The Science of Sexuality

[Jesuslove]

An interesting study came out this week. It suggests that the brains of gay men are similar to the brains of straight women, and the brains of straight men are similar to the brains of lesbians.


Gay men and straight women share brain detail
Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:53am BST Email | Print | Share| Single Page| Recommend (1) [-] Text [+] LONDON (Reuters) - Gay men and straight women share some characteristics in the area of the brain responsible for emotion, mood and anxiety, researchers said on Monday in a study highlighting the potential biological underpinning of sexuality.

Brain scans also showed the same symmetry among lesbians and straight men, the researchers wrote in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"The observations cannot be easily attributed to perception or behaviour," the researchers from Sweden's Karolinska Institute wrote. "Whether they may relate to processes laid down during the foetal or postnatal development is an open question."

A number of studies have looked at the roles genetic, biological and environmental factors play in sexual orientation but little evidence exists that any plays an all-important role. Many scientists believe both nature and nurture play a part.

Brain scans of 90 volunteers showed that the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women were slightly asymmetric with the right hemisphere slightly larger than the left, Ivanka Savic and Pers Lindstrom wrote. The brains of gay men and heterosexual women were not.

Then they measured blood flow to the amygdala -- the area key for the "fight-or-flight" response -- and found it was wired in a similar fashion in gay men and heterosexual women as well as lesbians and heterosexual men.

The researchers added that the study cannot say whether the differences in brain shape are inherited or due to exposure to hormones such as testosterone in the womb and if they are responsible for sexual orientation.

"These observations motivate more extensive investigations of larger study groups and prompt for a better understanding of the neurobiology of homosexuality," they wrote.

[Howlin' Wolf]

we're all created with a nature predisposed to sin. Science and truth should go hand in hand.

correction: proper science

[mcgreen311]

I've got to think about this a little more so I can come up with a proper objective response, but my initial response was "bunk." Is this merely informed by "society's" ideas of gender roles or is it an attempt to prove that gay men must be feminine and gay women must be masculine?

I'd have to look at the whole study, but I wonder if there is an agenda behind this correlational study. Sometimes they purport to prove more than they do.

[Jesuslove]

I've got to think about this a little more so I can come up with a proper objective response, but my initial response was "bunk." Is this merely informed by "society's" ideas of gender roles or is it an attempt to prove that gay men must be feminine and gay women must be masculine?

I'd have to look at the whole study, but I wonder if there is an agenda behind this correlational study. Sometimes they purport to prove more than they do.

Both sides on the issue have funded lopsided studies. I wish both sides would come together and once and for all find out the answer.

[middletree]

I read the story too and it doesn't necessarily have to be bunk. The study found physical differences, but that doesn't mean they were born with those differences.

In a book I read a couple of years ago, studies were done on several men, some abused and some with happy childhoods. Those who were abused or neglected had marked differences in levels of certain hormones, and also used certain parts of their brains more than the other group.

In other words, this study may reflect that there are physical differences, but those differences might have come about after birth, and in this case, they would not be genetic. I read the long version of the story yesterday, and there was nothing in the results which pointed toward (or away from) genetic causes of the physical differences.

Very interesting stuff. As Jesuslove points out, both sides of that one contentious dispute are going to use this study to back themselves up.

[Evanescence]

I believe someday we will PROVE that some people are born gay....messed up sexually. We know people can be born with BOTH sex organs...and it happens often....and I think we will prove people can and are born gay. This is not saying ALL people who are gay are born that way...but SOME.

Till then...its all speculation....

[Jesuslove]

I believe someday we will PROVE that some people are born gay....messed up sexually. We know people can be born with BOTH sex organs...and it happens often....and I think we will prove people can and are born gay. This is not saying ALL people who are gay are born that way...but SOME.

Till then...its all speculation....

i agree. Christians often argue that "God doesn't make mistakes". But there are people born with both sex organs. How are we as a society supposed to treat these people? It's an interesting debate. I tend to agree that some people are born gay; maybe not all, but definitely some.

[rossid]

I read the story too and it doesn't necessarily have to be bunk. The study found physical differences, but that doesn't mean they were born with those differences.

Bingo.

[Jesuslove]

Bingo.

It sounds as if you have a vested stake in the validity of this study.

[middletree]

It sounds as if you have a vested stake in the validity of this study.

Not at all. The study can be 100% correct, but still doesn't answer if those physical differences are genetic, which is really the question people want answered.

[Jason]

I'll ask the two questions posed on another board:

Were the brain differences there at birth?

How large was the sample?

[Jesuslove]

I'll ask the two questions posed on another board:

Were the brain differences there at birth?

How large was the sample?

the sample was 90 people, I think. I would be curious to see a study that tracks brain characteristics from birth forward.

[Jason]

the sample was 90 people, I think. I would be curious to see a study that tracks brain characteristics from birth forward.

That's a very small sample. I'd be interested in a "from birth" study as well.

[Debbie]

i agree. Christians often argue that "God doesn't make mistakes". But there are people born with both sex organs. How are we as a society supposed to treat these people? It's an interesting debate. I tend to agree that some people are born gay; maybe not all, but definitely some.

God doesn't make mistakes. The gift of conception is what it is, it's perfect. I would venture to believe that 99% of the mistakes made that result in such births could come from some unknown exposure to unnatural substances or other, then for some, knowingly without realizing the end result. Taking one pill could damage a fetus, and now, even abort it. Sometimes, it could be in the air that we breath....there are just things.

I can't bring myself to believe that anyone would be born gay.

[Evanescence]

God doesn't make mistakes. The gift of conception is what it is, it's perfect. I would venture to believe that 99% of the mistakes made that result in such births could come from some unknown exposure to unnatural substances or other, then for some, knowingly without realizing the end result. Taking one pill could damage a fetus, and now, even abort it. Sometimes, it could be in the air that we breath....there are just things.

I can't bring myself to believe that anyone would be born gay.

Maybe thats becuase you are not gay...

My wife is an OT and for her studies...had to study infant illness and syndroms. There are THOUSANDS of things children can be born with..problems and ailments of all sorts...syndroms of every kind....new ones every day.

God doen't ake mistakes, per say...but we aren't born perfect beings. if that was the case, we'd live forever. Children are vborn with ALL KINDS of issues and problems....so much, its scary. if a child can be born with BOTH sex organs or other sexual issues, then the notion of someone being born with a sexual issue along the lines of homosexualty can be considered. I grew up with boys that were GIRLY as kids...very GIRLY...normal everyday kids who looked and acted like girls as very young kid...but was a boy. He turned out to be gay and admitted having feelings and thoughts about boys at a VERY early age. He swears he was born gay.

I had feelings and thoughts about girls at age 5.....vivid ones. We all have had these feelings...but when they are out of whack...something is wrong.

Christians just want to be stubborn and close minded about this...and will continue once its proven. Either that or they say its demons posessing the little kids into being gay. Please...lol

[Jason]

Christians just want to be stubborn and close minded about this.

Or, more accurately, we believe what the Bible says.

[mcgreen311]

God doesn't make mistakes. The gift of conception is what it is, it's perfect. I would venture to believe that 99% of the mistakes made that result in such births could come from some unknown exposure to unnatural substances or other, then for some, knowingly without realizing the end result. Taking one pill could damage a fetus, and now, even abort it. Sometimes, it could be in the air that we breath....there are just things.

I can't bring myself to believe that anyone would be born gay.

That's a possibility, but like JL, I wonder how people in the specific condition of having two sex organs are supposed to deal with this in a godly manner. It's not something that gets addressed very often or openly, and I'm sure it's a burden to bear. How the physiological aberrancies occurred is not within the person's control, so how do they approach it?

[Howlin' Wolf]

Or, more accurately, we believe what the Bible says.


The bible says you are born dead in your sins. Since we are born with this nature that is pre-disposed to sin, it is not out of the realm of faith to believe that some people are born pre-disposed to the sin of homosexuality.

[middletree]

Maybe thats becuase you are not gay...


E, this statement is a problem. I grew up in the Pentecostal church, where they valued experiences over Scripture. That is,. if Scripture said one thing, such as no tongues in groups larger than 2 or 3, and they saw a room full of people doing tongues, they'd shrug and say "Well, I don't know why the Holy Spirit is doing this, but it's happening."

If Scripture says that a behavior is sin, and if Debbie chooses to believe that that carries an implication that God wouldn't make a kid gay, then you're out of line letting your observations and experiences override Scripture.

Now, Tulip argues with Debbie in a more reasonable way: he says that people are born with a sinful nature, and certain individuals could be born with this very tendency, one which God could very well deliver them from through the power of what Jesus did on the Cross.

One could agree or disagree with Tulip, but at least his answer is Scripture-based, and not based on personal experiences. Whether Debbie is gay or straight is absolutely irrelevant.

they say its demons posessing the little kids into being gay. Please...lol

I'm really saddened by your "lol" on this. You clearly discount a huge portion of Scripture if you don't think demonic influence is a factor in all sorts of sins and strongholds.

[Jesuslove]

E, this statement is a problem. I grew up in the Pentecostal church, where they valued experiences over Scripture. That is,. if Scripture said one thing, such as no tongues in groups larger than 2 or 3, and they saw a room full of people doing tongues, they'd shrug and say "Well, I don't know why the Holy Spirit is doing this, but it's happening."

If Scripture says that a behavior is sin, and if Debbie chooses to believe that that carries an implication that God wouldn't make a kid gay, then you're out of line letting your observations and experiences override Scripture.

Now, Tulip argues with Debbie in a more reasonable way: he says that people are born with a sinful nature, and certain individuals could be born with this very tendency, one which God could very well deliver them from through the power of what Jesus did on the Cross.

One could agree or disagree with Tulip, but at least his answer is Scripture-based, and not based on personal experiences. Whether Debbie is gay or straight is absolutely irrelevant.



I'm really saddened by your "lol" on this. You clearly discount a huge portion of Scripture if you don't think demonic influence is a factor in all sorts of sins and strongholds.

Here's what I know to be fact. Jesus calls us to love all people. It is up to God to make judgements about people. It is our job to love others unconditionally.

Whether or not it's a choice, I personally think it is. I have never met a heterosexual who is equally attracted to both sexes, but choose heterosexuality because it's moral. Who one is attracted to is part of their nature.

I too grew up knowing feminine boys, who later came out as gay. I can't say for sure they were born gay, no more than anyone can say they were not. I just know they always were feminine.

[Evanescence]

Or, more accurately, we believe what the Bible says.

The bible is NOT a science book..it says nothing about people being born gay or with any ailments that are imperfect traits....

Christians don't believe people can be born gay becuase they don't believe people can be born gay. That belief is a LEARNED behavior. Its OK to think that way...i just find it illogical.

E, this statement is a problem. I grew up in the Pentecostal church, where they valued experiences over Scripture. That is,. if Scripture said one thing, such as no tongues in groups larger than 2 or 3, and they saw a room full of people doing tongues, they'd shrug and say "Well, I don't know why the Holy Spirit is doing this, but it's happening."

If Scripture says that a behavior is sin, and if Debbie chooses to believe that that carries an implication that God wouldn't make a kid gay, then you're out of line letting your observations and experiences override Scripture.

Now, Tulip argues with Debbie in a more reasonable way: he says that people are born with a sinful nature, and certain individuals could be born with this very tendency, one which God could very well deliver them from through the power of what Jesus did on the Cross.

One could agree or disagree with Tulip, but at least his answer is Scripture-based, and not based on personal experiences. Whether Debbie is gay or straight is absolutely irrelevant.


Its totally relevant. Its like the sqeaky clean, 19 yr old counselor telling me how wrong it is to do soemthing...when he ain't even had his first kiss yet...or his drink. How can someone make a statement about someone's sexuality...which is a MEDICAL issue, when they're not the same?

How can we identify with them?

I'm really saddened by your "lol" on this. You clearly discount a huge portion of Scripture if you don't think demonic influence is a factor in all sorts of sins and strongholds.

Sorry, but I'm saddened by my fellow Christians who are often VERY well educated and smart, intelligent people...yet so weak minded they blame everything on demons and the devil. Everything we don't understand we blame on the devil and the demon guys. Its a lame excuse and copout.

Where's the wisdom of the Christian church? We often act like we did in the 1500s....making absurd accusations based on superstition and twisted scritpture...

[ausgirl]

God doesn't make mistakes. The gift of conception is what it is, it's perfect. I would venture to believe that 99% of the mistakes made that result in such births could come from some unknown exposure to unnatural substances or other, then for some, knowingly without realizing the end result. Taking one pill could damage a fetus, and now, even abort it. Sometimes, it could be in the air that we breath....there are just things.

I can't bring myself to believe that anyone would be born gay.
I agree Debbie - God's creation is perfect, it is man's bad choices that mess it up.

[middletree]

Here's what I know to be fact. Jesus calls us to love all people. It is up to God to make judgements about people. It is our job to love others unconditionally.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm calling looking to the bible for answers about where certain tendencies come from, and what causes them to sin.

[AtlBraves]

I believe that homosexuality is a demonic spirit that people are attacked with. I don't believe that people are "born" gay. But somewhere along the line there are events that set it into motion. If satan sees an opening to attack someone he is going to do it. And I believe that is what is taking place with people who are homosexual. The fact that people can stop being homosexual and choose to not go down that path proves that it is something that choose. Not something that you are born with.

I agree with debbie and ausgirl on this. God doesnt make mistakes in creation and He cannot contradict himself. So either the entire idea of God contradicting himself is in question or people are not "born" gay

[middletree]

The bible is NOT a science book..it says nothing about people being born gay or with any ailments that are imperfect traits....
Not true at all. David's baby died specifically because of his parents' (David and Bathsheba's) sin. When Jesus healed a lame man, the apostles asked Him who sinned, possibly the mans' parents, to cause this man to be born this way. Jesus said that nobody did, but the fact that He didn't rebuke them for asking the question, as He so often did, means it was a reasonable question.

Christians don't believe people can be born gay becuase they don't believe people can be born gay. That belief is a LEARNED behavior. Its OK to think that way...i just find it illogical.
And I'm saying that scripture needs to be our foundation for what we think. Your posts indicate that you give more weight to your logic, observations, and personal experiences than to Scripture. I disagree with this stance because of who wrote Scripture.

I mean, here we all are, seeking answers to an important question, and you are choosing to look at man's attempted answers over the wisest being, the One with all the answers, the One who designed us.

Like I said, if you came to different conclusions than me, and based those on the Word of God, you'd get no argument from me. But everything you have written here shows that you're basing it on everything but the Word.

Its totally relevant. Its like the sqeaky clean, 19 yr old counselor telling me how wrong it is to do soemthing...when he ain't even had his first kiss yet...or his drink. How can someone make a statement about someone's sexuality...which is a MEDICAL issue, when they're not the same?

Debbie said she doesn't believe God would do that to a kid, based on her understanding of the nature of God. I will take that over someone being gay any day.

By the way, I have never robbed a bank, but I am qualified to tell you it's wrong. I have never murdered, yet if chosen to be on a jury for a murder trial, I'd have no problem rendering a verdict. I don't have to identify with anyone in order to come to a conclusion about behavior.

Sorry, but I'm saddened by my fellow Christians who are often VERY well educated and smart, intelligent people...yet so weak minded they blame everything on demons and the devil. Everything we don't understand we blame on the devil and the demon guys. Its a lame excuse and copout.

Where's the wisdom of the Christian church? We often act like we did in the 1500s....making absurd accusations based on superstition and twisted scritpture...

I must admit, I'm boiling at this statement. You best not call me weak minded again, or we're going to have a problem.

As for the non-name-calling content of your statement, my response is that I never said "everything" is to rooted in demons. You used the word "everything" in the above quote, when I never said that. Such tactics are only necessary when one doesn't have a leg to stand on in a debate. It's not an excuse, nor a copout.

I didn't come to this understanding about the role of demons by being weak-minded. I came at it by years of study. My position on this is solid and very provable by Scripture. It's clear that in many cases, demons do damage by tempting us. You'd have to throw out a large portion of the New Testament to think otherwise. This strong-minded believer not willing to do so. Jesus believed it, too. I'm pretty sure nobody would classify Him as weak-minded.

[Jason]

The thing is, E, you don't seem to blame anything on demons and if that's true, you're denying Biblical truth.

[Debbie]

Its totally relevant.

No E, it isn't. I wouldn't change my way of living or thinking to give any other argument other than the one I already have.

The bible is NOT a science book
It isn't called a science book, but it is the best one I have ever read. It actually makes sense. Where'as putting tons of thought into the scientific foundation of our behavior, unless you are without God, or, looking for a justifiable excuse for it, just doesn't make any sense to me.

yet so weak minded
You know better than that. I'll just toss that little birdie right back you if you use science or other to justify sin because you haven't found or have not looked for it biblicaly. Lacking trust and faith or by allowing other notions as a possibility could be what is preventing you from doing so. Anything you want to know is in the Bible, you just have to trust that you will find the answer. After all, it is called the book of life.

Allowing science to be your guide won't get you the answers you seek because you are looking in the wrong book.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

[Jason]

E, God created the universe and He wrote the Bible, so I think He got the science parts right. If you'd like, I'll gladly send you a book on scientific facts in the Bible.

[Jason]

Proverbs 3:5-6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Debbie, beautiful verses. From my book:

Leaning on My Own Understanding

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5–6

When I was seven years old, I visited my grandma in Indiana. In the summer, she lived in a cottage on beautiful Lake James. Not far from her cottage was a Christian camp. A camp counselor there named Scott spent some time with me during my visit. He was extremely nice and I enjoyed my time with him. Before I left Indiana, Scott gave me a Bible. In the front cover, he wrote: “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths” (Proverbs 3:5–6).

Over the next twelve years that Bible collected dust on my bookshelf. Every once in a while I would read a few chapters, but it didn’t make much sense to me.

When I was nineteen, some college friends began to share with me about Jesus Christ. A few months later I became a Christian. I blew the dust off my old Bible and began to read. What once were just words on a page suddenly became truth to me. God opened my eyes as I began to read His Word and He showed me wondrous things I had never seen before.

One day I reread the inscription Scott made in the front cover. I realized that he had tried to warn me about what I had done for twelve years. All that time I was leaning on my own understanding instead of trusting in the Lord. I tried to figure out the Bible with my own intellect and got nowhere.

Once I became a Christian and acknowledged God in my life, He began to direct me and make His words clear to me. Sometimes I still try to lean on my own understanding when I read the Bible. But if I open the Bible with prayer that God will make it clear to me, I have a solid rock to lean on. If I acknowledge Him, He will direct me.

Allow God to reveal Himself to you through His Word. Trust Him and He will light your path through the darkness.

[Evanescence]

I must admit, I'm boiling at this statement. You best not call me weak minded again, or we're going to have a problem.

