sanction if they want but it may not do alot; if anything.

Perhaps they could send peackeeping troops in if things look like boiling over. That could get prickly though and would take a concensus; which the UN isn't exactly very good at reaching.

Even though I doubt a full on war (which would surely incur the wrath of the UN) there is the potential for things could get very out of hand, very fast.

[Jesuslove]

News today said that Isreal and US warplanes were doing drills...and a lot of them in the past 2-4 weeks...

This situation with Iran is a bad one...a real powder keg....

Gas will be 6.00 to 7.00 if Israel and Iran begin to scrap....

What should the US do?

I saw this on the news yesterday and was going to post about it. it saddens and sickens me that Israel would consider attacking Iran, then turn to America for support. I even think this may be a conspiracy. Who knows.... maybe we're encouraging Israel to attack so that we can get into Iran. The last thing I want to see is an all out world war. Back to what I said earlier, Bush and his administration should be tried for war crimes.

As a Christian, I am also mad at Bush. Bush won the Evangelical vote. In my opinion, Bush not only turned his back on Evangelicals, he caused Evangelicals to lose credibility through his lies and deceptions. Four years ago on these boards, very few people would admit for voting Democrat and most supported the war. Four years later and many Evangelicals have abandoned Bush.

[rossid]

I had heard something positive about Iran working to have their sanctions reduced but nothing about this...


As a Christian, I am also mad at Bush. Bush won the Evangelical vote. In my opinion, Bush not only turned his back on Evangelicals, he caused Evangelicals to lose credibility through his lies and deceptions. Four years ago on these boards, very few people would admit for voting Democrat and most supported the war. Four years later and many Evangelicals have abandoned Bush.

I read your first sentence and was going to discount it. Most know I'm a republican, because conservative is not a voting option, and Bush support.

However, I do agree with you, even though it is with less contempt for him. I agree with the destruction that has been done to Evangelicals regarding credibility. I don't think it is lies and deceptions...

Okay to meet somewhere in the middle?

Did I say that? Me, moving from the right to the left? lol

;)

[Evanescence]

Rossid, question:

Does it bother you at all the proven facts that Bush lied and used bogus sources for war?

The first coming out 2-3 yrs ago with the report on Curveball and now the Senate Committe- Reps and Dems concluding he indeed LIED to take us to Iraq?

How does this set with you?

[Jesuslove]

Rossid, question:

Does it bother you at all the proven facts that Bush lied and used bogus sources for war?

The first coming out 2-3 yrs ago with the report on Curveball and now the Senate Committe- Reps and Dems concluding he indeed LIED to take us to Iraq?

How does this set with you?

Wait, that Scotty McClellan is a liar too, right? Oh wait, the administration has said, "this doesn't sound like Scotty", yet no one has gone so far to call him a liar.

[Evanescence]

Whats amazing to me is how Reps are mad over Scotts loyaty than the truth....they're not denying the claims but questioning his loyalty to the party an Bush. I heard this twice now.

What the *&** is that? He's suppose to be loyal to the Pres and LIE with and for him?

Our loyalty should be with the Republic and the constitution...not people or parties...

We are so doomed...

[rossid]

You know FrontLine slants left, BUT, their story on Cheney did trouble me. I didn't want to believe it. I don't read much of the other 'facts', they could be true, and then if they are it will greatly diminish any legacy he may have had in my eyes. I don't think, just like the mass media says, we will know for years how this 'war' defines GWB. I haven't read Scott but since y'all are pulling me in I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that he hit the target.

[Evanescence]

You know FrontLine slants left, BUT, their story on Cheney did trouble me. I didn't want to believe it. I don't read much of the other 'facts', they could be true, and then if they are it will greatly diminish any legacy he may have had in my eyes. I don't think, just like the mass media says, we will know for years how this 'war' defines GWB. I haven't read Scott but since y'all are pulling me in I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that he hit the target.

Rossid, I don't do Lefts or Rights...you know that. Heck, i think the Clitnons are guilty of murder a dn drug running...and there's a lot of proof to that.

An independent, non-partisan group should yield the truth about whats been going on. Would you truth that?

Take the time and carefully read this article. Its by the top Govt watchdog group in the US- George Washington University. The article is actually 2-3 yrs old..and more has come out since. This is a good start....I'll post the link AND a few blurbs, but read the whole thing, if you can.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB234/index.htm

This artcile shows how the WMD Intell source- CURVEBALL a CIA operative, was actually VERY questionable....and warnings were made to the Admin about his authenticity AND the accuracy of the Intell.