As for the non-name-calling content of your statement, my response is that I never said "everything" is to rooted in demons. You used the word "everything" in the above quote, when I never said that. Such tactics are only necessary when one doesn't have a leg to stand on in a debate. It's not an excuse, nor a copout.

I didn't come to this understanding about the role of demons by being weak-minded. I came at it by years of study. My position on this is solid and very provable by Scripture. It's clear that in many cases, demons do damage by tempting us. You'd have to throw out a large portion of the New Testament to think otherwise. This strong-minded believer not willing to do so. Jesus believed it, too. I'm pretty sure nobody would classify Him as weak-minded.


I called you weak minded? Where? Who specifially did I call weak minded? No one...

In fact i didn't even steerotype ALL Chrisitians....I said this:

Sorry, but I'm saddened by my fellow Christians who are often VERY well educated and smart, intelligent people...yet so weak minded they blame everything on demons and the devil. Everything we don't understand we blame on the devil and the demon guys. Its a lame excuse and copout.

Fellow Christians who are OFTEN....not always weak minded in this arena. I did not name call or say anyone specifically. You have to decide for yourself if you fitr into this catagory.

I guess I should have said SOME of my fellow Christians....so my bad for sounding like I am lumping...

I didn't come to this understanding about the role of demons by being weak-minded. I came at it by years of study. My position on this is solid and very provable by Scripture. It's clear that in many cases, demons do damage by tempting us. You'd have to throw out a large portion of the New Testament to think otherwise. This strong-minded believer not willing to do so. Jesus believed it, too. I'm pretty sure nobody would classify Him as weak-minded.

While I agree with your statement....it is flawed IMO. The words PROVED, DEMON and SCRIPTURE do not go together. You can't prove demons anymore than i can prove UFOs exist. Its based on belief. I too believe but I don't blame eveyrhting i can't understand on them.

Jason says i don't blame ANYTHING on them. Perhaps he's right.

I just know I've heard every concievable idea blamed on demons...from illness to UFOs, to ghosts, to gays to the world being round. Heck, men in the 1500s were burned at the stake by this same suspersticious mentality.

So, we think that demons can trick little kids into turning gay? Is that it? I thought kids were children of God and protected by him?

All i know is that I'm not giving the devil anymore credit than he deserves...if I have an upset stomch tonight, I'm not calling an exorcist to remove a demon....I'm gonna take some Pepto Bismal and move on. Demons turning mature adluts into pervs and perhaps gays...yep...I can believe it..I seen it and have been attcked by demons of this nature...not about turning gay but trying to trick me into sexual perversion. But truning little kids gay? Nope, ain't buying it.

UFOs? Nope, ain't buying it either....demons don't burn 10" round holes 4 feet deep nd leave traces of radiation.

God given common sense folks...our bodies are not perfect...not at brith or though life. We are born dying.

[Jason]

So, E, if demons exist (which the Bible clearly states), what do they do? And if you still don't think they exist, may I suggest a trip to Haiti? Or Benin?

[Evanescence]

E, God created the universe and He wrote the Bible, so I think He got the science parts right. If you'd like, I'll gladly send you a book on scientific facts in the Bible.

And I'll send you my TWO books....books on the life and testimony of pastors. Pastors of all Denoms and walks of life.

I ask this question:

How accurate do you feelt he Bible is scientifically, historically and through the translations.

Of 145 pastors surveyed in the two books...100 in one, 45 in another. Probably 50% said "the Bible is not a science book"

Probabaly 50% questioned its accuracy in some way, shape or form.

Its has science issues in it..but its NOT a sciece book. Why do I say that?

Becuase the Bible says WHY God did...not HOW. Thats why we live by FAITH...

This why SOME people in Christianity are so dishonest. If they express an opinion, they get bombarded by Bible verses and condemnation...so they'd rather lie and go with the flow. Me I could care less.

I wonder how many reading this will pray for me as they go to bed...praying for the poor lost Evanescence, blinded by his own mind etc etc. Sorry, keep your prayers...I'm doing OK without them.

I believe some people are born gay. I TRUST my fellow man when they tell me thats what they believe about themselves. I won't slap their face with demon talk...and will wait to see if science proves it. Thats that.

Goodnight, the lost E...;)

[Jason]

So another 50% didn't question its accuracy.

Do you want the book or not?

[Evanescence]

So, E, if demons exist (which the Bible clearly states), what do they do? And if you still don't think they exist, may I suggest a trip to Haiti? Or Benin?

I don't know. Call them up and ask them. I'm not a demonologist.

I find it funny how people use demons for THEIR agenda....but would scoff at someone elses ideas or opinions about demons. Its like their JOKER card...or Get out of FREE card....

You know a WHOLE LOT of Chrisitans believe ALL illness comes from demons. they have scripture to back it up. Ya'll think that?

Maybe you're all lost like me then? ;)

[Howlin' Wolf]

ummm how did my post get lost in the shuffle? tree was the only one to acknowledge it, and i laid out a very valid point thats been ignored.

[Evanescence]

So another 50% didn't question its accuracy.

Do you want the book or not?

Sure, I'll PM you...

[Jason]

ummm how did my post get lost in the shuffle? tree was the only one to acknowledge it, and i laid out a very valid point thats been ignored.

Sorry, Jason.

[Evanescence]

The bible says you are born dead in your sins. Since we are born with this nature that is pre-disposed to sin, it is not out of the realm of faith to believe that some people are born pre-disposed to the sin of homosexuality.

This one?

I don't really follow the idea...

Can you exlain in laymans terms...??

[Jason]

From The Evidence Bible:

Homosexuals argue that they did not make a conscious decision to be that way, so it must be natural. They are born that way—just as all of us are born with a sin nature and sinful desires (Ephesians 2:1– ). Tell them that it is natural for them, and for all of us, to be tempted to do things that God says are wrong. In the same way, pedophiles and adulterers (alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.) don’t make a conscious decision to "choose" that self-destructive lifestyle, they simply give in to their sinful desires. However, although sin is natural for unbelievers, that doesn’t mean God wants them to remain that way. God can set them free from their sinful nature (Romans 7:23–8:2), give them new desires (Ephesians 4:22–24), and help them withstand temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13). See 1 Corinthians 6:9– 1 footnote.

[Howlin' Wolf]

This one?

I don't really follow the idea...

Can you exlain in laymans terms...??

man is born with a sin nature. that sin nature could include a desire for the same sex. sin is sin. lust is lust. we're all messed up without Christ!

[Debbie]

ummm how did my post get lost in the shuffle? tree was the only one to acknowledge it, and i laid out a very valid point thats been ignored.

I'm sorry Tulip....your response does raise a few questions:

The bible says you are born dead in your sins. Since we are born with this nature that is pre-disposed to sin, it is not out of the realm of faith to believe that some people are born pre-disposed to the sin of homosexuality.

Clearly you do not imply that this particular sin or any sin has any scientific relevance.

If I am reading your statement correctly, you are saying, at birth, anyone can become homosexual, a drunkard, prostitute or dope addict, murderer etc etc, or all of the above. All of us are born (not created - in the womb) pre-disposed to any sin. At a time in our life, we get caught up in them, we can turn away from our sin and turn to God by our own chosing. Or, we don't get caught up in that sin at all.

In other words, people are not born homosexual, but were born pre-disposed to the sin of homosexuality. I hope I said what I am thinking correctly and with understanding......

[Howlin' Wolf]

I'm sorry Tulip....your response does raise a few questions:



Clearly you do not imply that this particular sin or any sin has any scientific relevance.

If I am reading your statement correctly, you are saying, at birth, anyone can become homosexual, a drunkard, prostitute or dope addict, murderer etc etc, or all of the above. All of us are born (not created - in the womb) pre-disposed to any sin. At a time in our life, we get caught up in them, we can turn away from our sin and turn to God by our own chosing. Or, we don't get caught up in that sin at all.

In other words, people are not born homosexual, but were born pre-disposed to the sin of homosexuality. I hope I said what I am thinking correctly and with understanding......


not quite. I am saying we are all born into sin and that sin is disgusting to God. so while some may be born with a disposition to the same sex, it merits zero distinction in God's eyes, so we cant use the ""God doesnt make mistakes excuse. Gay lust is the same as straight lust. When Christ said that "some" were created to be eunichs for the kigdom of Heaven, i do believe He was referring to believers that struggle with homosexual lust.

Just because God creates us with this dispostion to certain sins, that is no excuse to remain in sin.

[Debbie]

not quite. I am saying we are all born into sin and that sin is disgusting to God. so while some may be born with a disposition to the same sex, it merits zero distinction in God's eyes, so we cant use the ""God doesnt make mistakes excuse. Gay lust is the same as straight lust. When Christ said that "some" were created to be eunichs for the kigdom of Heaven, i do believe He was referring to believers that struggle with homosexual lust.

Just because God creates us with this dispostion to certain sins, that is no excuse to remain in sin.


Thanks Tulip for explanation. I understand what you are saying. Now I need to analyze it, while I'm sleeping.

[Jason]

not quite. I am saying we are all born into sin and that sin is disgusting to God. so while some may be born with a disposition to the same sex, it merits zero distinction in God's eyes, so we cant use the ""God doesnt make mistakes excuse. Gay lust is the same as straight lust. When Christ said that "some" were created to be eunichs for the kigdom of Heaven, i do believe He was referring to believers that struggle with homosexual lust.

Just because God creates us with this dispostion to certain sins, that is no excuse to remain in sin.

Jason, does my post (#39) go along with your thoughts?

[Jesuslove]

I'm not judging anyone. I'm calling looking to the bible for answers about where certain tendencies come from, and what causes them to sin.

I never said you were judging anyone. I'm just telling you how I live my life and how I choose to treat others, based on scripture.

While I look to the Bible for answers often, I also know science has progressed since the days of the Bbile. We have new knowledge. God blessed us with wisdom to see things different and to learn. Occasionally, you'll read about a child that dies because the Christian parents refuse to allow the child to be medicated. Surely, people live longer today because of meds that are available and wisdom that didn't exist at the time of Jesus. There is a new scientific philosophy on Homosexuality that exists too.... one that is supported by mainstream medical and psychological organizations in the US and around the world. One can't just bury their head in the sand and pretend like this knowledge doesn't exist.

Also, when many Christians look at the context of the Bible, they don't consider the social structure and mores of Israel at that time.

I agree with Ev..... I feel Christians want to believe that homosexuality is something that one can't be born with, and refuse to see it any other way.

[Jesuslove]

And I'll send you my TWO books....books on the life and testimony of pastors. Pastors of all Denoms and walks of life.

I ask this question:

How accurate do you feelt he Bible is scientifically, historically and through the translations.

Of 145 pastors surveyed in the two books...100 in one, 45 in another. Probably 50% said "the Bible is not a science book"

Probabaly 50% questioned its accuracy in some way, shape or form.

Its has science issues in it..but its NOT a sciece book. Why do I say that?

Becuase the Bible says WHY God did...not HOW. Thats why we live by FAITH...

This why SOME people in Christianity are so dishonest. If they express an opinion, they get bombarded by Bible verses and condemnation...so they'd rather lie and go with the flow. Me I could care less.

I wonder how many reading this will pray for me as they go to bed...praying for the poor lost Evanescence, blinded by his own mind etc etc. Sorry, keep your prayers...I'm doing OK without them.

I believe some people are born gay. I TRUST my fellow man when they tell me thats what they believe about themselves. I won't slap their face with demon talk...and will wait to see if science proves it. Thats that.

Goodnight, the lost E...;)

See Ev, here's the problem.... SOME Christians have such a vested interest in believing people are not born gay, that they will never consider the possibility of what gays have told us for years, that people are born gay. If SOME Chrisitans accept that people are born gay, then they would have to revisit civil rights issues. In other words, if someday we divscover homosexuality is not a choice, Christians would have to accept that gays are entitled to the same civil rights such as marriage, adoption rights, etc.

[Jesuslove]

One other thought, why would someone choose to be gay? What's so glamorous about the gay lifestyle? I say nothing. When teenagers come out, they are often rejected by their families, friends, churches, and even society. They are treated as second class citizens, and they are looked down upon by people throughout the world. In Nazi Germany, they were murdered alongside the Jews. Why in the world would someone choose this? This isn't glamorous, it's painful. The only thing I can think of is it is really inbred. Some do change, but some don't. In my lifetime, I know more people that were heterosexual (I think due to societal pressures) and later were homosexual, than people that were homosexual who later became heterosexual. I believe what Ev says... some are born gay, some are not.

As for the theory of Demons, Ev hit the nail on the head. SOME Christians pull out the Joker card (Demons) when they can't locially explain why something occurs. It's easy to pull out the demon card. A logical person can't challenge the demon card.

As for how we are born, we are all born with imperfections. Some are born blind, some are born handicapped. Why is it such a foreign concept that some could be born gay?

[middletree]

I called you weak minded? Where? Who specifially did I call weak minded? No one...

In fact i didn't even steerotype ALL Chrisitians....I said this:

Sorry, but I'm saddened by my fellow Christians who are often VERY well educated and smart, intelligent people...yet so weak minded they blame everything on demons and the devil. Everything we don't understand we blame on the devil and the demon guys. Its a lame excuse and copout.

Fellow Christians who are OFTEN....not always weak minded in this arena. I did not name call or say anyone specifically. You have to decide for yourself if you fitr into this catagory.

I guess I should have said SOME of my fellow Christians....so my bad for sounding like I am lumping...



While I agree with your statement....it is flawed IMO. The words PROVED, DEMON and SCRIPTURE do not go together. You can't prove demons anymore than i can prove UFOs exist. Its based on belief. I too believe but I don't blame eveyrhting i can't understand on them.

Jason says i don't blame ANYTHING on them. Perhaps he's right.

I just know I've heard every concievable idea blamed on demons...from illness to UFOs, to ghosts, to gays to the world being round. Heck, men in the 1500s were burned at the stake by this same suspersticious mentality.

So, we think that demons can trick little kids into turning gay? Is that it? I thought kids were children of God and protected by him?

All i know is that I'm not giving the devil anymore credit than he deserves...if I have an upset stomch tonight, I'm not calling an exorcist to remove a demon....I'm gonna take some Pepto Bismal and move on. Demons turning mature adluts into pervs and perhaps gays...yep...I can believe it..I seen it and have been attcked by demons of this nature...not about turning gay but trying to trick me into sexual perversion. But truning little kids gay? Nope, ain't buying it.

UFOs? Nope, ain't buying it either....demons don't burn 10" round holes 4 feet deep nd leave traces of radiation.

God given common sense folks...our bodies are not perfect...not at brith or though life. We are born dying.
Terrible response in many levels. For one, you used the "weak-minded" phrase in response to my post which said that some sins are strongholds and demons play a part in that.
Secondly, I never said anything about an upset stomach. Your attempts to distract from the things actually said are laughable.

[Jesuslove]

Terrible response in many levels. For one, you used the "weak-minded" phrase in response to my post which said that some sins are strongholds and demons play a part in that.
Secondly, I never said anything about an upset stomach. Your attempts to distract from the things actually said are laughable.

Which sins are strongholds? Is there a possibilty people are born gay or are you saying absolutely not.

[Valpo]

Whether people are born gay or not is irrelevant from a sin standpoint. Since sin is a corruption of our nature, it would actually make some sense if people were "born gay." I don't necessarily buy that it is genetic though. I choose the women I like, and choose not to like men, because of Genesis. Jesus re-affirms strongly that male and female He created them.

As far as making it a civil rights issue goes, that's a bit off base IMO. Gays can lawfully eat/drink wherever they want and are not considered inferior by law like Black people were. Whether or not individuals discriminate is extremely different then institutionalized discrimination, as was the case toward Blacks. Gay people may be and one could argue, often are subject of prejudice and discrimination, but under no circumstances can a gay person be barred from eating at a restaurant based solely on their homosexuality. Black people and other colored people were barred because of their pigment. Unless a gay person is flaunting themselves, or is drawing attention to themselves in some other fashion, they will not be discriminated against based on appearance. Clowns of all shapes and sizes can be barred from private establishments because individual owners don't want certain behaviors or negative attention being drawn to their establishment. But if two normal gay guys are having dinner, and aren't all over each other, they would not be discriminated against.

To equate this with what Black people have gone through in this country is a bit silly.

[Greyshades]

Wow...

Anybody ever read Romans 1:18-32?

Pay close attention to the end of verse 32 as you sit and try to justify what Scripture describes as "sinful", "depraved", "perverted", etc... as something that should be accepted as something that is beyond their control.

This argument is ridiculous. And quite frankly, I don't care how that statement makes you "feel". It's those same "feelings", more, "emotions" that got you into a place that compromises the truth.

And all this talk about the importance of the science... the need for proof... the desire for more knowledge concerning this garbage... sounds like some modern, twisted Gnosticism to me.

Somebody had to say it. And it's not the first time I've been blunt about this on these very boards.

Tulip, I completely agree. Jason, I'm a supporter of Ray Comfort myself. I'd add to the Evidence Bible quote, what Ray often says to anyone who says, "But I was born gay!"

He says, and I say, "Yeah, I was born with the propensity to commit sin too. But I knew right from wrong, and I chose right."

Let me say though, in the interest of answering any "who are you to judge" things. A person's state, be it sinner or not, does not change our responsibility as believers. We are to reach out to the dying world. I don't have to "like" somebody, nor do I have to agree with their choices, but I do have to love them. The biggest show of love I can display to them, is not to accept or condone their sinful lifestyle, but to convince them that it is wrong, and that they are storing up wrath for themselves. If I love them, I'll do all I can to convict.

And yes, I know plenty of homosexuals. One of them is a cousin, who's father was a pastor. Touchy subject. I also live outside of Atlanta and do a great deal of work in an area called "Buckhead". Look it up if you're ever down here, they're not hard to miss.

[Jesuslove]

Whether people are born gay or not is irrelevant from a sin standpoint. Since sin is a corruption of our nature, it would actually make some sense if people were "born gay." I don't necessarily buy that it is genetic though. I choose the women I like, and choose not to like men, because of Genesis. Jesus re-affirms strongly that male and female He created them.

Wait.....You say you choose women....because of Genesis. So you are equally attracted to men and women but choose women because it's moral?

[Valpo]

Wait.....You say you choose women....because of Genesis. So you are equally attracted to men and women but choose women because it's moral?

whoa whoa whoa

no. i find men repulsive, as jerry seinfeld would say...

I'm saying I choose my sexuality though. I am not attracted to men, I am attracted to women. Probably a bad example though. We were created "male and female." So, just as in everything, left to our own we choose sin over godly things. Homosexuals struggle with a particular kind of sexual perversion, which is a sin. Many heterosexuals likewise deal/struggle with sexual perversion. No difference as far as the sin goes, both are damnable, but the only difference would be if someone who struggled with homosexuality or heterosexual lust recognized their sin and confessed it.

Not surprising in the least bit however that people don't like being told they are sinners. Be it a gay person, a drunk, a divorcee, a porn addict, a drug addict, etc etc. It's all sin, and it all needs the cross.