Some parts:

According to both of the major official U.S. investigations into Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs—by the so-called Silberman-Robb Commission and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (Note 4)—Powell based this particular claim on data gathered by the CIA, which in turn relied principally on information it had obtained indirectly from CURVEBALL. (See excerpts from both reports below.)

Secretary Powell was concerned that in his Security Council briefing he use only completely authentic data. To ensure this, he conducted an extensive — and unprecedented—review of each data element that might be included in the U.N. speech. This process took days and was performed on a continuous basis in a conference room at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. Powell relied upon his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, and a team from the State Department during this process. Participating CIA officers were provided by agency Director George J. Tenet or his deputy, John E. McLaughlin, with substantive specialists presenting relevant items in their fields of expertise. These meetings have usually been presented from the perspective of White House officials, especially vice-presidential aide I. Lewis (“Scooter”) Libby and Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, who were reported as being intent on inserting a particular menu of charges into the Powell speech. But the decision to include the CURVEBALL information was also made here. (Note 5)

This process began on January 29, the day after President George W. Bush’s State of the Union address, which had also included the claim that Iraq possessed mobile biological weapons plants. Unknown to the State Department reviewers, CIA officers elsewhere were simultaneously in an uproar over the CURVEBALL material. (Note 6) In answer to queries from CIA manager Margaret Henoch, the German intelligence service, which had Alwan in their charge, refused to certify the CURVEBALL data and denied CIA access to the original transcripts recording the conversations. Thus, the agency never had direct contact with CURVEBALL, who in fact had only been seen once by an American, an official of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), who had harbored doubts about the man. The CIA was working strictly from DIA translations of German texts. Henoch feared using third-hand information that contained transliteration problems. Her suspicions were further aroused after it became clear the German service itself doubted CURVEBALL’s reliability.

The intelligence backstory needs a brief sketch here because it bears on the question of CURVEBALL’s veracity. Alwan arrived in Munich from North Africa in November 1999, requesting political asylum. That automatically led to interviews with authorities and vetting by the German foreign intelligence service Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND). It was the BND to whom he told his tale of Iraqi weapons plants. That service in turn shared its reporting with the DIA in the Spring of 2000. The DIA subsequently shared the information with CIA.

The CIA’s Directorate of Operations is responsible for all intelligence collection of this type, and the presence of this source in Germany placed responsibility with the European Division chief, Tyler Drumheller. In his memoir, Drumheller recounts that he first heard of CURVEBALL in the fall of 2002 and made inquiries with the German liaison representative in Washington, who privately warned him of doubts about the source. Both John McLaughlin and George Tenet, in statements made after publication of the Drumheller memoir, deny that anyone made them aware of BND doubts on CURVEBALL in late September or October, when the division chief asserts that this exchange took place. Tenet in his own memoir adds that the BND representative, asked several years later about his 2002 meeting with Drumheller, denied having called CURVEBALL a fabricator, simply warning that he was a single source whose information could not be verified. (Note 7)

According to various sources, by late December the CIA was making official inquiries of the BND as to whether the U.S.—and the White House—could use the material. Drumheller’s aide, Margaret Henoch, expressed her own concerns in an e-mail circulated within CIA headquarters. Deputy Director of Central Intelligence John McLaughlin ordered subordinates to meet and reconcile their positions on CURVEBALL and his information. Analysts at CIA’s prime analytical unit in this area, the Weapons, Intelligence, Nonproliferation, and Arms Control Center (WINPAC) criticized the Directorate of Operations for questioning this information. WINPAC had already used it for its contributions to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraqi weapons programs and by now had a stake in CURVEBALL’s veracity. (Note 8) The meeting resulted in an impasse between CIA officers from the different units.

On December 20 a cable from the CIA station chief in Berlin arrived at headquarters. It contained a letter to Director Tenet from BND President August Henning saying that CURVEBALL refused to go public himself, and reiterating that BND would not permit direct American access to the source. According to Tenet, the cable went to Drumheller and was never forwarded to the CIA director. The station chief’s requests for a reply went unanswered. Tenet writes, “I had never seen the German letter but had simply been told that the German BND had cleared our use of the Curve Ball material.” (Note 9)

Division chief Drumheller raised the CURVEBALL credibility issue again in January after seeing a draft of the Bush State of the Union address with its claim of Iraqi mobile weapons plants. According to his account, he spoke to colleagues at the CIA’s Counterproliferation Division, wondering what data other than the exile’s reporting WINPAC might have to back such a claim, only to be assured there was none. Drumheller had Henoch prepare an e-mail for McLaughlin’s executive assistant summarizing the problems with the CURVEBALL information, and notes that McLaughlin later queried WINPAC’s senior analyst on this subject about the questions raised. Drumheller indicates that the CIA deputy director received “robust assurances.” (Note 10) Drumheller also told the Silberman-Robb Commission that he had attempted to delete the passage about the mobile weapons plants from the State of the Union speech.