[Jesuslove]

whoa whoa whoa

no. i find men repulsive, as jerry seinfeld would say...

I'm saying I choose my sexuality though. I am not attracted to men, I am attracted to women. Probably a bad example though. We were created "male and female." So, just as in everything, left to our own we choose sin over godly things. .

So it's natural for you to be attracted to the opposite sex. Could it be natural for one to be attracted to the same sex? Or are homosexuals just perverts that want to be different or purposely sin to hurt others? I just don't buy it.

As I said earlier in this thread...... why would anyone choose a lifestyle that could result in losing family, friends, your job, etc.? If it wasn't natural to that person, why would someone choose to risk it all for sin? And I don't think pedophilia is a fair comparison. I'm talking about relationships between two consenting adults.

[Jason]

So it's natural for you to be attracted to the opposite sex. Could it be natural for one to be attracted to the same sex? Or are homosexuals just perverts that want to be different or purposely sin to hurt others? I just don't buy it.


Read Romans 1.

As I said earlier in this thread...... why would anyone choose a lifestyle that could result in losing family, friends, your job, etc.? If it wasn't natural to that person, why would someone choose to risk it all for sin? And I don't think pedophilia is a fair comparison. I'm talking about relationships between two consenting adults.

Ask Chinese Christians why they chose to follow Christ, when it could mean imprisonment or worse.

[Valpo]

So it's natural for you to be attracted to the opposite sex. Could it be natural for one to be attracted to the same sex? Or are homosexuals just perverts that want to be different or purposely sin to hurt others? I just don't buy it.

As I said earlier in this thread...... why would anyone choose a lifestyle that could result in losing family, friends, your job, etc.? If it wasn't natural to that person, why would someone choose to risk it all for sin? And I don't think pedophilia is a fair comparison. I'm talking about relationships between two consenting adults.

Your "feelings" are pretty irrelevant matched up next to the Word of God. I'm not saying we take gays into the streets and publicly humiliate them or that we should even be prejudice or mean spirited to them. But Christians are set a part from the world, and homosexuality is a perversion of God's creation. But not just homosexuality. As I pointed out earlier, heterosexuals do their fair share of perverting God's creation.

[mcgreen311]

See Ev, here's the problem.... SOME Christians have such a vested interest in believing people are not born gay, that they will never consider the possibility of what gays have told us for years, that people are born gay. If SOME Chrisitans accept that people are born gay, then they would have to revisit civil rights issues. In other words, if someday we divscover homosexuality is not a choice, Christians would have to accept that gays are entitled to the same civil rights such as marriage, adoption rights, etc.

The issue as I see it has nothing to do with civil rights and this distracts from the issue. The problem with the result of the "born gay" argument is that many use it as a pass to continue in the behavior. If most people who believe this still acknowledged the need to change, I don't think there would be as much opposition to the notion. I also don't think it's genetic or physiological, but I am open to legitimate scientific evidence to the contrary. Tulip's explanation of being pre-disposed to certain types of sins is one I've considered. After all, every one of us struggles with different things.

[Jesuslove]

Read Romans 1.



Ask Chinese Christians why they chose to follow Christ, when it could mean imprisonment or worse.

Jason,
Your analogy makes no sense. I'm not saying ignore the Bible. I'm saying read the Bible and look at modern science. God gave us brains and gave us knowledge so that we can make informed decisions.

[Jesuslove]

Your "feelings" are pretty irrelevant matched up next to the Word of God. I'm not saying we take gays into the streets and publicly humiliate them or that we should even be prejudice or mean spirited to them. But Christians are set a part from the world, and homosexuality is a perversion of God's creation. But not just homosexuality. As I pointed out earlier, heterosexuals do their fair share of perverting God's creation.

What about people born with both sex organs. Are they born perverts?

[Jason]

Jason,
Your analogy makes no sense. I'm not saying ignore the Bible. I'm saying read the Bible and look at modern science. God gave us brains and gave us knowledge so that we can make informed decisions.

You asked, "why would anyone choose a lifestyle that could result in losing family, friends, your job, etc.?"

Chinese Christians chose a lifestyle that often means losing those very things. So, the analogy makes perfect sense.

[Jesuslove]

You asked, "why would anyone choose a lifestyle that could result in losing family, friends, your job, etc.?"

Chinese Christians chose a lifestyle that often means losing those very things. So, the analogy makes perfect sense.

I disagree. Most Chinese christians wouldn't lose their families because they are Christians, and they may not lose their friends. However, they probably are discriminated against by government and society.

[middletree]

SOME Christians have such a vested interest in believing people are not born gay, that they will never consider the possibility of what gays have told us for years, that people are born gay.


Offensive post, JL, for several reasons. For one thing, you are discounting the fact that many people come to their conclusions about whether or not something is a sin for the wrong reasons (vested interest). In fact, I came about mine because I studied the Word. I would not counter your post if you had also done some study and come to a different conclusion. But your post quoted above (as well as several others of yours) indicates that you believe that those who agree with you are informed, and those who do not agree with you are forming their opinions for the wrong reasons. And that is completely uncalled for.

Ironically, this position of yours is exactly the opposite of what you say regarding divorce and remarriage. On that topic, you say: "The bible says this is sin, and the fact that so many Christians ignore this directive and go ahead and do it, and pretend there's nothing wrong with it, is doing damage to the Church." (My paraphrase, but I think it's a fair representation of your views on that subject).

So I want to make sure I get this straight: If the bible says something is sin, you value the Word of God over the experiences and opinions of people, if the subject is divorce and remarriage, but if the topic is homosexuality, and all other criteria are the same, then you value the opinions and experiences of people over what the Word says. Is that correct?

[Jason]

I disagree. Most Chinese christians wouldn't lose their families because they are Christians, and they may not lose their friends. However, they probably are discriminated against by government and society.

Worse. They may be imprisoned. So, yes they lose their families and friends.

[Evanescence]

What about people born with both sex organs. Are they born perverts?

Hmmm...the sound of silence with this one. Lets go to Wikipedia for a look-see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

and,......

Prevalence
The prevalence of intersex depends on which definition is used.

According to the ISNA definition above, 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity, approximately one in every hundred births. [31] Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to disguise their sexual ambiguity.

According to Fausto-Sterling's definition of intersex[32], on the other hand, 1.7 percent of human births are intersex.[32] She writes,

“ While male and female stand on the extreme ends of a biological continuum, there are many bodies [...] that evidently mix together anatomical components conventionally attributed to both males and females. The implications of my argument for a sexual continuum are profound. If nature really offers us more than two sexes, then it follows that our current notions of masculinity and femininity are cultural conceits.
[...] Modern surgical techniques help maintain the two-sex system. Today children who are born "either/or-neither/both" — a fairly common phenomenon — usually disappear from view because doctors "correct" them right away with surgery.[32]
”

According to Leonard Sax the prevalence of intersex "restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female" is about 0.018%.[33]

----------------------

ONE to TWO children born are intersexed...BOTH sex organs or messed up sexually. So, if this is possible, why not being born gay?

I have had a LOT of the pastors I interviewed for my books tell me that they feel people can/are born gay. These people, they say, are EXEMPT from Gods judgement due to this disorder they have. Others say they have no excuse that they can change if they want to, thru Christ.

I do not know really. I DO know that the prejudice and insanity of the church in regards to sexuality in general is disturbing....as is the paranoia, judegment and HATRED of gays. None of which is biblical. Some Jesus freaks want to kill and stone all gays. LOL...but how many of them ar closet gays, pervs or perhaps closet gays in their church..sitting RIGHT next to them.

Funny, the same "Christian" people who are condemning gays or discrediting them....in hatred and predjudice...are having affairs, ripping people off and lying for corrupt politicans that are ruining the country and world.

Imagine that....

[Howlin' Wolf]

I have had a LOT of the pastors I interviewed for my books tell me that they feel people can/are born gay. These people, they say, are EXEMPT from Gods judgement due to this disorder they have. Others say they have no excuse that they can change if they want to, thru Christ.


These pastors that say they are exempt should be fired on the spot. Nobody is exempt from sin! We are all created with a sin nature and are all bound by God's law and his judgement. Homosexuality is not a disorder. Its a sin.

Homosexuals that turn to Christ will be saved. Will they be cured? Who's to say? Sin isnt something you are ever "cured" of. The sins of my past still haunt me today and lead to new sins. My struggles are no different than theirs.

[Jason]

These pastors that say they are exempt should be fired on the spot. Nobody is exempt from sin! We are all created with a sin nature and are all bound by God's law and his judgement. Homosexuality is not a disorder. Its a sin.

Homosexuals that turn to Christ will be saved. Will they be cured? Who's to say? Sin isnt something you are ever "cured" of. The sins of my past still haunt me today and lead to new sins. My struggles are no different than theirs.

I think they mean those born with both genders are exempt.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I think they mean those born with both genders are exempt.

Nobody is exempt.


Matthew 9:12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

[rossid]

These pastors that say they are exempt should be fired on the spot. Nobody is exempt from sin! We are all created with a sin nature and are all bound by God's law and his judgement. Homosexuality is not a disorder. Its a sin.

Homosexuals that turn to Christ will be saved. Will they be cured? Who's to say? Sin isnt something you are ever "cured" of. The sins of my past still haunt me today and lead to new sins. My struggles are no different than theirs.

I was appalled to read such a thing - exempting someone from the judgment (my word) of sin.

I think they mean those born with both genders are exempt.

I'll wait for T to comment but that still doesn't change things. I'm not exempt as a heterosexual, someone who is born/becomes gay is not exempt, yada yada yada(meaning just pick a sin: theft, adultery, etc.).

ALL are subject to judgment.

Ed: thank you for a verse T and there are probably others too.

[Evanescence]

I think they mean those born with both genders are exempt.

No..those BORN GAY are exempt...in their eyes. Now, this wasn't ALL of them...but a small percentage that talked to me about current issues in the church.

Are Intersexed people exempt?

[Jesuslove]

Offensive post, JL, for several reasons. For one thing, you are discounting the fact that many people come to their conclusions about whether or not something is a sin for the wrong reasons (vested interest). In fact, I came about mine because I studied the Word. I would not counter your post if you had also done some study and come to a different conclusion. But your post quoted above (as well as several others of yours) indicates that you believe that those who agree with you are informed, and those who do not agree with you are forming their opinions for the wrong reasons. And that is completely uncalled for.

Ironically, this position of yours is exactly the opposite of what you say regarding divorce and remarriage. On that topic, you say: "The bible says this is sin, and the fact that so many Christians ignore this directive and go ahead and do it, and pretend there's nothing wrong with it, is doing damage to the Church." (My paraphrase, but I think it's a fair representation of your views on that subject).

So I want to make sure I get this straight: If the bible says something is sin, you value the Word of God over the experiences and opinions of people, if the subject is divorce and remarriage, but if the topic is homosexuality, and all other criteria are the same, then you value the opinions and experiences of people over what the Word says. Is that correct?

I would advise not to put words in my mouth. I find it offensive. If you read my opinions, you would know my thoughts on homosexuality, and divorce.

[Jason]

No..those BORN GAY are exempt...in their eyes. Now, this wasn't ALL of them...but a small percentage that talked to me about current issues in the church.




Then I definitely agree with Jason. Those pastors should be fired.

[Jesuslove]

----------------------

ONE to TWO children born are intersexed...BOTH sex organs or messed up sexually. So, if this is possible, why not being born gay?

I have had a LOT of the pastors I interviewed for my books tell me that they feel people can/are born gay. These people, they say, are EXEMPT from Gods judgement due to this disorder they have. Others say they have no excuse that they can change if they want to, thru Christ.

I do not know really. I DO know that the prejudice and insanity of the church in regards to sexuality in general is disturbing....as is the paranoia, judegment and HATRED of gays. None of which is biblical. Some Jesus freaks want to kill and stone all gays. LOL...but how many of them ar closet gays, pervs or perhaps closet gays in their church..sitting RIGHT next to them.

Funny, the same "Christian" people who are condemning gays or discrediting them....in hatred and predjudice...are having affairs, ripping people off and lying for corrupt politicans that are ruining the country and world.

Imagine that....

Amen Ev. You really get what I'm trying to say, and you say it so much more eloquently than me. If we Christians spent half the time embracing gays rather than judging them, I think the world would be a better place.

[middletree]

I would advise not to put words in my mouth.
Practice what you preach.

[Valpo]

Hmmm...the sound of silence with this one. Lets go to Wikipedia for a look-see...



I've been out for the evening E. Sorry I didn't rush to my internet access on my phone to see JL's or anyone else's response to me. Give me a break. And then the natural scholarly thing to do is consult wikipedia, right.

Again, being born deformed is irrelevant. We are born deformed because of sin. Being deformed was not the original creation intent of God. It may not be due to their own personal sin that they have both sex organs or any other disorder, but it is certainly due to "sin" in general, that they were born that way.

tough issue though no doubt....can't just point and yell "freak!" got to deal with them the same way. Here's the Law it shows you your sin, here is the Gospel which absolves you of it. Go in peace and serve the Lord, and sin no more.

[middletree]

Funny, the same "Christian" people who are condemning gays or discrediting them....in hatred and predjudice...are having affairs, ripping people off and lying for corrupt politicans that are ruining the country and world.
Yep. There are a lot of people doing that. One was very public about a year or two ago. However, the tone I am getting from you and JL is that all who regard this behavior as sin are "condemning" gays with hatred and prejudice. In fact, it's just the opposite. We want to stop the false pervasive mindset that gay sex is normal and not sinful, because we care for gays, because we want them to know that there is a better way: to live as Jesus has called us to live. Where you see this as hatred, it is in fact, the most loving thing anyone can say to them.

[middletree]

Again, being born deformed is irrelevant. We are born deformed because of sin. Being deformed was not the original creation intent of God. It may not be due to their own personal sin that they have both sex organs or any other disorder, but it is certainly due to "sin" in general, that they were born that way.


I gave two scriptural examples to back this up, V, yet it was ignored, except when E said that Scripture cannot prove anything. Amazing statement.

[Jason]

I gave two scriptural examples to back this up, V, yet it was ignored, except when E said that Scripture cannot prove anything. Amazing statement.

Once we start discounting Scripture, we're on a very slippery slope.

[Valpo]

I gave two scriptural examples to back this up, V, yet it was ignored, except when E said that Scripture cannot prove anything. Amazing statement.

well this has been my point throughout the thread that calling a spade a spade, or a sinner a sinner, is "offensive." what i "feel" and what the world tells me is more important than the Word of God.

[Howlin' Wolf]

No..those BORN GAY are exempt...in their eyes. Now, this wasn't ALL of them...but a small percentage that talked to me about current issues in the church.

Are Intersexed people exempt?

nobody is exempt!
Nobody is without excuse!

[Evanescence]

Some good points ya'll.....some condemn out of love, some out of hate. From what I see often from the Evangelical Conservatives is hatred on a level of insanity. Not good.

I must address this though:

Again, being born deformed is irrelevant. We are born deformed because of sin. Being deformed was not the original creation intent of God. It may not be due to their own personal sin that they have both sex organs or any other disorder, but it is certainly due to "sin" in general, that they were born that way.


So i don't go off half-cocked here....how do you mean? You saying a baby deserves to be born deformed or gay because of its sin? babies are born sinless...but have a sin nature. There's a difference. And I think the bible is clear on that.

And no I'm not going to dig up scripture to back it up. Anyone can dig up some obscure Bible verse to prove their point or agenda.

The Bible doesn't PROVE why people are gay....just that its sin. It also doesn't talk about intersex people...which again, no one has truly addressed. Further, how do we determine what homosuxality is? Whos definition do we go by? Yours? Mine?

Really, I'm not being difficult but I could list 5-8 instances that are very GREY about homosexuality.....and we'd have to debate if it is gay or not. There's just so many variables and instances with human sexuality....so many opinions as well. Opinions that people CAN use scripture to back.

Trust me, I worked with unltra-conservative, ultra-plain Mennonites....they'd think we're all going to hell just for having Internet. And could 'prove" it in the Bible....

or could they? LOL...

[Evanescence]

nobody is exempt!
Nobody is without excuse!

But WHO are they...they have 2 sex organs?

[Jason]

Condemn out of love? Huh?

And Romans 1 says why people are gay.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Nobody is exempt.


Matthew 9:12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

ahem!

[Howlin' Wolf]

But WHO are they...they have 2 sex organs?


they're people! what do you mean "who are they?"

[middletree]

You can joke about the "prove" thing and make remarks about "obscure" verses al you want. I gave two examples of very well-known instances, but that's not even my point. My problem is that you aren't looking to Scripture for answers first, and you're being snarky toward those who do.

Scripture is God's word. His opinion. His input. Why in the world would you not rely on it for answers? Why would you not think of it as something that could be used to prove something? How could you not want the opinion of the wisest, smartest being in the Universe?

By the way, I would like a simple, straight answer from you and Jesuslove for one basic question. Putting all other factors (such as being born gay) aside, do you believe that gay sex (the behavior, not "being gay") is sin?

Yes or no?

[Valpo]

can't have it both ways E. if humans are born with what you define as a sin nature, they cannot be sinless.

We have a thread(s) on that topic, BVC represents a side saying we have no sin nature, and I and some others say the opposite. Might be worth a read.

Sin is sin. Just because people aren't hurting anyone else or themselves does not remove it from being sin. Sin is anything that defies God. God created them "male and female." Jesus affirms this. Nothing grey or vague about that. A male or female having homosexual desires is sinful. Just like the heterosexual who has lustful desires in his or her heart. Sin is sin.

[Jason]

And, John, none of the posters in this thread (me, middletree, Tulip, Debbie, Valpo, etc.) condemn gays. We're trying to point out a forgotten fact ... that homosexual sex is a sin. Why do Christians seem to harp on this? Because, unlike other sins such as murder and theft, homosexuality as a sin is disputed by many people. As Tulip showed, we all have sinned. My sins are just as big as anyone else's. That's why I need God's grace.

[Valpo]

And, John, none of the posters in this thread (me, middletree, Tulip, Debbie, Valpo, etc.) condemn gays. We're trying to point out a forgotten fact ... that homosexual sex is a sin. Why do Christians seem to harp on this? Because, unlike other sins such as murder and theft, homosexuality as a sin is disputed by many people. As Tulip showed, we all have sinned. My sins are just as big as anyone else's. That's why I need God's grace.

I'll go one further, start a thread on heterosexual lust, and other things and i'll be in there calling it out for what it is as well

[Jason]

I'll go one further, start a thread on heterosexual lust, and other things and i'll be in there calling it out for what it is as well

Sin.

[Evanescence]

they're people! what do you mean "who are they?"

yes people..but what sex?

male or female?

Jason, does the Bible explain what a Euenick is?

Isn't that a hairy creature in Star Wars?

[Evanescence]

And, John, none of the posters in this thread (me, middletree, Tulip, Debbie, Valpo, etc.) condemn gays. We're trying to point out a forgotten fact ... that homosexual sex is a sin. Why do Christians seem to harp on this? Because, unlike other sins such as murder and theft, homosexuality as a sin is disputed by many people. As Tulip showed, we all have sinned. My sins are just as big as anyone else's. That's why I need God's grace.

Sorry I do not believe you. Not because I think you are lying...but because I don't know your heart..and never will. And you don't know anyone elses on here either...

We as Christians often assume too much....

[Jason]

Sorry I do not believe you. Not because I think you are lying...but because I don't know your heart..and never will. And you don't know anyone elses on here either...

We as Christians often assume too much....

So you'd rather assume the worst?

[Evanescence]

You can joke about the "prove" thing and make remarks about "obscure" verses al you want. I gave two examples of very well-known instances, but that's not even my point. My problem is that you aren't looking to Scripture for answers first, and you're being snarky toward those who do.

Scripture is God's word. His opinion. His input. Why in the world would you not rely on it for answers? Why would you not think of it as something that could be used to prove something? How could you not want the opinion of the wisest, smartest being in the Universe?

By the way, I would like a simple, straight answer from you and Jesuslove for one basic question. Putting all other factors (such as being born gay) aside, do you believe that gay sex (the behavior, not "being gay") is sin?

Yes or no?

Because its not a cut/dried issue...there is no black and whites with God. Thats what too many Chrisitans fail to see...and I think its SO prevelant and obvious in the Gospels. The legalisitic Pharisees saw everything in black/white...but Jesus tried to show them. They killed him. Jesus came to fill in these grey areas...to judge man according to the variables of life and NOT by the law. God KNOWS mans heart...man does not even know his own heart...he lies to himself. God knows why eahc and everyone does what they do..and judges fairly.

Do I believe homosexuality is a sin?

It needs to be defined first...then each instance will be judged by God. its not an easy topic to simply put a finger on it. Its a victimless crime that may or may not offend God depending on the circumstance. Its way to complex to decode and judge. Its a MEDICAL issue and we're not doctors....and the Bible isn't a medical book.

Believing that homosexuality is or is not a sin, is not a requirment for salvation....and thats all I am concerned about.

[Evanescence]

So you'd rather assume the worst?

No, I'm a realist...with a lifetime of dealing with Chrisitans and the church. Further, i deal with people and have been betrayed by every kind of person from Pastors to my ex-wife to my own mother. People are not perfect...myself included and I won't assume to know someone's heart...even if they tell me.

People are prejudice....hateful. Myself included soemtimes...

[Jason]

Well, I'm not lying and thanks for the lack of trust.

[Evanescence]

Well, I'm not lying and thanks for the lack of trust.

Trust? Dude, we don't even know each other....I don't know any of you guys...or you guys me.

You want me to trust you becuase we're all Christians? THAT is dishonest....and I won't do it. None of us are perfect...and thats a FACT.

[Valpo]

in one breath he says he doesn't know our heart, then makes a judgment/assumption about our beliefs

[Valpo]

God is very black and white E. You just said Jesus came to fill in grey areas, doesn't that nullify the "greyness?"

John 14:6

as black and white as it gets. if you want to go nowhere fast, keep followin the ways of the world. where only grey exists. where only insecurity exists. where only relative morale exists. where only "what's true for you isn't for me" exists. I'll stick to the word's of the Word of God and congregate on that holy hill where he saved me and the church from her sins, including the ones we discuss here. But to ignore that we sin, and to live unrepentant is to defy God. "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound? By no means!"

[Evanescence]

God is very black and white E. You just said Jesus came to fill in grey areas, doesn't that nullify the "greyness?"

John 14:6

as black and white as it gets. if you want to go nowhere fast, keep followin the ways of the world. where only grey exists. where only insecurity exists. where only relative morale exists. where only "what's true for you isn't for me" exists. I'll stick to the word's of the Word of God and congregate on that holy hill where he saved me and the church from her sins, including the ones we discuss here. But to ignore that we sin, and to live unrepentant is to defy God. "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound? By no means!"

Everyone of us is guilty of what you just describe...thats why there are over 2000 different Denoms in Christianity.....

Spend some time with some radical fundamentalist Christians and you'll see what I mean. They'll have you doing all kinds of crazy stuff....thinking you're going to hell and what-not. All taken right from the very Bible you often quote.

I have my own sin to worry about rather than spend my time pointing out others, esp when I don't know their heart. Unless of course its a politician...

:cool:

[Jesuslove]

Practice what you preach.

Where specifically have I put words in your mouth?

[middletree]

SOME Christians have such a vested interest in believing people are not born gay, that they will never consider the possibility of what gays have told us for years, that people are born gay

In this post, you are telling E what our motives are, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Jesuslove]

And, John, none of the posters in this thread (me, middletree, Tulip, Debbie, Valpo, etc.) condemn gays. We're trying to point out a forgotten fact ... that homosexual sex is a sin. Why do Christians seem to harp on this? Because, unlike other sins such as murder and theft, homosexuality as a sin is disputed by many people. As Tulip showed, we all have sinned. My sins are just as big as anyone else's. That's why I need God's grace.

What I'm trying to say is this... .murdrer is a crime. pedophilia is a crime. rape is a crime.

whether a choice or not, homosexual sexual activity is a sin. divorce/remarriage is a sin and that's a conscious choice. Infidelity is a sin. My issue all along is why do Christians single out homosexuality and want to legislate against it, where I have yet to hear Christians en masse, or American Christian leaders speaking out in public wanting to strengthen divorce laws or criminalize infidelity. I find it a bit unusual, maybe even homophobic that gays are singled out among this group.

[Jesuslove]

Because its not a cut/dried issue...there is no black and whites with God. Thats what too many Chrisitans fail to see...and I think its SO prevelant and obvious in the Gospels. The legalisitic Pharisees saw everything in black/white...but Jesus tried to show them. They killed him. Jesus came to fill in these grey areas...to judge man according to the variables of life and NOT by the law. God KNOWS mans heart...man does not even know his own heart...he lies to himself. God knows why eahc and everyone does what they do..and judges fairly.

Do I believe homosexuality is a sin?

It needs to be defined first...then each instance will be judged by God. its not an easy topic to simply put a finger on it. Its a victimless crime that may or may not offend God depending on the circumstance. Its way to complex to decode and judge. Its a MEDICAL issue and we're not doctors....and the Bible isn't a medical book.

Believing that homosexuality is or is not a sin, is not a requirment for salvation....and thats all I am concerned about.

I agree wtih Ev. It is not a simple issue. While most agree the physical act of sex would be considered a sin, I don't believe a self-defined homosexual is a sinner just by being homosexual. I know Christians that struggle with homosexuality. Are they condemned if they are celibate? I see it as Ev sees it. There is much more of a gray area here. I believe in the Bible. I also believe God gave us wisdom and knowledge so that we can make informed decisions. There are things in the Bible that many Christians challenge today: whether it be divorce/remarriage, tattoos, eating shellfish, etc. I just think Christians have used homosexuality as their pet cause because it's safer than alienating divorcees or adulterers.

One other thing. I am a Catholic. The Catholic Church does not consider homoexuality a sin. It considers the sex act a sin. And I know the Catholic Church isn't the onlly mainstream church to think this way.

[Jesuslove]

Everyone of us is guilty of what you just describe...thats why there are over 2000 different Denoms in Christianity.....

Spend some time with some radical fundamentalist Christians and you'll see what I mean. They'll have you doing all kinds of crazy stuff....thinking you're going to hell and what-not. All taken right from the very Bible you often quote.

I have my own sin to worry about rather than spend my time pointing out others, esp when I don't know their heart. Unless of course its a politician...

:cool:

I agree Ev. I try not to judge people. I worry about myself too much to worry about others. I try not to make judgements about what God thinks. Why not led God do the judging and worry about ourselves. I think the world would be a better place.

[rossid]

Okay I'd like to talk about the sexuality thing. God gave us sex. Sex is not a sin. Gay/adulterous/bestial sex is a sin.

Now I'll just mess around with this thread..

I would advise not to put words in my mouth. I find it offensive. If you read my opinions, you would know my thoughts on homosexuality, and divorce.

Do not put words in my mouth.

Amen Ev. You really get what I'm trying to say, and you say it so much more eloquently than me. If we Christians spent half the time embracing gays rather than judging them, I think the world would be a better place.

Put words in my mouth.

HUH???

Yep. There are a lot of people doing that. One was very public about a year or two ago. However, the tone I am getting from you and JL is that all who regard this behavior as sin are "condemning" gays with hatred and prejudice. In fact, it's just the opposite. We want to stop the false pervasive mindset that gay sex is normal and not sinful, because we care for gays, because we want them to know that there is a better way: to live as Jesus has called us to live. Where you see this as hatred, it is in fact, the most loving thing anyone can say to them.

The word God has given me is "love" in the last year or so. My best friend at work is gay. To condemn him is not showing Jesus love. Now telling him the truth, WHEN the Holy Spirit says "hey Doriano you need to say such and such", needs to still be done in love. This comes from someone very strongly pro-heterosexual. I love to use pro- for my view points and anti-(life for example) for those I disagree with.

I'll go one further, start a thread on heterosexual lust, and other things and i'll be in there calling it out for what it is as well

I'll jump on that through sinful experiences.

Well, I'm not lying and thanks for the lack of trust.

I trust you. :P


Have a good week brothers.

[in hiding]

My issue all along is why do Christians single out homosexuality and want to legislate against it, where I have yet to hear Christians en masse, or American Christian leaders speaking out in public wanting to strengthen divorce laws or criminalize infidelity. I find it a bit unusual, maybe even homophobic that gays are singled out among this group.

It's much easier to point out homosexuality and abortion as major sins and they [the sins] are very easy targets b/c, most people don't struggle with those temptations (homosexual tendancies / ending a pregnancy). Everyone in a relationship has had a fight and had the thought to quit or cheat on that relationship (even if just for a second)...thankfully and Lord willing those 2 things don't happen often, but it's easier to empathize with someone who's going through marital strife than it is to empathize with someone struggling with homosexuality (b/c it's not nearly as common). So it's much easier to dismiss homosexuality and not feel like you're being hypocritical.

[middletree]

I agree Ev. I try not to judge people. .
The heck you don't. You judge Republicans, you judge several people here who post disagreements with your views....

[middletree]

It's much easier to point out homosexuality and abortion as major sins and they [the sins] are very easy targets

Nobody here said that homosexuality is a greater sin than the other things listed. That's what you and JL aren't getting.

[Jesuslove]

The heck you don't. You judge Republicans, you judge several people here who post disagreements with your views....

Please enlighten me. If I judge those who voted for GWB, it's because after 4 years, they put him back in office and he has significantly damagaed our nation. And I wouldn't say I judge them, as much as I am angry at them for this horrible mistake.

[Jesuslove]

Nobody here said that homosexuality is a greater sin than the other things listed. That's what you and JL aren't getting.

Maybe you're missing what I'm saying Middle. I'm saying why do we try to pass legislation against homosexuality when we don't attempt to pass legisltation against divorce or infidelity. Seems like aa double standard to me.

[middletree]

Maybe you're missing what I'm saying Middle. I'm saying why do we try to pass legislation against homosexuality when we don't attempt to pass legisltation against divorce or infidelity. Seems like aa double standard to me.

It's just the opposite. Homosexuality was always illegal, and our Supreme Court struck down all anti-sodomy laws in 2005.

[Jesuslove]

It's just the opposite. Homosexuality was always illegal, and our Supreme Court struck down all anti-sodomy laws in 2005.

If I'm not mistaken, homosexuals don't have a monopoly on sodomy. Both heterosexuals and homosexuals were arrested for sodomy. And the case that caused the sodomy laws to be overturned was really a bit extreme. The case was based on individuals who were engaging in sodomy in the privacy of their own home. The police broke into their home and arrested them after a neighbor called the police on a false allegation. If the police were to do this to heterosexual couples, I would suspeect well over 50% of American couples would be found guilty of sodomy (both varieties).

[middletree]

If I'm not mistaken, homosexuals don't have a monopoly on sodomy. Both heterosexuals and homosexuals were arrested for sodomy.

Then why did the various pro-gay organizations laud the SC decision? The specific case involved two men arrested for having sex in Houston. But that's beside the point. Your post made it sound as if there's this new effort to pass laws against homosexual behavior, when the reality is that there is more freedom to be gay in our culture than at any time in our nation's history.

[Debbie]

One other thought, why would someone choose to be gay? What's so glamorous about the gay lifestyle? I say nothing. When teenagers come out, they are often rejected by their families, friends, churches, and even society. They are treated as second class citizens, and they are looked down upon by people throughout the world.
Why do people choose to be dope addicts, drunks, thieves or prostitutes? Families react the way they do out of desperation, anger, embarrassment, tough love. It doesn't change the reality, these people are loved. It hurts others to watch as they hurt themselves.

Shame on the church that rejects them. But if a church rejected them, they wouldn't find what they needed there anyway. If you are seeking freedom from your sin, but have found a church that accepts it, again, you are in the wrong place. If you find a church that accepts you, knows your sin and wants to help you find the freedom, you have arrived in the right place.



In Nazi Germany, they were murdered alongside the Jews. Why in the world would someone choose this? This isn't glamorous, it's painful.

What do these war crimes have to do with God's judgement other than Hitler's own judgement? I see no comparison or relevance here.


The only thing I can think of is it is really inbred. Some do change, but some don't. In my lifetime, I know more people that were heterosexual (I think due to societal pressures) and later were homosexual, than people that were homosexual who later became heterosexual. I believe what Ev says... some are born gay, some are not.
I'm beginning to think that you and E are having a hayday thinking others may sqwirm at some of your comments.

As for the theory of Demons, Ev hit the nail on the head. SOME Christians pull out the Joker card (Demons) when they can't locially explain why something occurs. It's easy to pull out the demon card. A logical person can't challenge the demon card.

One person agrees with your stance here and you completely ignore all of the other biblical justice given :confused:

Tell me again, your motives are what??

As for how we are born, we are all born with imperfections. Some are born blind, some are born handicapped. Why is it such a foreign concept that some could be born gay?

Being blind or handicapped is not a sin and is something for which you can be healed. As for the latter, your cure is forgiveness and to turn from your sin. Now I will just add, it is rediculous to even compare the "imperfections" you called them.

[Jesuslove]

Then why did the various pro-gay organizations laud the SC decision? The specific case involved two men arrested for having sex in Houston. But that's beside the point. Your post made it sound as if there's this new effort to pass laws against homosexual behavior, when the reality is that there is more freedom to be gay in our culture than at any time in our nation's history.

Don't you agree that if sodomy was a crime, the majority of hetersexual Americans would be guilty?

[Evanescence]

Questions:

1. Are people born with mental disorders held accountable for their actions?

2. Are people who are born with BOTH sex organs, who still have them at a later age...say age 18-20, that experiment with BOTH sexes...trying to find out who/what they are...are they held accountable for their "homosexual" actions".

3. If someone falls terribly ill and then becomes abusive or difficult, making life hell for their loved ones, they held accountable.

4. If someone gets seriously hurt or traumatized thus having brain damage or serious mental problems....they held accountable for their actions?

5. If a child is born with the inherit nature of its father....a chronic anger problem and grows up angry and very short fused, are they held accountable for thier actions, even as an adult?

6. Is a person who is born gay thru a genetic and/or chemical mistake or problem in thier body which repels any attraction to the oppsite sex...a clear almost allergic reaction to the opposite sex, a repulsive response....are they held accountable for following what they know and are programmed with? Being gay?

Just some tough questions.....I'm not saying how I feel about each. Just want to see where everyone stands. Personally, I do not know how to answer each of the above.

[Jesuslove]

What do these war crimes have to do with God's judgement other than Hitler's own judgement? I see no comparison or relevance here.
I think if you have a moment to read back through the thread, you will understand where I was coming from and why it was relevant to the discussion.


I'm beginning to think that you and E are having a hayday thinking others may sqwirm at some of your comments.
Nah Debbie, I'm not here to push buttons. I'm here to discuss issues.


Tell me again, your motives are what??

to discuss issues.

Being blind or handicapped is not a sin and is something for which you can be healed. As for the latter, your cure is forgiveness and to turn from your sin. Now I will just add, it is rediculous to even compare the "imperfections" you called them.
I think it's relevant and not ridiculous. We are talking about people's inperfections. Let's face it, we are all imperfect in some ways.

[danbos]

I think it's relevant and not ridiculous. We are talking about people's inperfections. Let's face it, we are all imperfect in some ways.

You are right, we are all imperfect in some ways, but that doesn't mean we don't have to struggle with those imperfections if they cause us to sin.

I agree with Debbie, there's a huge difference in being born blind and being born gay. Being blind is not a sin, being gay is.

I was born with a tendency to lose my temper fairly quickly...does that mean my anger is justified, just because I was born that way? Of course not, I still have to struggle to control my temper. Just because someone is born gay doesn't mean God is going to just overlook that somehow. It's all a result of the fall, we are all born with sinful tendencies. And we all have to struggle with different sins. And my sins are no less than someone who struggles with being gay. And God forgives our sins when we are repentant and try to put them behind us.

[middletree]

Don't you agree that if sodomy was a crime, the majority of hetersexual Americans would be guilty?

Um, no. I don't want to be graphic, but perhaps you and I have different definitions of what that word means. Let's just move on. This is a serious sidetrack to what I said, and I'll say it again: There is no effort to legislate against being gay. It is now more legal to be gay and to engage in practices common to gay people than ever before in the history of the US.

[middletree]

Questions:

1. Are people born with mental disorders held accountable for their actions?


Probably. In Romans when says God gave them over to their lusts, the way I read it is that they kind of went out of their minds.

2. Are people who are born with BOTH sex organs, who still have them at a later age...say age 18-20, that experiment with BOTH sexes...trying to find out who/what they are...are they held accountable for their "homosexual" actions".

Fine. You win. For the .000000000000001 % if people who are in this condition, God will grant immunity. What this has to do with the truth about the sin of homosexuality for those 99.999999999999% who actually have the correct set of organs, I don't know. But way to twist the small minority of incidents to win an argument that doesn't address the real issue.



5. If a child is born with the inherit nature of its father....a chronic anger problem and grows up angry and very short fused, are they held accountable for thier actions, even as an adult?

Absolutely.


6. Is a person who is born gay thru a genetic and/or chemical mistake or problem in thier body w

Since there has never, ever, been a single bit of proof that people are born gay, why do you keep bringing this up?

[Evanescence]

I was born with a tendency to lose my temper fairly quickly...does that mean my anger is justified, just because I was born that way? Of course not, I still have to struggle to control my temper.

But, Dan are you sure you are under the same judgement as others?