According to Drumheller, he asked to see McLaughlin directly. “To my astonishment,” Drumheller recounts, “he appeared to have no idea that there were any problems with Curveball. ‘Oh my! I hope that’s not true,’ he said, after I outlined the issues and said the source was probably a fabricator.” (Note 11) McLaughlin, in his statement in response (see below), repeatedly declares that “no one stepped forward” to object, and that “I am equally at a loss to understand why they [CIA officers] passed up so many opportunities in the weeks prior to and after the Powell speech” to warn about CURVEBALL. McLaughlin did not say anything in his statement about a specific meeting with Drumheller, and he told the Silberman-Robb Commission that he was not aware of the CIA meeting that discussed CURVEBALL’S bona fides even though it was called by his own executive assistant, chaired by that officer, and though the executive assistant afterwards wrote a memorandum summarizing the meeting that was circulated to participants. McLaughlin says he never saw a meeting record. He also did not recall seeing Drumheller, and apparently no meeting with Drumheller was noted on McLaughlin’s daily calendar. Other CIA officials, however, recall hearing the result of the meeting at the time, and apparently exchanges of emails involved more than one of McLaughlin’s assistants. And McLaughlin told the Silberman-Robb Commission that he did meet the WINPAC analyst to hear her assurances. (Note 12)

[rossid]

I read the article, not what you posted, but did not read the six additional documents in the article. CURVEBALL made me search PBS and I found DVD + Transcript on "Bush's War" where CB was mentioned. Yes I probably would 'truth' :P, I mean, trust that...

Want to learn more about the publisher. National Security Archive - George Washington University - that seems reliable too.

[kiwisongbird]

I think we all need to buy bicycles and move to cities and towns with no hills!
Here in Thailand they've stopped selling 95 for some reason, which is a pain for us as our van uses it... not much reason about doing it either - most petrol stations have gasahol now which we can't use - the world is going crazy!

[Aussie3rddayfan]

We are so doomed...

I keep telling you, E, come over to Oz. Here's 5 good reasons:

* Better climate
* Great culture
* The beach
* No corrupt government (;) ), just a stupid one
* Sport, sport sport

and of course great people like Sandie and yours truly. :D We can even have some, er, 'discussions.' :P

[Evanescence]

I keep telling you, E, come over to Oz. Here's 5 good reasons:

* Better climate
* Great culture
* The beach
* No corrupt government (;) ), just a stupid one
* Sport, sport sport

and of course great people like Sandie and yours truly. :D We can even have some, er, 'discussions.' :P

If I were single..i'd be there !!! You're women there are wonferful, beautiful women too...love the accent...

And I like the laws on how employers treat their workers. Had some aussies dudes here that were friends i met on the web...nice lads...

Anymore crap happens here and I'm coming....:cool:

[ausgirl]

If I were single..i'd be there !!! You're women there are wonferful, beautiful women too...love the accent...

And I like the laws on how employers treat their workers. Had some aussies dudes here that were friends i met on the web...nice lads...

Anymore crap happens here and I'm coming....:cool:
Yes, we are beautiful and wonderful - for once you are right about something!!!

Col - I don't think he'd pass the entry test!!!

[Jesuslove]

If I were single..i'd be there !!! You're women there are wonferful, beautiful women too...love the accent...

And I like the laws on how employers treat their workers. Had some aussies dudes here that were friends i met on the web...nice lads...

Anymore crap happens here and I'm coming....:cool:

I'm with you EV.... we get another President like Bush and I'm taking my US government pension and leaving.

[Mr.Supervious]

if we just get rid of the environmentalists...we can have all the oil we want in America :D

[Evanescence]

Partially true...but I think they're intentioanlly stalling so we can use other peoples oil..like the 300 Billion we're stealing from Iraq....

There's not a whole lot in AK unless you believe the Gall island story...

[Howlin' Wolf]

if we just get rid of the environmentalists...we can have all the oil we want in America :D

in 25 years....that takes time.

[Howlin' Wolf]

no baseball in australia.

[Aussie3rddayfan]

Yes, we are beautiful and wonderful - for once you are right about something!!!

Col - I don't think he'd pass the entry test!!!

Despite what the media lead us to believe, 95% of people who sit the test, pass. John is a very thorough, thought provoking, determined and articulte individual so he should have no hassles becoming one of us. :D

Come on down, E and Jesuslove, I'll give you a tour of my backyard.

no baseball in Australia

What's your point? :P

We have four forms of football, tennis, cricket, motor racing and THE greatest sporting culture on the planet!