Could it be that God is so just and righteous that he judges according to each persons situation? I'm assuming hotheaded people run in your family?

I've seen this in children....kids at age 5-6 with BAD tempers...just like their fathers. Once they are of age, are they under the same judgement as others?

I do not know...but I have my doubts. God will judge each person according to their situation and circumstance. I think there's biblical evidence for that....but I'm not going hunting for it, just so someone can try to trump it with soemthing else...

[Evanescence]

It's much easier to point out homosexuality and abortion as major sins and they [the sins] are very easy targets b/c, most people don't struggle with those temptations (homosexual tendancies / ending a pregnancy). Everyone in a relationship has had a fight and had the thought to quit or cheat on that relationship (even if just for a second)...thankfully and Lord willing those 2 things don't happen often, but it's easier to empathize with someone who's going through marital strife than it is to empathize with someone struggling with homosexuality (b/c it's not nearly as common). So it's much easier to dismiss homosexuality and not feel like you're being hypocritical.

I agree with this...

[Evanescence]

I know you wanted to move on tree, but I'd really question this one...

Um, no. I don't want to be graphic, but perhaps you and I have different definitions of what that word means.

Yes, the majority of hetoro's would be locked up....the definition of sodomy makes just about every person who has sex guilty of it.

[Evanescence]

Fine. You win. For the .000000000000001 % if people who are in this condition, God will grant immunity. What this has to do with the truth about the sin of homosexuality for those 99.999999999999% who actually have the correct set of organs, I don't know. But way to twist the small minority of incidents to win an argument that doesn't address the real issue.


Wrong. THEY win...and its not the number you said....its 1 out of 100 or more...its like 1.7%

Thats 10 out of 1000

or 100 out of 10,000

A LOT....

I'm not twisting anything or even arguing...just asking all of us, myself included tough questions. I'm not convinced either way....just trying to look at the BIG picture...

[Debbie]

Sorry I do not believe you. Not because I think you are lying...but because I don't know your heart..and never will. And you don't know anyone elses on here either...

We as Christians often assume too much....

Sorry, I don't believe you. Not because I do or don't know your heart, it is because you are wrong in your own assumptions. What else could they be? You have not provided any proof from the Word.


I find it hard to believe that God would create someone Gay and then condemn them for it. Why would God force someone to change their natural urges....if its natural for them.

Your statement from 02/07/2006. Your own question should be the answer for you. God wouldn't. If you fall to your own sin, you've only doomed yourself. God doesn't force you into you your own "unnatural" urges, Satan, you, your flesh does that. You need God for freedom from it.

If you think you can go through this life with a preconceived notion that when your judgement comes you can ask God all the questions: Lord, what did you mean in Proverbs 3:5-6, or, 1 Corinthians 7, or, it just wasn't clear Lord, I didn't understand what you meant, your wrong. You have heard the truth.

[Evanescence]

Probably. In Romans when says God gave them over to their lusts, the way I read it is that they kind of went out of their minds.


I wasn't necessarily talking about sexual issues....but you're saying the mentally challenged are held accountable for their actions....all sins, even though they wear a diaper and can't tie their own shoe?

They're born messed up....so will God have the same judgement on them as someone normal?

[Evanescence]

Your statement from 02/07/2006. Your own question should be the answer for you. God wouldn't. If you fall to your own sin, you've only doomed yourself. God doesn't force you into you your own "unnatural" urges, Satan, you, your flesh does that. You need God for freedom from it.

If you think you can go through this life with a preconceived notion that when your judgement comes you can ask God all the questions: Lord, what did you mean in Proverbs 3:5-6, or, 1 Corinthians 7, or, it just wasn't clear Lord, I didn't understand what you meant, your wrong. You have heard the truth.


You are right..there is no 100% proof that people are born gay...just their testimony and a few studies that are really vague.

No, I won't be asking GOD any tough questions...but he will judge accordingly. I have only heard the truth if I have READ and understood the truth. The Bible is clear that we will be judged according to the light given/absorbed. Just cause we have the Bible does mean conviction and access to it doesn't come into play. If that were the case, we'd all be doomed...

Esp us sinners on the Internet and becasue we watch TV... :P

But, the real question is: Can science and the Bible get along? If science proves 1000% that people can be born gay, will the church accept it?

Would make a great novel...

A scientist is silenced after he proves people can be born gay, by a secret religious organization.

[Debbie]

I think if you have a moment to read back through the thread, you will understand where I was coming from and why it was relevant to the discussion.

It is not as though we have never had these same discussions here before, regardless of how you title them



I think it's relevant and not ridiculous. We are talking about people's inperfections. Let's face it, we are all imperfect in some ways.

You are only giving an account to the one who agrees with you. For the ones whom don't agree, you are desparately pulling tricks out of the hat for justification.....The blind and the handicapped. There is no comparison to physical impairments and sin. The insinuation is totally wrong.

[Evanescence]

It is not as though we have never had these same discussions here before, regardless of how you title them





You are only giving an account to the one who agrees with you. For the ones whom don't agree, you are desparately pulling tricks out of the hat for justification.....The blind and the handicapped. There is no comparison to physical impairments and sin. The insinuation is totally wrong.

I agree that the blind and the handicapped is an absurd comparison...it really is.

But, the ones I posted.....must raise some questions....

[Debbie]

I agree that the blind and the handicapped is an absurd comparison...it really is.

But, the ones I posted.....must raise some questions....

I don't raise much question with your Q#2.

The question is, how to choose which is the right gender of your child based upon their internal make-up, then what action to take to lesson the mental difficulty. If nothing else is provided, my first hunch without alot of research is base it upon their childhoold tendencies and if they are growing as a little boy or a little girl, not the gender you want the child to be.

[rossid]

Questions:

1. Are people born with mental disorders held accountable for their actions?
.
.
.
.
.
Just some tough questions.....I'm not saying how I feel about each. Just want to see where everyone stands. Personally, I do not know how to answer each of the above.

For the latter, you are on the button, telling us you do not know the answer. I honestly don't think we all do even though with our human interpretation of scripture we say what we believe the answer may be. The Bible interprets itself, my pastor says, but IMO that does not mean we 'know' answers to all questions. The biblical evidence can be pretty substantial - staying away from any specific 'sin' so as not to continue stirring things up.

For the former, my bipolar may be to blame for our best friend, he would not get treatment and through a terrible circumstance was shot dead by a deputy sheriff. Was this a type of accountability to God? I know this is not the type of disorder you mean - not to put words in someones mouth - it seems you may be talking about disorders where there are consistent horrible actions.

Probably. In Romans when says God gave them over to their lusts, the way I read it is that they kind of went out of their minds.

.
.
.
Since there has never, ever, been a single bit of proof that people are born gay, why do you keep bringing this up?

This also answers question one in what I think the question was intended to mean. Folks with mental disorders that went 'out of their mind' and I have to say my friend, at that moment was out of his mind. I said those exact words at least a dozen times when talking about what happened.

No proof for gay disposition for birth that I've seen either.



So there is judgment/accountability for ALL people IMO.

[middletree]

I wasn't necessarily talking about sexual issues....but you're saying the mentally challenged are held accountable for their actions....all sins, even though they wear a diaper and can't tie their own shoe?

They're born messed up....so will God have the same judgement on them as someone normal?

I didn't say that at all. Your original question didn't say anything about diapers or mentally challenged. I took your question to mean someone who's mentally ill, like Charles Manson.

[Jesuslove]

Probably. In Romans when says God gave them over to their lusts, the way I read it is that they kind of went out of their minds.



Fine. You win. For the .000000000000001 % if people who are in this condition, God will grant immunity. What this has to do with the truth about the sin of homosexuality for those 99.999999999999% who actually have the correct set of organs, I don't know. But way to twist the small minority of incidents to win an argument that doesn't address the real issue.




Absolutely.




Since there has never, ever, been a single bit of proof that people are born gay, why do you keep bringing this up?

One could make the same arguement. There is no proof people are born heterosexual. But heterosexuality comes naturally to the majority of all people, but not all.

As for the definition of sodomy, check Merriam-Webster dictionary online. A definition is a definition. It is what it is.

[Jesuslove]

It is not as though we have never had these same discussions here before, regardless of how you title them





You are only giving an account to the one who agrees with you. For the ones whom don't agree, you are desparately pulling tricks out of the hat for justification.....The blind and the handicapped. There is no comparison to physical impairments and sin. The insinuation is totally wrong.

I disagree with you Debbie. And "tricks" isn't a fair description of what I'm saying. Please play fair, I am. It doesn't matter if ONE agrees with me or all agree with me, I am entitled to my opinion. You can't prove to me heterosexuals are born that way any more than I can prove homosexuals are born that way. I'm just saying look at science. God gave us science to learn new things, new treatment for diseases, new cures, new discoveries. You have to admit, we know more about homosexuality today, then we knew about it 1,000 years ago.

Surely we don't adhere to all Biblical principles today. The Bible speaks against tattoos and eating shellfish. Today we don't believe these people aren't condemned for their actions.

[Valpo]

If we rely on God's Word we can surely say people are born heterosexual. "Male and female He created them." Again, Jesus affirmed that account. If we want to continue to ignore this, then JL and E you should just ought to put it out there that you do not value scripture over experience or what people "feel." At least give us that so we know what we're dealing with here.

[middletree]

One could make the same arguement. There is no proof people are born heterosexual. But heterosexuality comes naturally to the majority of all people, but not all.

I'm not sure what your point is. Heterosexual sex within marriage isn't sin. Apples and oranges.

As for the definition of sodomy, check Merriam-Webster dictionary online. A definition is a definition. It is what it is.You bring this up to distract from my point, so I'll say it again: there is no new law against homosexuality, despite your assertions that there is. It is now more legal to be a practicing gay individual than ever before.

[middletree]

Surely we don't adhere to all Biblical principles today. The Bible speaks against tattoos and eating shellfish. Today we don't believe these people aren't condemned for their actions.
Those laws don't apply to us because they never did apply to us (non-Jews). However, homosexual sex was sin before the Law of Moses, and after the Law of Moses (see Romans 1).

What's your point in bringing this up, anyway? You said earlier than you regard gay sex as sin. We agree with that. We also agree that we are to love all those engaged in any sinful activity. So I'm not sure why you bring up the "condemned" thing.

[Jesuslove]

I'm not sure what your point is. Heterosexual sex within marriage isn't sin. Apples and oranges.

You bring this up to distract from my point, so I'll say it again: there is no new law against homosexuality, despite your assertions that there is. It is now more legal to be a practicing gay individual than ever before.

Sodomy is Sodomy. It was a crime whether heterosexual or homosexual. I don't believe marriage wipes away sexual sin. I can give examples if you like.

[middletree]

Sodomy is Sodomy. It was a crime whether heterosexual or homosexual. I don't believe marriage wipes away sexual sin. I can give examples if you like.
That's not the freaking point. You said in an earlier post that homosexuality is being singled out for legislation, and that new laws are being passed to target homosexuals. I called "baloney" on that, because it is now more acceptable, both legally and socially, to be gay than every before in the history of this country.

[Jesuslove]

That's not the freaking point. You said in an earlier post that homosexuality is being singled out for legislation, and that new laws are being passed to target homosexuals. I called "baloney" on that, because it is now more acceptable, both legally and socially, to be gay than every before in the history of this country.

Freaking is a bit harsh middle. Could you show me exactly where I said new laws are targeting homosexuals? I don't recall saying that.

You still won't admit here that sodomy is both a heterosexual and homosexual issue by definition, and that the vast majority of heterosexuals engage in sodomy. Am I right?

[middletree]

Freaking is a bit harsh middle.


Are you serious?

You still won't admit here that sodomy is both a heterosexual and homosexual issue by definition, and that the vast majority of heterosexuals engage in sodomy. Am I right?

I didn't bother to admit it because you were using it to distract from what I was talking about. It was a side issue. You want to play semantics games, go ahead. Such tactics only show that your original argument holds no merit. Fine. By the broad definition of sodomy, many (probably most) heteros would have been breaking the law when such laws existed. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the thing you said that I have been trying to get you to talk about.

Now, can we get back to what you said?

I'm saying why do we try to pass legislation against homosexuality when we don't attempt to pass legisltation against divorce or infidelity. Seems like aa double standard to me.

You said the above. It is completely false. In my short lifetime (43 years), I have seen more anti-gay laws get repealed than I can count. There's the Supreme Court decision, which applied to a case where actual homosexuals were arrested, so don't bring the broad definition of sodomy into it. There's the fact that it used to be that a teacher could be fired simply for being gay. Gays could get refused for hire for being police officers. When such rules were challenged, the courts repeatedly held them up, until the tide turned around 20 years ago. The idea that laws are being made against homosexuality is completely false. I don't know why you want to perpetuate it. I do know that some who spread this lie do so because they like to keep the victim mentality, as they think it helps their cause.

[Evanescence]

If we rely on God's Word we can surely say people are born heterosexual. "Male and female He created them." Again, Jesus affirmed that account. If we want to continue to ignore this, then JL and E you should just ought to put it out there that you do not value scripture over experience or what people "feel." At least give us that so we know what we're dealing with here.

I agree most people are born heterosexual...and the Bible supports that...

It also condemns homosexuality....

That doesn't mean that God doesn't make exceptions to those who MIGHT be born with a disorder....

Yes, I feel there are way too many varibales to make blanket statements based on scripture. I value a persons testimony as much as the Bible....therefore I have serious questions on the subject.

And yes I have issues with the Bibles accuracy on several issues..and how/what/who we are to follow in regards to the writings. I've been open to that.

No need to pray for me...I'm fine.

Belief in Bible accuracy is not a requirement for salvation...neither is having ideas on people being born gay.

The million dollar question is this: Christians that DO NOT believe in people being born gay, what wiill they do IF it is ever proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt. What will they say?

[Jesuslove]

You said the above. It is completely false. In my short lifetime (43 years), I have seen more anti-gay laws get repealed than I can count. There's the Supreme Court decision, which applied to a case where actual homosexuals were arrested, so don't bring the broad definition of sodomy into it. There's the fact that it used to be that a teacher could be fired simply for being gay. Gays could get refused for hire for being police officers. When such rules were challenged, the courts repeatedly held them up, until the tide turned around 20 years ago. The idea that laws are being made against homosexuality is completely false. I don't know why you want to perpetuate it. I do know that some who spread this lie do so because they like to keep the victim mentality, as they think it helps their cause.

You are right. I said what I said. What I meant was different though. What I meant is this. We as a Christian society have tried to ban homosexuals from marrying, adopting, etc. We have tried to place restrictions. Yet we don't try to legislate against other sin,, such as divorce/remarriage and infidelity.

You are also right that laws are favoring gays more and more. I think many people have cried wolf for a long time against homosexuals. For years, many have tried to link pedophilia with homosexuality as a scare tactic to try and discredit homosexuls. Over time, society (people in general) have realized that ones sexual orientation doesn't make one more moral or less moral.

[Jason]

No need to pray for me...I'm fine.


I really wish you'd stop saying this. We all need prayer that we would follow God more closely.

[Evanescence]

I didn't bother to admit it because you were using it to distract from what I was talking about. It was a side issue. You want to play semantics games, go ahead. Such tactics only show that your original argument holds no merit. Fine. By the broad definition of sodomy, many (probably most) heteros would have been breaking the law when such laws existed. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the thing you said that I have been trying to get you to talk about.


I'd like to hit this one last time:

JL is right. if we go by the true meaning of Sodomy, most of us married folk would be guilty of it. Study the history of sex in this country. I have had indepth conversations with old times who have explained how different things were back then, when they were younger. We people today...Christian and non-Christians are practicing sex acts that under the defintion of Sodomy is exactly the same. This applies to most of us, but not all.

I can't go into details but I assure you this is easily proven.

We still didn't define homosexuality either....kinda hard to condemn it, when you don't even know what it is...:eek:

So many questions....:cool:

[Evanescence]

I really wish you'd stop saying this. We all need prayer that we would follow God more closely.

Pray for me if you truly love me as a Christian...but don't if you have an agenda or think your better than me.

Better?

[Evanescence]

For years, many have tried to link pedophilia with homosexuality as a scare tactic to try and discredit homosexuls.

Boy can i ever agree and ID with this...

Some people are SO weak minded...they think if you get anywhere near a homosexual person, they're gonna rape you..or try to have their way etc etc. Ughhh...it so stupid and idiotic.

I have a buddy...one of my best friends.....everytime Is ay i am going to NYC or I might move to Germany or Australia, he comes out with this.....hal-joking, half-serious comment...the same comment about how essentially they gays are gonna rape me.

He REALLY thinks that if you don't live in the country...in small town USA and if you're not a Rep, support the war, support our troops and love Bush....you're immoral.

He thinks there's a PILE of gays in AU waiting to have their way with the unsuspecting.

I love my friend...but that's SO weak minded....

[Debbie]

You can't prove to me heterosexuals are born that way any more than I can prove homosexuals are born that way. I'm just saying look at science.

Absolutely I can:

1 Corinthians 7, the entire chapter
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Etc etc.... No need to list them all, as they as have been listed numerous times through out many discussions.

God gave us science to learn new things, new treatment for diseases, new cures, new discoveries.
Yes he did and it is a wonderful thing. I do not think though he gave us science to toy with his plan in our life or to justify our sins. Even if we have a little gene or a big gene that causes us to enjoy 1 glass of wine or the whole bottle, it is up to each one of us to take accountability for our actions and motives. Regardless of science, you cannot distort the truth and the truth is the Word.



You have to admit, we know more about homosexuality today, then we knew about it 1,000 years ago.

Indeed, since neither of us where here 1,000 years ago. It only truth.

[Jesuslove]

Pray for me if you truly love me as a Christian...but don't if you have an agenda or think your better than me.

Better?

I hear you Ev. I don't know what's in Jason's heart (and I'm not trying to guess at his intent), but when I've heard Christians say to me, "I'm praying for you", I hear them saying,

- you are less than me and I am praying you find your way.
- I feel sorry for you, you are lost.

I would rather we all pray for each other's well being with love, rather than someone find one's way. This is a generalization, not an accusation.

God bless you Jason.... and I mean this with love.

[Evanescence]

Absolutely I can:

1 Corinthians 7, the entire chapter
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Etc etc.... No need to list them all, as they as have been listed numerous times through out many discussions.



Please explain how this PROVES anything....

[Debbie]

I hear you Ev. I don't know what's in Jason's heart (and I'm not trying to guess at his intent), but when I've heard Christians say to me, "I'm praying for you", I hear them saying,

- you are less than me and I am praying you find your way.
- I feel sorry for you, you are lost.

I would rather we all pray for each other's well being with love, rather than someone find one's way. This is a generalization, not an accusation.

God bless you Jason.... and I mean this with love.

I hope that folks are praying for me. Why? for whatever reason that I cannot see or allow myself to see that they can. That doesn't make that person more and me less, just conveys they love me and thier obedience. For me, I'd pray that you will see the truth, seek the truth and find the truth. I have no questions here, have tried to answer yours. Somone offering prayer offends you as well? It's to bad you are not open as you are asking others to be, or at least it seems.

It would be alot easier if you would not twist things.

[Debbie]

Please explain how this PROVES anything....

How about you explain how it doesn't.

[Greyshades]

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Now, which of you cares to explain the relevance of the above to this conversation?

[Evanescence]

How about you explain how it doesn't.

Simple. The bible is NOT a science book or textbook.

JL said this:

Originally Posted by Jesuslove
You can't prove to me heterosexuals are born that way any more than I can prove homosexuals are born that way. I'm just saying look at science.

Your Bible verses only rpove what you believe....not anything about medical or science conditions. Science can't prove it... and neither can Bible verses.

Its alraight to say what you believe or don't believe but if we're gonna prove a medical issue, the Bible CANNOT be used. Its not a science book...

[Jesuslove]

I hope that folks are praying for me. Why? for whatever reason that I cannot see or allow myself to see that they can. That doesn't make that person more and me less, just conveys they love me and thier obedience. For me, I'd pray that you will see the truth, seek the truth and find the truth. I have no questions here, have tried to answer yours. Somone offering prayer offends you as well? It's to bad you are not open as you are asking others to be, or at least it seems.

It would be alot easier if you would not twist things.

Could you please tell me what in my post, to which you are responding, was I twisting?

[Greyshades]

Romans 1:18-32

Anybody? Or is that too pointed to be addressed in this discussion?

[Evanescence]

Romans 1:18-32

Anybody? Or is that too pointed to be addressed in this discussion?

Should have put the entire verse there...some of us are too lazy to look it up...

Looking now...

[Greyshades]

Or too lazy to scroll up a few posts...

[Evanescence]

Rom 1:29 Being filled4137 with all3956 unrighteousness,93 fornication,4202 wickedness,4189 covetousness,4124 maliciousness;2549 full3324 of envy,5355 murder,5408 debate,2054 deceit,1388 malignity;2550 whisperers,5588

Rom 1:30 Backbiters,2637 haters of God,2319 despiteful,5197 proud,5244 boasters,213 inventors2182 of evil things,2556 disobedient545 to parents,1118

Rom 1:31 Without understanding,801 covenant breakers,802 without natural affection,794 implacable,786 unmerciful:415


Sounds like some of my fellow Christians......Run! We're all doomed !!!!!!!!!!

[Evanescence]

Or too lazy to scroll up a few posts...

LOL...didn't see it.... :P

[Greyshades]

Convienient reply, and expected.

Completely sidesteps the issue at hand. I'm not here to talk about what's wrong with Western Christianity. I'm here to talk about this nonsense concerning homosexuality, and your willingness to "approve of those who practice".

Sorry, I guess the whole passage from 18-32 is too much to ask about. No problem. It seems like it might be too sharp edged for someone who condones or practices these sinful practices to even bear to try and digest.

[Evanescence]

OK...read it. I would be willing to bet that every one of us is guilty of SOME or MANY of the things listed in Pauls warning letter. The same with the LIST in Timothy that so many Christians cling to.

Myself included...I'm guilty of at least a few of these things...except homosexuality.

Who else here is bold enough to admit what their weakness are, based on the LIST Paul has provided as a warning???

Anyone?

I boast, whisper and debate...heck I'm debating now.....

I'm really meassed up...debating about debating....

Stoke the fires, I'm going to HELL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[Evanescence]

Convienient reply, and expected.

Completely sidesteps the issue at hand. I'm not here to talk about what's wrong with Western Christianity. I'm here to talk about this nonsense concerning homosexuality, and your willingness to "approve of those who practice".

Sorry, I guess the whole passage from 18-32 is too much to ask about. No problem. It seems like it might be too sharp edged for someone who condones or practices these sinful practices to even bear to try and digest.

Correct and correct.

But, I never condemned or condoned homosexuality.....so now YOU'RE a gossip....one of the no-no's from Pauls warning letter.

I merely said some people might be born gay. Thats all.

2nd, yep its too much to digest becuase the specifics of the passage belongs to all of us. One man is gay, the other baosts and the other hates. Paul does a good job of showing us we're ALL messed up. Without Christ, we're all doomed....

Unless Pual was over exaggerating to give a warning, much like a father to a child. Or he was just a Godly man with great ideas and opinions....ideas and opinions that we're not bound to.

Hard to tell....

Signed, The Fool

[Greyshades]

I'll admit to anything I've done. Confess it before the brethren, and before God. Then I'll repent. Doesn't mean I'm perfect. But you can bet that if I know something is wrong, and I see someone else doing it, I'm not going to condone what they're doing, no matter what they say the reason is.

You condone homosexuality because some scientist says he's found evidence that it might be a "condition" they are born with. I stress, "might".

Would you condone the bankrobber who steals your money, if he says he has to feed his children?

Would you condone the murderer who kills your mother, and then says he was born that way?

Would you condone the rapist who rapes your little sister, and then says it was because he was raised in an abusive family?

[Greyshades]

But, I never condemned or condoned homosexuality.....so now YOU'RE a gossip....one of the no-no's from Pauls warning letter.l

Saying they're born that way, is the same as condoning it. You don't have to march in a gay pride parade my man.

A gossip would run around telling others you said or did something. Careful chief. I can list plenty of Scripture that puts me right where I need to be concerning this.

The specifics of the passage deal with exactly what we're talking about. They're not as broad as you'd like to imply. But, I can understand your dismissal of something that is so obviously against what you're leaning towards. Re-read those verses, and don't take a single line out of context, and maybe you'll see it this time. Paul is talking about unbelievers, not believers.

I mean, hey, if you're not condoning, or condemning what is obviously sinful, aren't you somewhat like a wave tossed about? Stand your ground somewhere. It might make it easier for people to address something like this a little more straightforward. My issue is, you back up what your saying with the wisdom of men. Period. And in doing so, you dismiss God's Word. I don't care if you call it a text-book, or whatever, it's the Word of God, and it's very clear on this issue. And for you to say it doesn't apply is like saying peanut butter doesn't have any peanuts in it. God's Word applies to our entire life, and everything that goes on in this world.

[Evanescence]

I'll admit to anything I've done. Confess it before the brethren, and before God. Then I'll repent. Doesn't mean I'm perfect. But you can bet that if I know something is wrong, and I see someone else doing it, I'm not going to condone what they're doing, no matter what they say the reason is.

You condone homosexuality because some scientist says he's found evidence that it might be a "condition" they are born with. I stress, "might".

Would you condone the bankrobber who steals your money, if he says he has to feed his children?

Would you condone the murderer who kills your mother, and then says he was born that way?

Would you condone the rapist who rapes your little sister, and then says it was because he was raised in an abusive family?

A dishonest post...

Homosexuality is a victimless crime...yours posted are not.

I DO condone homosexuality if its a true perversion...but I'm not convinced it ALL is the case. Thats called GRACE and MERCY.....I give my fellow m,an the benefit of the doubt.

We still havn't defined homosexuality...anyone want to try?

[Evanescence]

Saying they're born that way, is the same as condoning it. You don't have to march in a gay pride parade my man.

A gossip would run around telling others you said or did something. Careful chief. I can list plenty of Scripture that puts me right where I need to be concerning this.

The specifics of the passage deal with exactly what we're talking about. They're not as broad as you'd like to imply. But, I can understand your dismissal of something that is so obviously against what you're leaning towards. Re-read those verses, and don't take a single line out of context, and maybe you'll see it this time. Paul is talking about unbelievers, not believers.

So, you're saying I'm a non-believer? Not sure what you mean here...

You can repent, but if your gentically programmed to be a certain way...a compltete change is difficult or impossible....

[Evanescence]

Question:

On several other posts here, ya'll said that kissing wasn't sex. Two teens can engage in passionate kissing and its OK. I'd say about 90% agreed with this notion. I did not.

Ok, so those of you that still feel this way, would you let your 15 year old boy kiss another boy....as described above?

That should be alright, not?

I'm curious to know what ya'll think....

[Greyshades]

Homosexuality is a victimless crime...yours posted are not.

Would you condone the child who was brought up adopted by a homosexual couple, and then chooses that lifestyle for himself?

Who's the victim there? What if that child didn't have this "condition" you're holding on to, and was instead swayed by the sins of the "parents" he was raised by?

[Greyshades]

So, you're saying I'm a non-believer?

Not at all. The Scripture is plain. It shows that homosexuality is a sin. It goes on to describe how this sin permeates the entire being of the man, and leads him further and further from God.

Kinda like how we have a gay counter-culture today, because no one has stood up and said it's wrong. Instead, our country condones it, and makes way for it to become "normal".


I think it's good to give your fellow man the "benefit of the doubt", you're supposed to. Again, you don't have to like someone, you just have to love them. Grace and Mercy are God's stuff. Not ours. You can claim them all you want, but both are unmerited gifts to us personally, not something you can give out. Sure, you can live a good life, guided by grace and remembering His mercy. But that still doesn't excuse you from denying His Word, and standing on a side that is wrong.

[Jesuslove]

Would you condone the child who was brought up adopted by a homosexual couple, and then chooses that lifestyle for himself?

Who's the victim there? What if that child didn't have this "condition" you're holding on to, and was instead swayed by the sins of the "parents" he was raised by?

I am not fond of your analogy. Most gays I know were raised by heterosexuals. And I know homosexuals that have raised heterosexual children. Homosexual doesn't mean bad parent just like heterosexual doesn't mean good parent. Did you ever wonder how homosexuals are getting children to adopt? Did you ever think that these children being adopted by homosexuals were taken from dysfunctional heterosexual households?

[Greyshades]

I am not fond of your analogy. Most gays I know were raised by heterosexuals. And I know homosexuals that have raised heterosexual children. Homosexual doesn't mean bad parent just like heterosexual doesn't mean good parent. Did you ever wonder how homosexuals are getting children to adopt? Did you ever think that these children being adopted by homosexuals were taken from dysfunctional heterosexual households?

It's not really an analogy.

And yes, I did think about that. It's great to get those kids out of those homes. But that's not solving anything, and it doesn't make the homosexual lifestyle right. Did you ever think that being homosexual, and raising a child in that family might also be viewed as dysfunctional?

I'm not saying you're not good with kids, and that you don't understand how to care for a child. That's a whole 'nother issue. Anyone can learn to be a good parent. Good parents raise up good parents.

I understand what you mean, when you speak of "saving" those kids. Good job, but it doesn't gain you entrance to heaven. A sinful lifestyle, no matter how many good deeds you pile up, is the determining factor when that lifestyle has "stored up wrath to be revealed in the coming judgement.".

It's sad to see how our culture has turned into this "pat 'em on the back, give their lifestyle a "sickness" name, and tell them everything will be okay" mentality. It's just this approach, both in day-to-day life, and with sharing God's Word, that has sunk us deeper and deeper.

It's gotta be hard for someone to seem like they are so against you. And I know how I'm coming across right now. I know I said earlier on, "I don't care how that makes you feel.", but the truth is, you've been lied to, you bought it, and now they're giving you more reason to stay trapped in it.

I don't expect that I'm the one who is gonna "prove it" to you. But if I'm on the watchtower, and I see danger, and say nothing, then it's my fault.

What do you think of the Scripture I posted? It's back one page. Romans 1:18-32 I'm curious to see how the gay church interprets that.

[Evanescence]

Would you condone the child who was brought up adopted by a homosexual couple, and then chooses that lifestyle for himself?

Who's the victim there? What if that child didn't have this "condition" you're holding on to, and was instead swayed by the sins of the "parents" he was raised by?

I think this is a dangerous combination...but yet, who am I to tell people who can or can't have kids. Its a tough call.

Yep, a kid raised by gays COULD turn gay...no question there. Some gays DO encourage experimenting in sexuality....NOT GOOD.

But, the Govt should NOT intervene in such cases either. So all we can do is to complain about it.

Also, Christians and hetro-sexuals aren't doing a very good job of child rearing either, so should we take their kids away? I know some Jesus freaks who brainwash and control their kids thru guilt and intimidation...INSANITY.. ..should we take thier kids?

Its all a tough call....I dont have all the answers....I don't want to.

[Evanescence]

Now another tough question:

So, we're supposed to do the right thing and condemn what is clearly wrong? Like, I am supposed to condemn and speak out against gays because the Bible says so. I am essentially in the wrong for this.

But, I am not convicted that all gay people are doing wrong because they can't help it...they're possibly born gay.

But, we have a crisis in the church where people are NOT condemning President George W. Bush who has clearly lied and killed for a false reason. There's a host of things we can PROVE about this man...things on good 'ol Paul's list of grivances and warnings......BUT YET, people in the church REFUSE to believe it and will not speak out against him.

They're not convicted of his wrong doing.

So, what's the difference?

I'm ALLLLLLL....ears.

[Jesuslove]

Now another tough question:

So, we're supposed to do the right thing and condemn what is clearly wrong? Like, I am supposed to condemn and speak out against gays because the Bible says so. I am essentially in the wrong for this.

But, I am not convicted that all gay people are doing wrong because they can't help it...they're possibly born gay.

But, we have a crisis in the church where people are NOT condemning President George W. Bush who has clearly lied and killed for a false reason. There's a host of things we can PROVE about this man...things on good 'ol Paul's list of grivances and warnings......BUT YET, people in the church REFUSE to believe it and will not speak out against him.

They're not convicted of his wrong doing.

So, what's the difference?

I'm ALLLLLLL....ears.

Condemning GWB would be like condemning ourselves (excluding you and I), as the conservative base, many of which are on this site have loyally stood by Bush. And you can't blame the gays for this one. You know they hate Bush (no pun intended).

[Greyshades]

But, we have a crisis in the church where people are NOT condemning President George W. Bush who has clearly lied and killed for a false reason. There's a host of things we can PROVE about this man...things on good 'ol Paul's list of grivances and warnings......BUT YET, people in the church REFUSE to believe it and will not speak out against him.

They're not convicted of his wrong doing.

So, what's the difference?

I'm ALLLLLLL....ears.

I hear ya. Now, the GWB issue is another thing, but for the sake of conversation (and so you see that I'm not just trying to 'hate' on you)...

As Christians, we are told to pray for those in authority. I understand where you come from, where you also point out the law of the land, and that it puts power, supposedly, in our hands regarding these issues. Now, is it easier, from a personal level, to stress yourself over the current leadership and it's policies, or is it easier to pray for the whole nation, and plead with God about our nations need for Him?

You know? I mean, I applaud those who are willing to stand up for issues. And you do, quite often, whether you're right or wrong ;). But, the one thing I notice about especially message boards, is that people want to tear one another to pieces over small issues, they want to be right, and convince everyone else... but no one is actually doing anything but talking about it.

That's something that has to be considered. When it comes to a discussion on a lifestyle choice, and hoping to help someone learn what God has said about it, we can actually accomplish at least the sowing of a good seed. When it comes to issues involving the state of our "union", we should not only be discussing these things, but looking outside these threads for ways to implement the ideas.

Everybody wants to change the world. We follow the only One who ever did. He created it, then when things were wrong, He stepped in and showed us how to fix it. Wouldn't we be wise to do the same?

[Jesuslove]

You know? I mean, I applaud those who are willing to stand up for issues. And you do, quite often, whether you're right or wrong ;). But, the one thing I notice about especially message boards, is that people want to tear one another to pieces over small issues, they want to be right, and convince everyone else... but no one is actually doing anything but talking about it.

Not me. You see I'm vocal. I'm doing more than talking about it. I will be actively campaigning for change... for positive change in America... for Barack Obama. As a Christian, I am committed to putting him in office because I know he is the better choice for our country. We cannot afford another Bush (McCain) administration.

[Greyshades]

You're only offended if you take it personally. And if you take typed text personally, I can't help you.

I didn't include you in that, because you are standing up for something that is wrong (homosexuality).

As far as voting for "change" in our political process. Great! Your lifestyle choices don't stop you from doing that, and I'm glad to hear it.

Have you looked into Obama's stance on abortion? How about the major moral issues we face? I hope you have, and that your decision is not just based on some fancy speeches. Fancy words beguile many people. I just hope you, and anyone else voting does their homework. By the way, voting, is not campaigning for change. It's casting a lot.

But, that's another issue, and it belongs in a completely different section of these boards.

The issue is homosexuality. Bridged off into the realm of man's wisdom, that is, science. Both of which are in question.

Still haven't got an interpretation of Romans 1:18-32 from you.

[Jesuslove]

You're only offended if you take it personally. And if you take typed text personally, I can't help you.

I didn't include you in that, because you are standing up for something that is wrong (homosexuality).

As far as voting for "change" in our political process. Great! Your lifestyle choices don't stop you from doing that, and I'm glad to hear it.

Have you looked into Obama's stance on abortion? How about the major moral issues we face? I hope you have, and that your decision is not just based on some fancy speeches. Fancy words beguile many people. I just hope you, and anyone else voting does their homework. By the way, voting, is not campaigning for change. It's casting a lot.

But, that's another issue, and it belongs in a completely different section of these boards.

The issue is homosexuality. Bridged off into the realm of man's wisdom, that is, science. Both of which are in question.

Still haven't got an interpretation of Romans 1:18-32 from you.

Turst me, I am very intelligent and base my vote on several issues. McCain doesn't have a monopoly on moral issues, by any means.... just look at his ongoing support for this immoral war.

[in hiding]

Nobody here said that homosexuality is a greater sin than the other things listed. That's what you and JL aren't getting.

someone stated, "My issue all along is why do Christians single out homosexuality...I find it a bit unusual, maybe even homophobic that gays are singled out among this group.". I provided my view to that statement. And please, don't take a one phrase answer to be my viewpoint of a complicated issue. and say I don't understand something, especially when I didn't offer my viewpoint of homosexuality; I offered my view of why christians seem to single out homosexuality.

[Evanescence]

someone stated, "My issue all along is why do Christians single out homosexuality...I find it a bit unusual, maybe even homophobic that gays are singled out among this group.". I provided my view to that statement. And please, don't take a one phrase answer to be my viewpoint of a complicated issue. and say I don't understand something, especially when I didn't offer my viewpoint of homosexuality; I offered my view of why christians seem to single out homosexuality.

They DO...I se it all th time...maybe not here...or maybe they DO here but are subtle about it...or hide it, I do not know. I do know I see it all the time...even among NON-believers....there is hatred.

Heck, some chruches are teaching that gays should be stones, dragged behind cars anf the like. Its insanity.

But yet, they have all sorts of ilk in their closet...maybe even WORSE than the gays.....but yet condemn. It not only isn't right...it makes the chuch look bad.

Shall we talk about Fred Phelps?

[Evanescence]

Turst me, I am very intelligent and base my vote on several issues. McCain doesn't have a monopoly on moral issues, by any means.... just look at his ongoing support for this immoral war.

I agree with you...but lets not have this debate get weird from politics. I only brought up GWB becuase I had to....and of course, the Bush apologists and Govt sympathizers refuse to answer the question....

However, it was just an anology...

[danbos]

But, Dan are you sure you are under the same judgement as others?

Could it be that God is so just and righteous that he judges according to each persons situation? I'm assuming hotheaded people run in your family?

I've seen this in children....kids at age 5-6 with BAD tempers...just like their fathers. Once they are of age, are they under the same judgement as others?

I do not know...but I have my doubts. God will judge each person according to their situation and circumstance. I think there's biblical evidence for that....but I'm not going hunting for it, just so someone can try to trump it with soemthing else...

Well, this all depends on what you're trying to say.

If you're saying, well I was born that way so it doesn't really matter, then I would disagree with you. If I am constantly fighting my bad temper, yeah, I can see that God would judge according to my situation. But I believe the same thing hold true for homosexuality. I don't think God will judge according to their situation if they believe that, by living in the sin of homosexuality, they are doing God's will and everything is fine. I think there's a big difference here between, so to speak, "being gay" and actively practicing homosexuality.

[in hiding]

They DO...I se it all th time...maybe not here...or maybe they DO here but are subtle about it...or hide it, I do not know. I do know I see it all the time...even among NON-believers....there is hatred.

Heck, some chruches are teaching that gays should be stones, dragged behind cars anf the like. Its insanity.

But yet, they have all sorts of ilk in their closet...maybe even WORSE than the gays.....but yet condemn. It not only isn't right...it makes the chuch look bad.

Shall we talk about Fred Phelps?

I'm well aware they do and it's very sad...one other thing...let's please not talk about fred phelps in the same sentence as church and give him any credit or acknowledgment for his brand of hate :) I'm embarrassed every time i hear the word baptist church associated with what he says.

[Evanescence]

I'm well aware they do and it's very sad...one other thing...let's please not talk about fred phelps in the same sentence as church and give him any credit or acknowledgment for his brand of hate :) I'm embarrassed every time i hear the word baptist church associated with what he says.

Agreed...its not even in the same league....well it might be at times. I do know some REALLY radical chruches that agree with him.

BTW- If you want to know how warped and dishonest people are about this...go to his site godhatesfags dot com. they have this section where they explain medically why homosexuality and sodomy is so unclean and dirty etc etc. Its a big pile of garbage....

[middletree]

someone stated, "My issue all along is why do Christians single out homosexuality...I find it a bit unusual, maybe even homophobic that gays are singled out among this group.". I provided my view to that statement. And please, don't take a one phrase answer to be my viewpoint of a complicated issue. and say I don't understand something, especially when I didn't offer my viewpoint of homosexuality; I offered my view of why christians seem to single out homosexuality.

I didn't say you don't understand homosexuality. I said you and others don't understand that nobody here is condemning gays. At least, the content of your posts indicates you don't get that.

[Greyshades]

I didn't say you don't understand homosexuality. I said you and others don't understand that nobody here is condemning gays. At least, the content of your posts indicates you don't get that.

I'll second that.

Pay attention! I never said anything about hating anyone, nor condemning the person. I said the lifestyle is wrong... Biblically wrong, which translates in any doggone language to: Sinful.

It doesn't matter how you wanna fry this egg, sunny side up, over easy... it's still a fried egg.

Let me be clear. When I have said: "I don't have to like you, but I have to love you", I'm not saying it to try and add a little sugar to the medicine. I'm saying it because, if I didn't care about someone making wrong choices, I'd simply let them burn in them. What I see, is that the choice to practice homosexuality has become accepted in the mainstream, thus, the community it produced has searched for every way they can to push it's agenda, and make it visible. Part of the reason for this is the alienation, and the bashing this community has received. Most of it at the hands of intolerant wolves in sheep's clothing.

But I want to make one thing clear to the ones who jump right to the "you're intolerant" card. That's no different than the race card or any other "talk to the hand" card, it's just another easy way to sidestep the issue without addressing the truth about it.

The gay culture is no different from any other group of people in this respect. When they're being confronted about this, they call the confronter "intolerant", and simply dismiss them. Which is the exact definition of intolerance. So, be clear on this, you cannot simply revert to an intolerance plea, if that is what you yourself are doing in reverting to it.

I just want God's Word to be discussed on this issue, because no matter what any of you say, it is the final Word on all of it. Like it or not, you know it's true.

So, yet again, for the third time now...

What do you think of Romans 1:18-32? What is the gay church's interpretation of it?

[Evanescence]

I'll second that.

Pay attention! I never said anything about hating anyone, nor condemning the person. I said the lifestyle is wrong... Biblically wrong, which translates in any doggone language to: Sinful.

It doesn't matter how you wanna fry this egg, sunny side up, over easy... it's still a fried egg.

Let me be clear. When I have said: "I don't have to like you, but I have to love you", I'm not saying it to try and add a little sugar to the medicine. I'm saying it because, if I didn't care about someone making wrong choices, I'd simply let them burn in them. What I see, is that the choice to practice homosexuality has become accepted in the mainstream, thus, the community it produced has searched for every way they can to push it's agenda, and make it visible. Part of the reason for this is the alienation, and the bashing this community has received. Most of it at the hands of intolerant wolves in sheep's clothing.

But I want to make one thing clear to the ones who jump right to the "you're intolerant" card. That's no different than the race card or any other "talk to the hand" card, it's just another easy way to sidestep the issue without addressing the truth about it.

The gay culture is no different from any other group of people in this respect. When they're being confronted about this, they call the confronter "intolerant", and simply dismiss them. Which is the exact definition of intolerance. So, be clear on this, you cannot simply revert to an intolerance plea, if that is what you yourself are doing in reverting to it.

I just want God's Word to be discussed on this issue, because no matter what any of you say, it is the final Word on all of it. Like it or not, you know it's true.

So, yet again, for the third time now...

What do you think of Romans 1:18-32? What is the gay church's interpretation of it?

They probably ignore it....

Some people in the Christian church do NOT take Paul's writings seriously or with as much authority as Christs. fact is, we can't agree on how much authority Paul has.

Now I know your gonna dig up a Bible verse about God inspired this and that...and thats great, but I guarantee you that I can find at least 1 if not 10 things in each of lives that we DO NOT do that Paul says to do. So we all cherry pick..and I don't know where the fine line is....or how much authority to give Paul.

I guess it comes down to two things. Either God has a LOT more grace than we think he does...or he has a LOT LESS. If its the later, we're all in deep doo-doo....

I will still stick with the blief that some people are born with a defect that makes them gay....on a severe level. Pervs are all around us...gay and straight...and I will stand up and say that they're in the wrong. But, I will also say that God judges accordingly and those born gay are not judged in the same light as others....

I'll also concentrate on myself and my problems...

[Greyshades]

I understand.

And I'll say that it's the issue of Scriptures and their "weightiness" in each person or groups doctrine that causes this type of "we'll agree to disagree" problem.

Nothing gets solved. And these discussions end up being completely pointless.

Homosexuality is a sin. It's not a worse sin than others, it's a sin just like anything else.

The laws here on earth might give an offender a lesser sentence simply because some scientist did some research and said that it's possible that the guys brain was malformed... but God's laws do not bend to such men.

Be it Paul, or be it Moses. The truth is plain. God abhors sexual immorality. That is, He hates it. If He hates it, then we must hate it with a righteous hate that stands up for the truth, and not beat around the bush with the arguments that it's beyond their control.

We all make mistakes. I've admitted it, you've admitted it. It's part of who we are, and it's one more thing that reveals the depth of God's love for us. Those who dwell in a sinful state, but are constantly reaching out for God will hopefully be convicted, by the Spirit, in that perfectly due season. Then, they'll repent and see how much God really can love them. Otherwise, they'll give way to the seductions of false teachings, and continue to have their ears tickled right up to the seat of judgement. Listen, look up all the Scriptures you want, and then tell me all about how most people don't do them. That's also a part of our nature, especially Western Christianity. But that still doesn't change the truth of God's Word, nor make it of any less importance. That's a bad place to reason on those things, because you base the authority of these things on the outcome you see around you. If we tried to base any Evangelism on how we live our lives, sadly, most of us would fail quite miserably. What you're saying is not something to be passed off, it should be a wake-up call.

But those who are fashioning God to be an overlooker of such sin, on any grounds they may deem important outside of Scripture, are creating their own God, and bordering on becoming both immoral and idolators. Just because someone accepts Christ, doesn't change the justice of God. He must be just and He must be holy and perfect in that justice, or He is not just.

[in hiding]

I didn't say you don't understand homosexuality. I said you and others don't understand that nobody here is condemning gays. At least, the content of your posts indicates you don't get that.

i never said anyone here was condemning gays. i said that IF christians do condemn them, it may be b/c of x and y. Please show me, in this thread where I said that people on this forum are condemning gays...you can't b/c it's not there. The first post I made in this thread was the one you quoted.

[Evanescence]

Well the million dollar question now is:

If a person is 100% convicted that they are born gay and cannot be with the opposite sex...and have sincerely tried....but have decided through prayer and conviction that being gay is what God wants them to do....and they are a Christ follower, born again....can they live a life in Jesus and inherit the kingdom of heaven?

How much does conviction play in a person's life...and how does it equate with God's grace?

I do not know the answer.....but would lean toward YES.

[Greyshades]

Can I add 2 cents to that million?

The prayer and conviction part. First, prayer is good, but must be coupled with God's Word to truly have a revelation. I know, people's experiences differ, but God's Word has the answer to this question clear as day.

Second, conviction. We've got to define this I think. I'm leaning on the conscience part. The part that God put there, that knows right from wrong. Now, carnal conviction is easily swayed when you are hearing "it's okay", and "you were born that way". Wouldn't you say?

To answer plainly, based on what the Bible says... No. Because the Word is very clear, and does not make any distinctions. It says no homosexual. Not some, not just these and not these. Same way it is with all the rest in that list.

I do know God's grace and mercy are unfathomable. But, they cannot be out of line with what His Word says. If this was an issue we needed to separate into different divisions, I'm sure Jesus would have left us something that would apply. Be it a parable... etc. I don't think Jesus needed to say anything about it, because the truth about it was already known.

Right now, all I see is the wheat and tares. But, that doesn't just apply to someone who is homosexual. I think you know what I mean though.

Conviction is essential to understanding God's grace. Think about it like this. If you are a sinner, and I simply tell you God loves you and sent His Son to die for you, it's not gonna make much sense. Why? What did I do that somebody had to die for? It's when you understand the Law that required such a penalty, that you see the fullness of grace present in that sacrifice. Make sense?

The problem here is, there's no more sacrifice for willful striving. So now, we work to convict of sins even present in professing Christians, because all they ever got was grace. They never have understood the work of the Law to expose the need for it, so it's taken for granted.

Again, another subject. Just wanted to try and clarify my thinking anyway.

[Evanescence]

OK...I hear ya....and in theory you are right.....

But the WORD is subject to interpretaion which affects conviction. So one person is guilty of homosexuality...in anothers eyes...the nxt person guilty of being worldly in another.

Abut once a month I enjoy a drink on a Sat night...I get relaxed and catch a buzz. It makes me creative. But, to some, I'd be a drunk.

If a wife and his wife have a healthy sex life...but to some, be pigs and guilty of sodomy. To them, like you the Word trumps conviction...they'd convicted, but doing no wrong.

One person's sin is another's pleasure or normal life....

So, WHO'S definition do we go by? How do we decypher scripture and conviction?

You see what I am saying?

[Greyshades]

I do.

As far as your life, and what you talk about above, that's one thing. Here's another place I'm leaning with this:

Any man who breaks these laws, and teaches others to do the same...

That's a dangerous place to be. I spoke about the issue on message boards of simply arguing to win an argument, and then nothing ever really gets accomplished. Now, consider this as well: If we sit here and debate this, but no one steps in and heavily weighs in on the importance of God's Word, quotes the Scriptures, and points to the clear cut truth, then what is the casual browser to take from it?

If we just give up on a point, and let it seem like it's not important, and don't make sure that we do all we can do be ambassadors of God and His Word, we might as well hang a sign on our neck that says "I'm a Sunday Christian", or "I fit all the stereotypes!".

I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to push a doctrine, nor am I offering any interpretation of what those verses mean in today's world. I'm simply pointing to the writing "on the wall" and saying, "Look, this is what God has always said about this!"

I do my best to stay away from men's interpretations. The 'ol "be Berean" theory. While I understand what you are saying, I still do not see how someone can't simply read those passages and take them at face value.

There's really not much interpreting needed in them.

[Evanescence]

I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to push a doctrine, nor am I offering any interpretation of what those verses mean in today's world. I'm simply pointing to the writing "on the wall" and saying, "Look, this is what God has always said about this!"


Right. But couldn't anyone say the same about just about anything...from modest clothing to enjoying sports to drinking or smoking? even us on the Internet chatting is seen as sin to some...clear cut and non-negotiable. Trust me I have dealt with some radical types that can find EVERYTHING wrong and sinful with EVERYBODY.

I just do not know where the fine line is...

[Greyshades]

We should break those verses in Romans down then. Be it line by line, or group by group. "Study to show yourself approved"

But, before we decide on that, let's answer one more question:

Aside from any "conditions", can it be agreed that homosexual practices are immoral?

My answer would be yes. Not just on the base reasons though. I'd venture to go a little further with those reasons. The obvious is, of course, "God created them, man and woman...", and Jesus, "A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife...". Those are the obvious, and probably most quoted. I'm stepping a little further down the road, and this is just to get you thinking, nothing more. What happens if homosexuality is accepted, and we can travel into the future to see the results of it's widespread acceptance?

What happens if we allow our schools, who already teach immoral sexual concepts to our children, to teach on how homosexuality is "normal"? What then happens to the generations that grow up in those ages?

Think on this hypothetical: What if the tables end up turned, and heterosexuality somehow became the minority? (That's a loooong way from ever happening, and in my opinion, He'll be back before it ever gets close, but hypothetically)

Now, I know, I'm getting out in left, or perhaps right field with this, but bear with me. This next one is not meant to imply that this would be what I wanted... But, what if the homosexual community, all of them, globally, were given their own nation. The borders were closed, and they all lived together, each and every single person homosexual. How long do you think that country would be around before there was, literally, no one left? I would venture to say... one generation, because there is no reproduction.

That, is my biggest "scientific" point about homosexuality.

God said, "increase in number and fill the earth.". (Gen. 8:1) In other words, "Reproduce, and populate this place I've given you". How can the homosexual community fulfill this? They cannot. The very choice they make prevents them from fulfilling the intention of humanity on this earth. Because they choose same-sex partners, they cannot do what God asks even from the start.

The first definition the American Heritage Dictionary gives for "desolate" is: "devoid of inhabitants". Now, I'm not trying to say that this was what Daniel was talking about, but if homosexuality is a sin, then it can also be called an abomination. Catch my drift?

I agree that there are many "fine lines" that are crossed, disregarded, smeared, etc... But, again, I'm not doing any interpreting of the Scriptures we already brought up in Romans. If they cannot be read, and understood for what they say right at face value, then I think we should, collectively, study them right now.

I cannot think of a more proper way for Christians to settle an issue, than for them to all read the Scriptures, and discuss what God is saying to them.

[Evanescence]

Nah, I've done this too many times...read all those verses long ago....studied it several times. And don't really have time to dig into it. Ya'll can if you want to. It might be a good topic for the WORD forum...

The topic isn't whether its moral but a scientific study on whether its genetic. you can either believe it, or not. Here's soem other stuff/facts about it....take it for what its worth.

Its a study on testosterone in men noticed in ring finger lengths....very interesting.

From:

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html


Do a person's fingers reveal their sexual
orientation?

YOUR early life as a fetus may have influenced your sexuality as an adult--and your fingers tell part of the story. Researchers in California have used relative finger lengths to show that sexual orientation is partly determined by events in the womb.

In animals, prenatal exposure to the male sex hormone testosterone seems to influence sexual orientation. But it is not easy to measure fetal hormone levels in humans. One indirect way is to look at the size of a person's fingers. In women, the index finger, called the second digit or 2D, is about the same length as the ring finger, 4D. In men, the ring finger is often considerably longer, leading to a lower 2D:4D ratio. This sex difference is clear from infancy, and researchers attribute it to masculinising hormones during fetal development.

Marc Breedlove and his colleagues at the University of California at Berkeley wanted to know if gay people had different finger length ratios from straight people, so they surveyed 720 adults during street fairs in San Francisco. The researchers collected information about gender, age, sexual orientation, handedness and older siblings. They also carefully measured the lengths of the volunteers' fingers.

They found something striking in gay women: their index to ring finger ratios resembled those of heterosexual men. This suggests that at least some lesbian women were exposed to higher than average levels of male hormones before birth.

What they found in men is less clear-cut. The 2D:4D ratio in gay men was not significantly different from that in straight men. But a series of studies in the 1990s had shown that the more older brothers a boy had, the more likely he was to be gay, so the researchers sorted the volunteers according to numbers of older brothers. They found that all the men who had two or more older brothers had significantly smaller 2D:4D ratios. "It was a big surprise to me that the finger measures would follow the epidemiology so closely," says Breedlove.

The findings suggest that homosexuality is partly due to higher levels of prenatal testosterone in men as well as women, he says. But they also show that fetal hormones alone don't determine sexuality. First-born males have indistinguishable 2D:4D ratios, whether they are gay or straight, yet some first-born males are gay. So other factors clearly come into play, says Breedlove.

To some researchers, the idea that gay men are "hypermasculinised" seems counterintuitive. John Manning of the University of Liverpool has found the opposite in gay men: that their finger ratios veer more towards the feminine. He suspects that both very low and very high levels of testosterone in the womb could produce homosexuality. "There may be more than one phenotype of male gays," he says.

Manning also wonders if Breedlove's data may have been slightly muddied because the research did not take account of ethnicity. He has found big population variations in 2D:4D ratios. "The geographical differences swamp the sex differences," says Manning. "There's more difference between a Pole and a Finn than between a man and a woman."

Interview with Marc Breedlove

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/archive/092200/cover1_092200.html

We did not find a difference between gay and straight men in ring-to-index-finger ratios, but we did find a more masculine ratio in men who had more than one older brother when compared to men who had no older brothers, which suggests that the more older brothers you have, the greater your testosterone exposure in the womb. This is especially interesting because there are a lot of data sets that look at men’s sexual orientation and number of older brothers, and all of them show that gay men tend to have more older brothers than the rest of the population. For the rest of the population, the ratio is 106 brothers to 100 sisters, whether older or younger. In our survey, gay men had 140 older brothers for every 100 older sisters, but for younger brothers and sisters, for gays the figure is also 106 to 100, as with the rest of the population.

Blanchard estimates that about fifteen percent of the men who are gay in North America are gay because they have older brothers. If their mother had had fewer boys before them, they would be straight today. Fifteen percent is a significant number. And think of it politically. Why on earth should people have hundreds of fewer legal rights and be unable to marry the person they fall in love with just because their mom had sons before them?

[Jesuslove]

What happens if we allow our schools, who already teach immoral sexual concepts to our children, to teach on how homosexuality is "normal"? What then happens to the generations that grow up in those ages?
I don't think that teaching children to treat all people with respect will sway a heterosexual to become homosexual. That's like saying if gay love were accepted by mainstream society, you might be swayed to jump ship.


But, what if the homosexual community, all of them, globally, were given their own nation. The borders were closed, and they all lived together, each and every single person homosexual. How long do you think that country would be around before there was, literally, no one left? I would venture to say... one generation, because there is no reproduction.

First of all, putting them all in one country would be a little like a Hitler social experiment gone wrong. First, who's to say all gays would want to give up their family and friends to move to this type of "leper colony"? And your assumption that the nation would be extinct is just wrong. I know of men who have acted as sperm donors for lesbians in order to have children.

God said, "increase in number and fill the earth.". (Gen. 8:1) In other words, "Reproduce, and populate this place I've given you". How can the homosexual community fulfill this? They cannot. The very choice they make prevents them from fulfilling the intention of humanity on this earth. Because they choose same-sex partners, they cannot do what God asks even from the start.
Back in the day, the earth didn't have over six billion people. Today, with over six billion people and not enough resources (including food, fuel, housing, etc) to go around, I don't see this command as still applying. Not every heterosexual couple is meant to be or capable of being parents either. Heterosexuality isn't a prerequesite to good parenting; we all know that. Is it possible that homosexuality is God's way of population control?

[Evanescence]

Schools shouldn't be talking about sexual orientation...nor anaimal rights OR religion.....they're all dangerous issues and topics...



Reproduction? Yep, we're supposed to do it. But what aboutt he man/woman who is BORN sterile...can't have kids? Are they going to be judged by God?

Balance and grace...

[rossid]

Many of you do not like the AFA (American Family Association) or Focus on the Family (Dr. James Dobson).

No problem.

AFA did send this out regarding sexuality:

http://www.afa.net/Petitions/Issuedetail.asp?id=324

[Evanescence]

I wonder where that was aired at...

A tough call...if we can see a man and a woman showing affection, then why not two men or two women?

The media cannot be regulated by RELIGION....but I do find it disturbing and confusing for kids....

A good reason for kids to not watch TV....

[Jesuslove]

I wonder where that was aired at...

A tough call...if we can see a man and a woman showing affection, then why not two men or two women?

The media cannot be regulated by RELIGION....but I do find it disturbing and confusing for kids....

A good reason for kids to not watch TV....

It's ironic that many people will object to this, but would think nothing of letting their kids watch violent gory movies.

[Evanescence]

It's ironic that many people will object to this, but would think nothing of letting their kids watch violent gory movies.

Correct!!!!!!

or watch WWE Monday Night RAW....

BYT- I'm trying to win Vince McMahon's Millions.....anyone else registered?

He's giving away 1 million dollars per week, 100K at a time on RAW....

[Debbie]

A tough call...if we can see a man and a woman showing affection, then why not two men or two women?

E - Should your kids come and tell you the news, they've crossed the line, however you would like to put it. I somehow do not feel your reaction would be the same.

The media cannot be regulated by RELIGION....but I do find it disturbing and confusing for kids....
The media needs some sort of regulation, that is for certain. It is total caos.

[rossid]

Does my 8 y.o. son watch the following?

This commercial - no

Gory movies - no

Smackdown - yes, with me

[Jesuslove]

Does my 8 y.o. son watch the following?

This commercial - no

Gory movies - no

Smackdown - yes, with me

Smackdown doesn't exactly remind me of enlightening Christian viewing. But to each, his own.

[Greyshades]

And don't really have time to dig into it.

This is a sad statement.

But you had plenty of time to go look up some things about people's fingers. I'm sure this pleases God.

I like how it talks about how they do their studies on animals. And goes on to say it's not easy to measure these levels in humans, and so they use an indirect way.

You left out this part:

Although it is possible that the maternal influence on finger growth of subsequent sons occurs after birth, a prenatal influence seems more likely because of the extensive physiological pairing of mother and fetus. The locus of the maternal 'memory' for previous sons, and the mechanisms by which fetal development of subsequent sons is altered, remain unknown.

In other words, it's just a theory. What's next? Do we trace them back to gay monkeys?

You seem to forget how often the world of science is allowed to say something, then do more research, and change the whole story. You say the Bible isn't scientific, yet it was the Bible that has led many researchers and explorers to seek the things they did.

Now, you're posting up a story about a single research. Done by a group who are proponents of accepting homosexuality. No one else has done a study like this. Yet, you put it up here as if it's truth. Trying again, to get us to accept what God has called a sin, as something normal.

Here's a quote from Mr. Breedlove, from 2000 on CNN:

"There is no gene that forces a person to be straight or gay ... I believe there are many social and psychological, as well as biological factors that make up sexual preference."

How's that fit? If there are many factors, why can't we "put our finger" on them?

[Greyshades]

That's like saying if gay love were accepted by mainstream society, you might be swayed to jump ship.

Not a chance. I'm not so easily swayed by public opinion. I rest my life upon God's Word, and I don't look for excuses to compromise it, because I know where that leads.




First of all, putting them all in one country would be a little like a Hitler social experiment gone wrong.

Read a little closer, and you'll see that I made the point about that right before I said it. P.S. Hitler would have simply gassed you, or put you in an overheated oven. In fact, that's what he did. If you want to use that comparison, please recognize the mercy I've extended in your comparison.

First, who's to say all gays would want to give up their family and friends to move to this type of "leper colony"?

You're the one who called it a leper colony. I won't even go anywhere with that.


And your assumption that the nation would be extinct is just wrong.

Prove it. While you're at it prove this science voodoo you guys keep referring to.



I don't see this command as still applying.

You obviously see a lot of God's commands as "not applying" to you. This comment is tell-tale of the culture you are a part of. That everyone should just play nice, and accept your sins.

Not me.

Not every heterosexual couple is meant to be or capable of being parents either. Heterosexuality isn't a prerequesite to good parenting; we all know that. Is it possible that homosexuality is God's way of population control?

Again, never said anything about parenting. Population control? Okay... you're getting a little out there now. Does murder, war, disease, famine... does that all fall into a population control thing too?

We have these perversions and problems because man brought sin into the world. With sin came all of the issues we face. All of the suffering, etc., is a result of living in a fallen world. This is why God has said He will create new ones.


The biggest problem I see, is the same one that has existed from the beginning of this thread:

You want to validate your sinful lifestyle by using the wisdom of men, and overlooking the truth of God.

That's just as much a sin as homosexuality. It's shameful to bear the name of Christ in mockery, and not give any heed to His words. It really makes you seem like children, whining for what they want.

I will not take what you say seriously because I see this as become an "endless debate".

And if you can't be respectful of your Maker enough to open your Bible yourself, here are some more verses for you:


Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:22-26

Here's to hope.

[Jesuslove]

Read a little closer, and you'll see that I made the point about that right before I said it. P.S. Hitler would have simply gassed you, or put you in an overheated oven. In fact, that's what he did. If you want to use that comparison, please recognize the mercy I've extended in your comparison.
Mercy? How about if someone suggested rounding up all Christians and sending them to an isolated island. How would you feel?


You're the one who called it a leper colony. I won't even go anywhere with that.
It would amount to a leper colony if we cast those different than ourselves to a segregated area.


You obviously see a lot of God's commands as "not applying" to you. This comment is tell-tale of the culture you are a part of. That everyone should just play nice, and accept your sins.
Let's face it, the world has changed greatly since Biblical times. The Earth is inhabited by far more people; too many people to logically be able to support. That's a reality.


The biggest problem I see, is the same one that has existed from the beginning of this thread:

You want to validate your sinful lifestyle by using the wisdom of men, and overlooking the truth of God..

No, that's not it at all. We don't know why some are homosexual and because of that, I choose not to pass judgement. I leave judgement for God.

I will not take what you say seriously because I see this as become an "endless debate".


We're here to debate. There is nothing wrong with a robust discussion of issues, both from a Biblical and scientific standpoint.

[Greyshades]

Mercy? How about if someone suggested rounding up all Christians and sending them to an isolated island. How would you feel?

That's what God's gonna do in the end anyway. So what do you think? The only difference is, the new earth will be our island, and the rest of you will be condemned. Those condemned will be the ones isolated, or, cut off. That's His Word.



It would amount to a leper colony if we cast those different than ourselves to a segregated area.

You're missing the point.



Let's face it, the world has changed greatly since Biblical times. The Earth is inhabited by far more people; too many people to logically be able to support. That's a reality.

It's a fantasy to think that God's Word does not still apply. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And His Word will not pass away. Ever read those? His Word will not pass away.




No, that's not it at all. We don't know why some are homosexual and because of that, I choose not to pass judgement. I leave judgement for God.

And God's judgement of homosexuality is clear in His Word. That they shall in no means enter the Kingdom of heaven.



We're here to debate. There is nothing wrong with a robust discussion of issues, both from a Biblical and scientific standpoint.

So then, why do you keep evading the Biblical things I bring up? Robust is for beef broth. You need to be wise enough to realize when things are the same as banging your head against a wall.

Give me your interpretation of Romans 1:18-32, or you are getting nowhere.

[VerbumReale]

It's ironic that many people will object to this, but would think nothing of letting their kids watch violent gory movies.


Ahh the classic liberal bait and switch trick of attempting to divert attention off a problematic issue by pointing out that some people are hypocritical or seem to have a double-standard (and in some cases a different standard than their's is enough to be considered as a double-standard).

[Greyshades]

Ahh the classic liberal bait and switch trick of attempting to divert attention off a problematic issue by pointing out that some people are hypocritical or seem to have a double-standard (and in some cases a different standard than their's is enough to be considered as a double-standard).

No doubt.

Careful, there are hooks and worms all over the floor in this one.

[Jason]

No doubt.

Careful, there are hooks and worms all over the floor in this one.

*hangs sign*

Gone fishin'.

[Evanescence]

No doubt.

Careful, there are hooks and worms all over the floor in this one.

No not really...just exposing the hypocrisy of the church which always seems to run so rampant, especially among radicals...

This is a sad statement.

But you had plenty of time to go look up some things about people's fingers. I'm sure this pleases God.

I like how it talks about how they do their studies on animals. And goes on to say it's not easy to measure these levels in humans, and so they use an indirect way.

You left out this part:


More guilt, control and intimidation....Please, take it somewhere else. You ASSUME too much. That article was in my wifes folder...she had to study it for school- for OT. It took me all of 20 seconds to find it.

I didn't leave out any parts...it wasn't an agenda...it was a report. You can do with it what you wish. But, you chose to push it back on me as if I was trying to make a point. I was not....I was just reporting.

It's a fantasy to think that God's Word does not still apply. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And His Word will not pass away. Ever read those? His Word will not pass away.



The Word is subject to interpretation and opinion....BELIEF.

Do you handle snakes in your church? Christ COMMANDS us to handle snakes...and even drink POISON. Do you? Maybe you're in danger of hellfire 'cause you don't follow the commands...

And God's judgement of homosexuality is clear in His Word. That they shall in no means enter the Kingdom of heaven.




So is a whole pile of other things on these LISTS that are in the Bible.

You on one of them?

This is why I didn't bother to mess around with it anymore...you can't debate or argue with fundamentalist menatality.

[Evanescence]

Does my 8 y.o. son watch the following?

This commercial - no

Gory movies - no

Smackdown - yes, with me

I know a bunch of ya'll think I'm a Liberal -anything goes, luke warm Christian etc etc. But, I would NEVER let my kid watch WWE...with or without me. They prolly wont even see TV or Internet till they're 10-12.

You do what you feel is right but WWE is HIGHLY violent and toxic, IMO...I should know, I grew up on it and it changed my outlook on life greatly. For the negative.

But, to each his own....

[Jason]

Do you handle snakes in your church? Christ COMMANDS us to handle snakes...and even drink POISON. Do you? Maybe you're in danger of hellfire 'cause you don't follow the commands...



Commands? I think you need to re-read Mark 16.

[Evanescence]

Commands? I think you need to re-read Mark 16.


Read it....its a command. So are dozens of other things in the Bible...but people cherry pick and have excuses why they do/don't do them.

The point is if we go by these lists for someones faults...we best check our crapbag at the door because we're on it too. None of us are exempt from these lists or the commands or the commandments....we all fall short. All of us.

[VerbumReale]

No not really...just exposing the hypocrisy of the church which always seems to run so rampant, especially among radicals...



.

Nobody is denying that their are hypocrites and double-standards but some people seem to want to suggest that the presence of hypocrisy throws out any sort of accountability. The hypocrisy card is a card that gets played when people simply have nothing to say or no argument to make so say they say "Oh yeah well a lot of people who don't like the commercial with the gay people watch wrestling!!! So there." As if that adds anything at all to the issue being addressed, and 99.9% of the time the hypocrisy card adds nothing.

[Jason]

Read it....its a command. So are dozens of other things in the Bible...but people cherry pick and have excuses why they do/don't do them.


Are you lacking grammatical skills today, E?

No commands there.

[Evanescence]

Nobody is denying that their are hypocrites and double-standards but some people seem to want to suggest that the presence of hypocrisy throws out any sort of accountability. The hypocrisy card is a card that gets played when people simply have nothing to say or no argument to make so say they say "Oh yeah well a lot of people who don't like the commercial with the gay people watch wrestling!!! So there." As if that adds anything at all to the issue being addressed, and 99.9% of the time the hypocrisy card adds nothing.


Sorry I disagree.

If we're talking about a topic..then yes...but if we're talking about condemning or finger pointing, then its applicable.

Someone would say that they don't let their kids watch horror movies...but watch WWE.

Someone might say they don't let their kid watch WWE but they watch UFC...

Someone might say that they won't let their kids watch Will and Grace or Queer eye, but they let them watch horror movies or WWE.

Its all the same....and I don't see anything wrong with talking about it...or defending an issue esp when someone is on a self-righteous high horse...which is a coomon theme among Christian Finger Pointers.

HOWEVER, it was not in this cae on this thread. I used it as an example....actually JL did. Its just keeps us in check.

[Evanescence]

Are you lacking grammatical skills today, E?

No commands there.


Outta time....gotta pull weeds with the wife...

Have fun with those snakes Jason....quick, look behind you!!!!!!!!!

[Howlin' Wolf]

what in the heck is this thread about now?

a bunch of dang jibberish and straw men.

[Evanescence]

Now we are condeming straw men?

They have rights too !!!!!!!!!

[Jesuslove]

Give me your interpretation of Romans 1:18-32, or you are getting nowhere.

There are multiple interpretations, not just one. Here's one I'll share.....

Some commentators (eg., Boswell 1980, p.109f; Vasey 1995, p.131f) speculate that the text does not condemn homosexual acts by homosexuals, rather "homosexual acts committed by heterosexual persons" (Boswell 1980, p.109), or heterosexuals who "abandoned" or "exchanged" heterosexuality for homosexuality (McNeil, 1993). Boswell argues that the conceptual modality (natural laws) which would provide the basis for the blanket condemnation of homosexuality did not exist prior to the Enlightenment era.

Another viewpoint is that Paul is condemning specific types of homosexual activity (such as temple prostitution or pederasty) rather than a broader interpretation (West 2005, p.3). West argues that Paul is speaking to a Gentile audience in terms that they would understand to show that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Another area of contention is the apparent reference to female homosexuality. Most interpreters assume that, due to the analogy with same-sex lust between males, that Paul is referring to female same-sex behavior. While definitely a strong possibility, this assumption is not conclusive, and it remains difficult to discern exactly what Paul meant by women exchanging natural intercourse for unnatural (Nissinen 1998, p. 108).

Both groups of opinion are dismissed by some biblical interpreters who maintain that "the most authentic reading of Rom 1:26-7 is that which sees it prohibiting homosexual activity in the most general of terms, rather than in respect of more culturally and historically specific forms of such activity" (Hilborn 2002, p.9; also Howard, 1996, p.50). A statement by the General Synod of the Church of England (Issues in Human Sexuality) illustrates a categorisation and understanding of homosexuality, claiming that in ancient times "society recognized the existence of those, predominantly male, who appeared to be attracted entirely to members of their own sex." (Issues in Human Sexuality para 2.16, lines 8-9) which almost parallels that of modern ideation. But the same study is careful to point out that "the modern concept of orientation has been developed against a background of genetic and psychological theory which was not available to the ancient world."(Issues in Human Sexuality, para 2.16, lines 16-18) Although some ancient Romans (i.e. doctors, astrologers, etc.) discussed congenital inclinations to unconventional sexual activities such as homosexuality, this classification fails to correspond to a modern psychological, biological and genetic distinction between homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual orientations (Brooten 1998, p. 242). In addition, the concept of sexual orientation as being separate from one's perceived masculinity or femininity (i.e. gender identity) did not take shape until the 19th century (Halperin 1990, p. 9).

[Howlin' Wolf]

hogwash!

what sexual acts outside of marriage are ever justifiable and excused?

Here is the point. Man is born a sinner. Homosexuality is a sin. Man is without excuse and in need of a savior.

Do I think some people are born gay? yes! Do I make excuses for them because they are born that way? NO! Nobody is exempt.

end of discussion.

[Debbie]

Nobody is exempt. End of discussion.

This thread was started to discuss the "Sceince of Sexuality". I have observed where no less than 50% of the comments were not specific to the thread topic, but more so toward the non sceintific orientation of sexuality. I am not comdemning anyone for the comments they've made.

It does seem, the conversation, as it always does, has ended up as it always has, thus, going round in circles.

If you were genuinely seeking help or the truth, as with any issue, you would be open to all of the wonderful people here that through their love, are sharing biblicaly what they know. Instead, some refuse to provide bibilical scripture to support their position but rebuke the Word and all that has been shared with them. If you are looking for acceptance on this message board community that it is okay to be gay, homosexual, lesbian etc etc, you will not find it. This doesn't mean if you are living the lifestyle that you are not loved.

Everyone excluding two that participated in this discussion are in agreement. Someone is wrong, is it you? Could itbe that all of these people are wrong and just two of you have it right? If a time comes where you are in need, like now, we are here and will be here for you.

The administrative staff appreciates those who uphold and trust the Word and do not falter, regardless of how much they love another person. Thank you for your efforts in this discussion. The time has come to end the conversation.

Blessings,
Debbie

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

[Debbie]

Someone graciously passed this article (http://www.christianitytoday.com/cl/2000/005/9.60.html) along to me, the discussion in this thread seemed like a good place for it, so I'll add it here.

Please, take the time to view it.